
It's interesting to watch the obsession in the GOP/Media Complex with the Virginia Tech shooter's ethnicity. We go through this every time something like this happens.
Remember when the Murrah Building was blown up in Oklahoma City in 1995?
I do.
In the early hours and days after the blast, people like Rush Limbaugh and right-wing blowhards were a) convinced that evil Islamofascists did the deed, and b) were calling for them to be strung up.
But when it became apparent that the perps were white archconservative militia members, suddenly Rush and his buddies went all touchy-feely on us.
Suddenly — just as with Eric Rudolph, Vernon "David Koresh" Howell, the idiot who slammed his plane into the White House when Clinton was president, and a host of other right-wing and nutball terrorists such as the anthrax mailers who targeted Democratic Senators and the media, and the Noonday, Texas suitcase bombers — it became important to understand their motives. You know, the reasons they gave for doing what they did? So we could be compassionate towards them?
So long as the Cons thought that Scary Brown Furriners did it, motive wasn't an issue, much less "understanding". It was all shoot-'em-down/string-'em-up rhetoric from those folks. But when white conservative males were the perps (and especially if Democratic politicians or government workers were their targets), then suddenly the Cons went looking for every excuse they could find to justify what those terrorist perps did.
Funny how that works.
Related posts:
- The Media’s Generous Double Standard For Republican Extremists
- Come Saturday Morning: Hoist the Double Standard!
- Odierno and Petraeus vs. Cheney on Abuse as a Terrorist Recruitment Tool
- The Next Terrorist Attack on US Soil, Courtesy of Dick Cheney’s Dark Side
- Double-Digit Unemployment Returns to America





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Those poor white conservative males. So much maligned.
Zed?
But, but, we are fighting the terrorists there so we don’t have to fight them here.
woops, missed …
Hello!
Jane Hamsher @ 1
Yeah. It makes it so hard for them to boast about how tough they are.
Reid disappoints. Again.
AP – After the worst mass shooting in U.S. history, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid cautioned Tuesday against a “rush to judgment” on stricter gun control. A leading House supporter of restrictions on firearms conceded passage of legislation would be difficult.
tbsa @ 3
Ah, yes, the “flypaper” theory. AKA “Let’s destroy the country we claimed we were saving from a horrible dictator in the bizarre hope that all the guys who would normally attack us would go to the place we just destroyed.”
Of course, they didn’t count on the residents of the place we destroyed being resentful about it.
Motives are only relevant for crazy white guys. Anyone else does these things becuz they hate real ‘Murikans.
Many folks still choose to forget that until 9/11, Timothy McVeigh was the most deadly terrorist in contemporary US history.
Slightly OT, ComPost has some pictures up from today’s memorial service. I assume the pictures rotate each time you go to the site, but when I was just over there, the picture showing had four/five (presumably) Muslim women centered. They were wearing the scarves (abiyah?) and VaTech sweatshirts. Just thought it was interesting the way photographer framed the shot.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 7
Cold comfort, but at least he waited a whole twenty-four hours before saying it. The first thing out of Bush’s mouth yesterday was to imply that this wouldn’t have happened if all the kids were armed.
Neo-cons? The GOP? Nothing but a bunch of yellow belly bullies.
Demented Debbie Schlussel was all over this (alleged Arab/Muslim identity of the suspect) last night. Complete with racist slurs and all.
Suddenly, I get the feeling that the alleged perpetrators religious affiliation will be deemed quite unimportant in this shooting spree.
-GSD
Let’s not forget Dick Cheney’s admonitions about “healing” when he waxed poetic about the Nixon pardon.
The crazy Christian guy on the quad who normally yells about how all the students are going to hell because the university teaches evolution, today was calling the VA Tech shootings God’s vengeance for gays and promiscuity. I wanted to go punch him in the crotch but I had to go to class.
Ah, yes, the “flypaper” theory. AKA “Let’s destroy the country we claimed we were saving from a horrible dictator in the bizarre hope that all the guys who would normally attack us
Or how we’re bringing freedom to the Iraqi people while tragically allowing it to be taken from us in America. Gotta love the republic party.
Textbook case of cognitive dissonance.
Evidently the shooter work a couple of plays in college workshop class and they were posted on the net today. Littleprop read the plays and sent me really icked out IMs about how creepy they were. (she sent me the links in an IM a few hours ago and I don’t know how to retrive them)
I read one of the plays. Bam, right out of the box anger, betrayel, false allegations of sexual abuse, false allegations of physical abuse, accusations of murder.—all in (IIRC) 5 pages!
This guy was seriously disturbed.
Littleprop pointed out that the guy couldn’t write for beans.
Jane as the script reading professional, …..?
Sorry I didn’t close the tag and don’t know how to fix it… please forgive…
Damn.
That should be “wrote” not “work”
Why can’t I type?
tbsa @ 14
Somehow this article about GWOT on lewrockwell.com seems to fit here:
dakine01 @ 9
Exactly. And to this day, you will find people in the gun/militia community who will say that a) the Murrah folks deserved it ‘cuz they were Feds and/or b) the gummint blew up the building and pinned it on McVeigh. (Seriously. A good friend of mine has a father who runs a gun shop and has ties to the militia/survivalist/Posse Comitatus movement.)
Yup. The interesting thing is that pantsuits and jeans are just fine for women in many (if not most) Muslim branches. The idea is to preserve modesty — and veils in many ways are just an everyday version of the Christian concept of having women wear hats in church (so our flowing locks don’t cause men’s thoughts to stray from Higher Things – though seeing the ornate hats popular in many churches, the problem shifts from inciting lust to inciting envy). Personally, as I hate skirts, I’d have no problem with it. No skirts, no pantyhose to run, no legs to shave. :-)
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what happened to the Cheetoh-stained RedState/MichelleMalkin poster who was caught mailing white powders to Democratic politicians?
