
(Red flag photo via Andrea Sanchez Martinez.)
The shooting at Virginia Tech yesterday raised a lot of difficult and as yet unanswered questions for a whole lot of folks yesterday. This morning's news brings a much higher casualty number than we knew about yesterday, but it will take a lot more time to sift through all of the clues of the young man's life who pulled the trigger so many times in such a horrific, violent incident.
As someone who spent a good deal of her legal career trying to understand and work with violent juvenile and adult offenders, this is a particularly troubling incident. There are so many unanswered questions at this point, but all of my study and training in these issues raises so many more that investigators will be trying to answer.
This morning's Today Show, of all places, had an excellent segment on some of the "red flag" warning signs that folks in communities all across our country ought to be aware of — things that have, repeatedly, shown up in violent incident after violent incident that have been studied by law enforcement and mental health professionals for years. This is information that needs a wider distribution outside the law enforcement community, and I wanted to do a little bit on it this morning as a sort of public service while we all wait for better answers from Blacksburg.
So, with the understanding that for every rule there are about a million exceptions, and that you are likely to see them in any criminal case that ever touches your life. And the knowledge that some or none of this may apply directly to the shooter in Blacksburg — I just wanted to share a few thoughts with you about identifying potentially violent actors who may be in need of intervention of some sort — for their own protection as much as that of the community.
There are certain common threads that I saw a lot in working with abuse and neglect cases, juvenile offenders and adult criminals over the years of my practice. And they were similarly identified by the psych professionals with whom I worked on a day to day basis, who provided therapy and evaluation services for us in particular cases — and in the literature about these sorts of issues and at seminars that I attended. In particular, a seminar on violent juvenile offenders that I attended — run by the OJJDP — during the time I was a prosecutor, helped to hone in on the psychological aspects and root causes, as well as to indentify certain "red flag" behaviors that are common across the board in violent incidents. These include, but are not limited to:
– Animal abuse, especially torture and physical violence of any kind.
— Arson/fire starting.
— A history of sexual abuse, either as a victim or a perpetrator.
— Anti-social/loner tendencies.
— Outbursts of anger.
— A history of bedwetting beyond young childhood range.
— Language delays, causing difficulty in comprehension or expression.
— An obsession with firearms or other explosive devices or weaponry.
— Abuse toward younger siblings or other family members.
— Violence in the home.
— Obsession with violent video games, or other violent media or literature.
— Drug and/or alcohol abuse, especially where it results in violent behavior while intoxicated.
— Truancy/delinquency issues.
— A home life that includes maltreatment, neglect and other emotional abuse issues, as well as exposure to physical abuse, to themselves or to others in the home.
This is by no means a complete list — there are a number of other factors as well, and any one or more of these factors may be present without seeing a child have issues with sociopathic or other violent behavior. But they should raise concerns for adults around that child, and should at the least say that the child needs some extra intervention to be certain that the behavior and questions raised do not spiral downward into more violent behavior. This includes aggressive mental health intervention, as well as family counseling, where appropriate, because so often mental health problems go hand in hand with a lot of the red flag problems raised above.
With years of experience in working with at risk kids, from very young childhood forward to dealing with the parents of these children, the thing which stands out in my mind is how little work we do with abused children at the front end of this cycle the way our criminal system is currently structured – and how much good early intervention can truly do for a child to keep them out of the juvenile and adult criminal system as time goes forward. (And I say this knowing that West Virginia actually has a better abuse and neglect system than many states.) This is a discussion that I desperately want to see happen in this country, because the costs of incarceration — and the horrible impact that violent crime has on the victims who must face it — cannot continue to rise without us examining more effective means to combat these crimes at their root.
In all honesty, there are some offenders who simply cannot be rehabilitated, for whom incarceration is the best means of ensuring safety for the community and for the defendant. But that is not true for all offenders, and that is especially true for younger juveniles for whom effective and immediate psych and educational intervention can make a world of difference. (Not in all cases, but in a lot of them.) Far too often, once a juvenile offender moves to adult status, it is almost too late to work on the necessary changes for behavior and other issues — but if we can catch a child when he is very young in an abuse case and help to make his environment more steady and safe, or if we can work with a young juvenile offender before the behavior and problems spiral downward toward more and more violence, we can make a substantial difference. I don't mean to sound altogether cynical, but truly my experience has borne out that you are far more likely to make a difference if you catch the problem when the person is young.
All indications are that the shooter at Virginia Tech was an older student in his early 20s, but the questions that law enforcement will be asking will still be along some of these red flag lines as they work backward through the evidence to comprehend the reasons for this violent tragedy. Ultimately, any answers on this will not provide anything but a stepping off point for more questions for the families of the victims in this shooting. But I hope with this initial article to also raise some questions — and awareness — among our readers.
