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	<title>Comments on: Tell Me How This Ends &#8212; II</title>
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		<title>By: serena1313</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/04/23/tell-me-how-this-ends-ii/#comment-644871</link>
		<dc:creator>serena1313</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 02:58:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/04/23/tell-me-how-this-ends-ii/#comment-644871</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Torturing and abusing people rarely if ever produce factual information. Rumsfeld used to tell us they had gleaned valuable information, but he never substantiated his claims with evidence. Likewise it is highly suspect that their “&lt;em&gt;alternative&lt;/em&gt;” interrogation methods are actually producing weapon caches or valuable information and/or persons?   Any evidence? Furthermore information gathered under those conditions historically is not shown to be reliable.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The troops offer money for information. Often  an individual having an &lt;em&gt;issue&lt;/em&gt; with a neighbour or some other person can kill two birds with one stone: use the opportunity to extract revenge and collect money simultaneously.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;“The first casualty of war is the truth.” The  White House’s penchant for fabricating facts and inundating the public with happy language, truth  seems nonexistent today. The military, too. Either they choose not to be candid or really believe the crap they tell us. Nevertheless it is disingenious and disturbing.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The military went so far as to cover the truth about Tillman’s death and Jessica Lynch’s (?) rescue. If they could not even be forthcoming about those two incidents requires asking what else?   &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Why would anyone believe they are being forthcoming now? &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Hence anything they tell us becomes automatically suspect. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;More disturbing, at least for myself, is that &lt;em&gt;anyone&lt;/em&gt; would think torture and abuse are &lt;em&gt;acceptable&lt;/em&gt;! What has America become? &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Last but not least, FYI: someone asked who counts Iraqi fatalities? &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;A year ago July 2006 according to the Lancet Report 655,000 - 750,000 Iraqis had been killed. Their report was published in the respected British Journal of Medicine. Inasmuch as the Lancet was attacked as not credible, by the US, that is the company relied upon to determine the number of lives lost during natural disasters and wars, has been for years. Their numbers are not questioned. Just recently — i forget where — the Lancet was accredited as certifiable, credible and highly respected.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Wherefore the aforementioned numbers, being almost a year ago, makes plausible another 200,000 or more Iraqi lives have been claimed since. A guesstimate suggesting 1 million plus Iraqis may have been killed to date is not in the range of ridiculousness.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Torturing and abusing people rarely if ever produce factual information. Rumsfeld used to tell us they had gleaned valuable information, but he never substantiated his claims with evidence. Likewise it is highly suspect that their “<em>alternative</em>” interrogation methods are actually producing weapon caches or valuable information and/or persons?   Any evidence? Furthermore information gathered under those conditions historically is not shown to be reliable.</p>
<p>The troops offer money for information. Often  an individual having an <em>issue</em> with a neighbour or some other person can kill two birds with one stone: use the opportunity to extract revenge and collect money simultaneously.  </p>
<p>“The first casualty of war is the truth.” The  White House’s penchant for fabricating facts and inundating the public with happy language, truth  seems nonexistent today. The military, too. Either they choose not to be candid or really believe the crap they tell us. Nevertheless it is disingenious and disturbing.</p>
<p>The military went so far as to cover the truth about Tillman’s death and Jessica Lynch’s (?) rescue. If they could not even be forthcoming about those two incidents requires asking what else?   </p>
<p>Why would anyone believe they are being forthcoming now? </p>
<p>Hence anything they tell us becomes automatically suspect. </p>
<p>More disturbing, at least for myself, is that <em>anyone</em> would think torture and abuse are <em>acceptable</em>! What has America become? </p>
<p>Last but not least, FYI: someone asked who counts Iraqi fatalities? </p>
<p>A year ago July 2006 according to the Lancet Report 655,000 &#8211; 750,000 Iraqis had been killed. Their report was published in the respected British Journal of Medicine. Inasmuch as the Lancet was attacked as not credible, by the US, that is the company relied upon to determine the number of lives lost during natural disasters and wars, has been for years. Their numbers are not questioned. Just recently — i forget where — the Lancet was accredited as certifiable, credible and highly respected.</p>
<p>Wherefore the aforementioned numbers, being almost a year ago, makes plausible another 200,000 or more Iraqi lives have been claimed since. A guesstimate suggesting 1 million plus Iraqis may have been killed to date is not in the range of ridiculousness.</p>
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		<title>By: Timtimes</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/04/23/tell-me-how-this-ends-ii/#comment-644050</link>
		<dc:creator>Timtimes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:41:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/04/23/tell-me-how-this-ends-ii/#comment-644050</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The most damning part of the Warriors show was the fact that the Iraqi soldiers were laughing amongst themselves that their local religious leader had more of a weapons cache than the soldiers were finding….yet NONE spoke up about it.  Our troops don’t understand what the Iraqi troops are saying and I dare say this little bit of (imbedded?) video would never have seen the light of day had any interpreters noticed it before release.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Enjo.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The most damning part of the Warriors show was the fact that the Iraqi soldiers were laughing amongst themselves that their local religious leader had more of a weapons cache than the soldiers were finding….yet NONE spoke up about it.  Our troops don’t understand what the Iraqi troops are saying and I dare say this little bit of (imbedded?) video would never have seen the light of day had any interpreters noticed it before release.</p>
