First of all, let me offer my most heartfelt condolences to the families and friends of everyone killed or injured at Virginia Tech yesterday, and all my well wishes and positive thoughts for the wounded and everyone else who had to suffer through the madness, fear and chaos. And I apologize in advance for the wingnut-bashing, but this is really just appalling and insane, and if I don't say something about it now, I probably never will.
Here's Instapundit's immediate reaction to the shootings (all emphasis added):
These things do seem to take place in locations where it's not legal for people with carry permits to carry guns, though, and I believe that's the case where the Virginia Tech campus is concerned. I certainly wish that someone had been in a position to shoot this guy at the outset.
…"A bill that would have given college students and employees the right to carry handguns on campus died with nary a shot being fired in the General Assembly." That's unfortunate. Had the bill passed, things might have turned out differently, though we'll never know now.
Confederate Yankee (via LG&M):
Would the number of students shot at Virginia Tech today have been lower if student there were allowed to take a training class, get a permit, and carry a concealed weapon on campus? There is of course not way to be sure. I do think it is obvious that an armed student or faculty member could have at least made taking their lives a far more difficult.
Michelle Malkin (via The Kenosha Kid, who also quotes an NYT story on "contagious shooting," which is pretty much exactly what it sounds like):
Andrew's Dad, noting a recent editorial from Va. Tech's university relations vice president arguing against allowing students to carry in self-defense on campus, blogs:
Just imagine if students were armed. We no longer need to imag[in]e what will happen when they are not armed.
(…)
Reader Kevin e-mails: "Imagine if sensible CCW laws allowed people to defend themselves, this tragedy could have been avoided."
Yes, that's right – the only solution to gun violence is… more people walking around with guns.
The right wing doesn't even bother to stake out a status quo argument (as the White House did) like "the laws we have are fine, they just need to be enforced" (as if "shouldn't have" is somehow just as good as "couldn't" or "didn't"). No, they go all the way over into Crazyland and argue that there aren't enough students walking around with guns. As if your average college kid with a gun is going to make good decisions when everyone's panicky and running around and no-one knows what's going on.
More likely they'd be so amped up with fear and adrenaline and macho that they'd get themselves killed trying to be the hero, or shoot some innocent bystander because they "thought he had a gun," or because he fit some rumored description of the shooter, or maybe because he was another wannabe hero shooting at an innocent bystander. Tragedy Plus Guns does not actually equal Less Tragedy. (Also, would right wing bloggers be saying the same thing about Columbine? Because the only thing better than college students with guns would be high school students with guns.)
This is a window into the right wing's juvenile fantasy world, where they like to imagine themselves in the role of the Courageous American Hero who saves the day. But, of course that would be dangerous, so the next best thing is to try to create the conditions for such heroism, so that they may bask in its reflected glory (See Also: How We Got Into Operation Iraqi Fuckup). Enabling the hero is almost as good as being the hero, and a lot safer!
When I thought about that last night, I never dreamed that I would see actual proof. And then I saw this, by way of Atrios and Wonkette:
Spirit of Self-Defense [John Derbyshire]
As NRO's designated chickenhawk, let me be the one to ask: Where was the spirit of self-defense here? Setting aside the ludicrous campus ban on licensed conceals, why didn't anyone rush the guy? It's not like this was Rambo, hosing the place down with automatic weapons. He had two handguns for goodness' sake—one of them reportedly a .22.
At the very least, count the shots and jump him reloading or changing hands. Better yet, just jump him. Handguns aren't very accurate, even at close range. I shoot mine all the time at the range, and I still can't hit squat. I doubt this guy was any better than I am. And even if hit, a .22 needs to find something important to do real damage—your chances aren't bad.
Yes, yes, I know it's easy to say these things: but didn't the heroes of Flight 93 teach us anything? As the cliche goes—and like most cliches. It's true—none of us knows what he'd do in a dire situation like that. I hope, however, that if I thought I was going to die anyway, I'd at least take a run at the guy.
They really do think like that, and they get all pissy when reality inevitably lets them down.
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Madness Madness Madness
derbyshire KO’s worst person in the world tonight…
Zed?
Doing the Zed Dance. teeheehee
jayt @
2
Hey, mine too!
Life is just a movie, after all. We shoot, the director yells “cut!” and we jump right up and wipe off the fake blood. Just like Die Hard.
Don’t get Zedhead, lolo.
masaccio @ 6
I don’t even shoot people with my camera…
Nope. Oh well, now to read. But before I do and just based on the title:
Isn’t right-wing-action-hero an oxymoron? I mean we don’t see many from the right wing actually doing anything heroic ya know?
dakine01 @ 9
I think the post (and photo) makes it pretty clear.
I thought picture was mancow that hideous rightwig diskjockey who used to appear regularly on Faux
Why in the world would someone feel the need to own a semi-automatic weapon? Actually, now that I think about, there are some who own surplus military tanks and rocket launchers.
katherine graham cracker @ 11
For all I know, he might be – I just found it on the internets after I decided against my “The Gun Is Good” idea.
jayt @ 2
I worship Keith Olbermann.
Eli @ 13
Zardoz! The ultimate expression and distillation of right-wing thought.
Phoenix Woman @ 15
I especially like the part where the rain of guns comes spewing out of Zardoz’s mouth and he tells them to “Go forth… and kill.”
I read Instasspundits’s remarks yesterday. These others aren’t too surprising. People who make these kinds of remarks ought to join the Army and see the world.
Shooty shooty bang bang!
Why don’t all these wannabe Rambo’s enlist and go actually fight in Iraq? They think they can save the world, why not actually do it?
Oh, yeah, ’cause they’re chickenhawks.
AZ Matt @ 17
I love Clark’s line about right-wingers who love guns: “They should join the Army. We have them.”
Yet in ABC tv’s poll, 50,000 out of 70,000 people said they think this incident does NOT make it important to get better gun control.
You can still vote: look for the link in the sidebar of this page
if I were there, I’m sure that, while diving for cover and seeing people dying around me, *I’d* be counting the shots… – right.
One small problem though might be that I would have no idea how many bullets are supposed to be in a clip, what kind of gun was being shot at me, how many more guns he had, etc.
In addition to being “worst person in the world”, I nominate him for “most likely to be the first to shit himself”.
I’m sure armed college students would go over really well when people start getting drunk at frat parties and the like.
Vonnegut was right. People feeling so alone in the world is a large contributor to our ills…
MS @ 20
Oy. We *are* talking about ABC, though. They’re pretty far in the tank.
Eli @ 19
I have a nephew who joined the Air Force who being deployed to Iraq, seconded to help the Army guard prisoners as an MP. That was not what he joined for but he will be getting one of those Army guns.
jayt @ 21
Counting shots implies somehow you would know how many rounds were in the magazine and how many had been fired, ridiculous.
AZ Matt @ 24
Jeez, that’s awful. Sounds like another indication of troop-level desperation, too.
How can anyone “luv” guns? I don’t understand
Have any of these assholes ever been in the service or the P.D. or even the fucking EMT/FD?
I have zero patience for this shit today.
Every asshole on the planet is trying to score cheap political points off this tragedy.
Thank God for TiVo.
My comments keep getting posted way up in the 30’s is this punishment?
Any more wars will of necessity have to be fought with nuclear weapons.
This 23 year old had mental problems. He was on medication. Aren’t there laws prohibiting mental patients from buying guns???? No one is saying whether it is another P*x*l death or some other SSRI*. Has this been addressed today at all I have been out of the loop today.
lolo
Oklahoma kiddo @ 27
I have brother who is gun collector. He loves the history of some his pieces. If I remember right you, like I, like trains. Different things interest different people.
Eli @ 16
Or when the guy playing Zardoz tells Zed: “I bred you! I led you!”
To which Zed replies: “You were bred and led yourself.”
raven @ 25
One of my all-time favorite Adam West Batman moments was when he and Robin were crouched behind a little folding bulletproof glass bat-shield and slowly advancing on the villains, who were shooting at them with a machine gun. Batman inexplicably whips the shield down just as the shooting stops:
“Holy steeljackets [or whatever], Batman! How did you know they would stop shooting at us?”
“I’ve been counting their bullets.”
Reading all the bluster by the arm chair commandos, it is quite obvious that NONE of them have ever been in a position to KNOW how they would respond. Few of us have.
Derbyshire actual hits it, though in a way he probably doesn’t comprehend when he says:
He hopes he would be a hero. I am skeptical myself. And I do not exempt myself at all from my statement. Like Derbyshire, I’ve always hoped that if I’m ever in a horrendous situation, that I will respond appropriately. But I have also understood that sometimes it is not the physical courage but it is the time when the moral courage is required that can be the most troubling. Too many of the arm chair commandos, the Fighting Keyboardists of teh 101 Pundit Brigade, really are clueless on what courage is. (climbing down off my soap box now).
lolo @ 31
Simple. He was in the State of Virginia, which has just about the laxest gun laws in the nation. They damn near sell the things in Cracker Jack boxes.
raven @ 29
Someone joined the military and didn’t get what they signed up for, astounding!
Not even the branch he joined. Vandenberg AFB is not an MP training center.
Enabling the hero is almost as good as being the hero, and a lot safer!
defend the right to
bearbare arm(chair)s!Just imagine if students had paid taxes. We no longer need to imag[in]e what will happen when they had their taxes cut.
Hugh @ 32
katherine graham cracker @ 26
Tweety’s verision of the gun control question
“Everything is the Democrats fault.”
He also said that shooting up old cars with AK-47s was just benign fun. Somehow I don’t see this as much of an argument for permitting people to own AK-47s, but then again Matthews is an idiot.
To Hugh…From Kathleen
I beg to differ. Matthews has been one of the only mainstreamers who has been consistently challenging the neo-cons. He has been doing so ever since he realized that he was duped by the Bush administrations WMD lies as well as half of the American population. Matthews has asked some of the hardest, most challenging questions in regard to the endlessly repeated claims being made by the “cakewalk in Iraq” psychopaths about Iran’s “alleged” nuclear weapons program. (deja vu)
I have watched Matthews get so angry about these claims its as if steam is coming out of his ears and fire out of his nose. He is pissed about the lies that led our nation into a needless war based on false intelligence. I have heard him challenge Frum, Kristol and many others with hard driving and logical questions. He often refers to the right wing radicals as the “best and the brightest” in a very sarcastic tone.
He was one of the very first mainstreamers to go into Walter Reed to visit the injured soldiers. I believe his show broadcast for days out of Reed. It is obvious from his expressions that he is really moved, concerned and pissed off that these young lives have been so devastated by this ‘war of choice”
I may not agree with everything that Matthews says, but if you had really been listening to him over the last four years, you would have heard a shift and been witness to what I am saying about Matthews.
He has learned some of the lessons from the MSM’s failure to do their job by challenging the Bush administrations endless claims about WMD’s in Iraq in the run-up to the invasion.
Too bad that Matthews was not listening to the Diane Rehms show before the invasion he would have heard many of her guest (Brezinski, Ritter, General Zinni and many more question the intelligence, wisdom and need of pre-emptively invading Iraq.