This is a starting point for conversation, not a complete list. But by having a better understanding of some of the things to look for — in your own kids, in their friends, in the kids at their school, in other folks with whom you have contact — perhaps this will give you a little insight into a difference you might be able to make in an at risk child's life. A lot of these kids live in chaotic, violent families, with no semblence of order or care. Not always, though. A lot of these kids are loners or socially inept in a lot of ways. But not always. For many of these kids, having an adult who cares about them and is willing to talk through some of these issues can make all the difference in the world.
What else has a big impact? Early intervention. If there is a family or a child about whom you are currently asking yourself some questions, please consider being more actively alert — or even talking with a school counselor or social work professional or a local police officer who may or may not have already had questions about that child as well.
Look, a lot of times you just have a kid who gets into the trouble that teenagers get into, and they outgrow it once they mature a bit more. But especially where you have a child who has issues with animal or physical abuse toward others, and/or issues with fire-starting? These are tendencies that we have seen over and over again in serial killers and in other sociopathic behaviors, and this should be a big red flag for you and others in your community.
When I was growing up, the moms and dads in our neighborhood all looked out for everyone's kids. If I did something wrong up the street, my mom heard about it before I made it home, and she was glad that some other parent had cared enough to let her know about whatever it was. We are all responsible for our own communities — looking the other way and hoping the ugliness goes away, or that someone else will take care of it so that you don't have to do so, does not solve the problem. Neither does just slapping a temporary band-aid on a much longer-term problem.
I hope that this is a start to a much more detailed conversation that we need to have in this country. At the very least, perhaps it will help out someone in some community with an at risk child who needs someone to reach out…today.



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Zed for Ned!
zed?
Yes, pay attention to red flags. However, as a survivor of a relationship gone bad (he killed himself, not me), let me assure you that this kind of thing can happen without any red flags.
Great post, Christy.
We are all in this life together. If more of us could remember this on a daily basis, much of life’s heartbreak could be averted. I firmly believe that.
thank you reddhedd.
this is very informative. i did not know such systematic work had been done.
And the more red flags that go up over a single individual, the higher the likelihood that they are seriously “at-risk” — and so are those around them.
If you aren’t “sure” about a particular kid, take your concerns to a professional. Let them help you sort it out, or (better yet) let them look into it personally. That’s what their training has prepared them to do, but they can’t do it if no one comes to them.
Thanks, Christy — Great, great post.
EXCELLENT post Christy.
As an educator and someone who has worked with abused children, I often have my eyes open for those indicators. But the system has nothing preventitive to offer. Nothing at all to offer until violence occurs.
EPU’d from previous — GUAM. The Guam US Atty firing needs to be looked at because they fired the guy, Black, who was the first to look into Abramof. This clearly is obstruction, a felony, and grounds for impeachment of Fredo, Bush; criminal prosecution of Rove. And so on.
http://www.alternet.org/rights/49535/
The legal problem — obstructing an investigation: Secondly, “if the attorneys were fired to interfere with a valid prosecution, or to punish them for not misusing their offices, that may well have been illegal.” “Fired San Diego U.S. attorney Carol Lam notified the Justice Department that she intended to execute search warrants on a high-ranking CIA official as part of a corruption probe the day before a Justice Department official sent an e-mail that said Lam needed to be fired,” Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) said on Sunday. Feinstein “said the timing of the e-mail suggested that Lam’s dismissal may have been connected to the corruption probe.” Congress has also called for an investigation of the removal of Frederick Black, the U.S. attorney in Guam, who was fired after he began investigating criminal lobbyist Jack Abramoff. “Anyone involved in firing a United States attorney to obstruct or influence an official proceeding could have broken the law. Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy (D-VT) said last week that if an attorney is fired “to stop an ongoing investigation, then you do get into the criminal area.”
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/…..-attorney/
In 2002, Black launched an investigation into Jack Abramoff’s “secret arrangement with Superior Court officials to lobby against a court reform bill then pending in Congress.” On Nov. 18, 2002, Black issued a grand jury subpoena to the Guam Superior Court to turn over all records involving the lobbying contract with Abramoff. The administration swiftly punished Black:
A day later, the chief prosecutor, US Attorney Frederick A. Black, who had launched the investigation, was demoted. A White House news release announced that Bush was replacing Black.
The timing caught some by surprise. Despite his officially temporary status as the acting US attorney, Black had held the assignment for more than a decade.
An internal Justice Department investigation concluded that the White House did not improperly retaliate against Black for raising allegations against Abramoff. But the probe into Abramoff’s activities in Guam died shortly after Black stepped down.
I’m afraid that this tragedy will not start a productive conversation.
The media and media consumers will generate and focus on the tabloid aspects of this case that are sure to be forthcoming, all in the pursuit of ratings and advertising dollars.
We need some real leaders around here that want to be proactive, opposed to current bunch opportunistic reactionaries hell-bent on self-preservation.
Great post, as usual Christy.
Thank you for providing the “upstream” preventive information. The US is definitely a downstream, retrospective nation in its policy and approach. And we aren’t generally tolerant, community-oriented and accepting, despite all our protestations to the contrary.
