
(3D graphic courtesy of Silicon Valley Watcher)
So, last night I posted optimistically about the OSC's wide-ranging investigation into Karl Rove's Hatch Act violations and general overmixing of government and politics, and a whole bunch of commenters basically said that I had been totally punk'd, and the whole investigation is a sham to shield the White House from oversight and accusations of wrongdoing. Now, I will be the first to agree that Bloch's history at the OSC is not very encouraging, and a whitewash would not surprise me in the slightest, but the thing is, I don't think it will help the Republicans. If anything, I think it will make things worse.
I attempted to explain myself (rather poorly) in the comments of that post, refined and expanded on my argument a little more at my place, and now that I have (hopefully) a cleaner, more structured explanation, I'm rolling it out here.
Basically, my problem with the whitewash laments is that they don't distinguish between the three different types of outcomes for the OSC and congressional investigations, so I wanted to unpack those and talk about them individually.
The first type of outcome is administrative; i.e., termination or loss of security clearances. This is the only one that the OSC has control over; all Bloch can do is say that Rove doesn't need to lose his job or his clearances.
The second is criminal; i.e., referral to a prosecutor, and potentially fines or prison time as a result. Bloch has absolutely zero control over this, except insofar as he can gull Waxman, Conyers and Leahy into believing that he's on the case so they don't need to be. I suspect that they will be very skeptical about that – in fact, I would not be surprised if they ignore his investigation entirely as they proceed with theirs. As best as I can tell from the FDL legal eagles in the comments of my previous post, it doesn't sound like the OSC is entitled to any deference from them.
Finally, there is the political aspect; i.e., electoral losses and permanent minority status for the Republican Party. To me, this is the grand prize. Much as I would love to see Bush and all his criminal minions fired and/or locked up, I would love it even more if the Republicans rendered themselves so unelectable that they became unable to return their criminals to positions of power.
This is also where these investigations are the most damaging. The very existence of a comprehensive internal investigation into Rove gaming the system gives that narrative visibility and legitimacy, regardless of the administrative outcome. In fact, it's a lose-lose proposition for the Republicans, because the result will confirm that the Republicans are cheating, no matter what it is. If Bloch says he found wrongdoing, it confirms that the government has become overly politicized. But if he says Rove did nothing improper, in the face of all the evidence to the contrary, that confirms the exact same thing.
In fact, with the administration's credibility at rock bottom, a whitewash would actually be more politically damaging to the Republicans than an honest investigation. The same would also be true if the DC US Attorney sabotaged or slow-walked a criminal referral from one of the committees. The smart play would be for the Republicans to play it straight.
Scarecrow and Christy have also made persuasive cases for why even a creep like Bloch will be motivated do the right thing, but their arguments, and mine, depend on Bloch knowing what's good for him, and how many Republicans are blessed with that rare gift? But even if he does stay true to form, it's nice to know that it won't be any help.
(Thanks to montag and P J Evans for answering my stupid questions about congressional committees in the comments.)



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Eek!
oops – i’m out of the loop in this post so i’ll just lurk and follow along in the comments and learn a thing or 3….
Dan Rather is such a moron–choking up on Letterman.
eCAHNomics @ 3
That’s what you’re supposed to do when you have two strikes, right?
and KEITH IS STILL THE MAN!!!
Elliot Richardson would do the right thing.
Now we get to find out if Bloch is a total kool-aid drinker (whitewash the WH) or if he has enough sense to seek an antidote (do a true investigation with valid and coherent findings). THAT is the crux of the situation.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 7
Elliot Richardson DID the right thing. As did William Ruckelshaus. (as you know)
dakine01 @ 7
His past history in that office (and the Faith-Based Initiative one before it) suggests that he’s a True Believer.
A Judge Sirica for the 21st century would be nice.
continued from last thread —
SnarKassandra says
April 25th, 2007 at 6:11 pm
LS @
170
Okay, Moyers starting now on PBS – 9 CT.
OK. I turned it on. But we don’t know what we are watching or why. Is it about the press? or 9-11? or Iraq? What are we watching for?
Get Rove and you’ll get Cheney, Bush and the rest. Rove won’t take betrayal. He’s much, much smarter than Libby. Squeeze Rove hard enough and he’ll pop. But it’s got to be done soon. ‘Pardon’.
Hi Cassie. We’re watching a breakdown of how the media cooperated with the administration to lead us into war in Iraq.
I said this earlier but will repeat it here. Some blogger somewhere (haven’t a clue where I read this) said that you could determine if Bloch was a threat to Rove or an ally of Rove by the White House reaction. If a smear campaign suddenly appeared then you know that Rove’s machine is busy trying to discredit him.
The WaPo article about his expensive house sounds like a Rove story. If so, then get out the popcorn. Bloch takes down Rove; Rove takes down Bloch.
Who should “squeeze Rove”? How? About what? What does that have to do with Cheney or the pres? What’s supposed to happen? I don’t get it.
SnarKassandra @
12
continued from last thread —
Sorry Cassie, I added to my post – Moyer show is to tell how Press sold war in Iraq.
RonD @ 14
OK. I got that!
dakine01 @
8
Wrong tack. Assume the worse, watch his every move, place proof of burdon of wholesomeness on him.
We (America) owe him & them nothing at this point.
“Trust us”? You must be kidding.
solai @ 14
I think that was me, actually…
RonD @ 14
Are you the Ron who left comments on my blog?
From The General: http://patriotboy.blogspot.com…..stice.html
I am so far out of the loop about 9/11. I live in Manhattan. I also own an historic house (1817) 85 miles NW, where I always flew a U.S. flag. After 9/11 I took it down. There’s one main function of govt, which is defense. U.S. failed. Why should I be patriotic?
Gunga Djinn @ 18
I don’t think anyone does anymore. That’s the beauty of it.
Yes. I like everything I’ve seen you do.
This is my entry on Bloch from my scandals list:
Anything is possible but does this seriously look like the guy that will take out Rove?
Gunga Djinn @ 19
Oh absolutely. Use St Ronnie’s words on ‘em all: “Trust but verify.” And boy HOWDY do they hate to have his words thrown in their faces.
Eli,
Yes it was you. Astute observation. So, what do you think. Is he being slimed?
RonD @ 25
Thanks! You saw my personal blog too?
SnarKassandra @ 12
continued from last thread —
Moyers is exploring how the media behaved responded after 9/11 and their role in supporting vs reporting on the path to war.
Hugh @ 25
Only if he is being sacrificed for a greater good.
solai @ 27
I haven’t seen it yet…
vote is going on right now in House.
Snarkassandra 12,
It is Bill Moyers, “Buying the War”, and it’s about pre-war media, etc., very informative.
rwcole @ 16
First of all you get Rove into congressional hearings under oath. Like in the recent case of the AG.
LS @ 34
My cousin and I are watching. We almost never watch this channel. He wants to switch to comedy central.
Tidbits? Yes. I referenced you in a post of mine. As far as I’m concerned, you’re as credible as anyone, and more than a lot of others. What I like the most is, you don’t seem to assume thay anyone is smarter or more qualified than you. You think for yourself-and that’s good enough.
Eli @ 31
Bloch is too penny ante for anyone really to care about or bother sacrificing.
Can’t you just hear her practicing…
SnarKassandra @ 36
I understand that. If you have to switch, try to catch it again later. Good luck.
Hugh @ 37
No, I meant if *Rove* is being sacrificed to save The Party.
RonD @ 37
I know that a lot of people know more than I do and some are smarter. But if I keep asking questions and reading I will get to know as much as they do.
I am encouraged that Inglesias (?spelling) says Bloch has a fellow Reservist of his on the OSC team.
Everyone is waxing hot and strong about the appalling Republicans and hopes they will be reduced to a tiny rump. I do not recall the long-time democratic majority being particularly more honest, you know. I should feel a lot more optimistic if I were to hear about all the near-constitutional legislation the Democratic Majority intends to pass to prevent such wholesale exchange of career staff for political appointees, legislation to prevent “Signing Statements” except on very narrow grounds, legislation to limit the amount of money House members and Senators may spend on the elections, legislation to prevent Any President ever again becoming a dictator. Perhaps the democratic Majority might even suggest a re-jigging of the Constitution so that the US becomes a real democracy, which means a parliamentary one, the we can “throw the bums out” if we do not like them, all of them!
Always ask “Why?”. Unquestioned authority is never legitimate.
SnarKassandra @
36
Tell him it’s mental broccoli. It’s good for you, eat it; your mind will thank you years from now, even if your id doesn’t want to do it now.
No, uh, fence – I’m looking for a Tom Sawyer angle in this whitewash business.
Bushco v. honesty and integrity: never the Twain shall meet.
