
("Mutiny," by Howard Pyle, via the University of Delaware)
On one of the screens at the TPM blog multiplex, Greg Sargent reported yesterday:
Okay, here's some color from inside the meeting today at the White House between President Bush and Congressional leaders about what to do to resolve the impasse over Iraq.
. . . First, the source says, Bush bristled and was taken aback when Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid compared the current situation to Vietnam; he also appeared irked by those who said the war couldn't be won.
Second, according to the source . . . "Reid made it clear to the President that he understood that the President and Vice President after the veto would come after him and Speaker Pelosi with everything they have. Reid said that he and Pelosi would respond just as aggressively. He said he was convinced that they were on the right side of the issue."
In today's papers, more Bushite-friendly sources are trying to peddle different spins, but Reid's apparent evocation of Vietnam (reminding Dubya that "the President and Secretary of Defense knew that the war was lost but continued to press on at the cost of thousands of additional lives") suggests he and Pelosi aren't just reading the polls that have even noted weathervane Rahm Emanuel writing memos urging the Democrats to stand their ground on ending the war — they recognize a moral duty to stop the waste of American soldiers' lives.
Given the rhetorical assault that's likely to come from the White House and the Washington Post editorial page right-wing Wurlitzer, it's important that the Democrats emphasize publicly the moral-duty component of what they're doing.
I wrote a couple of weeks ago:
The tone Democrats should take in explaining their actions isn't angry rebellion, but the sober determination of responsible adults stepping in to clean up a mess that can no longer be tolerated.
Since the charge from our adolescent would-be "strong daddy" President is that Congress is infringing on his imperial authority by demanding a withdrawal from Iraq (hoping that the public doesn't have a strong grasp on that equal-branches-of-government concept), however, there's another metaphor that Democrats should keep in mind: the mutiny.
Not the guns/swords/walking-the-plank aspects of a mutiny, unless they become necessary obviously. But the recognition that even though the captain is given the power to command a vessel, when he is derelict in his responsibilities and irrational in his decision-making, the crew and other officers have the right — and even the duty — to relieve him of his authority, for the good of the ship.
That's the situation we face in this country. This administration has repeatedly betrayed the fundamental trust of Americans, and the people's business needs to be done — and first on that list of business is putting an end to the occupation of Iraq.
In a sense, the problem with advocating impeachment is that it would take too long; it's a protracted legal process, when what the people need is immediate action. A friend (and now co-blogger) told me many years ago that he hated those "Question Authority" bumper stickers: the motto he preferred was "Assume Authority."
That's what Pelosi and Reid need to do now. They should make clear that it's not something they do lightly, but the President has become incapacitated — paralyzed by his unwillingness to admit mistakes — and so they are exercising their moral (and Constitutional) duty to step in and take charge. It's getting to the point where the public will not only back them up, it's begging them to do it.
Related posts:
- Hey, Harry Reid, Stop Protecting Democrats Who Want to Filibuster the Public Option
- BREAKING: Coast Guard Fires on Suspicious Boat on Potomac River [Updated: False Alarm]
- Signs Of The End Times: David Brooks Making Sense
- Early Morning Swim: Rachel on the Public Option
- Reid Endorses WellPoint’s Co-Op Plan





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I think they call it impeachment.
Oh MY! Zed and I wasn’t even trying. I even read the post first!
Hey Swopa!
Damn, here I am reading the post, when I could be getting a zed!
dakine01 @
2
Not very closely, obviously, since I mention impeachment. :-P
I doubt if impeachment or mutiny are viable options but we do need to continue the investigations and keep shining light on the cock-a-roaches.
I only have skimmed the post! ;>)
Swopa @ 4
Well, I just skimmed the last couple of paras which is where the word was embedded. :})
Yeah, this is right on, Swopa. Time to man the phones people. Your congress critters really need to hear that we’re not wishy washy on this. We want them to stand firm.
Bravo! The Democrats find their hormones!
Why does congress and the american people have such a high tolerance for criminal behavior in this administration.
I recall in the first 4 years reading lists of horrors of the administration… That list would go on for pages and pages… and there is no accountability… no one has been punished or suffered and the BS goes on and on.
Time for a regime change on the Potomac.
Strawberries…heh heh…who’s been eatin’ my strawberries?
For the safety of the world, impeachment hearings should commence. I actually think Bush is a sick man and is very capable of bombing Iran and thereby starting the last world war. This is not flippancy and is no joke.
I’ve said it before and I;ll say it again. We haven’t yet pulled back the curtain, this USA attorney purge is just the smallest tip of a ginormous iceberg. Remember, they had the provision in the Patriot Act until just recently overturned by the Dems that would allow them to place unconfirmed attorneys in place.
I myself think there is a master plan (Rove/Cheney) not to have Bush step down in 08. I know it sounds crazy, but I’ll refer back to Bush’s radio address soon after the 06 elections: http://wonkette.com/politics/g…..215021.php
Look at Rummy. Still at DoD, with an office in a bunker, “transition” and all that….
Todays hearing demonstrate conclusively that Clusterfuck has lost the support of the gooper congress. It’s all over for this sad little fuck. The rest of his days in the White House will be holy living hell. He has gone from the strongest man in the world to a weak and ineffectual failure who gets only token resprect from his own party.
Well, they should, because every time Shrub opens his mouth, fewer people support him. Seems like the more they get to know Pelosi, the more they like her…
You’re right OK Kiddo, no joke indeed. I’m convinced that the rest of the world is deeply concerned that we get our house in order. I wouldn’t be surprised if there were a few contingency plans to help take care of things if the US congress and American people cannot sort things out.
Ain’t gonna be no impeachment..Just this public meltdown that will get worse and worse.
Wouldn’t it be sweet if the first female President wasn’t Hillary but Nancy?!
BTW, am cringing watching this clip from Atrios of Bush talking to an appropriately glazed and supportive group in a Town Hall meeting in Stepford, CT.
Line of the day? “Death is terrible.”
Nancy and Harry must maintain their upper hand on this – they cannot sway from the truth. It is encouraging to see several Republicans coming to the light as well.
Unfortunately, many are avoiding the light – it’s remarkable what happens to cockroaches when you turn on the lights!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 13
Actually sometimes you joke to keep from crying.
