
There were at least 70 people killed in Iraq on Sunday — twin car bombs, suicide bombers, pulling passengers from another sect off a bus and shooting them — just an average day in an endless chain of carnage. Last night, CBS’ 60 Minutes featured a segment by Lara Logan on what life is like for two families trying to survive in Baghdad.
Earlier in the week, the WaPo followed General Petraeus, who once asked a reporter, “tell me how this ends,” as he flew around Baghdad looking for signs of progress.
“On a bad day, I actually fly Baghdad just to reassure myself that life still goes on,” he said. . ..
The article quotes him as spotting positive changes in some areas — markets open, people shopping, traffic moving in some areas — and problems elsewhere. But I have to wonder how he thinks the whole strategy can succeed, even in the occupying framework in which US forces function.
For example, part of the pacification strategy is to secure endangered sectarian neighborhoods by essentially walling them off, limiting the points where people can enter or exit so that US and Iraqi forces can concentrate security on the limited check points. But in one prominent Sunni district of the capital, the local Sunni leaders objected strongly to being walled in, forcing Prime Minister al Maliki to order the US to stop building the wall:
BAGHDAD (Reuters) – Iraq’s prime minister said on Sunday he had urged the U.S. military to halt work on a wall separating a Baghdad Sunni enclave from nearby Shi’ite areas after sharp criticism from some residents.
The cement wall around the district of Adhamiya is part of a new U.S. military tactic to protect flashpoint neighborhoods with barriers, in a security crackdown in the capital that is seen as a final attempt to halt civil war between majority Shi’ites and minority Sunni Arabs. . . .
Speaking in Cairo at the start of an Arab tour to drum up support for Iraq, Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki, a Shi’ite Islamist, said he objected to the 5-km (3-mile) wall, which residents said would isolate them from other communities and sharpen sectarian tensions.
“I asked yesterday that it be stopped and that alternatives be found to protect the area,” Maliki said in his first public comments on the issue.
“I said that I fear this wall might have repercussions which remind us of other walls, which we reject,” he added.
Some Adhamiya residents have compared the wall to barriers erected by Israel in the occupied West Bank.
Having his principal security measure compared to the Israeli treatment of Palestinians is probably not the frame Petraeus had in mind. Over at Talk Left, Big Tent Democrat naturally asked, “is there a Plan B?” Continuing the Reuter’s story:
The U.S. military sought on Sunday to play down any hint of friction between Maliki and American commanders behind the Baghdad plan, saying it would coordinate with the Iraqi government and Iraqi commanders on how best to establish security measures.
“The government of Iraq and MNF-I (Multinational Force-Iraq) do agree that we need to protect the people of Iraq. How that is done is always being discussed and we will continue that dialogue,” the military said in a statement.
Okay, but is the US military now telling us that there was no coordination with the al Maliki government before US engineers starting building the wall around the Adhamiya district? Or did al Maliki give his approval without asking the local district leaders, who are all Sunnis? [Update: the locals were told, but had not giving their consent, according to this report. (h/t cbl) And Juan Cole has more on al Maliki's likely role.] Either way, it is not a good sign when a key component of the US strategy, intended to create a climate for reconciliation between the Shia majority and Sunni minority, moves forward without either coordination or the consent of the affected Iraqi officials on either side.
Another key part of the strategy is to “sweep” through neighborhoods and “clear” them of “insurgents.” But what does this mean? If you watched the PBS series, America at a Crossroads (which I found generally excellent except for the Perle propaganda film) you might have seen the segment called Warriors, which followed an American infantry company as it performed these functions. What we saw were heavily armed US troops going house to house and searching them for weapons and insurgent sympathizers. These are not police actions, using warrants; they are military raids, with our troops breaking down entry gates and front doors, rounding up everyone inside, searching everything and everywhere, questioning everyone in the family about whether they know where the “enemy” is hiding, and arresting anyone they believe to be suspicious. But who, exactly, are the enemy is this scene?
The warriors have every reason to be aggressive and suspicious; they are the targets and victims of daily bombing and sniping attacks, as we see in the film. But the question is whether the overall strategy can succeed. In a country occupied by an unpopular foreign power, with soldiers who don’t speak the language, know little of the culture and probably have little respect for the customs and religious beliefs of the residents, these house to house tactics do not seem calculated to “win hearts and minds.” Try to imagine an analogous situation of hated foreign troops raiding your home, turning everything upside down, frightening your family, and possibly arresting your son/brother merely because he is known to be opposed to having foreign armies in his country.