I have some experience in campus security issues.
A good resource is: http://www.securityoncampus.org
This site has the Clery statistics for each college and much more.
Morning, Christy! I just heard on NPR that the fuccubus in chief is going to attend the VT convocation this afternoon. NPR noted that now that the Presnit will be there the WH has taken over control of press relations. ’cause, you know, hafta spin it our way.
I like how Dana had to mention, yesterday, that Bush supports the right to bear arms. How tone deaf is this White House to use the tragedy to try and buck up the gun lobby?
The Diane Rehms show is focused on the V tech killings. E-mail questions of comments
drshow@wamu.org
Call in…1-800-433-8850
amen Reverend Peter !, a great, thoughtful, highly informative post Christy, thank you
I am predicting/perceiving that this whole case will have a lot more to do with domestic/dating violence extended to others in the vicinity than it does with anything else.
conniptionfit @ 12
I long for the day when there’s a President who believes that there is more to leadership than showing up at tragedies and claiming to pray.
Good post, Christie.
I hope you are correct, that even one tragedy
such as yesterday’s will be prevented by
recognition of these early signs followed by
intervention. We can only hope.
Mr. President, please don’t exploit this tragedy for political purposes. From AP:
Biodun @ 17
Well, Christy,
This ex-law enforcement guy is off to teach college. You’re right about “red flag” emotional issues being indicators. Being the host for a teen and older heavy metal band in my shop, I take these strange thinking kids one kid at a time. And try to put each kid into my own mind, reaching out.
Back when my son was in early grade school, he pushed and hit kids. We put him in counseling. It helped a lot. Before that, he liked to light matches. I gave him a place to do it and rules. A friend asked why I let him be a pyromaniac. I replied “better a pyromaniac than a repressed pyromaniac.” Eventually, he worked the match thing out.
Dumbwya at 13 — Well, to be honest, Perino was answering a press question about gun rights at the time — take a peek at the transcript to see the question that she was answering. It comes off an insensitive when you read it in a vacuum, but the question asked for that sort of answer. We shouldn’t jump on her for doing her job — that’s patently unfair.
For what it’s worth, I don’t think the gun arguments are going to go very far.
As it turns out, the killer was a resident alien, that is, he is not a citizen.
Virginia gun dealers have an abysmal record of selling guns to just about anyone who wants to get them. The city of New York has been grappling with this problem for some time as so many of the handguns that end up in criminal hands originate in VA. Perhaps this tragic case will force VA authorities to crack down. Terrible that it would take an incident in their own state to make this happen.
Dumbwya @ 13
I saw a comment in an earlier thread that this comment was an answer to a question that asked about gun ownership. I haven’t heard the question, and not sure if that excuses her comment, but it appearantly was not an off-the-cuff comment.
Just looking at the Christy’s red flag list, is it appearant to anybody else that a certain president fits in to several of these categories?
One more reason why early childhood programs that work with parents and encourage better parenting are so critical to future success and health of young adults. Young parents who may not have received good parenting themselves and been exposed to violence at home may be able to acquire better parenting skills while encouraging an emphasis on education for children. Anything that pries kids away from violent electronic games and broadcasting and improves their socializations must be a plus.
“Abortion and the Crime Rate“
“Did Roe v. Wade Abort Crime?“
may we observe that unplanned/unwanted pregnancies pave the way to red flag situations?
With all due respect, and acknowledging the grief of the parents and relatives, this would have been an average day’s worth of deaths in Baghdad lately.
I think nine of those risk factors apply to our president!
32 innocent victims lost their lives yesterday. It was a very sad day for America. We have too much hate and violence in our country. We need to change that!
http://suzieqq.wordpress.com/
(Pls pardon OT… EPU’d)
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Hope to see you on our unofficial FirePup Fan map. Pls don’t forget to pick the right pin for yourself, and to add a fun “shoutout” and maybe a pic.
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… and now we return you to your regularly-scheduled thread… :)
Great post Christy!
It’s good to know that you’re in a state with a decent child welfare system. I have worked on SACWIS applications in a number of states in testing roles. I have had to create test scenarios for the entire system from the beginning Intake, through investigation, clinical support and on to the federal AFCARS and NCANDS reports. NOTHING that I could make-up ever was as bad as what the real-life situations were.
Unfortunately, child welfare workers are in one of the most thankless jobs in the world:
“Why did you investigate ME? I haven’t done anything wrong, I just disciplined my kid!”
“Why did you leave that kid in that home to get killed? Didn’t you investigate and see how bad it was? How could you not remove the child?”
“How did THOSE people ever become foster parents? Isn’t anyone competent over there?”
And all points in between.
From AP:
Rayne @ 24
i am a big believer in the power of family education.
Great post, Christy. Very sage advice.
Regarding Bush and the memorial service – don’t Presidents normally get directly involved in tragedies like this?