The most inappropriate thing about Reid’s analogy is that at least Nixon knew the war was lost; I don’t know that Bush even realizes that. Nixon was evil and calculating, but mostly connected to reality. Reality has never been a place where W. was too comfortable hanging out.
Not to sound too geeky, but on the Enterprise, Riker would already have thrown Picard into the brig – or maybe sickbay in a straightjacket – for the good of the ship and crew.
It’s impeachment or nothing. Plus, they have to do Deadeye at the same time. I’ll be astonished if it happens, but then I’ve been astonished a lot recently.
DefJef @
11
I second the motion. Shall we discuss or vote?
Go, Nancy! Go, Harry! You’re right, Oklahoma kiddo @ 13…
For those of us who believe the amurkan system is broken beyond repair, today’s spit roasting of the torture drafter gives some hope of light. Perhaps Frodo’s still walking.
But Swopa keys on the standard to which we have to hold the dems in power. They often talk about congress holding the power of the purse. The real mutiny would be if we deny them our tax dollars unless they pursue the reclamation of our former democracy. That’s the true power of the purse.
As a pirate, Swopa would look great in a leather jacket with the sleeves cut off, which i hope he got back from the Plame House.
How can they “step in and take charge” UNLESS we put impeachment back on the table?!?!? Your strategy sounds like sticking our fingers in holes in the dike, when what we need is a major make-over of the dyke.
Take the Gonzo hearings today: What has become clear is that Gonzo is a cipher as AG; Rove is really running the DOJ through manipulation of what Gonzo is pleased to call his “senior staff.” Sen. Whitehouse’s brilliant chart near the end shows how its done: Rove and hundreds of minions in the WH pipeline political instructions to the top ranks at DOJ. The only way to deal with this is to get Bush-Cheney-Rove-Gonzo out of office, and there is ample evidence to impeach all of them.
Bob in HI
partially o/t, but. . .
rep. henry waxman released the
full-text of covington & burling’s
latest letter on the r.n.c. e-mail
preservation/catalog efforts this
afternoon, as the hearing wrapped-up.
the letter names the proposed
computer forensic firm it has selected. . .
any tech-savvy folk here have a view on this
firm’s abilities, reputation, etc.?
and the idae of white house selecting
the relevant search terms should be a non-
starter. . . easy-to-read jpg’s at the link,
above, the entire text of the letter. . .
would love to know about it. . .
Statement from Deputy Press Secretary Dana Perino
President Bush was pleased with the Attorney General’s testimony today…
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/
dag — i meant to include it
in the above comment — the
firm’s name is stroz freidburg l.l.c.
sorry for the interruption, here. . .
EPUed by thirty or so years, but does anyone recall the phrase and the title Seize the Power
The republic party is just like roaches who scramble when you turn the lights on.
To quote the immortal Stan Freberg as he described the sullen mood of the crew on Columbus’s ship after too many days at sea…
Mutant Poodle @
20
That is Bush speaking today at Tipp City, Ohio.
Months ago I was undecided about the prospect of impeachment. What changed my mind into “yes it must happen, yesterday — and include Cheney” was the fact that so many of the players involved in this trace their lineage from Nixon through Iran-Contra right into Bush the Junior’s Administration. The only way to ever understand (if even possible) the whole scope of the destruction wrought at the hands of this administration would come via impeachment and the hearings that follow. Now, maybe Leahy, Feingold, Waxman, et al are laying the groundwork by doing the investigations first.
Various sources have been credited with Impeachment being used as a “civics lesson”; I believe I’ve heard Bobby Kennedy Jr. cite his uncle Teddy with it, but I’ve seen references to Richard Dreyfuss also. Also, John Nichols of The Nation has made a compelling case, most recently in Impeachment Fever Rises.
Bottom line, for me, is that it must be demonstrated that this will not be tolerated, and the Constitution provides an ultimate check on Executive power which has not been used often enough (or inappropriately in the case of Clinton).
carolyn urban @ 12
(cue: sound of ballbearings being clacked together) :)
valletta @ 19
No doubt about it.
Amendment XXV, double scoop please.
Haralambos @ 33
Well sure. And how bout “Here Come the Judge”
“Assume Authority” is excellent advice when you’re exhorting timid students to write persuasive essays, and it’s great advice for a Congress (especially House speaker) which early on has shown signs of overdoing gentility or (thanks for the apt weather-vane metaphor) shifting in the wind. But since it seems to summarize the advice our current national president heeds, I worry about it becoming a common axiom. I too worry about a 2008 refusal to relinquish authority, given the private armies now battle-training in the Middle East. So it’s important (as well as Constitutionally imperative) to keep the impeachment pressure on NOW, with full expectation of prevailing, before these thugs can pull any more fast ones.
Bob Schacht @ 29
Is Whitehouse’s chart posted somewhere?
valletta @
14
I concur, this is something we really need to be afraid of. My biggest fear, and has been, for years now.
They have put everything into place they can that will enable that sort of thing.
Plethora of Prez Sighings, no end in sight.
Single source no/bid contracts.
Halliburton detention pens.
Blackwater security forces, with a HUGE facility being built in San Diego, CA (have any OTHER states contrcted with Blackwater for security services?)
Patriot Act.
Posse Commitatus.
And a plethora of buried sleepers from Regent U in place.
USAG’s in place.
One fabricated domestic terror attack, or one fabricated international terroristice attack and Martial Law is declared, civil rights suspended and who knows HOW long that could be kept in place, and enforced by armed Blackwater Thugs and Christian Fundie rats in ever neighborhood.
Midnight knocks (or no knocks) on doors to ‘disappear’ the opposition . . . take over the internet for suppression of communications.
It’s all there, it’s fanciful to some, but too many of the pieces are in place, and I NEVER in my lifetime thought I’d see THIS much power consolidated so quickly to the Executive Branch.
Best to nip this one in the bud, QUICK.
As has been noted other times, this Admin is NOT gonna have any sense of anything other than Absolutism Of ThemSelves. THAT, makes them already far more dangerous than any other threat this country has ever faced.
calvin was hoping that the Democrats wouldn’t have to lead the charge. He was hoping that it would become so painfully obvious to the republics that they would.