In the US press, these tactics are sanitized: we’re just “clearing” out the “enemy” or the “terrorists,” and who could complain about that? But I can’t imagine that any self respecting people, Americans or Iraqis, would see it that way if they were on the receiving end.
Another article from this Saturday’s New York Times fills in more of the picture. It seems that US forces, while now clearly directed (after Abu Ghraib) to avoid torturing those they arrest, are routinely turning over arrested Iraqis to the Iraq security forces — who then torture their fellow countrymen to get intelligence. If the Americans think the intelligence is worthwhile, they may look the other way regarding the torture.
“I prepared him for the Americans and let them take his confession,” Capt. Bassim Hassan said through an interpreter. “We know how to make them talk. We know their back streets. We beat them. I don’t beat them that much, but enough so he feels the pain and it makes him desperate.”
As American and Iraqi troops set up these outposts in dangerous neighborhoods to take on the insurgents block by block, they find themselves continually facing lethal attacks. In practice, the Americans and Iraqis seem to have different answers about what tactics are acceptable in response.
Beatings like this, which are usually hard to verify but appear to be widespread given the fears about the Iraqi security forces frequently expressed by ordinary Iraqis, present the Americans with a largely undiscussed dilemma.
Apparently, General Pace’s direction (remember when he overruled Rummy?) that US troops have an affirmative duty not merely to report but to stop mistreatment by the Iraqis when they see it is no longer operative.
I’m sure the Administration finds it easy to excuse this behavior if, as the article reports, the “intelligence” actually leads to discoveries of hidden arms and further suspects. But we need to remind ourselves that mistreatment of prisoners and torture are crimes under the US military code — and a war crime under international law — and an occupying force cannot stand back when it know this is happening during its operations and claim it was not responsible.
With US casualties rising, the Republican talking heads spent all weekend trying to focus attention on Harry Reid saying “the war is lost.” Arguing that we’re “winning” is not much to run on, but it’s better than facing Petraeus’ query: Tell me how this ends.
Tristero at Hullabaloo has more.
Related posts:
- Torture: Obama Heeded Maliki on Abuse Photos, Says McClatchy; What That Says for Our Occupation
- In Iraq, As in So Many Contexts, Withdrawal is Victory
- Changing of the Guard: US Troops Withdraw from Iraqi Cities; Maliki Declares “Sovereignty Day”
- Maliki vs. Odierno: Who Blinks First?
- The Major General’s Temper Tantrum





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zed
Good morning scarecrow
The wall is Plan B.
Would that the “leaders” and Congress read this blog.
I feel so sorry for the Iraqi people because they are simply protecting their homesteads.
What a horrible way to have democracy brought to a country. This president and this war are both the biggest disaster in the history of the USA. It will end, as Bush said, when he is out of office.
Chimppeach!
If Prince Harry can serve, so can members of the American Royal Family.
The Democrats really have to stand up to Bush on this war budget. They chose this path to fight Bush. It was a soft push in the first place. If they back down from this, they will be extra soft. For once, it would be nice for them to stand up to their convictions.
Nice work, Scarecrow, as always.
Listening to NBC News this morning they were already talking about abandoning the “gated communities” concept. Surprisingly had a small clip of Rep. Ron Wyden D-WA talking about how we needed to build bridges between Sunni and Shia rather than walls. (So bizarre to watch the mainstream media at this point in time; can never tell when they will have one of these lucid moments.)
OT — I see that Rove must have run right home like a whiney assed titty baby and cranked up the Wurlitzer to attack the evil, wicked monster Sheryl Crow, who’d threatened his person with a mere touch to the arm and a reminder that he draws his check on us, including her.
Oh, the horror…
What a pathetic puling wretch of a man he is. This is why he uses Bush like some clinging parasite, instead of standing on his own two feet and running for office on his own merits: because he is an absolutely useless slug on his own, without personal charm or responsibility. Ugh, I want him FIRED.
They can’t handle the truth. In fact, they HATE the truth.
