In advance of our chat this afternoon with Tom Matzzie of MoveOn.org (beginning at 1:00 pm ET/10:00 am PT), we've been watching a lot of the Waxman Government Oversight hearing on the Tillman and Lynch misinformation reports from the Pentagon. It has been quite a morning of hearing, and I wanted to give folks who are just tuning in a little bit of information on the hearing. From the AP:
"We believe this narrative was intended to deceive the family but more importantly the American public," Kevin Tillman told a House Government Reform and Oversight Committee hearing. "Pat's death was clearly the result of fratricide," he said.
"Revealing that Pat's death was a fratricide would have been yet another political disaster in a month of political disasters … so the truth needed to be suppressed," said Tillman, who was in a convoy behind his brother when the incident happened three years ago but didn't see it.
The hearing is continuing, and I thought everyone would like a fresh thread to continue the discussion about it.
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zed?
Thanks for keeping the discussion going. Hearing Kevin Tillman speak clearly and without artifice to the posturing Congressmen (mostly R’s) is enough to give one hope.
Madness.
Thanks for continuing thread. There’s gonna be a general up to be questioned, I believe.
Cheney info about clot seems good (for him), apparently clot is getting smaller
Who this?
Harry Mitchell, D, AZ.
Does that mean Democrat???? OMG.
raven @ 6
Thanks
A friend of mine the other evening tried to convince me that most officers in the military did not vote Republican.
I LOVE this woman. She is tenacity embodied.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 8
After the Republics of this era and how they really treat the military, it would be suprising for officers to vote Republic.
Mom Tillman wants to get into record that Gen Abazaid was in Afgh was talking to platoon leader, says that was Abazaid’s excuse for not knowing it was friendly fire. But she states troops knew, that that Abazaid is full of BS. She says “he probably knew”
Waxman: That’s why you are here, deliberate untruths, we don’t know what WH and SecDef knew. Stories weren’t accidents, put out for PR and still a coverup.
MARY TILLMAN. SLAYING GIANTS.
DEATH!!!!!!!!!!! (Lord of the Rings Style).
10 minute recess
Ten minute recess
Waxman: These stories were calculated for PR purposes.
Listening to the Tillmans is giving me a stomachache. These people are amazingly strong.
Chat with Tom Matzzie has just started. Waxman’s committee is taking a break — so please stop by and say hello and give Tom a big FDL welcome.
Kids: do not join the military. The price you pay may be way too dear.
It really is part of one big THREAD: http://www.a28.org/ What are you doing Saturday?
From the last thread…
Kathleen @ 281
Republicans had ongoing investigations which they sat on, but there should have also been, by law apparently, several investigations opened within the WH, which just never happened. The Plame leak was one of them, never investigated, and a security breach left open.
Looks like the same vet in the bush hat from Gonzo’s hearing is holding up a sign. Keep up the fire!
If the stories were calculated for PR purposes the question has to be who ordered their fabrication? Subpeona the Generals, reporters, Pentagon spokespeople et al.
ten minute recess. Evidently Waxman doesn’t eat lunch when he’s got his teeth into something else.
Pat’s brother’s testimony was shattering.
Yes, we are all getting sick on this one!
Where we brought champagne and popcorn to other hearings, we bring kleenex and saltine crackers to this one.
Super, a recess. I’m gonna take me six-month old pound-rescued hound puppy for a walk. He’s been very understanding of me being on-line all morning.
Thanks Christy for this site and opportunity to share and commiserate!
(puppy say’s, oh, alright, thanks too. :)
Shrub up!
Wow. A general telling the press that the Tillmans won’t be satisfied because they are not Christian and can’t accept that Pat is “worm dirt”?!!!
Uh, I don’t recall any catechism that uses those words. I would want to rip the General’s face off. Shame on him.
Waterboarding all around. I’m outraged.
Chimpy whining on cspan.
Georgesimian @ 20
From the last thread…
The Republican Party are traitors to America. They practice a form of the “Leader cult” not unlike the NSDAP of Germany. They have to be exposed, indicted, convicted and sentenced. Let future generations know the Republican Party as the Orange Party for the prison garb so many have worn and will wear in the future.
Jesus – it took less than 30 seconds for Bush to invoke 9/11.
egregious, has anybody told you yet today what a sweet person you are?
Consider it done.
Shrub still flogging the dead talking points;
Embolden our enemies
Terra, Terra, Terra
Fight them there or here
etc. etc. etc ad nauseum.
do-si-do @ 27
Hello, Fox News? Hellooooo?? Was not this general aiding and abetting the enemy? Why does this general hate America?
Anybody? Helloooo??
itwasntme @ 31
Thank you. Good day for support, I’m so disgusted, literally, at what happened to the Tillman family. And that is even basically knowing ahead of the hearing.
can’t somebody write this idiot a new speech?
Last November the voters expressed a desire to change course in Iraq, I listened, and ignored them.
Oh, the CID man in his BLUES! Whoa!
Another family’s sobering story. Reported last night on ABC Nightly News. Master Sgt. Coontz was abandoned…hung himself…at Walter Reed. He hung for two days.
Families are contacting media, not only Congresspersons. This report by Bob Woodruff gives me hope that ABC News will give solid coverage to today’s Tillman-Lynch hearings.
Brace yourselves. This is tough to watch.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 18
Been preaching this to my 15-year old son. Told him to rebuff the recruiters at school. Told him to wait until we’re out of Iraq, and until we had a Dem president. Told him the consequences of a decision to join the military right now. He gets it. For that I am so thankful.
Waxman hearing back on:
Military men are up, being put under oath
Uh-oh! The military brass is at the table. How will the weather this assault?
Every single thing the Pentagon has said is a lie. One has to assume that the casualty figures are also lies.
