Here's a few hints:
– It happened at 9:02 am local time.
– It killed 168 people.
– It happened in the Murrah Federal Building in a city in the Great Plains.
– Most of the victims were Federal employees and their children.
– The building was targeted by conservative white-supremacist anti-government types who have ideological connections to groups and individuals that form the underpinnings of many extant right-wing movements.
– George W. Bush will very likely not say a word about it today.
Figured it out yet?
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FDL!!!!
second zed today!!!
It sounds like Keith is using the story Glenn told about the trail of missing evidence.
Oklahoma City Bombing.
Can’t believe it’s been twelve years. That day is seared into my memory.
I believe Tim McVeigh was also a Christian. So he is on the other side. RIP.
George W. Bush will very likely not say a word about it today.
Great point, Phoenix Woman.
Naturally, Clinton handled it better then Bush handled 9/11, Katrina and everything else this admin has bungled.
GWB wouldn’t think of saying a word about it. Not his “brand” of terrorism. Just like the bombings of women’s clinics aren’t any form of terrorism to this administration.
Feh.
We here, recall that day, everyday. Women and children in day care, among many other Oklahomans killed for no reason. We think about it a lot. We just don’t talk about it much.
No remorse ever from Tim McVeigh.
And no remorse from Eric Rudolph.
Fortunately, angry white males are never referred to as “terrorists.”
LoudounLib @ 4
Mine, too.
new coke?
Slothrop @ 10
…Yet.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 9
((((OK Kiddo))))
Phule @ 13
From your keyboard to Keith Olbermann’s modem!
And one of “our own”, i.e. Timothy McVeigh, killed far more children than the Saudis on 9/11.
Fortunately, angry white males are never referred to as “terrorists.”
…Yet.
But thanks for mentioning it.
Phule @ 7
Exactly.
Nor will he say anything about David Koresh and his troubled sect, the Branch Davidians, or the deaths of children and women in the Davidians’ encampment 14 years ago today.
Yet another disturbed Christian who mixed it up with the law at the ultimate expense of women and children.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 18
I will never forget it, OK Kiddo. Ever.
Slothrop @ 10
I’ll call them terrorist. And Rust LimpBalls and Ann Coulter and all the reich-wingers terrorist sympathisers
Rayne @ 20
!
Then Bill Clinton suspended habeus corpus and swept up thousands of white Christians and held them in extra-judicial limbo for years and used this incident to fan the flames of irrational fear and anger to beat the opposing party over the head for electoral gain?
-GSD
Syria was behind it. No, Iran. No, Iraq. Oh, I give up. All I know is it couldn’t be Christians.
BTW, what did 41 say on the ocassion?
Rayne @ 20
Yup. I really find it amazing how many right-wingers, to this day, defend Koresh/Howell even though it’s been shown beyond all doubt that a) he set the fires and b) the whole siege started when he and his grew murdered the law enforcement personnel who had come to investigate charges of child abuse (namely Howell’s habit of taking pre-pubescent “wives”).
GSD @ 24
Fixed.
Phule @ 13
Unless they’re liberating lab animals.
GSD @ 24
Don’t forget his using this as a pretext to invade Canada, because even though the terrorists came from Michigan, the real problem was those damn Canadiofascists!
Glenn being mentioned on KO. Yes, ties the dog ate my homework story . . . over and over and over again.
BTW Phoenix Woman, you made Altercation today…
Man, I got so tired of Bill Clinton running around for five years babbling, “April 19 changed everything,” and accusing every critic of engaging in “pre-April 19th thinking.” It was 4-19 this and 4-19 that.
1,491 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Pheonix Woman and the Firepup Patriots:
Remember Oklahoma City…the real terrorists are in the White House!!
KEEP THE FAITH, ALL THEY GOT LEFT IS THE SMOKE AND MIRRORS!!
Rayne @
20
Errr, I am the only one who thinks this describes Bush too?
12 years ago today, is not why I read FDL. It seems that there have been no posts, but a few comment-ers asking for, regarding Gonzo.
I’m not sure why, but…
Puesta del sol es mas tranquilo…
Twelve years ago today is boring…
Good night! Una cerveza y puesta del sol es mejor. No?
And as of 8:19 PM Eastern Time, Bush still hasn’t said diddly about what happened twelve years ago today. Freaking Rudy Giuliani would, but Bush? Nah.
dakine01 @ 31
For real? Got link?
Petrocelli @ 33
No.
This has been another edition of simple answers to simple questions.
I was working on a dig in rural Mexico and was totally unaware of Oklahoma City for weeks.
Phoenix Woman @ 26
We’ve stepped into Bizarro World, haven’t we? A U.S. Attorney General who actually condoned an investigation of the president, blamed for the conflagration at Waco in spite of the murder of law enforcement persons by the Davidians…a fundamentalist extremist who kept women and children as chattel, like an American Taliban…the date of the final assault becomes fixed more permanently in history by another twisted extremist.
And they revile the USAG and mourn Koresh. They carefully mute comment about McVeigh.
Just sick.
I visited the site about 7 years ago when I was in OK City for a conference and they were working on the memorial but it had a ways to go. An emotionally sad experience.
Phoenix Woman @
29
Take off, eh !
Puesto @ 35
There were no posts about Gonzo today? I must have been dreaming.
Yay, let us celebrate the death.
(my edge cuts both ways and I often confuse. sorry)
“Shown beyond all doubt?” I don’t think so.
