
(Lovely handmade rocking chair photo via MontanaRaven.)
For anyone wondering if the SCOTUS decision today would have any real impact on anyone's life other than to ratchet up the rhetoric on the abortion issue, I offer this as a real world example of how difficult the intersection between faith-based outside edicts and scientific/medical immediacy can often lead to incredibly wrenching outcomes.
This one is a painful read for me, as it will be for anyone who has had to deal with a pregnancy loss, but it is a conversation that needs to occur in light of the decision today. A decision which blithely casts aside the judgment of obstetrician-gynocologists, who know their patient's personal history and needs, for the judgment of a bunch of politicians in Washington, D.C. and the rapidly rising questions of faith-based medicine which are so often at odds with scientific understanding and desperate, immediate, individual need.
I am posting a more extended excerpt than usual, because the article is behind a firewall. From the Journal of the American Medical Association (subs. reqd.):
…Over the next two days, the power of modern pharmaceuticals is unleashed in an attempt to quiet her uterus and save the twins. In reality, this attempt is focused on the twin who is fully contained in the uterus, since the one who is almost inside the vagina has no realistic chance of achieving viability. The efforts are valiant — these twins were conceived after 10 years of marriage — and the desire is strong to salvage as much of this pregnancy as possible….
Inducing labor before membranes have ruptured, or before there is a maternal indication such as infection, is technically an elective abortion. This hospital, like most hospitals in the metropolitan area in which they live, has a strict no-elective-abortion policy, which forbids her obstetricians from rupturing her membrances and initiating labor. Women who want elective abortions go to Planned Parenthood; the ones who want to deliver full-term babies go to hospitals; and so the woman andher husband are told they cannot exercise that option at this hospital. The two of them, recent transplants from California used to a less faith-based practice of medicine, are shocked by this. Nobody wants this pregnancy more than they, they argue. The sole reason they are doing this is because the risks outweigh the benefits. Does the hospital require emergence of a frank infection before intervention is permissible? Is this in keeping with the highest standards of practice in modern obstetrics? Her obstetricians are sympathetic but helpless. Finally, they come up with a plan. The sole hospital that does not have such an abortion policy is a university teaching hospital several miles away. Telephone calls are made, a direct admission is arranged, and the woman's husband drives her to the teaching hospital, where labor is induced. The twins are delivered the next day. They are stillborn.
You might wonder, reading this vignette, how I happen to know so many details about this case, or even whether this is a fictional teaching case that so bedevils medical students. The unfortunate truth is that this is real life: I am the husband in this story.
But the greater tragedy here, to my mind, is the straitjacket that a religious worldview imposes on the complexity inherent within clinical medicine. Our world sometimes presents us with situations that cannot be simplistically categorized as pro-choice or pro-life, and other patients across the nation will be faced with decisions like the ones we made on that fateful day.
This is why hospital policies that originate in religion rather than science can be unhealthy and unsafe. Personal religious beliefs can and should guide the lives of clinicians of faith. The extent to which they guide a clinician's professional life is the clinician's personal matter, and I hope that clinicians will choose specialties and practice settings that ensure that patients receive needed care regardless of the clinician's religious beliefs. However, the extent to which these beliefs guide hospital policy is a matter of concern to all of us, whether we are patients or clinicians. The extent to which the US medical establishment succeeds in circumscribing the circle of influence of religion-based medicine will determine the quality of health care that phsycians can offer their patients. Clearly, irrespective of what religion each of us belongs to, this is the very least that our patients deserve.
That also goes for the people we elect to make our laws, and those elected or appointed to interpret them on the bench in our courtrooms.
There is a reason that Jane and I went to the mat time and time again with regard to both the Roberts and Alito confirmations. And with regard to politicians like Short Ride Joe. And why we asked vital questions of organizations like NARAL, which sat on a pile of cash instead of using it to push against the nominations of both justices.
Because women and their families, who are faced with the horrific, personal, and difficult decisions that this family had to face, should not have to deal with people on the outside of their lives deciding what is best for their moral welfare, with no context whatsoever of the individual details. Hard and fast rules do not often apply neatly in individual situations of life and death. And we ought to learn from this vignette, among so many others, that one person's moral certitude can make someone else's life that much closer to hell in the moment in which a split-second decision may be medically required.
(H/T to the anonymous reader who sent me this article for my perusal.)
Related posts:





Spotlight








Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Advanced search

Christy!
Hello Jane:
Hope this meets you well.
Much love.
Thanks Christy
The next election can’t come soon enough.
QUESTIONS —
What is an oglake? And why were you Fired?
What will Joe Lieberman and CT NARALly have to say about this?
*crickets* no doubt
I wonder sometimes how a friend of my brother is doing. She was carrying twins when I met her, and about to move from California to Texas (and not long before the due date). I heard later that one of the twins died in utero, and that they had to do an emergency C-section to save her life and that of the second twin.
Do the people who are so sure that abortion is always wrong (so many of whom are also against sex education, contraceptives, and any kind of family planning) ever think about this as something that might happen to someone they know?
(I’d also add to the problem list: the people who think that ‘every woman must want to be a mother’. I’ve actually heard that sentiment, from a person whose tales of home life left me wondering what standard of parenting was in use.)
Eureka at 6 – Actually, CT NARAL was wonderful. It is Nancy Keenan and the nation NARAL who have some serious questions to answer. CT NARAL did NOT support Lieberman.
boy, all I hear are crickets here, where’d everybody go?
Reporting my fundamental question: If we don’t have the right to privacy, what good are all the other alleged rights?
I had not viewed it through that lens before, but you’re right Redd. This goes beyond the abortion issue to a more fundamental question on whether we, or politicans, decide what care we and our loved ones receive.