But, it’s getting to the point where something has to be done. The problem is, of course, that in doing so, lines are drawn and nothing else gets done.
Maybe, he just needs a little more rope.
EPU’D, (where is epu by the way) is way off topic, but hits me hard
way OT
on local OU student news station-another man released from prison in ohio after 26 years of being wrongfully convicted……..i have lost count of how many….seriously, i have lost count…over one million awarded to him and others the same.
feels good to know that they got it right, feels bad at how wrong it is that they got it wrong in the first place. how many more?
hits me, i hate that it does, but it does. frightening. didn’t say if he was black, but a lot of the cases they were. sorry, just hits me hard when i hear those stories, entire lives lost, hope they enjoy themselves with their newfound freedoms and money enough to reflect and live, but what about 26 years of suffering of friends and family??????????? my god. how do you welcome them back?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 39
IMO there is no way for HRC to become the first woman president. Her decisions to be on all sides of every issues makes it impossible for me and lots of others from voting for her. Not to mention those folks who’ll never vote for anyone against taking the troops out of Iraq NOW.
Gotta wonder what Reid and Pelosi took away from their meeting yesterday with the BoyKing. Do they think he’s around the bend? Were there words with Cheney?
Have to ensnare Cheney too. Other wise subsequent to impeachmet of Bush only, Mr. Cheney could appoint Rove to be VP. Now wouldn’t that be a fun nightmare?
carolyn urban @
41
Of course, there’s the Chimpenfuhrer’s REAL motto: “We’re ALL Bozo’s On This Bus.
larue at 44: I hear your concern. However, this assumes that we citizens are helpless. That assumes we can be overrun by – who? brownshirts? It could happen, but I’m of the opinion that though most Americans are asleep at the switch, were there to be a flagrant takeover and loss of our rights and freedoms (okay I know, lets say flagrant to most americans) that we’d have a well armed and pissed off resistance.
And can we put some pressure on our news organizations to POLL about impeachment, please? Every time they are asked why no polls, they respond that “there seems to be no stomach for impeachment on Capitol Hill.”
But we are not asking them to poll Capitol Hill — we are asking them to poll the American people so that the poll might influence opinion on Capitol Hill!
There’s a conspiracy afoot to keep the table set the way it is.
rwcole @
15
I disagree, but only in degree, rwcole.
I think that today’s defections of leading (R)s signifies the next stage of the endgame. More and more, (R)s (who are not diehard neocons) will realize that their future elections, their party and their nation will be in jeopardy if W and his criminal gang remain in power. (I think that the priorities of the (R)s will be in about that order, but there are some, like ex-Congressman Bob Barr and the (R) senators who denounced Gonzalez today, who are acting like patriots already).
Anyhow, soon it will become apparent that W cannot veto ANY important bill and make it stick. When that time comes, and it is accelerating towards us more and more each day, the dogs of impeachment will be loosed upon the land and all the inhabitants thereof. And I hope that it is not too late.
America, the Beautiful, God shed His grace on thee…
TeddySanFran @ 52
There used to be polls on impeachment a few years ago. Last one I saw had reach 50%. I remember celebrating. Must be well above that now.
Here’s the truly horrifying thought.
With GOP corruption in all three branches, how do you clean out the rot if all of them refuse to cooperate?
Prosecutors and Feds who won’t investigate or bring charges.
Judges who blatently ignore prior rulings and declare the law as they see it (as the Christian God intended it!)
And enough deadweight in Legislation to keep the Unconstitutional on the books as laws.
What then? What price victory?
Looks as though many things may be coalescing around a tipping point. Situations may become dangerous.
OT, EPU’ed in todays rush, repeating in case you missed it:
live mic, moments after gavel for Gonzo lunch break:
Press: “(inaudible)…enough documents…(inaudible)?”
Schumer: “(chuckles) wait until you see the documents from the Indian files.”
!!!750,000 documents on Abramoff/McCain/Indian Casinos to be released!!!
hold on to your hats!
Also, see this serious error in the WaPoO chat today of senior Slate editor Emily Bazelon, who seems not to know Abu can be impeached:
With “experts” misinforming the relatively well-educated political class who participate in WaPoO chats, we are doomed.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 56
I think there isn’t a tipping point, except possibly identifiable in retrospect. Living through it it just drags on & on. Change is underway, but hard to guage how quickly.
C’mon folks, buck up. Stop with the scary thoughts. If this were November 2004, I’d be there with you. But look at the progress we’ve made. There are many, many more people now paying attention. Many, many more who agree with us than not. Bush is weakened, broken, on his way out. Desperate, sure. Rove will try some tricks, but we’ve already seen the limits of his “brilliance”. These fucks are TOAST.
swopa;
i think that you all don’t even comprehend what you have instigated. so many letters and changes of thought have happened because of what you have written………mutiny happens when one sailor opens his/her mouth and says, this isn’t right…….that’s where it starts……
d
TeddySanFran @ 56
That is kinda scary.
Excellent, Swopa. It’s time for leading Democrats to start acting like adults, even if others aren’t ready to do so, yet. Your style and message here should be imitated by all of us.
dmac @ 60
damn right. And we’re standing by the apple barrels right now plotting, and there’s a whole crowd headed over thinking about joining us. We’re under the Charter Oak, plotting, and it feels GOOD!
Nor Cal John #36 . . .
GREAT memory whack for me . . keep forgetting, Sy Hersh and SO many others since 2000 have been telling it over and over, how the NeoCons roots are in the past, and what the history is since WaterGate.
These are seasoned, battle hardened and enduring Power Mongers.
They have noned their craft, and learnt from ALL the mistakes over the years.
And look how they proceeded . . . first election, stolen.
Supreme Court Appointments.
Second election, stolen.
And all the rest that’s been mentioned in the past 6 years.
It’s scary once you put it all on the same page to look at.
Like The Chart shown today . . . . when you VISUALIZE it, it’s HUGE!
And we all let it happen . . . like frogs in a slowly warming pot.
Time to make amends, and make better. Not make nice.
It all started uder a buttonwood tree, didn’t it?
carolyn urban @ 59
And the more desperate they get, the more crazy their actions become. Keep in mind, half the stuff going on now started after the 2006 elections. And the toothless media is still firmly in GOP pockets.