OT ~ Could this be why there’s been talk of retirement?
AZ Matt @ 32
I own guns too. ;0)
Eli @ 26
Yeah, one of the major reasons I had for joining the USAF back when was knowing it was mostly ocifers getting their a**es shot at. Not good times, as we get the message reinforced each day.
Repugs believe in the culture of life! Guns, gas, tax cuts, pollution and Iraq! And they’ve added corruption and vote rigging.
Georgesimian @ 44
Or as I call it, the Culture Of Lifeiness.
punaise @ 38
I’ll defend your right to arm bears.
AZ Matt @ 17
When I was a kid, there was a cartoon titled “There Oughtta Be a Law.” This sounds like a good one.
Phoenix Woman @ 36
That’s true (full disclosure, I’m a Virginian! but I hate guns!) But the law here sez you can’t buy more than one gun a month. Nice.
LoudounLib @ 48
Yeah, maybe that bought 32 people an extra month of life. Hooray.
Stuff happens.
The ABC online Poll
Do you think this incident is a reason to pass stricter gun control legislation?
No. Violent shootings are isolated incidents and it’s irresponsible to link them to gun control.
58,144
Yes. This shows the violence that can occur when someone has access to handguns.
21,990
I’m not sure. I need more information.
1,645
Total Vote: 81,779
Not a scientific survey.
Hi, gang! I just got back from the DC YearlyKos fundraiser, hangin’ with Russ Feingold and Jon Tester and Brad Miller and John Hall and Jerry McNerney! *G*
Much kudos was given to FDL, especially from Hall and McNerney!
I will probably get pummeled for this, but here goes:
While the type wing-nut comments about “arming everyone” will-nilly are completely absurd, and laughable, a solution – or two, or three – to try and put a damper on this type mentally deranged shooter should be the solutions most effective to make sure this does not happen again.
In my mind, run-away depression drugs for adolescents and young adults who are having problems; Rabid “social hate” from young peers who see someone as “different.”; and teevee/video games based on violence, numbing them against real human pain, all should play a more major roll in solutions to impede the environment where this sort of tragedy can happen.
For example; I lived in metro Denver for a couple of years after Columbine. Today, you cannot find anyone in that school who does not take it very seriously to not promulgate “kid hate” for someone who appears different, or who is a loner, or quiet. Most work very hard to make sure everyone has dignity and feels accepted.
The most effective solutions are not those requiring more government regulation, but those that delve into the environment and culture which grows socially aberrant behavior. As the earlier post pointed out in 1927, the killer of 45 innocent young people in Michigan, did not need a gun to carry out his twisted fantasies.
Okay. Now, pummel away!
Redshift @ 52
I thought it seemed kinda quiet around here…
Yes, because we need to have more 18-22 year-old, alcohol-laced, testosterone-inspired college kids with semi-automatic handguns at their immediate beck-and-call to aid in the resolution problems on campus. Uh-huh.
A police office was quoted on the internets today as coming down against the idea of having armed kids on campus, his reason? It would be hard to tell who was a “good guy” and who was a “bad guy” if everyone had a gun when they arrived on a scene littered with bodies, blood and shell-casings. Good point. Derbyshire, The Ole Instacracker et al will, I am sure disagree; citing Scalia’s faith in the prescience of police officers to discern evil-doers on sight.
Jeebus. Teh Stoopid.
dakine01 @ 46
Now that would be sport. Give the bear and the human say an Uzi or an AK-47 or some such, and send them into to the woods with the admonishment; may the best animal win.
Eli @ 34
My favorite Superman was where they bad guy was shooting Superman and the bullets were bouncing off Superman’s chest. When the bad guy runs out of bullets he throws the gun at Superman. Yeah; that’ll help!
Puesto @ 53
Not sure what there is to pummel…
Redshift, Tell us everything!
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04…..r=1&hp" rel="nofollow"> What was this kid thinking about? There are no indications” said a federal law enforcement official, who asked not to be identified. “There are no indications. Nothing in the past, nothing to indicate that this kid had a propensity to this behavior in any way shape or form.”
There were just the snippets of a lonely young life: prescription medicines, ominous notes and newly bought guns.
Nah
23 year olds kids need semi-automatics
and should be allowed to carry them concealed on college campuses
the mind reels
unsafe happens
Helen @ 57
Hey, it could have been, like, a kryptonite gun or something.
from the opinion page of the australian newspaper 17 april(murdoch owned)(abridged)
the latest massacre at Vir Tech in the US comes as no surprise.
if students know anything about US foreign policy since ww2, they have only to recall names such as Guatemala,Vietnam,Cambodia,Dominican Republic,
El Salvador,Cuba,Chile,Nicaragua,Grenada,
Libya,Yugoslavia,Haiti,Afghanistan,Iraq,to know that if you don’t like someone you either bomb the hell out of the,machine gun them to death,or sell someone else the weapons to do it for you.
the latest US campus massacre highlights dangers of living in that gun mad society,bearing out again that tragically correct truism that to live in the land of the free and the brave you may not end up being free,but you certainly have got to be brave.
.Oklahoma kiddo @
12
A gun is a phallic symbol like no other, especially when it is spewing hot bullets. Lots of guys who feel the need to own guns have male identity problems. They think owning guns defines them as virile males, the more powerful the better.
The need for self-defense is just the pretext. Most so-called sports hunters have never tracked a wild beast bigger than a turkey, much less stand their ground when charged by Rhino.
And it has nothing to do with ethnicity. It’s a male thing.
dreamcatcher @ 64
At least Hunter Thompson was honest about his love for guns. He just liked to blow sh*t up.
Good News about Israel being open to negotiations with Arab nations
http://www.ynetnews.com/articl…..55,00.html
I usually read blogs, not write to them, but your words on guns tonight got to me.
A shooter recently went through a mall in Salt Lake City killing people. An off duty policeman from a nearby town was in a restaurant with his wife. He heard the shots and told his wife to call 911 and to describe what he was wearing so the responding officers would not mistake him for the killer. He was carrying his service revolver and he pursued the killer while the Salt Lake City police responded. There was much confusion and reports of two men with guns and many people claimed there were two killers. If more people had been carrying guns — particularly those without extensive, regularly updated training, many more people would have been killed because they wouldn’t know who was the killer and who was the officer in plain clothes pursuing the killer.
More guns in the hands of people without extensive training and law enforcement skills will not improve security.
Thank you for commenting, Utah Ute.
As the story goes, they had to flush out John Wilkes Boothe by setting fire to the barn in which he was hiding. When he ran out, he was shot, apparently losing the use of his hands. His last words, as he held up his hands, were “useless, useless.”
I think about that all the time, especially now. I’d like to think he wasn’t talking specifically about losing the use of his hands, but making a more general statement.
Another stupid fuck who fucked it up for everybody. Useless.
dreamcatcher @
64
As I said last night …. most spree killers are men. And the men are the ones who seem to want semi-auto guns. So the answer seems obvious …. get rid of the men!
Incremental changes to gun laws can’t prevent this type of thing.
I’m not a gun supporter, but we just have to face the fact that someone who would kill 32 other people in cold blood won’t be stopped by restricting guns. You would need to essentially eliminate guns from the country. And that’s not feasible here.
That said, I highly doubt that having 15% of your students carrying guns would have made this all better. It’s likely that two “heros” would have eventually shot each other in panic.
In wingnut world, all the bad guys come with arcade designators over their head indicating they are the proper targets.
In reality, if everyone is armed, who are you supposed to shoot? And more importantly, who are the police SWAT teams supposed to shoot if they can’t tell one gunner from another?
dreamcatcher @ 64
Right on! It’s all about power vs powerlessness.
Feel powerless, add some low self esteem, denigrated by peers, ignored by parents, school officials, etc. get some drugs from the corporate drug peddlers as a “quick fix” where no one has to spend any time communicating – VOILA! Mass murderer born and bred by the culture.
If he doesn’t have access to guns, he’ll find something. Lizzy Borden had an axe.
dakine01 @ 65
dreamcatcher @ 64
.Oklahoma kiddo @
12
Why in the world would someone feel the need to own a semi-automatic weapon? Actually, now that I think about, there are some who own surplus military tanks and rocket launchers.
A gun is a phallic symbol like no other, especially when it is spewing hot bullets. Lots of guys who feel the need to own guns have male identity problems. They think owning guns defines them as virile males, the more powerful the better.
The need for self-defense is just the pretext. Most so-called sports hunters have never tracked a wild beast bigger than a turkey, much less stand their ground when charged by Rhino.
And it has nothing to do with ethnicity. It’s a male thing.
At least Hunter Thompson was honest about his love for guns. He just liked to blow sh*t up.
Another gun lover and writer, Ernest Hemingway, who displayed his masculinity like a sheriff’s badge, put a barrel in his mouth and blew his own head off. That was his ultimate macho act.
Yes. This morning on KSFO Lee Rodgers read a letter calling the students vicitim wimps because they didn’t rush the kid.
And the lines on the neocons, “We need more guns!” Brian Sussman. the neocon, theocon.
“Too bad it was a gun free zone!” they say.
And Melanie Morgan? She bitched that the Brady Center was asking for donations if you went there to sign a petition.
She thought it was disgusting that they were taking advantage of this death for profit. (Of course she raised money on the war dead with her group MAF all the time.)
I wanted to scream, the Brady center? Who are they? Sarah Brady and Jim Brady. Remember him? He took a BULLET for your hero REAGAN!
You OWE him! If it wasn’t for Brady your god, RR, would be dead. Show some GD respect!
These people just have to push their points now because they know that now is the time that people will again ask, “Why? Can’t we do something? Do we have to arm everyone?”
jello5929 @ 71
I purposely avoided muddying the waters with an argument about gun control – I know there are a lot of progressives who believe in the 2nd Amendment.
I personally don’t like it, and don’t believe there’s *any* good reason to make guns easy to buy, especially without requiring any kind of background check.
Texas Betsy @ 70
dreamcatcher @
64
.Oklahoma kiddo @
12
Why in the world would someone feel the need to own a semi-automatic weapon? Actually, now that I think about, there are some who own surplus military tanks and rocket launchers.
A gun is a phallic symbol like no other, especially when it is spewing hot bullets. Lots of guys who feel the need to own guns have male identity problems. They think owning guns defines them as virile males, the more powerful the better.
The need for self-defense is just the pretext. Most so-called sports hunters have never tracked a wild beast bigger than a turkey, much less stand their ground when charged by Rhino.
And it has nothing to do with ethnicity. It’s a male thing.
As I said last night …. most spree killers are men. And the men are the ones who seem to want semi-auto guns. So the answer seems obvious …. get rid of the men!
Uhhh.. then we might have a bunch of spawns running around at the day care center suspiciously resembling dildos!
For my money, we’ve got too many plastic looking bots among the bushies. Let’s keep the men and look for another fix… Did I say I am a male?
Puesto @ 73
True, but he wouldn’t have been able to kill 32 people with an axe.
(Should college students be allowed to carry axes? Discuss.)
I said that my idea was obvious, not that it was the best one out there!