This is one reason that I’m wary about a universal health care plan. If government is footing part of the bill, they will quickly decide what level of “care” you can receive. Given what Repubs have already done to our justice system (with some being “more equal than others”), what makes anyone believe that they (whenever they regain power) will not do the same with the health care system.
“You can have the highest quality government financed health care sir/madam, but only if you have shown your loyalty by voting for President Bush (Jeb).”
Think I’m nuts? Look again at what these “creatures” were doing to our justice system and give me a logical reason why these same “creatures” would not do the same to the health system if given half-a-chance.
grrr …
every woman must have the right to choose.
i support the right of every woman to decide what she wants to do about her health, including pregnancy.
End.
Of.
Story!
can we get anita hill and angela wright to come back and help us impeach clarence thomas?
I don’t do Med Malpractice work, but if the standard used by a hospital is that they will not medically intervene with a decaying fetus in a woman’s vaginal canal UNTIL THAT WOMAN DEVELOPES THE INEVITABLE INFECTION, well all I can say is, if that poor woman had died from such an infection while she and her husband we pleading for medical care…..
it sure sounds like a recipe for a negligent homicide case to me.
Un freakin’ believable!!!
looseheadprop @ 13
Bush should be tried for murder. Many murders.
sonate @ 11
you aren’t nuts, just look at the vote on negotiating prescription drug prices for medicare.
where’s the care there?
Christy wrote:
There is a reason that Jane and I went to the mat time and time again with regard to both the Roberts and Alito confirmations
[Modnote: for italics please put the [i]at the beginning and match it with a [/i] with that all-important “/”at the end, thanks]
LHP at 13 — Horrified does not begin to describe my reaction on reading this. From the legal ramifications all the way through to the personal. I feel so badly for this family, having been through my own losses. I cannot imagine what they have had to go through in all of this. I just cannot imagine it.
Next, they’ll make women wear headscarfs.
The really stupid thing about this is that nobody, except a freakish few, want to go back to the way it was before Roe/Wade. This is simply a pedestal issue used as a symbol to keep the Religious vote in the Repug party.
Note to Christy and other Attorneys here: Any comments on current abortion laws Vs those in Canada and Western Europe, to give a sense of what laws are being used in civilized nations, that balance a woman’s right to choose with society’s right to protect the ‘baby’.
EPU’d from last thread–but on topic here:
Biodun @ 51
Eureka Springs @ 6
Don’t blame CT NARAL. I know people who belong to the organization, and they did not endorse him. In fact, I corresponded with their ED, who wrote me:
An excerpt from our second email:
Don’t blame CT NARAL. It is the national organization, led by the useless and odious Nancy Keenan, that is to blame. And as I stated earlier, their response to phone calls about the SCOTUS has been dismissive and rude.
Thanks Christy. I have also been down this road, trying to save a long sought after pregnancy. With all the things that can go wrong with babies in utero, or with mothers, it is appalling that the likes of Strip Search Sammy and Clarence Thomas can make what are personal and moral decisions for women and their families.
Like Egregious, I am pro choice and pro life. But I’d like to call the “pro life” movement as it is by its real name: misogyny.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 8
Oh thank you for clearing that up. On my first cuppa joe right now. It’s a bit off topic but I watched a fantastic hearing on cspan til 4am last night…on renditions and european relations… Firepups be on the lookout for replays…you don’t want to miss it.
From things I’ve read in the past, it is often extreme medical circumstances like this that drive the need for this procedure.
Playing politics with mothers-to-be who are going through hell is a crime.
I am sad for all women and girls today in this country–especially those like my four year old daughter–the ones who will pay in innumerable ways for the follies of the current bottom-feeding, scum-sucking, anti-life administration. Culture of life my *$$
just wondering how the president uses the phrase “culture of life” without flinching. FDL has, once again, proven beneficial in promoting respectful input on a most difficult topic. Thank you.
When my husband was a resident at St. Mary’s Hospital in San Francisco (1976) I became pregnant with an IUD. The IUD was stuck. It was quickly apparent that the fetus was already dead. St. mary ’s provided our health care. They would not touch me until I had miscarried or become infected. Needless to say we went to another hospital in the nick of time. I was getting very sick. Seems that things have not changed much. For some women have little value.
carolyn urban @ 21
yes MISOGYNY
with birth control, a woman could have sex and not get caught! lord amighty, we can’t have that.
This decision is despicable and spits in the face of every woman, every family, every ob/gyn, everyone who has to make these excruciating medical decisions.
Geez, what a week. Is there any good news anywhere?
Anti-abortions forces have both a direct and indirect approach to overturning Roe. The first is a straightforward reversal of Roe. The second aims to whittle away Roe and to place increasingly onerous restrictions upon it which will make it effectively impossible.
I remember writing a blistering letter to Sen Leahy when he expressed doubts about Roberts but decided to vote for him because only time would tell if Leahy’s doubts were justified. I thought this was horsesh*t at the time and still do. If Leahy couldn’t find an affirmative reason to vote for Roberts, he should have voted against him. I am glad to see Leahy now willing to exercise oversight but he should have started before. The failure to stand up to Roberts paved the way for Alito to slide through. And now as you say, there are consequences.
In response to Matt Stollers post commenting on our so-called “leadership” organizations on the abortion issue:
It may be time to start a sustained campaign for the heads of these organizations. I know we’ve criticized some of them before for this or that, but this is now in a whole new ballgame. It is time to either 1) get credible statements by their leadership (preferably including an endorsement of said statement by their board of directors) that demonstrates that they’ve learned their lesson and who will fricking FIGHT for women’s rights, or call for the installation of new leadership who will.
This decision is as much a testament to their effectiveness as leaders forwarding this issue as anything. This decision is a clarion call that says that if things don’t change, then we can only expect further erosion of our rights. It is not wrong for us to now express our loss of confidence in the leadership here and DEMAND change at the highest levels.
Pat @
25
Because it isn’t about life, it’s about power. Power over a woman’s life and her body. It has never been about anything else.