<p>Enjo.</p>
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		<title>By: argosfalcon</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/04/23/tell-me-how-this-ends-ii/#comment-643388</link>
		<dc:creator>argosfalcon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:11:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/04/23/tell-me-how-this-ends-ii/#comment-643388</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;You know I have been struck be something and how close this is to a film out of the 80’s called ” Red Dawn” where America is occupied by foreign forces. Maybe its time someone took a look at it again, it might be a way of getting across the picture of what its like from the other side of this conflict in a way Americans can understand. Just a thought.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know I have been struck be something and how close this is to a film out of the 80’s called ” Red Dawn” where America is occupied by foreign forces. Maybe its time someone took a look at it again, it might be a way of getting across the picture of what its like from the other side of this conflict in a way Americans can understand. Just a thought.</p>
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		<title>By: Badwater</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/04/23/tell-me-how-this-ends-ii/#comment-643375</link>
		<dc:creator>Badwater</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:54:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/04/23/tell-me-how-this-ends-ii/#comment-643375</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-643311&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;Gunga Djinn @ 85 &lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Morning all,&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I have just returned from my ritual review of today’s tragic metrics. It’s something I do to retain a grasp on the reality of what’s happening to us (the human race).&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;* April 2007 still on track to be one of our deadliest months in Iraq since the war began. (in or near the top ten)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;* Newsweek marks milestone: 25,000 U.S. Dead and wounded. (via Iraq Casualties -dot- Org)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;* Bombings continue to rock Baghdad (20, 30, 40 dead as the clock ticks)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;* Iraqi dead &amp; wounded: who’s counting?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;* U.S. Battlefield Wounded-to-Dead ratio: approx 16:1 (Vietnam was less than 3:1) The horribly BAD statistic being made to look good.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;* 150,000 U.S. troops represents 1/20th of 1% of the U.S. population (i.e. of course we all need &amp; want to support our troops, but we MUST consider the metrics) This metric could safely be compared to the passengers of the Titanic supporting its’ navigator’s charted course, and it’s captain’s order to ’steam on!’.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;We all gotta look at the metrics, see them for what they are, and once and for all disabuse ourselves of these platitudes “win”, “support” and “stay the course”.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Bush would have a different view if he had members of his family at risk in Iraq.  The war is not that real to him now.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-643311"><em>Gunga Djinn @ 85 </em></a></p>
<blockquote><p>Morning all,</p>
<p>I have just returned from my ritual review of today’s tragic metrics. It’s something I do to retain a grasp on the reality of what’s happening to us (the human race).</p>
<p>* April 2007 still on track to be one of our deadliest months in Iraq since the war began. (in or near the top ten)</p>
<p>* Newsweek marks milestone: 25,000 U.S. Dead and wounded. (via Iraq Casualties -dot- Org)</p>
<p>* Bombings continue to rock Baghdad (20, 30, 40 dead as the clock ticks)</p>
<p>* Iraqi dead &amp; wounded: who’s counting?</p>
<p>* U.S. Battlefield Wounded-to-Dead ratio: approx 16:1 (Vietnam was less than 3:1) The horribly BAD statistic being made to look good.</p>
<p>* 150,000 U.S. troops represents 1/20th of 1% of the U.S. population (i.e. of course we all need &amp; want to support our troops, but we MUST consider the metrics) This metric could safely be compared to the passengers of the Titanic supporting its’ navigator’s charted course, and it’s captain’s order to ’steam on!’.</p>
<p>We all gotta look at the metrics, see them for what they are, and once and for all disabuse ourselves of these platitudes “win”, “support” and “stay the course”.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Bush would have a different view if he had members of his family at risk in Iraq.  The war is not that real to him now.</p>
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		<title>By: klyde</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/04/23/tell-me-how-this-ends-ii/#comment-643353</link>
		<dc:creator>klyde</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:38:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/04/23/tell-me-how-this-ends-ii/#comment-643353</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;It doesn’t end.  Why would anyone think that it will?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It doesn’t end.  Why would anyone think that it will?</p>
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		<title>By: eCAHNomics</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/04/23/tell-me-how-this-ends-ii/#comment-643327</link>
		<dc:creator>eCAHNomics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:19:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/04/23/tell-me-how-this-ends-ii/#comment-643327</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;So let’s deconstruct Petraeus. W had to pass over 3 or 4 generals to find one who would do his bidding. Petraeus’s (laughingly-referred-to-as) success in Tal Afar has been trashed by subsequent events. His (laughingly-referred-to-as) COIN manual recommends the ink spot theory, which describes more what insurgents do, rather than what COINs should do.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So let’s deconstruct Petraeus. W had to pass over 3 or 4 generals to find one who would do his bidding. Petraeus’s (laughingly-referred-to-as) success in Tal Afar has been trashed by subsequent events. His (laughingly-referred-to-as) COIN manual recommends the ink spot theory, which describes more what insurgents do, rather than what COINs should do.</p>
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		<title>By: eCAHNomics</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/04/23/tell-me-how-this-ends-ii/#comment-643314</link>