Phoenix Woman @
37
http://mediamatters.org/altercation/
Scroll down into the “Correspondents Corner”
I was thinking about this today while I was listening to Alberto Gonzalez on the hot seat. I was recalling various lapses of legal judgment of Attorneys General, like Bobby Kennedy (bugged MLK), John Mitchell, Ed Meese and Janet Reno. Her Justice Department was in charge of the Waco mess.
McVeigh, a Gulf War I veteran, claimed his bombing was a retaliation for Waco. And I didn’t even realize today was the anniversary.
If anyone wants to do some interesting reading to get into the mind of McVeigh, I recommend the Turner Diaries, by Andrew McDonald. McVeigh said it was his favorite book. Heavy on racism and anti-Semitism and violence, it promulgates the idea of a semi-leaderless resistance cells like Al Qaeda.
Clinton’s administration responded to the bombing with the Omnibus Counterterrorism Act of 1995, in some ways a precursor to the Patriot Act. For all the conspiracy theories about 9-11, there were plenty of theories about OK City.
The cycle of violence perpetuated by the Clinton presidency was not one of its high points. It just makes me sad all around.
Petrocelli @ 34
He’s not really a Christian. He only plays on on TV.
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 43
After people got off work, and had a chance to digest the various reportage, relaxing at home…
No, there weren’t ;-} Peace, and good night.
Phoenix Woman:
I mentioned your previous post about this over at my place a day or so ago.
Thanks for reminding us of this horrible event, and the political crap that went along with it, and continues today.
[/blogwhoring]
GSD @ 24
Then Bill Clinton suspended habeus corpus and swept up thousands of white Christians and held them in extra-judicial limbo for years and used this incident to fan the flames of irrational fear and anger to beat the opposing party over the head for electoral gain?
-GSD
Don’t forget his using this as a pretext to invade Canada, because even though the terrorists came from Michigan, the real problem was those damn Canadiofascists!
I wish weren’t still bogged down in that endless bloody occupation of Canada. Damn Bill Clinton and his damnable war-mongering insatiable imperialist p*nis! They should have impeached him.
cleter @ 32
Yeah, and how he accused anyone who disagreed with his plan to invade Canada of “supporting the terraists”.
Well, I’ve got to say it. Bush 1, freedom 0
They let Gonzo escape today.
eCAHNomics @ 25
were all those photos and info on me destroyed?
Must. Bite. Tongue.
John Dean coming up on KO
Rayne @ 55
oh come on let it rip Rayne….I dare you.
lolo
OT but Ted Casablanca (E! network gossip column) reported today that Stepford Laura is living at the Hay-Adams hotel in DC cuz the Chimpenfuhrer is off the wagon.
(Hey, we can’t be serious ALL the time).
sharing a story then going to bed-
rented a car to go to toronto–12 years ago……..license plate was oklahoma…..you wouldn’t believe all of the comments and looks i got all the way to ontario from ohio…….was freaky……drove it ‘home’ for me……..wide array of conversation, all of it human.
nite all
lolo @ 57
Speaking as a fellow Ohioan (I think), I double dawg dare Rayne!
itwasntme @
53
Maybe, but Specter peeled him like a grape. How about “Dead Man Walking?”
dakine01 @ 58
Pstt! Guess who just hit a three run homerun?
Amazing
I apologize for going OT but this was interesting.
Check out mediabistro.com/tvnewser/
Ratings for Wed night show KO toppin BOR. *g*
Doug Keenan @ 45
Yes, it was. At least, beyond all reasonable, non-crackpot doubt. Go check out Rick Ross’ site, where he systematically destroys all the crackpot Koresh/Howell apologists.
Bil @ 60
Coburn didn’t exactly give him a wet sloppy kiss either (speaking of OK).
You know, I didn’t really need the image of Colburn giving a big sloppy kiss to Gonzo.
Eww.
My eyes! It burns!
Cozumel @
62
Who? (Not watching the Reds until after KO.)
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 60
not unless she wants to, it’s ok Rayne.
Rayne @ 55
Rayne can erase it…Emote?
cleter @ 66
Coburn slapped Gonzo down big time today.
Rayne @ 55
You could do that. Or you could exclaim; Oh poor me -why does the world not anticipate and immediately meet all of my needs, wants and desires? Life is cruel! Wah.
lolo — remember the “person of interest” you mentioned in Gabbly? Sometimes it’s best just to bite one’s tongue rather than start a conflagration that rivals the flames of Waco.
I taste blood, though. Should rinse my mouth with a little Cuervo…
edit: I opted for the “mouthwash” technique. Mmm-mmm. But skip the lemon and the salt…
dakine01 @ 70
he told him to resign
itwasntme @
53
Did you read Christy’s blogs “TEXAS TOAST” and the comments? The majority of us, if not all, felt he got roasted and is in fact Dead Man Walking.
On KO John Dean said Whitehouse’s chart was damning. I didn’t see it, but I sure would like to.
I’d agree that Clinton handled the Murrah bombing better than Clinton, but if I can dare to put forth the opinion here, that’s not saying much. His reaction to it was, for me, an absolute low point in my esteem for him. Like Bush, he used it as an opportunity to aggregate more power to the police organs of the executive branch. I recall at the time the critique was that most of the powers he was seeking would have had no effect on the government’s ability to prevent McVeigh doing what he did, had those powers already been in effect (sound familiar?) At the time I found his response, in terms of making inroads against civil liberties, infuriating and sickening. That more recent examples have shown him to be a veritable piker in this regard doesn’t make me want to put him on any kind of pedestal for his own response.