Loner Heroes is more like the right-wing model.
In this case, it’s beginning to look like Cho cooked-off in a mindspace all his own – private content derived from his past, his fantasies and current relationship difficulties – and he took horrific action with guns.
So, what do the gun goons do?
None of them show any understanding for Cho’s situation, but all of them respond by projecting their own private mindspace back on him as a call to horrific action – more guns.
Instapundit, Confederate Yankee, Malkin and Derbyshire need Cho like TV needs violence – it’s a fantasy of choice that sees guns and ’shooters’ everywhere.
In a free society, it’s a sick mind that makes a gun part of the solution.
The armchair warriors should read more before they condemn… Students barricaded doors with their feet, and one professor died blocking his students from attack, a 76-yr-old Holocaust survivor. (That’s a BBC page with bios of some of the victims. They’ve got several different stories, as well as pics of the memorial services.)
Even though I do have very strong views about gun control (rather different from those of InstaPundit), I share the feelings of many (reading here) that it’s worth taking time and space just to mourn the awful thing that happened.
(CNN) — A year and a half before before Cho Seung-Hui went on a deadly shooting spree on the campus of Virginia Tech, a professor was so concerned about his anger that she took him out of another teacher’s creative writing class and taught him one-on-one.
The former chairwoman of Virginia Tech’s English department, Lucinda Roy, said the anger Cho expressed was palpable if not explicit.
Cho, an English major, never wrote about guns or killing people,, she said. But his writing was disturbing enough that she went to police and other university officials to seek help. (Watch the professor tell how her student frightened her Video)
“The threats seemed to be underneath the surface,” she said. “They were not explicit and that was the difficulty the police had.”
“My argument was that he seemed so disturbed that we needed to do something about this.”
Kathleen @ 66
I remain skeptical. What does Israel mean by “moderation”? I doubt it includes a Palestinian homeland. If it was right to grant a homeland to the Jewish people in 1948, why then is not right to afford the same dignity to the Palestinian people today? Of course I realize I am probably not aquainted with all the dynamics.
“Olmert expected to tell Abbas in Jerusalem that Israel may participate in meetings of work groups set up by Arab League to advance peace process; ‘Israel rejects Saudi peace initiative, but welcomes moderation displayed by Arab countries in Riyadh summit,’ Prime Minister’s Office official says.”
Puesto @ 53
You just proved the NRA’s point (I’m not sure they will make it, though). Give one of these poor depressed kids a gun, let him blow away a half dozen to a dozen of his classmates, and after that, they’ll think different about making fun of kids like him. Makes sense. I expect Michelle will be making the same point very soon.
They limit free speech, so they might as well limit guns.
Here’s a wild thought, instead of trying to restrict guns, restrict and regulate the ammo.
Make them fill out mandatory paper work for every round bought and fired. If the cops and feds have to do it, why not the rest of the armed public?
Let the NRA complain all they want, the Second amendment only covers the guns, not the bullets.
People kill people. American people kill more people with guns than anyone in the world.
Eli @ 78
Odd that you say this, because the Chicago Sun Times reported that Cho had written in red ink on his arm, the words “Ismail Ax.”
The reference here may be the Ishmael, the son of Abraham, who I think took an ax to his enemies or whatever (don’t trust me too much on this).
And macho men George and Dick have the biggest gun on the planet. Somewhat scary.
OK. Serious response this time.
I work in a high school in a rough part of town and try to ignore the great likelihood that one or more of the students may be armed. The campus police (from 6th-12 grade buildings) are armed.
I think that no gun other than the rifle has any place in our culture and I’d rather see a ban on all of them. That is somewhat negotiable in my mind. I would CERTAINLY support and work for a ban on assault weapons.
I long ago made peace with gun nuts. I don’t have one, and don’t want one. I despise the NRA and its nutcases who agree with Derbyshire. They have corrupted the political discourse on guns to the point that we are reduced to arguing that people shouldn’t be allowed to carry concealed guns into Churches and Schools. They won.
I see the mass murder at Virginia Tech as the results of this “victory”. The dead kids and their dead professors are part of the deadly price we pay so that the precious right to own guns is not in any way burdened. Total price last year: approximately 31,800 dead people.
I hope it was worth it to all the Second Amendment purists.
But, it’s certain to happen, given that we cannot find all the nuts, and even if we could, I doubt we could stop them from getting guns. So, I have a bit of trouble with all the talk about how sad it is, especially because I know it isn’t going to change, and most people will forget it soon enough.
The Washington Nationals are wearing Hokie hats tonight.
Here’s an idea. Let’s have a reasonable drug policy. That would go further towards getting automatic weapons off the street than gun control.
Guns, guns, and more guns.
Why not just make school uniforms of kevlar manditory..
1. I never cease to amaze at the boys such as identified by Mr. Eli. These boys are oh so brave, yet not a one of them has ever had a bullet in anger fired at them. They know nothing of the sweat, the fear, and the adrenalin. But on they jabber…usually those types are the ones who first piss their pants in real encounters.
2. I sure wish something would be done about handguns. These things seem to do a lot of killing and are insidious. I STRONGLY favor the 2nd Amendment; but define it as meaning rifles and shotguns. I own several shotguns. But a handgun has far more potential for mischief than for any bonafide purpose. Let the cops have handguns, but keep them out of the hands of most everyone else.
Ghostman
Eli @ 78
Well, let’s not put Descartes before the horse. Only abscissies can’t be ordinated.
Oh crap, where is Punaise? Bueller??
here are a few articles about the A*P*C investigation/trial. Very little about this in the U.S. MSM
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/p…..&art=1
http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iow…..judge.html
Hello MSNBC Matthews and Olbermann when are you folks going to have the chutzpah to start reporting about this investigation, the 4 delays and the upcoming trial on your programs? If it were any other country(Ireland, France, Russia) other than Israel who is “allegedly” involved in this espionage trial you cowards would be all over this investigation and upcoming trial.
We have only heard a whisper out of Matthews about the case, nothing out of Olbermann
You chicken shits!
They really love to point out that English major bit don’t they? Here are a few questions I’d like to know the answer to:
What political party was he a member of?
Who does he listen to on the radio?
Did he read World Net Daily?
Was he a fan of Little Green Footballs?
Instantpundit?
Who did he vote for in the last election?
Was he a member of the NRA?
Did he watch Fox?
Did he listen to Rush or Hannity?
This is important, who are the neocons that influenced him?
Georgesimian @ 85
Something I really wanted to work into the post but couldn’t find a slot for, was the irony that of *all* the amendments of the Bill Of Rights that the Republicans have torn up, the only one that they’re staunchly defending is the one that gives you the right to buy deadly weapons.
I mean, if you’re worried about terrorists killing people, and you don’t give a shit about the Constitution, wouldn’t the 2nd Amendment be the *first* one you’d throw overboard?
Yeah, I know they can make the same argument as the one here, that we need a nation of vigilantes to shoot anyone suspicious-looking before they can blow themselves up, but they should at least be able to get behind the idea of background checks to make sure the prospective buyer isn’t a member of al Qaeda. (Indeed, I believe there are actually al Qaeda instruction manuals that talk about how easy it is to get guns in the US)
Of course, if you start from the premise that they don’t actually care about fighting terror, but rather dismantling the parts of the Constitution they don’t like…
Puesto @
53
Well, I’m not going to pummel you. But I would remind you that untreated depression in also dangerous.
Who was that asshole Senator who screamed, and nearly came to tears, in the Senate! about his wife who was alone in her country house sometimes and needed a gun to protect herself? This was to stop an automatic weapons ban. This was a few years ago. Pre 9/11, I think.
It’s felt that we will see a lot worse than the VT mayhem in the coming years.
Georgesimian @ 85
Access to driving is restricted in all states. Why not weapons?
Phule @
86
Well, the Constitutionally protected “right to keep and bear arms” would simply be construed by the Supreme Court as extending to the projectiles which are the core reason for the very existence of firearms, would they not?
I rather doubt that that would work.
Georgesimian @ 100
How often do, like, five people break into your house at the same time?
millions of americans are spending hours talking about how the next killing can be prevented- that’s our nature. Truth is it probably can’t be- at least not with a cosmic universal solution. This is a case that more closely approximates an earthquake without warning- if it happens- PRAY.
Nothing worse than losing a child–families are beginning a process that for many will only end with their own deaths. My family has lived through way too many of these incidents. People respond by sending food. That’s a very human thing to do- probably the best thing to do–send a casserole.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 100
With all the emphasis on “the most ever” you are darn right.
Utah Ute @ 67
welcome Utah Ute
I read about Cho’s English prof this morning. I teach at the college level from time to time and often have reached out to work with struggling students or even exceptional students on an individual basis. The scariest student I ever had was a fundamentalist who sent me a letter warning that I had better mend my humanistic ways or I was going to suffer hell and damnation. There was no physical threat, just a disturbed psychic one that bothered me for quite awhile.
Badwater @ 102
Well, driving isn’t a constitutional right. But I’m saying that guns should be controlled. Not sure that was clear.
spocko @ 96
Excellent questions all.
Good God.
These people have been COMPLETELY brain-poisoned by teevee and movies.
They must believe that every violent scene in real life happens just the way it does on the screen — IN SLOW MOTION!!!
Fer cryin’ out loud. I can’t even get a KLEENEX out of my handbag or pocket REALLY FAST when allergy season makes my nose run, let alone a GUN.
Or am I going to keep a pistol on my school desk, and hope it doesn’t slide off and clatter on the floor when I flip my notebook over?
The slo-mo pace of their fantasy world will surely give them plenty of time to determine just EXACTLY what’s going on in that split second when someone bursts into a classroom. I mean, I’m sure that if I’m in a classroom trying to understand something like calculus equations, concentrating really hard, then I’m going to be able to instantaneously recognize that the person who just burst in suddenly a) has a gun in his hand, and b) it is a REAL gun and not a FAKE to play some stupid frat prank.
And I’m sure not going to be so stunned by the incongruity of it all that I’ll be able to pull my gun out (oops, I mean “pick it up off my desk surface”!), and point it and take aim.
I’m sure the shooter won’t be at any sort of serious ADVANTAGE because he already has his gun out and in aiming position, right? I’ll be able to move three or four times as fast as he can, in order to recover from my shock and surprise and make up for any positional advantage the shooter has, right???
Jeebus. These people are stone cold STUPID.
And like I said, they’ve been POISONED by all the blankety-blank stupid teevee shows and shoot ‘em up movies they’ve seen.
Anybody know any good ANTIDOTES to this type of stupid-poisoning?
Badwater @ 102
Driving is not a Constitutional “right.”
Not that it makes any rational sense.
The Preznit is pretending to pray. Everyone feel better now?
BobbyG @ 103
Some standup comedian had a great bit where he pointed out that at the time the 2nd Amendment was written, it was basically guaranteeing the right to bear stuff like… muskets. He then proceeded to pantomime a stickup by a mugger with a musket, trying to keep his victim from leaving while he slowly and laboriously loaded the thing.
I’d like to see someone try to go on a homicidal rampage with a fucking musket.