I’m obviously not a fan of Bush, but I also don’t believe WE should politicize this. If he didn’t attend, wouldn’t many criticise him for “ignoring” it?
Perhaps the President feels it is his duty to pay respects at the memorial service for this massacre. Unless VT decides that they don’t want to have to deal with the security issue, he should probably attend because he is the President of the United States.
(Please, I’d like to suggest that we don’t devolve this into a debate over Bush’s blind eye toward Iraq war casualties. I just think we should withhold criticism from Bush for attending the memorial service for the deadliest shooting rampage in our nation’s history.)
OT: This morning, MSNBC gave a number to call for questions wrt the shooting. The number was
888-MSNBC-USA
Isn’t that 8 numbers??
Where did that “mean jean” post go? Did I see it here at Firedoglake?
cccmask @ 34
Not to worry. The phone company will only pick up the first 7.
I can’t help but think when their jobs call for both parents to work 60 hours a week, the kids are going to be neglected. Our social structure is messed up in this country.
And not having health insurance leads to untreated mental problems, along with the stigma of seeking treatment if available. As if our “PUSH, PUSH, PUSH and never take a vacation” corporate worker ideal isn’t enough to drive anyone nuts
Slideguy @ 28
This was noted yesterday. Last night on NBC’s coverage, Matt Lauer was on with Brian Williams discussing the shootings. Lauer said something to the effect that “If we were talking about Iraq” – and I thought, finally a realization by our media that similar numbers of random deaths occur every day in Iraq. He went on to say “if 33 American troops died, we would be shocked.”
landofthefree at 35 — Yes, I remember the Clintons and the Gores being involved in memorials for the Columbine tragedy, for example. This is one of those “healer in chief” moments. And, honestly, this White House is going to be moving on this quickly because there is still that lingering anger about how Katrina was not handled with the requisite sensitivity — I heard a GOP commenter talk about this earlier today, actually. This is a very tough time for all the folks in the Blacksburg area, and this is one of those times when a President, whomever it might be, is expected to step up.
Rayne @ 26
Unfortunately, too often, the early intervention programs are not funded and are considered too expensive. A “luxury” if you will. Penny-wise and pound foolish. I saw this in working on SACWIS (Statewide Automated Child Welfare Information Systems). The feds about a dozen or so years ago mandated the SACWIS programs, paying half to 3/4 of the development costs. This was to give social workers the tools to know if a victim/family/perpetrator was already in the system, services provided, etc. Basically a one stop means to ID for tracking/finances/whatever. It appeared that often the case-management components and services were the least used.
Slideguy @ 28
Apply the Same feelings same prayers same compassion.
JF @ 38
Not random. Planned deaths. And how many Iraqi deaths on a typical day?
Some “expert” on MSNBC this morning was saying that most of these shooters in schools and college campuses spanning almost a decade reportedly “trained” with myriad violent video games.
Thanks for posting this, Christy.
One thing I’ve always wondered: Is the “homicidal triad” (bedwetting, firebugging, cruelty to animals) a legitimate marker for people like this? Or is it a myth?
While it makes sense that Prez Bush and Laura go to V tech for the memorial. Have they ever attended any memorials/funerals of dead American soldiers returning from Iraq?
WRT the list above, Christy, can anyone guess how many of those traits our Preznut has? Working with the information I have learned in the past couple of years, I’ll say 9 out of the 14 you listed. Pretty scary….
America is a profoundly sick nation at this time. All the more reason why we should have been spending time, money and energy on making this a better place from within instead of being the global police.
700 military bases in 140 countries.
Imagine a quarter of those resources invested right here…in schools, hospitals, clinics, urban renewals, parks, basketball courts, alcohol and drug treatment centers.
Empires crumble from within while they spend all their energy trying to micromanage the world.
-GSD
conniptionfit@12: What that means is that the Secret Service will be providing security for the president, and will herd the press into whatever pen they deem necessary to maintain security/prevent embarassing questions.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 41
I agree and I also know from marrying into a Hokie family that the “Blacksburg” area extends way beyond the physical limits.
bilzim @ 50
Gee, yesterday they were “Security Goons”, we loing our touch here?
Texas Betsy @ 44
This was noted yesterday. Last night on NBC’s coverage, Matt Lauer was on with Brian Williams discussing the shootings. Lauer said something to the effect that “If we were talking about Iraq” – and I thought, finally a realization by our media that similar numbers of random deaths occur every day in Iraq. He went on to say “if 33 American troops died, we would be shocked.”
Not random. Planned deaths. And how many Iraqi deaths on a typical day?
You’re right about the random/planned, but I thought Lauer was goung to go into how this was a “regular” day in Iraq in regard to number or Iraqi deaths, but it’s all about us.
Bush will likely have folks ejected who don’t share his viewpoint. That would include anyone who feels badly about the killings and the guns used in the tragedy.