As they say, “And then what?”
I haven’t seen the chart yet…
The president says he is very pleased with Gonzo’s testimony, and WH speaker says he has not heard any of it. Those are not straws but large logs and they should have broken this stupid arrogant camel’s back a long time ago.
Am again very close to mutinize -yes such a word needs to be invented.
The thing is, most folks that I know do not even care about any of it! They are clueles – what USA scandal? What voter fraud? Wolfowitz who?
Lisa in Bama @ 24
We find our lessons in all sorts of places – StarTrek and Zappa lyrics work for me too. :)
ccmask @ 65
Huh? That set up the U.S. financial markets.
Phule @ 67
No matter what they do it’s most definitely better with the Dems are in charge. We wouldn’t even know fact #1 about the whole USA scandle if the republic party were still in the majority.
Bush is still the man with the finger on ‘the button’.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 49
Doubtful that would happen, Senate would never confirm Rove
Emily Bazelon did correct herself, although she made it sound like Congress shouldn’t impeach agency heads they don’t like:
Excellent post, Swopa. I agree that the frame ought to be grown ups stepping up to clean up the mess created by a regime that is intellectually and morally incapable of governing.
But I also strongly support impeachment and conviction. There is no reason why both the grownups take charge and impeachment can’t be pursued simultaneously. The adults taking charge is the short-run remedy for reversing the President on individual issues; impeachment is the constititutional remedy for getting rid of the entire regime.
Impeachment and removal from office are essential for restoring the integrity of the Constitutional framework, and would send a powerful signal to the world that we reject everything the Bush/Cheney regime stood for. It’s an essential first step towards reconciliation with the rest of the world, and with ourselves.
carolyn urban @ 50
I want to agree with that, I want to VALUE the point.
But, I believe the general public is FAR out gunned, already.
And, there’s that HORRIBLE history of early 30’s Germany.
My you be right on this one, all the way, and may we ALL be lucky that it never comes to any of this.
TeddySanFran @
52
Here’s where to find polls on impeachment.
Bob in HI
An attack line:
“You are aiding the enemy by declaring this war can’t be won!”
Answer: “What? You think it can be won? Exactly how?”
and…
Answer: “Who exactly is the enemy: Sunni, or Shiite? Or, Muslim theocracies? Isn’t the real truth that this is a war against Muslim theocracies, with Shiite Iran threatening to take control of Shiite portions of Iraq?”
“Why, exactly, is it in the US best interests to keep Shiite populations from consolidating and having a theocracy? Why, exactly, to I care? What effect does this have on my life?”
Personally, it has no effect on my life, or my pursuit of happiness. How about yours?
Puesto @ 79
One word: Oil.
The ONLY way to get rid of any of these guys is to get the RNC, WH, Abramoff, emails and documents – all of them. More than enough overwhelming evidence will surely be found there to get them removed. The Repubs that fear for their jobs in the future will take them down and that began to happen today, but we need proof that they have been running a Republican permanent takeover of the United States using taxpayer money. This is going to happen and we have to keep the heat on.
tbsa @ 71
And this is not to undermine the gains made by the Democratic Majority, but oversight only applies as long as the other side chooses to follow the rules.
Case in point, the subpoenas are going out, but the Wh is already moving to have them ignored, delayed and otherwise D.O.A.
And we have to trust in this Justice department to enforce them against the WH. A department flushed of non-partisian oversight and filled with Republican Fundie Insurgents in the mold of IOKIYAR.
Ballbearings and Strawberries
you go Swopa!
Ironyesc8psem @ 74
Well… perhaps there are alternative Republicans who might slide through. Say some GOP’r not as outwardly abrasive, but at least as dangerous.
We need whistleblowers.
This is all good, talking about mutiny in the political sense. I’m wondering how long it will be, if ever, before the military starts chanting “hell no, I won’t go”.
This is off thread, but, since others are invoking this subject (which, it seems to me, FDL should be giving people a chance to summarize their thoughts on the big story of the day – Gonzo, IMNSHO ;-}) BUT….
Wouldn’t it really be better for the cause to let Bush continue to defend this idiot – Gonzo – and make an ass out of himself?
Think about it. If he resigns, there are no more targets. Bush and Rove have their “high value target” and they can then wait till the American public tires of the subject and or the Dems start to look like vengeful zealots without a real meaningful agenda.
Just a thought.
I agree with your recommended course of action completely except I still think we have to impeach. And that is because without taking some legal action, future administrations will have this hideous example to point to as precedent. We need to prosecute all the perps in whatever way we can to make sure, e.g., the 30-something jesusfreaks in the DoJ don’t come back 30 yrs later like Cheney and Rumsfeld and think what they did was fine but they just need to be sneakier next time.
mulligatawny @ 80
Exactly, it effects my life when I am paying 3.50 a gallon for 87 octain gasoline. Pretty sure it effects everything you purchase that has to be driven to where ever you purchase it.
Seineman @ 86
Ding a ling.
mulligatawny @ 80
Exactly, but the right wing audience needs to say that from genesis of their own arguments.
hey firedogs – just catching up – have everything after lunchbreak on tivo – can’t wait
Swopa -
what the hell is this ??
raw story
and hey, Gunga Djinn
thank you for that ‘Indian Files’ quote above – that makes this little hippy, very happy :)
TeddySanFran @ 58
Great point, TeddySanFran, one which I had temporarily forgotten. Why aren’t Dems moving on that very course of action?
tbsa @ 89
Which brings the next big question: If a person or family of median income, pencils out a budget 3 years ago, and another one today, how in hell does the government come up with, like, 2% inflation.
My budget is a good 20% to 25% higher than three years ago.
Answer: Political “smoke and mirrors.”
[Mod Note; beware the burgeoning ziggurat.]
Seineman @ 86
Ah, but they’re already doing that. The “surge” has been deliberately reduced to a trickle, because the Pentagon Generals have refused to order troops who just got back to return too quickly and refusing to extend the tours beyond 15 months. If they truly believed this war was critical and a surge was essential, those limits would NOT apply. The mutiny is already happening; it’s just not reported that way.
carolyn urban @ 9
I was pleased to see this quote from my congressman on the war funding battle, but I’ll still give him a call to let him know we’ve got his back.