This man (holocaust survivor) was so brave, so selfless at VT tragedy. He blocked the door with his own body so the students could jump our of window to safety.
http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iow…..essor.html
Eureka Springs @ 59
It was awesome! I knew it would be fun, and I definitely wanted to hear the speakers, but we were in a building a block from the Capitol, so we had the experience of having Brad Miller (I think) telling us that he had come over after casting the last vote of the day, and the others would be along once they were done voting. It was this cool “coming by after getting off work” atmosphere that couldn’t happen anywhere else.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 100
I forgot the person who said the future of terrorism in this country will be more of the home-bred variety than the imported. Maybe somebody can help me remember who it was that said this.
Brainwashing? Think Army and Marine bootcamp.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 117
Easy kiddo.
Badwater @ 113
I’m pretending to.
King Asshole himself just came on. Richard Perle on PBS. Total sicko.
raven @ 82
As a 30 year Colorado resident, watching Columbine and the fixes put in place afterward, this teachers crying out for help would be taken very, very seriously. And, something would have been done. This school learned how to maintain a healing environment.
VT is probably too controlled by Christian hate culture if you are different to adopt this sort of sensitivity. All they need is Jesus. He carried an Uzi in Palestine, didn’t he? And wear camouflage fatigues?
Smiting the infidels for god, right? Isn’t Pat Robertson’s Jesus Law School nearby?
There are as many reasons for owning guns as there are gun owners. I grew up in fishing and hunting territory- most houses had a shotgun and a deer rifle.
Some people just like havin a hand gun- but they are pretty useless.
If ya wanna protect yourself- buy a twelve guage- and a pump works just as well as a semi-automatic and is more reliable.
Richard Perle, the nutcase for war.
rwcole @ 123
I wish.
Puesto @ 73
True.
However, Lizzy would have had a hell of a time trying to axe to death 33 people in a public building with all those people standing still for it and without being stopped by, let’s say, someone throwing a desk at her, no?
Phule @
86
Wouldn’t work. NRA has already established that owning black talon cop killerz is a 2nd amendment issue. Just ask Clinton (Bill, that is).
Phule @ 86
YAY!!could it be done?
recreational and sports shooters,farmers etc protecting stock would possibly welcome such a move.the right to buy ammo would be an inherant part of the licence of the gun,not the owner?
also,your constitution guarantees the right to bear arms in a militia.this puzzles me.does that mean every person bearing arms is a part of a militia?if not part of a militia,can they carry guns?is the militia an informal group or a legally recognised group?
sorry if this is ot.
Mrs. K8 @ 126
On the other hand, you wouldn’t be able to wait for her to reload.
Eli @ 114
LOL! Yeah, and Scalia would make the distinction that he is a “textualist” unconcerned with “Original Intent.” So, in his view, it would be restricted to muskets and knives, etc (e.g. what the “text,” the words, meant to the polity at the time of 2nd Amendment enactment), whereas today “arms” extends to all manner of weaponry up to and including nukes.
may @ 127
The militia is now the Nat’l Guard.
Fern @ 99
Of course, you may know that “give ‘em some pills and send ‘em on their way, cause I’m too busy” is the American Pharmaceutical quick fix. No?
Perhaps some “feel good” love, and empathic communication to add to the remedies for depression. Never say the Corporate States of America doesn’t love the quick fix before they head out to the golf course, eh?
Eli @ 104
That was a GOP Senator, right? They’re the ones who say things similar to “let them eat cake,” right?
;-)
Maybe that sort of fear — of folks “storming the Bastille” — is not always completely irrational, for someone with a guilty social conscience.
raven @ 119
Sorry, but it is a kind of brainwashing–by design. Most people, by training and inclination, do not have an urge to kill other people. That’s part of what boot does–break down those barriers, and break down one’s identity, making it easier get people to take orders without questioning them.
Ghostman @
95
I would allow them to be owned for sport shooting. But kept at the range, locked in an armory when not being used.
may @ 128
I always thought the phrasing was too ambiguous, because it only *implies* that you should only have a gun if it’s for militia service.
It basically says that the need for a militia is why everyone should have the right to a gun, but it doesn’t explicitly tie the two ideas together. I *think* they were thinking about an army of irregulars if we were invaded again.
Why don’t we just legalize hand grenades? It is after all just a semi-automatic weapon (you have to pull the pin).
You know, I used to think that until I spent time in a rattlesnake infested territory. Handguns come in pretty handy when a snake is only a few feet from your ankle.
Mrs. K8 @ 133
I’m sure if you put them on the sodium pentathol and quizzed them about it, you would probably end up hearing something like “Negro Uprising”.
Eli @
99
Because if they actually advocated doing something to the 2nd amendment, the mouth breathers from dixie land would all go ballistic on their a**es.
If I start to believe that can tell me what to do with my guns then I might start to believe you could tell me what to do with my unwanted pregnancy or what books to read or not. I would have to believe that someone else is better at running my life than I am.
dakine01 @ 140
Yes. It is very illuminating of their priorities. They have no problem telling everyone else to go fuck themselves.
spirilis @ 141
How about if we don’t tell you what to do with them (other than not using them to commit robbery or murder or other crimes, of course), but say that you can’t get one without a background check to confirm that you’re not an armed robber or murderer or al Qaeda member?
There’s only one ‘right-wing action hero’…And his fantasy is about to get cancelled.
;>)
Mrs K8 @ 112 asks:
None that don’t cause me to lose my pacifism.
darkblack @ 144
Shouldn’t “The Speaker”’s power emanate from her mouth rather than her eyes? Shouldn’t she, like, *speak* Dubya to death?
Hilarious – a “blogger” who’s too afraid to allow comments, claiming he would have rushed and overpowered an armed gunman?
If John Derbyshire had been Barney Fife, Andy wouldn’t have even let him have the one bullet.
Eli @ 142
I think the Al Qaeda thing may be the right angle here.
The history of court decisions on the second amendment makes it clear that it doesn’t mean what the NRA says it means. It’s not even a close call as a legal matter. Cities states and the federal govt have LONG restricted the rights of americans to “bear arms”. Some cities require licensing. The federal govt. has long precluded ownership and use of fully automatic weapons and other military hardware.
The second amendment couldn’t POSSIBLY mean what the NRA says it means- or you and I could own a personal nuclear weapon.
Still- I don’t see america seriously restricting access to guns. The only measures that would actually do any good would never get passed into law- and the ones that are mentioned- like the absurd assault weapons ban- won’t do any good at all.
Texas Betsy @ 148
It’s a golden opportunity to reinstate background checks, IMO. But the Democrats have become totally gunshy on the subject. So to speak.
dakine01 @ 140
“mouth breathers”… too funny! This conjures up the Brad Pitt character in Kalifornia… snuffing, and swallowing the snot from the back of his throat before he took a breath.. Classic!
The country-boys in the hills of Alabama today, comes to mind… Mouth breathers! What a metaphor!
Blame the victims.
Blame the victims.
Blame the victims.
That’s all they can do, blame the victims.
“They should have carried weapons.”
“They should have shot him.”
“They should have rushed him.”
“They could have taken a guy with a .22 handgun.”
But it’s never about their role in this, their extremist neo-liberal attitude of “gun rights uber alles”. It’s never about their disrespect for weapons they either don’t have or will never have used against them. It’s never about local law enforcement and what they think is best.
It’s always about the victims. Blame them.
And when they’re not blaming them, they are using them shamelessly for infotainment. F*cking irresponsible ghouls.
These wingnut fantasies are simply absurd on their face. Even highly trained soldiers seldom act the way they are describing. Those who do are awarded medals for exceptional bravery. These idiots spend way too much time whacking off to Rambo movies.
Eli @ 149
Actually I think the divide may be more rural/urban than repub/dem. Hard to even tell any more with the NRA all mixed in.
I think the desire for the right “to pack” (firearms) is not region specific.
Lots of assumptions being made. Why didn’t anyone rush the gunman? For starters, we don’t yet know that anyone didn’t. It’s entirely possible that someone DID rush him, and they got shot for their trouble. (Or, for that matter, they could’ve killed him. Just because he’s dead doesn’t mean he committed suicide. I’ll wait for the autopsy.) I also think it’s silly to speculate about what could’ve happened if one (or more) of his victims had been armed. Are we sure that nobody else had a gun?
This post is for the media folks:
This time around I’d like the parents of the dead children to talk personally with the NRA spokespeople. They want answers.
Why did this happen?
What forces are in place to make this kind of violence happen?
Who actively works to stop any kind of meaningful gun control?
Don’t bother asking the gun man why, he’s dead. I say that they should talk to these people. They have answers (BTW, if you audio tape your phone call be sure to ask for permission first.)
The NRA spokespeople are the best in the world.
To contact an NRA spokesperson call them: Their PR firms is listed here: Here is the link to their results for NRA).
Shirley & Banister Public Affairs (This the link to the great PR they do for the NRA)
This is their office numbers so the parents or press can call them.
703 739-5920
800 536-5920
info@sbpublicaffairs.com They are even in Virginia!
Ask for Diana Banister or Craig Shirley (He of Willie Horton fame)
(FYI: Diane is the one who does music for churches so if you are interested in the Christian angle to gun violence she probably is the one to talk to.)
I’m not kidding when I say these people are the world’s best trained spokespeople, they are prepared to offer soothing sound bites for the parents of the dead.
The media NEVER call them, but I think they should now is the time for them to look into the eyes of the parents and say, “I helped make sure this keeps happening. That is my job.” They have good answers. It might be a bit harder talking to the parents but they are well paid and trained. (They are Ann Coulter’s PR firm)
If you are in the media don’t just talk to them one on one, you should really get them on the line together with friends and relatives of the dead. (And if you do talk to them please let us know what they say, I’ll post the replies. I’ll bet they are great and will be useful for other people to read.)
Those of you in the press who feel bad about interviewing the parents of dead children, why not call the NRA spokespeople? Do it NOW. Seriously.
It would be great TV/Radio. What, you think that it would be exploiting the tragedy? No.
When YOU call relatives you are already intruding, you are already exploiting the tragedy (and I know how much you HATE doing it, I would too). Now is the time to discuss this tragedy in a new way that will move the conversation forward with the two groups who are the most involved: The NRA the the Relatives of The Dead.
As the wingnuts are already pointing out, you already are pushing a view point when you call them. You KNOW that there will be screams for gun control right after this. Why not deal with WHERE the screams come from and WHY. The screams of the people who say, “No gun control! More guns not less!”
The people whose JOB it is to keep those screams silenced the rest of the year should deal with the sobbing parents, not you, Mr. Media. You can understand. You see the pain. But you aren’t the one who is working to ensure this kind of violence keeps happening.
What do I propose this?
NRA spokespeople’s job every day is to make sure that these kind of great TV moments are played out over and over again. They have provided you TV people with excellent images and raw emotional interviews for years. Maybe it would be good if they could see what YOU see and talk to the people YOU talk to so that the next time they work to pass a bill, they can remember the look in the eyes of the parents and friends of the dead.
LLAP,
Spocko
Eli @ 144
Are we talking about an every day job application in America?