Didn’t hear the preznit’s speech. What was the gist other than “hard work” ‘making progress” “9/11″?
Betrayed! Mary Tillman “what they did to Pat, what they have done to our nation” Betrayed!
The Tillmans are cutting through all of the Bush shit with the laser beams of truth! Shine the LIght Shine the LIght!
Please excuse the following rant, but WHY IN GOD’S NAME doesn’t a Dem get on the tube and just remind the American public that this war was sold to them as a SHORT-TERM war that would PAY FOR ITSELF??!!!
We are 5 years into this thing and Bush & Cheney are humping the “war of civilization” thing that could go on for generations! Why isn’t anybody except perhaps Helen Thomas calling him on that and REGULARLY?! Bush is doing it right now.
I’m sorry, but “we didn’t anticipate the bombing of the Golden Mosque” does NOT cut it, Condi!
Dems really need to hammer this point home!
itwasntme @ 40
Had to pop away for a bit. Under oath? Excellent!
Zee @ 43
Democrats are promoting failure. That’s pretty much it.
Veritas78 @ 42
Of course it is. Severely wounded have been evacuated from Iraq in hopes if they die, it will not be counted as an “Iraq” death, iirc from previous readings.
I expect the Bush Administration and the Pentagon to start saying that the Tillman Family should be “happy” that the military tried to present Tillman as a “hero” dying at the hands of the Taliban.
“The crueler the war gets, the crueler the attacks get on anybody who doesn’t salute or play the game,” he said. “And then one day, the people who are doing the attacking look around and they’ve used up their credibility.” ~ David Halberstam
EPU’d. I just want everyone to know that Tillman was to meet with Noam Chomsky before he died. This is relevant to me. Chomsky is like Kryptonite to Neo-Cons. This meeting could never be allowed to happen.
commondreams
As for Chomsky, whom Ann Coulter would undoubtedly label “treasonous,” Mary Tillman says a private meeting was planned between him and Pat after Pat’s return–a meeting that never took place, of course. Chomsky confirms this scenario. This was the real Pat Tillman: someone who, like the majority of this country, was doubting the rationale for war, distrusting his Commander in Chief and looking for answers. The real Pat Tillman, the one with three dimensions, must stick in the throat of the Bush-Coulter gang, a pit in the cherry atop their bloody sundae.
Don’t know about you guys, but that’s how I spend my day. “Hey, come on guys!!! Let’s work harder to fail!!! We can do it!!!” What a boob.
Gimble: DefDept acting inspecor Gen: (He’s a mush-mouth, so hard to follow opening statement)
Special Ops “routinely film high profile operations?”
Mandrake @ 45
Hammer it to who? These fuckers don’t care.
This is the same Inspector General who called the creation and dessimination of false intelligence that came out of Douglas Feiths Office of Special Plans “inappropriate”.
Christ! “inappropriate” applies to lies under oath about a bj.
“Inappropriate” does not apply to creating and dessiminating false intelligence used to start an unnecesary war that has resulted in hundreds of thousands of dead, injured, and displaced. That would qualify as criminal WAR CRIMES…CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY …not merely inappropriate.
WHERE IS PHASE II OF THE SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE. We are waiting!
BGen Johnson, CID commander. Offering sympathies to Tillmans before his statement.
Opened investigation 3/06 to determine if any criminality involve in Tillman death.
dakine01 @ 53
“high profile operations” is military speak for “propaganda.”
OT – Scarlet,
Where on the page should I look?
dakine01 @ 48
And note that they are dispersing the reports of deaths and casualties by several days if not weeks so that the actual statistics get concealed. If the are still “investigating” whether the death was due to combat, or suicide, or accident, or “friendly fire” they will delay the report…sometimes for weeks!
I don’t know much about the military. Will those of you more versed on how they work explain what’s being said?
Has Shrub brought up ’support the troops’ yet? Of course, my idea of support and his are … quite different. His appears to be ’send the troops to Iraq until they die’. Mine is ‘bring them home NOW’.
Zee @ 60
It’s called bullshit.
Brig Gen Criminal Invest. Div: “I can’t imagine their pain and grief (sniff, sniff)
I was sent to invest. if any criminal acts. During our invest, found that platoon was split in two, and was an accident by half platoon, thought others were enemy combatants.
No criminal acts, “tremendous degree of specificity”.
Taking questions.
(Waxman asks audience to keep quiet)
raven @ 62
Ahhh. THAT I can identify!
Specialist Bryon O’Neill: Worked under Tillman
Oh, he’s cute. (Is that wrong of me?)
Spc. O’Neal, US Army Ranger served w/Tillman:
also S White, Navy Seal served w/Tillman:
J. Robinson, Public Affirs guy for Army:
alll will be answering questions
Mandrake @ 45
Remember this 60 Minutes from right before the war with Armitage selling just that argument?
cbsnews.com link
It’s called bullshit.
Ahhh. THAT I can identify!
here’s a few more hints
FUBAR
fucked up beyond all recognition
WETSU
we eat this shit up
do-si-do @ 27
I am so outraged by this statement. how do I explain tears of rage to my coworkers? gotta take walk or something.
Zee @ 46
sad to think this is necessary. these guys take the toughest oath of all.
Wow. They shot at them in waves.
TiredFed @ 70
Yeah, I thought about that concept as I wrote that comment. We shouldn’t have to only believe our military or our government if they’re under oath.
Oh God Tillman was screaming his name asking them to stop shooting
O’Neill – I was 100% sure it was Friendly fire. The first thing after discovering Pat was dead, I told Sgt Anderson. And teh squad leader told him to be quiet.
Helen @ 74
This information has been public for quite a while. I am not trying to diminish the impact at all, people need to know.
Waxman: What happened? You were there. Last people to see Tillman alive.