OT.
And so it begins….
Apr 18, 2007 9:11 am US/Central
Police Prepared To Arrest 3,000 At ‘08 RNC
(AP) St. Paul The Ramsey County sheriff has prepared a $4.4 million budget for security during the 2008 Republican National Convention, with a plan to handle the arrests of as many as 3,000 protesters.
Sheriff Bob Fletcher’s proposal includes money for a possible open-air, fenced detention facility next to the county workhouse, riot equipment and Tasers, and $1.7 million for officers’ overtime.
snip
rawstory link
via Raw Story.
Right, this ruling bans a type of procedure only, the so called “partial birth abortion”. There are other ways to do late term abortions, if necessary.
Jeremius @ 30
Agreed, 100%. What can I do to help?
No more Keenans.
Jeremius @ 30
I agree completely. Nancy Keenan has a lot to answer for.
A wonderful woman named Karen Pearl who used to be president of Planned Parenthood, used to say:
Once you let the government force your health care decisions, it can go either way depending on how the winds shift. If they can legislate to stop you having an abortion, they can legislate to force you to have an abortion.
Chilling, isn’t it? You know before she was born, doctors were telling us that Littleprop was supposed have all sorts of problems and birth defects (never believe ultra sounds–they also said she was over 10 LBS and we needed to induce labor early. I went to term and she was only 6lbs. 7 oz.)I swallowed hard and decided to have her no matter what. But that was MY decision. Nobody elses’s. Not every body is willing or emotionallly able to sign on for something like that.
Can you imagine a world where they could have forced me to abort her b/c they thought (wrongly) she would be a drain on the health care system?
Actually, she is whole and beautiful and smart and funny and perfect. They were completely wrong. But in a world where they can prevent you from having an abortion, they can force you to have an abortion.
It is slavery pure and simple.. Slavery is when someone else has the right to determine what happens to you physically, where you will live, what work you will do, etc. Forcing someone who does not wish to, to carry a child she doe nto want, and to risk the injuy and possible death from childbirth, is slavery.
They were completely wrong
I am tired of conservative practioners (ie. Dr. phamacist Administrators ect…) making the public pay for their convictions. If your values mean so much you, you should pay the price not patients and patients families. No one has to be a OB or hospital administrator or phamacist they just pay well.
Elliot @ 27
About 2 decades ago, 3-4 of us were standing aroung at work gabbing. My then 24-year-old research assistant, apropos of nothing I can remember, said: “It must have been really great after the pill and before AIDS.” I grinned and answered him: “It was.”
That was my coming of age period. I cannot fathom how repressive life has become in the intervening decades.
Just within the last year, one of the South American countries – possibly Venezuela (iirc, which I may not) passed a full ban on ALL abortions for ANY reason.
This includes ectopic pregnancies.
This is what the Pope and his followers would like to see everywhere. Yet another good reason to oppose the current administration’s attempts to impose a theocratic dictatorship.
carolyn urban @ 22
Never use their teminology. They are anti-choice. They aren’t pro anything.
DCR @ 32
Yep. I’m sure the
moralizing weaselslawmakers behind this wonderful law gave great consideration to the instances where this procedure is used and the relative safety and availability of the procedures that are left.Our government is septic. We need to perform an emergency C-section to preserve the lives of Mother Earth and all her children. That would be true pro-life.
Mary McCurnin @ 26
Oh Mary, how terrible that must have been for you (not to mention your partner). I coudln’t even leave your searing words in my quote, just reading them for the frist time was hard enough.
Hey, Frist. I ain’t gonna change my typo. What a smarmy monster. Great diagnosis via TV, asswipe.
DCR @ 32
Not in every case, like the one Christy writes about here. A life was lost that might have been saved because of the dictates of a narrow religious sect.
Pat @
26
Particularly since the same president got a college girlfriend pregnant; the girl had an abortion with the encouragement of the president and his family.
In other words, “The only moral abortion is my abortion.”
These hypocrites and their utterly fraudulent “compassionate conservatism” cannot be removed from office soon enough.
sonate @ 11,
That’s just what happened to me when I had my second stroke. The doctor said I needed an MRI and an expensive blood thinner med; then he found I was uninsured. He said, “You don’t need an MRI and you can take aspirin.”
This was countermanded by a second doctor.
Mary McCurnin @ 27
For some
woman = uterus with legs
Great rocking chair. I believe its copied with slight modifications from one of Sam Maloof’s rockers.
Sewmouse @ 39
Both El Salvador and Nicaragua ban all abortions.
eCAHNomics @ 37
for one brief shining moment… !!!
Basic positions:
Pro-Choice: The federal government has no control over women’s bodies
Pro-Life: Life begins at conception and not at birth
Debate is almost impossible. Never the twain shall meet: Euclid’s parallel postulate.
Elliott @ 9
so many of us really aren’t qualified to hold a serious opinion on this issue, as an adult male, I feel like I’m opining outside my expertise (OK,so maybe that is nothing new) but in this case, the issue belongs to my wife and daughter and sisters.
I can give an opinion, but it would be confused. But I do know that sacrificing a woman’s life to save an unborn child should be just as abhorent to the “pro-lifers” as taking the life of an unborn child in the last trimester just because a woman decides she “doesn’t want it.”
The law is quite clear on this matter, but it is, as it has always been, up to the moral values of the abortion practicioner, to make certain this procedure really is done only under emergency circumstances. In dire situations, it can really be the only check-and-balance system that would apply.
OT, but very important, read this;
By ADAM GELLER
The Associated Press
Wednesday, April 18, 2007; 1:27 PM
BLACKSBURG, Va. — The gunman blamed for the deadliest shooting in modern U.S. history had previously been accused of stalking two female students at Virginia Tech and had been taken to a mental health facility in 2005 after an acquaintance worried he might be suicidal, police said Wednesday. Cho Seung-Hui had concerned one woman enough with his calls and e-mail in 2005 that police were called in, said Police Chief Wendell Flinchum.”