Eli @ 139
Oh yes.
And sometimes it doesn’t even require sodium pentathol.
A few boilermakers at the local taproom would do it.
Gnome
Yeah- I guess that’s valid. Some hunters insist on carrying a hand gun to extinguish a wounded animal..seems like an odd thing- why carry an extra five pounds around.
They ARE kinda fun to use against tin cans- but it’s not easy to be accurate. Give me a 12 guage any day for a shot that HAS to be made under stressful conditions.
dakine01 @ 145
None that don’t cause me to lose my pacifism.
That’s what I thought. Sigh.
Puesto @ 132
Won’t deny that meds are overprescribed and that mental health services can be a disaster – even if you can afford to pay for them.
But I know I would be either dead or disfunctional if not for those much-maligned quick fixes. And love can be hard to find (especially if you are in a major depression when, if you shower, it is a good day).
Boilermakers
A wave of nostalgia.
Haven’t had a boilermaker for years- decades maybe.
Hey, Kathleen…..this is EPU’d (correct usage??) from several days ago, but wanted to say I enjoyed your ref’s to Lorena Bobbit as an, uh, ALTERNATIVE to impeachment of these criminals.
oddmommy @ 164
Those. Aren’t. Peaches.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 156
Having lived all over the country, you are mostly correct. But the number of NY residents who know how to handle a fire arm and use them for hunting are mostly in the upstate (above the thruway). Western Mass, parts of VT, NH, and Maine have hunting populations. But these are minorities in comparison to the overall populations. More prevalent in the south and west and parts of the mid-west. But the South can be the “poster children” for the knuckle draggers/cold dead hands types.
Rayne @ 152
You know what? I think it is their FEAR that this could happen to them.
So they blame the victim, thus giving them the illusion that they wouldn’t be VULNERABLE.
Fucking cowards, really.
Cowardly NARCISSISTS, actually, because THEIR own personal security comes first before the simple human decency of being compassionate to the DEAD VICTIMS and their families.
Eli @ 166
uh…..yeah.
iirc, Lorena went for the banana……
spocko @ 156
Thank you, spocko, glad you dropped into the Lake tonight and posted this.
Shirley Bannister is bad, bad news. Right up there with Olsen-Shuvalov. Make them earn their ill-gotten booty.
Eli @ 147
That is merely one of her powers, Eli – Oversight.
And frankly, anyone with a mouthful of oatmeal-covered marbles would be more than a match for Superduperbush, ’speaking’-wise.
;>)
Fern @ 162
It’s all good! Holistic is the only way.
I will predict that two years from now, VT will have a very holistic program where anyone feeling alone, or crying out, will not have to go far to find some help, companionship, support groups of sympathetic peers, etc.
Nothing like a tragedy to find open hearts toward healing.
America’s macho culture can be quite the impediment, though.
Look at our Boy Emperor. He is from Connecticut and he is always looking for the Cowboy/gun solutions. He’s sure to fix the world, soon, eh?
darkblack @ 170
I think “Wax-Man” sounds like a pretty terrifying supervillain too.
rwcole @
161
Up here in the Northern Rockies, some people carry handguns when backpacking in the wilderness areas in case of encounters with bears and mountain lions. Personally I rely on pepper spray, but I understand the desire the keep large predators at a safe distance.
The medications given are supposed to be used in tandem with therapy and monitoring by the doctors. If the person is stable than most of the time there is no problem. Which is usually the cast. All antidepressants nowadays are clearly labeled to watch out for the deep depression or suicidal thoughts. I know this becuase i dispense them every day in my job.
If no one is talking to this person? It does no good to get them out of that deep depression or change it to get things back on an even keel.
Isolation by society is the likely culprit, sadly. One of the nastier sides of the underbelly of this country, that. I’ve gone through it myself, but i never needed anti deprssants. I was too stubborn to let it take over.
And yes, those commentators dont’ hvae a smidgen of sense. Total and complete idiots. *sighs*
Shortly after the VT story broke, I asked in a post how long it would be before we heard the conceal-carry rant from the wingnuts.
By the time I finished typing, Bush had made his first comment on the shootings, which began with his bit about American’s right to bear arms.
Now my question has been completely answered. It took about 24 hours for the machine to gear-up.
So here’s my next question:
Why is it that every time there is a crisis like this, the people who DO have assault weapons, and DO have body armor, and ARE trained to use them, stand behind trees and wait for the shooting to stop before entering the scene? (I’m referring of course to the fascist-like Blackshirts we pay to protect us, and who are too fearful to confront “two hand guns for gosh sake” with their military grade artillery)
It happened at Columbine, it happened at VTech, and it happened on 911.
And the response is always the same…we need to arm-up.
BobbyG @
104
As a strict constructionist, I will argue to the death that the right to keep and bear smooth-bore, muzzle-loading black powder muskets shall not be abridged. Along with horse-drawn cannons.
And the response is always the same…we need to arm-up.
If we just have *enough* people with guns, the odds are that *one* of them will do something. We just haven’t reached that critical mass yet.
oddmommy @ 168
I thought bananas are usually a little bigger than, say, Our Chicken-Hawk-In-Chief’s apparent manhood.
I think he has what is know as a Napoleon Complex. His gun is his phallic symbol, eh?
darkblack @ 169
Oatmeal-covered marbles? Makes me think of my (dear departed) uncle’s cranky remarks about Marlon Brando’s acting.
Yeah, I’d love to see Marlon Brando pushing the crooked boss, Little Boots, off the pier into the dirty river water On The Waterfront.
Eli @ 173
Perhaps a bee suit…His long proboscis probing for the sweet nectar of corruption.
;>)
The NRA knows that this is it’s chance- it was on the verge of becoming irrelevant cause dems aren’t fightin any more on gun issues- now we’ve got a mass killing and the NRA will be crankin up the presses with the “send us yer cash or they’ll take away yer guns” message. Totally predictable.
dreamcatcher @ 64
I have a friend in the country who hunts on my property & owns 22 guns. He’s the second nicest male I ever met in my 3-score years, a real stand up person. So let’s make sure we don’t get too carried away with the gun-toting cliches.
correction to me @ 176:
should have said:
By the time I finished typing, Bush’s spokesperson had made his first comment on the shootings, which began with the bit about about American’s right to bear arms.
lolo @ 31
Likewise, I wonder whether Acc*tane was involved.
darkblack @
181
Sorry but a correction. Wax-man is a superhero. Able to use his wax to freeze the bad guys in place so they can’t do bad things anymore.
dakine01 @ 185
We were using the Republican perspective, the one where Dubya is a *snort* superhero.
I believe there is collusion on the part Of Rep. Waxman and the Speaker on the matter of George Bush, Rove and the rest.
Karl rove is laughing his sick sorry ass off.
A non-american green card resident just handed him the stick that will beat the dems up one side of the country and down the other.That stick is the dems insistance on pushing gun control.
Just watch,there will be a serious attempt,which may be succesful{I doubt it}calling for hand gun registration.this will be a major presidential speech area…ect.But if congress acts,guess what happens?
Remeber the “assault weapons ban”which should have been called the scarey looking weapons ban?Hard fought…lots of dems had their arms twisted by chuck shumer{sp?} to pass that POS legislation.lots of people thought…Oh,The voters will think this is good thing…no problem…those right wingers and the nra are out of step with the public…
the result? THEY LOST THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE…for the first time in 40 Years…
think about that..
Now their going to pee on that bob-wire fence agin ’cause they dont think its electrified …..again…and get their asses blown into next week.By people who read the second amendment to say they have the right to keep and bear arms.
And there are a lot of them.Thats why the cadidates will treat this the same way porcipine fuck…real carefully
I am a registered independent.I belive in enforcement of the laws that exist.I also belive one of the things that keeps my house ,and the members of my family safe at night is the firearm by my bed,for “things that go bump in the night”Dont give me the B.S. that I am more likely to be hurt by my weapon.I can show you the statistics that show you to be wrong…and then it just boils down to whose statistics we look at,and whose bias you want to belive….Do you think the bad guys are going to line up and register all their nice and shiney 9mm?
But if the dems want to pee on that fence again,go ahead.
Thats why the dems have been quiet about gun control.
Donning my flame proof undies….
Gun solutions simply give our macho culture a high visibility non-solution…
The institutions of our culture need to be more sensitive, and less money hungry, starting with the evangelical hate mongers, and we will be well on our way to solutions to VT type tragedies.
There are many people in any society who need some nurturing, sensitivity and comfort. This is hard to do when a good deal of our money and resources go toward killing an invisible enemy called “terrorism” in the name of Pat Robertson and Jerry Fallwells… and Chimpy’s god.
Hell, Chimpy thinks he is the second coming of god!
Eli @ 187
Eeeehhhwwww! What a NASTY alternate universe you are envisioning.
dakine01 @ 186
We’re in Bushzarroworld now, dakine01…Nothing is as it seems.
;>)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 188
And good on them for it.
I’m not a hunter. I target practice infrequently. Most in my family are hunters. I cannot see the thrill in killing animals and birds who scurry and fly through the woods. Although, I would hunt if that was the only way I could feed me and mine. But that’s not the case.
dakine01 @ 193
Damn right. ;0)
Because this needed to be seen again:
Utah Ute @ 67
Utah Ute, would you mind if I passed this around? This is the definitive answer to the “if only the kids had concealed-carry permits…”.
darkblack @ 192
Unfortunately, we have been in that world for six years now.
That’s right, we’ll use the Archie Bunker solution:
“The only way to stop these airline hijackings is to arm the passengers.”
dakine01 @ 196
Ever see the Republicans’ “Darth Nancy” video? Ugh.
Well, there are plenty of guns in the army and if these right-wing douche bags want to get their rocks off and prove how manly they are, I am sure there is a recruitment office very near each one of them.
Short of them proving their “heroism” they can STFU
snuffy @ 189
Actually, one set of those statistics would be wrong. Believing in it is not so much a matter of choice or bias as it is dishonesty or willful ignorance.
Snuffy: Utah Ute’s already replied to you, in essence.
And the more urbanized areas get, the less likely the citizens are to tolerate military-style weapons.
The shooter wasn’t using deer hunting rifles. He wasn’t a sportsman. His arms were good for one thing only: Killing other humans.
So let me get this straight. More people carrying guns will lower the incidence of gun violence. Wow! Up really is down in their world isn’t it.
I teach at a state university and the last thing I want is for all of my students to be armed. I can only imagine in my nightmares the chaos and carnage that would ensue if they all opened fire in a situation like this. Mind you this is in Montana and many of my students have grown up around guns and are fairly good shots.
Phoenix Woman @ 201
Well, there are two separate issues, really. One is the right to own, and the other is the right to carry. The former can be argued on home defense and sportsman grounds, but the second is just irrational IMO.
DrDick @ 204
Not to mention the day before course evaluations are due….
Even in the hands of trained professionals
Who said the NRA never heard of the Overton Window?
And Derbyshire is just suffering from a deep, impenetrable illness.
Thanks Eli.
Nice post Eli. Good to see you on the front page again.