SnarKassandra @ 42
Cassie, I only wish I had been as informed as you are when I was your age. Ah, a different time, a different place. You are doing a great job…keep it up!
I told him he can have the remote for the next hour AND I will put away the dinner dishes when they dry.
Where are the naysayers who were complaining and wanting to cut funding/donations to PBS last week?
Here it is, the reason why PBS deserves funding: Moyers just spanked FRONTLINE for its bylined coverage of the run-up with NYT.
Real journalism doesn’t take sides; it exposes the truth.
House just passed the Iraq bill.
Moyers: Role of defectors’ influence on “reporters.” Me: Only a naif would believe a defector. They have more agendas than Carter has little pills.
Frank Probst @ 50
The one with the time lines?
SnarKassandra @ 48
Tell him it’s mental broccoli. It’s good for you, eat it; your mind will thank you years from now, even if your id doesn’t want to do it now.
Cassie, don’t ever let a guy have the remote. You know that!
These people still believe they can win by cheating. They live in the gone-ousphere. It will be an ineffective whitewash. Bloch is a tool. An anti-gay tool who is probably living in a tight little closet. Just like Unca Karl.
LoudounLib @ 47
And, Cassie, there are millions of people 40 years older than you, that don’t pay attention to one millionth of what you do. You go.
218-208, 2 Rs vote Yea, 12 Ds vote Nay, 1 each D & R vote present. Conference report approved
eCAHNomics @ 51
This may be a stupid question, but ….
What is the difference between a defector and a refugee?
Bloch will run an independent investigation of the White House when Condoleeza Rice marries Michael Moore.
Riesz Fischer @ 53
I will take the laptop into the bedroom while he is watching.
12 D’s vote Nay????
Frank Probst @ 50
13 D’s voted with the Republicans.
SnarKassandra @ 57
Simply put, defector “volunteers” or is tempted to leave country. Refugees are forced out of their country/town whatever.
Anyone know the names of the defecting Dems yet?
During the run-up to the Iraq invasion many of us were not taken in. How to explain why so many congress people voted for the attack?
A defector is an enemy soldier or government official that comes over to the other side…a refugee is just someone looking for safety.
SnarKassandra @ 57
Defectors have agendas. Refugees are fleeing for their lives. Chalabi was hardly a refugee, living a million $$ life in London.
I was a hurrican refugee during after Hurricane Jeanne in ‘04.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 64
They don’t listen to the same news we do.
solai @ 62
Are you sure they’re not refugees?
Eli @ 41
Bloch isn’t a “traditional” Republican. He’s a winger true believer. He’s only taking up any investigation apparently because Iglesias in a parting shot asked for one.
As for saving the party, even as I write, Republicans in the House are continuing to stand with Bush and are voting against funding the troops and doing everything in their power to prolong the Iraq war. Does this sound like the action of a party that wants to sacrifice anybody? If they are still sticking with Bush, then they are still willing to stick by Rove, no matter how crazy or destructive to them, their party, and our country this may seem to the rest of us.
dakine01 @ 56
Hooray! What a day.
LS @ 60
Better one of them was Mary Landrieu. Now that white people rule New Orleans she will vote the way of the Bush with confidence.
Hi, dakine- I had to flee Hurr. Charlie.
solai @ 63
I think some of them were not willing to vote for ANY funding for the war.
Well,neither stupid PBS station in GA that I have access to is showing the Moyers show.
I hate living in Red State America. Grrr.
Eli @ 69
Whatever they may be, refugees ain’t it.
Mary McCurnin @ 72
Landrieu’s Senate, this was House.
anangryoldbroad @ 75
This is a great program. They should put this on a channel that more people watch.
Hugh @ 69
That’s just fine with me. The longer they cling to the dubyatross, the better it is for us.
Oh yea. Geez. . . .
dakine01 @ 56
that interesting… 218 is the same number of ‘yea’s as the preconference house bill.… and the ‘no’s
picked uplost a few.hmmm. wonder which Rs voted yes and which Ds voted no.
CSPan3 Young Al Gore 3/25/99 Columbine High School
AP: House Passes Legislation That Would Order Bush to Begin Withdrawing Iraq Troops by Oct. 1
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/s…..5-21-32-35
Passage puts the bill on track to clear Congress by week’s end and arrive on the president’s desk in coming days as the first binding congressional challenge to Bush’s handling of the conflict now in its fifth year.
Ooh. Interesting. The 60 Minutes guy evades answering how the brass would have handled push-back about the Iraq War run-up.
But not unexpected. Just interesting to watch a guy one thinks they’ve been able to trust for decades get weasely and indirect…and in a painful way.
Rayne @ 49
Hi Rayne!
I’ve been wanting local NPR radio stations to end funding for NPR national news (and asking sponsors in the community to end their sponsorship), but not advocating boycotts of PBS.
I almost never watch TV, though… :)
[ducks]
Moyers: WHIG; followed by video clips of W war marketing group.
Go House of Reps!
RonD @ 73
So did I. Was living in Apollo Beach within 1/2 mile of coast, Zone A evacuation. about five days before, I got rooms in Plant City. About two hours after we got checked in, Charlie zigged ashore in Ft Myers. We wound up getting more of the storm in Plant City but since we lived in mandatory evac zone, we had no choice.
For Jeanne, we lost power early Sunday AM when tree took out pole in neighbor’s yard. We wound up going to Orlando Monday where some friends had a time share week and stayed with them. They’d ridden the storm out in Winter Haven where he was from then went over to their time share after. we come home Wednesday and got power back on Thursday.
It sounds like you live right down the street from me. I’m in Riverview.
deleted – redundant
Moyers: All evidence from weapons inspectors online for everyone to see nothing was there.
“Agendas” is a double plural. ‘Agenda’ IS plural; the singular is ‘agendum’.
That graphic hurts my eyes!
RonD @ 89
Lived. I’m in San Antonio since last June. Couldnt’ find jobs in Tampa area so moved out here where they seem even more scarce.
Reuters: House passes Iraq funds with 2008 withdrawal goal
http://www.reuters.com/article…..1620070426
Bush, who wants the war money, has promised to veto this bill because Democrats included a timetable for withdrawal, which would begin no later than October 1, with the goal of completing it six months later.
“This terrible chapter in our history must come to an end … enough is enough,” said Democratic Rep.James McGovern of Massachusetts, who argued for passing the funding bill with timetables for withdrawal.
Jeebus they are such a pack of venal, creepy liars. I mean we knew they did it all but it’s amazing to see it all assembled together (Moyers, that is).
dakine01 @ 56
Must be the Blue Dogs! ARGHHH!!!!
Some Dems might have held out because they knew they could, and they’ll press forward after the veto with their own additional “pork” to add votes for the next attack. That’s a big part of the game. That bothers me, but that is the way it is. Kucinich has pointed out that the troops will be funded, because of past bills. It’s like throwing out some food to a bunch of hungry dogs who fight over it.
maunga @ 92
It is a latin word?
No good deed goes unpunished.
kirk murphy @ 90
I know. I made a mis.. ..mis… . . mmmmistake.
SnarKassandra @ 78
You can get a write up & some preview vid at this link. PBS will also make the show available online (both full show & transcript) fairly soon after the broadcast:
Buying the War
CTuttle @ 97
I think it went down the same as last time.
Moyers: NYT story followed by Cheney on MTP citing it.
TeddySanFran @ 92
Obviously you’re wearing the wrong glasses.
If I had the Mad Skillz, I would have done a Magic Eye of this.
kirk murphy @ 85
It’s okay, we take the media that suits us best…I consume both NPR and PBS. But PUBLIC radio and PUBLIC television belong to US. I refuse to concede them to the neo-con fascists. I will fund Bill Moyers as long as he continues to truly serve the public interest — and boy, is he tonight.
Find what you can support on NPR — don’t fund the rest. But don’t let those bastards on the right win by forcing you away.
I dunno. Some of this presumes that Bloch will do what is in his own self-interest. This administration is gone in about twenty months. He’s got to swim in civilian waters, just like the rest of us, after that.
The `pugs have happily embraced the elephant logo likely because they have very long memories. Would Bloch be doing himself any favors going after Rove, taking that into account? Sure, some of the old guard resent Rove’s hijacking of the party, and he might find work with them–but, there’re going to be long lines at those establishments, and that leaves the DC think tanks, largely run by the neo-cons, who would be inclined to treat him like a heretic, or worse, a traitor.
Those conditions apply even if he recuses himself from any investigation and leaves his DC professional staff to do the work. He’s replaced most of them with knee-jerk fundies, anyway.
