Last nite, on what was billed as part of the weeklong series on Iraq, America at a Crossroads, PBS gave a full hour to the views of uber-neocon Richard Perle to make The Case for War. These are my real-time impressions while I watched the show; I don’t have a transcript, so you may want to check for links to the full show. This link is to the excellent and sobering expose presented immediately before the Perle segment; it’s not the hour long film on/by Perle that PBS showed last night.
I’m upset about this because I misunderstood the Perle segment would be Frontline, with its usually excellent reporting and editing, but it wasn’t. Instead, PBS just gave Perle an hour to follow the prior film, and Perle used it to produce his own film. MacNeil let him do his own program, to say anything he wanted without anyone questioning his logic, his facts, or his conclusions. There was no follow up by critics to challenge his views or his facts or how he portrayed them. At times, we see him apparently speaking to someone, but it is only him we hear; we don’t hear the interviewer or the question or any followup questions. At other times he talks with others, including critics, but he is the editor, choosing the topics and what to show and how. It is obvious that PBS gave Perle full editorial control. [UPDATE: Per Peterr in the comments below, it appears that PBS planned a series of independently produced documentaries/films, one of which was Perle's. That puts a different light on my final assessment of what follows, because I mistakenly assumed this was a Frontline series. My apologies for the mistake.]
Without any challenge, Perle repeated and misrepresented the two great lies that he helped the Bush/Cheney regime foist on the American public — that Saddam’s regime had WMD that represented a clear and imminent danger to the US, and that Saddam’s regime had extensive contacts and collaboration with terrorist organizations including the al Qaeda factions that attacked us on 9/11. He repeated the fact that both Democrats and Republicans originally agreed with those views, without ever mentioning the role he and other neocons, as well as Bush, Cheney, Rice, and others played in misleading both parties about the intelligence. We never hear about the intelligence manufactured by Doug Feith or Chalibi, or exposed by Joe Wilson or the bogus reports about Niger.
At one point, he interviewed a war critic, Simon Jenkins, but it is his interview, his editing that determined what we saw. And what was the topic he discussed with Jenkins? It was whether we should have invaded Afghanistan to overthrow the Taliban. We do not hear what Jenkins thinks or has said about the Iraq war.
He talks next with Pat Buchanan, who describes Perle’s views as contrary to traditional American foreign policy. It sounds like the “neo Comintern,” Pat says. It’s “democratic imperialism,” as though Bush can “eliminate evil” from the face of the earth. “Is he kidding,” Buchanan asks? “Iraq was perhaps the greatest blunder in our history.” “We should have stayed out of wars that are none of our business.” But Perle does not respond; he ends the diaologe by declaring, on his own, that he and Buchanan agree on fundamentals. Pat is no longer there to reply. But the point is made. Only the loudmouth isolationist uber-conservatives think the war was wrong.
Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran are all conflated. The problem, Perle says, is the anti-democratic tendencies of Islamic countries and the terrorism those countries breed. It is all one huge threat to America, with little differentiation.
He is left free to characterize and attack “the left,” and illustrate them with pictures of movie stars and photos of his choosing. He ridicules Tim Robbins for “crazy conspiracy theories,” and then shows us Jesse Jackson. Or they are just angry anti-war protesters, as at the beginning of the film, who are contrasted with the always polite, soft-spoken Perle. Joe Lieberman was the model for that one, I suspect. But you’d never know that growing majorities of the American people believe Perle is dead wrong, that the Iraq invasion was a strategic mistake and not worth the price. You’d never know that more than half the country is very angry at his regime, and for good reason.
And what of opposition to Bush? It’s from people “blinded” by hatred, Perle tells us. How can anyone equate Bush with Saddam Hussein, when Hussein caused so many deaths? He doesn’t mention Bush’s responsibility for any deaths. Not the Americans; not the Iraqis. We don’t hear about Abu Ghraib, or Guantanamo, or Saditha.
He thinks only Ronald Reagan had the “courage to confront evil” in the Soviet Union. Oh really? What about Truman, and Eisenhower, Kennedy and Johnson, and so on? Did he miss 40 years of containment? But Perle’s point here is to equate communism with Islamic terrorism. Neocons must have an evil empire to confront, to justify their endless war, so he trots out the Soviets and Reagan at the Berlin wall and interviews some guy who was imprisoned in the old Soviet system. By now, you’ve forgotten that the title of this film was “the case for war,” which implied a defense of our Iraq invasion and occupation.
Next he meets with Richard Holbrooke, to talk about Iraq. Holbrooke hears Perle say that we can win in Iraq “if we stay,” but Holbrooke reminds him they have not achieved a single stated goal there. As in other interviews, we don’t hear Perle’s response; instead Perle says Bush/Cheney were unfairly maligned about “lying,” and Holbrooke lets him off the hook: “We were all wrong [about the intelligence], but we went to war under a false premise.” Again, the dialogue ends and we hear Perle explain how he and Holbrooke agreed on other things. It is all carefully edited.
He describes Bosnia. We are now 45 minutes into the program, and we’ve spent less than 10 seconds on the principal critique of the neocon policies, the lies, the hyped expectations, the denials and imperialist fantasies. And yet the program was billed as a defense of why it was right to go to war in Iraq. We’ve been sold another bill of goods, by the same used-war salesmen who did it before, and PBS did it for them.
In Sarajevo, we hear another interviewee explain that “we cannot allow one country to decide what happens in another.” Again, the interview ends and Perle gives his unchallenged response about why unilateral US actions are warranted.
We return to Iraq — he’s not there, he just shows pictures of violent demonstrations by those unruly Iraqis burning flags. He then returns to D.C. and presumes to lecture us on liberty and democracy while standing in front of the Jefferson Memorial. As though the issue is whether we support liberty and democracy or whether we think Jefferson was a good man. He doesn’t mention habeas corpus, or the Military Commissions Act, or torture, or the corruption and lies. This is slick propaganda.
>While Perle begins his essay talking/listening to anti-war protesters at home, he uses the next hour to make us forget everything they said, their feelings, their facts, their connections with the tens of thousands dead. To make us forget and not think about why they — why we — are angry, we get an hour of America’s destiny, an hour of pro-democracy rhetoric that ends in the Jefferson Memorial, as though the Great Democrat of the American Enlightenment, the man who eschewed foreign wars, who hated unchecked executive power, who wrote much of the Bill of Rights that Perle’s favorite and dark regime has trampled, would approve of what Perle and his friends have done to this country.
The series host, Robert MacNeil, has a few closing comments after the Perle film. He notes that some people think the neocons no longer represent conservatism. Many observers say . . . others say . . . blah, blah, blah. End of show.
How did it happen that the Public Broadcasting System, our national network, allowed itself to be used as a neocon propaganda forum? What journalistic standards were they following by allowing an extreme anti-consitutional partisan with huge credibility problems of his own, have sole control over editorial content, to decide what to show, whom to interview, what topics to cover or avoid?
Pathetic. Shame on MacNeil. Shame on PBS.
For other views, here are Newsweek and the NYT, which contains some history on the controversy surrounding PBS’ decision. And I understand C&L may have a video segment up later this morning.
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- FDL Book Salon Welcomes James K. Galbraith – The Predator State: How Conservatives Abandoned the Free Market and Why Liberals Should Too





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Good morning!
“How did it happen?”
Uh, new management? This happened a while back ….
Good morning scarecrow!
Many people in my congregation were really shocked when I told them long ago that they could not trust PBS. Since the Bush Crime Family took over the country, they installed their own political operatives into leadership of the CPB. It was never really a bastion of liberalism, but it has gone into the tank since 2001.
I’m not surprised at all that they did this. And sadly, too many “educated” people look at PBS as gospel.
Good morning Scarecrow and everyone
My only hope is that this blatant propagandizing will backfire as people who generally watch PBS have some intellegence.
Kathryn in MA @ 5
Don’t count on it.
We got some new management a while back. It’s to be expected. There really should be a law that penalizes information proven to be false if presented over the airwaves.
The amount of propaganda would go down a metric fuck ton. Like if the News publishes a story that’s false? They retract it. We should apply a tougher standard against spreading false information or information with an obvious slant that contain half truths.
Fine the fuck out of them, remove their license for broadcasting.. I don’t know. We do the same thing to corporations if they become a monopoly and don’t compete fairly.
Well, at least, we used to.
It’s a simple solution.
I was sickened and disgusted by the few minutes i saw. No more money from me and an email and letter telling them why.
Everyone else should do the same!
Why the surprise? The other half – Lehrer – is twice as bad on the so-called “News Hour”. It was a happy day for Texans when he left public station in Dallas – where he was well known for deriding programs that helped browns and blacks – and a sad day for America when he was given a national platform. McNeil, although the saner of the two, is really no better, as he has now shown.
It was Newt “Free Speech” Gingrich that was the primary force behind defunding PBS/NPR and he did a pretty good job, damn him.
My wife and I used to donate to NPR but now give our meager bucks to our local radio station and to Democracy Now.
Frankly we can neither watch or listen to 90 % of the programming they now have on. ….and if they have one more bloody religious show I will throw up.
I don’t have an issue with this, as LONG as Frontline shows a rebuttal… and they will.
I was sort of annoyed about this show also, it was interesting but not exactly balanced – as it was narrrated by Perle. At least Perle’s case was challenged in the interviews with Holbrook and the Egyptian journalist. I was also annoyed that the WaPo has a discussion with Perle yesterday, before I had a chance to see the show.
I think the best questions to ask these guys are “don’t you see that you screwed up?” “can’t you see that this is a huge and endless disaster for the country?,” stuff like that.
I’ve spent the last four years on forums and in conversations debunking every neo-con lie and talking point Perle threw out. He is STILL lying to this day. grrr
I could not finish watching the program, it was so maddening!