Rayne @ 72
I know but it is quite obvious. The troll will show its true colors. I won’t have to say a word.
lolo @ 73 says:
And he did it so eloquently. When Gonzo has lost a full wing-nutter like Coburn, you KNOW he has to be toast and just don’t know it for himself.
dakine01 @ 67
The rookie, Hamiltion
LS @ 75
It was good enough for Leahy to call it extraordinary and give up some of his time to Whitehouse for continued questions. Leahy said he’d never seen anything like it.
Ken @ 47 (my quote button’s not working) –
The Waco standoff started when George HW Bush was still president. It started when Vernon “David Koresh” Howell gunned down some law enforcement personnel when they and a social worker came to investigate the claims (later verified) that Koresh and his associates were taking pre-teen girls for their bedmates.
Janet Reno had only been AG a few days when William Sessions (the Bush holdover head of the FBI) and Larry Potts (the Bush holdover head of the BATF) made the decision to end the siege. Koresh/Howell’s response was to set fire to the compound — a response he’d planned. There are tape recordings of him ordering the fires to be set.
“Blaming” Clinton or Janet Reno for Waco makes about as much sense as blaming them for Ruby Ridge, which happened in September 1992. (But that didn’t stop Rush Limbaugh for doing so.)
LS (75) — the numbers alone were damning; I couldn’t see the chart in my puny little window of CSPAN-3…but Whitehouse compares Clinton Admin’s control of dialogue between White House and USDOJ, consisting of as little as 3 people, to the wide-open free-for-all between the White House and USDOJ under BushII. If memory serves, the number of folks communicating between the two functions is (417).
In my limited experience with auditing, that’s a freaking nightmare for controls purposes — and it explains perfectly why they had to, um, accidentally lose 5 million emails. The relationship between the White House and the USDOJ was a damned sieve, and you can bet the entire intelligence community outside the U.S. knew it.
Cozumel,
I thnk that’s his fifth in about 25 at bats or close to it. Mah Reds got themselves a keeper with that boy. :})
dakine01 @ 78
And he did it so eloquently. When Gonzo has lost a full wing-nutter like Coburn, you KNOW he has to be toast and just don’t know it for himself.
It was so funny he wanted to bolt out of there.
Things you never hear about OKC:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMXMo3Z0qms
*Lone nuts don’t fit.
Are we supposed to imagine that George Bush didn’t say anything about the Oklahoma City bombing that happened 12 years ago because he goes along with the anti-government, white supremist crap?
More likely because it’s been a damn busy week on all fronts.
LS @
75
Here it is, in Dahlia Lithwick’s column at Slate.
dakine01 @ 83
For $380,000! LOL I’m not a Red’s fan but I’ve been following his comeback via Yahoo’s box scores when they play
dakine01 @ 80
I was so frustrated today, because I lost all internet service at about 2:00..I actually had to go out and live my life for a few hours ;}.
The hearing is on again now, and I’m really looking forward to seeing that part!
Where’s spiderpaws? She could explain the April 19 astrological situation. Always expect an explosion of some sort, but can’t remember the why part.
Rayne @ 82
IIRC, it was Clinton 4 DoJ and 4 WH were the only allowed contacts. VS 417 WH to 31 DoJ in BushCo.
LS @ 89
It will be late as it was in the after lunch and I think after afternoon break, so near the end.
I’m listening to Abu and the Senators on Cspan radio, it’s just great how he gets going with the stammering and stuttering and they just shut him down and say,”That’s not what I want to know, this is the question”, or words to that effect. The senators mostly sound very sad when, after they have asked their questions and they pause, they recap to Abu why they feel he is incompetent and needs to resign. Again and again, he begs like a twelve year old, saying “but, but, but I can do better!!!” I think some of these senators really thought he might rise to the occasion somehow.
Cozumel @
88
Sign him long term right now. He’s the real deal.
dakine01 @ 91
huh? {swimming}
Rayne 82, Thanks for the heads up. BTW, I figured out that if I doubleclick on the little picture on C-SPAN 3, it becomes full screen (at least on my computer). (Techi’s are now rolling eyes as I say that ;} )
LS @ 96
Did you not see my comment at 87?
Dover Bitch @ 97
i watched the view(go rosie – u rock} and she remembered the murrah massacre – and it brought it all back to me…. and also the person of interest supposedly a “olive or brown-skinned man” – boy were they wrong……..
zennurse @ 93
The Republic senators (excluding hatch) were mostly showing the disappointment. The former prosecutors in the Dems were setting him up to slap him back down. Hatch was just giving him strokes and questions from the cramming sessions.
LS @ 98
I’m sure Gonzales thinks he can still be an effective leader. After all, if he can keep his job after this clusterfuck, how could anybody in DOJ doubt that he’s invincible?
nancy @ 90
Let’s think about her and maybe she will pop up at latenight. Use our psychic powers.
(((((Spiderpaws)))))))
Dover Bitch @ 87
Thanks, DB, great. Listening to Whitehouse’s first time around, talking very objectively about the structure and value of DOJ, making Abu agree with him and then bringing it all around to bite him on the ass.
Gonzo was about to cry near the end.
Mental Image Not Safe for Anyone.
Phoenix Woman @ 81: “Janet Reno had only been AG a few days when William Sessions (the Bush holdover head of the FBI) and Larry Potts (the Bush holdover head of the BATF) made the decision to end the siege.”