Texas Betsy @ 38
I never knew that….interesting Betsy, thanks. It was making me a little crazy this morning getting ready for work because first, I never get my news that way (go firedoglake!!) and second, I kept wondering why I was the only one who noticed it!
I found this while fact checking something about the Columbine tragedy -
Bath School Tragedy – wiki
I had never heard of this horrible story (maybe Rayne or other Michiganders are aware)
this man bombed 3 school bldgs and killed 45 – mostly 2nd and 6th grade students
and look right here -
New law in VA to prevent NYC from doing sting operations on illegal gun sales there.
When you read the statement which Gonzoles sent to the Senate Judiciary Committee the other day, you will find a reference about the need for more funding to support programs which address the problem of violent crime in this country. You will also note he stresses more guns, more cops, more law enforcement, but nary a word about prevention.
If we spent as much money on programs for people who are in psychologically delicate situations, we wouldn’t need all this funding for weapons with which to kill them after they have killed other people. Because, in essence, that’s all we end up doing: adding killing to killing. And, learning nothing.
From AP:
What a waste of valuable lives…a tragedy. Ryan Clark was the African-American guy raven was talking about in an earlier thread.
eCAHNomics @ 57
Also, saw on TV last night that it is not illegal for a minor to posess a firearm.
There is a diary at daily kos of an ex-alum at VT who doesn’t think Bush should go. It’s called “From A Virginia Tech Alumnus to President Bush” and can be found here. http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..72925/5946
I didn’t realize Dana was responding to a question since the report didn’t say that.
In same vein, hats off to the Today show (I think) NBC for having on Columbine parents to say that we haven’t learned our lessons from Columbine. Hear hear.
I have to admit that I understand Bush’s desire to parachute into the Virginia Tech campus at a time like this. It is, after all, what a good President would do. The problem is that Bush is not a good President. He’s not even an average President. He’s a really bad President. There’s an outside chance that he’ll give a brief, eloquent speech that will bring some comfort to the families and friends of the victims of this tragedy, but I seriously doubt it. He’s probably just going to make it worse. The sad thing is that none of his handlers seem to realize this. Neither they nor the President himself have a true understanding of his limitations. They never have. He’ll be lucky if he makes it out of Blacksburg without causing some sort of major PR disaster.
Raven52: What part of “prevent embarassing questions” eludes you?
I think we have these kind of discussions because we want to believe that we are individually vastly different than the shooter. The more reasons we can think up of why they are different, the more scientific it all sounds, only helps us keep that distance.
But does anyone remember the book released a few weeks ago, the author showed up on The Daily Show. The unlimited ability of the human mind to rationalize their behavior is the problem. It exists in everyone, just manifests differently.
Fortunately only a very few (I’m amazed at how few) individuals choose to express their realization of powerlessness in one final showdown. But huge events like this have only one thing in common: access to massive weapons, knowledge of how to use them and a generally peaceful and open culture. I know which of these can be changed, not the weapons themselves, but the bullets. We could also tie continued access to bullets to education and evaluation, paid for by the bullet owners.
FDL has been awash with great phrases this AM… Weasel-speech… astroglide asses… but my fave thus far today is “President Potemkin.” [vide http://tinyurl.com/yqx863 ] Recalls to me Stephen Colbert’s famous address:
My son is 12 years old. He and his friends spend hours on the weekend with water guns, dart guns, or foam swim-noodle swords. Anyone think that might be setting a dangerous precedent? Better or worse than killing each other in PS2 games?
I went through a school shooting in Dec. I diaried this below.. And I am a former teacher too One of my kids threw our class guinea pig down the stairs…
He got expelled in 2 grade.
We never learn…And the 11 grader below was at some point dertmined to be at risk and it was suggested he get help The parents response
MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
my daughters school shooting
I am so upset today
CHS,too many assumptions that Cho Seung-Hoi may have been abused etc….and this tragedy could have been prevented. Psychotic Disorders for males, such as bipolar, schizophrenia, borderline personality disorder, etc..usually surface as the testosterone levels increase usually teen years and “we” write it off as crazy teenager behavior. Both environmental and genetic factors are thought to play a role in predisposition. It is enormously difficult to “red flag” someone who will have a break from reality. And considering the size of the World population, over 6 billion, and the infancy of psychiatric brain disorders, the reality is we will see much more of this. Wait until the veterans from our current war come home, trained to kill and have killed, and the percentage of them who have PTSD.
Acknowledging the Psychiatric Cost of War
Matthew J. Friedman, M.D., Ph.D.
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/351/1/75
National Institute of Mental Health
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/
When is the CIC (Chimp-in-Chief) expected in Blacksburg?
JF @ 60
The rationale for that is that there are a lot of young hunters in Virginia. (Just stating the rationale–I do NOT agree with it.)
JF @ 70
2p
Lee @ 65
My heart goes out to you, your family and your community.