I stopped giving money to PBS three years ago and told them why. Nothing they have done since then makes me want to change my mind. Plus, I’m not watching, so why should I pay? PBS has outlived its usefulness. It was nice while it lasted.
I think, especially coming after that “Gangs of Iraq” Frontline, that Perle just comes across like Cheney, alone in his crazy belief that the US is going to be taken over by extremists. I love that he still says that “even Hans Blix” thought that Sadaam had WMD, when he was saying to the US, “if you know where they are, tell us so we can find them.” And the US would only say, “Oh, we know where they are, but we can’t tell you.” And then, it turned out that they didn’t know where they were.
Perle always seems to think that anyone who disagrees with him just isn’t as smart or informed as he is. He’s the Republican elitist. And the ultimate irony is that he lives in France, which was set upon in a racist and diplomatically regressive campaign by the Bush Admin to help them justify their war.
I think it’s good that this guy was given some air time because without his lame reasons for getting into this war, we wouldn’t have any reasons at all! As my Republican friend said when we conquered Iraq in the first place, “mission accomplished”, so what? What the fuck are we doing there? He’s such an unappealing character that I doubt this one-sided show helped his cause. His arguments are weak.
Who knows what corruption scandal was about to pop and forced him out of the administration. What about that? No mention.
PBS still relies on the publics financial support, I can’t imagine it’s going to be any easier to raise funds now that they’ve joined the dark side.
I do know that until there is an equally obvious retraction/appology, they’ll never get another dime from me.
I have just read Counterpunch.
Given the topic, I don’t even need to read what I expect is another in Scarecrow’s long list of fine posts. As soon as Air America Radio became available, I ditched Milquetoasty old PBS and haven’t looked back. Yes, AAR has its problems, but at least I can podcast my fave shows, which have (by and large) remained very useful and far more truthful than PBS’s, which have succumbed to “truthiness” even though Tomlinson is long gone. As AAR stations become harder to find on the air, I have tuned in more than I’d like to PBS stations, and have been appalled at (a) how little their audio “feel” has changed over the years, and (b) how much more invertebrate their politics have become. Conclusion: a big FEH upon them.
A cousin of mine works for Bill Moyers, who still has his brilliance and spotless integrity. I dearly wish that Moyers would be named head of PBS, but not in this (mal)Administration I’m sure.
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OT, suggestion for the Mods: When a new thread comes up, might it be possible (in your copious free time) to implement some hyperlinked big colorful eye-catching graphic you folx could put in the announcement post, making it quite clear when this happens — so as to facilitate us Pups in discovering the new bone to chew on? And in that same vein, perhaps add some sort of background color (faint grey?) to all posts past that point, to indicate “You are now definitely in EPU-land?” [AKA “Depuis ici, vous entrez a la sector EPU, gardez-vous!” :)] Or if it’s easier, just turn the entire topic string (faint grey?) to indicate that this string is now a “Dead Parrot?” Just a thought…
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(Pls pardon yet more OT… EPU’d)
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Feeling adventuresome? Interested in who else is in the FDL community, and where they are? Maybe get in touch with them via anonymous message?
Hope to see you on our unofficial FirePup Fan map. Pls don’t forget to pick the right pin for yourself, and to add a fun “shoutout” and maybe a pic.
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(… and now we return you to your regularly-scheduled thread…) :)
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[Modnote: We always provide an announcement there is a new thread. Folks are welcome to post on old threads until the 24 hour closing. Shorter comments about the wonderfulness of gabbly would be helpful, thanks.]
The Gang of Iraq film was a pretty fair show about how our presence there isn’t helping anything, how we have no plan, and training Iraqis to fight Iraqis just isn’t a realistic idea. Apparently, we had trained all these great soldiers and then told them to attack Fallujah, and they all said, no way, we’re not going to fire bomb our own people. So they all desserted and joined their local militias. That would seem to be a problem.
o/t — but breaking — house
judiciary committee to vote
on issuing a subpoena duces
tecum to monica goodling, at
10:15 am today. . .
yesterday’s reports had it that conyers
would also vote immunity for ms.
monica goodling — now, that part is missing
from the meeting announcement of
this morning. . .
’tis sad what’s become of pbs. . .
“new management” indeed. . .
It isn’t just PBS, it’s NPR too. I still remember NPR’s Steve Inskeep covering the election last Nov as if the GOP won. And don’t even mention Mara Liasson.
And good morning to all
Good morning everyone.
If you look at the PBS link for the series, it’s not clear at all that there will be a program sgement focused on rebutting “the case for war.” Nothing like that is listed. There are several more parts to the series, and we will likely hear many other views. But my point is that Frontline produced and edited these parts. They did not produce/edit the Perle segment. That was done by Perle’s friends, and just stuck here in the middle, as though it’s done with the same jounalistic standards as Frontline. PBS allowed itself to be used.
Then let the challenge begin here and go forth.
Spotlight, spotlight, spotlight.
And protest to your local PBS station. And LTE your local newspaper.
Now back to read comments.
Georgesimian @ 15
But he claimed to be a life-long Democrat. He had the nerve to equate Bush with JFK.
NPR likes to think it’s liberal, but it’s so focused on the Religious Right and Spiritual crap takes up half it’s show. I’ve never seen NPR ask a tough question of anyone. Even African dictators are allowed to lie about genicide without being challenged.
And my favorite part of NPR is that they have no problem telling us how great they are when it’s pledge week!
Scarecrow: Thanks for watching so I didn’t have to. I can’t handle watching these full out lie programs. Makes me want to scrap the wallpaper of my walls…Great post.
hwmnbn @ 24
When did he claim that he was a life-long Democrat? He worked for Reagan.
ot but good editorial in the WaPo today…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..inionsbox1
hwmnbn @
24
Yeah, I forgot about Perle linking to JFK — he shows the speech “bear any burden to ensure the survival of liberty” and then without shame implies that JFK would be a neocon today.
hwmnbn @ 24
That r@tf\/cking bastard! May he roast just a tad longer in eternity for that crack!!
Man, would I love to see a link to that statement…
I watched this last night, expecting the worst. I think we got exactly that. Frankly, the nightly ATC has become more frustrating than Faux News for its lack of flexible interpretation of the way the world is turning. They swallow Richard Brooks whole and conduct antagonistic interviews with anyone who dares to criticize.
The hour was unintentionally hilarious in Perle’s stolid search for someone to agree with him. His tin ear and obvious delight at repeating his lies sounded more like satire by Monty Python or Christopher Guest. As clever as the editing work was, it was hard to ignore how little Perle has learned in a lifetime of “public service”. That has to be partly attributed to his lack of hearing what others are telling him. Over and over, he assumed collegiality and agreement with his “interviews” on simplistic untruths, and gross errors of history. I cringed every time he used the “Of course, we agree on [another whole cloth constructed of lies and talking points]. In the few cases where we were allowed to hear the reply, it was usually directly contradicting Perle’s point! I think Holbrook, in particular, looked like he was speaking to a dangerous idiot.
I was most upset by the portrayal of the protesters at the start. By selectively editing, the film focused on the emotional elements of their anger and avoided the challenges to the neo-con world view and the lies used to make that world view “legitimate. At the end, Perle got the old “wars are lost at home” argument out there.
His use of Kennedy’s inaugural was also upsetting–of course, he ignored the historical context for that speech AND how Kennedy ultimately was proven totally wrong by history on the American role in nation-building.
OT: Emptywheel’s autographed book is up to $33.50 on ebay…..
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA…..1&rd=1
Good morning everyone. Watt4Bob @5:34 mentioned PBS’ dependence on public financial support. Does anyone know how public fundraising has been affected the last few years? I don’t live in the US now, but I remember that PBS used to hold regular big fundraising drives (to which I donated). Do they still do that? I wonder if there’s been a significant drop in donations?
Frequently, here on Minnesota Public Radio, Newt or Kristol will get a couple minuets of free time to spew their BS. Though in general I would say that MPR is better than it’s national parent. Not a lot though.
Also, I no longer pledge money for NPR. I got my last NPR bag a year ago and now I shut it off on pledge week and listen to Janis Joplin instead. Love her live song “Maybe”.
tsmclain — thanks for the comments; you and I watched the same show and had the same reactions. I think your insight about Perle’s inability to really hear is dead on.
diane @
8
No, that’s EXACTLY what they want you to do. They’ve been trying to kill off PBS for years and your advocated “starve the beast” approach would do their bidding.
I’d rather give PBS for specific programs while pointedly communicating that certain shows are not acceptable. Make a donation to your local station earmarked for Bill Moyers — and then call the station and tell them this Perle bit stunk to high heaven.
FirePups — if you want to send others a rebuttal and offer an example of balanced reporting as well as Perle displaying his gross treachery and ignorance, you need only point to the 2003 Frontline program, Kim’s Nuclear Gamble. In the Interviews section, Perle goes on about discussions with NK being tantamount to negotiating with a terrorist, while Albright and Holbrooke look reasoned and rational about diplomacy being most effective. That’s it, right there, in a nutshell; Perle advocates a failed approach of radical isolationism or preemptive warfare, while saner intellects advocating diplomacy have been proven correct and successful.
Why we give Richard Perle one moment of our eyeball time is beyond me; if anything, we should be beating on Frontline’s door to do an expose into the Conrad Black story, including a detailed examination of Richard Perle’s role. Now THAT would be balanced.
noen @ 34
Hey, I’d pay to see that! More likely, just to HEAR it!
(my bold)
(pardon typo weasel) :) :)
tsmclain @ 31
Maybe for you but for most people I think that passed by them. Most people are not policy wonks and are not tuned into these things every day. The more intelligent ones might watch PBS once on the weekend.
Georgesimian @ 27
Perle got his start in Henry “Scoop” Jackson’s office.
Jackson was one of the most hawkish Dems ever in the Senate (partly because he was in Boeing’s pocket).