So how did this proven stalker manage to buy a gun? “Cho Seung-Hui had concerned one woman enough with his calls and e-mail in 2005 that police were called in,”
if criticizing Bush for lying in his SOTU propaganda event can get you put on a no-fly list, shouldn’t something like this put up some red flags for someone trying to buy a weapon???
And shouldn’t those women whom this killer stalked, have a say, or at least some input, into whether he should have been able to purchase lethal weapons? Just one reference to this maniac’s past might have made a difference to 32 victims and the thousands of lives they touched.
Unfortunately, the profit margin on these pistols is so high, and the NRA/gun corporation propaganda so thoroughly ingrained in our old-west shoot-em-up culture, it would require a basic sea-change in our national psyche to have prevented this tragedy, and many more to come.
Brains all awash are very hard to change.
Legs optional.
Things can change again if those who publicly support these court decisions are exposed for making their own contrary private decisions.
The way I always heard the definition is that life begins at conception & ends at birth.
DCR @ 34
So what is the point? It is rather like saying you can take out a gallbladder this way but not that way. Perhaps the SCOTUS should open a medical school where it can teach court approved medical techniques. Patients will no doubt derive great comfort from the fact that although they are unlikely to survive such quackery it all has the court’s stamp of approval.
Margot @ circa 44
“If government is footing part of the bill, they will quickly decide what level of “care” you can receive.”
That’s just what happened to me when I had my second stroke.
I’m sorry (and appalled). I hope that all turned out OK. This is truly frightening.
Badwater @ 52
Didn’t seem to faze Ginrich a bit. The ability of the extreme right for self serving delusion is vast.
Great post, Christy. I am with you and Jane on this 100% Thank you.
Margot @ 45
My experience with universal health care is that there are less likely to be restrictions on the kind of care you get than what you now have with insurers and HMOs.
Elliott @ 48
(may I continue? tyvm)
… … … that was known as come-a-lot :)
Hugh @ 55
It’s about control via boiling the frog a little at a time.
S.O.S. from MA @ 60
707
I gather you are of that age.
If life begins at conception, then shouldn’t the Republic position be that women must be subjected to government monitoring? If any feritized egg fails to result in the birth of a child, that must be investigated to determine fault. All women must be monitored to know if they are carrying a fertilized egg.
S.O.S. from MA @ 60
(may I continue? tyvm)
… … … that was known as come-a-lot :)
With this Supreme Court we are now saddled with, many in my party, the Democratic Party, do not have clean hands.
The culture battle heats up.
My daughter’s first pregnancy resulted in twins. Except they had no brains. The doctors told her they’d never be able to swallow, to have cognitive function or any kind of motor control. Yet the Bushies believe my daughter should have carried these babies to term. No matter the psychological damage to her. Or to the fact that these babies wouldn’t have “life” as we commonly define it.
The right-wingers take joy in imposing problems and hardships *they* won’t have to live with.
OT – Leahy on CSPAN2…
noen @ 59
He was exposed and did suffer consequences.
eCAHNomics @ 61
:) tnx.
Look at dirt. Older.
Badwater @ 62
That would be a logical way to go. But this isn’t about logic. It’s about power.
Badwater @ 64
They’ve been busy breeding Repubs for years and sending them to places like Regency, so they can control everyone else. Repubkinder.
It’s not the Republicans that throw my switch in the wrong direction. I get from them pretty much what I expect. It’s certain members of my party that sometimes angers me. And I intend to keep the pressure on the Democrats.
twolf1 @ 66
Tnx. I could watch him all day.
S.O.S. from MA @ 68
:) tnx.
Look at dirt. Older.
Dirt isn’t always that old. Especially if there are earthworms about.
;)
pasty old men (and Bible thumping women) have no business dictating reproductive decisions to women.
From the NYT’s:
Pro-Life Nation
By JACK HITT
Published: April 9, 2006
Pro Life Nation Link
eCAHNomics @ 62
707
I gather you are of that age.
That was back in the time of balling
Some Congressional members practice effective birth control – they call the Madam.
Sewmouse @
40
And Smirk hates Chavez? Go figure!! Smirk and Hugo oughta be best buds on that fact alone. Does Pat Robertson know about this? Just goes to show what kind of a tool Patty is.
eCAHNomics @
56
Unless the death of the fetus is due to a lack of prenatal care — then its all about ‘personal responsibility’.
fixed something, not sure what
Culture of corruption/Culture of Death.
This is quoted from Eschaton–4/18
Sitting Democratic Senators who voted for the “we don’t care about womens health:
Lincoln
Pryor
Biden
Carper
Bayh
Landrieu
Conrad
Dorgan
Nelson
Reid
Johnson
Leahy
Byrd
Don’t know if anyone has posted this but found it interesting, surprising, disappointing.
It’s kind of difficult to explain to others – but I feel that, even though I’m personally not comfortable with abortion (and even though the partial-birth type gives me the willies to think about), it’s not my place to demand my personal feelings become the Law Of The Land for everyone.
Especially since I’m male and have no idea whatsoever how a woman might feel about an unwanted pregnancy, or how a doctor would determine whether a woman’s life could be saved with that same operation I’m not comfortable thinking about.