Ooops–italics mode? Didn’t know mine would show up that way when I quoted source that was italicized. Sorry.
Jeebus, Tweety has bob Shrum and Pat Buchanan both being idiots right now. Un-eff’ing-be-leave-able.
ad who can forget Rita Cosby at Fox telling us the DC snipers were terrorists
and last night Greta Van Cesspool doing the same and which one of the maroons reported the killers family had committed suicide
Why is there no obsession with Cho’s religion? He’s probably a Christian, isn’t he? If he was a Moslem it would be big news.
Empathy only for the In Group! Only members of the ingroup are human! Only those who believe in Christ will go to heaven
Belong to the ingroup and all your crimes against Out Groups will be forgiven! Believe in Christ and all your sins will be forgiven
People who are differnt go to hell. So you must Believe, Agree with, Think like, Me! Yes! everyone the same so we can all understand and forgive each other no more wars ( cept with folks who are differnt) Imagination is the true enemey within Don’t Even Dream of Being Differnt!
The Decider has Spoken!
Tweety’s verision of the gun control question
“Everything is the Democrats fault.”
Oklahoma kiddo @ 7
OK, guns don’t kill people, bullets kill people. I say let anyone who wants to buy a gun buy one, just outlaw the ammunition.
Phoenix Woman @ 19 says:
Another thing a lot of folks forget,iirc, there were far more children died in OK city than during 9/11 what with the day care cente on the second(?) floor.
Wasn’t McVeigh’s excuse what the Feds did at Ruby Ridge & Waco? Sounds like perfectly good justification to me.
I was on a dig in Mexico when the OK City bombing happened. I didn’t find out about it until two weeks later. It was not a big story in the local small-town Mexico newspaper.
We here remember the Murrah Bulding horror. But we don’t talk about it much down here. A bitter pill to swallow. A homegrown monster terrorist, killing children in day care. Wonder how long it will take for the right wing to start blaming Democrats for being soft on immigration, in light of the VT killings?
katherine graham cracker @ 26
He also said that shooting up old cars with AK-47s was just benign fun. Somehow I don’t see this as much of an argument for permitting people to own AK-47s, but then again Matthews is an idiot.
Oklahoma kiddo @
31
Except if this kid came here in ‘92, that puts it during BushCo I.
My high school and college years were spent in America during the muck of Vietnam – from start to finish.
What I learned is that war is a VERY ugly, dehumanizing, gross thing. It is not a video game. One should not even consider it, until one can feel the human pain and suffering.
My heart goes out to those who are having to suffer the grief and pain from the VT shootings. It is madness. Just like war.
Likewise, when people consider the merits along with the human waste and suffering of those in Iraq, one should not even consider supporting a war there until one has immersed oneself in the pain and suffering – Are you listening Chief-Chicken-Hawk and your dark mentor, Darth Cheney?
It seems, others feel the same way. Cole, via ThinkProgress:
Chicken Hawks make me want to puke… as they always have for the last 42 years.
Everything HUMANLY possible should be tried before a nation resorts to war.
For those who are willing to spend the time and get a point of view of the ethnicity question that is NOT MSM, go here, but go with an open mind. This blog is operated by a mixed blood Korean male (I don’t know what the other part is, but I would guess Caucasian), and he has some pretty inflammatory ideas about Korean males, and how they respond in certain crises.
Metropolitician
Read at your own risk.
It wasn’t soft-on-terror Democrats that let the 9-11 terrorists into Jeb Bush’s Florida. Or let them get driver’s licenses in Jeb Bush’s Florida. Or go to flight school in Jeb Bush’s Florida. It wasn’t soft-on-terror Democrats who gave the 9-11 terrorist student visas.
I certainly assumed this was going to turn out to be the work of the “angry white male.” So I was surprised when the guy was ID’d as NOT a white male.
And it is also unusual, it seems to me, that he’s a citizen of another country. That’s not the normal American mass murderer profile.
That being said, it is true that when An Other Type commits a heinous crime, people wring their hands and wonder if laws can be passed to keep guns/children/cars/planes/trains/pickaxes out of Their Hands.
Whereas no one has ever, to my knowledge, said, “What can we do about all these white male criminals?” Or even, “Should we pass laws to keep priests away from children?” I mean, if ever we should look at a group of people as having Specific Problems That Might Be Solved by Stricter Laws, priests are it. C’mon.
Now I suppose we will hear about laws to stop resident aliens from getting guns. As if that will do anything at all…
But at least can call it “Cho’s Law.”
(Did anyone else catch Brian Williams last night saying we will all remember where we were when we heard about this V.Tech massacre? WTF?)
The previous mass-shooting winner–at the Killeen, Texas cafeteria–was a Texan. He was a former oil worker, IIRC.
Puesto @ 34
I’m one of the many folks who was able to manipulate the system to avoid having to serve during ‘Nam. I later wound up enlisting in the USAF and serving. But I was also one of the only ROTC folks on my campus in the early ’70s who was a McGovern delegate and was protesting the war. Needless to say, I was not real popular with the rest of the ROTC cadets and they mostly thought me a dirty commie hippie.
VT shooting was over half of BBC (yes BBC) (1/2 hour) news broadcast. It’s over half of NewsHour. I don’t find much of what they’re saying to be interesting, insightful, or relevant. I’m with Rummy here. Stuff happens. Sure there were warning signs (and I’m counting the hours until the first lawsuit gets filed against VT &/or cops), but not all such warnings get paid attention to.
I’m more interested in the sociological phenomenon. Some European countries have as many guns per capita as the U.S. Switzerland for sure, given their universal military service & the fact that they keep their guns at home. And I once read that German gun-ownership rate is similar to U.S. But they don’t seem to have rampages.
But then, we’re talking about rare events here, and perhaps overanalyzing.