Perle, therefore, maintains this fiction, even though he is a neo-con, through and through.
Rayne — I agree with your comments, including the recommendation about how to support PBS doing the right thing, while pushing them to do better.
It’s amazing how anyone who ever touched the Bush Administration is or has been under investigation for corruption or wrong doing. From Ken Lay to Abramoff to Mr Perle.
From Wiki…
and this too…
OT for sure.
Don’t know if this has been linked to yet, but no matter, since it is worth repeating.
A profile of the victims at VT. Impossible to read with a dry eye.
Profiles of the VT Victims
I couldn’t watch and wouldn’t have if I could have because I feared exactly this.
Remember, in the Pew polling a few days ago watchers of the NewsHour came in BEHIND those who watch the “fake news” of Colbert and Stewart in their knowledge of current events–it isn’t surprising given the slimy erosion of PBS.
This is great we need more Americans to see this film even the average Fox Viewer knows that Perle was WRONG! UTTERLY and COMPLETELY WRONG! I want the American people to focus AGAIN and AGAIN on just HOW wrong this guy was! The problem with this war is no draft, no sacrifice no cost so who cares! Still I’m betting even Fox Viewers don’t like being reminded they fell for a lie, a bad lie, a really really STUPID lie!
PBS = Propaganda B*ll Sh*t
NPR = National Propaganda Radio
One thing I won’t suggest is cutting donations. The WH crowd would love nothing better than to destroy these two once-exemplary media. They’ll need funds to put restore the integrity and quality they had before Bush.
Another piece of the whole. Bush’s contempt for America and democracy is like an apple rotting from the core…
A corollary example…the DOJ. Even setting aside the current USAs web of scandal and deceit, the person he nominated to the US Civil Rights Commission from ND was a local political gadfly, ex stripper, and nudist camp advocate on local talk radio.
His contempt for everything American is beyond belief. He corrupts everything he touches.
Scarecrow @ 41
I don’t. I don’t think you should reward programming you find unacceptable. The only way it will ever sink through PBS’s or NPR’s thick skulls is if people start voting with their feet. It’s all they understand.
things come undone @ 45
Actually, that inspires a concept — what if somebody did a MST3K-like editorial over the top of Perle’s lie-fest last night, and then posted it to YouTube?
God, what I wouldn’t give to hear Tom Servo and Crow stick a sharp, verbal shiv in Perle’s rib cage…
Can we get on the fact that the RNC is refusing to hand over emails? They say that Bush’s lawyers have to look them over first. WTF?
PBS has been under criticism for its leftward leaning tendencies. This is obviously in correction to that.
I applaud PBS for airing the series. I strongly believe an alternative viewpoint should be presented so that everyone can come to a better understanding of what is right and what is wrong.
As for Perle
[Edited by moderator. No advocating violence against other people. Period. Am I clear?]
Georgesimian @ 27
I know that. His statement caused such a reaction from me it is still fresh in my mind. I went to the program website but could not find a transcript. He definitely said it.
Prairie Sunshine @ 46
Nope, they have enough money to do their job. They lack the will or the talent to. They still think in the old “I am the priest of information here to give you the holy word.” That is their model of news. It’s BS. I will never, ever give to NPR again.
noen @ 47
Um, that’s why I said MAKE A DONATION TO YOUR LOCAL STATION AND EARMARK IT FOR BILL MOYERS.
If we don’t support PBS at all, then programming like Sesame Street, Rick Steves’ Europe, This Old House are at risk, too. These programs won’t survive in the commercial world or they’d already be there; don’t kids whose families can’t afford cable deserve good childrens’ programming, too?
noen @ 47
Like many other institutions, the Corporation for Public Broadcasting has been undermined by the political cronies appointed by the Bush Administration. The conservatives always hated PBS programs like NewsHour and Frontline, and Bill Moyer’s programs, because they weren’t like Fox News. The chairman, Tomlinson, resigned under fire, but it is still not right.
Like every other institution that should be performing in the public interest, we need to recapture PBS and NPR and return them to their original missions. Starving them, which is what Republican congresses tried to do, does not seem to be a good idea.
The segment was titled: “The Case For War,” not “The Case Against War.”
What on Earth did you expect?
Now we have seen their “case,” and we move on to the rest of the series. A 5 part series has just that, 5 parts.
Georgesimian @ 42
Or dead. Or undead, but in a good way: Playing possum at some undisclosed location, some say.
Scarecrow @ 41
This may be heresy, but I say let `em die.
They don’t report the truth. Neither NPR nor PBS has any real investigative reporting left. Even Frontline is a shadow of what it was two decades ago, because its producers are afraid of offending the mighty `pugs.
Your complaints about this Perle-produced piece of propaganda are spot-on. So, why does PBS deserve money to support this sort of dreck? In fact, your donations support exactly this sort of garbage.
Moyers is only on because his production costs are supplied by a foundation wholly independent of PBS. If that weren’t the case, you’d never see or hear of Moyers, ever. PBS won’t fund Moyers on their own. What does that say about them?
CPB was corrupted by corporations three decades ago. CPB has been further corrupted by partisan politics. Who pays for the Nightly News Hour? Archer-Daniels-Midland, price-fixers to the world. The only public nightly televised news program in the country is funded by corporate felons. What does that say?
I say let `em die. Something better may rise up out of the ashes.
Georgesimian @ 49
Sure, but you might want to point out that it’s Off Topic of the thread, first.
And frankly, somebody needs to send a message to the House and Senate Judiciary Committees that this is utter crap that the White House has to review the emails — if the White House sent or received emails from any RNC domain, they already have a copy in their archives to review.
Too f*cking bad, subpoena the whole server farm.
By the way, doesn’t anybody else think it’s rather odd that the Blackberry network went completely offline today?? I find that much more disturbing…
Rayne @ 53
While I suppose that they tell you that you can ermark money for particular shows it would not surprize me if they ignored that.
I am not responsible for other people.
Let’s hope Senator Rockefeller has a different show in store for us. When are we going to see Phase II?
noen @ 58
So basically you don’t support Medicare or Social Security or federal income taxes?
Georgesimian @ 49
Hey, it just occurred to me… If there’s five MILLION missing emails and they’re all mirabile dictu found on some frab-a-licious day, how long will it take Fred Fielding to read, ponder, redact and release them all? Hmm
I estimate they’ll ship by December 3, 2051, Yep them’s my figgers and I’m stickin to em.
Jon Steward and Kieth Oberman could just take this film apart and show clips of Pearle saying something about the Iraq war and then pointing out how off base Pearle was in his predictions years later. Then to embarras PBS we could start a telethon for people to send in money if they want to keep such bad TV off the air! ” PBS needs to raise 10 million dollars or we will be forced to show this program again IN QUADROPHONIC SURROUND SOUND, AND 3-D! Please send the money now before we embarras ourselves any further! ” We need reporters to ask that new WH Press Secretary if she has seen this film and would she care to comment on it. If we get her to say “No Comment ” about the film we should open with ” the White House has No Comment on the Richard Perle film! ” That should teach him a lesson for all th Creative Editing for Truth! that occured in his film.
S.O.S. from MA @ 18
you mean an ex-parrot? (dont get me started). a great idea. but folks should know that there is some fine commenting still going on in EPU land (hence EPU’s now famous moniker).
Scarecrow, this is a very enlightening expose. Apparently we’re ALL under new management with neocon moles on once balanced news boards. Look at the change at even the Washington Post editorial board. It will take a political tsunami to untrench the liars. The sad story of conspiracy and fraud continues until we harangue and pressure for truth telling. Apparently these folks like McNeil were born without backbones.
Just emailed PBS’s Ombudsman. The following was my message:
PBS’s integrity has been compromised by allowing Richard Perle a platform to continue to further well-known lies with regard to the occupation in Iraq. Thanks for caving. It won’t soon be forgotten.
montag @ 57
I agree. Corporations have turned radio and broadcast TV into howling wastelands. Cable is less so if you spring for HBO. Thinking people and people who actually read have moved enmasse to the blogosphere. For good reason.
No, institutions only understand pain, financial pain. Nothing else moves them.
Rayne @
48
I like the idea but don’t have the skills.
I’m half way through the “gangs of Iraq”. Must see TV, especially the parts about Petraeus and the interior ministry.
kdh22 @ 66
And that will be promptly filed in the circular file. Money is all any corp understands.
S.O.S. from MA @ 61
When they get turned over to the Judiciary Committee(s), that’s when the Committees should do some serious crunching and get them posted to the internet for bloggers to read.
We made short work of the first 3000 pages, many of which were duplicates.
What is needed — and techies out here in the toobz should now be discussing this — is a scanning, coding/tagging and comparison process that distills the 5 million to their fewest common denominators. Of the first 3000 pages dumped, for example, we may have seen the same email sent by Sampson to a distribution list — and every one of the received copies was produced, including the one Sampson sent. We don’t need but the one Sampson sent. We only need the subsequent replies, threaded in such a way that they lead back to the original email by Sampson. I estimate on an off-the-cuff basis that we’re talking about reducing the mess by nearly 2/3’s if we can weed out duplication.
(Maybe I need to start a thread at DailyKos on this to get the techies rolling…)
It’s true – we are living in the lyrics of a Zappa song about television
. . . have existed for years
But very little had changed
I am the tool of the government
And industry too
For i am destined to rule
And regulate you . . .
noen @ 66
I don’t understand this logic. Should we disband the Department of Justice because of Gonzales? Or should we remove the corrupt leadership, clean house, and restore the Department’s integrity? I think the Bush Administration would like nothing better than for the American people to conclude that public institutions do not deserve respect or support — and thus to avoid responsibility for when those institutions fail to earn our respect.
noen @ 70
Yeah I know, but it made me feel better.