1,491 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Swopa and the Firepup patriots:
“…the problem with advocating impeachment is that it would take too long.”
I very respectfully disagree with you about this tactical view. If you look at the last two impeachment processes …once begun they went VERY fast because most of the evidence was already available thru investigations on-going. Once begun, the impeachment process takes a life of its own and is irreversible. More and more, I am coming to the conclusion that the only way to collate the various scandals and investigations of scandals and get the information that is lying in Fitz’s files right now is impeachment. Impeachment and special prosecutors are the fastest way to call all these criminals to account and emasculate them politically so they can no longer initiate diversions.
I remember that from the beginning of the ErvIn Committee hearings to the articles of impeachment was a VERY short time…once started it is a process that will grind everything in its path.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION…THIS IS NOT A DRILL!!
OT still catching up on comments
the lehrer report on pbs about abu is making the hair rise on my skin…..showing testimony……oh my god………why is this man still employed???????????
incompetent, irrisponsible, did i say incompetent?
leahey-very disappointing-\
spector-to reestablish his integrity-very disapointing
19 sens asking questions
spector-we do not know why they were fired
i thought spector was setting up abu-but he is pissed on this show.
“we couldn’t get fact from answers”–incompetence mentioned.
leahey:lost emails mentioned.
a lot more here we have to find.
spector:
lost emails to look at. let whitehouse personnel in. 5 yr testimony enters in-
leahey=the president has set a low bar indeed.
When I look at the prez and his two lieutenants, Rove and Cheney, I think, ‘crazy, crooked, and about to be caught’. That is a dangerous axis.
Scarecrow @ 94
Are you sure it’s not being done on Bush’s orders in order to extend his stalling about ‘Giving the Surge time to work’?
The bastards are playing for time.
when are they going to show spiderman?
Ralph @ 93
Great idea! Impeaching Gonzalez because he won’t resign give us lots of political theatre for the coming months. The name of the game is to wound this right wing crooks for 2008. Hitting them too early, and the public has a short, short memory.
Impeachment hearings are great theatre. Ask Bill and Hillary, his supplicant concubine while he was being dragged through this.
And, oh, buy the way, if she was as smart as some people falsely claim, she would have kicked him out of the White House and into and efficiency apartment, or something, and had his paycheck garnished for child support and maintenance. This woman would be viewed as strong today. Too late now, and a politician in denial is a dead pol.
Swopa:
Our sea surgeon, you have put your finger on the pulse of the American body politic and rendered a spot on diagnosis. As well, you have prescribed a course of treatment that any sane practitioner would recognize as sound.
The mutiny metaphor raises troubling connotations – even the Caine Mutiny, rolling the steel balls and all, was an ambiguous exercise in moral authority – yet point it does, squarely, at the problem: King George is mad; the ship of state is foundering; something must be done. Only a sober hand on the tiller, only a grave assembly in the wardroom, can deal with this bitter ropes-end of policy.
Leahy did everything today short of pointing a finger at Gonzo and saying “Liar! Poltroon!” And in so maintaining the decorum of our Senate, our government, our ship of state, he oiled the waters, he made possible the passing of a lifeline between partisanship and our shipmates on the other side of the storm-tossed seas of Captain Bush’s folly. Even Cornyn and Sessions see the danger in a dangling Gonzo.
Call me Ishmail, if you will. But today our own Ahab has been put on report. We will sail the SS America back to Port Constitution. All hands to braces!
Scarecrow @ 95
I hope you are right. If it ever is reported as such, that’s it, the end.
Puesto @ 87
I disagree — we need the DoJ documents to bring sunlight to their radical takeover scheme. If he stays, he’s a firewall, and all his little Regent robots can feel confident that they’ll be protected, too. If he’s forced out, it makes a lot harder for them to hold out. (Not that we shouldn’t go after them even while he’s twisting in the wind, because he pretty much hung them out to dry today, but still.)
Norske: Ervin Watergate Committee started in March 1973, did not issue report until June 1974. Nixon resigned August 8, 1974. Are you willing to wait that long? Until July 2008?
TeddySanFran @ 48
Hi TSF, I was at work today…did I see you mention something about being censored in the WaPo comments section?
The man’s too dense to notice:
Dad was star ballplayer at Yale.
Son was star nickname giver at same.
Dad was hero aviator.
Son wore aviator glasses after snorting blow.
Dad put evil Saddam on Baghdad lockdown for world to see.
Son made Saddam into hero/martyr.
Dad was single term pres and went out like a man.
Son is two term sentence and gets brattier by the hour.
Dad will be remembered for his foresight and restraint.
Son will be remembered for presiding over start of American decendency.
Sr. and Babs raised him.
Boy ain’t right (liked to burn people).
What a fucking greek tragedy mess we’ve got to clean up.
Gates had to go to Iraq to spank Maliki today…
OT-
Oregon just got civil unions and statewide anti-discrimination legislation through both houses (gov Kulongoski will sign bills)
Phule @ 100
Well put! Red Herrings are a time honored political trick. And, disgusting as he is, Rove is crafty.
Phule — many in the Pentagon argued against the surge, and their strongest argument (without appearing disloyal) was that we didn’t have the troops to do it without violating all of the rotation limits. And they’re still making that argument. I think the pleas for more time come from those who wanted the surge and want to give it as much chance to “succeed” as they can.
Scarecrow @ 95
Hi Scarecrow:
How do you know the generals are refusing? This is music to my ears, these are the players who can influence the republicans and turn them. After watching the Abu hearing today, I was impressed with how disgusted they were with him and his performance which would have gained applause a year ago (except Orrin)
My thinking on the issue of impeachment hearings, is to start them, along with parallel criminal investigations.
I like the way Pelosi deals with Bush. Bush ends up looking like Eddie Haskell
The point is, we cannot afford to do nothing.
TeddySanFran @ 106
Well, the name of the game is to kill them in the public’s eye for the election year. Joe voter is really quite illiterate and has a very short attention span.
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 107
I questioned Sue Schmidt’s reliance on the Doolittle’s side of the story, ascribing to “sources familiar with the investigation” the idea that the Doolittle raid was all about MRS Doolitte. I called her Steno Sue in my comments, both of which were yanked by a moderator.