O’Neal: platoon was split up, he was with Tillman, in Serial 1. Serial 2 was covering other ridge.
Waxman: what happened right before, then after Tillman killed.
O’Neal: Pat, I and Afghan, Pat left for info, when he got back before he could give me info, we came under fire. There was very little cover for us, were yelling, screaming, waving. Tillman popped a flair, smoke grenade to alert Serial 2. Firing stopped, we thot they recognized us as friendly, and came up, but Serial 2 fired again from better position. I was 100% positive it was friendly fire. First person I informed that it was friendly, and that Pat was dead. Sgt. Anderson, Medic, but squad leader said not to say anything. I informed Miller and Birch it was friendly fire. I was going into shock. Sgt. Jackson I told friendly fire.
O’Neill: Informed many hire-ups that night that it was FF. Waxman is naming them
Zee @ 66
oh gosh. no. he looks like my son. ok. the tears are starting again.
Waxman: (gave chain of command who learned about it, but I missed all the names)
itwasntme @ 80
It went to the top really quick, you can take that to the bank. Pat was a poster boy.
Pat Tillman “stop shooting” “stop shooting”. Where the fuck are their binoculars? Are they really unable to see on another?
Can you imagine how may innocent Iraq’s and Afghanis have been killed like this?
Uh-oh. Ordered not to tell him it was friendly fire.
Waxman: Within 72 hrs knew or were informed it was friendly three generals.
O’Neal: family needed to know what had happened. Ordered not to tell by Col. Bailey. Just gave me an order to to tell Pat’s bro, I would get in trouble.
Wax: you wrote statement about Silver Star statement.
TiredFed @ 78
(((((((TF))))))))
O’Neill: LT CL Bailey gave an order to not let Kevin Tillman know.
Waxman: Did you write the silver star statement?
O’Neill: I was asked, and I wrote something.
O’Neal “ordered not to tell them the truth”
Zee @ 66
my mama told me Satan was a handsome man. No offense to handsome men or TiredFed, just be careful out there!
(((((Love for TiredFed)))))
Zee @ 73
I took an oath a long time ago to uphold the Constitution, but not one to give my life for my country. I agree that Henry has to ask for any witnesses to swear to tell the truth at these hearings, it’s just sad to think he has to ask.
“Roger that, sir”
A new key response for us, doncha think?
Kathleen @ 82
They could see each other but not make an ID of them as friendly or hostile.
raven @
69
Ahhh. THAT I can identify!
here’s a few more hints
FUBAR
fucked up beyond all recognition
WETSU
we eat this shit up
You forgot SNAFU, Situation Normal, All Fucked Up
TiredFed @ 79
((((TF))))
thanks Zee and eg. been a tough week.
Go Hokies!
anybody still watching this hearing? it’s very compelling.
dmoore @ 91
Not so new to some of us, however. :})
How did Gumby Gimble get the Inspector General job?
Woah – Rep. Clay is demanding information relating to the death of a female soldier named Johnson – I believe this is the woman who “committed suicide” with her M-16 – with the wrong hand, after busting out a couple of her own teeth and sustaining bruises.
dakine01 @ 93
here’s a few more hints
FUBAR
fucked up beyond all recognition
WETSU
we eat this shit up
You forgot SNAFU, Situation Normal, All Fucked Up
Figured everyone knew that one! :)
Showing tape of Tillman memorial service by White
Playing short clip from Tillman memorial service.
look at how many people they have hurt with these lies.
What a bunch of hogwash spin! the spin goes on and on and on
Navy Seal White: I said what I thot was accurate, what I was told (he wasn’t there)
Kleenex!
(Stephen White resembles MY son.)
Unfortunately, those of us paying attention to this already take it personally. It’s those who prefer to put their heads in the sand who need this story to touch their hearts — presuming they still have them.
C’mon raven, You know to never ass-u-me (to paraphrase you) :})
Asking O’Neill about possible tampering with his statement. I’d think that would be prosecutable but IANAL.
dakine01 @ 107
guilty as charged
dakine01 @ 97
Braley to O’Neill: You were asked to write the silver star statement. When?
O’Neill: 26 or 27 of April – soon as we got back
Is Torrie Clarke, the Pentagon propagandist, scheduled to testify?
Rep Clay pushing Brig. General to pursue Johnson (?) case and FOIA request. Gen says he will respond as soon as he sees request.
OK, the out is that O’Neill never signed an affirmation on his statement.
“Roger that Fubar Sir”
Brailey: Re silver star statement: did someone tamper with your statement?
Oneal: I would be writing statement.
Brialey: did someone tell you what to write?
O’Neal: did it on computer and left.
Br: You didn’t print out and read? did you sign that you reviewed and verified?
O’N: no.
O’Neill; I was told to type up my recollection, and sent back to my platoon and that was the last that I heard of it.
Braley: Digital format – no on asked you to review it?
Braley: Ultimate statement in Silver Star
IIRC, a soldier comitting suicide is not counted anywhere….especially not among the dead in Iraq.
What’d I say?
Gang — I would very much appreciate it if everyone would pop over for a minute and thank Tom Matzzie for coming to chat with us today. He and a number of others are trying to push for change on the Iraq mess — in a way that has a very realistic chance of seeing some movement in a few places. I like to encourage action when and where I can, so if you can thank him for being here to talk about it, I would really appreciate it!
In the world of theobotics, there is no non-compliance, and if there were J-1-type killer christian generals anywhere in the Tillman command chain, the mere act of allowing his influence to go unchecked would be tantamount to allowing Satan to call off Armageddon.
We are talking neutron-star density here. Tillman was directly or indirectly killed by a totalitarian ideology that uses dumbed down tools to conduct it’s deadly business. The tool testifies.