OT, but I couldn’t resist — I just saw an ad for The Politico over at the Carpetbagger Report, and I am highly amused. The graphic is of a man with a megaphone, and the slogan is “Speak to Power: The Politico”.
Note that it doesn’t say “Speak Truth to Power.” Well, at least they’re being honest about what they are for once.
raven @ 68
yes, that show was very revealing.
Voting with you feet only makes sense when there’s another destination.
Rayne—
You are a national treasure. Yes please do set up a kos thread on this. Anything we can do to help you let us know. We are humbled by your prodigious energy and accomplishments.
————egregious
I used to belong to both of the NPR stations in my hometown. I decided some time ago that I will never give to NPR or PBS again.
Rayne @ 61
No, I just simplified my position because this is a comments section. Of course, a society that cares for others is what I strongly believe in. But we do live in a capitalistic money system. If you don’t agree with a corporation you shouldn’t support it with your money. That’s all.
Georgesimian @
49
Criminal Conspircy RICO if the RNC has to check with the WH then we can subpenoa the RNC emails about a lot of other subjects. We can bankrupt these guys just with the vote suppression lawsuits never mind what else we might find. How many GOP rising stars could be destroyed by emails the secretaries sent about their married hook ups?
noen @ 69
If that was the case, why did all the cable networks chase Fux News for five years? Chasing the market segment Fux served left a much larger market segment underserved.
I think that’s why NBC has finally decided to shift its gears a bit (and maybe it has something to do with emails I sent to Dan Abrams pointing out that a much larger market was being ignored, if they were really about making money). But it took NBC five long, agonizing years to turn around even this small amount — which tells me that they are not about making a profit, but about that for which Jack Welch originally bought NBC. NBC is a mouthpiece to represent NBC’s legislative and tax agendas, not about making a profit.
I refuse to give up on PBS or NPR because they are supposed to be OURS. And I want them the f*ck BACK. Attack! ATTACK!! AAATTTAAACCCKKK!!!
Georgesimian @ 49
you are so right. this is completely unjustifiable. someone needs a subpoena smack upside the head. the RNC is not a government entity. it is not an arm of the White House. It is a legal entity unto itself. where are the FBI agents? what are we waiting for, more delete, delete, delete?
Scarecrow says
DOJ is not anywhere near the same as PBS. It’s a ridiculous comparison.
OT: TiredFed @ 63
Tnx Tiredfed. I’ve been there and seen some of those great comments with me own eyes. (Even made my own, said he patting hisself on the back) … But then I notice that the comments are becoming fewer… and fewer… … till finally I realize that “the crowd’s moved on” to the next thread. Sometimes I’m so transfixed with the repartee in topic N that I’ve missed topic N-plus-1 completely and all the ‘Pups are gnawing on N-plus-2!! Now that’s embarrassing… :) Part of the fun of commenting is when ya know that the community is reading and thinking about the topic at hand…
So that’s why I sketched some possible ways how we might detect when we’re dealing with a Topic that has “Joined the Choir Invisibule” :) As they say.
(… and now we return you to your regularly-scheduled thread, now in progress …) :)
[Modnote from above in case you missed it: We always provide an announcement there is a new thread. Folks are welcome to post on old threads until the 24 hour closing. Shorter comments about the wonderfulness of gabbly would be helpful, thanks.]
things come undone @ 62
Bill Moyers had talked about working to set up an endowment for public broadcasting, so that PBS and NPR would have independent funding and would no longer be subject to the whims of Congressional politics. I don’t know whatever happened to that project, but I think this would be an excellent fundraiser for it!
egregious @ 77
Why thanks, egregious!! And what are you up to? You’re awfully quiet!! What’s brewing?
Excuse my ignorance, but which Congressional committees have oversight of PBS?
Mack @ 77
There is. Here we are.
noen @ 83
Putting it in the generic category of “corporation” is an equally ridiculous comparison.
Scarecrow @ 72
If those institutions–specifically CPB–take the public’s money (in taxes and contributions) and do not do truthful reporting in return, and are dependent upon the influences of corrupt corporations, then, no, they do not deserve any support.
You’re suggesting some direct comparison of Justice and CPB, and it’s a false analogy. Right now, all CPB programming is “brought to you” by corporate money. Justice might be, too, but, at least they aren’t making it 20% of their public visibility.
Look, here it is, plainly and simply. These fuckers are taking your money and then lying to you. You just said so in your post above, and then you’re exhorting people to support them.
It’s like asking Russians in the `70s to contribute to Pravda.
It doesn’t compute. CPB is hopelessly corrupted. You aren’t going to fix the problem by giving them money to continue the same corruption.
diane @ 8
Even better for the loyal Bushies who will be only to happy to offset drop in liberals’ contributions with increases in wingnuts’ contribution.
APRIL 17–The college student responsible for yesterday’s Virginia Tech slaughter was referred last year to counseling after professors became concerned about the violent nature of his writings, as evidenced in a one-act play obtained by The Smoking Gun. The play by Cho Seung-Hui, a 23-year-old English major, was submitted last year as part of a short story writing class. Entitled “Richard McBeef”
snip
One act play at the link.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/a…..tech1.html
montag @ 90
So you’re advocating abandoning or destroying all corrupted government functions?
Isn’t that what Grover Norquist advocated, sans the bathtub or the messy drowning bit?
Rayne @ 82
I’m a little confused. Are you saying that you think because you sent some e-mails to NBC they changed direction?
None of the media giants changed because of any emails they received. They changed, if they have, because they see their audience leaving in droves. That is the only pressure that has ever moved them and it is the only pressure that will ever move PBS.
noen @ 88
so true. spread the word.
I watched this program last night. I watched the gangs of IRAQ first. I thought it was excellent. Sometimes when even if you disagree with someone, its good perspective to have them explain their logic.
I don’t think its bad the PBS put on a program that mandates that viewers listen to a point of view and make up their own mind based on the facts that they now. Would the show have been better if Perle critics immedialty got a chance to react to everything he said so the viewers don’t have to do any thinking.
I don’t understand how some of you are saying to just give up on PBS. As I said above, I’m no longer in the US, but I grew up with PBS and I have so many memories of programs that to this day still mean so much to me. How can you just say, “Let them die!”?
I support my local NPR station and will continue to do so as there aren’t many alternatives available where I live. They have provided valuable services to this region for many years. You have a choice of turning off programs you don’t care for.
As to Richard Perle, was there any doubt as to what was going to be said. Of course he was going to spew his points. I suspect this project got started under the asshole Bush appointed to control the PBS, fat old Kenneth what’s-his-name.
Frontline has done some remarkable work over the years and I believe will continue to do so. You want a change in the governing board then get rid to dicks in charge by making sure it is a Democratic President that does the next appointing.
Redshift @ 90
PBS actually is a corporation. It is incorporated isn’t it? DOJ is not.
DOJ does not have subscribers, it doesn’t have a “market” or an audience nor should it. PBS has all these things.
reading scarecrow’s post got me really pissed. good thing i didn’t actually turn on the TV last night to see the prince of darkness.
and as if that wasn’t enough….
have you been following the intelligence bill fiasco? i have not been giving it enough attention.
from the nyt:
excellent dkos diary:
from senator reid:
OfT –
CNN reporting 127 killed, 94 wounded in a coordinated series of attacks – in Baghdad.
Mr. McCain, I believe the floor is yours.
Rayne @ 70
Excellently expressed. Puts the total lie to the ridiculous proposition that one person is gonna screen all five million of the (putatively found) emails.
The data mining approach, with appropriate tracing heuristics, is imho a terrific idea. If the entire corpus of (putatively found) emails cannot be made public for national security reasons – the same reasons we unquestioningly accepted the “unlistenability” of those parts of the WH 18.5-minute-gap tape that were temporally and physically removed from the “evidence area” – then at least the data mining algorithms need to be open sourced. Again, analogously to the way that we, back in the day, had to make all our scientific data and the converging operations that led to our conclusions, available in a public report. And backed it up in sworn testimony.
I think we need to look at PBS and NPR for where they’re moving, not just where they are, and keep in mind the production time lag from the elections (and that even with the ‘06 elections, the White House is still appointing people to run them.) This turkey was started under the evil Tomlinson, and MacNeil was brought in to put lipstick on the pig. But they’re bringing back Bill Moyers, and there are other signs of life.
If we want them to be free of nefarious political influence, we need to use our newfound power to permanently fix the problems that made them vulnerable, like the perpetual conservative attempts to “defund” them.
127 killed in Baghdad
I don’t watch PBS anymore, and I only listen to NPR for “Car Talk.” Needless to say, I have stopped contributing financially to either entity. When we take the WH back and purge all the right-wingers from our government posts, I will consider supporting NPR and PBS again.
Rayne @ 93
No, that’s a diversion. Grover Norquist advocates killing all government regulation for the sake of allowing corrupt corps completely unregulated operation and control of government.
That’s what corporate America is gradually achieving through the corruption of entities such as CPB.
Public broadcasting was an idea with promise which was quickly corrupted–by conservatives, for conservatives.
The mere fact that a program such as this appeared on PBS is ample example of how well they’ve succeeded.
Public broadcasting has been corrupted. Look up the goddamned definition of “corrupt,” and then tell me they haven’t been.
Rayne @ 82
Yeah no more strings attached grants for PBS from corporations Support PBS give them Government funds if the GOP don’t like it we accuse them of being antifamily.
Rayne—
Me quiet? Hilarious. I’m heading on home after trip #30, with our 11 year anniversary coming up. All patients in the ICU alive and slowly progressing.
Personally I tried to prepare extra hard for this trip to make sure I could stay even emotionally and not have my customary meltdowns. A success, and something to continue to monitor in the future.
Medically, we are saving a lot of lives and continuing to train people from across eastern Europe and Asia to become congenital surgeons. Hope to have the multiplicative thingie going.