It’s not my place to judge, regardless of how I personally feel, and I don’t hold any woman or doctor in contempt (or even dislike them) for the judgements they make about their body, or the health necessities of their patients.
consider a case where an “older” couple wants a child badly.
the in utero tests indicate the possibility of some genetic defect. genetic testing of the parents confirms this possibility. it is early in the pregnancy, however, there is time to watch and retest.
should the couple wait until “the last possible minute”, as they would most certainly like to do,
getting checks and updates from their obgyn,
before making what will be, for them, a life altering decision,
to continue with the pregnancy or abort it?
this partial-birth ruling by the court, like many right-wing anti-abortion schemes,
takes the decisions out of the hands of those most loving, most concerned, and with the most to lose (either way) – the couple,
and puts it in the hands of the state and its legal system.
not only is it profoundly wrong in terms of morality to take away the decision making powers of the couple and their doctors,
it is stupid from a policy stand point.
post this scotus decision,
what will happen is that abortion decisions will be pushed forward into earlier pregnancy.
parents faced with the possibility a defective child, and the deformed family life it insures, will not risk waiting. they’ll just have an early abortion and start over- bearing, of course, the pain of a decision to soon forced upon them.
how is it, in right wing philosophy,
that “the invisible hand” works so well in economic and business decision making
but works so poorly in family and couple decision making?
just as an aside,
my recollection is that some study or other demonstrated that, when it comes to downs syndrome babies, there is no difference in preference for abortions between “ordianry” folk and fundamentalist christians.
Christy, thank you for posting this story. There have been so few of them over the past few years that dramatize the “other side” of the so-called debate on so-called partial birth abortion.
Over the past few years, I’ve found myself explaining cases similar to the one you posted about to generally well informed pro-choice friends who supported the ban on intact dilation and extraction. “Our side” had done such a poor job in defending its position that it was news to them that anything other than bad timing could lead to a late term abortion using IDE.
We need to publish more and more of these sad terrible stories. Get it on Teevee, talk fearlessly like Elizabeth Edwards with her cancer. And vote, vote, vote.
Culture of life…better lose a mother than to thwart God’s will (obviously she had to atone for some sin else it wouldn’t have come down to this horrible situation). Much, much better to flush unneeded blastocysts than to compromise their dignity by harvesting stem cells. Jesus wept.
sonate @
58
It did turn out all right, because of the intervention of a nurse and a doctor from Africa, one of the hospitalists, who was also appalled. They called a social worker who helped out. Thank you for your kind words; I was kind of shocked at the time. I had worked at the hospital for years.
carolyn urban @ 22
Amen.
Biodun @
52
We need no debate on this and related issues. The Theocratic Fascists are in direct contradiction with the intent of the Founding Fathers, yeah well there were some women involved also although they didn’t get any credit, as I spell out in my ‘Blogging against Theocracy’ post here……….
These folks must be pushed from the public square as they are the enemies of our nation’s essential freedoms.
No compromise is needed.
They are wrong in law and morally bankrupt to boot.
OT: Hey, Senator Pat Leahy just finished a great speech about Judicial security post-VT. But while enjoying it, a teenchy worry occurred to me… Howcum he isn’t prepping and cramming as intensively for tomorrow’s session as Gonzo is said to be doing?
… and then I realized, no worries; he isn’t planning to lie a lot, and telling the truth is always SO much less complex.
How does Bush jibe “Sanctity of Life” with his laughter at Tanya Fay Tucker’s pleas for life? How does he justify the fact that TX hospitals can end life support for patients who can’t pay? Goddamn him to the hottest Hell.
My contempt for Joe Lieberman . . .
. . . fuels my desire to hold some feet to the fire.
NARAL.
Senate Democrats.
House Democrats.
I don’t expect Republicans to stand up to Bush, but I am appalled that some Democrats rolled over for him. I want progressive primary opponents against those who voted for Alito.
And I want them to win by large, large margins.
SusanD @ 95
Culture of Life is really Culture of Control.
Peterr @ 96
I think I agree with this.
People won’t care until they have the experience. Frightening because I want to have children and the decision today will limit the medical procedures my doctors can provide.
Elections indeed have consequences, and I wonder how those Republican voters will feel when/if THEIR freedoms are circumscribed. I have some hope b/c the country is finally waking up about Bush and the psychos they’ve elected to office.
Eureka Springs @ 22
thanks for letting us know. it sounds really interesting. i will watch for it to be posted on c-span and try to rip an audio to post on a short list of recent congressional hearing mp3s.
i love it that c-span has changed is copyright policy to make both the floor and hearing recordings the property of the us, the citizens.
If men were having the babies, there’d be a whole new vista on chioce.
JustWondering @ 5
Excuse me while I kiss this guy.
Eureka Springs @ 22
I saw it too, and it is a MUST SEE.
Mary McCurnin @ 27
Situations such as this are not rare, and must be considered. Religion is not involved! It is simply a question of whether you place a higher value on a dead fetus or a hopefully live woman. Even a wingnut can’t come up with any bs to say don’t damage the dead fetus no matter what happens to the mother. These ultra extreme right wing lunatics must be eliminated or at least constrained. The situation is much worse than there being stupid, incompetent, prejudicial, and negligent. They are criminals!
Ouish @ 100
whatever happened to Lady Mondegreen, anyway?
Christy, thanks for this story. It is but one variation on a broad, broad theme.
As a pastor, I have sat with couples dealing with miscarriages and with happy births.
I have sat with couples dealing with infertility and with abundant fertility.
I have sat with couples debating what course of medical care to follow, some of whom chose an abortion and others who did not.
I have sat with women who have later regretted their decisions, and with women who have later been relieved by them.
I have sat with doctors, nurses, and medical care providers, as they have wrestled with their recommendations for care and with the outcomes their actions have led to.
I shudder to think about the future conversations that this ruling will bring to pastors’ and counselors’ offices down the road.
I am appalled at what a 5-4 majority of SCOTUS has done here.
If the prez, Ralph Reed, Scalia, Clarance Thomas, the Chief Justice and assorted wingnut males suddenly woke up one morning and found they we’re with child, do you think that would change their view of choice?
Memo to pro-choice women: Please think twice, and then think again, before deciding to deliver your baby at a hospital that has a “No elective abortion” policy. You are furthering the erosion of your own rights by doing so. Antiabortion activists have been able to pressure hospitals into adopting these policies because pro-choice women do not oppose them.