		<dc:creator>eCAHNomics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:09:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/04/23/tell-me-how-this-ends-ii/#comment-643314</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-643303&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;Scarecrow @ 83&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;eCahnomics — the phrase belongs to Petraeus, not me.  I’m just repeating it (and emphasizing its relevance), trying to get others to follow the logical path you’ve already traveled.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Petraeus is an idiot. And the fact that he’s the hero of the military says buckets.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-643303"><em>Scarecrow @ 83</em></a></p>
<blockquote><p>eCahnomics — the phrase belongs to Petraeus, not me.  I’m just repeating it (and emphasizing its relevance), trying to get others to follow the logical path you’ve already traveled.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Petraeus is an idiot. And the fact that he’s the hero of the military says buckets.</p>
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		<title>By: Gunga Djinn</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/04/23/tell-me-how-this-ends-ii/#comment-643311</link>
		<dc:creator>Gunga Djinn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:06:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/04/23/tell-me-how-this-ends-ii/#comment-643311</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Morning all,&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I have just returned from my ritual review of today’s tragic metrics. It’s something I do to retain a grasp on the reality of what’s happening to us (the human race).&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;* April 2007 still on track to be one of our deadliest months in Iraq since the war began. (in or near the top ten)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;* Newsweek marks milestone: 25,000 U.S. Dead and wounded. (via Iraq Casualties -dot- Org)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;* Bombings continue to rock Baghdad (20, 30, 40 dead as the clock ticks)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;* Iraqi dead &amp; wounded: who’s counting?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;* U.S. Battlefield Wounded-to-Dead ratio: approx 16:1 (Vietnam was less than 3:1) The horribly BAD statistic being made to look good.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;* 150,000 U.S. troops represents 1/20th of 1% of the U.S. population (i.e. of course we all need &amp; want to support our troops, but we MUST consider the metrics) This metric could safely be compared to the passengers of the Titanic supporting its’ navigator’s charted course, and it’s captain’s order to ’steam on!’.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;We all gotta look at the metrics, see them for what they are, and once and for all disabuse ourselves of these platitudes “win”, “support” and “stay the course”.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Morning all,</p>
<p>I have just returned from my ritual review of today’s tragic metrics. It’s something I do to retain a grasp on the reality of what’s happening to us (the human race).</p>
<p>* April 2007 still on track to be one of our deadliest months in Iraq since the war began. (in or near the top ten)</p>
<p>* Newsweek marks milestone: 25,000 U.S. Dead and wounded. (via Iraq Casualties -dot- Org)</p>
<p>* Bombings continue to rock Baghdad (20, 30, 40 dead as the clock ticks)</p>
<p>* Iraqi dead &amp; wounded: who’s counting?</p>
<p>* U.S. Battlefield Wounded-to-Dead ratio: approx 16:1 (Vietnam was less than 3:1) The horribly BAD statistic being made to look good.</p>
<p>* 150,000 U.S. troops represents 1/20th of 1% of the U.S. population (i.e. of course we all need &amp; want to support our troops, but we MUST consider the metrics) This metric could safely be compared to the passengers of the Titanic supporting its’ navigator’s charted course, and it’s captain’s order to ’steam on!’.</p>
<p>We all gotta look at the metrics, see them for what they are, and once and for all disabuse ourselves of these platitudes “win”, “support” and “stay the course”.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: TheraP</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/04/23/tell-me-how-this-ends-ii/#comment-643310</link>
		<dc:creator>TheraP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:05:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/04/23/tell-me-how-this-ends-ii/#comment-643310</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Fascinating how the bush folks do war.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Send the troops first and ask for money later (= the surge).&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Build the wall first and get people to sign off on it later  (= the 12 foot high secret).&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Remember when this surge was billed as the US and Iraq doing this totally together?  Remember how they were supposed to have a united chain of command, so that all decisions were made jointly?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Remember when we were a republic?  And professed a belief in democratic principles?  Remember when we had a constitution?  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;How quaint….&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fascinating how the bush folks do war.</p>
<p>Send the troops first and ask for money later (= the surge).</p>
<p>Build the wall first and get people to sign off on it later  (= the 12 foot high secret).</p>
<p>Remember when this surge was billed as the US and Iraq doing this totally together?  Remember how they were supposed to have a united chain of command, so that all decisions were made jointly?</p>
<p>Remember when we were a republic?  And professed a belief in democratic principles?  Remember when we had a constitution?  </p>
<p>How quaint….</p>
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		<title>By: Scarecrow</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/04/23/tell-me-how-this-ends-ii/#comment-643303</link>
		<dc:creator>Scarecrow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:02:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/04/23/tell-me-how-this-ends-ii/#comment-643303</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;eCahnomics — the phrase belongs to Petraeus, not me.  I’m just repeating it (and emphasizing its relevance), trying to get others to follow the logical path you’ve already traveled.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>eCahnomics — the phrase belongs to Petraeus, not me.  I’m just repeating it (and emphasizing its relevance), trying to get others to follow the logical path you’ve already traveled.</p>
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