My guess is that his strategy has already begun–he’s going to do what all Bushies do: depend upon PR. The press is noting a “wide-ranging” investigation. That description certainly comes from his office. My guess is that there will plenty of selective leaks that lead nowhere, generating enough press to make it seem like progress, maybe some reorganization of the staff, which is a time-honored technique to make standing still look like movement.
Now, it’s entirely possible that Bloch sees that the situation has changed after the elections. Maybe he understands that the rules have changed. But, everything he’s done in the OSC prior to now indicates that he’s a good do-bee. He saw his job as dismantling that office, and he’s worked diligently to do just that. Having supervised its virtual dismantlement, just how well is it going to do this task?
Taking down Rove means taking down Bush because he’s Bush’s brain. Bush woud never allow it.
Here in SC PBS is replaying Enron-Smartest Guys in the Room. Where is Moyers??!! The program guide lists Moyers, but it’s not on.
ccmask @ 108
Take them both out! And Cheney!
I am particularly assuaged by those members of my party, the Democratic Party who voted for an attack on Iraq, but have since admitted that was a mistaken vote on their part and are subsequently calling for a pull out. I am particularly incensed by those in my party who don’t.
Moyers: Timmy feigning ignorance.
Is Riverview by Gracie Square?
CTuttle @ 97
probably some anti-war votes too.
some people are not happy about funding the war/occupation through sept. 2008… here’s hoping that bush will veto (then i get the pleasure of being wrong… which in this case will really be quite lovely).
ljt @ 109
Interesting…
eCAHNomics @ 112
Who is Timmy?
ljt @ 109
I’ve got channel 3 on.
Watching Moyers special now … Timmeh!! is getting interviewed .. looking like a tool .. again!!!!
God, what a f*cking cold-blooded piece of evil is Richard Bruce Cheney.
I’m not religious — but this guy is evil incarnate, Satan himself waddling among us, lying as easily as humans breathe.
And here it is, right here, on PBS.
And Russert, his tool. Stupid, willing schmuck.
edit: Cassie — Timmy, Timmeh, Pumpkinhead = Tim Russert, of Meet the Press on NBC. Also NBC’s Washington Bureau Chief, if memory serves.
montag @ 106
Well, my premise is that an honest investigation *would* be in Bloch and the Republicans’ best interest, not that there will actually *be* one.
That’s probably a toss-up at best, but my *main* premise is that a whitewash will not be good for them.
Hi, ccmask-about 20 mi. SE of Tampa.
SnarKassandra @ 116
Tim Russert–Bush’s henchman.
SnarKassandra @ 116
Tim Russert .. host of Meet the Press(but referred to around here derisively as Press the Meat.
ccmask @ 113
Riverview is an area of Hillsborough Co, outside Tampa, mostly rural.
Perhaps the dems that will not admit their horrid mistake can be taken out by our grassroots efforts. Time to strip the ranks of the unwilling.
Rayne @ 119
Dick Cheney owns Tim Russert!!
“Timmy” is Tim Russert of Meet the Press.
The roll call of this evening’s vote in the House is online.
SnarKassandra @ 116
Russert. MTP.
Eureka Springs @
61
Sounds like a hit list for ‘08.
RonD @ 121
Oh. I thought you meant Manhattan. I’m in Highlands County, Forida.
Watching Bill Moyers
Is it time to impeach now?
Oh jeez!! Michelle Malkin’s new boyfriend is on Moyers now.
Moyers: Kurtz: Admin speaks, we must report it.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 123
SnarKassandra @ 116
eCAHNomics @ 112
Moyers: Timmy feigning ignorance.
Who is Timmy?
Tim Russert .. host of Meet the Press(but referred to around here derisively as Press the Meat.
Also referred to as Timmeh or Cheney’s b*tch.
Eli, great post! I just don’t see the Shrub playing it straight! I’m deeply concerned they’ll obfuscate through Bloch/OSC, not that they’ll succeed, but the process will inexorably drag on and on, tick, tick, tick….
sunshine @ 132
better late than never.
I love watching tv with all of you.
ccmask @ 138
Me too! My cousin is even interested in this!
CTuttle @ 136
Indeed, obfuscation is the name of the game. They’ll run the fucking clock out. That’s the one and only plan they actually have for everything.
ccmask @ 138
So nice to share.
“…but they do worry about getting out ahead of something…”
Didn’t catch this guy’s name from WaPo.
What an amazing selection of words, the same ones that Karl Rove used in cautioning Matt Cooper about the uranium story.
edit: Was that Howie Kurtz? Sorry, I’m trying to iron clothes and can’t keep my eye on the tube, can only listen.
Rather is still better than most of them.
ccmask @ 138
And eating ice-cream sandwiches in mom’s basement too!! :P
Oklahoma kiddo @
13
Rove thinks he is the most powerful person on earth. He has a US president programmed for some 11 or 12 years, and is in complete control. Not through commands, but through the complexities of the program he has been feeding Chimpy for many year. Chimpy believes it!
Which way do we go now, Karl? pant, pant, pant… tail wagging … Which way do we go now, Karl?
Never, ever, vote for a stupid president. Vote for the smarter one, even if he is a little stiff looking – eg; Gore and Kerry. They may be losers, but they are better than a complete megalomaniac idiot.
RonD @ 143
He is a Texan.
I wish I had got into politics as early as you Cassie. I could’ve been a contender.
SnarKassandra @ 139
Well, that’s cool!
CTuttle @ 135
Thanks! But do you *really* see Waxman or Conyers or Leahy saying, “Oh, Bloch’s got this one, I’m going to back off on my investigations”? I sure don’t.
All the Bushies get out of this is an excuse for Big-Girl-Panties Perino not to answer any questions about it.
Rather “we weren’t smart enough, we didn’t dig enough…
we shouldn’t have been fooled this way”
Being on the west coast sucks right now.
The OSC investigation is not something at this point I am putting much faith into. Perhaps in three months or so I will have a change of mind. I hope so.
Moyers: Pollack–we know SH is doing it. Oprah sez we’re not propaganidzing, just showing you what is.
Re: Moyer show, these interesting comments from a dKos diary-er…
I would also appreciate it if you would keep an eye out for technical difficulties in the broadcast. Twice now, on my local broadcast, as up-linked through DirecTV, Bill Moyers’ Journal has had audio sync problems making the show almost unviewable.
I never noticed the audio sync problems on other PBS broadcasts and twice on Bill Moyers journal (This was the Telco show from a few months ago).
Also, if you can, watch today’s Democracy Now. It has Moyers on for the whole show and I could write a diary about his interview there – he says democracy has become a “racket”.
The New York Times decided to ignore tonight’s broadcast in their TV review. After watching you’ll know why.
Spread the word.
***
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..19818/2776
Wouldn’t it have been funny for someone to say,”We know he has WMD’s…because we have the receipts.”
Moyers: Kerry & Clinton caving.
tbsa @ 151
There isn’t a stream?
tbsa @ 151
Come over to my house!
Peterson MN Blue Dog voted Yea
Waters Black Caucus voted Nay.
I think tells the tale.
ljt @
109
You might want to call your local station and ask if they pulled it in response to pressure and, if so, pressure from whom?
Hey, I feel cheated, y’all are watching Moyers and live blogging it and I have to wait another 3 1/2 hrs til I can see it!!!
Moyers: Byrd & Kennedy begging to differ.
tbsa @ 151
San Antone is not showing it now either. Misery luvs company doncha know?
TeddySanFran @ 160
I watched that last night, maybe Moyers will be on tomorrow.
Senator Robert Byrd “I want to see more evidence”
On whitewashing: actually what concerns me more is not a tepid investigation, but an investigation that points wholly and entirely at exactly one person who’s willing to sacrifice ten years of his/her life for the good of the party. “There, we found the culprit: Arnie Finklethwat!” and all the Republicans point at him, call the matter closed, and continue on.
This is why I’m still leary of the immunity offer for Goodling. I’m kinda half expecting she’ll go take total responsibility for everything ever. Republicans will then get to say “hey, they found the guilty party they wanted, now let’s put all this unpleasantness behind us.” Any further investigation into the matter is then spun to make it look like the Democrats are only playing politics.
dakine01 @ 163
Drive north! We have the Waco channel and the Austin channel and it is on both.
SnarKassandra @ 157
Waiting to watch in on the wide screen.
Oh, my — who was the gentleman with the word count? Only 36 words, one sentence on Teddy Kennedy’s rejection of the claims on the war, but WaPo spends 1000 articles/1 million words on pro-war stories.
Moyers: If you weren’t with it, everyone was against you. Slime machine (O’Reilly clip).
Moyers: Donahue suffers the consequences.
selise @ 137
It starts Saturday: http://www.a28.org/ *April 28th
eCAHNomics @ 156
And Teddy giving an impassioned speech questioning the evidence.