Just checking — now, my previously yanked comments have been restored and my comment about being censored has been yanked. Funny moderation at WaPoO!
here
Semiot @4:30 – great comment.
Remember report a few weeks ago of US Generals that would resign in mass if Bush invaded Iran?
Also, George Tenet’s book will be out April 30th:
“Allies say the 511-page book-300,000 in the first printing-isn’t a rant: Tenet spent a year and a half researching it, reviewed tens of thousands of documents, and conducted dozens of interviews with key players to fill in the gaps of his story, the first by a true Bush insider involved in making war policy.”
P.R. rollout includes a rare two-segment 60 Minutes appearance.
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/p….._print.htm
Book will not be kind to Bush/Cheney/Rice:
http://www.editorandpublisher……1003571875
carolyn urban @
119
…as usual.
bill @ 115
Beautifully put!
Has Bush lost it? This account of his Ohio trip to push the war on terra sounds like he is at the end of his tether, incoherent and cognitively dissonant, with ramblings about chicken-plucking factories and the rug in the Oval Office.
And, he has finally realiized that war kills people. He says, “Death is terrible.” Tell us about it, Mr. President.
The picture accompanying the article says it all.
Behold, the leader of the free world.
Is Tenet’s publisher a Viacom satellite like CBS? Because the wingers will run with that — just another guy pushing his book on a media outlet with something to gain from book sales.
bill @ 115
I love it, too! She scolds him like your grandmother when your mom was out of town! “Get me a switch!”
She makes him look so childish. And, this just grates on his male chauvinist ass… you can tell.
Great strategy. Make his answers and demeanor look like a petulant child… Poppy Bush is really fed up with this guy.
Smoke out his immature side, Nancy! You just go girl!
Pelosi 2007… With Obama as VP..
Atrios has a video up of what Little Boots ‘thinks’ about comparing Vietnam and Iraq. Warning; you’ll vurp.
gotta love Josh’s analogy:
zennurse — Hey, welcoome back. Never mind the Generals (Murtha has been signaling their mutinous thoughts for a year). How are you? You’ve been missed. And you wouldn’t believe the people they let post here anymore!
I’m afraid I can’t put much faith into what the ’slam dunker’ has to say. That’s one book I will probably pass on.
TeddySanFran @ 124
Tenet’s book is HarperCollins, owned by Rupert Murdoch’s News Corporation.
http://www.harpercollins.com/b…..index.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HarperCollins
omg, the WHCA gets punked and not by Rich Little.
People magazine’s guest is…. Sanjaya
aReader, that will make the rightwing’s treatment of Tenet’s book all the more interesting, no?
I don’t want impeachment, I want criminal trials.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 129
In his book, Tenet denies making the “slam dunk” claim.:
“Tenet takes on vice president Dick Cheney. Cheney has maintained that Tenet told President Bush in December of 2002, two weeks before Bush decided to invade Iraq, that there was a ’slam dunk’ case to be made that Saddam Hussein possessed those banned weapons. But now Tenet denies ever making that claim. David, this is a big fight. It’s pushback time.
http://www.editorandpublisher……1003571875
TeddySanFran @ 106
Doonesbury speaks up on the subject:
http://www.doonesbury.com/stri…..e=20070417
*Continued to the next day.
Loo Hoo @ 133
Well sure Loo Hoo. One thing at a time, but these folks are all headed to the Hague. Someone commented the other day “This admin doesn’t recognize the Hague” Yes, but the Hague recognizes them!
Scarecrow @ 128
yeah, sheesh – there goes the neighborhood :~)
(welcome back)
http://capitalnews.org/
OT: Cspan Poll ’should Gonzo step down’
Swopa excellent post nice to see you at the lake.
lolo
Semiot at 103.
Beautifully said.
We need to do something drastic…
Issue subpoenas, have repugs tell us to fuck off, then hold them in contempt and seize the
government. How can Gonzo not remember the November 27th meeting…. he is such a fucking
liar…
Please Fitzy, tell is about the e-mails for the
good of the Nation (like Elliot Richardson)
Hi zennurse. We’ve missed you.
The truth is that while Iraq will be a black eye for America, the country will get through and past it. But George W Bush won’t — his reputation will be forever tarnished, and he will be rightly viewed even in conservative history books as a failure.
The sad fact is that the interests of the President and the interests of the country are now in opposition.
Articles of Impeachment To Be Filed On Cheney by Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio)
http://blog.washingtonpost.com…..to_be.html
Vice President’s office will look into impeachment report.
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/….._0418.html
Were they ever the same?
Lou Costello @ 143
Good on Dennis… he’s got balls
edited by commenter.
You didn’t need to see that rant.
aReader @ 134
Well, I didn’t notice Tenet resigning and coming out in protest of the Bush policies. I have a hard time thinking that because Tenet confirms or denies anyhing, that would necessarily make it so.
fyi – hugh has been updating his list of bush scandals… it’s gone from 114 about 10 days ago to it’s current number of 137.
there’s lot to repudiate here.
Scarecrow @ 128
Hey yourself, yeah I’ve noticed some great prose and punditry today during the Gonzo hearings. I have a lot of catching up to do, been off the toobz for a while.
Thanks. Say hi to your son!
Scarecrow @ 76
amen!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 147
Didn’t notice him turning down the Medal of Freedom either.
Question: WHY, when Christy begs everyone not to post silly comments (because of the server load), do some continue to do it?
I noticed that on all the hearing entries (when she posted the plea), there were still the silly “CHRISTY!”, etc, BS.
Are you all right-wingers? Children? Do you post before you read? (No, that can’t be it, since the plea was posted every time.) Maybe you don’t read any of them.
But it is really childish to keep doing it when asked not to.
TeddySanFran @ 118
Maybe Debbie the ombudsman can join Steno Sue by reprising her explanation of how Democrats were also implicated in Abramoffs criminal activities, and then John *I print Rethuglican Opposition research as my stories* can follow up with a piece about Harry Reid’s involvement for a WaPo in the Donald Graham era trifecta. It’s a lot easier to lose your credibility than to get it back, WaPo. And you, of all people, should know it.