Mornin’ Scarecrow and Firedogs,
posted this pic last night – I would like to know just where the materials for the wall have come from – this is a country that is lucky to have 1-2 hours electricity a day outside the green zone and yet has the capacity to fabricate these huge pieces and move them – even if these barriers were just sitting around someplace in Baghdad – how are they being moved in to place ? who is moving them ?
the few reports about it out there made it sound like US Military personnel were putting the walls in place and of course not a peep about the deadly ramifications of that plan
http://rawstory.com/images/new/adhamiyawall.jpg
(Pls pardon OT… multiply EPU’d)
Feeling adventuresome? Interested in who else is in the FDL community, and where they are? Maybe get in touch with them via anonymous message?
Hope to see you on our unofficial FirePup Fan map. Pls don’t forget to pick the right pin for yourself, and to add a fun “shoutout” and maybe a pic. At this writing, there’re 346 of us with pins! :)
(… and now we return you to your normally-scheduled thread, in progress …)
ccmask @ 5
I agree. Did anyone see that Gangs of Iraq on Frontline? The US trained the Iraqi army, they were ready to go and then the US told them they were going to firebomb Falluja. And, what a surprise, the Iraqis said they didn’t want to fight their own people, and they left the army.
If that’s not proof that there’s nothing the US can do there, I don’t know what is.
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 9
Now they’re saying that the Democrats are pulling away from that statement. Again, the message is that the Democrats are soft.
Here’s a picture of downtown Columbus I took yesterday.
That’s it for me, off to the salt mines I go.
Is it Weds that they’re going to subpeona Condi? What’s the subpeona/testimony schedule for this week? Does anyone know? I know Patraeus is in there somewhere.
per NBC Nightly News Friday evening, the U.S. is “mending fences” – by building the Wall.
I suppose they thought it was funny.
Wonder who had the contract to build the wall?
He doesn’t:
Good morning everyone. Lovely day here in Boston. I understand we have been allotted 3 days of Spring/summer, and then it will be Fall. Enjoy.
Not much on the Gonzales watch — if you have no honor, you don’t have to resign when it’s the honorable thing to do.
Love the imagery of Rove being “touched” by Crow. Do you think he went out and bought a CD?
Columbus looks terrific-have family get together there late in may around Cirque del soleil performance-very cool!
Tell me how this ends:
REMEMBER:
Have a nice day!
the wall is such a good example of why the USA should be leaving now – instead of later.
if we build walls to make sunni ghettos and then leave… what do you think is going to happen? … genocidal massacres maybe? bernhard covers this very well at moon of alabama.
thank goodness shia iraqis stopped that insanity…
I have seen no one, not even Bush, tell us what winning in Iraq means, or that his version of what’s supposed to happen is any better than what the Democrats are suggesting.
Bush has offered no vision for the future of Iraq. We are there for no reason at all.
Bush in denial, says Harry Reid, in speech text that pre-empts Bush’s press moment later this morning. Ah, the ol’ boxer gets a jab in.
Scarecrow @ 19
supposed to be 82 today in worcester… that will make it 3 beautiful days in a row.
i predict a beautiful spring and summer (weather wise).
… not with a bang, but a whimper.
no wonder concrete is so expensive.
coffee anyone?
Georgesimian @ 23
“Winning” is whatever we’re on the verge of, if only we stay the course. Consider it “stay bait.”
Paul Krugman has an op-ed on the war funding vote. It’s Times Select, but C&L has a snippet.
My immediate thought when they informed us of this wall was: Warsaw Ghetto.
Imagine you’re a Sunni. You already know you’re a minority and you’ve been hated by Shia during Sadaam’s rule.
So now they tell you they’re building this wall to protect you. What are you going to think? Oh, yeah…. we’ll be walled in to make it easier to exterminate us!
How is such a tactic part of counter-insurgency? It’s nothing but a power play! A way to keep people under control. In the current climate, for people in a city torn by civil war, to feel “walled in” might not feel protective or friendly. It might seem more like a corral – where they’ve penned you in – for some kind of nefarious purpose.
This business of war sickens me. And the “warriors” are simply getting further and further from anything that appears to be good or virtuous.
cbl @
10
precisely. And GWB43 campaigned on the talking point that we weren’t going to get into the business of nation building, yet here we are.
Prairie Sunshine – thanks for the link – am pleased to at least see a pre emptive move – would’ve liked it a little more if he’d mentioned the abandonment of the ‘when they stand up’ policy to bolster his ‘denial’ argument
Good morning Scarecrow, another spot-on post.
Here’s a contrary view on the Rove incident, I don’t think people should be touched against their will. It’s rude at a minimum, and hurtful to people who have been abused.