Donahue: What’s wrong with this picture?
spinn @ 165
They can *try*. I think any concerns about a whitewash assume that Bloch’s investigation is operating in a vacuum, without any other investigations going on, and without any potential for political backlash.
Eli @ 149
But Eli, the OSC probe where they will say ‘no comment’ due to the probe. By the by, Snow Job will be back on Mon.!
I ran across a post from Novak of all people today that makes the case that Bloch has been attacked by the Bushies for various reasons and may have good reason to fight back:
Read Novak’s analysis.
Iglesias is fighting back and may have actually found an ally in Block.
tbsa @ 151
I’m between Austin and San Antonio and it is on our PBS channel here KLRU.
Anybody with the guts to put Scott Ritter on the air has very little fear.
Moyers: Donahue: Everyone wants to bomb someone. Scott Ritter appearance, but had to have opposite view, unlike Perle, who didn’t need to have oppsite view. 2:1 ratio, detremined from above.
TeddySanFran @ 160
I’ve been trying to call–can’t get anyone to answer a phone (even the after-hours number). The SC-ETV website lists Moyers as the show from 9-10:30, but it’s definitely not on. Argghh.
Damn, Donahue spills it, he had to have minders/counterpoints to every liberal.
We’ve known it, could see it, and here’s the validation.
Gawddamnitall, f*cking fascists have completely p0wned us and a scant majority/minority gave them the keys and the rope and the chain link…
Moyers: Donahue: Patriotism police.
allan_in_upstate @ 128
Some lefties voted no, including Maxine Waters. I assume this is because they want immediate withdrawal?
RonD @ 174
This different from the Catholic Donahue y’all hate, right?
I wonder if they will use the OSC investigation to tell Congress they can’t talk about anything because there’s an investigation going on.
ljt — does your local newspaper have a reader blog? Might be worth going and asking about it there… stir the pot a bit.
Rayne @ 182
TWO conservatives to every liberal. Good lord!
Moyers: MSM almost no coverage of anti-war demonstrations.
CTuttle @ 175
Yes, it gives them an excuse to stonewall the media, which they were going to do anyway.
Plus I think they’ve commented on the USA investigation already, which kinda blows that excuse to hell anyway.
Also, the OSC investigation is not a *criminal* investigation, which would make the no-comment dodge even lamer.
eCHANomics…
Clinton caving? I can’t believe it.
Exactly, Phil. You can have two conservatives on with one liberal because Phil counted as two. You could have a conservative on alone but not a disenter alone. Those orders came from the top, Phil says.
CTuttle @ 161
Not like particularly good Daily Shows or Colbert Reports, when some PDT-forgetful East Coast folks give away the punch lines! Luv ya, EDT, but remember — we like our Comedy Central fresh! *g* (That’s an extra-wonderfulness about Countdown; the continental US gets him all at the same time, I think….)
Looking forward to the WCoast Moyers — we’ll flood the LateNiteZone with our pithy comments as well!
HR1591 the Iraq supplemental passed 218-210
Democrats who voted against: 12
Barrow
Boren
Davis, Lincoln
Kucinich
Lee
Lewis (GA)
Marshall
Matheson
Michaud
Taylor
Waters
Woolsey
Republicans who voted for: 2
Gilchrist
Jones (NC)
Voting Present: 2
Democrat: Stark
Republican: Emerson
Not voting: 5
Democrats: Costa; Lampson
Republicans: Cubin; Davis, Jo Ann; Westmoreland
Yes-this is Phil Donahue, liberal talk show host that was taken off the air.
Kass: Yep, this is Phil Donahue, TV host. Formerly married to Mary Tyler Moore, IIRC? His show was canceled in the run-up to Iraq.
The probe will be utilized to preclude Waxman,etal., we know it really won’t fly in the courts, but it puts it in the courts, one more needless hurdle/hoop! tick,tick,tick…
Phil Donahue
hold it, wait a minute…, can we afford this(war in Iraq)?
(abt his tv show)
we were constructed from above …. to have two conservatives on the show for every liberal
we could have Richard Pearl alone, but not Scott Ritter (weapons inspector)
Neo Leftist @ 176
Hmm… I guess I *am* getting paranoid; I think this is Novak being a good Republican by trying to make Bloch look credible.
ljt @ 109
Echelon trapped it. You don’t actually think you control your remote, do you?
Wow! I just checked my e-mail and because I had called someone last year in support of Colbert’s smackdown during the WHCA, I got an e-mail from someone about “earthportal.org” which is launching tomorrow with some live streaming with Jane Goodal and some others. Just skimmed the e, but looks somewhat interesting.
Nothing like being on all the left wing mailing lists to know all the groups that Darth and the Chimpenfuhrer hate.
Lou Costello @
39
Yes. And, this is the real purpose of an OSC investigation. Classic Rove… tie it up with “I’t being investigated” and “gum it to death.”
Poof!!! No one can get anything while it is in the hands of an “investigation.”
CD @ 196
Marlo Thomas…still.
Moyers: Craziness interspresed with Landau (not sure if I got that right), of Knight-Rider, voice of reason, who sounds a lot like me at the time.
SnarKassandra @ 185
Phil Donohue, talk show host for years and years.
Starting to smell that rat again.
KO’s Special Comment at C&L: http://www.crooksandliars.com/…..e-you-sir/
Hugh @ 194
How did the Independant vote?
Or they could just sit on it, like all the other Repug investigations. It’s just sort of ongoing. And no one pays attention to these things unless someone’s making an announcement.
eCAHNomics @ 23
We know each other. Why am I not surprised?
OOOH. Viewer Discretion warning that some audiences might find objectionable as lead-in to Moyers show.
Paul Wellstone was against the war, he died in a weird plane crash & Walter Mondale who took his place in the elections, Mondale was ahead, till strangly in the evening the numbers skyrocketed for his apponent.
Moyers: No talk show invitations except C-SPAN.
Left coasters: You know the story. It gets better with repitition.
Damn, dakine, I wish you were still here-I often feel like a lone voice crying in the wilderness. You know what this area is like.
Today’s new stories at YouThinkLeft
# Encourage Legislators to Close the School of the Americas
# OSHA Leaves Worker Protection to Those That Endanger Workers
# Rice Subpoenaed by the House
# House Grants Goodling Immunity
I will be writing about this TV show. In an hour or so. How long is the show?
CTuttle @ 97
Blue dogs gotta go. Period.
kurtz sucks – his wife is a repug operative – moyers is digging deep here
Okay, now I’ve got names. It was Pincus who oddly used the words of Karl Rove (guess I don’t recognize Pincus on sight or sound).
And Eric Boehlert with the word count. (Author of Lapdogs — explains it, he did the research.)
Blub @ 184
That would be because the Out of Iraq Caucus agreed not to whip all its members for this vote, since Nancy & Murtha needed some of their votes but not all. Presumably, the caucus would decide beforehand who could vote against the Supp and not endanger passage. The honor went to Maxine, as the caucus leader.
So, tomorrow the Senate votes. Will it be as close as the original bill? Will Hagel and Smith stay on the side of the angels?
And can we start calling W The Veto-Er on Friday?
Ooops, me @ 213: Knight-Ridder got no talk show invitations except C-SPAN. Not so good on this live blogging thing.
ccmask @ 208
There are currently no independents in the House.
CD @ 196
Not married to Mary Tyler Moore. Still married to Marlo Thomas, That Girl, daughter of Danny Thomas.
Moyers grilling Bienert: How do you get your facts?
Bienert: I read the reports… And (paraphrased) I’m not a reporter. I’m just writing editorials.
ccmask @ 208
Both Indys in senate now.
CD @ 196
No, Phil is married to Marlo Thomas (Danny Thomas’ daughter, woman of “That Girl” fame, St. Judes Children’s Research Hospital).
Moyers: Rather: Reporting is hard. (!!!!)
Loo Hoo @ 216
Actually not. There are four or five there (Kucinich, Woolsey, Lee, etc.) who likely didn’t think it went far enough, that think the funding should have been cut off and troops brought home.
SnarKassandra @ 185
Phil Donohue, the first modern-day talk-show host.
(also, he’s Mr. Marlo Thomas.)
TeddySanFran @ 219
And W’s two vetos in 6 years will be stem cell research and this.
mrsmarks @ 223
Beinart said it wasn’t about the facts.
Peter Beinart, so-called leftist, apologist for war.
It doesn’t matter, Beinart, whether you did it on television or what you refer to as the richer medium, print. You gave them cover and helped them pawn this war on us. We won’t forget in either medium.
TeddySanFran says
April 25th, 2007 at 7:04 pm
SnarKassandra @ 185
RonD @ 174
Donahue: What’s wrong with this picture?