What do we expect from Leo Strauss and Irving Kristol? Liberalism?, Constitutional Rights? The right to inform and so save your comrades in the field fighting a criminal’s war?
The smoldering motive is before us.
_
Braley: IG did you investigate who changed O’Neill statement?
Braley: statements says “enemy moved closer to position” did you wirte that?
O: No
Braley; Did you write that you were getting fire from enemy?
O’Neill: No
TiredFed @ 113
Yeah General don’t do it until you get the request. Far be it from you to do the right thing for once in your life, without having to be ordered. We all know you can’t think for yourself. I’m sickened by our military. Fucking sheep!!!!
Eyewitness acct was changed. Spec. ONeal wrote the first draft. someone added/changes it later.
Braley: (is quoting from O’Neals statement) Did you write these statemt?
O’Neal: No.
Gimble mumbler: “we sometimes revise” but we didn’t know who did it in this case (paraphr)
Brailey: Is it SOP to revise? Who would have been most likely make changes to statmt?
Gimble: We couldn’t determine, I’d prefer not to, somewhere somebody did keyboard changes.
Gimble: DOD: We didn’t do it. Can’t determine who changed it. Don’t need signatures on Silver Star statement.
Braley: Who would have been most likely to make changes?
Gimble: I do not recall, I do not know. Nope, I haven’t a clue
DOD IG – somewhere on the chain of command changes were made. on a laptop? emailed? IT specialist needs to look into that.
Gimble: got it as hard copy, did not know who might have been respons for revisions, it was two years before. Did no investigation.
Gimble and that would be “inappropriate”
Braley: Did you have an investigation into the hard drive? See who got on the computer afterwards?
Gimble: No; it was two years before – we maybe could not track down the computer
Gimble “it would be a good thing” What a fucking patsy!
They’ll try to lay this off on some flunky, what shit.
O’Neal: Noticed blood pooling, thot I was shot. Realized Pat was shot, got no response, there was a lot of blood everywhere, looked at Pat, slumped on ground, covered in blood, realized he was shot in head, there wasn’t much left of him, I kind of blanked out. Somebody told me to pick up my helmet, chucks of my memory come and go away. Next I remember, in a room telling that Pat had been killed by friendly fire.
raven @ 132
Mystery fingers on a missing computer…how convenient!
“Just . following . orders…”
George W. Bush corrupts and debases everything he touches.
here’s a cite for the Pfc Lavena Johnson case:
waveflux php
Blender @ 136
good job Blender.
Thanks a lot Helen. Appreciate it…again!
OT Cheney on CNN bashing Reid
Is it me? – Have there been no republican questions in this round? Does anyone have a wide view to see if they are even there?
evabaruk @ 140
I thought he was having a medical crisis?
Bailey23 @ 96
I can’t stop.
Helen @ 141
In Bunker’s Bunker.
Zee @ 141
One man’s crisis is another man’s opportunity…it’s all perspective ya know?
Zee @ 142
His soul transfer was unsuccesful.
the new soul rejected him.
I’m having trouble blogging after O’Neal’s statement.
committee member asking how high up the report went.
Rep. Betty McColllum asking tough questions, with a lot of attitude, I might add.
[So, if something happens that “routine”, you don’t check up on it?”
Where did you get the Lynch video tape?
Oh, that was from a special ops group.
(Ya think? I’m gonna start swearing here, I’m so angry!)
BAHAHAHWAHAHAHAH
Helen @ 140
dont see any
McCullum: How high up did this investigation go?
Gimble: The day Rumsfeld
So Kucinich should come on back out, no?
So if Cheney’s well enough to be in front of CNN cameras, is he well enough for Kucinich to start the impeachment process?
Gimble is an idiot. No wonder he’s the head of IG in this administration.
dakine01 @ 152
Ditto – this is embarrassing for him (if he can be embarrassed)
Media in the hearing room?
Repubes showing their desperation. First they trot out Bush, then Chee-knee. The scripts not workin’ any more boys….
CNN – Reid will have a follow-up statement shortly concerning Cheney’s blathering.
Young officers seeming to be honest.
Old coots playing the Bushco Two Step.
Helen @ 153
That’s how the misadministration likes ‘em. I offer Abu as the most recent example.
TO; dakine01,
More on McGovern
latimes link
Prairie Sunshine @ 155
Good point. Both B&C making statements in the same day. They are desperate!
Gimble is the dud given the responsiblity to investigate the Office of Special Plans by Republican Senator Pat Roberts. Talk about an inside job. The Pentagon investigating the Pentagon.
Gimble calls the creation and dessimination of False WMD intelligence by Douglas Feith and the Office of Special plans “inappropriate”
More like CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY
Takes a congresswoman over six months to get a response? But it takes him a couple of days to two weeks? Did I miss something?
The media MUST ask Perino if Bush watched this. Considering he didn’t watch Abu the follow-up question should be “What the fuck does he do all day long?”
McCollum D: how high up it went as far as people knowing it was friendly fire.
Gimble: (telling the proper way it should have been done – non responsive to McC question).
Gimble: Rummy unaware, interviewed on the day he left office.
McC: who is accountable for false reports?
Gimble: Gen Wallace to assess. ( This guy can hardly be understood he mumbles fast)
Helen @ 163
Hey, come on! His BMI is around 30 thanks to those bike rides. Bike rides are hard work.
McCollum: To paraphrase: I’m underwhelmed and I’ll read what you say but don’t expect much.
Today will be the day we see whether the MSM are Bush stenos or real journalists. I’ve been watching ABC and last night’s report by Bob Woodruff is a perfect tie-in to today’s hearing.
Psssst, to media lurkers…you all were handwringing over how Imus did his job. Now we’re looking at how you do yours.
Give us more Woodruff caliber reporting. You gotta know David Bloom would if he were here.
twolf1 @ 155
Give em hell Harry!