That may be. But as I recall (and sometimes my recollection rivals AG’s!), Janet Reno, stand-up gal, always took responsibility for that. What a concept.
DrBB @ 76: Got proof? And by proof, I mean something other than recycled right-wing talking points?
Here’s David Neiwert. As he shows, even though the FBI did screw up in his opinion, they didn’t set the fires:
Neiwert goes on to mention the FBI’s lessons learned from Waco (and under a different head, the Bush holdover Sessions having been replaced by Louis Freeh not long after Waco) — namely, that negotiation is better than force — as why the 1996 Montana Freedmen standoff was resolved without loss of life.
MelodyMaker @ 95
Uh, I’m not sure what you’re asking, but I was describing verbally the Sen Whitehouse chart he used to help slap down Gonzo. DoverBitch linked to it in Dahlia Lithwick’s column in Slate.
Sen Whitehouse did this chart that showed the number of staff in Clinton WH authorized to directly contact his DoJ and the number of DoJ staff who could take calls from the WH.
BushCo has 417 WH staff calling 31 different DoJ staff. No control over the process at all. Leading to the lost e-mails.
Unless that’s not what you were wondering in which case I’m an idiot. Again. :})
dakine01 @ 70
Coburn slapped Gonzo down big time today.
It was more like he threw him under the bus. He suggested Abu resign “… so we can put all of this behind us …”
So, Abu resigns, the Dems get their man and we close the (leaking) investigation.
Schumer/Leahy were very shrewd to leave it open, saying that there was no point in going on, hinting that more people will be called for testimony.
Celtic Music @ 107: Yep. She didn’t have to take the blame — it was a Potts/Sessions production all the way — but she did.
And it was her very decency in doing so that made it possible for the right-wingers to smear her and Clinton: “See? SEE?! She ADMITTED SHE WAS RESPONSIBLE!!!!”
thanks for reminding us phoenix woman and other than the view i dont recall if any of the “MSM” talked about it today but it could have been b/c i was watching abu on c-span….
zennurse @ 93
I watch the hearings over and over. There are always nuggets to be found. I had so much fun on gabbly and I hate to admit it I didn’t read the liveblob. I am disabled and take drugs so it’s hard for me to keep up with 2 threads and a live post. Now that I have the hang of gabbly (sp) I will be better next time. Did I say how much fun it is. I had a blast.
lolo
Phule @ 106
Be thankful I was a little more discreet than when it was actually happening.
You know at the end, when Gonzo suggested that the burden of proof for all this was on them, why didn’t anyone say that he’s been withholding evidence?
THINK for yourself:
http://www.whatreallyhappened……OK/ok.html
dakine01 @ 94
The Real Deal? LOL
That’s kinda how I heard about him. TLC had a special on about a month ago called “Trademark Properties Hit’s a Homerun”. It was about moving Shoeless Joe Jackson’s house in Greenville, SC and making it into a museum. The project supervisor was Josh Hamiltion. It was filmed last year when he was still out of baseball. Trademark started the “Flip This House” series on A&E in 2005, had a contract dispute and left after one season. They’re with TLC now and their season premiere is this Saturday night. The name of the series is called…
The Real Deal! ; )
Sadly the Rainbow Farm seige (2001) was not settled without loss of life. They were hippies though, and queer ones at that.
bigdog on CNN
Georgesimian @
115
It was kind of a Nah! Nah! Nah!, you can’t catch me moment.
clinton on cnn now
dakine01 @ 120
Yeah, it was. But the delivery was weak.
Rayne >
Not to mention many (most ?) inside the U.S.
Think Carnivore/Echelon
This could all be to our advantage as time goes on.
“The only barrier to a successfully sustainable planet is ignorance.” – R. Buckminster Fuller
Georgesimian @ 122 says:
Bravado and bluster without conviction. Because he know he’s close to being convicted maybe?
Craig Crawford’s mad as a wet hen!
Upset at the “Blog-o-sphere” .. so nasty to the MSM…
MEANIES!
He’s looking at YOU, PW… and Jane…
:)
Jacqrat @
125
Craig Crawford is an a**. He was one of the biggest apologists for Imus which does not enhance his credibilty on anything.
Jacqrat @ 125
He blew a gasket over Imus and has been circling the drain since
Puesto @ 35
Only eight or ten threads with about 300 posts per. You must scroll back, mah brutha.
El mucho grande de Gonzo la boompa!
OT but Jeebuz! The gold glove shortstop just boots routine grounder to load the bases.
Cozumel @ 127
A girl’s gotta make a buck. His income stream is shrinking…
dakine01 @ 129
where!!! I love that gold-glove wearin’ hot corner dude.
NEVERMIND. …another team. I misread shortstop .saw third base.
Jacqrat @ 125
Idiot wrote the book Kill the Messenger. About the abuses done to the MSM. Pots and kettles come to mind.
Jacqrat @ 131
Houston Fox Sports s/w with Reds and Astros. SS was Alex Gonzalez for the Reds, last year with Red Sox. Maybe it’s a jinx on people named Gonzalez today?
