
Yes, it's all Rosie O'Donnell's fault:
O'Donnell wasn't the only one to suggest religion had influenced the justices' approach. The Philadelphia Inquirer published a cartoon Friday entitled "Church and State" that featured the five Catholic members of the court wearing bishop miters.
Joseph Cella, president of the Catholic-based organization Fidelis, called the cartoon "venomous, terribly misleading and blatantly anti-Catholic."
"The Supreme Court did not 'follow marching orders' from the Vatican or the bishops in the United States," Cella said. "Instead, the court deferred to deliberative judgment of the people's elected representatives protected by the Constitution."
But academics, including the former dean of the University of Chicago Law School, also have said the Catholic faith of the five justices influenced their thinking in the case Gonzales vs. Carhart.
"All five justices in the majority in Gonzales are Catholic," wrote Geoffrey Stone, now a professor at the law school, in a faculty blog. "The four justices who either are Protestant or Jewish all voted in accord with settled precedent. It is mortifying to have to point this out. But it is too obvious, and too telling to ignore."
Stone said it was "sad" that the justices in the majority had "failed to respect the fundamental difference between religious belief and morality."
University of Chicago Law School professor Richard Garnett wrote a critical response, saying Stone "misses the mark" in suggesting the justices imposed their religious views on people who do not share their beliefs. Garnett earlier had strongly criticized the Inquirer cartoon.
Garnett said what troubled him was the claim that the justices voted to uphold the ban because they are Catholics "and not because they think, as intelligent and engaged lawyers, that the Constitution does not disable legislatures entirely from regulating what most people (not just Catholics, fideists, and sexists) regard as a particularly gruesome abortion procedure."
As Dr. Suzanne Poppema noted yesterday on the Warren Olney show, she doubts that there are any abortion procedures that would not be considered gruesome and unacceptable to the right-to-lifers. Medicine is icky, and the notion that women just sashay in and order up a D&E like they would a mocha java latte is nuts. It's a rarely performed procedure and only a doctor would know if it was medically necessary. And to classify Kennedy's sexist, patronizing language as that of an "intelligent engaged lawyer" is a bit of a stretch.
I don't know for certain if the five Catholic justices were influenced by their religious beliefs, nobody can, but it's perfectly reasonable to speculate that their decisions — which in Kennedy's case seemed highly emotional, irrational and buying into extreme mysoginistic right-wing canards — may have been influenced by the fact that they subscribe to a faith that thinks abortion is both murder and a mortal sin. It's not anti-Catholic bigotry and those who want to shut down the conversation by screaming that it is just don't want to argue on the merits because really, they probably have none.
This cartoon posted with express permission to Firedoglake from Tony Auth of the Philadelphia Inquirer.



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C H O I C E !!!
Jane, you will love this Sargent cartoon: Sargent. It gets to the point.
It’s not that they’re Catholic. It’s that they’re all fundamentalist Catholics. And they’re all male fundamentalist Catholics.
The only bigotry here is the anti-woman bigotry. They mustn’t be left to their own choices.
and aren’t we glad we have all that dry powder now.
Today, whyy’s radio times discussed the issue. PA State Representative Tom Yewcik was saying that he supports requiring women seeking an abortion to view sonograms of the fetus. he said it was for “educationla purposes”, but when the host asked why, Yewcik couldn’t explain himself. he is a truly odious man who kept babbling about sanctity of life,.
You can listen to the show online: listenign to Yewcik get smacked around by pretty much every single caller was a pleasure. He also claimed that intact D&E is NEVER medically necessary, only to be countered by a caller who had an intact D&E, for a baby she wanted but wasn’t going to live.
Interstingly, he mentioned the effectiveness of adoption, so in a moment I’m goign to call an ask how many kids HE’s adopted personally. The answer is almost certainly zero.
It is obvious that Kennedy could not seperate in his mind science and sentiment. Science seems to lose out with this administration and it is affecting the court too.
women either
(a) have choice
(b) have forced pregnancies
end of discussion …
any quetions?
sorry Jane. you probably don’t ever want to hear that lame excuse again.
I suspect their religious views did influence their votes.
I wouldn’t go as far as saying they do what they’re told – but the RC hierarchy has been pretty open about pressuring politicians to vote ‘the right way’ rather than with the constitutional rights of their constituents in mind.
And the RC hierarchy is assuming that church members support the official positions. My understanding is that those official views are held by a minority.
(I like that cartoon.)
OT.
Anyone else know Nancy Pelosi has her own youtube channel? Good stuff! Lots of Tillman hearing posts.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=NancyPelosi
How fair can it be when you consider yourself to be choosing between Heaven and Hell?
As far as the Catholic Justices are concerned, they did vote along settled precedent.
radiofreewill @ 11
Huh? How exactly did they do that? Settled precedent is that such decisions are a matter of doctor-patient privacy.
How exactly does Kennedy’s majority opinion even address that settled precedent?
Will open-heart surgery next be denied on the grounds that it is life-threatening and “gruesome”? (Have you ever seen one on television?) Since when does “gruesome” have any standing when it comes to making medical decisions? You wanna talk about gruesome, let’s talk about the side effects associated with any number of drugs that have been approved by the FDA — many of which are still on the market. Let’s talk about how grossly understaffed the USDA inspectors are and how limited their authority is in Bushworld. That’s gruesome.
btw, it’s “sashay”. “Sachet” is something you use to make your underwear drawer smell nice. Sashay is what you do to let folks know you’ve got sweet-smelling drawers. ;-)
Jane,
You’re right, we can never know if the justices in the majority voted their religious beliefs rather than their legal judgment, but it is certainly eerie the way the voting broke down with all the Catholics voting to overturn precedent and all the non Cathloics voting to maintain precedent.
It certainy LOOKS suspicious.
looseheadprop @ 15
Time to check Kennedy’s ass for scourge marks.
Brava, Jane, and I also think this is worth noting:
Slothrop @ 3
It’s a valid point to note that if the majority were all fundamentalist protestants, you’d get the same result, or worse.
hang the traitors at 7 — On point comment. But we don’t allow violence in the comments, and that includes in nicknames on posts. If you could modify your nickname, I would very much appreciate it. Otherwise, our moderators are going to have to pull comments and I hate for them to have to do that. Thanks.
Just out of curiosity, was “asscribe” a deliberate typo? It could also be used in reference to decisions handed down by jurists who have their heads lodged firmly in their posterior(s).
The cartoon says it all! It isn’t venomous, it is so true that it’s hilarious.
“sashay”, I think, Jane………
You are right on the money…. using the word ‘gruesome’ is deliberately emotive. Personally, I find needles being stuck intop someone else in front of me very gruesome, and a bloody great surgical slit for taking out a gall bladder gruesome too. Removing three charred bodies from a burnt-out armoured car was pretty gruesome too.
I believe the five justices in question are, or have claimed to be, practising their roman faith. In which case, surely, they should have recused themselves as unable to separate Church and State as far as they themselves were concerned.
Since time immemorial there have been abortions. (Check the Ancient Egyptians!) If some form of abortion is not legal it will continue to be available, illegal, unregulated and unsupervised, conducted by the unscrupulous.
I am really rather religious but I find it easy to consider an unviable foetus not a human being, but then I began on farms where one gets quite realistic about life quite quickly..
I am interested to know how far the loonies will go. Should not only the doctor and the mother, but also all the accessories before and after the fact be convicted of murder and in death penalty states, be executed?
radiofreewill @ 11
I wonder if they got specific, secret orders? The threat of excommunication would be an effective persuader.
“” Cella said, “Instead, the court deferred to deliberative judgment of the people’s elected representatives protected by the Constitution.”"
Let’s dissect:
“court deferred to…” Wait a minute, they are an independent body.
“deliberative( involved in or characterized by deliberation and discussion and examination ) judgement of the people’s elected representatives…” So, with the majority of congress pro-choice, I guess he is referring to the minority of elected representatives…
“protected by the constitution.” Roe v Wade? Huh, I’m confused.
montag @ 15
Or his thigh for the cilice scars.