It says a great deal about where the majority of American people and the MSM are at when they demonstrate that they are incapable of applying the same concern and compassion that they feel towards the victims of the V tech tragedy towards the people who have died and are suffering in Iraq.
In fact in many ways we should feel even more compassion and concern towards the people of Iraq since our invasion of their country created the enviroment for this genocide to be taking place.
Something for punaise from Cheney’s speech to the Heritage Foundation in Chicago on Friday the 13th.
It’s time for different kind of Democrat. Different from Harry Reid. Mr. Reid is a good example of why some of us on the leading liberal edge of the Democratic Party sense a feeling of betrayal. The Democratic Party is not a “centrist” party. Some of us in the Demo Party interpret ‘centrist’ to mean ‘right of center’. And we don’t like it. Not one bit.
In my experience, Cons are not big on diversity. They’re fear-driven, and constantly suspicious of non-Cons.
You’re not really ‘in the club’ unless you pass their ‘appearance standards’ test right off the bat – you better look white/evangelical/angry.
For those that don’t pass the appearance test, you can substitute ‘acting’ white/evangelical/angry – Malkin, et al – as long as it’s done zealously.
Hence, their first question in a tragedy is much more likely to be:
“What did the shooter look like?”
than:
“Are the victims okay?”
dakine01 @ 39
A person today can have some well thought out conservative stands on some issues and still get my respect.
Someone who starts, and continues a war where innocent people get killed, maimed and destroyed, even if they still live, without first trying everything humanly possible to avoid it, is a repugnant human being. They are less than human, and lower than an animal.
They are sick in the head. I grew up in an Air Force family, where my father was killed as an active duty pilot, my girl friend’s father was killed in Nam, and I had more than a few friends who were killed, or had their fathers killed.
These things should only be asked of our fellow humans if everything humanly possible has been tried to avoid it. It is a sick, mad business.
I am so, so proud of Cindy Sheehan. She has more strength in her little toe than these Chicken-Hawks have had in their entire life.
Nancy Pelosi too! She is the strongest woman politician I have seen since Golda Meier or Maggie Thatcher. This chicken-shit coward we have as “Chicken-Hawk-in-Chief” is a complete wimp compared to them.
He should get his messianic ass over there and sit in a bunker with a rifle and get shot at till he gets some sense…. Watch a few babies or children die in front of him for a couple of weeks, and then decide if he wants “perpetual war.”
Hell, even the Iranians got sick of war from 1981-1988. It is a madman’s play ground. It is lunacy!
Hugh, yer killin’ me. yeah, Joe just took Cheney to pieces in that VP debate. I’m of half a mind to express some sort of…contempt?… for the little snot.
Religion? What was the religious affiliation? And, can someone spell mysogyny? So often there’s been some relevance in multiple homicides. And, stop calling it the ‘worst’, as if it is some sort of benchmark with a degree of difficulty.
OT
Rep Burton (R Indiana) is on cspan NOW suggesting censure of th Speaker is in order for her recent trip to the Mid East.
Cho 33-people outraged
Bush 100,000 plus and counting…Yawn
wtf
cleter @
13
Oh, I’d have gladly been late to class to teach an asswipe like that a lesson. *wham* “That’s for false pride, dumbfuck, and a little extra gift for being wholly without compassion…” *kick*
I was waiting to see how long it would take before hearing some dumb remark at work and it happened today at 3pm. A woman (who happens to be a VT alum) blamed it on letting the furriners in and easier access to guns. My place of employment is lousy with nutjobs.
GSD @ 12
i went on shlussel’s site early this morning (followed a link from TBogg’s) and i swear to gawd, for a minute there, i thought someone was trexxing her, but no.
she’s really that nuts.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 43
Harry Reid is a Senator from Nevada, not Massachusetts.
John Tester is a Senator from Montana, not New York.
James Webb is a Senator from Virginia, not Rhode Island.
For any of them to be in favor of gun control would be electoral suicide.
Is that what you really want?
Eureka Springs @ 48
The vote is already in! Someone tell this blind, lap-dog, chicken-hawk idiot: Nancy Pelosi, after the Syrian trip is over 50% in popularity for doing her job well.
The same poll – Chicken-Hawk-In-Chief is at 29% for how he is handling Iraq.
This guy is the most lunatic prez we’ve had in my lifetime – worse than Nixon! And, he was mad as a hatter.
This guy Burton’s constituents are laughing at him and he doesn’t even know it.
“In ever more explosive Iraq, with the Bush administration surge plan faltering, beware the Khomeini solution.”
Well, Cho’s family came to the U.S. in 1992, according to reports. Now, who was Preznit in 1992? Oh, ummmm….
NewsHour just reported that mayor of Nagasaki was shot dead at point blank range by an organized crime thug who was mad because the city wouldn’t pay for some damage they did to his car.
bdu @
50
I would have had some fun and accused him of defending Satan and misleading the flock. I would have said that this is clearly the work of Satan and anyone who says otherwise WORKS FOR SATAN! Repent fool or face the Fire! We burn Witches Here! and then I would run after him!
BTW the NYT has up a propaganda piece from the AP. Iranian weapons have been found in Afghanistan. The doofus writer says that chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Peter Pace said with certainty that al Quds was supplying arms to the Iraqis, an interesting take since Pace is the one who stood up to Bush in February and said that wasn’t clear at all.
The dimwitted AP writer then quotes someone from that font of all things warmongering the American Enterprise Institute blathering on about those evil Iranians. So it has to be right, right?
Meanwhile the clueless AP writer didn’t find the time to explain why Shia Iranians would be arming rabidly anti-Shia Taliban. I guess that wasn’t one of the talking points being spoon fed to him/her so I suppose such an omission is understandable.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponlin…..an.html?hp
Cho Seung-Hui was not a white male. I have no idea if he was a conservative. He had a green card. Living here as long as he did, however, he certainly was very American.