Some worth while petitions here to sign.
http://www.peopleoverprofits.o…..D/Home.htm
i worked at hud, in okc, but left in 1977 just prior to the move to the murrah building. i visited friends there a couple of times. the building gave me the creeps. these massive concrete columns created huge drafty up-gusts of air that made it difficult to open and close doors.
four people i knew died. four people i knew. not all of them well, but people whose names and faces i remember.
i can’t go back to oklahoma city.
craig speaks out of both sides of his mouth – trying to stay in somebody’s good graces i no longer can listen to him
I do indeed know what happened 12 years ago. I’m an Okie and proud of it. The memorial in OKC is stunning. I encourage anyone who can to visit. It is a staggerng statement as to what can happen in one moment because of hatred. Go see the memorial and look at the small glass chairs that commemorate the children. Why do we hate US so much?
flipping between mets and larrah king-and waiting for hearings to replay on c-span as i missed the opening session
Rayne @ 20
You know what they say about the official story: WACO: Rules of Engagement
juslin @ 138
If you wanna watch online whenever: http://www.c-span.org/
Under ‘RECENT PROGRAMS’ *RealPlayer req.
lou costello @ 140
thanks ;o)
Do you know what happened 232 years ago today? A shot was “heard round the world”… We can choose what to memorialize and I prefer to remember those who fought tyrrany rather than those who terrorize. I loved the irony of watching our Senators reminding our Attorney General that tyrrany will not be tolerated on this particular date.
Slothrop @ 10
Ken Krayeske @ 47
I wonder if McVeigh felt abt Waco like many now feel abt the 911 non-investigation?
McVeigh’s own words.
Timothy McVeigh’s Letter to Rita Cosby April 27 2001
I explain herein why I bombed the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. I explain this not for publicity, nor seeking to win an argument of right or wrong. I explain so that the record is clear as to my thinking and motivations in bombing a government installation.
I chose to bomb a federal building because such an action served more purposes than other options. Foremost, the bombing was a retaliatory strike; a counter attack, for the cumulative raids (and subsequent violence and damage) that federal agents had participated in over the preceding years (including, but not limited to, Waco.) From the formation of such units as the FBI’s “Hostage Rescue” and other assault teams amongst federal agencies during the ’80’s; culminating in the Waco incident, federal actions grew increasingly militaristic and violent, to the point where at Waco, our government – like the Chinese – was deploying tanks against its own citizens.
Knowledge of these multiple and ever-more aggressive raids across the country constituted an identifiable pattern of conduct within and by the federal government and amongst its various agencies. (see enclosed) For all intents and purposes, federal agents had become “soldiers” (using military training, tactics, techniques, equipment, language, dress, organization, and mindset) and they were escalating their behavior. Therefore, this bombing was also meant as a pre-emptive (or pro-active) strike against these forces and their command and control centers within the federal building. When an aggressor force continually launches attacks from a particular base of operation, it is sound military strategy to take the fight to the enemy.
Additionally, borrowing a page from U.S. foreign policy, I decided to send a message to a government that was becoming increasingly hostile, by bombing a government building and the government employees within that building who represent that government. Bombing the Murrah Federal Building was morally and strategically equivalent to the U.S. hitting a government building in Serbia, Iraq, or other nations. (see enclosed) Based on observations of the policies of my own government, I viewed this action as an acceptable option. From this perspective, what occurred in Oklahoma City was no different than what Americans rain on the heads of others all the time, and subsequently, my mindset was and is one of clinical detachment. (The bombing of the Murrah building was not personal , no more than when Air Force, Army, Navy, or Marine personnel bomb or launch cruise missiles against government installations and their personnel.)
I hope that this clarification amply addresses your question.
Sincerely,
Timothy J. McVeigh
USP Terre Haute (IN)
Part II:
Q: What’s the deal with you expressing interest in having your execution televised?
A: First, it has nothing to do with seeking to be on camera – just look at how few on-camera interviews I have done. Rather, it is to make a point: In the U.S. we show, on television, re-enactments of real executions; mock-fictional executions (in movies); and real executions from foreign countries – yet we are ashamed to show our own justice system in action. It is ironic that we show foreign executions, but are afraid to show identical domestic laws being carried out.
Q: What were some other options considered besides bombing? Who would you have targeted?
A: I waited two years from “Waco” for non-violent “checks and balances” built into our system to correct the abuse of power we were seeing in federal actions against citizens. The Executive; Legislative; and Judicial branches not only concluded that the government did nothing wrong (leaving the door open for “Waco” to happen again), they actually gave awards and bonus pay to those agents involved, and conversely, jailed the survivors of the Waco inferno after the jury wanted them set free.
Other “checks and balances” likewise proved futile: media awareness and outcry (the major media failed in its role as overseer of government ally); protest marches; letter campaigns; even small-budget video production; etc. – all failed to correct the abuse
When violent action thus became an option, I considered, among other things, a campaign of individual assassination, with “eligible” targets to include: Federal Judge Walter Smith (Waco trial); Lon Horiuchi (FBI sniper at Ruby Ridge); and Janet Reno (making her accept “full responsibility” in deed, not just word).
Q: Further describe motivations for bombing, and why you chose the bombing over other options.
A: See enclosed documents (he’s referring to letter below)
Q. Summate feelings and lessons learned re: experience with legal system, and particularly, SJ.
A. Stephen Jones was appointed (in his own mind), not as a defense attorney, but as an “independent prosecutor” representing Oklahoma state (just prior to “representing” me, he worked as an advisor to the chief law enforcement officer for the state of OK – Governor Frank Keating.) and its interests; and secondary, looking out for his own interests (namely fame and fortune).
Having this experience under my belt, I would recommend that a defendant never trust his/her lawyer, for you can neither count on the attorney-client privilege, nor the ethical integrity of a given attorney.