This different from the Catholic Donahue y’all hate, right?
Phil Donohue, the first modern-day talk-show host.
(also, he’s Mr. Marlo Thomas.)
RonD @ 214
I know what you’re saying but I’ve been in the minority in most areas I live.
mrsmarks @ 223
Shorter Peter Beinert: Marty passes gas, I transcribe.
dakine01 @ 211
Yup. A lot of it will make the uninitiated want to puke.
juslin @ 217
That’s why he’s called Hacktacular Howie with Malkin as his newest BFF.
William Donohue, Religious-right hatemonger.
Timmeh!! again … what a frackin’ tool …. I can’t believe he even agreed to appear on Moyers special.
dakine01 @ 224
And we all know how one of them will vote…
Hugh @ 221
Sorry….I was thinking of Unce Joey.
Moyers: Daily show sound bite clip on “not hunting & pecking” for WMDs. Rice & Powell.
“It’s the mid-level people who tell you the truth,” says Russert.
So why didn’t you LISTEN to them if there were any who were actually truthful, you stupid schmuck? When did he tape this with Moyers — after he’d been exposed for Cheney’s favorite tool??
Timmeh – talking about challenging people on his show.
Timmeh was just asked how he felt about over 400 tv stories wrt the war were false.
SnarKassandra @ 215
Make sure you link to PBS. http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/btw/watch.html
Helen @ 243
which is very hard to do while he is fellating Cheney.
SnarKassandra @ 232
TeddySanFran says
April 25th, 2007 at 7:04 pm
SnarKassandra @ 185
RonD @ 174
Donahue: What’s wrong with this picture?
This different from the Catholic Donahue y’all hate, right?
Phil Donohue, the first modern-day talk-show host.
(also, he’s Mr. Marlo Thomas.)
Bill Donohue, Catholic League and all around hater extraordinaire.
The people at the top are political not professional…
I didn’t get the name who said this on Bill Moyers, but truth lies in this statement for this WH.
Democrats. Why don’t all of you consider working in DC five days a week instead of 2 or three days per week? The times and the challenges demand it. In this 24/7 world it is necessary.
LooHoo, I concur with you! I was suprised to see Waters and Kucinich voting no!
Shorter Timmeh: “It’s the Democrats fault.”
Watching to see if Moyers mentions that several hundred pages may have been lifted by the US from the report Iraq turned over in Nov. 2002…
Nope.
How to Succeed in Journalism
CTuttle @ 250
they want out NOW but were willing to go along with the Speaker.
Pincus just said that during Reagan, the press gave up “truthsquading”, i.e., verifying accuracy during Reagan’s speeches…He then said, we left it up to the Democrats to figure it out(or something to that effect), NOT US.
TRAITOR JOURNALISTS.
Moyers: Clever weapons inspectors hade nothing to report, nothing found. Me at the time: Dya spose they went to the 200 places least likely to have weapons first?
one of the bloggers on my site wrote about rice and powell testifying about WMD
SnarkCassie: this guy
Moyers: Powell’s farce at UN.
Colin Powell’s lowest hour … getting thrown under the bus by Shooter and Smirk
RonD @ 253
Repeat after me…”Preview is your friend.”
http://nothoughtcontrol.blogsp…..alism.html
TeddySanFran @ 258
Looks kinda like a jerk.
CTuttle @ 250
A few on the left may have voted no no matter what but more likely there was an understanding that if their votes were needed they would deliver them. Since the vote was 218-210, they were free to vote their consciences.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 249
Um, you did catch that the Republicans pitched a hissy fit that Pelosi said the work schedule was 5 days a week when the 110th Congress returned to work first week of January, yes? Republicans called Democrats anti-family because they were being expected to be in Washington more than Tues-Weds-Thu as they had been for the previous 6-plus years…
I know I’ve tried to set up meetings for folks with Dems in Washington on Fridays and not been able to make them happen because they were already busy and overbooked with hearings and work.
I am beginning to become a bit circumspect regarding a commenter here.
CTuttle @ 250
I thought he sounded and looked a little crazed at the end of his impeach Cheney presser today
Sorry Lou-thought I did it right. Still learning.
I remember now why my mother called Colin Powell a lying punk.
tbsa @ 151
Yeah, keep keeping us posted!
Moyers: Within days Powell’s presentation revealed for the farce that it was, and plagarized at that.
Listening to the local NPR station out of Flagstaff, they indicated Renzi might possibly be resigning very soon. The Hill has this headline right now:
Renzi story
Dasm!! I wonder where that college grad student is now.
eCAHNomics @ 270
I thought he said that the secret dossiay was plagerized.
Bill Moyers is doing a great service to this nation by pointing out (a) that the war was sold by Goebbels-like propaganda, and (b) that the majority of the public were against it until they were subjected to it, and (c) that a large number of us demonstrated against it, but the press refused to cover.
This war is a moral as well as a strategic catastrophe. We are unable to undo the strategic catastrophe and will simply have to live with the fact, with all its implications, which are many. But the moral ones can be saved just a little by the fact that many of us resisted. And Moyers is testifying to that resistance.
RonD @ 267
Just lookin’ out for ya. Good article…THX!
http://nothoughtcontrol.blogsp…..alism.html
I thank my lucky stars every day for FDL. This absolutely brilliant analysis is an excellent example of the stellar standards of FDL.
Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rayne @ 264
Oh yes, I am aware of that. ;0)
eCAHNomics @ 270
Just goes to show … Smirk and henchmen knew how to use The Google .. and those inter tubes.
Oops, in my #263 I should have said the vote was 218-208.
Knut Wicksell @ 274
May I quote you on that?
SnarKassandra @ 273
It was. Right off the inter tubes.
Moyer: Rather explaining that Colin Powell is trusted. LOL. Google colin powell my lia report to find out why you should never believe anything the guy sez.
I need to get my comment in before this thread turns to dust, so here goes, before reading all the comments:
Your fave outcome is “electoral losses and permanent minority status for the Republican Party.” But how likely is that? Notice that you wrote permanent minority status. The last time that happened to a national party was the Whigs of the U.S., that went belly-up in 1856, right before the Civil War. It ain’t gonna happen– and if it does, you probably won’t be happy with the results.
What is much more likely to happen is that a new political cycle begins, with Republicans in minority status for a decade or so, before rising to prominence once again. Worse yet, we could be treated to something like the emergence in the past 6 years of previous exiles Elliot Abrams, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz and others who were baptized in politics under Nixon, flourished briefly under Reagan, and came to power with George W. Bush. I hate it when that happens!
So that is why my eyes are not fixed on the biggest possible electoral victory in 2008. Instead, my eyes are fixed on restoring our Democracy, beginning with public humiliations of the bastards who are messing it up (through removal from office by impeachment or termination), followed quickly by a strengthening of Institutional structures to prevent power-mad (vice-)presidents or presidential advisors from doing what Cheney and Rove and Bush have been able to do. (This also means preventing Hilary or any Democrat from doing it!)
This may take some major re-tooling of our democracy, because BushCo. demonstrated how quickly major damage can be done by a rogue party with control of the executive and a compliant Congress: The Executive can act faster and more decisively than the Legislature or the Courts can react. If the Republicans stole Florida in 2000 and Ohio in 2004, it has taken more than one election cycle to fix either one and by that time it is too late.
Bob in HI
Hugh @ 279
Anybody know how many of those were Waters’ caucus members and how many were really treacherous defectors?
Oklahoma kiddo, don’t you remember all the repugs sniveling about the extended work week in the House, I seem to remember Putnam whining that he won’t have quality time with his Family!
eCAHNomics @ 282
amen, amen, amen.
what is it about journalist and history?
Knut Wicksell @ 274
Moyers must head our Truth and Reconciliation Commission starting in 2009 (or sooner if my Congresswoman should get her well-deserved two-step promotion)
eCAHNomics @ 270
I remember at the time that I was willing to accept protestations that there were some WMD programs in Iraq, until I saw Powell at the UN, and all I could think after that was, “We are so f*cked.”
Moyers: Donahue cancelled 22 days before invasion despite good ratings.
well said Bob Schacht @ 283. thank you.
SnarKassandra @ 280
It would be a pleasure, not to say an honour.
moyers is exposing all the MSM bought into the pre-war hype – well now – surprise surprise – NOT!
eCAHNomics @ 282
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai#Cover-up
If the Republicans choose not to be in DC along side the Democrats five; perhaps six days a week doing the peoples business, so be it.
Knut Wicksell says
April 25th, 2007 at 7:17 pm
SnarKassandra @ 280
Knut Wicksell @ 274
Bill Moyers is doing a great service to this nation by pointing out (a) that the war was sold by Goebbels-like propaganda, and (b) that the majority of the public were against it until they were subjected to it, and (c) that a large number of us demonstrated against it, but the press refused to cover.