He was 23 (some sites say 24). He came to live in the US when he was 8. That means he’d lived here for at least 15 years, spending almost 2/3 of his life in America. There’s no doubt that, as an English major, he spoke english, probably with no accent.
The gun laws in VA made it really easy for this crazy guy to get guns. That’s the story, not that he was from some far away mysterious land. This is a terrible tragedy, but it is a completely American tragedy.
allan_in_upstate @ 53
Pragmatism v. principle? Virtue v. “ends justify the means”? Perhaps it’s time we cleaned our own Demo house. I go for the President Carter method of principle and truth. And Noam Chomsky and others.
Israeli professor blocks door with his own body in classroom at V Tech so students could escape through window. What a hero!
http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iow…..essor.html
Smear and Fear – The GOP..
Stand on an issue? Nope! Just Smear and Fear to keep me in power.
These are actually maniacs following the head maniac. The more he is isolated, the crazier he gets!
This is a clear sign of a messianic complex –
“I’m the only one who knows what’s right. These poor fools don’t know what is best for them. I will save them, as I was meant to do. God chose me for Prez.”
My prediction is that 6 months from now our messianic emperor will be even more batty. Watch out then.
The bumper sticker quoted on the last post should have its time to come: “IMPEACHMENT – Not just for blow jobs!”
This is under breaking news at JTA Talk about GOOD NEWS
Israel said it was ready to enter peace talks with Arab nations based on a Saudi initiative.
Tlazolteotl @ 56
Too, too funny!
I’m sure they will figure out a way to blame the VT shootings on Clinton. But, for my money, with his wife being a HoJoe type politician, this works for me.
Pelosi in 2007! Now, there is a leader!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 61
allan_in_upstate @ 53
Oklahoma kiddo @ 43
It’s time for different kind of Democrat. Different from Harry Reid. Mr. Reid is a good example of why some of us on the leading liberal edge of the Democratic Party sense a feeling of betrayal. The Democratic Party is not a “centrist” party. Some of us in the Demo Party interpret ‘centrist’ to mean ‘right of center’. And we don’t like it. Not one bit.
Harry Reid is a Senator from Nevada, not Massachusetts.
John Tester is a Senator from Montana, not New York.
James Webb is a Senator from Virginia, not Rhode Island.
For any of them to be in favor of gun control would be electoral suicide.
Is that what you really want?
Pragmatism v. principle? Virtue v. “ends justify the means”? Perhaps it’s time we cleaned our own Demo house. I go for the President Carter method of principle and truth. And Noam Chomsky and others.
Nader said that there’s no difference between Democrats and Republics, but after this much time under Republic rule, Nader was completely wrong. Deomocrats have to be practical get and keep the Republics out of power. The word ‘liberal’ is still like waving a red flag in front of many voters and best to be avoided.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 61
I don’t want to start a flame war here, but insistence on ideological purity can blow up in your face.
Just ask anybody (not in denial) who voted for Nader in Florida in 2000.
The NYTimes has a memorial site just starting up. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04…..index.html
I have to say that it is cathartic sharing the grief, just as I really appreciated their page every day after 9/11 with capsule appreciations of the victims then. It went on for months. They also did us the service of publishing photos of all our military dead in Iraq, a thousand at a time. Can you image a thousand dead people, a hundred thousand, six million? And yet when someone writes about their memories of a single person dying needlessly, it breaks you up so.
KO has a good opening: contrasts the wide mourning for 30 kids on a college campus, while 30 soldiers dying over the last 10 days in Iraq don’t generate the same coverage, outrage or grief.
Is there a provision for a Palestinian homeland? I admit to not being very familiar with the “Saudi initiative”.
loosehead prop
left you a comment last thread at 135
don’t normally enter in to those conversations, but i do wonder what cards he’s holdin’……..
Rush Limbaugh and Crazy Annie and Our-Lady-of the-Concentration-Camps-Malkin would have done a three-wayer on the sidewalk outside the Sans Souci Restaurant in D.C., if Cho had ONLY stashed a copy of the Koran in his ammo vest.
Yes, Badwater. That is exactly correct.
When I worked in a locked facility for teens remanded by the courts, I assisted in a classroom where ethics and values were taught.
I learned a few things. One is that a lot of the kids (at that time, early 90s) really had family values, that is they valued helping their grandparents and younger siblings.
I also learned that values are fairly intact by the time a person is 10 years old. After that, it takes a significant emotional/psychological/personal event to cause a change in the essential learned values.
Interestingly, there was a national TV show the night before this tragedy that recounted an incident in which a mentally ill man got a gun and over a period of 12 hours, randomly killed people in Albuquerque. They did not know all of the events were related. The last two killed were police officers who were called out on a mental health check to the man’s apartment.
The family had tried unsuccessfully to have him admitted to a hospital. He was off his meds.
There is really nothing we can do except try to do as Christy suggested earlier: understand the warning signs, reach out, and look for better ways to deal with these issues.
OT: New Jersey Governor Corzine was travelling at 91 MPH with flashing lights on when crash occurred.
Yes, the same Gov. Corzine that was reportedly struck by a “hit & run driver in a red vehicle”.
Yes, the same Gov. Corzine who was in transit for a meeting with Don Imus when the crash occurred.
sigh…
PW, wonderful post. Thanks for bringing this up.
Alan at 67 -
Right on! For example, Pelosi is a bit too liberal for me – I hate the word, but used here only on the scale of socialist vs free market capitalism – HOWEVER, she has been one hell of a leader in getting all the divergent Dems to follow a position.
Krugman’s Op/Ed the other day pointed out this very fact.. The Base from the Left has been good for the “know-nothing, do-nothing” elected dems..
I know people who voted for megalomaniac Nader in 2000, and when confronted they hand their head and leave the room! I tried to tell them that a week or so before the 2000 election and they were too stone headed.
I didn’t vote for Nader. But “business as usual” for this life long Demo doesn’t get it. I stand by what I said. There is a right way and a wrong way. No amount of trading votes, compromise or whatever changes that.