Our former DA here on LAwn Guyland used to be a super numerary in Opus Dei. They guy was crazy when it cam to abortion, would go potest in front of Planned Parenthood and refused to prosecute wingnuts who were arrested for assault for attacking women trying to get into PP.
He also attacked the other LI DA for daring to do a Grand Jury investigation and report into priest pedophiles.
It is terrifying the abuses of power that can occur when folks lose sight of the seperation between Church and State
Just remembered something else….. Is it now the case that women will have to revert to carrying a dead foetus to term?
UPDATED: RNC’s Smartech took over Ohio Election Servers on Nov 3, 2004″
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..142611/673
quick o/t
FYI – the Tillman/Lynch story is front paged at all major news sites including Pox
Christy – ‘Lou Bobbs’ is going to spotlight FDA story on his program tonight -
radiofreewill @
11
I think what was meant was the precedents set by the church hierarchy.
OT but silly crap from the GOP’ers. Smells like PANIC!
Republican puts out ‘action alert’ claiming Rice will be subpoenaed tomorrow GOP Rice Subpeona Alert
GOP may target Clinton Administration e-mails
GOPThreaten Clinton Administation E-mail probe
TiredFed at #4 has it: that “deal” with the filibuster screwed us royally. We got two wingnuts on the court, several on the appeals courts, and nothing, I repeat NOTHING, in return.
And now, if we get a Democrat in the White House, we’re still saddled with the filibuster.
We have to go at these creeps with the metaphorical machetes from here on. If Stephens has to resign, I don’t want a SINGLE Dem who isn’t willing to “run out the clock,” as Gonzales is doing so effectively. Bush gets NO more appointments.
Speaking of which, how about if we stop approving all his judicial appointments entirely? “No more judges for you, Junior.” And let’s haul every single recess-attorney up for a grilling. This is take-no-prisoners time. Grover was right: bi-partisanship is another term for date-rape.
when mario cuomo was gov of ny, he took pains to say that despite what the catholic church says about catholic politicians being obligated to follow its orders, he chose not to
the catholic church *does* require members to follow orders, or no communion for them
it says so right on their website
http://www.catholic.org/featur…..php?ID=886
and they made a big fuss over it re john kerry
So am I gonna need a Justice’s signed permission slip to have any other medical procedures performed? Since I’m just a poor, unfortunate woman who can’t think for herself, and needs the Big White Men of the Court to protect me from my inability to make what THEY and THEIR GOD (not my god) believe to be the right decision with regards to MY health and MY bodily autonomy?
lhp @ 23
It is terrifying the abuses of power that can occur when folks lose sight of the seperation between Church and State
There’s a paragraph in Dune about when religion and government are yoked to the same cart, how it goes faster and faster until it runs over the cliff it didn’t see. I wish the various flavors of fundy (all of them!) would recognize the danger on the path they’re trying to drag us down.
maunga @ 20
Everywhere I have lived I have always planted a rue plat in the garden. Even in States like NY, where pre- Roe v.Wade, it was illegal to posses oil of rue or tincture of rue; it has never been illegal to grow a rue plant.
I give rue seedlings as gifts to fellow Planned Parenthood members. If you know how to use it they can never force you bear an unwanted child.
Emphasis on know how to use it, research is important. Also, if you grow one, keep preganant women who want their babies away from your garden or anyone (including pets) who has recently been in it.
From Bloomberg via Raw Story on article coming out in the NewEngland Journal of Medicine:
Story Link
LHP @ 32
Just give them time….growing rue will be on their radar, and outlawed, precisely BECAUSE it can be dangerous to pregnant women.
looseheadprop @ 32
Wow — Is this serious? Learn something every day at fdl — where did the expression, “rue the day” come from? As in, “he will rue the day, somebody named him Oliver,” from the musical.
What gives me a giggle in all of this is that there has been lots of discussions within the hierarchy of the Catholic church suggesting that public officials who do not vote along the lines of cannon law (read pro-choice btw: I’ve never seen this discussion in relation to the death penelty) should be somehow considered bad Catholics. So the church thinks they should vote as Catholics but to point that out is to be anti-Catholic. You can’t make up stuff this good.
1,496 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen **** The traitors @ 7:
Ilove yer “handle” but it ain’t gunna fly here ‘cuz FDL keeps a bright line on “violence” on the blog…and I agree with that policy. Actually, I rely on the moderators ta keep me in the ballpark sometimes.
So even though hangin’ is in the statutes for treason…we gotta jest get the bastards ta trial and let the law do the rest. Hope ya ken find a handle that gets the point across…
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THE BASTARDS WON’T HESITATE TA HANG YOU IF THEY CATCH YA!!!
I was just shocked that a judicial opinion seemed to be right out of the wingnut talking points.
Talking gruesome surgery, after 34 yrs of nursing, Orthopedic procedures are really nasty. Saws, nails and pins…..hammering …..
Or a memory from 1971 in my third year of nursing school while I held the hand of a 14 yr old girl who was bleeding out from an illegal abortion while she is saying over and over again “I promise I will never do it again”. She never did because she died. I was 20, it was Missouri, just a few years before Roe V Wade was decided. Weirdly, abortion was legal in Kansas then…..
AND I never forget….. watching the life drain from a child because she found no other avenue but to risk her life… and lost
leinie @ 35
But in so many places, it grows wild. How will the eradicate it all.
Veritas78 @ 30
and dont call another recess, please! we cant take any more of these heckuva job appointments! they last until 2009!
looseheadprop @ 39
I believe it was called paraquad. Oh, wait. Wrong plant.
Exposing Republics who have had or been a partner in an abortion is a necessary, if unfortunate, step. It’s similar to exposing gay Republics. It’s the only way to get them to stop the political posturing.
I always thought Pope John Paul II was a pussy for accepting a blood transfusion after he was shot. Maybe it was God’s will that he die instead? Why didn’t they convene some sort of Vatican counsel to decide the question instead of letting the doctors rush in?
Anyone check the visitor log lately? Rummy’s ole boys are snooping around.
Jane, I thank you with all my heart for your impassioned voice on this issue.
And Tony Auth! ! ! He rocks!
AZ Matt @ 29
tis true. Henry Waxman plans to vote on subpoena for Rice re: Niger docs and a bunch of other stuff tomorrow.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 45
How can you tell?
Paraquat is an herbicide, not an herb. In the ’60’s it was sprayed on mj crops in South America by the US. Reports were that smoking mj which had been sprayed caused lung damage. Wiki says that is not so. I haven’t time to google for old stories, but I don’t believe much of what I read anywhere anymore.
JKc’s@45
what do you mean? How can I check visitor log?
Those of us who were baptized into the Catholic Church do not necessarily believe in all the dictums of the Church. To argue reasonably against the teachings of any religious faith is not bigotry. Anymore than saying if one disagrees with some of the Israeli government’s policies is anti-Semitic. To argue bigotry is the case in either situation is preposterous.
spurious @
21
Back in the days when folks were ex-communicated for divorce, my grandparents got one in 1922 or thereabouts. When told she was ex-communicated, my grandmother declared, “If you don’t want me, I’ll be damned if you’re getting my daughters.” Which ended catholicism in MY immediate family.
AZ Matt @ 29
Gee, don’t they need to get a majority vote to subpoena anything? What grounds would they propose for issuing a subpoena on the DNC? Just wondering…
Mandrake @
48
Do you see the sitemeter thing at the bottom of the page? ;-) Click on it .. then go to details ….. Abu’s been snooping too in the past few minutes as well.
itwasntme @ 43
No prohibition on blood transfusions in the Roman Catholic church. It is incumbent on Roman Catholics to prolong life by every practical means, as well, so most medical practices heartily encouraged.
itwasntme @
50
Check my reply at #54 … lots of interesting stuff you can find out there
HotFlash @ 47
Yes, the problem of the Rue Plant — growing wild, and being cultivated — will become a major social issue requiring funding for some spraying program to be enforced by a department whose funding — through forfeiture — will be dependent up the Rue Plant continuing to be a major social problem …….rinse, repeat. For four decades.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
looseheadprop
maybe it’s time for another surprise visit to Iraq, a/k/a fleeing the jurisdiction.