(I have also learned what “cronyism” means, in actual effect.)
Q: Regarding to comments by AG; Keating
A: Most of the insults are meritless and quite often absurd, so I don’t pay them much attention. Hitler? Absurd. (Geraldo Rivera uses this same analogy, so Keating and Ashcroft are in good company!) Coward? This label would make Orwell proud — it is double think at its finest. Collateral Damage? As an American news junkie; a military man; and a Gulf War veteran, where do they think I learned that? (It sure as hell wasn’t Osama Bin Laden!)
For all else, I would refer you to my enclosed paper “Hypocrisy”, and to Ramzi Yousef’s statement to the court just prior to his sentencing. I filter all labels and insults thusly.
Q: Lessons?
A: Many foreign nations and peoples hate Americans for the very reasons most Americans loathe me. Think about that.
There are most likely many lessons in my story. Americans have the choice to try to learn from me (which is why I cooperated with the authors of American Terrorist), or they can choose to remain ignorant, and suffer the consequences.
http://independence.net/okc/mcveighletterfox.htm
An Essay by Timothy McVeigh
As you read the essay, understand why I have always felt that McVeigh lit the fuse, but is not guilty of a crime. At this past weekends Jubilation 98, I met James Nichols and Bob Papovich {Freedom’s End}. While speaking with Bob, and he, having glanced at my writings on the subject Oklahoma City Bombing, wondered why I could say that McVeigh lit the fuse, but was NOT GUILTY. Quite simply, the answer lies in each of our respective states of mind with regard to our relationship with the US government. McVeigh had determined that he was at war with the US government. I can empathizes with his feelings, for I judge my circumstance to be the same. It is only those who have not come to the point of that recognition that have difficulty in understanding this perspective. — opf
Media bypass can be found on the Internet at: http://www.4bypass.com
Media Bypass Editor’s note: Timothy McVeigh, sentenced to death for his role in the April 19, 1995 bombing in Oklahoma City, penned the following essay, dated “March 1998,” from his cell in the administrative maximum section of the federal prison in Florence, Colo. In a preface, McVeigh wrote “I have chosen Media Bypass as a possible forum for this piece because, frankly, I realize that it is quite provocative — and I rather doubt that any mainstream media would touch it. [Note that although the enclosed is very provocative, it was written to provoke thought — and was not written with malevolent intent.]”
McVeigh apologized for the essay being handwritten, but noted his “current (unique) environment does not provide access to a typewriter, a word processor or a copier. (hell, I’m lucky they let me have a pen!), so I hope you understand why this is being submitted handwritten — and I hope you can overcome this shortcoming.”
McVeigh, whose interview with Media Bypass [February 1996] was picked up and dissected by the New York Times and major media outlets across the nation, also expressed concerns that reporting subsequent to this essay might be “printed out of context… but at least the original can be accurate.”
A decorated U.S. Army veteran of the Persian Gulf War, McVeigh hereby offers his contribution to the debate over U.S. policy toward Iraq, a policy that McVeigh says is marked by a “deep hypocrisy.”
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
An Essay on Hypocrisy
By Timothy McVeigh
The administration has said that Iraq has no right to stockpile chemical or biological weapons (”weapons of mass destruction”) — mainly because they have used them in the past.
Well, if that’s the standard by which these matters are decided, then the U.S. is the nation that set the precedent. The U.S. has stockpiled these same weapons (and more) for over 40 years. The U.S. claims that this was done for deterrent purposes during the “Cold War” with the Soviet Union. Why, then is it invalid for Iraq to claim the same reason (deterrence) — with respect to Iraq’s (real) war with, and the continued threat of, its neighbor Iran?
The administration claims that Iraq has used these weapons in the past. We’ve all seen the pictures that show a Kurdish woman and child frozen in death from the use of chemical weapons. But, have you ever seen these pictures juxtaposed next to pictures from Hiroshima or Nagasaki?
I suggest that one study the histories of World War I, World War II and other “regional conflicts” that the U.S. has been involved in to familiarize themselves with the use of “weapons of mass destruction.”
Remember Dresden? How about Hanoi? Tripoli? Baghdad? What about the big ones — Hiroshima and Nagasaki? (At these two locations, the U.S. killed at least 150,000 non-combatants — mostly women and children — in the blink of an eye. Thousands more took hours, days, weeks, or months to die.)
If Saddam is such a demon, and people are calling for war crimes charges and trials against him and his nation, why do we not hear the same cry for blood directed at those responsible for even greater amounts of “mass destruction” — like those responsible and involved in dropping bombs on the cities mentioned above?
The truth is, the U.S. has set the standard when it comes to the stockpiling and use of weapons of mass destruction.
Hypocrisy when it comes to death of children? In Oklahoma City, it was family convenience that explained the presence of a day-care center placed between street level and the law enforcement agencies which occupied the upper floors of the building. Yet when discussion shifts to Iraq, any day-care center in a government building instantly becomes “a shield.” Think about that.
(Actually, there is a difference here. The administration has admitted to knowledge of the presence of children in or near Iraqi government buildings, yet they still proceed with their plans to bomb — saying that they cannot be held responsible if children die. There is no such proof, however, that knowledge of the presence of children existed in relation to the Oklahoma City bombing.)
When considering morality and mens rea [criminal intent] in light of these facts, I ask: Who are the true barbarians?
Yet another example of this nation’s blatant hypocrisy is revealed by the polls which suggest that this nation is greatly in favor of bombing Iraq.