Under the circumstances I think his saying “Don’t touch me” was appropriate.
Scarecrow @ 29
See http://mgpaquin.wordpress.com/
Prairie Sunshine @
24
I like it. And not one lie put forth under the cover of two-sided reporting.
More from Krugman:
ifthethunderdontgetya@ 14
thanks much, ITTDGY…can’t open it for some reason, but I’ll trust the rest of the FirePups to tell me all about it.
TheraP@ 30
I think this is the kind of mistakes that are made when youngsters with little experience and less knowledge of history are put in charge.
Does noone in positions of authority, enlisted or civilian, ever read history? Do they never do systemic analysis and modeling of decisions before they implement them?
egregious — You’re right; persistent unwanted touching may be sexual harrassment in the business world. But I still like the imagery. I’ll go to my room.
analysis?
who needs stinking thought- we know we are right-just ask george.
hey bush-reality bites
I found the 60 min report poor. What I got were the profiles of 2 Sunni Iraqis. They were extremely good at showing the world the result of violence in Iraq…you get victims. But they could not shed any light on the cause of the violence unless L Logan would prompt them with words like militia or insurgent. Notice how AQ never came up. What we did not see were the Iraqis in the refugee camps or more important a Shia family who may have asked L logan when the Americans were going to leave.
i’m very worried about what the iraq occupation emergency supplemental spending bill will look like when it comes our of conference.
i don’t want the answer to scarecrow’s question
to be
well, i’ve been freaked out ever since the house passed H.R.1591… but, then there was lots of people telling me that the bill was a good thing and that it wouldn’t end up just being a vote to fund bush’s war (either by withdrawal timeline stripping in conference or by a bush signing statement)…
i so want to be wrong…
Rayne @ 37:
Having watched these bozos for 6 years now, all they try is negative reinforcement.
My thinking is that Rove looks for weakness, and he either tries to manipulate someone through their weak points or to destroy them that way.
Power and control. That’s all these people know. They have no sense of what it’s like to feel vulnerable – except to use that to their advantage.
They don’t really understand peace. They simply cannot fathom that.
Rayne @ 37
Of course they do. This whole conflict was analyzed by the CIA and the State Department in late 1990 and early 1991 in the run-up to Desert Storm. On the basis of that analysis, Bush-41 decided not to topple Saddam and occupy Iraq. And in 1998, he wrote:
egregious @ 33
I’ll defend Sheryl on this. Managers in the corporate world are often trained on charisma and effective interpersonal relations within the letter of the law; they are told to shake hands and touch another person’s forearm (limiting touch to forearm and hand alone) to cement a bond. Politicians are likewise encouraged to do that. Watch video of a seasoned politician greeting persons in a crowd and you’ll see that they not only shake hands but make a gesture that takes a person’s hand while touching their forearm as well.
Someone working in Rove’s position as an unelected but public official and politician should be extremely used to being touched in public, and a venue like that Press dinner and Sheryl Crow are quite non-threatening. Perhaps this last 6 years of forcing approved-Bushie-only crowds has spoiled Rove; could be a sign that Rove simply needs to retire and get the hell out of the public eye.
Oh please, may I never have to see this sluggard again.
Scarecrow—come back, all is forgiven. We agree on persistent unwanted touch but I am arguing that a single incident such as Crow’s touching his arm is still crossing the line.
There are a lot of people including one of my closest friends who don’t wish to be touched by anyone except their spouse and children. Contact is viewed as an invasion of their personal space.
Sociologically touch is “permitted” by higher status people toward lower status people. Not everyone on the lower end of the food chain thinks this is a great idea.
Scarecrow @ 38
In the business world, anyone has an absolute right to insist that no one touch them without authorization. However, in “the business world,” if you attend a social event and insist upon your right not to be touched by hissing at people, you will be percieved as a righteous, self-absorbed jerk.
Draw your conclusions as you see fit
corry342
Wigwam @ 43
Ah. I see I need to restate my query:
I’m sure GHWB41 did read history…but the so-called Fortunate Son or any of the minions his henchmen have elevated?
Rayne—I could be totally wrong on this but I thought she touched him as he was turning away, to stop him.
This is different in principle than a greeting with a handshake and a touch on the arm, which I agree can fall within standard business etiquette.