Personalized Mississippi license plate ordered.
IMPEACH.
Thanks for the interest. Will post pix on my site in about a week when I get the tag.
Enjoy.
looseheadprop @
40
Given all their success at eradicating wacky tabaccy…
Duh!
Why do you think Bush nominated right-wing Catholics like Alito and Roberts to the Supreme Court to begin with? Its a majority Catholic Court for a REASON.
We’re as anti-Catholic for pointing this out as Bush was for nominating them in the first place. Too bad its too late to do anything about it.
oddmommy @ 59
hmmm. maybe Henry should deny bail.
Scarecrow,
many moons ago when I was law student, it was my very great privledge to be the research assistant tothe dean of my law school. He had written one of the ameci briefs in Roe
It was coming up on one of Roe’s anniversaries and he had me do legal research into the changes in abortion law in all 50 states and the territories since Roe was decided. I also threw in a a couple of western countries and Cannon Law as well (I like to be thorough in my research)
That’s how I first discovered the lovey rue plant. It is a pretty sage green plant with unusally shaped leaves attractive yellow flowers. A very hardy perrenial that is easy to grow. It is used in cooking, particularly egg and cheese dishes.
And, of course, if used carefully, can produce a medical abortion.
Many of the “alleged” pro-lifers supported the invasion of Iraq (650,ooo dead and counting) do not support equity in education, health care for all, and a national living wage. Hypocrisy gone wild!
Most of the pro-lifers are pro-fetus not pro-life. They want to force women to have children and then after that those kids and mothers are on their own. YOu know “survival of the fittest” (richest)
A’57 @ 58
Of course, the Republic mantra seems to be” “Eh, women? Not so much.”
Montag at 12
The Church doesn’t give ‘passes’ on Dogma/Doctrine to *anyone*, even Supreme Court Justices.
So, if you think when they put on the robes that they are cloaked in some kind of immunity from Mortal Sin, think again.
They know it, too.
How would you envision a ’separation’ of personal belief that you are going to Hell for ‘enabling’ abortion from a legal precedent established by other Courts not composed of Catholics?
What would compel a practicing Catholic in good standing with the Church to *vote* against the Doctrine to which he/she subscribes? Especially, if that doctrine entails going to Hell for violating it?
The leadership of the Catholic church has become increasingly adamant in insisting that Catholic politicians, legislators and others in public life use their offices to support Catholic teachings. They have also become more willing, as we saw in 2004, to campaign, from the pulpit and in the media, against Catholic politicians who, though they may follow Catholic teaching in their private lives, do not support the Church’s positions in terms of public policy. The 5 Catholics on the Supreme Court are all conservative Catholics who would be expected to heed the Pope’s direction on how they are required to conduct themselves in terms of their public duties. Here is a news report (International Herald) from last year that outlines the Pope’s direction to Catholics on how they are to perform their public duties:
BOLOGNA: Pope Benedict XVI strongly reasserted Tuesday the church’s opposition to abortion, euthanasia and gay marriage, saying that Catholic politicians were “especially” obligated to defend the church’s stance in their public duties.
“These values are non-negotiable,” the pope wrote in a 130-page “apostolic exhortation” issued in Rome, forming a distillation of opinion from a worldwide meeting of bishops at the Vatican in 2005.
“Consequently, Catholic politicians and legislators, conscious of their grave responsibility before society, must feel particularly bound, on the basis of a properly formed conscience, to introduce laws inspired by values grounded in human nature.”
I never heard of rue either. I take it it is what they call an “abortifacient”? Do you just, like, eat it and…..?
I was never very good at it, so I guess I’m a former Catholic. Most of my generation seems to feel the same way. It’s the fundies (of any stripe) that you have to worry about.
Tim Fuller @ 60
I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting to get that tag if I were you. The states can block tags someone (anyone in power) deem offensive.
looseheadprop @ 33
Pennyroyal is good (but dangerous) too. If you have never read it, look for a paperback text entitled, “Jeanne Rose’s Herbal.”
OK went to site meter – is that Washington DC fed stuff, people logging on – I guess it is.
Well, if you washington DC guys are here reading, please get a conscence, read the above post at 58 and get with it! We need loyal Americans now, no matter what party. I carry a copy of the bill of rights in my wallet. Youall might try that.
Nothing here at the lake except good, clean sunshine. Keep reading.
Tim Fuller @
60
Nice touch. Too bad it won’t be personally crafted by Haley Barbour, behind bars.
” Ingraham wrote on her Web site. “Could she ever get away with denigrating the Muslim faith this way?”"
Ummm, if the SCOTUS voted 5-4 to stone women for adultery, and the 5 justices in the majority were all Muslim men, this would be a reasonable assumption. Why is it any different the other way around?
I seem to recall that in the 1840’s the Know-Nothing party (in the days of the ‘Chronicles of Maria Monk’, inter al.)seemed to know something about the sub-Atlantic tunnel between Rome and Washington with priests scurrying about with marching orders. JFK seemed to have put an end to that, though Mitt Romney really, really must also if he is to have a chance (heavens forfend!). Look at this Taylor March post to see why I doubt he could pull it off, http://www.taylormarsh.com/arc…..p?id=25391
I think that it is curious that the fabulous five are all Catholic, but I do not believe that fact to be the controlling one. It just makes me embarrassed to have been brought up Catholic.
There was a letter in the NYTimes today to the effect that the abortion issue is between two groups of people: one can’t say ‘fetus’; the other can’t say ‘mother’. Never heard it framed this way before.
Reviewing a couple of facts which most FDLers are already familiar with about Roman Catholocism:
1. It’s a monarchy. During the Civil War, the Vatican was officially neutral. The truth was they were pro-slavery, because so many wealth Roman Catholics owned slaves and were a terrific source of donations. To get authority, you have to be ordained. In order to even be considered for ordination, you can only be one gender, guess which?
2. In order to be considered for ordination you also have to promise/vow no sex. As everyone is aware, altar boy sex is rampant among Roman Catholic priests. Cardinals like Mahoney (LA) and Egan (NY), made their careers insulating the institutional Church from the legal and financial consequences of transfering known predators into parish after parish, because they have a self-inflicted priest shortage. There are tons of Roman Catholics qualified to be priests. The Vatican won’t consider them, however, if they are the wrong gender or won’t promise celibacy. The historical problems with celibacy were well known by Luther and other Xtian reformers. Celibacy was never mandatory until Hildebrand, aka Gregory VII in 1074.
3. Benny 16 and John Paul 2 before him just wax eloquent about the power of forgiveness when they talk about predators who they forgave and forgave and forgave, for having sex with underage boys. Sex among consenting adults of the same gender however, is a mortal sin.
When it comes to divorce and remarriage, that’s a mortal sin too. If you’re Rudy Giuliani, you can get an annullment. It’s a very expensive, debasing, theologically absurd process that says nothing happened. Hard to explain that to the kids. For less influential and less wealthy Roman Catholics, they cannot remarry after divorce. If they do, they are banned from receiving any of the Sacraments.
4. Roman Catholic Church also does not allow “artificial” birth control. Using a thermometer to assess ovulation is not artificial birth control, but a pill, condom, or diaphram is.
Scalia’s comments about “cafeteria catholics” could not be more wrong. It’s the Vatican that picks and chooses its latest stand.
5. Here’s link to really sickening chapter in Roman Catholic history the kidnapping of Edgardo Mortara
radiofreewill @ 68
I wasn’t referring to them–I was referring to the apparent lack of irony in your statement. If you had made a play on “settled precedent,” which is a legal term, not a theological one, I would have recognized what you were saying as ironic. “Settled dogma” would have been a bit easier for me to appreciate.
Cheers.