Eli,
I am 100% with you. Guns scare me; I would not want to own one, or have one in my home.
I did go skeet shooting once with a friend of mine in High School. It was not a bad experience, and I have never been traumatized directly by gun violence.
But America’s obsession with guns is just sick, IMHO. It is a bit of left-over pioneer mentality, a bit of pre-civilization bravado.
I recognize that our police need to be armed to preserve the public order, but that doesn’t mean that every single officer must be armed to the teeth at all times. I like the British “Bobbies” who were unarmed and trained in peace-making first.
One of my big disappointments with Howard Dean is that he caved in on gun control. I realize that he had bigger fish to fry at the time, but on that issue, he had no backbone.
The crazy thing is, the polls are against the NRA. There is no reason for ordinary citizens to own unregistered military assault rifles. There is no reason for resident non-citizens to be able to freely buy any kind of gun, especially not one in which the serial number had been filed off.
The saddest thing is that most gun violence in the U.S. is not between strangers, but between people who know each other. Here’s the statistics:
But I’m afraid none of this will convince anyone who’s been raised on NRA propaganda.
Bob in HI
montag @ 205
“Please do not fire your weapon at the ceiling if you need to use the restroom. Raising your hand is quite sufficient. Plus the mathematics class upstairs has been taking casualties.”
Montag:
Actually I am more concerned about the day after grades are posted. :)
snuffy @ 187
Look, I live with a lifelong hunter; I have family members who are ex-military and hunters, too. While I’m not personally crazy about guns and wouldn’t use one, I can understand the average American of flyover country and their concern about gun rights.
I think Howard Dean said it best: Gun control is a local issue. What works in Montana doesn’t work in NYC and vice versa.
That’s in alignment with my own values; it’s entirely different in an urban environment like the greater Detroit Metro area than in the wilds of my home state’s Upper Peninsula (with population density of about 250,000 people across an area half the size of Florida). Detroit needs tighter controls — and there is no good reason anybody should be hunting in Detroit. But in the UP, hunting supports many families, putting meat on their tables. Totally different situations within the same state, needing totally different levels of control.
And the VT shootings demonstrated that whatever the local laws are in VA, they aren’t working in the vicinity of Blacksburg. Somebody sold a foreign national living in a densely populated student environ an unregistered handgun — hello? This isn’t a hunter supporting his family, nor is this a person in a high crime urban area with need for personal protection. The gun seller needs to to bear some responsibility here, and if there’s no law to encourage this, then the locale of Blacksburg needs to deal with it since they know their community’s needs best.
Someone ask bush if he would speak at a college that let college kids walk around with concealed weapons. After he says yes ask him if he would let his audience have concealed guns when they are in the room with him. After he says yes again ask him if he would feel safe taking questions before an audience that hasn’t been screened for only loyal bushies. Never mind an audience with concealed weapons. The rest of us have to deal with living a non prescreened life. A non prescreened life filled with loyal bushies who are always on the TV and Radio saying Liberals, Blacks, Jews, Illegal Imigrants etc should be shot and or killed. A world where loyal bushies protect the rights of everyone even people on antideppression meds to have guns! A world where somehow criminals can still get guns very easily despite 9/11.
One piece of news that got little coverage today was the shooting of two secret service agents by another at the White House. The President was off makin his speech- but for some reason a secret service guy had his gun out (polishing it?) and it went off and wounded two of his buds.
Puesto @ 123
No, VT isn’t a particularly fundie school. There are students there from all over the state.
Phoenix Woman @ 202
That is what a pistol is for.{it also makes cute holes in a target @75 feet,oh,I live in the woods,,,have you ever seen a mountain lion by moonlight? I have.It lets you know that there is still a lots of animals that consiter YOU food.
Thanks, newtonusr, ccmask, Bob (great stats, too).
I am no friend of the gun, needless to say.
Texas Betsy @
70
I don’t like Mondays.
Folks, this issue ain’t so black and white as the wingnuts paint it, nor as it is being painted here by the majority of you.
There are vicious animals loose in the world who arm themselves and go after the innocent. When they finally get around to you, you want to have a means to defend yourself.
Sure, the righties over-emphasize the degree to which having a gun will allow you to survive the crisis, but the left side of the argument is just as egregious in its absolute failure to propose a satisfactory answer to the question of what are you supposed to do when it is your turn to be victimized.
I may get hurt even if I have a gun when I get attacked by a vicious animal or animals, but I will have that gun and will not go down easy. I’ve already been victimized when I didn’t have a weapon. I won’t repeat that experience. Being helpless and under the control of an animal is as bad as it gets.
DrDick @ 212
It’s been long enough since I was teaching that that was not my first thought. But, recalling that time now, yes, it’s a good point. :)
rwcole @ 215
Seriously?!?!
unbelievable. who has more gun training than the SS? And they make mistakes. And they want to arm 18-21 year old college kids?
Amazing.
No. They don’t think that this will lower violence. They don’t really care about that. They want more guns so that they can instant vengeance on the people who are the shooters.
They say that it will mean fewer dead, but what they really want is to have those guns in their pants so that people won’t mess with them when they want to be an asshole. They wording of the “kill bills” which they call the “stand your ground” bills are very clear. If someone makes you feel threatened, you have the right to blow them away.
This is the strategy right now. Work the fear angle. That always sells.
Armed students. Yes, they are never over excited about things.
“What do you mean I’m getting a C? Maybe Mr. Glock doesn’t WANT a C. Should I ask Hr. Glock what he wants? Would you like to talk to my little friend?”
rwcole @ 215
See my comment @ 207 for link.
Maybe I’m just cynical (okay, I’m DEFINITELY cynical), but I think it should it be at least as difficult to buy a handgun as it is to vote.
Rayne @ 213
Thank you…point made,it is a LOCAL issue.Eagle creek ore,is not a virgina school campus
spocko @ 222
Or perhaps we should consult with Professor Smith and Professor Wesson.
You know, that’s a very cute superhero.
Eli @ 227
This is exactly why I do not want all my students armed. I get enough grief over grades without the shootout at the OK Corral every semester.
Long ago Golda Meir said the war between Israel and the Palestinians would continue so long as the women valued the fight longer than their own children.
In America, it’s also probably true that the killing will continue so long as people value their guns more than their children.
Is this Traditional Family Values?
Rayne @ 213
I agree. That’s why I thought NYC’s sting operations in VA were a good step in that direction. VA, of course, said FU to NYC.
Eli @
178
Got it! Thanks Eli, knew it was something scientific like that. (wink)
Maybe you can answer me this one, too: We are dis-arming our primary schools with metal detectors in K-12. Now (based on the quotes up top) there are calls for concealed-carry on our college campuses. So when does the transition take place? Do we issue a Glock w/shoulder holster upon graduation from high school, or do we issue them at admission to an acredited university? And what about correspondence school enrollees? They could probably contribute to the national critical mass, no?
(winking again)
While there is no excuse for violence of the kind that took place at VT. I just went through hundreds of slides over at MSNBC at VT. I did not see one slide of another Asian student, not one. VT looks very very white.
Wonder if the shooter had been hassled or mistreated?
TRex @
228
it looks suspiciously like tom hanks in his Bosom Buddies phase
Toby Martin @
220
Toby — I don’t recall seeing you post here often. Do you know the backgrounds or experiences of many of the commenters here? There are a number of us who’ve been victimized . Your response to your victimization is your own; many of the rest of us have developed our own.
In my case, I refuse to be turned into a weapon-carrying mirror of a criminal; their behavior needs to be modified. Not mine.
kathleen @ 232
Actually, there was an Asian student photographer for the campus paper who got jumped and wrestled to the ground by campus cops because he fit the description. Also, it sounded like he was maybe a little bolder than most of the other students, probably because he was trying to get a shot (the other kind of shot).
That photo is perfect.
kathleen @ 233
MSNBC showed pictures of some of the victims and one of the victims was an Asian boy.
Toby:
What if the cops — or other would-be good guys — mistake you for a crook and start shooting at you?
Here’s Utah Ute’s story from around comment #68 or so:
oddmommy @ 169
Lorena would take care of the Bush administration’s arrogance …fast.
kathleen @ 233
Actually, with something like 25,000 students, Tech is very diverse. Lots of kids from Northern VA attend there, and NoVA is one of the most diverse areas around.
Toby Martin @ 220
Been there done that still got scar tissue.Your responce is what every person hopes their own will be when loved ones are threatened by violent animals,be they 2 legged or 4.I have been the victem in the past.Not again>
UptownNYChick @ 222
Seriously. One was shot in the foot, the other took a shrapnel hit to the face. They’ll both be OK, luckily.
Yupper.
One of the unspoken issues in this continuing controversy is profit motive. The gun manufacturers use the NRA to promote demand (and relaxed gun laws), and that demand drives production. There are a great many handguns which seem to wind up on the black market because the manufacturers are flooding the states with lax gun laws (Alabama, for instance) with a volume far in excess of what can be legitimately sold in such states.
Anything that increases sales with a fixed production capacity is a productivity increase.
One of the unfortunate aspects of this argument is that for every one legitimate use of a handgun, there are dozens of illegitimate uses, and gun production fuels both.
That makes a much stronger case, to my mind, for a regulatory paper trail and reasonable background checks (last year, about 800,000 handguns used in crimes were sent to the FBI for tracing), and if the gun owners refuse to accept those conditions as a condition of ownership, they’re only assisting the manufacturers, rather than themselves.
Gunga Djinn on 232. Great point.
How cool are these NRA types about guns in inner city schools/universities? And why the restrictions on Ages? I mean a lot of 12-18 year olds need protection.
What if that guy came to a middle school or grade school? They can’t all afford armed guards and the kids could be the ones to save the day!
(of course I don’t believe this but I can carry stuff to its extreme. It’s what they do all the time. Can’t have any rule on assault weapons because it will lead to they taking all their weapons!
Why limit the guns for kids? Old enough to drive at 16, old enough for a Glock and a CCW!
Puesto @ 123
I wonder if anyone will be asking if Cho was abused or hassled by other students? I wonder?
I don’t much like guns. I’ve had the benefit of the “one-eyed-stare.” Dude got off two shots and didn’t hit anything but sailboat fuel. He did not get a third shot, and I was unarmed. He was a big ‘ol wussy, a foot taller than me and flinging bullets.
As tragic as the events in Virginia are I found something more tragic the other morning. The initial report ended with the Ausralian PM expressing his condolances. This was followed by a 30 second annoucement that the bodies of 51 executed Iraqis were found that morning in the streets of Bagdad. End of story. This and more happens everyday and as “they” like to say they are but commas in history. Aren’t all lives equal? Before the Iraq war began someone put a sign over the freeway that said, ” If I fear my neighbor can I kill them?”
TRex has some Feminasser upstairs
I wonder if anyone will be asking if Cho was abused or hassled by other students? I wonder?
Heard an FBI profiler on one of the networks today saying something about Cho’s writing resembling that of the boys who committed the same atrocity at Columbine.
Sspocko @
75
Spocko – they are sick and nuts.