Gunga Djinn @ 74
The same Gov. Corzine who wasn’t wearing a seat belt.
Dear FDL,
Please keep these important topics in constant disscusion. I’m an Okie and just took a friend from CA. to see the memorial. It is breathtaking when one realises that so many live’s can be snuffed out in an instant. Places like FDL give me alot of comfort in seeking the truth and some sort of sane conversation about the world around us. Peacce be with you all and please contribute if you can to the continued success of FDL. I just gave and it was well worth it because I know that I can turn here for the truth.
at jta
8,000 make March of the Living
Some 8,000 Jews from all over the world participated in the 16th annual March of the Living in Poland. The silent two-mile walk is made from the gates of Auschwitz, the former Nazi death camp in southern Poland, to Birkenau, the part of the Auschwitz complex with gas chambers, where more Jews were exterminated than at any other Nazi camp.
Rafi Eitan, the Israeli Cabinet minister responsible for pensioners, led Monday’s march. Eitan led the 1960 Israeli operation that resulted in the arrest of Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann.
Many of the marchers were wrapped in blue-and-white Israeli flags as they walked along railroad tracks where cars from all over Europe brought Jews to their death during World War II.
Participants in the march include large groups of young people, as well as Holocaust survivors. More than 1 million Jews were killed at Auschwitz-Birkenau. During the commemorative march, the victims’ names, ages and places of origin are broadcast over a loudspeaker.
The Worst Genocides during the 20th Century
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html
When will we ever learn? Apparently not any time soon. 650,ooo Dead Iraqi, 2 million displaced.
More die everyday in Darfur
http://www.savedarfur.org/content?splash=yes
Oklahoma kiddo @ 76
Uh, don’t go going all ‘with us or against us’ huh.
cleter @ 36
And one of those Democrats in Minnesota, then-FBI agent Coleen Rowley, was contacted by the head of a local flight school telling her about a student who wasn’t interested in learning takeoffs or landings.
She tried to get the attentions of both the heads of the CIA and FBI. Nobody listened to her. (And the heads of the FBI and CIA had already learned not to even bother talking to Bush.)
Robert Mooney @ 78
Hey, Robert. I’m glad that you’re finding comfort in our presence. Thank you.
allan_in_upstate @ 67
Oklahoma kiddo @ 61
allan_in_upstate @ 53
Oklahoma kiddo @ 43
It’s time for different kind of Democrat. Different from Harry Reid. Mr. Reid is a good example of why some of us on the leading liberal edge of the Democratic Party sense a feeling of betrayal. The Democratic Party is not a “centrist” party. Some of us in the Demo Party interpret ‘centrist’ to mean ‘right of center’. And we don’t like it. Not one bit.
Harry Reid is a Senator from Nevada, not Massachusetts.
John Tester is a Senator from Montana, not New York.
James Webb is a Senator from Virginia, not Rhode Island.
For any of them to be in favor of gun control would be electoral suicide.
Is that what you really want?
Pragmatism v. principle? Virtue v. “ends justify the means”? Perhaps it’s time we cleaned our own Demo house. I go for the President Carter method of principle and truth. And Noam Chomsky and others.
I don’t want to start a flame war here, but insistence on ideological purity can blow up in your face.
Just ask anybody (not in denial) who voted for Nader in Florida in 2000.
It was not Nader it was the Supreme Court Judicial coup
Oops. Give anyway it is worth it.
That’s right kathleen, (the SCOTUS) did it. Not Nader.
eCAHNomics @ 81
?
It never would have gone to the Supreme Court if the votes for Nader hadn’t made it so close….
Robert Mooney @ 78
5-1/2 years later and WTC is still a gaping hole in the ground.
eCAHNomics @ 77 says
Yes, that Gov. Corzine.
You know, all vehicles look red when you sideswipe them at 91 MPH. Shortly afterwards, everything usually looks red.
eCAHNomics @ 88
Oklahoma kiddo @ 86
I was reacting to this part of your post, which sounds a little creepy after so long with W.
steelthing @ 90
Sorry clicked too soon. I Will be visiting the World Trade Center Site in May. The sorrow I’m sure will be the same memorial or not.
Dreamcatcher @ 35: Metropolitician seems to be half Korean, half black. There is a history of such kids of American black soldiers getting a super-raw deal in Korea. I can understand his bitterness.
bdu @ 50
I’d love to hit him, but I think it’d almost be better to yell up at him “Hey, NICE CHRISTIAN COMPASSION and DECENCY, BOZO!”
It’d be a good test to see if he has any self-awareness, much less shame.
“Mr saturday nite special ain,t no good for hunting ain’t no good for nothing but put a man six feet in a hole” My Apologizes to Lynard Skynard but small guns ARE great for crimes if you want to hunt or fight the Al Queida you probably want a big gun. All the questions of the film “Bowling for Columbine ” which the GOP have ignored are now going to get looked at which is good in this rushed primary season the smaller issues are in danger of being ignored. I’m pro gun but I really don’t want the nuts to have guns. Why can’t we be more like Canada?
Tithonia @ 88
I didn’t vote for Nader. But last time I checked it was okay to vote for someone other than a Demo or Repub. And some argue it’s time to put a stop to the lock the two political party’s have on this nation. Perhaps the Democratic backdown on the recount in Florida had something to do with the Dem loss.
eCAHNomics @ 92
Understood. ;0)
VJB @ 93
Best song in musical Miss Saigon is their called pui doi (sp?), which is about how children of U.S. soldiers & Vietnamese women were ostracized. While it was being sung, a gigantic screen was lowered, on which were projected photos of such children, around toddler age. The most rip-your-heart-out gorgeous was one with a Black father.
More than anything, it was election fraud in FL that fixed the election in 2000.
Way OT but….