Zee @ 165
And he likes hard work becuz it is so hard to work hard so he has to ride which is hard work to avoid having to work hard at all that hard work.
Gimble: memo didn’t go to WH. Stopped with “3 generals”. Kinsinger, Singer, DOD, said don’t tell family.
Maybe there aren’t any Repugs there because it makes it look like those crazy Demos (who don’t support or care for the troops) are behind this inquiry?
‘Cause why, only loonies like us follow Our Governmnet Oversigt Hearings? Arrrrgggh!
Ooohhh. Big Waxman asking about emails going to the WH. Methinks something sticks in his craw! *g*
Yes Inspector General Gimble who has been held accountable in regard to the lies spoon fed to the American people about WMD’s. Why is Feith, Wurmser, Rhode, etc still walking free?
When will Phase II of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence be completed?
Republican Senator Pat Roberts efforts to delay, divert and destroy the investigation of pre-war intelligence should be investigated!!
Gimble: we didn’t look at that becuz we thought it closed issue. Once again to paraphrase: I’m an idiot (I=Gimble)
Wax: Pres wanted info for speech about Tillman. P4 memo said to avoid mention of friendly fire death
itwasntme @ 175
Which the preznit did avoid mentioning.
itwasntme @ 169
Oh of course not! Why would the WH be interested in a fratricide involving one of the most famous troops deployed to the ME? Give me a fuckin’ break!
Sarbanes: The death of Tillman was a tragedy but the travesty was what followed- an impulse to coverup what happened.
Gimble seems to be as smart as Gonzales…Tool
Mary Tillman now on CNN.
Sarbanes D:you said errors in reporting within chain of command bear ultimate respon for inaccuracies and “misperceptions”.
Gimble: Army didn’t handle it well. I don’t see it as a cover-up.
HAR HAR HARDY HAR HAR
Sarbanes: To Gimble: You talk about “perception” of concealment in your report? Do you think this is perception or actual
Gimble: Not handled well, but not a cover-up.
dakine01@176
I think its more accurate that he danced around it.
No well handled but not a cover-up. Is there an echo in here?
Sarbanes: perception of concealment or actual concealment?
Gimble: mistakes were made but not intentional. Errors of omission not comission.
He’s jerking off.
Didnt handle it well…nothing here, move on…mistakes made
Arggggh!!
Gimble: Just a boatload of honest mistakes.
Thomas Gimble just said “Mistakes were made.”
Is that the new Dog Ate My Homework BS?
Geez, how far does Karl’s influence go? (sorry I asked that, but…again, Geez!)
not a cover up? where has he been? doesnt everyone know there was a coverup of what happened to Pat Tillman? and the truth only just now is coming out? the most truth was told today by Spec. ONeal.
dmoore @ 188
It’s becoming more and more clear that the media sound bite for everything should be DogAteGate as previously proposed.
Sarbanes: We want to believe that the army will act within procedures and protocols. But there were two and three instances where procedures were not followed. Hard to believe that this was accidental
I am SO sick of the “mistakes were made” crap that people under oath think completely justify what went wrong.
did I just hear “yes mistakes were made”?
I hereby nominate this as the Repub campaign slogan for 2008.
seems to me it’s time for them to stop trying to look innocent and decide who they’re going to throw under the bus.
Prairie Sunshine @ 166
Hardballs Chris Matthews is the only one asking challenging questions about the endless claims about Iran’s “alleged” nuclear weapons program. He hammers the “cakewalk in Iraq” folks when they repeat these unsubstantiated claims.
This morning on the Diane Rehms show on the topic of Wolfowitz Diane allowed a Congressman to get away with making this claim about Iran. She did not stop him, she did not challenge him. Most in the MSM have allowed these unproven claims about Iran repeated over and over again the last three years. Deja Vu
Gee, I wish Sarbanes was a more dynamic speaker. But he just nailed it: It strains credulity.
But how much credulity has to be strained before it breaks American patience?!?
This is outrageous, among a whole lot of outrageous.
OK. You admit mistakes were made. Good starting point. Who made the mistakes? What are the consequences of the mistakes? Who is accountable for the mistakes? What are the outcomes of the mistakes?
You have to go back in time when everybody
thought that there would no Congressional hearings… culture of corruption…
Another fucking cover-up…
just got home. this guy gimble is a complete and total idiot!
Sarbanes: Assuming it was an honest mistake SO MANY people knew what happened. Why did no one fix the mistake?
Sarbanes: 3 deficient reports, inaccurate PR releases. We want to think army would act according to rules, but strange 2-3 incidents of inaccuracy,seems unlikely accidental. Why wasn’t faulty process fixed?
Gimble: That’s pretty correct. Should have designated unknown.
Sarbanes: highest level knew it was inaccurate, should have gotten it on trach.
Gimble: our report says we found no reasonable reason form wasn’t followed.
Wax: you askedRummy if he received memo, and he said no. Not believeable 3 generals sent report up, but he didn’t know.
Gimble: (I think gimble is saying that Rummy needed more info?)
Another smoking e-mail
dakine01 @ 190
Are you near LA, dear? Greg Palast event Saturday evening.
Prairie Sunshine @ 167, C-SPAN might be enough for this to go viral. My mother, who died in ‘98 (b. circa 1920,) was a serious C-SPAN junky and several of her friends were too. I’m guessing there are plenty of thoughtful people who vote watching this today.
CNN keeps trying to run other stuff, but aired the brother’s statement in its entirety. That must have increased C-SPAN’s audience.
dmoore @ 188
Gonzo carved into the desk for quick reference.
Why aren’t the 3 Generals at this hearing?