The uselessness of the neighborhood sweeps was brought home to me when I was in summer camp (Lo, these many years ago, way back when). I was one of a group of guys who made life hell for one of our camp-mates (We called the poor fellow “Gladys”) and one day we went too far and brought down the wrath of our camp director, an older Army guy (Pretty sure he put in a full 20 years). He came in and threw around all of the bunks and then split us up into two groups, the “leaders” and the “followers.” He gave us lectures tailored for each group.
Problem: There were just as many leaders in the followers group and vice versa. Natcherly no one said anything and we all just listened respectfully, but it was clear that he had no idea of how to tell a leader from a follower.
Now consider, we’re talking about someone who had been a leader for years and years, someone who had worked with us on a daily basis and he couldn’t get the necessary insight into our group dynamics to distinguish the “insurgents” from the “innocent civilians.”
How in the heck do American soldiers propose to do an effective job in a foreign culture when they don’t even speak the language?
Sunny here in CT. Forsythia out.
Walled in comunities does sound like ghettoization and horribly reminiscent of the Nazis. Scarecrow, do we know who exactly is responsible for that idea?
Rayne @47:
Ok. Yes, they do read history. But it makes no difference! They respond only to what fits into their predetermined view of reality!
And, you may ask, who are “they?” Well, at this point it is an ever-shrinking group, barricaded and self-protective. And thus, the chances of “history” or “us” getting through to them is also ever and increasingly shrinking.
But not the right kind of “shrinking,” unfortunately!
egregious @ 48
I don’t know, egregious…but seriously, we’re talking about Sheryl Crow here, dressed in a cocktail outfit, and Karl Rove, who should by now be entirely and completely comfortable in these situations, in an environment that was likely saturated with Secret Service.
I believe it was less that he was touched than that he was forced to deal with a woman who wouldn’t take his crap. I can see where that would really piss somebody off if they were entirely used to being an unquestioned authority — Bush’s highly-insulated brain.
Having been in situations that were clearly harassment (managers or co-workers indulging in inappropriate closeness and touching), this just doesn’t sound like a similarly threatening situation.
The “idea” of Iraqi’s living in gated communities is apalling. I mean, let’s face it….there are no home owner associations but there are dues. There is no pool or community center for parties. And, no transmitters for individual entry by residents. Call them what they are–camps.
thank you wigwam and scarecrow. that krugman column has got to be one of his best… and that’s saying a lot.
TheraP @ 51
Well that’s just it. Whenever Chimpy & some of the media talk about Iraq, they talk as if their actions can only have one possible outcome, which is the one they desire.
mui @ 50
Well, the basic concept that you can protect yourself with a wall is as old as the first cities, or moats and high walls around a castle. Of course, the concept is to allow the community inside to protect itself from external invaders.
The US used the concept of “strateic hamlets” in VietNam — trying to protect remote villages and force the Viet Cong to go elsewhere for food/shelter.
The concept makes sense when there’s a clear distinction between “them” and “us” but when the concept is imposed by occupying armies on a mix of people, and you can’t tell who the “enemy” is, it starts to break down.
The WaPo article from this a.m. says we’ve been doing this all over Baghdad, but this time, the locals objected. Is this an isolated incident? Did the locals accept the walls in other neighborhoods? I can’t tell from the stories.
Fuck Karl Rove’s discomfort.
This “war” is evil beyond all imagining and so is he.
selise @ 54
Scary, isn’t it?
selise @ 54
My thanks to Marion in Savannah, who promptly rescues Krugman from behind the NYT firewall on a regular basis. TruthOut.org also rescues him, but many hours later.
Sharkbabe @ 57
Good morning sharkbabe. Nice to hear from you again.
Wonder how the right will spin the story: “Democrats are not sensitive to sexual harrassment issues! Oh, and everyone should carry a pistol, just in case.”
from early al-Jazeera reporting on the walls -
al-Jazeera
New thread from Christy Hardin Smith.
Can’t Ignore The Elephant In The Room
cbl @ 61
Thanks for finding this, cbl — I put a link to this story in the main post.
Ah yes, walling off a complete people. Hard to know where to start. Here’s one quote, but I forgot where I picked it up so no link. Sorry.
There’s NO WAY 150,000 troops are going to secure Iraq.
The population of South Vietnam in 1970 was 19M – we had more than 500,000 troops in (a nominally ‘friendly’) country – and we couldn’t hold it.