In our hospital we demoted one very senior person who was damaging patients and promoted two other people to step up and take more responsibility. Additional personnel actions are being considered. This is life and death and there is no room for ego, or excuses, or sloppiness, or working while impaired by alcohol.
One interesting patient family has as the father a man who is a cabinet minister in a country I may not name but where they are going thru turmoil. He is arguing to have his child’s surgery soon so he can go back and participate in what’s happening politically. We almost never change the surgical rotation because of anything non-medical but that’s pretty compelling.
As for me, I just finished a spa day in London and am heading back to VA tomorrow. egrKids do not know any of the VT victims but not everyone has been named yet. The grief cuts a swath across the whole community, our high school sends about 100 a year down to Tech.
WE MUST WORK ON MENTAL ILLNESS ISSUES. Excuse the shouting. It’s my non-Russia work for now. Much to be done.
noen @ 94
Um, if they saw audience moving away in droves as a cue to change programming, then they also saw that key demographics LEFT TELEVISION VIEWING altogether — and yet they did virtually NOTHING for more than five years.
They also saw key demographics did NOT go to Fux News.
Kind of shoots your profit motive theory in the keister.
It ain’t about profits.
O/T but there was a story about how they took the computers of the VT shooter to the FBI lab on NPR (maybe not so off-topic, then). They went into some detail to say that the lab will be able to recover tons of stuff from those computers, even stuff that’s been deleted.
So, I guess when someone thinks it’s important enough, you can find missing emails and stuff. Personally, I don’t think you even need to go that far with the WH or DOJ. They have them. They just won’t turn them over.
Welp, PBS just lost whatever chance they had of ever seeing another nickel from me.
I wonder if anyone’s running the ship there, any more?
Rayne @ 94
No, I simply do not wish to support this one.
Not really the same thing. Norquist wants to defund depts at the government level.
Let me give you an example. Here in Minn we have NPR. We get a constant diet of suburan drivel. I see no programming that reflects me or my life. What I do see are programs that address issues of concern to white, middleclass suburbanites. I see nothing by or for the poor, minorities or the GLBT community. Nothing. Why should I support them, why should I give them my money?
AZ Matt @ 99
I’m not opposed to opposing opinion. But,it was fairly evident that PBS gave Perle carte blanche for the entire segment. That is not the fair, balanced and truthful PBS that I have come to expect. It’s disappointing, and that’s what I was trying to convey. As Noen commented, my message will be promptly filed in the appropriate receptacle.
S.O.S. from MA @ 102
Excellently expressed. Puts the total lie to the ridiculous proposition that one person is gonna screen all five million of the (putatively found) emails.
The data mining approach, with appropriate tracing heuristics, is imho a terrific idea. If the entire corpus of (putatively found) emails cannot be made public for national security reasons – the same reasons we unquestioningly accepted the “unlistenability” of those parts of the WH 18.5-minute-gap tape that were temporally and physically removed from the “evidence area” – then at least the data mining algorithms need to be open sourced. Again, analogously to the way that we, back in the day, had to make all our scientific data and the converging operations that led to our conclusions, available in a public report. And backed it up in sworn testimony.
I think they’ve completely undone the argument that there was anything sensitive to national security in those emails — because doing so opens them up to prosecution for violations of national security, up to and including treason.
Maybe that’s the hammer we use: “What, did you violate national security with RNC email? No? then turn them over. NOW.”
noen @ 99
I didn’t say it was incorrect to call it a corporation, I said it was ridiculous to pretend that a government-chartered corporation is just like any other, as in “Money is all any corp understands.”
“Any corp” doesn’t have a board appointed by our elected representatives, so declaring that the only way to influence CPB is the same way as “any corp” is indeed ridiculous.
PBS has its pseudo-commercials and major corporate sponsors because conservatives fought to push it toward being like a profit-making corporation, which is as stupid as doing the same thing with Amtrak. I’m in favor of pushing it back, not just giving in to them and saying it’s hopeless.
Rayne @ 110
You are right about that Rayne. It is about ideology. That doesn’t seem to help your postion. It would seem to me that if it is really all about ideology then therre is even less of an incentive for me to contribute my money. Even if it is earmarked it will have little to no effect.
noen @ 112
Then you have a highly localized problem. In spite of living in what my African-American friends call “Mississippi North” here in Michigan, I have NPR and PBS programming that includes African-American, LGBT, Hispanic and other minority communities. If we’re light on any programming, it’s about Asians, but I’ve lived all my life in the 10% or less zone, can accept that here since I’m not in a heavily Asian community.
Perhaps that is incredibly important to point out here: your experience of PBS and NPR may be extremely different depending on your local broadcasting outlet. And it changes completely how you should respond to this situation.
egregious @ 108
Whassamatta U., you couln’t blog from faraway? You have a professional life?? :)
Funny, I guess it’s not true that great surgeons are born, not made. You gots to train ‘em I see. In your field, that’s probably not a joke original w/me, sorry… :)
egregious, you have the respect of many FDLers. Your work expresses the highest ideals of our common humanity. Strength to you.
while trying to save pbs… i think it still makes sense to follow up on what evidence/testimony sibel edmonds has on perle.
from former CIA officer phil giraldi via lukery at dkos :
i know waxman is busy, but perle is still capable of doing tremendous damage.
SOS—thanks eh? Nice Bullwinkle reference. And I DO blog from far away, my most recent which is available by clicking the above name was composed and posted from Russia. I’m writing to you from London. So giving me grief about not blogging while overseas? Nice try :)
Great congenital surgeons born not made LOL!
noen @ 116
Um, we were just discussing corporate-owned CABLE. You don’t want to support them, don’t buy it.
But PUBLICLY-OWNED broadcasting is OURS. I refuse to be a victim and cede this PUBLIC asset to a MINORITY of relatively well-to-do and primarily white Christian neo-conservatives.
Jeepers, what happened to fighting for one’s rights?
TYPO:
It’s ROBERT MACNEIL, not James.
CONTENT:
This was part five of a series of “eleven independently produced documentaries” — not, in other words, PBS or CPB productions. This isn’t a Ken Burns style, eleven part miniseries — it’s a film festival, if you will, about this war we’re in.
I haven’t seen any of them yet, including this one, but Friday evening includes “Security vs. Liberty: The Other War.” It looks like it might be a very different take.
Rayne @ 114
Oh, I freakin LOVE you!!! That is such a fine point, and I don’t mean “fine” in the sense of “trivial.” I mean “fine” as in “I hope that they have to SIT on it and ROTATE.”
Rayne @ 110
somebody changed their minds it might have been Rayne, or maybe somebody at GE knows how to make a profit without a fat government contract or huge economies of scale and low future devlopement costs! No that can’t be right those guys pride themselves on corporate welfare, er I meant business savy and efficency. The Nuke Regulatory Commision and GE were playing together alot of games after 3 mile island lots of plants with approval were forced by the NRC to buy lots of new parts. Lots of nuke builders went bankrupt and the Utility indusrty stopped building. Was GE having money trouble then? Inside word is it wasn’t the enviromentalists it was the NRC, but the NRC seemed to be helping GE at the time?
Dear Mr Perle,
cc: John McCain
cc: Bush/Cheney
cc: RNC
Another carbomb in Iraq just went off in a crowded marketplace. More than 80 people killed. Why are we there again? Sadaam had WMDs?
Georgesimian @ 49
i actually posted on this, just last
night — i think, just like the
monica goodling subpoena vote, scheduled
for 10:15 am this morning — there
will soon be a subpeona served on the
r.n.c proper — and they, like gonzales,
and monica goodling and kyle sampson, before
them, will not risk contempt of congress.
but i agree — let’s get a subpoena out;
all sen. leahy or rep. conyers need do, as
i understand it, is sign one — as each of
the committees they chair voted authority
for ‘em, previously. . .
so — let’s light ‘em up!
Redshift @ 116
I could go with that. Just not on my dime. They have my money by way of taxes anyway. But frankly, I think this is a pipe dream. The right isn’t going to disappear or return to minority status. They are going to remain a strong opposition party for a long time. So I don’t see much hope in “reclaiming” anything much less PBS. The political situation is going to be pretty much like it is now for the foreseeable future,
nolo @
20
Raw Story:
Democrats delay major moves in two House investigations of Bush officials
Scarecrow: Thank you for sitting through this so we don’t have to. I have been angry about so many things these last few years but such anger turns white-hot when I think of how, even now, EVEN NOW, the media continues to whore themselves out over and over again to the tragedy that has the neocon domination over foreign policy. People like Richard Perle and William Kristol, who have been COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY DISCREDITED still get megaphones. And on PBS. With my money.
This is why I no longer donate to PBS. I don’t give to the republican party.
Peterr @ 6:46: You mean the Robert MacNeil who gave us the fabulous “Story of English”?! :(
Rayne @ 122
The right has rights too. It is their PBS too. They have an equal right to have their views represented also.
PBS or NPR are not “ours”.
Peterr @ 123
It is, indeed, an assortment of films, some of which are neoconservative propaganda. There’s a mixed-to-negative review of this series at Salon.
Still, any Perle is an effrontery, and an unpleasant reminder of the neoconservative stranglehold on the major media and related institutions like think tanks and foreign policy schools.
If you watched the show and it bothered you to hear the Perle argue FOR THE WAR IN IRAQ, a pro-war propaganda piece on PBS, write the show and tell them:
America at a Crossroads – Contact US
Rayne @ 121
It’s disappointing that some don’t see the parallels between what has happened to PBS and the efforts to discredit government agencies that are supposed to function in the public interest. We have to reclaim all of them, including PBS, and not let the right destroy them all.
selise @ 119
Do you have a DailyKos ID? Maybe you should post a diary on this angle, just to keep it fresh in the progressive consciousness; you can lead in with an overview of Scarecrow’s post, and then add your comment to flesh it out.