In this instance, the people of the nation approve of bombing government employees because they are “guilty by association” — they are Iraqi government employees. In regard to the bombing in Oklahoma City, however, such logic is condemned.
What motivates these seemingly contradictory positions? Do people think that government workers in Iraq are any less human than those in Oklahoma City? Do they think that Iraqis don’t have families who will grieve and mourn the loss of their loved ones? In this context, do people come to believe that the killing of foreigners is somehow different than the killing of Americans?
I recently read of an arrest in New York City where possession of a mere pipe bomb was charged as possession of a “weapon of mass destruction.” If a two pound pipe bomb is a “weapon of mass destruction,” then what do people think that a 2,000-pound steel-encased bomb is?
I find it ironic, to say the least, that one of the aircraft that could be used to drop such a bomb on Iraq is dubbed “The Spirit of Oklahoma.”
When a U.S. plane or cruise missile is used to bring destruction to a foreign people, this nation rewards the bombers with applause and praise. What a convenient way to absolve these killers of any responsibility for the destruction they leave in their wake.
Unfortunately, the morality of killing is not so superficial. The truth is, the use of a truck, a plane, or a missile for the delivery of a weapon of mass destruction does not alter the nature of the act itself.
These are weapons of mass destruction — and the method of delivery matters little to those on the receiving end of such weapons.
Whether you wish to admit it or not, when you approve, morally, of the bombing of foreign targets by the U.S. military, you are approving of acts morally equivalent to the bombing in Oklahoma City. The only difference is that this nation is not going to see any foreign casualties appear on the cover of Newsweek magazine.
It seems ironic and hypocritical that an act viciously condemned in Oklahoma City is now a “justified” response to a problem in a foreign land. Then again, the history of United States policy over the last century, when examined fully, tends to exemplify hypocrisy.
When considering the use of weapons of mass destruction against Iraq as a means to an end, it would be wise to reflect on the words of the late U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis. His words are as true in the context of Olmstead as they are when they stand alone: “Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example.”
Sincerely
Timothy J. McVeigh
Note: For a better understanding of the significance of the Olmstead cite, see What did Timothy McVeigh really say?
You might also be interested in an article I wrote back May 1995 which deals with the same subject matter. Terrorism? or, An Act of War?
http://www.outpost-of-freedom……caug98.htm
What did Timothy McVeigh really say?
by
Gary Hunt, Outpost of Freedom
“If the Court please, I wish to use the words of Justice Brandeis dissenting in Olmstead to speak for me. He wrote, ‘Our Government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example.’
“That’s all I have.
Timothy McVeigh, August 14, 1997 � just prior to being officially sentenced to death
For weeks, now, I had been conjecturing, along with nearly everyone else in the country, what words would come forth on Timothy McVeigh’s day of sentencing. He had declared that he would make a statement � his first since he was accused of bombing the Murrah federal building in Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995 � and the word had spread, as had the anticipation. Many had expected a confession, remorse or denial of complicity. Very few, if any, expected so much acumen to come from McVeigh and just 47 words.
To fully understand the depth of McVeigh’s statement, it might be best to understand exactly what the Olmstead case was about. “Olmstead was the leading conspirator and the general manager of [a] business” (Olmstead v. United States, 277 US 438) which employed “not less than 50 persons,” including executives, salesmen, deliverymen, dispatchers and an attorney. The business was “unlawfully possessing, transporting and importing intoxicating liquors,..” The crime, then, was a violation of the statutes enacted under authority of the 18th Amendment to the Constitution (Prohibition) which was ratified in 1919.
The general argument of the court was that although postal mail, once sealed, was prohibited from intrusion by government officers seeking evidence, a telephone line was not, and, although Washington state law made it a misdemeanor to tap a phone, the evidence obtained thereby was admissible. The court, in its opinion, also made clear that the government need not be ethical in its acquiring of evidence.
Brandeis, in his dissenting opinion, stated that “Tapping of one man’s telephone line involves the tapping of the telephone line of every other person whom he may call, or who may call him.” He continued, [a]s a means of espionage, writs of assistance and general warrants are but puny instruments of tyranny and oppression when compared with wire tapping.”
Although the comparison of any evidence gathering in the McVeigh case is inconsequential to the whole, the seizure of the papers in McVeigh’s car, his home, the homes of his friends and relatives, and the intimidation of his sister and the Fortiers falls well within the domain of what was once prohibited under the Constitution � but which has become an everyday occurrence under the federal government’s agenda.
I’m not so sure that this was all that Timothy McVeigh had to say when he uttered those few words � much to the chagrin of many. The implications of wrongdoing by government, and usurpation of authority not granted by the Constitution through the process of judicial review is much broader in its ramifications than this case, by itself, demonstrates. Brandeis does discuss other aspects of the Constitution which have changed by their nature do to the nature of change in the society, especially from a technological point of view. How, for example, could the Founders have protected the right to communicate (theirs was limited to post and courier) over telephone lines when electricity hadn’t been discovered. How, too, could they address the right to communicate freely on the Internet when just a few years ago the concept of this medium of communication was beyond the comprehension of most people. Brandeis states, with regard to the Supreme Court’s review of actions of the Congress, that “this court has repeatedly sustained the exercise of power by Congress, under various clauses of [the Constitution], over objects of which the fathers could not have dreamed.”