Iraq has about the same size population, and the same major problem – how to discern the ‘bad’ guys from the ‘good’ guys, when there’s no obvious physical differences.
Iraq’s 2005 GNP was a trivial $16B – we’ve spent over $100B/year since 2003 attempting to control them (and their resources) – with no successful conclusion in sight.
How does this end?
Mission Failed. Treasury Broke. US Humiliated.
Another giant tripped-up by it’s own hubris…
It looks to me like the alternative to walls will be ethnic cleansing and forced relocation of populations.
Scarecrow @ 56
Yes, I glanced at the WaPo article and it left me with a lot questions. I can’t see this as comparable to the old cities and moted castles because those were creations of feudal lords, burghers etc. under different historical circumstances. (I bet historians could make a case that walls around cities also enforced the power structures that were back then too.) It sounds like the army is deciding what they think best/or what is easier for them in the Iraq situation. How much input to regular citizens have? Plus I am always suspicious of genocidal tendancies.
eCAHNomics @ 64 –
tristero at hullabaloo. worth reading the whole thing.
TheraP @ 30
That was the first thing Ms. Redshift and I thought of as well. Even if it “works” as long as our troops are there, it will be disastrous when we leave. Which pretty much describes most of the plans this administration has tried in Iraq — desperately throw together something that you think will show results in the short term, so the big boss can claim we’re winning, with no regard to what it will do in the long term.
Here’s from this morning’s juancole.com, pointing out the political tone-deafness of wall building:
Scarecrow @
36
As I’ve posted in Time’s Up! and Senator Biden forcefully asserted when he asked: Then What, Mr. President…Then What! it’s time. Time now for the citizens of this country to rise up and demand, demand that Congress grab the crazed Bush by the neck and drag him from office.
It’s past time we, as a nation, demonstrated to the world that we are a nation that is ruled by law not the caprice of a dry-drunk, brain-damaged criminal.
It’s not longer enough to talk about ‘bringing the troops home’ or ’stopping the war’ it’s now time for….
Justice to be done.
Impeachment is the only way out of this impasse for our nation.
Contact your congressman and demand that it be done.
selise @ 68
Thanks.
mui @ 67
So we’re back to the Dark Ages?
eCAHNomics @
70
Thanks. I’ve added a link to Juan Cole in the update.
eCAHNomics @ 73
Maybe. And the more I think about it, what have walls really done in history? The great wall of China was breached by the Mongols and the Manchus.
In addition, the poor victims of the ghettos would often be trapped if a fire broke out. But we are to place are confidence in the Army Corp of Engineers, I suppose?
Sheez, such complaining by the occupied about a wall going up around a neighborhood. The US of A is creating a gated community for them! I know people who would kill to live in a gate neighborhood.
I just don’t understand people. You give them everything and they’re still not satisfied. Sheez.
I actually don’t understand the title of post. We all know where it ends, don’t we? And we’ve known for some time. (I thought we lost the war the day the looting began, which was also the day the U.S. pulled down SH’s statue. But I waited a year to declare defeat, just in case I saw any signs that the U.S. had learned.) The longer the U.S. stays, the worse things get. What’s so mysterious about that?
So Scarecrow, what do you want to know? Do you want to know exactly what wooden-headed moves the U.S. military will make? Do you want to know specifics about how W will avoid responsibilty? Specifics on how Ds will try unsuccessfully to end the war? The date & time of the U.S. pullout & whether there’ll be a helicopters-on-the-roof moment? Exactly how bad the slaughter will be after the U.S. leaves?
Those questions are unanserwable but the general pattern is all too obvious.
Well kudos, Scarecrow for writing about this.
Wigwam @ 66
Unfortunately, walls and ethnic cleansing are not mutually exclusive.
The Berlin Wall and the Great Wall of China never worked – is this a covert and cheap policy to imprison all citizenry who obviously support insurgents fighting against colonial occupation?
ccmask @ 53
Yes didn’t the author of Emerald City suggest that the Engineer corps would be better employed working on a way to restore electricity to Baghdad?
ps – its bringing prisons to people rather than people to prisons
eCahnomics — the phrase belongs to Petraeus, not me. I’m just repeating it (and emphasizing its relevance), trying to get others to follow the logical path you’ve already traveled.
Fascinating how the bush folks do war.
Send the troops first and ask for money later (= the surge).
Build the wall first and get people to sign off on it later (= the 12 foot high secret).