I hope Raven is feeling better. If you’re out there…my heart goes out to you. You are obviously suffering and hurting. Do whatever it takes to find comfort. Take care of yourself, and ask for help if you’re feeling rough right now.
PEACE!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 96
Leonard Lopate did a segment on history of U.S. third party candidates for president. No easy takeaways but you can listen to it at http://www.wnyc.org/shows/lopa…..2007/04/17
It’s true. Why the hell did we manage to deal with Oklahoma City as a country, but were all stirred into a total frenzy because of 9/11? Because these Right Wing assholes screamed Islam so loud that invading Afganistan wasn’t enough. They had the whole country thinking that the Islamists were going to invade. Some of these Neo-Con idiots still think that. My daughter who is six was told the other day by her teacher that Islamists use the words in the Koran as an excuse to bomb people. This administration has promoted racism AS A POLICY in their campaigns, in their policies and in their rhetoric.
bg @ 99
Do you remember that Buchanan was the reason for the butterfly ballot?
Has anybody noticed you can no longer do a write in on the presidential ballot? Probably no reason to think the Republican and Democratic Parties colluded on this.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 105
There’s still a way to write in candidates here in CA.
In other news, King George appears at the VT logo sign on the campus lawn in Blacksburg, to add flowers to the impromptu memorial. Local mourners are cordoned off about 100 yards away, allowing the King to share their grief.
Afterwards, the King & First Lady appeared behind closed doors for a private interview with the network anchor. The First Lady appeared without the aid of Anti-Stepford injections.
Think I’ll go find a ceiling that needs painting, or a floor that needs scrubbing. Something cheerful, fun.
Crooks and Liars has the first post of the inevitable: Blame the VT shootings on the atheists in American society. Check it:
Oklahoma kiddo @ 104
You can request a paper ballot in NY. Not sure if there’s a specific space for write-in, but I don’t see any reason why you couldn’t just write it on the ballot anyhow.
Gunga Djinn @ 107
He also believes that this is all the leadership the Nation requires.
Badwater @ 106
I didn’t know that. ;0)
Badwater @ 109
Would that were only so. I think he believes that leadership also includes starting wars.
eCAHNomics @ 112
That was Cheney & friends. The Preznit is just a poser.
bg @ 99
Nader got more than 97,000 votes in Florida in 2000,
far more than Bush’s “margin”, with or withour fraud.
The Wikipedia entry on this has become a battle ground between Naderite revisionists and the rest of the civiized world.
And with that, I retreat from the field of battle.
Anyone have any idea about how this news is being received in South Korea?
Used to be though, you could do a write in very easily in the ballot booth. At least that’s the way I remember it from all the years I voted while living in Cali. Making the write in more complicated doesn’t seem to promote Democracy, would be the view here.
kdh22 @ 101
Seconded.
montag @ 115
Why should they care beyond feeling for the tragedy. The kid was about as American as you can be.
Wonder what kind of pressure Ellis is under?
A*P*C …Judge throws out motion to keep trial secret. At JTA
http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iow…..judge.html
Let’s hope this trial is not delayed again or dismissed. Let’s get to the bottom of the way A*P*C operates.
If it had been Irish, French, Russian reps or officials handing off classified intelligence to foreign officials all hell would break loose in the media. But in our MSM this case has hardly been mentioned. MSNBC[s Chris Matthews did whisper the A trial one time on his program. But he is the only MSM heavy that I have heard even mention it. NOt even the so called brave and liberal Olbermann has mentioned this case or upcoming trial. Olbermann are you there?..you chicken shit. When will you have the balls to go where no one has on this issue on your show? Matthews I hope you show your spine again ( you have been the only one who has) and address this trial on your program, louder than a whisper this time. I know you guys do not control the message, but come on producers we are tired of criticism of Israel and the Israeli lobby being “off limits” in the MSM.
This investigation has been taking place under the media’s radar, just the way the Israeli lobby likes it. SHAKE IT UP SHINE THE LIGHT
Why is it that the left/liberal (hello Olbermann) goes right (wrong) on anything having to do with Israel. You chicken shits!
I served as a poll worker here in California in the last election. It’s not difficult to do a write in- and anyone can ask for a paper ballot if they don’t like the electronic method.
montag @ 115
With great shock and concern.
montag @ 114
Shock & horror, I think. I have news on in background so wasn’t listening carefully soon enough to get full story.
May I ask what’s happened to Raven? I’ve been away from here for a couple of days. Hope he’ll be alright, whatever is going on.
Phoenix Woman @ 120
Thanks.
allan_in_upstate @ 114
Thank You! All the rest is just fuzzy math!
Smart Nader supporters I knew, called someone in a “close” state – Bush v Gore – wise – and traded a vote for Gore, so Nader could still make his point.
We are still paying dearly for others’ stupidity.
Nader is a megalomaniac, like so many politicians.
eCAHNomics @ 102
Oklahoma kiddo @ 96
Tithonia @ 88
It was not Nader it was the Supreme Court Judicial coup
—
It never would have gone to the Supreme Court if the votes for Nader hadn’t made it so close….
—
I didn’t vote for Nader. But last time I checked it was okay to vote for someone other than a Demo or Repub. And some argue it’s time to put a stop to the lock the two political party’s have on this nation. Perhaps the Democratic backdown on the recount in Florida had something to do with the Dem loss.
—
Leonard Lopate did a segment on history of U.S. third party candidates for president. No easy takeaways but you can listen to it at http://www.wnyc.org/shows/lopa…..2007/04/17
—
While I would have never voted for Nader (too risky) and tried my best to convince people that I knew who were going to vote for him out of doing so. Nader had every right to run. It was a Supreme court Judicial Coup plan and simple
hey Phoenix Woman and Firedogs,
Her Wheelerness
has a piece up now about loyalty oaths -
standing apologies if prev. posted
Puesto @ 124
Phoenix Woman @ 117
Something bad happened to Raven???? Oh no, What?
lolo
(((((Raven)))))
kdh22 @
101
I’m OK, thanks. If anyone hasn’t seen Nikki Giovanni speak at the convocation today I think it will lift you hearts. Thanks for the concern. I’ve had my butt kicked before, I heal quickly.