Bustednuckles @ 205
Tee Hee. Funny Guy/Girl/whichever
OT
Rush is playing “Barack the Magic Negro” Folks on Kos are writing letters to the FCC
dailykos link
Sorry, pups. Meant to type “Greg” Palast. [Modnote: fixed]
Bustednuckles @ 204
BK
OMG! That is hysterical (and prolly factual)!
Mae @ 198
This is the guy that Republican Pat Roberts j the inside job of the Pentagon investigating the Pentagons Office of Special Jobs…Douglas Feith. This is the guy who called Feith’s actions of creating and dessiminating false WMD intelligence “inappropriate”
Ouch says Feith!
Hello Senator Rockerfeller we are waiting for Phase II of the SSCI. Will the Democrats hold anyone accountable for the false pre-war intelligence? Or do you folks need a b j to investigate like the Repulican controlled congress?
Investigate WMD INtelligence Snowjobs!
Not b Jobs!
Harry Reid live on cnn now…
dmoore @ 203 asks:
No, I’m sitting down in the cloudy day of a south Texas Tuesday (San Antone to be exact.
Waxman: Kensinger, Abaized, Brown received P4 memo. Three generals didn’t send this memo to Rumsfeld.
Gimble: I can’t explain. They wanted to lay out facts. Investigations still going on.
Waxman: Did you request docs from Rumsfled
Gimble: We have a letter.
Honda: March review. Matters related to Corp. Tillman’s death.Abuzaid was in Afghanistan And unaware of Pat Tillman’s manner of death? Were you aware of visit?
Gimble: We were unaware of manner of death until 10 days after.
Honda: Platoon commander was not aware of manner of death?
Gimble: He got shot pretty badly.
Honda: Guys with Tillman knew.
Bustednuckles @ 205
another fire pup classic!
Bustednuckles @
205
Hmmm. Maybe we can get him for destruction of Gov’t property?
Gimble: original report was destroyed…
Bay State Librul @ 206
Took the 5th (and not of bourbon).
snowbird42 @ 207
They are officially falling apart, loosing it, going off the deep end. I never bought into the fact that this would actually happen, but go figure. I am happy to be soooo wrong.
was the Abizaid visit to Afghanistan the same visit that Mary Tillman referred to in her testimony? where he visited Pat Tillman’s platoon commander?
Going meta for a moment, but I got the same feeling I’ve got now when the Schiavo mess was going down. Could this be a turning point in public revulsion? The pain here is so clear, and the anger is is so genuine.
I know not to keep thinking “This is the straw,” but this is a heavy, dank straw.
Gimble not aware of Abizaid visit to Afghanistan. maybe he should have asked Mary Tillman how to investigate her son’s death.
O geez, here’s Shays to apologize again…
Honda: Capt Scott wrote report that something possibly criminal occurred. How did you conclude that nothing hokey occurred.
Gimble: we didn’t have exact report. But we had some documentation to make conclusions.
OK, here comes the dickhead!
putting Shays on mute to listen to Harry Reid
dakine01 @ 213
No, I’m sitting down in the cloudy day of a south Texas Tuesday (San Antone to be exact.
Well, okay, Greg’s tour is National.
PJ Evans, or other LA FireDogs… write me at tellblondie@webmail.ca.rr.com. Maybe we can have a face-to-face Dog thing.
Thanks to all for indulging my OT (but not really) comments. (peace & love, y’all)
shays now – he’s so compassionate. what a tool.
Veritas78 @ 221
It takes different straws at different points for different folks. All we can do is keep on shining the lights.
AAAAIIIIEEEE! THE LIGHTZ!!! IT HURTZZZ!!!! IT HURTZZZZ!!!! AAAAIIIIEEEE!!!!
Is Shays actually blaming Tillman for his own death?
Hoo-boy, and he spent the Viet Nam years in the Peace Corps.
shumer on CNN.com. supposed to be Reid. oh. I see. it’s tag team.
Oh, he was in the Peace Corps when his COLLEAGUES were in Vietnam. Who the hell are you calling a colleague you punk?
Shays: was busy with something else, but I’m back.
Shays: I was in the Peace Corp when my colleagues were in Vitenam. so I know NOTHING about war – but FF happens all the time, right? What is the penalty when this happens?
Blender @ 230
Of course! How dare Tillman get himself caught in front of those friendly bullets!
Shays whine: friendly fire happens in any war. Thank you for enlightening the unwashed masses here. I had no idea.
Patty Murray on now. shushing Bush. Playing the mommy card. that ought to get his goat.
I’m interested in the answer to Shay’s question.
Shays (R): 2 motives here by you: you feel bad kill one of your own (yes by O’Neal) 2. Tillman was well-known, might be another factor (not really by ?)
Shays: friendly fire happens in every war (Yes). What is punishmnt for person covering up ff incident?
Brig Gen Johnson: Not my area of expertise.
Gimble: no set punishment. We refer to commanding gen,
Shays: what penalty if knowing ff? Lose their job?
White: case-by-case basis, no standard for punishmnet for false info.
Helen @ 233
The penalty should be to listen to you asshole.
OOOH Cummings bringing up Obstruction of Justice!
And the BGen is agreeing should be looked into.
Uh-oh. US Attorney?
Shays: I was a peace corps volunteer during Vietnam. I know nothing about war. But friendly fire occurs. What’s the correct practice for punishing, penalty for fratricide. Is there a penalty for coverup? is there a standard penalty?
Gimble: you have to find out what the situation is first. It’s case by case basis.
Mr. Cummings: Is something like this called obstruction of justice?
Johnson: Yes sir.
Cummings: a similar thing to Obstruction of Justice in Military?
Yes
Cummings: is there equiv of US attorney to look into it, are there enuf facts here?
TiredFed @ 236
I LOVE when they play the Mommy card! Seems to be the single most effective way to get his goat. That really should be the new dem strategy: let the women do the talking in their most maternalizing voice!