Remember when this surge was billed as the US and Iraq doing this totally together? Remember how they were supposed to have a united chain of command, so that all decisions were made jointly?
Remember when we were a republic? And professed a belief in democratic principles? Remember when we had a constitution?
How quaint….
Morning all,
I have just returned from my ritual review of today’s tragic metrics. It’s something I do to retain a grasp on the reality of what’s happening to us (the human race).
* April 2007 still on track to be one of our deadliest months in Iraq since the war began. (in or near the top ten)
* Newsweek marks milestone: 25,000 U.S. Dead and wounded. (via Iraq Casualties -dot- Org)
* Bombings continue to rock Baghdad (20, 30, 40 dead as the clock ticks)
* Iraqi dead & wounded: who’s counting?
* U.S. Battlefield Wounded-to-Dead ratio: approx 16:1 (Vietnam was less than 3:1) The horribly BAD statistic being made to look good.
* 150,000 U.S. troops represents 1/20th of 1% of the U.S. population (i.e. of course we all need & want to support our troops, but we MUST consider the metrics) This metric could safely be compared to the passengers of the Titanic supporting its’ navigator’s charted course, and it’s captain’s order to ’steam on!’.
We all gotta look at the metrics, see them for what they are, and once and for all disabuse ourselves of these platitudes “win”, “support” and “stay the course”.
Scarecrow @ 83
Petraeus is an idiot. And the fact that he’s the hero of the military says buckets.
So let’s deconstruct Petraeus. W had to pass over 3 or 4 generals to find one who would do his bidding. Petraeus’s (laughingly-referred-to-as) success in Tal Afar has been trashed by subsequent events. His (laughingly-referred-to-as) COIN manual recommends the ink spot theory, which describes more what insurgents do, rather than what COINs should do.
It doesn’t end. Why would anyone think that it will?
Gunga Djinn @ 85
Bush would have a different view if he had members of his family at risk in Iraq. The war is not that real to him now.
You know I have been struck be something and how close this is to a film out of the 80’s called ” Red Dawn” where America is occupied by foreign forces. Maybe its time someone took a look at it again, it might be a way of getting across the picture of what its like from the other side of this conflict in a way Americans can understand. Just a thought.
The most damning part of the Warriors show was the fact that the Iraqi soldiers were laughing amongst themselves that their local religious leader had more of a weapons cache than the soldiers were finding….yet NONE spoke up about it. Our troops don’t understand what the Iraqi troops are saying and I dare say this little bit of (imbedded?) video would never have seen the light of day had any interpreters noticed it before release.
Enjo.
Torturing and abusing people rarely if ever produce factual information. Rumsfeld used to tell us they had gleaned valuable information, but he never substantiated his claims with evidence. Likewise it is highly suspect that their “alternative” interrogation methods are actually producing weapon caches or valuable information and/or persons? Any evidence? Furthermore information gathered under those conditions historically is not shown to be reliable.
The troops offer money for information. Often an individual having an issue with a neighbour or some other person can kill two birds with one stone: use the opportunity to extract revenge and collect money simultaneously.
“The first casualty of war is the truth.” The White House’s penchant for fabricating facts and inundating the public with happy language, truth seems nonexistent today. The military, too. Either they choose not to be candid or really believe the crap they tell us. Nevertheless it is disingenious and disturbing.
The military went so far as to cover the truth about Tillman’s death and Jessica Lynch’s (?) rescue. If they could not even be forthcoming about those two incidents requires asking what else?
Why would anyone believe they are being forthcoming now?
Hence anything they tell us becomes automatically suspect.
More disturbing, at least for myself, is that anyone would think torture and abuse are acceptable! What has America become?
Last but not least, FYI: someone asked who counts Iraqi fatalities?
A year ago July 2006 according to the Lancet Report 655,000 – 750,000 Iraqis had been killed. Their report was published in the respected British Journal of Medicine. Inasmuch as the Lancet was attacked as not credible, by the US, that is the company relied upon to determine the number of lives lost during natural disasters and wars, has been for years. Their numbers are not questioned. Just recently — i forget where — the Lancet was accredited as certifiable, credible and highly respected.
Wherefore the aforementioned numbers, being almost a year ago, makes plausible another 200,000 or more Iraqi lives have been claimed since. A guesstimate suggesting 1 million plus Iraqis may have been killed to date is not in the range of ridiculousness.