By ifthethunderdontgetya | Apr 19, 2007 7:54:25 PM | Request Removal
P.S. That was supposed to be
John *I print Rethuglican Opposition research as my stories* Solomon, of course.
selise @ 148
I agree.
I want some form of public accountability for the crimes committed by this administration.
carolyn urban @ 144
Ha. Good one.
But he could previously argue that he had a constituency. Now even his own party and his own Defense Secretary are at odds with him, and the looming elections combined with the facts on the ground will only make that more apparent.
I think that means that this country is going to go through much worse before things get any better.
OT, but just watched the second showing of hardball. And for those of you with Patrick McHenry as your congress critter, WOW! You’ve got an idiot too!
waving to zennurse
welcome back to the Lake – wow !
zennurse @ 149
you’ve been missing some big news… scarecrow posts on the front page now!
Slam Dunk Tenet will take a few more wobblers over the side of the ship with him.
Capt. Queeg-Bush is almost all alone fiddling with his balls.
It’s all about critical mass.
-GSD
Re: Tenet…
Isn’t part of the CIA’s job spec, to have an uncanny ability to tell stories?
Texas Betsy @
26
The AGAG hearing today was a small step for man and a giant step for Democracy. The road to impeachment just became a Freeway.
Wow, Whitehouse, Whitehouse !!!
… to take nothing away from Leahy, Kennedy, Schumer and Feingold
eCAHNomics @ 151
That’s right. And what did he get the Medal for? Telling the truth or telling lies? :0)
Scarecrow @ 112
They’re already violating the rotation limits though. But I’ll concede the point that it’s possible the Pentagon people are actually trying to serve their country over He’r Leader for a change.
The Repugs have kept the Dems in the corner by calling them weak. I remember hearing after 9/11, to my sick stomach, “At least Al Gore isn’t President.”
Anyway, my point is that if the Democrats are ever going to perceived as strong, they are going to have to stand up to Bush. They can’t keep drawing lines in the sand, like the timetable, and then backing down. Right now, the polls say that people trust the Democrats more on security than the Republicans. If they don’t jump now, they are going to look weak. And that’s what the Repugs are counting on.
I’m waiting for the Gonzo sum up. Got lots of questions on that.
1,491 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen TeddySanFran and the Firepup Patriots:
I just remember the when the Ervin Committee began the public hearings in early summer of 1973, the di was cast by that fall…my point I guess was that once the political investigations begin into impeachable offenses in the White House and a special prosecutor is enabled, then the process is unstoppable. And, in this case, I think that the only way we get criminal investigations goin’ is to leverage offa the existing special prosecutor’s work and initiate the process in the House of Representatives which will have the effect of circumscribing the White House’s ability to initiate politically.
There is so much corruption and so many folks that need to be terminated politically that the only way we get to enabling criminal investigations and multiple special prosecutors is to advance behind the process of impeachment. I believe that once we get a couple a special prosecutor’s workin’ the smokin’ guns will be fallin outta the sky within months.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THIS AIN’T A TIME TO BE TIMID!!!
carolyn urban @
60
Christy’s title should be “Burnt Toast” – Abu got grilled but good !!!
Shell @ 152
I suspect there are a variety of reasons. Some people don’t read the post or the comments and just comment right away when they show up. Some just want the others to know they are around. Some, I’m sure have visited the DONATE box in the upper right and feel it is their payed privilege to post whatever/whenever they want. And remember Christy is watching the server load and if things were really heavy, like Libby, she would shout louder!
http://www.sitemeter.com/?a=st…..ke&r=1
The Democrats have to put this war right back in Bush’s lap. They need a catch phrase that they can repeat over and over again like Bush does. I don’t know when they’re going to learn this. I suggest…
If Bush didn’t want to lose this war, he should have done a better job. He can’t blame us.
Are Arlen Specter’s eyes really screwy looking to anyone else?
-GSD
Oklahoma kiddo @ 162
Telling lies. Who is it who says: another simple answer to a simple question.
No, it ain’t. Attack. Buck up. Press forward, hard. Everyone, in his own way.
Sheets!
Or something…
you have the wrong mutiny and the wrong graphic. The words Caine and Queeg come to mind. And I’d resolved never to comment again!
Georgesimian @ 164
Standard bully tactics. Way to counter bullies is to hit back. That’s all. Now Ds will have to keep at it steadily, because Rs are so into bullying, they can’t change.
Phoenix Woman has a question to ask upstairs.
semiot @
103
And when King George went mad, his son became the ruler. Called the Regency period.
OT
John Dean on Countdown.GSD @ 169
An infection.
Abu had his hands full as it was, without having to peer @ Specter looking ghoulish.
Pwriz, 108:
With due respect I disagree that the Bush story is a Greek tragedy at all. In an authentic Greek tragedy, the protagonist is a person of great moral character, extraordinary charisma, and outstanding achievement, who suffers from a fatal flaw, hubris. This hubris, call it arrogance and pride, drives the protagonist to his destruction bit by inexorable bit, until his whole world crashes in on him. By this measure, Bush is not a tragic figure at all, except he does possess an abundance of hubris, and his world is crashing in on him.
No, the Bush story is not a tragedy, but a cautionary tale about what can happen to a great country when it loses its committment to justice and fair play, and is seduced by duplicitous agents of destruction. If there is a tragedy here, it is what happened to the American people because a few have fooled the many. If it were not so sad, you would call it a farce.
GSD @ 169
I heard or read a report that he has an eye infection.
TeddySanFran @
75
Executive officers serve at the pleasure of the legislature as well. That’s what impeachment means. And I think there is no better way to preserve separation of powers than to impeach officials who have shown such contempt for it.
Dreamcatcher, great comment.
Shell @ 152
Most of us weren’t potty trained at gunpoint. So, a little light, human, warm remarks does not interrupt my reading.
It makes it a more human, personally interactive experience. I, for one, do not read FDL with a great deal of anger while my body is all puckered up.
I do it for recreation, in the evening having a beer, or in the morning with coffee while I watch the sun rise.
I don’t want to go o/t. I hate Iraq war and usually it gets me fired up, but today all I want to talk about is Gonzo hearing.
Lou — I agree — those are about all the excuses. But if you donate, you can screw up the site? And you wait for Christy to shout louder?