Oh bad things. The enlisted guys, Spec O’Neill and Chief Master Petty White are OFF the RES. And good on them.
Whoa. My military let me down. That’s huge.
Cummings: Did it affect your trust in military.
Stephen White: (paraphrase) yes.
Rep. Cummings, making the point about incompetence and credibility.
These will be the ghosts of the Bush admin.
“It’s okness”!
Nola Sue @ 244
And speak V-E-R-Y S-L-O-W-L-Y so he can understand the big words. Then hand him one of those safety lollipops afterwards.
White: My military let me down. I want my two boys to know exactly what military did (paraphrase)
Cummings: we’re trying to figure out how trust was lost so young people will join military.
White: It does not sit well with me that I made false statements at Tillman memorial.
Cummings: we wish you godspeed.
White is breaking my heart. Integrity matters.
How refreshing.
Cummings: How do you feel about your role? We have wonderful people like you who want to be part of the military – how do we figure how the trust was lost so young people want to join?
White: My role; I’m the who who told them incorrectly how he died (cuz was told the wrong thing) Need leadership by example
Cummings: How do we restore trust?
Stephen White: I told the public how he died (it was incorrect?) and I feel horrible. It should be Leadership by example. *Fire Bush*
Helen @ 219
Dunno, sounds like Rush is setting himself up for an Imus moment so he can scream censorship and play the victim of the VLWC. I can see it coming. Ah well. Let the games continue.
Mandrake @ 254
As long as they fire his ass he can scream all he wants.
itwasntme @ 216
the niger documents were false,deleted the e-mails, the original report was destoyed. IMPEACH IMPEACH
Helen @256
I’m all for that. It’s just that I can’t comprehend why Imus got canned and Rush is still working.
The time to “Cheney” Rush is long overdue!
[Modnote: please do not re-quote more than twice, thanks]
Mandrake @ 257
And that’s why I am starting to buy into the falling apart thing. They should STFU until this blows over.
Mandrake @ 258
And Rush calls Bush and Cheney war criminals when?
CNN interview with Jessica Lynch upcoming.
Omigawd, these guys are starting to be journalists! Jamie McIntyre painfully still stenoing the Pentagon line. But signs of cracking.
Restoring honor and integrity to the MSM…one journo at a time….
Waxman asking about the “they are not Christians” comment. Is there a penalty; conduct unbecoming?
We have a “cloud” over the VEEP
We have a “cloud” over the JUSTICE DEPT
We have a “cloud” over the ARMY
Three clouds and you are out?
Bay State Librul @ 264
Brilliant!
I didn’t know buses had as many wheels as have come off this bus.
ouch – Wax just said it wasn’t a mistake – deliberate
I filed a complaint. Why is Rush being so overt?
Attention or a challange or cover for the WH to deflect.
Waxman – took a lot of energy and planning to put these stories out and to not correct them and to hide the evidence. A clear deliberate abuse. Why is it so hard to find out who is responsible?
WAXMAN IS KICKING ASS!
Jessica Lynch, “I was here for the Tillman’s” “I am not the hero they tried to make me out to be”. Yea you are trooper.
Waxman asking who Lt. Col. Robinson spoke with in press: Dana Priest, Susan Schmidt (Ha!)
To Gimble did you investigate the derogatory comments made about Tillman. Is there a penalty for making derogatory statements about deceased servicemen and families
Gimble: I was shocked, but nada nada
BrigGen Johnson(?): Conduct unbecoming to an officer
Waxman: It is quite unbecoming. Also there was a conscience intent to doctor the records. Mr. Gimble, why is it so hard to find who’s accountable for all this?
Waxman “why is it so hard to hold anyone accountable gentleman?”
Now what?
General Wallace is in charge of this investigation and the final report.
Committee hearing adjourned. A very sad sad day, but
Good day sunshine…
wasnt Gimble supposed to get the final response? he’s the acting IG for crying out loud. who’s investigating now? didnt catch that.
itwasntme @ 275
thanks. now who the heck is General Wallace?
Zee @ 274
“Oh what a spin, lovin that spin that I’m in”
TiredFed @ 277
One of the ones taking cover under the 5th Admendment no doubt. Fuckin’ pussy!
Helen @ 260
Oh, I have said on here quite a few times that the wheels are coming off, most definitely.
I guess that accounts for all the squawking and screeching of the right wing media whores which were covered in the late-nite and morning FDL posts.
As all this goes down, I keep having a vision of a little Sean Hannity cartoon character screaming and blabbering and, like in the old Warner Bros. cartoons, he gets smaller and smaller and his voice squeakier and teenier until he just disappears in a poof of putrid dust. Then the little cleaning lady, perhaps Nancy Pelosi in an apron, comes along behind and sucks it up with a vaccum cleaner.
Bush and CheneHelen @ 163
The Chimp and Cheney are both on the waves today because they want to smother this hearing. It’s Rove’s bright, shiny object again. The last thing they want is for the Tillman coverup to be the headline story on the news. That goes right to their red base. They are going to protect themselves with that 30 percent at all costs. They are the equivalent of Hitler’s ‘fortresses’, though a lot of good that did him.
kdh22 @ 279
Kathleen @ 273
The Bush Administration: The most incompetent and corrupt administration that was never held accountable.
Henry’s got some more fireworks all set up for tomorrow. stay tuned. oversight.house.gov
AHHHGH.
Specter licking his balls in public again.
Raven
They have a HUGE problem with timetables don’t they? How long have they known that they lied? And Wallace is working quickly? My god, I want to SCREAM!!!!!
TiredFed @ 277
Wallace is the commandant of the Training and Doctrine Corps, and former commander of V Corps in Iraq. He’s been delegated by the acting Sec. of the Army to investigate whether or not charges are warranted based on the IG report.