You could convict Rove, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, Bush and a slew of others at the top in this administration of multiple crimes. And none of them would ever admit to us, let alone themselves, that they ever did anything wrong.
itwasntme @
73
I am not worried. I am sure Jane is aware of who visits the site. I just thought people might like to check it out for themselves. Besides, if I get hauled to Gitmo, I am sure there will be an FDL party down there. ;-)
HotFlash @ 55
Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe in blood transfusions. At least that used to be their position on that.
Us old-timers can look back to John F. Kennedy’s 1960 Presidential campaign, where he was asked by reporters whether his Catholicism might interfere with his decision making process if he were elected. This exhibited a religious bigotry that even FOX “news” would not attempt today. Perhaps it would be a good thing to ask government officials both elected and appointed when taking their oath of office, “Are there previous oaths or affiliations which you think would supersede your obligation to protect and defend the Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic?”
As we have already seen; previously with SCOTUS, with the AG, and even with the pResident himself – loyalty to corporate interests, the Republican party, and possibly Skull and Bones has rendered the oath moot.
OH and the other name for rue? Herb o’Grace.
Before they got those little silver thingies that look like babies rattles with holes in them to sprinkle Holy Water on the crowds, Catholic priests would use Herb o’Grace to dip in the Holy Water and shake to disperse droplets over the crowd.
It’s so ironic and I often wondered how they chose that particular plant. Even back in the meddle ages rue was known for its aborficant prpoerties.
Ah, settled dogma. Sounds like something nice do to in front of a fireplace during winter.
(Pls pardon OT… multiply EPU’d)
Feeling adventuresome? Interested in who else is in the FDL community, and where they are? Maybe get in touch with them via anonymous message?
Hope to see you on our unofficial FirePup Fan map. Pls don’t forget to pick the right pin for yourself, and to add a fun “shoutout” and maybe a pic. At this writing, there’re 358 of us with pins! :)
(… and now we return you to your normally-scheduled thread, in progress …)
I don’t much have an opinion on abortion myself, but if it is morally wrong as the right wing says it is then birth control would be equally as wrong. By preventing an egg to fertilize you would be doing the same thing essentially as aborting a fetus. You wouldn’t be killing a baby but you are killing the potential thus going against what God may have had planned. Let the right wing nuts stew on that a while.
We can talk about the Pope’s influence on Bush. And we can discuss the influence Billy Graham has had on this president.
SadButTrue @ 82
With Kerry, the wing-nutters WANTED him to proclaim that his Catholicism would supersede obligation to all. Just like the wanted to hear Roberts and Alito tap dancing on abortion so they could reach this latest decision.
rude pundit has a delightful bit of his trademark snarkery on the Vatican’s letting unbaptized babies out of “limbo”:
http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/
OK, I have many thoughts on this one.
1. there are Catholics and there are Catholic wingnuts. The wingnuts abhor the Jesuits who teach us to question what we have been taught in order to fully accept it or reject it. The wingnuts rely on, guess what, religious authority of the infallible Pope.
2. I find mammograms to be misogynistic too. Would these pro-lifers be willing to fund research to devise a less painful preventive procedure? You don’t see any guys lining up for the tortilla press.
3. I find the “culture of life” Talking Point hypocritical so much to inspire much ongoing retching. Yes, let’s save the embryos in order to turn them over to the military.
Bush fatigue indeed. Bush Sr. is probably crying because he got his sons’ names mixed up during the fateful closed door meeting about which one should be elected first. You know how easy to get your kids’ names mixed up. I do it all the time.
I once witnessed on TV reconstructive surgery where they essentially peeled the face off of the skull to rebuild around the eye sockets. I wonder if Catholic Justice Kennedy would feel that’s too gruesome to allow as well.
It’s sad, really. Catholic Justice Kennedy was the one who tried to get the Supreme Court to act appropriately in 2000 on Bush v. Gore and not override the Florida Supreme Court. But he’s so, so wrong on this that nothing else he does will redeem him.
i believe it was the amazing barney frank said of the anti choicers that, who typically also want to cut social welfare spending, that, for them, life begins at conception and ends at birth
Nice kind of tangential post by (President-to-be) Nancy P.. It is good to see her taking on a broader feminist agenda.
countryjoe @ 87
They have, and they’re not too wild about contraception, either. That’s one of the reasons they keep pushing abstinence programs.
It’s really simple. They don’ wan’ wimmens fuckin’ unless it’s with a husband, and only if’n it makes babies.
Do the hokey-pokey, turn upside-down, and that what fundamentalism is all about… uh, that and government of God’s preachers, by God’s preachers and for God’s preachers….
Abortion to save the mother is ok with the church my grandparents were given the option about my father by the Nuns as my father told me and even though the Nuns put presure it was still their choice. Thankfuly nothing went wrong and I’m here today but these Supremes are apparently more radical than the Catholic Church was preVatican 2. I have mocked Scalia as a preVatican 2 holdover in the past. I admit now I was wrong all the Catholic Supremes are more radical than the Church ever was! Ignoring the Doctors advice about saving the life of the mom is not Catholic its well Psychotic.
do-si-do @ 90
Re: mamograms
If something shows up on a mamogram, they send you for an ultrasound. Why can’t you just have the ultra sound in the first place?
realworld @ 93
Hey, if Cheney resigns for “medical reasons,” shouldn’t Nancy get promoted to VP? So that Bush will, like, HAVE to do what she says?
: )
countryjoe @ 85
This is why Catholics do not believe in birth control, except for abstinence or the so-called ‘rhythm’ method, which works out to abstaining on fertile days. Although it seemed like hair-splitting to me to allow that.
looseheadprop @ 83
thanks for the background, lhp — some days, it’s hard to know whether to laugh or weep.
I’ve always maintained that marriage is a male institution to assure definite paternity. I told that to an old boyfriend of mine years ago (he was an arab BTW) and it left him slack-jawed.
oddmommy @ 98
Uh, no. Bush gets to pick. Senate gets to confirm.
ah countryjoe,
I’ve made many a fundie head explode with a similar argument -
why do y’all get to make the distinction with regard to rape or incest ?!?!? murder’s murder innit ?!?!?
yeah I know, all their arguments are ridiculous – just can’t resist the occasional scanners opportunity
so, if dead babies are out of limbo and now go straight to heaven, well, aborted babies are actually being helped along to paradise, instead of living on earth and maybe doing bad things and going to the bad place, by their twisted utterly wrong logic
religion like this is just wrong
HotFlash @ 98
I know a couple of Catholic women who got permission from their respective priest to go on the Pill because getting pregnant would be very risky and life-threatening. And as we’ve seen with the recent reversal on limbo, church dogma is only as absolute as people are willing to make it. Either it comes from man or God is fallible…
I wonder if Karl ever gave any of his power point presentations about how government actions affect Republicans in specfic voting districts to the Supreme Court he gave these presentations to White House officals why not the Supreme Court?
Ahhd lack to nonimate my good frien Jim, here.
Jim Beam, yeah, thats the ticket.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 54
HOW INTERESTING!! I didn’t know about this!
Okay, here’s my theory. Since Cheney is/was having some health issues, they are looking for erm, shall I say, “controversial” comments in that regard. Wisely, Christy admonished us, a while back (what was that about, I can’t remember whether he had an accident or what?), not to make any such jokes on here for obvious reasons which are becoming more obvious.
Thanks for sharing this fascinating tidbit of info!
montag @ 101
What would happen to VP staff (Addington), would they be out of work immediately?
The church in which I was raised (Greek Orthodox) permits abortion. It also allows priests to marry. And it allows divorce. (Orthodoxy split off from Catholicism about the year 1000.)
I’m not much of a churchgoer, but I am sort of proud to be part of such a common sense branch of Christianity.
montag @ 101
yes, I know….but a girl can dream….
looseheadprop @ 96
If only. I went straight on to a biopsy, no ultrasound.
oddmommy @ 89
I was distressed to hear about limbo’s passing; it was my last hope.
Tim B @ 62
Crooked GOP Judges are not any more exempt from the law then crooked GOP executives.