This war is a moral as well as a strategic catastrophe. We are unable to undo the strategic catastrophe and will simply have to live with the fact, with all its implications, which are many. But the moral ones can be saved just a little by the fact that many of us resisted. And Moyers is testifying to that resistance.
May I quote you on that?
It would be a pleasure, not to say an honour.
Should I say “Knut Wicksell of Firedoglake” or how do you want me to quote you?
SnarKassandra @
262
DL Hughley on Bill Maher a while ago, “If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it’s a motherf**king duck!”
OKK:
Well, then, can you expand on your original 5day/2-3 day comment directed at Democrats, then? It sounded to me like you were saying Democrats were slacking off, which they aren’t. I’m a little confused about the original comment, and would appreciate understanding your thinking that motivated it, if you knew that Democrats had gone to a 5-day workweek.
Being that I’m an hour behind most of y’all in this, at least I can see what I’ll soon see (he says)
Got to give up on Moyers. Too many bad memories. Very few profiles in courage here. Scott Ritter excepted.
Eli @ 175
Plus, if Bloch can pull off a decent investigation, and indict people, so much the better for the dems. Then, republicans are finding scandals too. That said, the dems will investigate on their own and call Bloch on any foul-ups.
Hugh @ 194
Fucking Costa, I truly regret voting for that bastard. How in the hell do you not make it to the vote then show up to the house floor saying you would have voted for it if you were there. WTH!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 277
I didn’t see your /snark tag, OKK.
Personally, I think we’re ready to move to 7/24/365, follow the sun.
klyde @
268
Too many people knew Colin ‘misspoke’. Rove cleverly made assertions and left the burden of proof on his critics, to disprove him.
CTuttle @ 250
Kucinich considers it a continuation of the war funding. I think Waters in the Out of Iraq Caucus.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 294
now that’s a paradox if there ever was one.
OOOH. James Banford dissecting Chalabi. The Puzzle Palace indeed.
Quote of the show:
The press has yet come to terms with it’s role in the run up to war in Iraq
Bill Moyers
Dasm!! Look at all the assholes that turned Moyers down. Cowards all!!
Rather just explained why corporate news media is a relic, a useless fossil: they go along to get along.
Bob Schacht @ 282
Well, would you settle for the Republicans being rolled back far enough and long enough for the Democrats to start repairing our government?
Would you settle for an American public that sees red flags whenever Republicans start grabbing power and acting unethically because That’s What They Did in the ’70s and the ’00s? Or a Republican Party that is forced to reinvent itself to survive? Especially distancing itself from the religious right and the neocons/unitary executarians?
Any or all of these things would make me very very happy.
eCAHNomics @ 299
very painful memories for me too.
i was working so hard with anti-war organizing… hoping against hope that the war could be prevented.
this so didn’t have to happen.
Doesn’t it suck how Bush has turned the Medal of Freedom into a political payoff?
AZ Matt @
271
Now – that is good news!
eCAHNomics @ 299
I am very sad to see young journalists, like the WaPo’s Peter Baker in this morning’s chat, laud Russert for his in-depth questions, “putting people’s quotations up on the screen and reading them out loud.[para]” Never an acknowledgement from this next generation of TradMed journos that Tim never asks the obvious followup questions (the ones we are yelling at our teevee every Sunday, right?)
Lou Costello @ 307
Ya know, they keep screwing that up. They’re trying to quote Ronnie Ray-guns when he said “Aw, shucks”
TeddySanFran @ 287
only if the commission doesn’t require us to give immunity to these thugs
pbs.org has a timeline.
I can’t believe they went this long without ANY commercials.
if the MSM would leave the beltway from time to time they’d see how the country really feels about this war – inside the beltway they only talk amongst themselves re-inforcing their own convictions and staying on the lucrative circuit – BRAVO BILL MOYERS!!
Mr Friedman Units is too afraid of Moyers. Go figure!!
That was good. If you missed it:
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/btw/watch.html
SnarKassandra @ 319
That’s the joys of PBS, they don’t need twenty-five commercial breaks.
tbsa:
Did Costa do this??? That behavior deserves its own website, with a petition for constituents to sign and then call the office about. Go for it!
selise @ 312
Actually, it DID have to happen. That’s the real thrust of Moyers. Too many powerful figures arrayed against the people. Watch Moyers first of regularly sched Fri appearances when he’ll feature Jon Stewart and Josh Marshall, as reps of new media which will hopefully replace rotting old media.
TeddySanFran @ 324
Yes, when I heard about the vote here at FDL I turned to CSpan in time to see him get on the floor and explain how he would have voted aye had he been there. Disgusting!
Rayne… ;0)!
You can blog the program at pbs right now
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/jour…..er_re.html
dakine01 @ 306
It will never be proved, but I an sure Chalabi was an Iranian agent, and the stupid neo-cons were taken in by him. Who benefitted most from this misadventure? Iran, in many ways.
tbsa @ 304
dennis kucinich and maxine waters both voted against funding the war/occupation.
(it’s a little confusing because some of the no votes were anti-war and some were pro-war – the yes votes are the center)
i’m with the anti-war no votes… personally i wish congress would fund a withdrawal and no more war or occupation.
but right now there are too many pro-war pro-occupation congress critters (even in the dem party)…. it’s up to us to change that.
Here’s a question on the pbs blog:
Hi,
Thanx for your great reporting.
My question:
Was Scooter Libby a source for Miller & Gordon article of Sept. 2002 ?
Steve J.
I meet Mr.Moyers about 12 years ago in Sonoma. The local bookstore won the national poetry contest and he was the prize. The entire town showed up at the high school to hear him speak. His wife is a pistol. She is his producer. They are a couple that talks the talk and walks the walk.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 265
Call 1-800-Balrog.
hmmmm. Someone’s comment earlier got me wondering. Was Coleman’s win over Mondale the first test of the RNC’s cyber assault on election results?
Tonight’s broadcast, “Buying the War” introduced you to intrepid Knight Ridder (now McClatchy) reporters Jonathan Landay and Warren Strobel, who between them have over 40 years experience reporting on foreign affairs and national security.
They are answering your viewer questions live now. To submit a question, simply post it as a comment on this blog entry.
WhereWasCosta.com — make it your own!
Prairie Sunshine @ 334
Rumors have had it that Hagel’s first elections in Nebraska were a bit hinky.
no surprise here re – waters and kucinich voting no – they want us out of iraq like yesterday…
TeddySanFran @ 336
All over it!
Balrog @ 333
I hope it’s not me!
Call in CSI: electioneering
Balrog @ 333
How so??
Main Entry: circumspect
Pronunciation: ’s&r-k&m-”spekt
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French or Latin; Middle French circonspect, from Latin circumspectus, from past participle of circumspicere to look around, be cautious, from circum- specere to look — more at SPY
: careful to consider all circumstances and possible consequences : PRUDENT
synonym see CAUTIOUS
Prairie Sunshine @ 341
That’s why electronic voting machines need an audit trail and hard copy print of each vote.
dakine01 @ 337
Well, he owned the company that made the e-voting machines, ESS, right?
TeddySanFran @
329
Yeah! From wikipedia’s Chalabi entry:
In June 2004, it was reported that Chalabi gave U.S. state secrets to Iran in April, including the fact that one of the United States’ most valuable sources of Iranian intelligence was a broken Iranian code used by their spy services. Chalabi allegedly learned of the code through a drunk American involved in the code-breaking operation. Chalabi has denied all of the charges, and nothing has ever come of the charges nor do the Iraqi or U.S. governments currently seemed very interested in pursuing them.
That Moyers special was effin’ heartbreaking.
I weep.
TeddySanFran @ 344 asks:
Give that man a dollar!
Ed*ard Teller @ 314
Couldn’t happen to a nicer Guy!!!!
ccmask @ 340
No way. :0)
Bill Moyers 1987:
http://video.google.com/videop…..&hl=en
Balrog @ 333
;0)
I see Lynn Woolsey (D CA -1) on the No side. I know her slightly. She is very progressive and I’m sure was voting for no funding at all. If it had been closer I’m sure she would have voted with the Speaker.
I wrote pbs.org and told them what a great show! I’ll have to donate to them, as well as Conyers.
((( waving to petedownunder from a seat in the corner )))
SnarKassandra @ 319
That’s because we send them donations so they don’t need to make money from selling ads. That’s Public television as opposed to commercial television.
Kathryn in MA @ 355
I think my mom used to send money when we were little and watching Sesame Street.