TexasBetsy at 67 — I think water guns are all about soaking the other person — but that’s because Mr. ReddHedd and I still pick one up and soak the other person once in a while. I think your son and his pals are fine. :) (So long as there isn’t a kid who is trying to hold another kid down while trying to drown him with a super soaker, as one particularly nasty kid tried to do that I know of…that is a whole other level of behavior.)
http://newsblogs.chicagotribun…..ing_t.html
Where have I heard those words before…..
The news about this shooting is really terrible ! It is an heart breaking experience to loose someone you love even when it happens for natural causes, I really cannot even try to grasp how dreadful must be to have it happen in this senseless and horrifying way… I send all my compassion to the people involved in this terrible event, it really burns that this is the only thing one can do…
When thing like this happen in a country like yours they highlight some of the aspect of your society that are the most difficult to understand for someone like me that is living in Europe (specifically in Italy). As I have already written here commenting (albeit some time ago) there is no way to deny the USA and their culture are representative today of the western society much more than Europe (for the good and for the bad I am afraid … but let’s no go there..) so it is really difficult to understand the position of the majority of the citizens of the USA on a issue like the use of firearms (as well as about dead penalty… but again this is not the place to prod that issue).
It is really flabbergasting to hear from the left and from the right (…well from that side not that much *…) cries of anguish every time anyone raises the problem of gun control… a disclaimer here… I am strongly against the free sale of firearms, so I am probably biased in my position, but I am really curious to know what do people of the USA make of the hard fact that despite the claims that the availability of firearms would help reduce crime occurrences, the USA is a country with a level of violence and criminality that has no equal in the rest of the western world. I have read all the version of the argument that sound like “but-the-criminals-will-have-them-anyway” and I am sorry to say they do not make the cut: I mean take a look at the history of the USA in the latest 40 – 50 years and please explain to me again how having free access to guns has made the criminal level going down in any significant way.
I am sorry if I offended anyone here but from where I stand it is very difficult to understand why the only article of the USA constitution (a truly remarkable and inspiring product of it time and of the passion of so many great human beings) seems to be universally accepted only for its more antiquate point, the right to bear arms, which clearly was developed in a very different time in the history of man and in the development of our civilization…
I am sorry I have used up so much space but this tragedy has really left me upset.
Peace and keep up the good work Firepups, your community is a sight to behold.
* By the way I have read the post of Istandpundit on the event (via Istanputz) and I would like to point out that the guy is a disgusting pig…
(I ask forgivness in advance to the “grammar police” for any mistake that slipped through … unfortunately English in not my first language…)
OT: Excuse me for interupting. Is there a way to send a tech question directly to FDL mods/IT’s, or should it just be posted on a thread?
Thank you
Doesn’t mean the child needs to OWN the firearms.
Gunga at 77 — What’s the question? Just post it here and I’ll see if I can answer it for you.
Re: NYC vs VA
Gun laws in Virginia are so lax that people routinely run guns from Virginia to NYC. New York, understandably, is not happy about this. Virginia doesn’t seem to care. People have been trying for years to shame Virginia into cutting down the gun-running, with little (if any) success.
According to AP, Bush will give three televised interviews before leaving VT campus. Will questions be limited to the tragedy? Will interviewers be able to ask other questions?
Frank Probst @ 63
Well, Shrub did do well enough at the National Memorial Service after 9/11, so we know he has it in him if he puts his mind to it (or more correctly, his speechwriters put their minds to it).
This is an appropriate function for the President. I was in Oklahoma City after the bombing in 1995 and the tornadoes in 1999 when President Clinton came in, and even the hyper-conservative Daily Oklahoman was supportive of his visits. So if Shrub does the job right, this might provide some small measure of comfort for Blacksburg and the VT community.
Then, he’ll go back to DC and keep screwing things up like he always does.
Andy
Alton IL
From AP:
cbl at 7:51 am
Great catch!
Great post and informative,but there is one point ( I have not read every post here) he had the receipts for the guns in his nap sack.
It’s one thing to harbor violent thoughts and contemplate expressing them, but when it takes next to nothing to buy a hand gun, then you really have trouble.
Yet, I know how much those hunters need those 9mm to take down those animals…
cccmask at 7:54 am
Thanks for the link.
Frank Probst @ 80
I thought NYC’s efforts were a good way to get at the micro issue of gun control in places where it matters without tangling with the second amendment freaks, but VA said FU.
Speaking of NYC, more human remains found in the WTC fill used to repave lower West St. Let’s hear it for Rudy!
Mae @ 81
Now this is exploiting the event for political purposes. Three televised interviews? What could he possibly know about this tragedy that will require that many interviews on the campus?
“When I was growing up, the moms and dads in our neighborhood all looked out for everyone’s kids. If I did something wrong up the street, my mom heard about it before I made it home…”
If you talk about middle class, it seems today, you can’t say anything critical about the offspring, because parents expect their kids to be admired, in a kind of narcissistic way. In working class, different picture, so much dysfunctionality it is scary.