Eureka Springs @ 109
Dunno. My guess is that anyone that Bush would pick would love having most of Cheney’s partners in crime sticking around.
Ohh, the delicious irony. Normally, evangelical and fundamentalist Protestants wouldn’t defend the actions of a Catholic on any matter because he might be a papist, taking orders from Rome. Catholics and Protestants have been fighting each other since Martin Luther picked up that hammer and nails. To think they got what they wanted because 5 Catholic supreme court justices followed the authority of the Pope, the head of the Catholic Church, should give them apoplexy. (Maybe that’s why they want to quash anyone who points out the clear Catholic bias. It’s mortifying)
When the celebration dies down, they’re going to want to kick themselves. We’re right back in the 16th century.
oddmommy @ 109
montag @ 101
oddmommy @ 98
Hey, if Cheney resigns for “medical reasons,” shouldn’t Nancy get promoted to VP? So that Bush will, like, HAVE to do what she says?
: )
Uh, no. Bush gets to pick. Senate gets to confirm.
yes, I know….but a girl can dream….
I like this dream. Let’s take a deep breath and enjoy the fantasy.
coming in late to this but that cartoon at the top is priceless!
or is it just sad?
If it were not against patient privacy laws, it would truly be a hoot if Abortion Clinics leaked the names of all the ‘Anti-Choicers’ who go in to get their abortions on demand after picketing of same clinics.
Or for that matter, that ‘refuse to treat’ some doctors were takling about applying to lawyers who sued them. Sure, it’s wrong. But the irony, oh the irony….
wiki has a pretty picture of rue
and if you read the literary quotes with rue’s other properties in mind, they take on a different meaning
itwasntme @ 100
unnecessary. This is probably an old wives’ tale (or at least it is now since I’m an old wife) but when I was in the baby-making business I heard that newborns resemble their fathers at first due to some sort of primordial biological paternity-marker…….and it was true of both my kids when they were first born. (the little one still looks like a carbon copy of his Dad.)
looseheadprop @ 119
They will all rue the day that they let Scarlito and his gonads dictate the prime womb directives.
Montag at 78
I enjoy reading your posts. You’re correct, I was trying to show the irony of ’settled precedent’ ultimately being a matter of personal choice.
If a person believes there is a ‘higher law’ on specific Mortal Sin issues, then it would be impossible to expect him/her to go against ’settled Dogma’ on mere legal precedent.
I tried being snarky last week, it was a train wreck…
Mandrake @ 111
Hope you are OK now. ?
I’m praying to my ecumenical higher power that I will not get bc because i avoided hormone therapy. I know I am only sticking my head in the sand. But I really do hate the tortilla press. silly and childish I know.
Slightly OT but I post it here because I have a lot of trouble getting around this site. But here are Lt. Col. Needs Sensitivity Training’s comments on Mrs. Tillman’s spirituality. http://sports.espn.go.com/espn…..llmanpart1
scarecrow @ 99
bound to offend:
the word on the street is that Herb O’Grace is a retired Irish priest.
oddmommy @ 108
Yes, oddmommy, it’s why I was so specific in my comment above about ROMAN Catholicism. The split is known as the “EASTERN schism.” Luther’s split is known as the “Western” schism. Easter Rite Catholics have no centralized authority, such as the Roman pope. IIRC, you’re still working on getting both genders ordained.
From a theological/liturgical perspective, the Eastern Rite Churches offer a terrific glimpse at what Luther was reacting against in a liturgical sense. The Eastern Rite ceremony is filled with “smells and bells” in its beautiful and rich liturgical tradition.
Welcome .. and here is the link(in case anyone else is curious):
http://www.sitemeter.com/stats…..iredoglake
[Modnote: please don’t requote more than twice, thanks]
Anyone who says God talks to them is seriously delusional. In a word: sick. Anyone baking cakes in a bakery or landscaping or for that matter most occupations who claims to talk to God, I don’t worry. But when the man with the finger on the nuclear trigger spouts this nonsense, I become a tad worried.
looseheadprop @ 96
Mammograms are something of a black art to interpret except in unequivocal cases. An ultrasound is used to hone in on an area tentatively identified in a mammogram. If it shows a fluid filled cyst, that’s benign. If it shows a dense area, biopsy.
itwasntme @
100
If I understand my religions, I believe in Judaism, it is traced through the maternal just BECAUSE paternity cannot be assured. Or I may be an idiot. :})
Now that it appears the RNC servers were counting the votes in Ohio in 2004:
Check this Youtube out, called We’ll take care of the counting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEgBCkiV4DM
montag @
101
And House as well.
radiofreewill @ 123
Maybe a reference to Pope Constantine would have helped me determine the nature of the settlement. :)
That’s the approximate time period in which this legal ruling belongs….
I grew up in the Catholic Church and went to Catholic schools for 12 years.
What I want to know is when will the Pope, Cardinals, Bishops etc. sale those fancy hats, robes, and accessories and give that money to the poor?
Jesus would roll over in his grave if he had one?
It’s simple to prove the fundies, Catholic and Protestant alike, use abortion as a political tool, rather than protest it from conviction.
1. The Republican Congress could have rammed thru an anti-abortion law at their leisure, and Bush could have signed it. They didn’t.
2. If abortion is truly murder, then fundies must argue for death sentences for the women and doctors who participate. They don’t.
Amongst conservative circles, it is popular to suggest Jackson and Sharpton stir racial troubles for personal benefit.
So why is it so hard to imagine Falwell, Robertson, Perkins, Dobson, Bush, Delay, et.al, ad nauseum, use the same tactic?
It’s bullshit, plain and simple.
IMPEACH ACTIONS ACROSS THE NATION SAT APRIL 28.
http://www.a28.org/actions.shtml
“Medicine is icky, and the notion that women just sashay in and order up a D&E like they would a mocha java latte is nuts. It’s a rarely performed procedure and only a doctor would know if it was medically necessary.”
This point can’t be emphasized enough, imo. There seems to be a popular distortion among anti-choice folks that women who choose to terminate a pregnancy, for whatever reason, don’t endure emotional consequences and/or difficulty coping even when the decision to terminate is sound and firm.
portia.vz @ 114
Excellent point. In the fundy Sunday School of my youth, the Catholic Church was the Whore of Babylon.
Fundy Prots are papering this over to gain temporal influence, going against the words of Jesus: “Render unto Caesar….”
UPDATE, 3:45 p.m. ET: Kucinich now plans to hold his news conference announcing articles of impeachment against the vice president at 5 p.m. ET today
wapo
John Casper @
125
That’s exactly true….so I’ve often thought we had all the beauty and
mystery of that tradition without the f****d up sex rules.
Don’t think women will ever get ordained in the Greek church at least…..Greeks are a little, er, backward about that sort of thing.
yikes….I don’t know what’s doing that underlining….I must be on Gonzo’s radar or something
diogenes @ 135
It’s probably a variant of the old bait-and-switch, and most of the fundies don’t catch on. It’s about satisfying big business.
I just finished Joe Conason’s It Can Happen Here, and he has a paragraph or two on what happened before the Alito confirmation. A number of business groups sponsored a heavy radio campaign in favor of Alito, and all of those ads were comprised of only hot-button social issues, things that corporations don’t give a shit about.
They got their guy on the court, and so did the fundies.
Sorry, I can’t help it if they’re bloody stupid.
punaise @ 124
This is a block from an on line herbal
Herb of Fair Maidnes indeed. If they need to take rue, they are not maidens any longer!
smapdi @ 138
Good! Where can we see it?
Well, thank god I don’t have one of those mind-clouding uteruses and can be trusted to make my own decisions regarding my own body. I can do whatever I want with my manly reproductive organs! Yay!
Where do the two front runners for the Democratic nomination stand on whether the AG should be fired?
John Deans take on the Attorney General quagmire
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20070420.html
Oklahoma kiddo @ 144
Somewhere in fuzzy-wuzzy, Word Parsing Land, I imagine.
diogenes says
April 24th, 2007 at 1:23 pm
2. If abortion is truly murder, then fundies must argue for death sentences for the women and doctors who participate. They don’t.