Selise,
It’s several hours long..all good but the last hour is, do not miss! BTW, Congressman Dana Rohrabacher…is a tiny man, afraid of his own shadow and yet casts darkness on everything he considers… A true member of the dark syde.
Subpoena SCOTUS emails.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 101
NO doubt, they’d have the ability to do whatever the hell they wanted when ever they chose to do it. This is disgusting beyond description. Just when I think my outrage has reached it’s peak, they go and prove me wrong. FUCK!
Any wording in the decision that sounds like “talkers”?????
Remek @ 84
Here’s something for you to ponder:
In the USA, 1 out of 100,000 pregnancies results in the death of the mother.
The potential for something to go extremely wrong is always there.
My mother is an RN who works in a birthing center. I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen her cry over the infants she says “would have been better off if they hadn’t been born.”
Several have suggested, perhaps in jest, that middle class and wealthier women can always head to another country, such as Canada, to obtain an abortion.
May I point out that even the option of going to another country to have an abortion is restricted today for those not already having a current passport. The demand that American citizens have a passport for reentry to the states from Canada or Mexico (or elsewhere) and the existing backlog for processing new passports means that a woman who unexpectedly finds herself pregnant probably doesn’t have much time both to get the passport and arrange for travel to another country before her pregnancy has progressed to the point where the fetus is potentially viable.
For those of us who know ANY pregnancy will be fatal because of a known medical condition, this is an especially scary day. If I develop ovarian cells that are multiplying rapidly and causing cancer, I probably can trust my doctor to do what is medically expedient to save my life, at whatever stage of cancer I’ve reached before the diagnosis. But now if a cell from my ovary is fertilized to a zygote and multiplies rapidly, I now cannot trust my doctor to do what is medically expedient to save my life.
What just happened to the “unalienable right” stated in the Declaration of Independence, to my “Life, Liberty, and Happiness,” I ask.
Frank Probst @ 107
That may be an option in urban areas, but the further you get out into the countryside, the less of a choice you have for hospitals.
But hospitals have boards, who set these policies. They, too, must be held to account.
Is there ANY good news this week?
A.Citizen @ 89
Nice fantasy there, not gonna happen. The right is here to stay. If anything, they are ascendant. As boomers retire and then fade the right will only gain power.
Remek @ 86
Well said. Thanks
Ouish @
102
Is he wearing his O’Glake clan tartan?
Add Rudy the long list of GOP chickenhawks.
Rudy Giuliani, speaking about terrorism and the Iraq war, said last week, “It is something I understand better than anyone else running for president.” How long will John McCain—a real-life war hero down seventeen points in the polls—stand for such bluster, considering the lengths Giuliani went to to stay out of Vietnam?
http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/30661/?
New post on TPM about how justice is only interested in hiring you if you are a rethuglican.
Perhaps this ACLU link bears repeating from previous threads:
Abortion Bans: Myths & Facts
LS @ 116
We have a million dollars of new equipment just installed in the ICU does that count?
“Culture of Life is really Culture of Control.”
Yes, that is the larger issue. And it’s not only about women. Do you think the wingnuts would have been silent if Terry Schiavo were male? There is a larger significance when/if Roe is overturned (or gutted). The state will then have the power to compel anyone to use their body to sustain the life of another.
Does someone need a kidney or liver transplant? The government could compel you to donate. You would be saving a life and the government has a compelling (pun intended) interest in that realm.
This will ramp-up as technology makes transplants cost effective on a massive scale. Big Business will give a push. (It’s their religion — bow down to the “Profit”!)
We have seen the genesis of this earlier. About 20 years ago the GCMS (mass spectrographs) analyzers could do very accruate substance tests on blood, urine etc. The machines (back then) cost a bundle, but the individual tests were very cheap once you had the machine. One of the labs in my school district had the bright idea of testing the urine of all school students — for a discounted fee. Lots of tests, low cost per test, a fast return on investment — and helped “keep our kids off drugs.” The school district thought for several nanoseconds before adopting the lab’s proposal. Profit…and control. That’s what they’re all about.
egregious @ 123
Absolutely!
LS @ 116
Gonzales tomorrow; Be there, Aloha!
Ed*ard Teller @ 115
Ouish @ 102
JustWondering @ 5
QUESTIONS —
What is an oglake? And why were you Fired?
Excuse me while I kiss this guy.
Is he wearing his O’Glake clan tartan?
Everyone knows that oglake is a special glaze used on pottery and then “fired”. It originated from the “Oglake” native American tribe. It’s really quite beautiful you know.
Brisingamen @ 113
Actually, I think the mortality rate is much higher than that, one of the worst in the first world. Closer to 1 in 3000, if memory serves.
That means that actually getting pregnant and carrying to term is a mortal risk to every woman with odds that are far better than winning a nice pot from the state lottery. But that risk is irrelevant to the Culture of Control Freaks; we are merely female vessels of fecundity and nothing more. If one of us breaks and dies, they’ll merely breed another one.
LS @ 116
AGAG appears before Congress on Thursday. A small bit of good news, given the tragedies this week, but one that could have significant ramifications in due course.
Again I go back to the idea that the general population is deeply ignorant about even the most basic medical and biological concepts. When you mix in religious notions based on world views two to three thousand years old, any semblance of rationality is lost.
There is no particular instant when life begins. Conception is just one step in a multi-step process. Blastocysts, morulas, and implantation are, for instance, at least as important.
There is no guarantee that a fertilized egg won’t spontaneously abort or a fetus miscarry.
There is no specific time when a fetus becomes viable, i.e. 196 days as opposed to 195 days.
There is no exact way to calculate the risks to the mother that a problem with the fetus poses.