We who do not die according to their values their are weak underlings.
raven @
120
I’m ex-USAF, and it’s true.
If it isn’t brainwashing, what would compel me, years after leaving the service, years after dealing with anything or anyone mliitary at all, to stand reflexively when an officer entered my office. I did not think about it. My body went into autopilot.
The TI’s in basic methodically created and sustained the conditions to alter my thinking. Taking you from your home. Taking away your civilian clothes. Your possessions. Even your hair (for the guys–girls had to get it off their collars). Slowly, but surely, they stripped from you everything and everyone you knew, and a good deal that was YOU, cleaning the slate, to inculcate the military in you.
I’m sorry, but that’s brainwashing.
Brainwashing isn’t necessarily evil. It’s what you replace the “old” with that is or isn’t evil.
Kathleen said
>Good News about Israel being open to negotiations with Arab nations
http://www.ynetnews.com/articl…..55,00.html
Oklahoma responded
I remain skeptical. What does Israel mean by “moderation”? I doubt it includes a Palestinian homeland. If it was right to grant a homeland to the Jewish people in 1948, why then is not right to afford the same dignity to the Palestinian people today? Of course I realize I am probably not aquainted with all the dynamics.
“Olmert expected to tell Abbas in Jerusalem that Israel may participate in meetings of work groups set up by Arab League to advance peace process; ‘Israel rejects Saudi peace initiative, but welcomes moderation displayed by Arab countries in Riyadh summit,’ Prime Minister’s Office official says.”
kathleen to Oklahoma
Israel is beginning to feel the pressure. With Mearsheimer and Walts “Israeli Lobby” paper http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html
Carter’s excellent book “Palestine Peace: NOt Apartheid”
The four part series reported by Carl Cameron in regard to Israeli Spying on the U.S. This four part series was aired on Fox in the fall of 2001 after 9/11 and Camera, Jinsa, ADL forced Fox to take it off of their website. If you have never seen this report it is an absolute. http://www.informationclearing…..le7545.htm
Let’s hope that Israel begins to really consider abiding by Un resolution 242. The I/P conflict needs to be talked about honestly in this country. We need to support both the Israeli and Palestinian peoples. Not just Israel!
Pro Palestine Pro Israel based on the 67 boundaries!
We need to pressure Israel to begin to play bY the same rules that they want their neighbors to abide by. If you have never read this document from the Iaea website “Israels nuclear capabilities and threat. Have a read
http://209.85.165.104/search?q…..ea_org.pdf israeli nuclear capabilities threat to peace in the middle east. Iaea&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=us
THE NPT TREATY.
I hate to take it out of the favored “Topic A territory” for either the right or the left, but it ain’t about guns. You have to go further up the chain.
This individual had a history of stalking. His roommates had reported him to the school and police authorities and no one took it seriously. He had stalked 3 female students.
When he was confronted by his suite mates that this was inappropriate, that was the first time he said he would probably have to kill himself now (extreme self-punishment). Ask any LEO or psy professional and they will tell you, there is a strong correlation between homicide and suicide, it’s just a matter of direction of behavior, sometimes both occur.
Either separately, or taken together, these are instances that rise to the level of intervening with, or even Baker Acting an individual. But the stalked girls and the suite mates didn’t push beyond what they had already done because they didn’t want to cause ‘trouble.’ No one knows why the authorities did not act.
Our journalists should be barking up that tree.
Who was told and why did they not act. It is frustrating to hear his professor say that she did not get cooperation from authorities because “this individual hadn’t done anything that rose to the required level.”
Hunh??? Stalking, by definition, rises to the level.
Lastly, and before we go off on a witch hunt of people who are less talkative and are expressive through different avenues, stalking can be seen in people who are social (talkative) or not social (express by other forms). That’s why stalking is a more worthwhile, in terms of predictive value, differential warning sign.
Talk is cheap. Just look what 4 hours of talk radio (5 days a week) by one person got us — the Law of Diminishing Returns and an outcry of “Enough Already!”
Rather,
Objectification of other human beings is the telltale sign of danger, regardless of whether you’re an “innie” or an “outie”.
VT is one end of the spectrum.
Iraq is the other.
I’ve got a view of this is that is neither left nor right, but more well to the left of left, and I bow to none in my opposition to Bush and corporate fascism.
The problem here of course is that friends and teachers who recognized that the shooter was a disturbed and unhappy young man didn’t get him into social connection and counseling. Society is too fragmented… lonely isolated people crack up… and guns make their crack ups deadly for those around them. It’s a social and community disaster.
Once you’ve said that however, hey, the right wing fighting keyboardists have a point. People seem to think that you can have a non-supportive community with all sorts of support deficits… but when you allow that to exist, well shouldn’t people be trained and able to defend themselves with deadly force against deadly force?
Oh sure, you say a bunch of overgrown adolescent adults, drinking and fighting, but now with concealed guns in the mix is a mortality disaster… but if we’re willing to allow pyscho-social breakdown and toss into the mix unresolved cultural and socio-economic tensions and if we remain unwilling to control gun ownership, then the conclusion that people should at least be able to defend themselves against the chaos has a certain inexorable force of logic.
I used to be your normal gun controlling liberal…. the further to the left I drift, the more the logic of the right on this point makes sense….
There is a certain degree of anarchy in the world, and we might prefer to organize society against it… but we are penetrated by forces that keep us disorganized as a society and as communities while at the same time enabling maniacs and unstable types to own guns. Maybe I should, as a rational actor, a leftist, as one who is well to the left of “liberal”, as one who sees both the corporate fascist central government and the local “militias” and the random gun nuts around me as potential threats, consider gun ownership.
I don’t like it, but there is a logic to it.
I’m just sayin’.
What would happen to the innocent armed student in a barricaded room when the SWAT Team broke in?
TribeScribe, prevention is *always* preferable. I would say the system broke down, but I’m not sure there even was a system.
tbsa @ 250
No excuse for extreme violence! The families of these students and professors have to be in complete and utter shock.
Go check out all of the slides of students at VT, at MSNBC not one Asian. This kid had to feel isolated, and was obviously terribly troubled. His parents must be devastated, knowing that their son was so terribly disturbed. To commit such a horrendous act one would have to be insane or horribly abused or both!
Remember the Amish in that slaughter of their children by that madman. I had never witnessed such forgiveness in all of my life. They contacted the madmans family and invited them to their services.
BLESS CHO’S SOUL! AND PRAY FOR HIS FAMILY THEY MUST BE RIPPED TO PIECES
Al Jazeera gets toe hold in Toledo, Ohio
http://www.voanews.com/english…..N=58939223
kathleen, in the early 90’s, in the San Gabriel Mountains near Pasadena, there was a giant, Santa Ana-fueled wildfire. It got several houses and burned thousands of acres – came within a mile of our house.
Turns out it was started by a homeless Chinese immigrant. He had been working construction, paid under-the-table, of course, and had been badly injured in the head, on the job. The construction company booted him and he ended up in the forest. He was badly burned in the fire.
When the papers reported the story, we expected a big anti-immigrant thing. What we got instead was incredible empathy for the guy and prayers for his healing.
Mommybrain @ 260
Yes! This Cho kid had to be one fucked up and hurting puppy inside!
Eli @ 257
I think there were fragments of a system. A professor recognized this kid was struggling and schooled him separately from others. She’d clearly had conversations with the counseling staff and together they were cognizant of “student civil rights.”
Yes, VPI is huge, I’ve visited friends there.
25,000, plus 10K staff, and impressively diverse. The town is mostly the campus. There is a sense that the hugeness of this campus might have contributed to his anonymity, however, at the same time, one would think that the law enforcement officials would be that much more attuned to the harbingers of danger.
In my experience in human resources I can tell you, whether you’re dealing with an innie or an outie, Stalking is the biggest red flag of a pending flash point.
We have to learn as much from this as possible.
I’m just saying, with all the variables in play, if you have to attend to something, stalking would be it.
imho, One of the possible blindspots of law enforcement is that in their line of work, relentless pursuit is a “good thing.”
That being said, whatever gaps there are in the system, It makes you wonder why people did not press the issue with area law enforcement. It makes you wonder why, after a professor and counseling staff raised the issue, did law enforcement NOT pursue?
imho that’s a major dynamic that is in play.
TribeScribe @ 262
“We get this kind of thing all the time. It’s probably nothing.”
That’s my guess.
Eli @ 263
xackly. just go back to what I said about blindspots. subtle — to be sure.
I’ve never understood the ‘arm everyone’ argument myself. It’s kind of like arguing that if there were more tennis balls in the world, there’d be less tennis.
Moreover, the argument assumes that everyone capable of arming themselves would in fact arm themselves. What if Virginia laws (already the most permissive in the land) permitted entirely unregulated gun possession and not everyone opted to carry? I’m betting that the vast majority of persons would choose not to arm themselves, even if they could, no questions asked. Is the next step in the argument mandatory arming?
Fuckin’ A, INstacracker:
A bunch of cold-eyed Yul-Brynner-in-”Westworld” students and profs stalking each other in the Ivy covered halls.
Is this a wingnut’s wet dream, or what?
The egghead libruls, holding Dodge City “walkdowns” in the corridors of the English Department…
Gimlet-eyed TA, to a flat-earth-society conservative, objecting to “The Miller’s Tale”:
“Smile, pardner, when you call Geoffrey Chaucer a porn-peddler…”
Blam! Blam!
Just think; all those namby-pamby lefties who keep ragging on george bush about the fucking-of-the-cluster in Iraq, could get their jollies as Clint Eastwood wannabes, and pack hoglegs to their Compartive Lit classes.
Why didn’t Jane, TRex, and Pachu think of this?
When I read righwing meatheads spouting the line “Well, if all the students and faculty had guns, this wouldn’t have happened” I can’t help but think back on the program I had seen on the History Channel about the notorious bank robbery that happened back in 1995 (if I recall, correctly). For those who haven’t seen it, basically it was the story of how two heavily armed maniacs, their bank robbery having gone seriously fubar, decided they were going to shoot it out with the cops. It went on for hours, about a dozen cops were wounded, the SWAT team was held at bay. Keep in mind, the police were pretty heavily armed,well trained, and they were still pinned down. Now Derbyshire chides a bunch of unarmed and frightened kids and faculty because they didn’t charge headlong into a confrontation with (at that time) an unknown number of shooters, armed with an unknown number of weapons? He’s a fucking psycho.
Eli @
137
George Washington sent Gen. Lincoln to Connecticut to disarm Chris Shay’s ancestor (and any associate) for taking guns into town and threatening magistrates. The open bearing of rifles was banned…and these were VETERANS of the revolution (trained militia) that had their weapons wrested from them. The argument was that they were not a WELL-REGULATED militia.
Shay’s Rebellion, and the Whiskey Rebellion were two of the reasons the Constitutional Convention were called…and the specific definition of who controls and disciplines militias and who appoints their officers is right there in the text.
Congress establishes the RULES of whom is in the militia, what they must do to be well-trained, etc.
If someone claims that they are in a “militia”, rather than a member of an insurrectionist group (the rationale of many of these nuts are that they are going to fight against the authorities), then they need to be in the National Gaurd…which regulates where and how they can handle their weaponry.