I think Waxman is trying to knock a couple of legs out from underneath the White House and OVP before he heads after other lines of inquiry — call it the “low hanging fruit” approach. Suddenly “losing” 5 million emails is so blatantly bad that the magnitude can more readily saturate the consciousness of the public; I think in this respect that this is an effective tack that softens the ground before Waxman gets to the really nasty stuff.
We also don’t have enough insight into how deep the rot goes in DOJ; there will be challenges to building an effective case against Perle, Feith et al if the problem isn’t clarified. I guess while I have been waiting for more than 3 years for Rove and Perle and their ilk to be frogmarched, I can wait a bit longer if the entire edifice can be brought down via another route. We’re already tapping on the White House’ door with the missing emails, after all.
Case in point. Lisening to Ben Stein on NPR right now.
Where is my voice?
America at a Crossroads started as a grant program from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. They asked for film makers to submit proposals for films discussing changes in America from the effects of 9/11. The following link leads to the result. http://www.pbs.org/weta/crossroads/about/
I attended an event hosted by CPB discussing the grant application and intent of the program in San Fransico in 2004. The room at the Presidio was filled with film makers plexing about our Country’s changes from the events of 9/11. When I read this post and went to the CPB page on the grant I was amazed at how the programing chosen represents not a single idea I heard about or discussed with other filmmakers at the grant opening.
The changes Bush made to the Boards of CPB and PBS are basically the same types of changes he’s made at Justice. I suspect no department in his Government has escaped being gutted and staffed anew with his sycophants.
Jesus B. Ochoa @
9
Oooh! Got links/details?
noen @ 132
They may be entitled to their opinions.
But they are not entitled to their own facts.
And they still have to share the airwaves if they belong to the public.
An important aside on the issue of what motivates TV corporations. It’s not all about profits or viewership. We must not forget that individuals & entities frequently make very important decisions & pursue behaviors that are contrary to their own self-interests. I have just started reading Tuchman’s The March of Folly-From Troy to Vietnam, in which she talks about such actions in the context of countries’ foreign policies. Folly is defined as doing something against one’s own self-interest, but in selecting her examples, she adds the criterion that all information needed to avoid the wrong decision was available in advance. It’s good that she passed away long before Iraq; I can’t imagine how deep her despair would be.
Back to PBS & large corporate TV. It’s pretty clear they’ve made decsions & pursued paths that are not in the interest of their own survival. One can speculate as to the cause, like panic after 9/11, or imitating Faux’s initial success. But I just want to point out that trying to squeeze every action into the straightjacket of profit motive leaves out the huge swath of individual & group human behavior that is irrational.
S.O.S. from MA @ 124
generally, i like the sentiment, but
the white house is actually asserting
executive privilege on this one, NOT
national security. of course, the claim
of executive privilege is just horsesh*t,
of another hue — that is, less color-
fully — it is also baseless.
the party — the r.n.c. — cannot assert
an “executive” privilege, for it is not
part of the executive branch — (yet).
a specious loser — but worth some delay.
this needs to be a talking point:
“no privilege for the non-executive.”
jsut my $0.02. . .
noen @ 137
Dude, are you even really listening? Ben Stein is advocating TAXING THE RICH in that bit, in order to pay for our troops.
That’s the second time in six months that Ben Stein has begged us to take his money.
I actually listened to that bit this morning.
Morning all — great post, scarecrow. Am sitting here sipping my coffee, listening to our dachshund snore in her blanket (being an old dog is hard this morning), and wondering whether Richard Perle will ever go away. And, unfortunately, the answer I keep coming up with is “sadly, no.” SIGH
Peterr @ 122
Thanks Peterr for the Robert typo. I fixed that. And your description of the purpose of the series is helpful. I listened to the introductions and that wasn’t clear.
GeorgeSimian @ 126
If I could smoke what these guys are smoking and still be able to sleep at night, still retain some semblance of a soul, I swear to god, I’d like some of the same since I can’t bear this anymore. It is better to live in a fantasy world than to see and fully comprehend what they have wrought with the help of my tax dollars.
Morning, Christy; no, you’re probably right, Perle will keep coming back like a vampire without a stake in his heart.
Rayne @ 141
All true Rayne.
I suspect that we are not that far apart really. I just think the prospects for reforming PBS are dim. I really like the foundation idea, the more PBS can be insulated from the politics of the day the better.
egregious @ 120
I know what you mean. Whoever it was that said “FDL is ‘truth crack’” was too right.
I’ve blogged from all over the world, including Oz, eh? Most recently, on Libby Verdict Day, I heard about it on BBC World in my vaca hotel room in Santiago Chile and hied meself to the Biz Center where they had freebies broadband Internet. FDL was its usual mega-informative self; even the FDL Gabbly chat was almost as quick as it is from MA.
Shouldn’t surprise I guess, the PupPlanet is now virtual; the chat normally includes ppl from coast to coast.
And the FDL map shows PupPins from as far away as Hawaii, Alaska, Northern Ireland, Berlin and Japan.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 129
thanks.
good one. note that the subpeona vote
is still scheduled for this morning, in
monica goodling’s case — keep the pressure
on her. . .
Rayne at 144 — When Ben Stein starts talking sense, isn’t that one of the four horses of the apocolypse? *g*
Raw Story says that the votes for Goodling immunity and Rice subpeona have been put off for a few days. May be having problems getting 2/3s vote for immunity which would need repugs voting with the dems.
OT Senate currently voting in Senate (caspan1) on negotiating drug prices for medicare. I’m going to write every f*cking Rethug who votes against and remind them who actually pays their salaries, which is ME, not the goddam drug companies. I’m thinking about offering them $5 if they will please change their vote next time along with a letter begging them to next time, ask their constituence for money and not the drug companies, and curse their hides for being cheap whores! I’ve had it.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 129
NNNNOOOOOOOOOO! What are they talking about? “…best way to get the facts to the public.” Give me a break! Don’t listen to this crap anymore!
Jesus B. Ochoa @
9
You’re thinking of Robert McNeil. He was a good guy.
noen @ 133
PBS or NPR are not “ours”.
Natch. I don’t think anyone’s said that the right’s views should not be broadcast. Just, umm, not to the exclusion of the left’s, tyvm… I’m stating the obvious here I guess :)
I did not watch the Perle film, but I doubt very much if he mentioned that he is currently under scrutiny for war profiteering in connection with his role with Global Crossing Inc.
Despite how he may come across in TV as smug and self -assured (again I did not see last night’s show), right now I think he is one scared puppy. His media appearances are as much about trying to shore up a crumbling reputation as justifying his role in the war.
Perle and Global Crossing Inc.
Rayne @ 144
Not a dude, though I understand.
Maybe, but it still isn’t my voice. I do not hear non white (I am white though), non straight, non wealthy voices. I have to go to Radio Pacifica for that. Here MPR refuses to broadcast Democracy Now’s podcast.
I do not hear my voice on MPR, NPR or PBS.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 151
Yah, it made my head spin when I watched him give this same bit as his curmudgeonly role on CBS Sunday Morning about 6 months ago. What made the CBS essay different was how he sidled up to the tax issue; he was very worried that our military was broken, that we’d have no ability to respond to threats like Iran and North Korea except by use of nuclear weapons, and that was clearly unacceptable to him. Today’s NPR bit was more focused on the extreme of wealth in this country, waiting in line for Bentleys, while our troops make do without.
Let’s see…Ben Stein calling for taxes on the rich for more than 6 months…Pete McCloskey bails out on the RNC…Lee Iacocca wants to fire the administration…
I think we’re just waiting for the Fourth Horseman. Who will it be??
Fresh thread for everyone.
Rayne @ 137
lukery has a diary right now (without the pbs angle) that just got to the recommended list. may i suggest giving following the link and giving it a recommend?
it looks like the problem may be that this particular problem has its tenacles into the dem party too (via a*p*c?)
rip it out… root and branch. please waxman, this corruption is not a partisan issue.
S.O.S. from MA @ 157
Natch. I don’t think anyone’s said that the right’s views should not be broadcast. Just, umm, not to the exclusion of the left’s, tyvm… I’m stating the obvious here I guess :)
You mean, not the exclusion of the facts. When the facts don’t fit, the Right always says that they just have a different view. They won’t admit that it’s the wrong view, or it’s the view with no basis in reality.
Ot, sorry, it’s on cspan2 and Hagel just joined the people and voted Aye.
Redshift @
86
I could get on board with this. I usually give to PBS, because I like most of their programming. It’s really the only television I watch when I do watch. I’ve pretty much alwas stayed away from amost of their news shows. I’m not talking about Now or Frontline, but Newshour, the financial crap, things like that. They’ve always been conservative mouthpieces, or they were always conservative by my standards.
The only time I listen to NPR is when they do their feed from the BBC at night. It’s almost completely unlistenable otherwise. If I want religion, I can flip the dial a few turns, and get plenty of that.
The only–and I mean only–reason I provide money to the radio division is for our classical station here. I do like it, a great deal, and listen to it every day.
I was just over at my local NPR station’s website, and they had a listener survey. I gave them an earful, for all the good it does me.
GeorgeSimian @ 163
You mean, not the exclusion of the facts. When the facts don’t fit, the Right always says that they just have a different view. They won’t admit that it’s the wrong view, or it’s the view with no basis in reality.
I would agree with that in scientific matters. I’m less sure that is always true in the political sphere. I am unconvinced that politics is anything more than opinion.
selise @ 161
Done, Rec’d and Tipped.
This will not be the only scandal with tentacles into the Dems as well, believe me. It’s coming, can see it on the near horizon. But what separates us from the opposition is that we clean house — no matter which house.
I haven’t gotten too far through the thread yet, but haven’t seen anything mentioned about the R-installed management of CPB and PBS.