Would like to repeat what I said last night: the looming shadow in the American psyche is the one of violence. Proof: it would not be so gleefully displayed wherever you look.
Let’s examine subject “Dubya”, shall he?
– Animal abuse, especially torture and physical violence of any kind.
Check.
— Arson/fire starting.
Unknown, but subject has shown reckless behavior with dangerous objects potentially causing harm to others.
— A history of sexual abuse, either as a victim or a perpetrator.
Unknown.
— Anti-social/loner tendencies.
Subject claims to be “likeable”, but many incidents of bullying on record.
— Outbursts of anger.
Check.
— A history of bedwetting beyond young childhood range.
Unknown.
— Language delays, causing difficulty in comprehension or expression.
Check.
— An obsession with firearms or other explosive devices or weaponry.
Check.
— Abuse toward younger siblings or other family members.
Check.
— Violence in the home.
Unknown, but likely.
— Obsession with violent video games, or other violent media or literature.
Check.
— Drug and/or alcohol abuse, especially where it results in violent behavior while intoxicated.
Check.
— Truancy/delinquency issues.
Check.
— A home life that includes maltreatment, neglect and other emotional abuse issues, as well as exposure to physical abuse, to themselves or to others in the home.
Check.
We can’t rule even one out.
Here’s an interesting piece of news. General Pace says Iranian weapons were intercepted on their way to the Taliban in Afghanistan.
This as the debate rages on here about how it is not the problem of who manufactures weapons, it is the problem of why people use them.
Stange days indeed.
Using General Pace’s mindset, the problem for the shooting lies squarely in the hands of the state that manufactures the weapons.
-GSD
Biodun @
89
Good point. So I return to my question. If questions are limited to the tragedy, isn’t it exploiting the tragedy. And if other questions can be asked, isn’t that inappropriate?
mulligatawny @ 87
My son has freedom in and around our synagogue. And he knows that i have many spies and will know if he has misbehaved in any way within seconds.
Does Wal-Mart sell the weapon that the shooter purchased?
Please stop this nonsense — this is a totally, totally staged black op operations… here’s the proof:
http://frogsinhotwater.blogspot.com/
The bottom line is just look at the headlines to spot staged news… when it says, “at least”… odds are it’s staged.
Open up your newspapers… read the scrolling news headlines… listen to the newsreaders… when those two words “at least” are used, my BS detector goes up.
Also, there’s a rapidly growing amount of (unconfirmed) holes in this story… instead of simply agreeing with what the news tells us, I beg you to hold judgement and instead question everything.
It’s obvious to me this is a:
1) Distraction from the Gonzales hearings (which of course have been delayed because of this…
2) A way to grab guns from us before another staged 9/11 event occurs (and brings us Martial Law)…
3) A distraction to keep next week’s Trucker’s Rally off your radar screen.
Yes, I do believe people were killed yesterday, but I highly doubt it was the suspect the news is telling us about.
Ask questions… and pass this to your friends and family… the website address here is:
http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/04/17/red-flags/
Anyone interested in pursuing this topic further should read Why They Kill: The Discoveries of a Maverick Criminalogist, by Richard Rhodes. The author, who has had a lifelong interest in the underside of human nature that he attributes to being abused to the point of near death in childhood, describes the career of Lonnie Athens, who survived a violent childhood himself to become a paradigm-breaking social scientist. Using in-depth interviews with hardened convicts, conducted in some cases at considerable personal risk, Athens identified a four-step process of “violentization” through which the most incorrigible criminals go through to become what they are. Athens asserts that once a person has passed through the final step s/he is for all practical purposes beyond salvage, but before that intervention is possible. Yet, as Christy points out, it is that earlier intervention that continually gets short shrift in our state and federal budgeting processes. Here’s a brief quote from near the end of the book:
Athens spent decades in the untenured academic wilderness, not only because of his unfashionable qualitative methods, but also because of the belligerent personality he developed as a survival mechanism during his chaotic childhood. He finally landed at Seton Hall, where as far as I know he is still active.
Biodun @ 83
If this is true it blows my military training idea.
Wow. I did not know about the Bath School disaster. That is shocking, would have been an enormous event in its day, too.
And the perpetrator was an obviously disturbed but well-to-do individual, protesting taxes used for education…sad. Very sad.
Frank
Progressive Dems had a cooperative effort last year with another group (whose name escapes me) to campaign against illegal guns; it’s the same crappy, weak laws and unethical gun dealers that the effort focused on, since these same guns are shipped around the country and underpin a substantive number of violent crimes in the U.S.
I don’t know how the NRA is going to spin this situation successfully; we are going to have to push back at the NRA and say, “Look, this is what your extremist neo-liberal attitude towards gun ownership has done, offered foreign nationals the ability to access firepower”. Certainly, this was one lone disturbed student and his status as a foreign national may be incidental, but it’s now an example to any other organized subversive group now invisible to us in this country that they can get semi-automatic weapons and do considerable damage with the support of groups like NRA. And Dana Perino will put a nice bow on this package with Dubya’s equally disturbed blessing, as if putting out a Welcome mat.