And a woman who asked a doctor to perform such an operation, even if the doctor refused, would be guilty of attempted murder. And it wouldn’t matter whether the woman was, or wasn’t, aware of the most recent SupCt decision, because ignorance of the law is no excuse.
smapdi @ 138
Treason.
At a time when our nation is at war.
A war that will go on forever.
[And yes, this is a joke.]
OT: Jane, I’m guessing that as a Lakers fan you’re not quite on board this one:
cleter @ 143
I’m not a South PArk watcher, but wasn’t that show that had the song about every sperm needs an egg, every sperm must saved
something like that. Does anybody know what I’m talking about ? Clearly, I don’t
I know of at least one pro-choice anti-Bush Catholic. Me.
wonder if “Conservapedia” has entry for rue….
Go Dennis!! Ready For Prime Time, dude! Show Hillary what GUTS look like…..
looseheadprop @ 150
That’s Monty Python, Every Sperm is Sacred
Every sperm is sacred.
looseheadprop @ 150
Do you mean the “Every Sperm is Sacred” number from Monty Pyhon’s The Meaning of Life?
Every sperm is sacred,
every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
in your neighborhood!
Oh, hell, never mind.
Let the heathens spill theirs,
on the dusty ground!
God will make them pay for,
each sperm that can’t be found.
I know this is OT but I thought it was fitting. In fact, it was in a blog post by the Inky’s political writer, Dick Polman. He was writing about the passing of David Halberstam yesterday. The is the last passage of “The Best and the Brightest”. It pretty well sums up the Chimperor too.
Lyndon Johnson had lost it all, and so had the rest of them; they had, for all their brilliance and hubris and sense of themselves, been unwilling to look to and learn from the past….He and the men around him wanted to be defined as being strong and tough; but strength and toughness and courage were exterior qualities which would be demonstrated by going to a clean and hopefully antiseptic war with a small nation, rather than the interior and more lonely kind of strength and courage of telling the truth to America (about an unwinnable war) and perhaps incurring a great deal of domestic political risk…
Nor had they, leaders of a democracy, bothered to involve the people of their country in the course they had chosen; they knew the right path and they knew how much could be revealed, step by step along the way. They had manipulated the public, the Congress, and the press from the start, told half truths, about why we were going in, how deeply we were going in, how much we were spending, and how long we were in for. When their predictions turned out to be hopefully inaccurate, and when the public and the Congress, annoyed at being manipulated, soured on the war, then the architects had been aggrieved. They had turned on those very symbols of the democratic society they had once manipulated, criticizing them for their lack of fiber, stamina, and lack of belief….What was singularly missing…was an iota of public admission that they had miscalculated. The faults, it seemed, were not theirs, the fault was with this country which was not worth of them. So they lost it all.
oddmommy at 1:29 pm
Thanks for the comment. What I also should have mentioned is that Roman Catholics can satisfy their weekly requirement of attending Mass and receiving the Eucharist at an Eastern Rite liturgy. Roman Catholic popes have always respected the ordination of Eastern Rite priests, even though they are married and have no allegiance to Rome. One of many fickle things between the two traditions.
I also failed to mention adequately that Catholics are Xtians first. Jesus, the scriptures (most of them), the early Church Councils, Chalcedon, Nicea, …. all predate the two great schisms East and West, which have separated Xtians.
Froomkin on Bush’s increasingly bizarre detachment from reality deep in the bunker.
Maybe it’s time for BlockBuster to reclassify Downfall from Drama to Current Events.
I heard a very poignant letter read on XM 15 this afternoon from a Vietnam vet turned folk singer saying how he never thought our country would make that mistake again in his lifetime. He has a website, believe it’s suicidewall.com, about all the vets who ended up committing suicide. Also a song called “The Wall” about a vet who shoots himself at the Vietnam memorial.
Powerful stuff. Unfortunately, I can’t remember the man’s name.
Suprise guest upstairs
Kathleen @ 145
thanks Kathleen!
DOJ is checking us out? maybe its because of Dennis’s impeachment articles for Cheney I heard he is suppose to bring up today. After all we do have some great legal expertise here and the DOJ might be checking out what the great unpaid liberal thinktanks/blogs think about Cheney’s possible impeachment. Either that or they are preparing a KrystallisNatch round up of disidents in response to the Reichstag being set on fire and then declare military law. Although I thought Adolf did that when his popularity was a few percentage points higher, a military coup now would be very unpopular.
Alexander Paul?
Suicidewall
Kathleen @ 145
it’s a great write-up!
John Casper @ 159
What is an Xtian?
oddmommy @
97
It appears the Dems have planned their takedown of Bush & Co. with a great deal of skill, unlike the last few years where they looked spineless.
DK will hopefully have planned his impeachment hearing to ‘uncover’ evidence about Bush and impeach him as well, before he has a chance to nominate a VP (Sorry Lieberman).
dakine01 @ 129
Hey guys – no kidding; go upstairs. My jaw dropped.
realworld @
37
I hope you meant “canon law” [/snicker]
Bob in HI
New thread, special guest Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton joins us to talk about Equal Pay, Equal Respect.
Please be respectful and stay on-topic. People wishing to discuss other matters are welcome to stay on this thread.
Hillary upstairs talking about equal pay for women. Cute, guess she thinks this is Ladies Home Journal. Anyone want to ask about equal reproductive rights? Hasn’t she noticed there’s a war on? I’m too angry to be civil so I’ll stay down here.
egregious @ 172
Umm, I’ll stay right here. I would definitely say something I shouldn’t and thereby embarrass our hosts.
Oklahoma kiddo @
127
Especially when “God’s words” contradict truths and facts.
Petrocelli @ 175
Yeah, wonder if God helped George scope out the best lies to use on the public?
things come undone @
167
short for Christian
montag @
174
if you see Oklahoma Kiddo, let’s distract him and keep him in this thread.
There’s a senator upstairs…that’s pretty cool.
Was that the surprise CHS alluded to a couple of weeks ago?
HotFlash @
173
We invited her on to talk about it.
punaise @ 178
You’ll need some rope and a gag, I would guess. :)
Jane Hamsher @ 179
Hi Jane, I figured I’d say something dumb so I’ll just hang here in the kitchen.
montag @
176
Well, if he gets impeached, he will pass the blame to God and demand that Congress subpoena God to face these charges.
I am impressed that HRC has joined the fray here. I’ll go upstairs and watch, quietly.
Senator Clinton has arrived and is commenting.
If there were a Martian conducting a scientific study of Supreme Court decisionmaking, and all he knew was that all the justices who voted one way were the members of a particular religion, and all the justices who voted another way were not, wouldn’t the Martian find this powerful evidence that membership in that religion HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH the way the majority voted? To ignore the powerful association between the justices’ Catholicism and their vote in Gonzales v. Carhart, or worse, to condemn those who point it out, is the height of irrationality. But I suppose it’s what we’ve come to expect.
Petrocelli @ 183
The only hearing the fundies will watch this century….
punaise @
178
LOL. Lots of off comments already there.
Petrocelli @ 188
Off comments, or off-color comments? :)
Funny, I saw the doings upstairs and immediately cordoned myself off down here, for precisely the same reason as montag.
I love this blog, but it’s creepy that we’re lobbing softballs on a no-brainer topic to a Senator (my Senator) who needs to be raked over coals for her continuing refusal (at this late date!) to repudiate her complicity in mass murder.
Sorry kids, but I feel like I need a shower. Wonder what’s happening at Next Hurrah….
Kathleen at 145
I normally find Dean to be sharp and incisive (’Conservatives without Conscience’ is a great read,) but in that article he seems not to have caught-on to the fact that Gonzo wears two hats – AG and Representative of the Unitary Executive.
What we saw last Thursday was an Absentee Manager from the UE, who nominally holds a frivolous job title, AG of the US, testify that his only concern was keeping the President happy – everyone else can go jump in a lake (and, if they do, I hope they pick this one.)