LoudounLib @ 123
I let my mouth overrun my ass. . .again.
raven @ 130
oh please that’s part of your persona. Just glad your okay.
lolo
Damn, now ya’ll got me tearing up again. . .just like Burt Lahr!
Badwater @ 128: I meant to say that Nader’s from CT like the Bush family and Holy Joe.
raven:
When I do it, I call it letting my alligator mouth overload my hummingbird a**. Hang in there Bra!
raven @ 133
((((hugs)))))
raven @ 131
shitty, buddy.
but look on the bright side, at least people are looking at your ass?
Can you imagine what our government would be doing if this perp had been Iranian?
Blaming Nader is a cop out..easy. The one thing I find troubling is most of the folks I know who voted for him are unable to admit how stupid it was.
I read somwhere that the Green Party had doubled its numbers during the 90’s. I kept trying to talk people into being satisfied with incremental steps. Get Gore in and then push the Greens or liberal agenda.
The pendulum swinging so far to the right may have the same effect…just the force of the pendulum swinging so far out there may be enough for it to go left of center, if we keep pushing.
Such a tragedy (crimes against humanity) that so many have died (Iraq) as this swing to the right (wrong) took place!
I let my mouth overrun my ass. . .again.
shitty, buddy.
but look on the bright side, at least people are looking at your ass?
That’ll send em to the exits.
bg @ 100
I agree — Duval County where 27000 of 263000 total ballots were tossed out in mostly Democratic districts. Ballot said to vote on each page of 2 pages of Presential candidates – meaning less experienced voters would likely fall for that. In light of subsequent events, namely Sarasota in 2006 was it just unintentional bad ballot design? Duval County Florida and Duval County Texas (LBJ) where two elections were stolen and that eventually led to unnecessary wars.
In addition to the “Felonious Five” giving Bushies their coups in 2000, SCOTUS will do whatever Our Benighted Emperor needs in the current war over DOJ politicizing criminal prosecutions.
Waxman, Leahy, et al, don’t stand a chance against this idiot with a messianic complex.
He has yet to start the heavy lifting to turn it over to Scalia, Clarence, Alito and Roberts – SCAR – All Fundy-bots who believe in his messianic mission. This is not a wild statement. It is reality.
Peace to you, Raven :-)
raven @ 140
shitty, buddy.
but look on the bright side, at least people are looking at your ass?
That’ll send em to the exits.
bien voyons, everybody has a great ass here at the lake.
Nuff about me, we gotta world to save out here!
eCAHNomics @ 98
I taught on Camp Pendleton when the war ended and the refugees came here to escape the nightmare that was Vietnam. Many of the Marines had married Vietnamese women, and there were every mix imaginable. The black/asian mix is absolutely, astoundingly beautiful. I could not believe how smart all the kids from Vietnam were.
raven @ 144
Yeah!! What he said!
Probably the earliest person to report on GWB.com was Greg Palast. He wrote “The Best Democracy Money Can Buy” about the 2000 election.
Palast scored a domain for GWB.org. Someone inside the campaign sent him an e-mail by mistake, instead of sending it to GWB.com.
It was a “caging list” of voters to be disenfranchised by Katherine Harris. It had at least 75,000 names.
I don’t know how many kinds of election fraud were in play in FL in 2000. Yes, Nader got enough votes twenty times over than the margin in the official count.
Regardless, the numbers of spoiled voters and spoiled ballots were what certainly caused “the vote” to be so close.
bg @ 148
I remember that too.
I’m a very green Democrat, for the record. ;0)
Speaking of terrorism:
Think of this: the worst school *killings* were committed by a guy protesting *taxes* back in 1927, and he used bombs and not guns. More importantly, *he blew himself up*! He was one of our first “suicide bombers”! This is something to throw at arrogant righties complaining about Cho’s gripes against rich kids, or that if everyone there had a gun they could have stopped him (our local ex-marine talk show host at WNIS 790 pointed out that many could die in a cross fire from untrained kids at that time, and in fights before such a tragedy), or Cho’s having an Islamic-themed “Ismael Axe” tattoo on his arm, etc:
http://freepages.history.roots…..saster.htm
On May 18, 1927, 45 people, mostly children, were killed and 58 were injured when disgruntled and demented school board member Andrew Kehoe dynamited the new school building in Bath, Michigan out of revenge over his foreclosed farm due in part to the taxes required to pay for the new school.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster
The Bath School disaster is the name given to not one but three bombings in Bath Township, Michigan, USA, on May 18, 1927, which killed 45 people and injured 58. Most of the victims were children in second to sixth grades attending the Bath Consolidated School. Their deaths constitute the deadliest act of mass murder in a school in U.S. history. The perpetrator was school board member Andrew Kehoe, who was upset by a property tax that had been levied to fund the construction of the school building. He blamed the additional tax for financial hardships which led to foreclosure proceedings against his farm. These events apparently provoked Kehoe to plan his attack.
…
raven @ 131
or, as Chrissie Hynde (Pretenders) so eloquently put it:
“I shot my mouth off, and you showed what that hole was for”
Neil B. @ 151
Thanks, Neil!
way OT: mortgage foreclosures up 800% in CA compared to a year ago! (NPR)
punaise @ 154
Is that all?
Ethics going to invesigate Domenici.
http://thinkprogress.org/
I taught on Camp Pendleton when the war ended and the refugees came here to escape the nightmare that was Vietnam. Many of the Marines had married Vietnamese women, and there were every mix imaginable. The black/asian mix is absolutely, astoundingly beautiful. I could not believe how smart all the kids from Vietnam were.