As far as I can detect my fading interest in listening to their main news programs tracks pretty well to the change in management.
It’s turning into just more from Orwell’s Ministry of Truth.
so it’s a miracle we still have Teletubbies.
Here’s an article about a report by the Inspector General on Tomlinson, the previous CPB head.
And the current management is here, loaded with ex-RNC people.
OT Senate did not get 2/3rd, so voted down, Reid puts forth a reconsider. Debating now.
What Perle says re: Pat Buchanan? “We agree on the fundamentals”???
If I were Pat, I’d sue for slander.
Ahgoo @
72
I’m the slime oozing out of your TV set.
Ot Senate needed 60 votes, only got 54. Those Assh*les!
GeorgeSimian @ 163
Ya, I realized that too when I read Rayne’s (I think it was) followup. So I went back and edited my original. If ya wanna see my pre-EPU deathless prose, refresh and review.
:)
auel @ 153
right but GOODLING subpoena vote
is still on — in about two minutes’ time.
PBS = Perle Broadcasting System?
Christy has a new thread ready.
DeafByPills @
7
There *is* a law. It’s called libel. I’m horrified noone uses it anymore… :(
Sorry I’ve been so OT. Now I’ll go back and read everybod. Sorry again for being rude.
Scarecrow @ 176
Ya, Ya, I’m goin’ alreddy. Sheesh.
Tnx :)
Rushton @ 106
I must admit I love “Car Talk” too. Love the fact that Click and Clack are from Mass., my current home state.
PBS: Propaganda Broadcasting Service
I watch the first segment, which was sobering. I then watched the start of the Perle piece and turned it off. Why would I waste my life watching a war-mongering war criminal, neocon fascist that has the moral development of a grain of sand?
Most certainly EPU’d but rant I will.
I watched most of this show last night.
The first half hour was informative and gave a clear picture of the violence and death plus the treachery that enables it.
The second half, with Pearle narrating, quickly caused me to start screaming things at the television that would make the Rude Pundit blush.
Pearle claiming to be a lifelong Democrat caused me to have an apopleptic fit.Things started flying.
Then he blythely mosies along painting the picture of the biggest concern troll this planet has ever seen.
One sided editing and the rosie pictures of Afghani female students and ponies and candy and I had to turn it off.
This man must never, ever be allowed to absolve himself of the atrocities that he has not only advocated but most heartily still sees as a fundamental duty for America to continue.
Where have you been that you missed the fact that PBS and NPR have been gutted and propagandized for years now? I don’t watch PBS any more except for an occasional nature show, and even those have been dumbed down to the point of making viewing painful. And I certainly won’t give them any money!
All the media outlets are useless and have been for some time. I can’t believe any sensible people still watch TV news, for example. One really shouldn’t trust anyone who does, regardless of the network visited.
The fight for our country clearly is not going to be ease. We’re going to have to fight until we’re bloody, and to hell with our front teeth. This is a fight for deomocracy and we’ve got to give it everything and for the rest of the Bush administration.
I’m looking for a few good Republicans. There must be one or two who love their country. They must know how much America needs them now. Where are they? My Republican family members have all turned, but they are now apathetic and don’t want to be involved.
To: kherman@coxnews.com
I read a statement you made as follows:
It is enough to make some reporters bristle. “Some of them seem to want us to hate the people we cover,” said Ken Herman, a White House correspondent for Cox Newspapers and an association board member. “They don’t seem to understand that you can have a professional relationship with them where you don’t hate them, and you can sometimes talk to them, and maybe have dinner with them.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04…..ref=slogin
My comments:
As an American citizen who does not have access to the White House nor an upcoming invitation to drinks and dinner with persons of power in Washington, I am outraged and dismayed by your comment. You, sir, have lost perspective. We, the American people, need you to protect and solidify your detachment from those you cover. Why? Because otherwise you are more prone to give people the benefit of the doubt that should not be given it. We need the fourth estate to function and that takes courage on the part of reporters because it is more fun to do the dinner and drinks routine. We need your detachment, discipline, and skepticism for the health of all of us in this Nation. Please step back from your comment above, think about who you want to serve ( I hope it is this country) and do your job. I implore you.
This is the result of the continuing argument between the Administration and PBS. Bill Moyers was virtually drummed out and replaced by Voice Of America propaganda. The problem with the far right is that they believe the truth can be compromised by political argument.
I am amazed that the Prince of Darkness, Dr. Death, is a spokesperson for anyone anymore. To be that wrong and cost tens of thousands dead and wounded?
The Perle segment is but one of a weeklong series which in my opinion has shown impressive teeth. MacNeil is a tough commentator. Dry but tough. Taken alone, I’m thinking the Perle program was a case of allowing him sufficient rope to hang himself.
There has been scant comfort provided bushies or neocons so far.
I watched this show with interest. It was well produced and shot, but ulitimatelyleft me with that impression that, as you said, this was a freebie neo-con propaganda show.
It did show however, how closely certain arguments
are aligned with the truth…very hard to pick out
the inaccuracies unless you are conversant with the
realities of what he was promoting.
Agree that Perle piece needs balanced by somebody like Michael Moore.
Most undertalked about thing about the Crossroads piece immediately before Perle?
The post video translation of the Iraqi troops all but laughing out loud at the Americans finding a few RPG’s and bombs. They all seemed to be in on the fact that THEIR local mosque had a HUGE stage of these weapons BUT NOBODY TOLD THE AMERICANS (which is prima facie evidence of whose side they’re really on)
The fact we fired all those gay translators is really insightful in this clip. Not saying it would make a difference in the overall, but if you’re trying to win ‘hearts and minds’, YOU AT LEAST HAVE TO SPEAK THE LANGUAGE.
Enjoy.
Rayne @ 110
I think it is about profits, but the networks are basically going down the road of the Big Three, and we know what that did to Detroit. Clogs to clogs in three generations (well, maybe four in this case). The internets are going to kill off the networks in my lifetime, and that’s getting shorter.
We have similar problems in the UK, affecting both the BBC (whose funding is set by the government of the day) and Channel 4 (a commercial TV station that supposedly has a “public service” remit).
I’m not so concerned with the practice of giving such individuals a platform – so long as it is balanced by a similar program giving the opposing view and not, as all too often happens, some supposedly “centrist” arguments produced by a right-leaning beltway Dem – but by the failure of the relevant broadcaster to give the background of the politician to whom they have offered a free platform.
In the run-up to the invasion of Iraq Richard Perle headed the pro-war speakers in a Channel 4 “should we invade” debate in front of a studio audience. He lost the debate, but one wonders how much more heavily he might have lost had the audience been aware of his close ties to organisations such as the PNAC, Likud and the Likud-supporting Jerusalem Post, and frequently-voiced contempt for international law. All Channel 4 chose to mention was his chairmanship of the Pentagon Defense Policy Board.
Channel 4 still seems to use Perle as a neocon talking head on a regular basis without mentioning either the above ties or his current, and potentially rather serious, legal problems (he may, for example, have to testify in the racketeering case Patrick Fitzgerald has brought against his friend and business associate Conrad Black).
The BBC seems to provide Perle’s friend David Frum with a similarly regular free platform, without bothering to mention, just for example, that he is credited with coining the phrase “Axis of Evil”. They even managed to use him as a talking head in a discussion about the Alito nomination without mentioning that it was he who had just spent a third of a million dollars on TV ads dissing Harriet Miers, Bush’s original nominee.
While the Perle episode was particularly disturbing the previous three episodes in the series were terribly damning of the administration and its policies. I believe that the allowing Perle to express his views, within the context of the series, was appropriate
I actually think Perle did a good job of hanging himself. He never directly answered any of the critics, just completely dismissed them. The critics made clear, concie challenges (especially the Iraqi journalist) and Perle simply responded with vague soundbite propaganda. Plus his dead-eyed blank stare speaks volumes about his soullessness.
Given that, I couldn’t watch the whole thing and turned it off.
However – the “Gangs of Iraq” documentary was exceptional. As was the first segment braodacast on Monday about Jihad and Islamism, which very clearly made the point that the neocons have operformed preceisely as Osama bin Laden wanted them to.
Don’t give up on PBS. They put in Perle to show “balance” but the overall series has been excellent so far.
Like many commenters here, I’m not ready to give up on PBS; but they’ll get no more of my money until Bush is out of office and his minions in PBS are replaced.
Also, for a very thorough critique of the entire series, see Gary Kamiya’s review at salon.com
Bill Rudman
I did not find Mr Perle’s “movie” as objectionable as some. I was struck by the weakness of his arguments, and the lack of evidence to support his assertions. He presented the case for war in its’ best possible light, and it was still lacking. Even trying to present the case in a thoughtful, dignified manner, its still the same over wrought wing nut rhetoric (liberals hate bush so much they can’t see the truth, fight them there so we don’t fight them here, ties to al queda). PBS and NPR are kowtowing too much to the right these days but I still think they do a pretty good job over all.
Robert @ 188
I appreciate you and others bringing forward this point of view. I’ve added an update acknowledging that my original understanding of this series (I thought it was all Frontline) was not correct. Placing Perle’s film in this wider context presents a very different picture from just having PBS carry the Perle film in isolation. Whether PBS should have done this this way raises some interesting journalistic questions — but for some other post.
Thanks to everyone for your comments this morning.
Also, Perle made Pat Buchanan sound reasonable and informed.
Strange how the hard-core neocons re-align the playing field and give us allies in strange places.
Note on the ‘profit’ motive.
Much of the propaganda we’re seeing is paid for by the taxpayers. Journalists are being paid to write positive stories on everything from the war (tough job that one) to the agriculture department. Just because Gannnon/Guckert, Williams, et.al were exposed DOESN’T MEAN IT STOPPED.