Re HR1591 the Iraq supplemental
Democrats who voted against: 12
Barrow
Boren
Davis, Lincoln
*Kucinich
**Lee
**Lewis (GA)
Marshall
Matheson
Michaud
Taylor
**Waters
**Woolsey
** Co-founders of Out of Iraq Caucus
* Member of Out of Iraq Caucus
http://www.democracyrising.us/…..w/288/165/
The anzacs have arrived, my Pacific brethren!
Yup, Cassie, so did I. They would send ‘thank you’ gifts – i still have a mug with a ‘Dr. Who’ tardis on it that would turn invisible when you pour hot water in it.
((Waives to LoundounLib from CA this week – the bad news is the Late Night is really Late Night here instead of early evening))
annx @ 346
I’m going to watch it here in L.A. @ 9, but from the above commentary I know it’ll be like tearing the scab off a wound. All those marches, petitions, letters, all that anger @ the steamroller pushing us into a war that didn’t make any sense…Thanks for everyone’s comments. Will watch Buying the War w/a Sapphire & tonic at hand so I can stand it all.
CTuttle @
358
And their fan in Toronto. Saturday – Sri Lanka will be the lambs thrown into the Lions’ cage.
Well, pups, its past my bedtime. Night-night.
TeddySanFran @ 344
At the time, yes. But, what also is very curious is that before he ran, the Nebraska legislature passed two laws: one that electronic voting machines would be used state-wide, and, second, that all recounts had to be done on the electronic machines which counted the votes. Paper records were specifically disallowed in doing recounts. His challenger in one of the elections ran up against this in a suit challenging the results.
CTuttle @ 358
I’m just a Yank with a really long commute and an Aussie fiance, but I’m downunder mostly these days. 25 April is Anzac Day there – the Aussie and Kiwi Veteran’s Day, the date commemorates a huge disaster they suffered in WWI in Turkey.
montag @ 364
I think they call that stacking the deck.
Dan Rather should hide in shame the rest of his life. Peter Beinart should do community service at Walter Reed for 3 years.
Judith Miller, George Will, Bill Kristol and Richard Perle should fling themselves into a volcano to appeaset the Gods.
I am pissed all over again watching the Moyer’s special.
-GSD
But isn’t it also a stalling mechanism, and a way for the WH to say “we don’t comment on ongoing investigations”, and an excuse to refuse to go before Congress until their own investigation is complete (which won’t be until they’re out of office)?
Fielding has already refused all of Congress’ demands.
petedownunder @ 360
Hope you have a multi timezone watch to keep up with it all! ;-)
GSD @ 367
Umm, I thought virgin sacrifice was the order of the day where volcanoes are involved. All of the above probably don’t qualify, since they’ve been fuckin’ us for decades.
LoudounLib @
369
I do, but I still never know what day it is, what time it is, what season it is or how to spell anything.
That’s another thing too…all those protests that the journo’s never aired. There woud be 100,000 protesters and the news would show 12 long haired peope on a corner. That used to really piss me off. And they always lowered the crown numbers.
If a journalist is worried about his patriotism in a time of war, he needs a career change, no?
amberglow @ 367
They can try, but I don’t think it’ll work.
Also, they can *already* use the no-comment dodge on anything pertaining to the congressional investigations.
Petrocelli @ 362
Shout out to you, my Indian friend, and the Commonwealth compadres!
CTuttle @
374
HOW !
I mean, Namaste ;-)
GSD @ 367
I hate Bill Kristol and I rarely hate anyone. Besides everyone in the administration, of course. They must all have some good belly laughs over their fancy appetizers and expensive wines wrt all the death and destruction.
I think what the Moyers documentary reminds me of most is that back then I was still willing to give the government and the media the benefit of the doubt. I thought while some might spin and exaggerate there were still enough adults in the room that at least some credibility could be given to their assertions. I remember how that eroded with the Bushite jingoism, Powell at the UN, the gee whiz reporting, the fall of Baghdad and the looting of the National Museum, the failure to guard munition depots, Abu Ghraib. I don’t when it was exactly that I realized there were no adults, maybe there never had been, and that there could be no more benefits of doubt ever again.
amberglow @ 368
Fielding’s been down this road before, and there’s a stone wall at the end. He’s doing what he knows best.
I think he’s counting on the court-stacking that’s been going on for the last twenty-five years, and he may be right to do so, unfortunately.
petedownunder @ 365
It’s recognized and celebrated here in Hawaii, as we have a large contingent of Aussies and New Zealanders! I’ve done flag honors for the event!
dakine01 @ 347
Give that man a dollar!
All the ONEs in my wallet have this person on them.
Hugh @ 377
Beyond everything else that has been screwed up with this mis-guided war, the failure to secure and guard the munitions dumps and armorys has to qualify as criminal negligence.
I knew the minute that first tower came down that we were screwed. I knew it. Everything just fell into place for them. Everyone in this administration was in their place ready for the catastrophe. If there is any doubt, go watch the goat video for our president’s reflexes and facial expressions.
May Colin Powell be forever haunted by his participation that ruse. I so remember that his testimony at the UN was the turning point for soooo many.
He was the most important salesman in this war that has consumed 10’s of thousands of lives.
-GSD
CTuttle @
358
Call Laura Bush, she’ll want some! Oh, I thought you said Xan*x.
TeddySanFran @
380
All the ONEs in my wallet have this person on them.
Close enough for guvmint work.
TeddySanFran @ 380
All the ONEs in my wallet have this person on them.
“Wild” ones, Teddy? ;-)
i’ll have to watch the re-run again to catch what i missed on moyers special tonight as i was trying to keep up with comments here – but its heart-breaking to see how many reporters caved in by not asking hard questions during the run-up to the war – bought bush’s line all the way……
Petrocelli, you mentioned to me you were Indian, as in Subcontinental Indian, Asiatic! How!!!!
petedownunder @
352
Madame Speaker is walking a fine line. She has to get this passed, while knowing that the Out of Iraq caucus is PO’ed. It just goes to show that the Repubs in Congress are still a bunch of dead enders.
Hugh @ 377
I must be an outlier. I never give anyone the benfit of the doubt. Although I became an economist, my undergraduate training was in science (some 40 years ago). No hypothesis is ever proved, just waiting to be disproved. I approached the Iraq WMD under that frame. Thus approached, it was easy to disprove conventional wisdom. Every hyp of theirs crumbled to dust upon inspection. Never believe anything you hear.
ccmask @ 382
They’d spent their first summer in office on vacation ignoring all the professionals with their hair on fire, ensuring our allies’ reports about al Qaida didn’t reach the Oval. Their 1998 PNAC manifesto specifically regretted that it might take a Pearl Harbor-type event to wake America to the “danger” we faced.
juslin @ 387
What’s tragic is that if we had had the blogosphere back then that we have today we could have done the research to call them on their lies and to have spread the evidence around sufficiently that it couldn’t have been swept under the carpet or overlooked by politicians the way it did happen. It wasn’t that the media didn’t ask hard questions, most of them didn’t ask any questions at all, except: Can I embed, please, pretty please, please?
CTuttle @
388
Ah, you remembered. I’m more like Apu, less like Sitting Bull ;-)
That must have been quite an honor for you to be a part of Anzac Day. They were tremendous soldiers in World War One. Did both countries fight together in WW II as well? I remembered that the Aussies and Indians fought the Japs in Burma, etc. but not sure if NZ has soldiers there as well. Brave men, all.
hey y’all..its time for late nite
OK. I posted my review of the Bill Moyers program tonight.
:)
Prolly EPU’d but just reached the point where Moyer is interviewing Peter Beinart. Wow! Beinart is a thoroughly arrogant and clueless idiot kid! Cassie is half his age and twice his intelligence!
Jeebus, even Pacifica/KPFK swallowed Rove’s meme:
(ugh)
a paraphrase:
“if the President vetoes the Iraq War funding bill, the Dems won’t have the votes to override a veto. the Congress will be under pressure from the White House to draft a bill without timelines.”
Wow – I knew KPFK had problems, but I didn’t know they were hiring NPR national news writers.
How do all these political writers keep forgetting the fight is about funding, not legislation?
Enacting a law after Executive veto requires a two-third majority.
The funding bills require simple majorities.
The Congress can send the same bill back to Shrub by a simple majority. And keep doing it as long as they want to.
I wish KPFK/Pacifica would look up from station politics long enough to resume their once thorough national coverage.
They might even rememeber the difference between statutes and appropriations.
(Then they could teach NPR!)
Rayne @ 106
Rayne, I agree with your goal(wrote the above comment before I saw your comment).
I don’t intend to walk away from NPR – I intend to aid in
tormentingenlightening the local affiliates so they force the neo-cons off the news programs.That objective requires the stations to find action is less painful than continued inaction.