FYI, Eli is upstairs
Fresh thread goodness upstairs: Eli!
raven @
157
Speaking of Asian-American athletes, Tiger Woods is half-African-American, half Thai. Michelle Wie is Korean-American. Michelle Kwan is Chinese-American. Yao Ming (Houston Rockets) and several Asians in the major leagues are all Asian nationals. The co-founders of Yahoo and YouTube are both Asian-Americans.
Not a shooter among them.
Any bets on how long it will take shrubya to turn this trajedy into a justification for staying in Iraq. It will probably go something like:
This event displays the vulnerabilities of our free society to a madman bent on taking as many innocent lives as possible. This time it was a disturbed Korean-American. Next time it could just as easily be a foreign terrorist with far more lethal weapons.This is why we must fight them over there so they don’t come here to kill our children. The terrorists cannot be allowed to kill our children.I will not let the terrorists murder our children. Terror terror terror, fear fear fear, etc. etc. etc.
Hugh @ 32
Matthews has been one of the only mainstreamers who has been consistently challenging the neo-cons. He has been doing so ever since he realized that he was duped by the Bush administrations WMD lies as well as half of the American population. Matthews has asked some of the hardest, most challenging questions in regard to the endlessly repeated claims being made by the “cakewalk in Iraq” psychopaths about Iran’s “alleged” nuclear weapons program. (deja vu)
I have watched Matthews get so angry about these claims its as if steam is coming out of his ears and fire out of his nose. He is pissed about the lies that led our nation into a needless war based on false intelligence. I have heard him challenge Frum, Kristol and many others with hard driving and logical questions. He often refers to the right wing radicals as the “best and the brightest” in a very sarcastic tone.
He was one of the very first mainstreamers to go into Walter Reed to visit the injured soldiers. I believe his show broadcast for days out of Reed. It is obvious from his expressions that he is really moved, concerned and pissed off that these young lives have been so devastated by this ‘war of choice”
I may not agree with everything that Matthews says, but if you had really been listening to him over the last four years, you would have heard a shift and been witness to what I am saying about Matthews.
He has learned some of the lessons from the MSM’s failure to do their job by challenging the Bush administrations endless claims about WMD’s in Iraq in the run-up to the invasion.
Too bad that Matthews was not listening to the Diane Rehms show before the invasion he would have heard many of her guest (Brezinski, Ritter, General Zinni and many more question the intelligence, wisdom and need of pre-emptively invading Iraq.
raven @ 145
Oh…there ya are. Cool.
rwcole @
120
I’m not sure I understand this paper/electronic option we are being offered. Leading up to the last elections, there was protest/distrust about the elctronic voting machines, so they offered paper ballot option to voters. I don’t trust the machines, so I took a paper ballot. After voting, the poll worker took my paper ballot and ran it through an optical reader (scanner).
So what’s the difference? Pencil or stylus, on paper or touch screen, either way it runs through a black box to be counted; either way a vote can be flipped. Maybe senior citizens trust a pencil & paper, but I really don’t see any benefit from an honest vote standpoint.
And to add to my cynicism, the other day I was studying that GWB43.com WhoIs listing.
One of those companies from Chattanooga, registered to the GOP through SmarTech? They specialize in in optical scanning and paper-to-digital document conversion.
Paper, electronic, electoral college, SCOTUS or purple thumbs in Iraq…it’s all beginning to look like a game of Three Card Monty to me.
(sorry, I’d love to be proved wrong.)
This is great news about Israel being open to negotiations again
http://www.ynetnews.com/articl…..55,00.html
dreamcatcher @ 160
Me, too. I do know the business end of a gun, taught by my father how to handle a .22 and taught by an uncle on a .44. Hubby’s shown me how to use a deer rifle. But I’ve never shot at anything except a target (except for that poor little bird with a BB gun when I was eleven).
And I’m Asian-Polynesian-Caucasian. I’d be far more worried about my dad’s martial arts than his use of a gun; after seeing him catch a trout with his bare hands, I’d hate to see him catch a thief unawares.
punaise @
154
I’ll take it another notch OT, but equally important.
I smell a rat in this Sallie Mae sell-off. A BIG rat. A HUGE rat that looks alot like the Savings & Loan rat that quietly disappeared billions of dollars from the accounts of Americans.
We have a gigantic financial institute, originally operated by the government, being passed into the hands of a few private investor groups and a couple of mega banks.
So if you think the foreclosure thing is exploding, wait until the nations student loan portfolio gets passed into the hands of the usury industry created by George W. Bush.
from the Sallie Mae website:
Welcome to Serfdom. Don’t say that nobody warned you.
You heard it here first (in EPU land)
I remember the muslim community being threatened if not outright murdered (remember the guy from India who was murdered by thugs).
then it turned out to be white guys and there was no apologies or dialog about our prejudices or anything. It was like, so what? they are just muslims?
and we wonder why they hate us so much. Well, duuuhhhh!
dakine01 @
33
I suspect he was in the US from an age younger than Michelle Malkin was when she arrived on our shores, certainly at a younger age than eirther of her immigrant parents.
So he was, for all intents and purposes American, reared if not Native Born. I’m sure he spoke accentless English and from his pictures he looked as assimilated as could be. The only issue of his ethnicity MIGHT be one of discrimination, real or presumed.
Most Korean-Americans are Christian, although some belong to the Reverend Sun Myung Moon’s Unification Church. Not sure what the fundies are calling the Church that owns the Washington Times is called nowadays.
mr. William J. Krar had way more chemical weapons (of mass destruction) than saddam hussein had.
And i believe that he is due to get out of prison, a free man, soon.
he never cooperated with authorities.
i do Not fear al Qaeda.
Noonday is only about 300 miles from here:
capital of the state of texas.
yellowdog jim @
170
well, “soon”:
he went in in 2004 and he got (ONLY!) 11 years.
so he’s in for at least a few more years.