Pregnancy is a complex biological process. It isn’t black and white or either or. You can talk about statistical averages but specific cases can go anywhere. It is why definitions should be left to biologists and not theologians and why decisions should be left to a woman and her physician and not judges.
I don’t know about you, but if you believe in ‘life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness’ this ruling is 0 for 3.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 97
“If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.” ascribed somewhere to Rose F. Kennedy.
LS @ 116
I sure haven’t seen any…and I’m looking.
Hugh @ 130
That’s what allows Republics to thrive.
punaise @ 101
Why am I unsurprised that you would be in Her service, as am I? :)
noen @ 121
Whoa. I’m speechless. This HAS to stop!
Hugh @ 129
Amen.
LS @ 115
from Salon:
Badwater @ 134
Reminds me of back in 2004. When I was wearing my “BUSH – PINOCHET ‘04″ t-shirt – compliments of Gen. JC Christian – people right and left would not get it. I was at a fairly conservative property owners’ meeting, and two different people asked me why Cheney had dropped out. Going through Whole Foods in Seattle with the t-shirt on, some shoppers would turn away from me in disgust. A few others got it though, wanting to know how to get one.
egregious @ 123
Great!
Make no mistake, if this incident happened to a fundamentalist couple, their views on the issue would do a complete 180. Typically, they don’t understand ANYTHING until it affects them personally, like having a son or daughter killed in Iraq, etc. because they’re not interested in facts. So they have to be slammed in the face with the facts before they can understand and comprehend.
Gonzo tomorrow, yes!
Here’s some good news I just thought of, a bunch of people survived the shooter!!
God Bless them in their recovery.
S.O.S. from MA @ 135
Why am I unsurprised that you would be in Her service, as am I? :)
Is A Monk Swimming (Malachy McCourt’s book) a Mondregreen? Just seeing if I understand the concept.
this is unbelievable even from a procedural level. basically the SCOTUS majority is saying that not only did the three district courts get it wrong in striking down the law, but so did the three appellate courts that upheld the lower courts’ decisions. okaaayyyyyy…
Hugh @ 128
and doesn’t conception itself take hours? it’s a process, not an instant in time.
and as far as when a person first exists – unless we consider monozygotic twins to be one person, and not two – a single person can’t exist until the window for twining is past (i think this is about the first 2 weeks?).
so all this talk about conception is when a person comes into exsistence is, as far as i can tell, just not so.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 101
As my (Catholic) university students used to say, “If men could get pregnant, birth control would be a sacrament.”
balkinization has some good preliminary posts up already – from the academic lawyers.
This infuriates me. Absolutely infuriates me. Medical decisions should be done on a case by case basis, and should be made by the patient and doctor. Tying a doctor’s hands because somebody else somewhere thinks they get to impose their religious convictions on everyone is not only wrong, it is immoral.
And some cultures believe that a child doesn’t acquire a soul until after it’s born.
egregious @ 122
That is wonderful EG.
Anything that makes your job easier is a blessing.
New thread from Jane.
Don’t Reward Failure by Giving Money to NARAL
There will be no money for any of em that went along with this either directly or indirectly. An I intend to let them know about it. I think I’m going to have to start with Barbara Boxer’s office and ask if she has regrets about her support for that stinkin’ Lieberman. This whole thing has to get political for 2008.
Biodun @ 52
Roe v. Wade is a compromise. Whatever its other faults, it was a moderate decision to balance the various rights and interests involved. If the pro-choice position were indeed “no control over women’s bodies” (there are certainly pro-choice people who support that view, but it’s by no means the consensus view), then there is already a compromise, and the problem, as usual, is that the right wing is continually moving further right and insisting that the “center” is halfway between the old compromise and where they are now.
Mandrake @ 137
I honestly doubt that it would. They would be heartbroken but would simply accept it as “God’s will”. Sure, I suppose there are some who would question their beliefs, but the true believers, the core, they would not.
I remember that here on MPR there was an interview of a soldier. He (or she, it was a while ago and I don’t recall) honestly believed that we were in Iraq because Saddam was involved with 9-11.
True believers are usually steadfast and do not waver in their beliefs.
More good news: DOJ whistleblowers!!
What today’s ruling has done is make it ok to legislate medical procedures, any procedure.
Today it is against the law for a late term abortion, tomorrow it could be some other procedure. What if I could NOT have had my hysterectomy for any other reason but cancer?
Or someone decides what type of mastectomy I can have?
Who and what type of medical procedure should be between the patient and their healthcare provider. This IS the ultimate in privacy.
Marie Roget @ 142
Well, I think quite a few things would be very, very different indeed. Ursula K. Le Guinn’s “The Left Hand of Darkness” springs to mind.
FYI, new thread
The Left Hand of Darkness
Wikipedia entry
EPU’d again.
My wife was about seventeen weeks pregnant, and very sick with hyperemesis. She was getting her nutrtion intravenously, and had a pump pushing a constant drip of Zofran, a and home health care nurse came out every week for a checkup.
And one gray afternoon, I was out in the front, cutting back the yellow roses, and as the nurse was leaving she said, I couldn’t hear the baby’s heartbeat, so she needs to go in for an ultrasound.
And so we went in, and the OB didn’t even have to say anything. We could see there was no movement. We were both already crying before he said, I’m sorry.
We had two options: an IDE at the local clinic, or a medical induction. We opted for the first. Part of it was, we didn’t want our first childbirth to be a stillbirth. Part of it was, we just wanted to get it over with. Part of it was, it’s just not healthy to leave a dead baby inside of you.
I should mention that my wife is an ob/gyn, so she knows about these things.
So, the Doc calls the clinic to schedule an appointment for us, but they can’t do it. Tomorrow is Thanksgiving, they say, and there’s nobody here, and we’ll be closed tomorrow, too.