“It’s not about fame. By and large, the more famous you are, the less of a journalist you are. Besides, fame does not last. At its best, it is about being paid to learn. For fifty years, I have been paid to go out and ask questions. What a great privilege to be a free reporter in a free society, to be someone whose job is a search for knowledge. What a rare chance to grow as a person.” . . .David Halberstam
Hello BOb Woodward!
“Wow, a journalist who understood that he wasn’t the story, the story was the story. Take note, Beltway crowd.”
leolabeth @ 204
You’re right. My mom, b. 1916 and still in good health and sound mind, watches this stuff like a hawk. Never got over FDR’s death, though.
Now, one of the striking things about this hearing is that it is something the `pugs could have done at any time. Apart from the two major assholes on the committee, Issa and Mica, there was general agreement that Lynch and the Tillmans were badly treated (although all the `pugs shied away from the merest suggestion that the stories put out were politically motivated by the WH).
What all this tells me is that the `pugs just wouldn’t fuckin’ do it. Creeps.
Cspan will undoubtedly rebroadcase this for anybody who comes here to graze at this post later in the day and is interested.
Cspan and blogs are the last bastions of freedom. I say one more time, my good Republicans – where are you?
Henry generally does not televise business meetings, but the one he is having tomorrow may be an exception. stay tuned at CSPAN3 and the House Oversight Committee website http://oversight.house.gov/
code Pink as someone here at FDL said earlier keeping the issues on the front pages.
John McCain “don’t Bomb Iran”
youtube link
Bustednuckles @ 285
Ew. I realize this was meant figuratively, but, mburph!, I feel my nausea returning!
Knut Wicksell @ 289
Good gravies! She’s 91! Go mom!
dakine01 @ 185
The burning of the Uniform was NOT an error of OMISSION!
The altering of the Silver Star citation was not an error of OMISSION!
This whole situation is filled with acts of COMMISSION…just as the Jessica Lynch “story” was a contrivance to build “heros” for the wars and to distort the actual events on the ground…and to hide military incompetance.
CNN is leading with the Tillman story. Knock me over with a feather.
FYI, New thread
Okay, let’s take a step back for a moment and look at what just happened.
The purpose of this hearing was to lay the groundwork as to who was responsible for turning the Lynch and Tillman incidents into pieces of propaganda that would justify and further the continuance of these wars.
Propaganda has always been an essential part of motivating a populace to do something they wouldn’t do on their own (like get yourself shot to hell by people you know nothing about and have no personal conflict with) – what Waxman’s committee was doing was showing that there are two highly personal, publicized and *proveable* instances where members of the government falsified information, created “heroes” that served their purposes and fed it to the public so as to further their cause for war in order to gain popular support.
Tillman may have been murdered.A high profile NFL athlete coming home to talk to Chomsky.Then going on ESPN to tell young republicanlarve that George Bush is a war criminal. Ain’t happening,cluck,cluck.
or maybe I’ve reading too much Chomsky lately. gah!
snowbird42 @ 208
More effective to the advertisers. In fact, people should play the tape to the “deciders” and ask them if they don’t think it’s racist, and if they really want to be associated with such a “parody”. If they “do” get it on the record (perhaps carry a little cell phone recorder into the interview.
THEN make a bigger deal of it! Have people go into stores and bring the products up to the counter and say “I would have bought this…except that they support the racist Rush Limabaugh”. And then leave!
Having to put the stuff back makes a big impression on the staff and managers…who then refer to it to the mucky-muck upstairs.
Mandrake @ 235
Which is one of the reasons Shay’s went into the Peace Corps rather than Vietnam, I’m sure!
Kevin Tillman strongly implicates that the lie and coverup of his brother’s death was due to the contemporaneous publication of SY Hersh’s article on Abu Ghraib (and the photos shown on tv by CBS News).
Why is that missing from the AP article cited here?
Just heard Warren Ulney and a reporter from the CSM avoid that issue too on his To the Point radio show on PBS radio.
And no one’s brought it up here in over 300 comments.
Am I reading too much into this?
propagandee @ 304
LA Times website:
Tillmans blast White House
Kevin Tillman, the brother of the NFL star killed in Afghanistan, says the facts of Pat Tillman’s death were twisted to distract from Abu Ghraib.
Why was Tillman’s diary/notebook burned?
P J Evans @ 305
Thanks, P J.
That’s one account. I’ll be interested to see how the rest of the MSM covers it. Looks like the AP made a deliberate effort to exclude it.
jayt @ 297
NPR too.
leolabeth @ 308
First repor by Blitzer didn’t mention Abu Ghraib. But in the second hour, Pentagon reporter Jamie MacIntyre (sp?) ran the video clip where brother Kevin did.
Mandrake @ 280
BadlyEPU’d I am sure but I just loved this image!!!!
I also think the female to bush strategy has a whole lot going for it.
Paul Krugman says Bush is holding our troops hostage in Iraq to get supplemental funding for the war. He’s right. But the hostage Bush has held for the longest is the truth. It’s been years since these events occurred. And yet we still don’t know who the fabricator(s) were. The press should ask every day when Bush will release the truth from captivity. Has Bush ever told the truth in his entire life?
raven @
69
Ahhh. THAT I can identify!
here’s a few more hints
FUBAR
fucked up beyond all recognition
WETSU
we eat this shit up
Don’t forget SNAFU
Situation Normal — All Fucked Up
Helen @
163
He does what jerks do best, jerk off.
Helen @
219
After clicking the link and listening to the so-called “parody” by Paul Shanklin immitating Al Sharpton, I’m speechless.
I din’t think I ever would be speechless.
Jesus H. Christ on a Bicycle. sick, Sick, SIck, SICk, SICK!!!!!!!!!!