No mention in the Perle piece about the enormous sums of money being sucked up not only by his grand schemes in Iraq, but in the overall military industrial complex that supports it. No mention of how this supports his other conservative buddies like Nordquist who would/will happily bankrupt the country once they’ve stolen enough to start their own.
Plenty of other individual rightwingers are also throwing money at people/press/politicos to get their skewed points of view into the public arena.
Enjoy.
I watched it for awhile expecting something completely different. I was, frankly, horrified that the propoganda machine was beaming into my space and turned it off. I turned it back on a couple of times to see if I was off-base, but I wasn’t. I was shocked that there were no opposing views. The part on the Mall w/the antiwar protestors was extremely shallow and so full of platitudes I found it almost unbelievable. Hollywood High? He thought that his friends’ parents were too sympathetic to Communists while he’s hanging out at their pools when he’s in high school? (bullshit) He’s always been a registered Democrat (liar). John Kennedy is his hero. (Teddy probably loved that part.) The discourse in this country has reached a new low where we have Pat Buchanan looking like the only critic of Richard Perle on PBS.
cal @ 198
I know, I aways get nervous when Pat Buchanan starts to sound reasonable. I always stop and start taking an inventory of my thought process…..just to make sure.
It’s important to know how these people (neo-cons, the right) think, so I feel like this show deserved my attention.
I really didn’t think the episode was one-sided. They may have meant it that way, but Perle’s narration was self-defeating.
Perle’s flawed logic equates containment (Soviet Union) with unilateral projections of force (Iraq).
If it’s clear that containment worked (if you accept the premise that the USA “brought down” the wall, which I don’t), then why not stick with that policy? It’s not clear that unilateral interventionism has worked, or will ever be effective.
What I found weird about the show was that either Perle was trying to dumb down his argument, or he really is that deluded.
Nick @ 202
I tend to agree with you here. Giving these neoclassical lunatics the spotlight is often far more revealing than they realize. Here’s where I think it gets a little tricky. You and I (and some other minimal minority) have the good fortune of being able to see thru the propaganda. I’m not sure why these critical thinking skills are so underdeveloped (religion?) in homo sapiens, but propaganda and the reliance on it has an excellent provenance. The Germans were/are some of the most educated people in the world yet were skillfully manipulated, so education alone appears to offer little protection.
An example from the show: The ‘everybody knew they had WMD’ charade. Invoking freakin’ Hans Blix into his neocon LIES. The rightwing likes to say the left is so uncivil. They are correct. It is totally UNCIVIL for any member of the press to allow these LIES to get started/perpetuated in the first place. I’m no foreign policy analyst, just a middle aged news junkie. All the casus belli were obvious lies. The media complicity nearly total in the US (note to media whackoffs – apology not accepted)
The only ‘civil’ thing to do is call a liar a liar. What’s uncivil is to allow lies positied as truthiness to carry the weight of fact.
Enjoy.
Perle was on Charlie Rose last night as well. You can watch it on Charlie Rose website if you missed it. Perle told Charlie, ” I disagree with being called an architect of the Iraq war, architects design and build buildings.” Perle was fairly critical of the Bush administration for the mistakes made after the fall of Baghdad and the US unfamiliarity with the culture led to further misjudgements. He said he recommended they install an Iraqi government immediately after the invasion meaning exiles (Chalibi) instead of having an American occupier government.
I tuned in a little late. When I first turned it on, I swore I heard Perle say he worked on JFK’s campaign and that he’s a Democrat. WTF?? Did I hear him wrong or am I going crazy? Richard Perle a Dem?
All in all, it was a piece of total propaganda and never should have been allowed on PBS.
I watched the Perle segment last night — or as much of it as I could stand. What a smug asshole, utterly convinced of his righteousness.
Then this morning I hear about today’s Baghdad bombings: The worse it gets, the better it’s working. Where is Orwell when we need him? “The surge is working” seems destined to become the the greatest example of newspeak ever. Meanwhile, Iraqis keep dying.
I now view PBS CNN and NPR the way we cat and dog partners view pet food.
Last night I read about Natural Balance pet food company having to recall some products because of contaminated ‘rice gluten’.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/4/17/18112/7199
They had added rice gluten to these products about 6 months ago, but didn’t change the label to include the rice gluten because they have six months to do that.
Best bet for the consumer: don’t buy the Natural Balance pet food, it may contain the toxic gluten even though not so labelled.
That’s why I no longer watch PBS CNN NPR: the pockets of toxicity such as you target occur unpredictably on these channels, so rather than risk exposure to them, I don’t give them a chance to ‘get’ me with the toxic lies, omissions, and distortions that would affect the validity of my perceptions.
I can afford to do that now because of folks like you in the blog world, and Amy Goodman and Air America radio.
(Off topic, but relating to pet food, one of the comments in the above link suggested that the gluten probably came from GMO rice and wheat, heavily laced with a pesticide, and maybe that’s the problem. Made me wonder if pesticide manufacturers are researching making humans ’round-up ready’.)
SharonRB @ 205
Agreed: Perle lied early and often.
I don’t know what gets defined as propaganda anymore? Personally, I don’t think that even skillful editing of known LIES really qualifies anymore. It’s a total dumbing down of propaganda and makes good propagandists cry.
Your description ‘total propaganda’ sort of got me wondering about the relative differences. I don’t think propaganda necessarily has to be lies, but ‘total propaganda’ could suffice as a synonym for such.
It’s bothersome to me that Perle gets to do on the public airwaves something I see akin to falsely yelling ‘fire’ in a crowded theater.
In this case it’s even worse since he was yelling those lies at the time (while trying to strike the matches), and even now that he’s been shown to be incompetent (at best), he gets an hour from PBS to air his video which attempts to do for the Arabs what Mein Kampf did for the Jews?
Enjoy.
Without having read thru all the pups comments, let me posit this about that:
What BETTER way to expose the insanity of Perle, NEOCON MeriKa and their foils than to let him rant on untruthfully for an hour on major TV?
Do any of us who know people who WATCH PBS think for a MOMENT they will buy into his ’schpeal’? On the other hand, any PBS viewer who didn’t know much about politics of the NeoCon’s, NOW knows WHAT THEY PREACH!
Perhaps I’m just looking for lemonade amongst the lemons, but . . . .
Christy Hardin Smith objected the other day when I was going on about the hour that Perle was going to have to spread more of his psychopathic lies. Christy mentioned that I should with hold judgement until after the program.
My response was that Perle has demonstrated a serious pattern of lying and fabricating to support his agenda in the middle east.
I am tired of the media giving time to liars like Perle. Enough, put him in jail not on PBS. He is up to his neck in Iraqi blood and could care less. Perle is a psychopath
Moon @ 201
I have been listening and reading Buchanan for 6 years now. He was against the invasion long before it started, and is not afraid to call neo-cons out on their agenda, no matter how often they attack him.
Our country has swung so far to the right (wrong) Pat Buchanan looks like he is in the middle.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 145
Christy You told me to with hold judgement until after the program when I was going on about Perle the other day. I hit the nail on the head and it was not hard to do.
Perle has shown a habitial pattern of lying and manipulating information to support his agenda in the middle east. Why with hold judgement when someone has demonstrated such serious and twisted patterns of deceit, and the result of those lies is hundreds of thousands dead and injured.
I told you so!
I am surprised and disheartened that Richard Holbrooke continues to gain apparent traction in his endless pursuit of his own self-advancement. Never have we had such a flake on the Democratic side bond with such other flakes such Gore and Kerry. And now depending on how you look at her, Hillary Clinton. Now Holbrooke is stating ” we were all wrong” on WMD, letting Clinton off the hook. Clinton postulates the Holbrooke devised rationale that if she “knew” what she knows now she would not have voted for the war. What she “knows” is much less important than what she believed then and believes now. What did Clinton believe when she voted for the war, if anything, is the issue. Not what she knew. But this is classic Holbrooke wordsmithing spoon fed to Clinton
I thought it was actually a good thing of PBS to air the Perle thing. He was given a perfect chance to make the best possible argument for the war, and in trying to do that he showed (a) what he really thinks, and (b) how hollow even the best argument for it is and was.
Perle is shown to be essentially a person whose politics are the “lessons” taken from WW2 and the Holocaust by a subset of Israelis and American Jews. Despite carefully avoiding Hitler and the Warsaw Ghetto in the TV piece, that is really what is there. Hussein is another anti-Semitic dictator out to exterminate
Jewseducated people, Baghdad is just another Warsaw Ghetto battle where theJewsdetermined educated people win if we arm them up, militant Muslims are the same thing as militant Nazis, etc.The problem with this world view is the one we see advocated by Allan Dershowitz, Netanyahu, and a lot of other folks. The belief system has the axiom that creating/maintaining civilization requires a willingness and continued commitment to kill. Rather than civilization being the opposite of murder, it incorporates it as a necessity.
As for Iraq, Perle doesn’t deal with the reality that either a Shia or a Sunni-Shiite shared government involving the present strongmen is the obvious middle term outcome. He prefers to have an American puppet state, basically, or ignores the Iraqis proper entirely. But we already knew that. Too.
noen @
166
I am unconvinced that politics is anything more than opinion.
———————
Well, public opinion that 2 and 2 = 4 is pretty strong and it does seem to work for us. Maybe opinion isn’t such a bad thing if it’s well informed.
Part of our continuing problem is that much of the public has been terribly misinformed by the recent change of the mainstream media to prostitution for Neoconservatism and the Bush family mafia. The public hasn’t been well informed by that. Thank god Al Gore invented the Internet and thanks to our hosts for FireDogLake.com.
“He repeated the fact that both Democrats and Republicans originally agreed with those views”
Excuse me but the implication here is that all Democrats and all Republicans agreed. Simply not true. As I recall 22 Democratic and one Republican Senator did not agree and, as I recall, a majority or near majority of House Democrats disagreed.