So we go to the hospital, Community Memorial in Ventura, CA. They will not allow an IDE because it was renamed by foes as partial birth abortion. Even though our baby is dead, and it’s the better medical option, they won’t allow it. When protestors started squawking about PBA, the hospital instituted a blanket policy prohibiting the procedure, regardless of medical consequences. So, we go in for a medical induction.
It takes a long time to get admitted into the hospital, and then the induction itself takes a long time. I think they started around 8pm.
At midnight, they’re concerned about some blood tests. My wife’s blood isn’t clotting properly. They run some more tests. At about 2, a hospitalist comes in to tell us they were worried about DIC, and it might be wise to think about calling in some more family.
DIC — Disseminated intravascular coagulation — is an OB’s worst nightmare. It can be triggered by a number of things, including an intrauterine fetal demise. The patient’s blood doesn’t clot, and so she just lies on the table and bleeds and gets weaker and weaker, and there’s nothing you can do except say a long goodbye.
My wife didn’t die. The delivery was awful, but they didn’t need to transfuse. But I’ll never forget sitting in a dark hospital room at 2am with a doctor telling me my wife might not live another twelve hours. Nor will I forget walking the halls of L&D, having people come up and smile and shake my hand and ask if my wife’s delivered yet. Or having a candy striper come in to sell us a package of baby photographs.
Mike Johnson: I’m so sorry. Thankfully you didn’t also lose your wife.
Noen at 154-
You are correct about at least some true believers.
My mother moves ever further into the fundamentalist camp. She has assured me that she would rather see me die via pregnancy (which is surely the outcome given my medical condition) rather than permit me to do anything to terminate any pregnancy. She goes so far as to oppose my use of birth control pills or an IUD, believing that should any egg be released and fertilized, these “instruments of Satan” would murder the “innocent life.”
And she is an adamant supporter of the war in Iraq.
FormerGeorgian: I’m speechless. I guess I just have to say that no one should ever hear such sentiments from their mother.
This decision today has brought out so many painful memories for so many of us. I was upstairs crying a little while ago, and I’m sure I’m not alone.
What a terrible ordeal for you both, Mike Johnson @ 161. An ordeal that never should happen.
God’s (& our) help to you both.
From last night’s thread about female Saudi newscaster showing her face in public: The bearded guy objects: “All religious scholars agree”(that it is against their faith). It so reminds me, of those men who usurp, due to their interpretation of religion, to be the deciders of women’s issues.
LS @ 155
That is good. But I think we all need a little immediate gratification. I’m thinking chocolate.
Mike Johnson – Horror! I’m so glad your wife made it.
Zee @ 167
Seriously!!
Mike Johnson @ 160
Mike, thanks for your story..
Jack
“Women are vessels, the shaped clay that brings wine to our mouths and joy to our hearts. What does it matter that the clay be broken if the wine be saved? Hallelujah.”
Imaginary views of those upon whom Mr. Rove has staked his client’s presidency. Stripped of its rationalizations, it is what I suspect motivates them: a romanticized misogyny, a feral need to bare one’s throat to the dominant animal.
I suspect the Founding Fathers wuld be struck dumb by what has been done with their experiment in government and society. Well, back to the trenches. So, what about those e-mails, Mr. Waxman?
Mike at 160 — I am so very sorry that you and your wife had to go through that, and for your loss.
This is a vile decision in direct contravention of the Constitution which mandates separation of church and state. It is basically an unconstitutional decision. The extreme religious right has imposed their own religious viewpoint on the rest of the nation like schoolyard bullies, just because they can. It will not end with this decision. How long before they mandate conversion by the sword, that you must belong to my particular branch of the church, that Catholics are infidels to be converted or killed, etc. How long before Bush gives a pardon to the killers of abortion doctors and then awards them the presidential medal of honor.
What about the timing of the Supreme Court decision? Could it have been timed to overpower the reporting about Gonzales’ testimony (scheduled for yesterday, rescheduled for tomorrow)?
Oh, Mike Johnson @160, I’m so sorry that you and your wife had to suffer that way. But thank you for telling your story so people know the truth about these decisions.
For me this decision comes down the week I learned my prenancy is not viable. I will have to sit here for at least one more week before I can fight with my HMO to not have to continue with the pregnancy. Although my hope this time is that they will not make me wait 4-1/2 months as last time. SCOTUS sucks- Yes I would much rather be planning for a new baby than trying to obtain what should be my right, a standard medical proceedure.
The implied humanity in this decision is really its opposite, and as you say the rigidity of the law just confuses real world circumstances, where they should be medically focused on the best path to health for mother and child.
Mike@160-I am so glad you and your wife made it through that, it makes the point of flexibility all the more important.
Makes me remember the day I made the mistake of going to a Catholic hospital when I was experiencing heavy vaginal bleeding and pregnant. I said without sufficient remorse that as the pregnancy was clearly not viable, I wanted a procedure rather than to bleed out. I was told by that hypocrite doctor that my pregnancy was considered still viable and that the hospital didn’t end lives. I was to go home and hope I wouldn’t spontaneously abort, which was clearly only a matter of time. Once the fetus was no longer alive, well then I could get a procedure done. I asked him if he thought there was any possibility the fetus wouldn’t die. He got weasily. I asked what would happen if I died first. He stumbled and mumbled. I asked what would happen if I got sick before the fetus died. More bobbing and weaving. I asked him whether he was giving me a medical or religious opinion. Well I told him off in colorful language, marched out and went to another hospital and refused to pay the bill to St. Vincents, who dropped the issue. St. Vincents in New York City. You see, I was lucky. I had a choice, or a “short ride” to another hospital, as Holy Joe Lieberman would say. So many women lack that choice due to where they live. I’m enraged. Just enraged.
I hate to sound rough, and I am really not, but why do people move FROM California to such a state? Why were they “shocked” to find this out? Americans have to pay attention. Look at the state in which you live. Can you live with its laws? If so, great. If not, move.
Your life is much more than cheap houses.