Bummer for them.
They fund the shit and air the shit – they’re responsible for cleaning up their mess.
And they know better.
And they’ve ignored and marginalized listener input.
KQED’s big 2006 outreach campaign to listeners consisted of pestering the listeners to vote away their control over the station.
The NPR flagship stations collude with NPR National News in surrendering public radio news programming to neo-cons and the megacorps.
Nice cultural progams are lovely – but they don’t compensate for handing public radio microphones over to corporate PR.
We shouldn’t have to choose – and we need not.
We can reclaim public radio that enriches our minds, touches our hearts, and builds our communities.
We can take our public radio programs back from the insane neocons and murderous corporate jihadists.
My strategy for NPR is:
(1) Identify flagship* NPR stations in progressive metor areas – with dual stations carrying NPR’s drivetime radio news.
[in LA: KCRW*/KPCC
in SF: KQED*/KALW
in Chicago, NYC, DC, Boston: ?/?]
(2) Largest NPR stations (listensership) pay highest fees to NPR for programs (Morning Edition, ATC, WE, TOTN…).
In LA and SF, that means KCRW/KQED matter most to NPR for station contributions.
(3) Squeeze flagship station donations/ funding/ local underwriting of drive time news until it hurts.
[inform/communicate with station local news about campaign targeting NPR. Let them know their work is appreciated (if that’s how you feel) - targets are the neo-cons in NPR national.
(4) Squeeze station’s reputation in the community until business as usual with NPR National News is too costly for local station managers and boards.
The progressive values vs NPR news values tension splits local stations from NPR national news and publicizes the issue in multiple media markets.
What progressive community wants to fund local radio that provides time for fag-bashing think tanks?
NPR national news program have so internalized the reichwing/corporate flacks that every day is target-rich for media activists hunting for audio of NPR-selected commenters and “experts” with nasty connections and histories.
Such a lovely tool for institutional change….
Initial calls in SF suggest the task is not difficult.
The neothug commenters’ think tank connections really do it for me:
Reason institute and libertarian cruelty don’t appeal to the disabled business owners I’ve talked with.
AEI values aren’t going over well here in SF
Fund-raising volunteers on KQED and KCRW airdrives don’t like the anti-gay think tanks that provide NPR’s talkin heads for ATC/ME….
Sound like fun?
Everyone on the Lake can play – we don’t even have to get out of our PJ’s.
What NPR National News neo-con cruelty is toxic to your local community, and why?
Now ask your friends.
Then call the station’s sponsors.
Have fun!
eCAHNomics @
156
I can easily forgive them for their position at that time. They were fed bad information from the lyin’ liars in the lying White House and Pentagon.
What would naturally bother me is if one of those senators were to continue to support the Bush line in light of what we know now about how the propaganda for the war was lies, how the Niger uranium docs were forgeries (which indicates clear intent to lie) and so on.
Great show. I was particularly proud of my (usually centrist) senator Byrd (of West Virginia), who, despite his shaky hands, was steady as a rock in support of the Truth.
Hugh @ 392
Ding. Ding. Ding. I wish I had been able to share what I learned soon after 9/11. As I said above, watch Moyers on Fri for his take on leftie blogs & Jon Stewart on how that’s going to replace the rotting old media.
Hugh @
377
What I knew of Bush before 2000 convinced me he was dangerous, and the 2000 election simply confirmed my suspicions. 9/11 didn’t change any of those opinions. Rather, the behavior of the Bushies during and immediately after the attacks only convinced me they could not be trusted with anything, let alone the government.
MarkH @ 398
Wrong. One point of Moyers was that there was plenty of good info in real time, but tidal wave of W MSM was difficult to fight. I say baloney. Many of us did. We now have a voice. Let’s not excuse the cowards in power who caved in when it really mattered.
hugh @ 392
you’re probably correct – i still think trained journalists should’ve been a bit more skeptical – now here we are over 3000 americans dead – many more thousands severely wounded and god knows how many dead and woundede iraqis
MarkH @
398
Senator Byrd had some truly moving speeches on the run up to the war. He was clearly on the side of the angels on that point.
Plus, his speeches were always peppered with great biblical references and with nods to Greek philosphers and American patriots.
-GSD
Blub @
317
Well, traditionally, such commissions don’t give immunity to those guilty of “serious crimes.”
ccmask @ 372
The Revolution will be YouTube’d.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 265
As am I, Oklahoma kiddo….
kirk murphy @
406
Some of us are a bit slow … any hints?
In pig latin, maybe?!!
need to do homework and finish chores and take a bath. So … bye!
Joe Klein’s conscience @
272
If I remember right Karl works in the White House.
Bye Cassie -
thanks for joining us.
Please be extra-careful of strangers on the toobz.
You are a treasure, and your safety is important.
Sleep well.
SnarKassandra @ 408
What time zone do you live in? Bedtime for 15-year-olds in ET long gone! Good night.
eCAHNomics @ 411
Bedtime is 11:30 and I am in central. School starts at 9 here.
Late arrival here with a silly question–
Is Bloch from a pool of lawyers in the Bush administration OSC, or is he, once again, more independent and one of the 93 USAs who will pull double duty?
Also, did I read Mr Bloch has seven children?
what i dont understand is why more ppl dont hold EDITORS & PRODUCERS accountable – & instead go after the reportors/anchors (talent)
as someone who has worked as a media liason – i know the power these folks weild – yet we never see their names tied into the complicity of the media for doing the admin’s biding
Milan River @ 413
7 children=yes, according to what I read. Always a signal of religious extremism. As for the rest, opinion is mixed on Bloch. As for me, color me skeptical.
In the very beginning of the Plame thing, were people skeptical of Pat Fitzgerald, or were things mixed there, too.
Educated Plaintiff @ 414
Yes!
They act like their broadcasts and columns fell immaculate onto their Teleprompters and presses directly from Murrow’s next life.
We criticize media coverage – media deflect attention by cries of “censorship” – as if their editors aren’t paid to deliberately shape the program into a specific product with consistent tone from one broadcast/issue to the next.
Editors, producers, bookers – their work is necessary and could be honorable.
I love the idea of expanding our focus and demands for accountability outwards to include the producers, editors, bookers, as well as the faces and voices we’ve come to
loathelove.eCAHNomics @ 401
This would be a fantastic question to ask senators Clinton and Edwards with regard to their current presidential runs. One might even ask former v.p. Gore, though his time-frame in office was different.
It’s been said very few actually read any of the evidence, even that which was handed them from the Pentagon. This leads to the question of whether they simply didn’t make their vote based on EVIDENCE, but on political positioning.
Yep, it should be interesting to hear ALL of Washington answer to questions like that.
Since RNC email must be non-governmental, could some agency be wiretapping Rove?
One thing sorely missing in the blog discussions is who might have the authority to look into the alleged activities of Rove as the messaging pass into the private, yet public, domain. So little is being said by officials, that I somehow suspect anyone with a grudge and perceived authority might start turning over a few stones.
kirk murphy @ 417
we need to start naming names. i’m going to use producers/editors names from now on whenever i print anything on a blog or in an email criticizing an article or a story seen on tv. i hope others will do the same. these ppl should not be allowed to hide behind the “talent” any longer. they are very, very powerful.
Eli, stopped by after hours. have to say thanks, this is puzzlement to me, don’t know what to think so it helps when others look at it, too.
handwritng on the wall, did he see?
does it matter now? the ball is rolling, and it’s way too heavy to ever stop or even slow?
I don’t know.
allan_in_upstate @
58
Bingo!
Rove needs to be under oath. Cheney needs to be questioned under oath. This is an administration built on lies and medicrity and the American People need to see what they have blindly supported and to consider the awful consquences. It’s a civic lesson for the stupid american populace, if they can pry themselves away from American Idol and read something with more depth than People Magazine.
Mr. Bloch speaks regarding Rove-designed “informational briefings on the political landscape” given at major agencies:
WAPO
Scott J. Bloch, director of the Office of Special Counsel, alluded to the multiple briefings in an interview Monday, saying that “we have had allegations” and “received information” about similar talks that were held elsewhere besides GSA.
“Political forecasts, just generally . . . I do not regard as illegal political activity,” Bloch added. But he said his office would examine whether it was appropriate to use federal facilities or resources as well as review exactly what was said. “Where you cross the line is where you get into the slant of someone being elected or defeated” or trying to get a political party into or out of power, he said.
Justin Busch, a GSA appointee who attended the briefing there, told the investigators that Doan’s comment made him “very uncomfortable.” Dennis R. Smith, the regional GSA administrator in Boston, recalled a “feeling of unease” at Doan’s additional mention of the need to manage a GSA building visit by then-incoming House Majority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.).