So what if Gonzo had the support of only 2 of the 19 Senate Judiciary members (Hatch and Cornyn)? So what if Gonzo’s engagement with the non-political part of his job is negligible? So what if the DoJ, prosecutions and ourselves are being hurt?
Dean can see bad things are happening, but he hasn’t realized the game has fundamentally changed due to the UE – the last 50 years of AGs that he can recall don’t apply to these Gonzo Days.
montag @
189
I meant to say off- topic comments but could not get back to edit ;-)
Back for a moment during a deluge of online work today. Waxman hearing will have to wait for TiVo much later, but here’s a list of currently available plant abortifacients (I researched the topic extensively for an undergrad Archaeology paper back in the day, list still viable):
From Wiki-
“Wild carrot, Black cohosh, Pennyroyal, Nutmeg, Mugwort, Papaya, and Common Rue are themselves abortifacients. Typically the labeling will contraindicate use by pregnant women, but will not contain an explanation for this contraindication. There is little available data on their efficacy.”
Y’know, here’s a candidate for president who’s trying to show some “little people” creds by a bill to equalize pay by gender, and yet, she’s taking policy advice from the same big business clowns (Hamilton Project) who have, in large part, been quite happy to institutionalize the inequity in the first place.
I’ll ignore the implicit hypocrisy in it, and, instead, just wonder who’s really going to gain by Clinton being in office.
montag @
194
I hope Hillary isn’t playing to segments of the population – in this case, women – to snare voters.
No, no, that would be unthinkable for a politician.
radiofreewill @ 191
Dean knows exactly what he’s saying. He’s been watching this sh*t happening, and telling people about it, for a couple of years at least. Also, you need to remember he was WH counsel to Nixon, and was involved in the Watergate affair. He has credentials and credibility.
ralphbon @ 189
My feeling exactly. Like this is a gaggle, “no hard questions please”. However, I had a peek and FirePups are being their usual selves, very respectful with Company, but there are some topics that are always important. I had to leave to avoid screaming at comment 27, “And that’s a freakin’ *plan*????”
countryjoe @ 86
Country Joe, I do differ with you in that I have a strong opinion that a woman should have a right, choice, to decide whether to have a child, and what happens to her own body.
I agree with your comment about letting them stew on the birth control issue.
You will notice that among all the laws passed, presented against abortion, not one throws the woman in jail for having one, just the doctor who performed it. By their illogical reasoning, one should be just as bad as another but it isn’t.
Can you imagine the hell that would break loose if women were sent to jail for having an abortion? Or for that matter, for using birth control?
Hillary has left the lake. Ok k was on his best behavior. *s* (ole softie)
Hillary’s gone. Tell Oklahoma Kiddo he can come back inside now.
hr 333 articles of impeachment against shooter
HotFlash @ 197
ditto,ditto
Just doesnt feel right
Petrocelli @ 195
Yup. Unthinkable. Doable. You bet. :)
None of the people I refer to above have yet to admit that NAFTA has been an unmitigated disaster for everyone except the major stockholders of multinationals….
They’re “free trade” true believers. I don’t see much advantage in wage equality when everyone’s wages and job prospects are being steadily depressed by trade and tax policies which simply reinforce the power of corporations–which is both an economic and political liability for us “little people.”
Anyone ask her yet why she’s letting Rupert Murdoch cozy up to her?
Cnn pipeline has kucinich
Excellent post, Jane; thank you. So much for the division of church and state; another mortal blow to our Constitution. All branches have failed us.
1,496 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Firepup Patriots:
There was a reason that JFK had ta appear before the Baptists in Texas in 1960 to proclaim that he would not be held to the dictates of the Catholic hierarchy in ANY decisions of policy. There is a reason why the people in America in the 17th and 18th centuries compromised on the separation of church and state and it wasn’t out of tolerance of other sects including Christians. And there is a reason why it took an assassination to put the first Southerner in the White House since the 1850’s.
It is time to ask the question of all seekers of public office: does the dictate of your church hierarchy command your political policy positions? This is necessary of all offices from school board to President and it is especially necessary in Supreme Court nominations.
I was 14 years old when I watched the returns of the 1960 election with hope and confidence…JFK had addressed a true concern carried in the depths of our historical experience. I was 17 years old when that hope was shattered but little did I realize that we would be returning to the 16th Century in my lifetime.
There is an ex-Nazi in the Vatican and the grandson of a fascist war profiteer in the White House…remember old Ronnie Reagan and his remarks to the dead SS soldiers, is it coincidence that Reagan was also the President that gave diplomatic recognition to the Vatican?
It’s time to enforce a strict test for ALL public officeholders…if they can’t convince us that their religious affiliation does not demand loyalty in secular decisions, then we have every right to keep ‘em outta office.
KEEP THE FAITH AND DON’T BE AFRAID TO ASK THE QUESTIONS…REMEMBER WHO THE BIGOTS REALLY ARE HERE FOLKS!!!
HotFlash @ 197
Yup, I would’ve lost it. “You mean women like, umm, Collins and Jean Schmidt and Michele Bachmann and…. Yup, sounds like a plan.”
This is why impeaching the Supremes who stole the election and who are really the only ones who elected GW Bush in 2000 is a *much better* idea than wasting energy with impeaching the lame duck Bush.
By impeaching the so-called justices who overruled the will of the people in a presidential election, you are making real change to the third branch of government and undoing some of the damage that dates back to that criminal act of usurping the will of the majority and undermining the very idea of democracy.
Bye, bye Scalia, Thomas, Kennedy!
Muzzy @
136
Except when they’re claiming that all sorts of mental illness result from such a decision. Next time we’re discussing the emotional consequences of having an abortion (I had one when I was 22 years old and unmarried), let’s also discuss the emotional consequences of having children. I have two sons whom I love dearly, but the life-long repercussions of having children pale in comparison with those of terminating a pregnancy. I have no patience with any of the studies correlating depression etc. with abortion precisely because they never include the obvious control group: those who have children.
Tom The Patriot @ 208
Vincent Bugliosi would be the first to agree with you….
ixnay @ 209
They’re claiming physical consequences like breast cancer, too. And they never, ever talk about the economic consequences of having a child to support with a low-paying job.
egregious @ 185
Fixed.
montag @ 94
They have, and they’re not too wild about contraception, either. That’s one of the reasons they keep pushing abstinence programs.
It’s really simple. They don’ wan’ wimmens fuckin’ unless it’s with a husband, and only if’n it makes babies unless its a Republican cheating on his spouse while she’s in the hospital.
Fixed.
Phule—
I do not appreciate having my comment changed in that way.
Tom The Patriot @ 207
Supreme Court Justices take this oath of office:
According to Title 28, Chapter I, Part 453 of the United States Code, each Supreme Court Justice takes the following oath:
Although it appears that no one can figure out what impeachment is actually for, perhaps we can consider it an indictment of a civil officer for violating their oath of office?
So. Thinkety thinkety think. Impeachment not gonna happen with this Congress, need 2/3 of Senate and that can’t happen until more Dems in and maybe not even then. I think the WH is much more vulnerable, at least the public can hope to understand that GW and The Dick are hurting ordinary citizens and also acting improperly. Not so easy to do with SCOTUS. Most people won’t even be able to give you one SC Justices’s name, I’ll bet.
P J Evans @ 211
Or better yet, we can have the Anti-choice women demonstrate their commitment to their cause by having six pounds of dead flesh shoved into their wombs for 3 months to give them a fresh appreciation of what they are sentencing other women to.
ixnay @ 208
Um, so you’re saying having an abortion is worse than having two kids?
Eureka Springs @ 199
;0)!