As I said — children. “Mommy didn’t REALLY mean it! And besides, I got an A on the spelling test, so I can do what I want!”
Wait a minute. Reid specifically mentioned Vietnam. That means Nixon. Nixon means Impeachment in anyone’s first thought.
He also said that they would respond in kind with the WH’s doing all they could. I take that as meaning impeachment is back on the table.
Impeachment is not a prison sentence, it’s a process. Nixon was one tough SOB and he crumbled before he was impeached.
Puesto –
“Most of us weren’t potty trained at gunpoint. So, a little light, human, warm remarks does not interrupt my reading.”
Not the point. If the bandwidth isn’t a concern, be as silly as you want.
But quit being silly when it matters. Can’t you just do that? It has nothing to do with interrupting reading. Those comments are on every response. Usually, it doesn’t matter.
dakine01 @ 156
He looked a tad upset with tweety
Georgesimian @ 168
I agree to a certain extent; however, I wouldn’t draw the line at Bush. The whole neocon experiment, the whole Reagan Revolution, the whole Drown the Government in a Bathtub, the whole “who would be better to have a beer with”, the whole God speaks to me, the whole “I looked in Putin’s eye and liked what I saw”, the whole tax cutting Republicans — the whole damn apparatus has to have this anchor tied around their collective neck for now and forever. I am not being facetious when I think Bush has the capacity of destroying the GOP.
I do agree with the need for Democratic Party to clearly and consistently be alert for Rapid Responses to the Right Wing Wurlitzer that will be firing everything it has. I think Americans are ready for somebody smarter than ourselves (well, given the readers around here I’ll limit it to myself) to be President. It is time to return to science and reality; it shocks me the amount of people agreeing with a (Newsweek?) poll question along the lines of all life being formed in the last 10,000 years (no evolution).
Finally, the phrase you offer for Democrats to recite implies that invading a sovereign nation that posed no threat to the USA was the right thing, just handled incompetently. I couldn’t disagree more, we have no right to upend international law in the countless ways Bushco ™ has.
urging the Democrats to stand their ground on ending the war — they recognize a moral duty to stop the waste of American soldiers’ lives. Swopa
And that should be their talking point
How can the right counter a clear moral obligation. oops I forgot who I was dealing with.
Call
eCAHNomics @ 170
Atrios?
Good post. But would you stop with the strikethroughs already. They are really cute the first time. Then they are just
dumb annoying.[Mod Note; they are even more annoying when you use them and forget to close them.]
I want Bush impeached. I want him to leave office as a disgraced past President. Of course, I want criminal trials too. But Bush has dishonored the Presidency and our country. He deserves no honor himself.
Nor Cal John @ 188
I agree, but all that stuff is complicated. They have to have a single phrase for the public that they pound over and over again, from every commentator, Senator, etc. You don’t want to get into all that stuff. We’re talking about the current situation. Bush trying to blame the Democrats for losing the war by adding a timeline to their budget.
They can still do all that other stuff, and talk about it, but they need a simple, powerful line that they can get behind.
Georgesimian @ 193
hesikastor @
173
Been there, blogged that. ;)
dreamcatcher @ 123:
The (formerly) most powerful man in the world, speaking in the Tippecanoe High School gymnasium, about “chicken plucking factories, or whatever you call them…”.
we’re all being sucked into a black hole or something, aren’t we?
Reid and Pelosi need to press hard for there is not doubt, no doubt that the rats have been leaving the ship for some time now. The Dems need to paint the ReThugs as Bush supporters and it will be, it will be a mad scramble in the Senate as ReThug Senators trample each other to be the first to throw Bush under the bus.
You see….
They do face re-election.
A.Citizen @ 197
It’s true. The closer all these Repugs are to Bush, the worse off they are.
aReader @
120
Right. This is good because it will help put the spotlight back on Cheney, who must be impeached first. Maybe it will give Fitzgerald something more to work with.
Bob in HI
SusanD –
I, too, want Bush GONE. And Cheney. But if they leave office, the GOP will put in someone else … who will becomes prez in 2008?
I distinctly recall when Nixon left office, and Ford became prez. Most seemed to think that if Ford hadn’t pardoned Nixon, he would have become prez by voters in 1976.
Hard to believe but true. We cannot let that happen again. Are most Americans paying attention? It seems they aren’t really.
Bush can leave on November 1st for all I care. Just so long as he leaves in disgrace. He’s earned it.
I mean 11/1/08.
And there’s a new thread.
BUT — even if he doesn’t leave office in disgrace, we must not forget. That always seems to happen. If he sticks it out, and leaves in Jan. 2009, STILL prosecute him. It seems that has never happened. Cheney, too — although he will probably be dead by then. (His heart, you know.)
If Congress has the authority to declare war, can they declare this one over?
Swopa – I couldn’t agree with you more. This has been a very turbulent week, indeed. The executive branch needs to be relieved of their duties asap before they can inflict more damage upon our country and the Constitution in which it exists.
So Reid just quoted the VP to Bush….
“Go F#@$ yourself!”
I did get the quote right didn’t I???
“President has become incapacitated — paralyzed by his unwillingness to admit mistakes”
Another similarity to Vietnam — Bush is AWOL
what a farago of rose-colored sentiment.
the closest that any congressional dem within a mile of the leadership has come to “moral” considerations is that a huge number of us voters find bushco’s conduct morally reprehensible, and that we are likely to take it amiss if our hirelings’ statements don’t reflect our convictions.
but you better believe that’s far from saying that their sense(s) of morality and/or patriotism are governing the leadership’s actions. i don’t say that they are utterly devoid of a sense of the higher purposes. most of them are human, after all. but all we know of their records suggest that those senses are systematically marginalized into practical dormancy.
a reasonable way to read the leadership’s moral courage-o-meter is to observe their attitude on impeachment. they obsessively fear admitting the existance of the impeachment mechanism. they are way more scared of just discussing the matter seriously than they are of any damage that bushco could concievably do in the coming months. and most of them freely admit that the administration is determined to wreak more havoc on every level until the bitter end.
but our leaders don’t even dream of risking a thing they think they have to perform their assigned roll in removing this catastrophic government.
i don’t know about you, swopa, but i feel that i have to suffer such people until and unless something better emerges. but i don’t have to fall blindly in love with them.