If they aren’t in the Well-Regulated Militia they could be considered as insurrectionary forces…private armies that have no standing in the Constitution.
Funny how the Pentagon and the C-In-C doesn’t use this logic in Iraq/Afghanistan…and give everyone a US issued automatic weapon. They seem to think that just the opposite is the best policy…THERE!
And I recall that that they actually have bought up weapons in Liberia, Haiti, and other hot spots to reduce the shootings.
Somalia and Lebanon, where everyone was armed to the gills seems to suggest that the “give guns to everyone” and the killings will stop…simply is illogical.
There’s quite a lot of research showing that gun violence increased astronomically after the Civil War when mass-produced and pistols carried home by disbanded soldiers. Many cities and towns on the frontier initiated gun bans…you had to turn in your gun at the Sheriff’s office upon entering town. Gun control has a long respected history in this country.
guns should be banned.
they’re for sissies.
everybody who could pick one up should be
*REQUIRED*
to carry a bazooka AND a flamethrower.
and drive a M-1 abrams tank.
Then we could have fought back!
that guy wouldn’t have had a chance.
hey, what if everybody/anyone could call in air strikes?
Hell, if they are so eager to walk around strapped why don’t they enlist and head over to Iraq. Plenty of opportunity there I hear.
Don’t ever tell me that guns aren’t part of the cause. No one ever heard of a drive-by stabbing.
The killer was clearly a nutter. And here’s the thing. If you want laws that permit ownership of firearms and are insistent that government oversight of gun ownership is slack, then the occasional nutter killing spree is presumably a price you find acceptable.
I’ll say it again: the killer was clearly a nutter. And here’s another thing. If you are a civil libertarian who hates big government and restrictions on the ownership of weapons, then demanding that something be done about identifying and isolating nutters before they can kill demands the sort of government oversight, money, bureaucracy and intrusion into people’s personal lives that you claim to abhor.
Permitting students to pack heat is not an answer to a random nutter killing on a campus. The crossfire will only create more tragedy.
Seeing as not all the facts are out, do these wackjob Chuck Norris wannabees know for a fact that none of the students tried to subdue the gunman?
Oh jesus fucking christ.
The solution to this is simple. Reduce the factors that lead to gun-related crimes.
This is how:
1) Subsidize education while modifying the education curriculum to include required courses such as financing 101 — how many people understand how credit affects them?
2) Eliminate poverty. Subsidize the fuck out of it. I don’t care if you have to build a shitload of cheap houses and put people in them — it’s a fucking start. If people are safe, secure and aren’t starving, while having their basic needs met, then they’re less prone to lashing out irrationally.
3) Legalize *all* drugs while putting a hefty tax on them — use the tax proceeds to fund rehabilitation and educational centers / materials for those that are addicted and wish to quit. We need to stop treating drug users as common criminals — they’re not.
4)Instead of trying to legislate the guns, why not control the ammunition? (Either that or a direct repeal of the 2nd amendment; which sure as shit ain’t gonna happen)
I don’t know why those idiotic right wingers seem to think they know what they’re talking about. “Yeah, we’ll just count between the bullets then walk up and punch the guy in the nuts.”
Uh.. If someone opened fire in public, the first response is usually shock. Unless, of course you’re trained in responding to these type of situations.
Fuck man. Why are people so fucking retarded and stupid? I don’t understand it. We spend like a shitload of our money on the Military-Industrial complex.. to what end? To protect our freedom? Pft. Fucking please. We’re just advancing our imperalistic agenda, which is to control and consolidate as many oil pipelines / suppliers that we can. We’re fucking addicts and we run over everyone else just because we have a strong military force.
That’s bullshit.
Start using some of the fucking money that we spend on killing people, and FUCKING USE it for domestic purposes. This is the United States of America, not the United World of America or whatever. We need to start taking care of our citizens at home first before we start taking on the rest of the world.
It’s common sense 101.
I am fucking crying right now guys.
(((((((DeafByPills)))))))
Hugs coming your way.
There is this tendency of the Right to think in terms of drama, hence the “why didn’t someone jump him” meme.
However, he DOES have a point, a single guy with 2 small caliber arms does not a firing squad make. A chair thrown at his head might have derailed the madness. Not that I, nor any of the keyboard commandos could have done anything but pissed our pants when the bullets are flying. I do know that calling attention to yourself in this type of situation can very well mean death.
I wasnt’ there, nor have I ever been there so I haven’t a clue what it’s like. The closest I’ve been to this type of disaster is a few (real) emergency landings in a helicopter. But it’s taken me decades of maturity to even come to grips with my thoughts on mortality.
It’s easy for us to sit here, armchair warriors, and say it could have been stopped. But the fact is, it could have been, by any number of means. One of them is the seemingly endless toll that the game of love takes on all of us.
We should not overlook the 400lb gorilla I have YET to see discussed, the origin of his madness, LOVE. By reports I’ve seen, he was apparently distraught over his lost love. We are SO afraid to broach the issue that we all must admit we have sunk to despair over. Man or woman, we have all been subject to the abuse of the Other in the course of pursuing a mate.
It is who we are, how we procreate, and could be the end of us if we are not willing to put aside taboos preventing honest debate about it.
That and we should make it mandatory that people go to therapists. ;) (joking)
DeafByPills @ 277
Unfortunately, that runs smack up against one’s constitutional rights. On the flip side, Reagan closing a mess of State mental institutions and turning mentally ill patients out on the street did no one any favors either. Doing so essentially created the homeless problem. Once they are on the street, you can’t get them back where they can get the help they need. And many do need help.
This is a problem I’ve dealt with first hand because here in Palm Beach County the homeless appear to be serving as a reservior for Malaria when it is brought in by migrant workers.
When they are ill, homeless are screened at the feeding sites and are brought in for treatment but the Public Health Unit is unable to hold them due to civil rights laws, so they wander off, without being properly treated. And this applies not just to Malaria, but to any illness.
@DeafByPills
Your comment about providing housing is supported by the latest research on the homeless, and I hope that gets implemented ASAP: Provide a safe living space and the rest falls into place.
All this talk about guns and gun safety, etc. and this morning’s news has an article about a gun going off behind the W.H. gates. That gun was being carried by a Secret Service agent.
VietVet67 @ 280
Yeah, I found that curious too. I’m thinking accidents happen a lot more than is generally known by the -SS-.
It’s unfortunate that this has degenerated to a splurting of uninformed rage. I have trained in disarming and avoiding handgun fire, and despite those who think it improbable in this situation, I can say there would have been far fewer deaths if the shooter had been rushed. It is all well and good to hover over the shooter’s machinations now, but that does the dead no good at all.
This culture of commodification has produced ill-formed individuals in spades, and will continue to do so as long as it continues unchecked. As C. Wright Mills noted long ago, the primary value system in the U.S.A. is “pecuniary,” not human.
I have sat here for the last hour reading all the comments, remarks, solutions, etc, etc. And I have come the conclusion that, no one wants a solution to any of the good ole US of A’s social problems. Everyone is to blame for the countries ills, extreme left or right, conservative or liberal, pacifist, athiest, narcisist, asshole, sucmbag, homeless, rich or poor. We’s all to blame. If we cannot come together in LOVE, the enemies of our country will overcome us. So if your a pacifist, better hope your dead before this happens, as for the rest of youtes, you’ll be too busy fighting the good fight of left vs. right, liberal vs. conservative. So carry on!
Scenario One:
Students in classrooms hear gunshots in the hall. Armed students rush out into the halls to “deal with it.” Armed students end up shooting each other.
Scenario Two:
Students in classroom hear gunshots in the hall. Armed students in classroom deploy their weapons pointed at the door, ready to “deal with” any armed gunman who might enter the classroom. Armed students in classroom shoot an innocent student who enters while trying to flee the gunman (who is still out in the hall).
Scenario Three:
Students in classroom hear gunshots in the hall. Armed students in classroom deploy their weapons pointed at the door, ready to “deal with” any armed gunman who might enter the classroom. Armed students in classroom shoot another armed student — not the attacking gunman — who enters while trying to flee the gunman (who is still out in the hall).
None of these are good outcomes.
It’s a crying shame.
The shooting, the screwed up kid on psychiatric meds, the crappy response time of campus cops and EMS, the piss poor communications on campus, everything.
I know I’m going to get slammed by UberLefties and Wingnuts alike for this but here it is from the middle of the road.
On the subject of firearms purchasing. Hui was 23, legal age to purchase and own a handgun. There is no requirement for mental evaluation in the firearms background check, form 4473. Does anyone here want the Feds to know their medical history let alone some guy in a strip mall? Want to give up even more of your right to privacy to the Feds?
Prohibitions of firearms on campus is neither a good nor a bad idea. It is primarily to limit the possibility of firearms on campus purely as a loss prevention issue as settling a civil suit is EXPENSIVE.
GT, in post 284 presents three scenarios. He misses a few, but then GT’s point is pretty obvious in that “guns are bad”. GT missed the Fourth scenario; Armed students wait in the classroom and when an unarmed student enters, they do not fire and allow the unarmed student to enter and hide with them.
Fifth scenario; the armed student enters the classroom and the armed students open fire, hitting the original shooter. Expended rounds penetrate other classrooms or potentially occupied spaces possibly endangering other persons hidden therein.
Sixth scenario; The original shooter enters the room and is shot by the hidden armed students ending the shooting.
Seventh scenario; The police enter the classroom to find the armed students and a very tense standoff ensues until the armed students hiding in the room are all disarmed, handcuffed and separated for questioning until the police can sort out who are the good guys and who are the bad guys.
Armed people scare the cops. They are in favor of firearms bans as it makes them safer they feel. If someone has a weapon (gun, knife, club, anything) they are a bad guy to be dealt with accordingly.
10-12% of the population has adverse reactions to SSRI drugs. Induced psychosis, rage, paranoia among the symptoms. The pharmaceutical companies reaped $250,000.00 a day on SSRI medications alone in 2005. Are we as a Nation over medicating?
Hui also had bomb making materials in his room. If he couldn’t have bought a gun, would it have been better if he had used bombs to kill other students?
Hui’s english instructor referred him to counselling after reading some of his graphic writing. Did the instructor alert the university health center staff? Did Hui ever go see them? Was that referral ever followed up? Did the other students who thought he was weird ever wonder if he could use a “welfare check” by university police, just to talk to him and see if he was feeling okay?
It isn’t the gun, it’s the people. People stink because we would rather do the easy thing and not the hard thing and take care of each other and be there for each other, even if that person who needs us is the “weird” one. We are too wrapped up and selfish to see when and where we could help. We volunteer because it looks good on a resume or college application. We don’t help because it’s the right thing to do, but because it helps us get a leg up. We’ve fallen so far into the Reichwing economic trap that we believe in their consumptive world view and lost our souls.
Like I said, I feel bad for those lost and for those who have lost and are going to lose. Everyone from Hui to his victims to the poor guy who ownes the shop who legally sold him the pistol. Not one of them will ever be the same.