I should just add that I’m not criticizing the politesse being exhibited toward our distinguished triangulating guest. But it does remind me, just a touch, of the courtesy extended by the Baghdad rug merchants to John McCain.
cleter @ 200
;0)
Oklahoma kiddo @
220
I thought you were very polite ;p
Oklahoma kiddo @ 218
Well, there was a moment there when people got a bit nervous, y’know. :)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 218
I thought your comment was great.
montag @ 181
;0)
(incompetently edited to remove the ziggurat)
HotFlash @ 217
ixnay @ 208
Muzzy @
136
There seems to be a popular distortion among anti-choice folks that women who choose to terminate a pregnancy, for whatever reason, don’t endure emotional consequences and/or difficulty coping even when the decision to terminate is sound and firm.
Except when they’re claiming that all sorts of mental illness result from such a decision. Next time we’re discussing the emotional consequences of having an abortion (I had one when I was 22 years old and unmarried), let’s also discuss the emotional consequences of having children. I have two sons whom I love dearly, but the life-long repercussions of having children pale in comparison with those of terminating a pregnancy. I have no patience with any of the studies correlating depression etc. with abortion precisely because they never include the obvious control group: those who have children.
Um, so you’re saying having an abortion is worse than having two kids?
Nope, just saying that having two kids has major repercussions. Almost certainly moreso than the abortion. I have wept more tears and had way more sleepless nights over my children. There are always the pro and con checklists: finish college vs. poverty, have an outside career vs. raise children (clearly a career in itself), get married/not, so forth and so on. BTW, the unplanned/terminated pregnancy was despite an IUD in place.
The Catholic five, Alito, Scalia, Thomas, and most likely Roberts are Opus Dei whichat is an extremists branch of Catholic zealots. Kennedy is supposedly a liberal Catholic but obviously from his ruling he’s in the pope’s bed as well.
Good Article
http://www.counterpunch.org/ca…..02006.html
The rise to power of religious dogmatists in the guise of an Opus Dei clique on the Supreme Court through the rulings of Scalia, Thomas, and potentially Alito is a legitimate cause for concern not only on Capitol Hill, but also throughout America. Just imagine the outcry if the Supreme Court had four radical Islamicists, four zealous Zionists or four fixated followers of Reverend Sun Myung Moon.
PJ at 196
Thanks for the reply! So, do you think we are in a ‘phony war’ where all sides know what’s going on, but nobody is talking out loud about it?
Do you think Bush secretly invoked the UE using the AUMF in ‘03?
Reading the blogs and listening to progressive talk radio today it’s becoming more and more apparent that the people are really pissed off! It’s only a matter of time before two million people march on Washington demanding the prosecution, conviction and sentencing of the fascist that call themselves Republicans. Some are deserving of being charged with treason. Others are deserving of being charged as war criminals. Send them off to the Hague to be tried by the War Crimes Tribunal before they try and flee to Paraguay.
FYI, new new thread
I am happy that Hassidic Jews and conservative Muslims can practice their faiths in this country without legal hindrance. I am happier that my government has no legal basis to impose one belief’s views on the other, or either on me.
Being anti-Catholic is not the same as being bigoted. It has often been the reverse. Some regard Catholic views of birth control, for example, as throwbacks representative of centuries-long held views that science is illegitimate because it trespasses on God’s domain.
Doubtful; I prefer Stephen Gould’s articulation that they are complementary domains. But science, and the logic on which it depends, exposes the self-serving anachronisms expressed by certain male authority figures. They then rely on the religious equivalent of patriotism – infallibility – proving that at the top, religion, like law, is inseparable from politics.
It is an echo of that debate that I hear in Justice Kennedy’s argument, so thoughtfully described as “limited”, yet with such sweeping scope. The law will permit the legislature not to allow women to choose for themselves because they are incapable of making sound choices – in the view of old, powerful men. Little wonder that some are measuring Justice Kennedy for his mitre and a different set of robes.
Oklahoma kiddo >
There is an interesting twist to all that.
In the book “The Origin of Consciousness in The Breakdown of the BiCamerial Mind”, the author suggests that before said “breakdown” the majority of the humans heard voices inside their heads which they used for advise and from this comes our mythology of gods etc.
Who really knows…
“Religions that teach brotherly love have been used as an excuse for persecution, and our profoundest scientific insight is made into a means of mass destruction.” – Bertrand Russell
We humans are a special case in the universe, I think. We can abuse *anything*.
Oklahoma kiddo @
224
you acquitted yourself quite gracefully.
The Republicans are trying to ‘buy’ the Catholic vote for future elections.
But, with great backlash and the unconventional American Catholic being more of a cafeteria Catholic, there could be backlash against Republicans.
They might also pose it as part of their Culture War to pit Church against everything else. Hey, it fits in with their view that government should be a theocracy, so long as THEY get to win and run the world.
If Roe v. Wade is overturned how long do ya suppose it will take for about a hundred doctors to ignore it and save their patient’s lives by doing an abortion. After all, isn’t it the law they have to save life?
I don’t mean to complain, but it’s rather difficult to get through so many responses because there’s so many great ones! Just sayin…!
If enough American Roman catholics agree to withdraw for a time from the church, particularly their financial support except specifically for works to help the poor, changes would occur, maybe even the eventual election of a pastoral pope who seems to know what it’s like to feel, and be human, like beloved John XXIII did.
“…so, if dead babies are out of limbo and now go straight to heaven, well, aborted babies are actually being helped along to paradise, instead of living on earth and maybe doing bad things and going to the bad place, by their twisted utterly wrong logic…”
For years, as a Christian, I have held that sentiment, questioning the pro-lifers stridency. I just wonder why they never seem to proclaim a loving God, who always redeems the innocent.
No aborted human life that has a soul is wasted. To claim otherwise is to deny God’s steadfast love.
If enough American Roman catholics agree to withdraw for a time from the church, particularly their financial support except specifically for works to help the poor, changes would occur, maybe even the eventual election of a pastoral pope who seems to know what it’s like to feel, and be human, like beloved John XXIII did.
“…so, if dead babies are out of limbo and now go straight to heaven, well, aborted babies are actually being helped along to paradise, instead of living on earth and maybe doing bad things and going to the bad place, by their twisted utterly wrong logic…”
For years, as a Christian, I have held that sentiment, questioning the pro-lifers stridency. I just wonder why they never seem to proclaim a loving God, who always redeems the innocent.
No aborted human life that has a soul is wasted. To claim otherwise is to deny God’s steadfast love.
I just discovered an email in the latest White House document dump from Pope Ratzinger to the five Catholic Supreme Court Justices threatening them with excommunication and denial of communion if they didn’t follow the orders of Pope Ratzinger in the Vatican.
Okay, I made that up. About the email. But it wouldn’t surprise me in the least, especially after the stunt pulled by Catholic cardinals in the U.S. (before an election no less) about any Catholic not following their’s and the Vatican’s religious dictates not receiving communion.
And yet, I’m old enough to remember the fear tactic used about John F. Kennedy that he’d be a papal lackey, which was totally unfounded…back then.
Now, we see five Catholic Supreme Court Justices actually do the bidding of Pope Ratzinger in the Vatican, essentially turning America into a satellite religious police state of the Vatican.
Forget the threat from Osama bin Laden and the al Qaeda, we need to invade the Vatican and remove this religious terrorist threat first. The Vatican’s Swiss Guard will never stand a chance.
Forgive me if I missed this imformation in previous comments:
Whatever the procedure is called, it is relatively rare, and certainly
not done lightly..Figures vary from 500 per year quoted by pro-choicers, and 2000 per year quoted by pro-lifers. I fear this decision is just an interim precedent step which will be cited by the NEXT anti-abortion cases.
Their decisions have less to do with Catholicism and more to do with conservatism. SCOTUS is very, very republican. And very, very male. It was designed that way!
buying into extreme mysoginistic right-wing canards
I think the word you’re looking for is “misogynistic” – a good mnemonic device to help remember this one is to think “gyn” as in OB-Gyn.
The Vatican’s Swiss Guard will never stand a chance.
I wouldn’t be too sure about that. We’re currently getting our butts kicked in Iraq by a bunch of 15th century goatherders. What makes you think we’d stand a chance against the Swiss Guard?