“Protection against such invasion of ‘the sanctities of a man’s home and the privacies of life’ was provided for in the Fourth and Fifth Amendments by specific language.” He continues, “[b]ut ‘time works changes, brings into existence new conditions and purposes.’ Subtler and more far-reaching means of invading privacy have become available to the government. Discovery and invention have made it possible for the government, by means far more effective than stretching upon the rack, to obtain disclosure in court of what was whispered in the closet.”
In appraising the consequences of the government’s overzealous tendencies to secure convictions, Brandeis discussed the actions of the government officials, and the government, itself. “When these unlawful acts [wire tapping in violation of Washington state laws] were committed they were crimes only of the officers individually. The government was innocent, in legal contemplation; for no federal official is authorized to commit a crime on its behalf. When the government, having full knowledge, sought through the Department of Justice, to avail itself of the fruits of these acts in order to accomplish its own ends, it assumed moral responsibility for the officers’ crimes� and if this court should permit the government, by means of its officers’ crimes, to effect its purpose of punishing the defendants, there would seem to be present the elements of ratification [of the crime committed by government officials, individually]. If so, the government itself would become a lawbreaker.”
Brandeis’ entire concluding paragraph is probably warranted. What McVeigh left out speaks volumes. From the record:
“Decency, security, and liberty alike demand that government officials shall be subjected to the same rules of conduct that are commands to the citizen. In a government of laws, existence of the government will be imperiled if it fails to observe the law scrupulously. Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. To declare that in the administration of the criminal law the end justifies the means-to declare that the government may commit crimes in order to secure the conviction of a private criminal-would bring terrible retribution. Against that pernicious doctrine this court should resolutely set its face.”
The act of anarchy that McVeigh committed was an act induced by observation of the governments violation of numerous aspects of the Constitution. In Texas, for example, �9.31 (C) of the Texas Penal Code states:
“The use of force to resist an arrest or search is justified:
“(1) if, before the actor offers any resistance, the peace officer (or person acting at his direction) uses or attempts to use greater force than necessary to make the arrest or search; and
“(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the peace officer’s (or other person’s) use or attempted use of greater force than necessary.
There can be little doubt, regardless of your perception of what occurred in Waco, that the BATF and the FBI did create a situation in which the retaliatory action by the Davidians was fully justified, at least under Texas law. Other events in our recent history can lead us to conclude that the governments efforts at crime control have only generated a scenario where the government may commit crimes, with impunity, and convict others who have not committed a crime of the mere act of possibly contemplating a crime. A very far cry from what Brandeis spoke to some seventy years ago.
Some will suggest that I am attempting to justify McVeigh’s deeds. On the contrary, I have only attempted to explain them.
http://www.outpost-of-freedom……0814mv.htm
Memorial ceremony
Check it out, from Media Matters today:
in the early days of this program, the drive-by media went out and they tried to connect the perpetrator to this program. They did everything they could. In fact, it went so far as Bill Clinton blaming me for influencing Timothy McVeigh to blow up the bureau building [sic: Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City].
Yep, our ol’ buddy Rush Limbaugh, desparately trying to avoid blame for inspiring Timothy McVeigh to blow up the Murrah Building. You can write to Rush here and let him know “Of course you inspired Timothy McVeigh!”
Go to the OKC memorial if you’re ever near. The monument is incredible. The fence for people to leave thought and souvenirs is incredible, as is the chalk on the plaza ground for drawing and writing thoughts.
The museum is incredible. You will absolutely not believe how amazing it is — especially if you’re from a densely populated coastal city or state. There is no way to go through that museum — or visit the memorial — and not come out profoundly affected. In short, a better person.
If you’ll be vaguely near, make the time and detour to be there. Go if you are ever near.
I was at work that morning, carrying a ladder outdoors 18 miles North of the Murrah Building. The sky was blue and clear, when suddenly the ground shook exactly like nearby thunder and I heard an explosion. I thought it was within a half mile of me somewhere, some kind of industrial accident. Then my OKC-based coworkers did not show up for another hour. They told me the news, and we worked a couple of hours as the news rolled in on the radio of the casualties. It started to rain and the boss let us go. I tried to volunteer to help downtown but by this time they were turning people away. That day Senator James Inhofe (the one who now says global warming is a “hoax”) said there would not be that many casualties because few Federal employees would be at their desks at 9am, they’d be off having coffee somewhere.
I had a childhood friend die in the Oklahoma City Bombing. The pictures of the children still haunt me. I’ve had many “discussions” with neo-con acquaintances over the “evil Islamic fundamentalist”. When they trot out the “they are the scariest thing ever” mantra, I remind them of my friend, Oklahoma City, and Tim McVeigh. Crazy white men, are scarier to me than any foreign terrorist.
the christian terrorist death toll keeps rising. ahhh, but none dare say the name “christian terrorist” out loud.
while i’m remembering evil deeds, the worst school massacre ever occurred in Bath, Michegan in 1927 when a middle aged, white, conservative man, outraged over paying taxes to support schools, volunteered for the school board to gain access to the school, sytematically and strategically planted explosives in the building structure, and after murdering his wife one morning, went on to the school to detonate his charges, killing 45 people and injuring 61.”
link
click on the link above for the full story.
I remember I was driving from a college calculus class at the time to my high school. I didn’t have the radio on, but when I got to AP history class a few minutes later, we just listened to the radio. In the midwest, it was nearby enough to be frightening.
Here in Oklahoma, where I was in the 8th grade at the time of the bombing, the schools put out warnings that middle eastern students needed protection from retaliation. That was before we found out who the bombers really were.