Freedom at 96 — You know, everything in life is not a conspiracy, no matter how much you might wish it to be so. And please don’t tell me what to write — my husband would tell you that is recklessly stupid. *g*
ABC News update
Texas Betsy @ 67
They make great military recruits. No child left behind.
Great post Christy.
Nowadays, this sick society assumes all adults are child predators instead of responsible people who can help socialize the young. Our local library has “rules” that adults can’t go on the children’s side of the library unless accompanied by a child. (No joke!)
I can only imagine what sort of scene would happen now if someone called a helicopter parent about their child misbehaving.
Why is it you can’t graduate high school without taking driver’s ed even if you’re blind, but there’s no family/marriage/child development class requirement?
Texas Betsy @ 94
Glad to hear that! Have too many different examples in neighborhood.
cccmask @ 95
The laws in VA make it really easy for anyone to have weapons, even concealed ones. The logic behind those laws escapes me, except for the tough guy posturing by VA politicians as they pass those laws.
Fresh thread for everyone.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 98
mulligatawny @ 90
“When I was growing up, the moms and dads in our neighborhood all looked out for everyone’s kids. If I did something wrong up the street, my mom heard about it before I made it home…”
When I was in high school, I went to play golf with a friend. He was driving the cart and doing doughnuts all over the fairways. When I got home, my mom said “Is there anything you want to tell me?” She knew the pro at the course who had called to tell her what we had done. No golf for a while.
Cassius Chaerea @
91
He’s only got one leg (cruelty to animals) of the ‘homicidal triad’ confirmed. So far.
The deal is allegedly that someone can manifest one or even two of the behaviors that make up the triad and (usually) turn out OK. But if all three — bedwetting into adolescence, torturing/killing animals, and an obsession with setting fires — are present, watch out.
Cassius Chaerea @ 91
Cut it out. Only Bill Frist and Charles Krauthammer are allowed to
make diagnoses without actually seeing the patient.
Frank Probst @ 63:
Bush is not only “a very bad President”, he is an even worse Precedent!
Christy @ 79:
Hi Christy,
Beginning sometime yesterday afternoon, loading FDL on Opera browser would hang the page (i.e. partial page load & browser click functions disabled), then ultimately hang the entire browser.
Prior to that, Opera did multiple pagewidth reformats at each refresh, before settling in & being stable. (this only happened for me at FDL). I was going to send a note regarding this, as I thought it was burning your bandwidth, but now there’s this new hang problem.
FYI, this morning I saw the hang occur on some cookies and/or images.
Not blaming or complaining…just wanted to point out the bandwidth thing in your interest, when suddenly all Opera functionality tanked.
Thanks so much, and feel free to e-mail if I can provide any more details or help at my end.
(this sent on IE with no hangs and no page formatting problem)
Fresh Threadiness upstairs…
Let me just take a moment to say that changing your e-mail address to evade moderation for rampant blogwhoring is grounds for banning. Just a friendly heads up.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 111
What is blogwhoring?
Gunga at 112 — I’ll pass that along to the tech folks. That one is beyond my level of tech helpfulness. *g* FWIW, I’ve had some IE problems. We’ve been doing some server upgrades of late and it may be related to that.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 114
I may be naive…but what is blogwhoring??
Bush’s handlers are hoping that he can pull off another bull-horn moment. It’s all he’s got left. If they can revive the memory, he might lift himself to 35 percent in the polls. Agree that it is appropriate for a President to offer condolences on an occasion like this, and to offer them in person. But we all know what’s going to happen. Wall to wall propaganda. Speech writers working over time. Michael Gerson and Karen Hughes drafted back into service for the day.
It will not ease the pain of the parents and siblings of the lost ones. What a waste. And yet, we’ve become so inured to the daily toll, that only those close to the dead will be feeling this three days from now.
Excellent post, Christy. Thank you. I have friends and colleagues at VT and, thankfully, they are all okay. At least in the sense that they have no gunshot wounds-I don’t know what something like this does to their psyches.
“I hope that this is a start to a much more detailed conversation that we need to have in this country. At the very least, perhaps it will help out someone in some community with an at risk child who needs someone to reach out…today.”
I hold out very little hope that the conversation will progress much beyond “guns bad, no, guns good.” And then the shouting from the NRA and Crossfire-style (definitely no pun intended) politics will drown out whatever intelligent national conversation does occur.
Texas Betsy @ 67
Millions of American kids grew up doing exactly what your son is doing, and they didn’t turn into lone gunmen. It’s innocent, clean fun provided the kids already have solid ethics and know what constitutes “going over the edge”; maybe having a discussion about ground rules for such play wouldn’t hurt if you are concerned. Having that kind of chat would also reinforce that you are very much watching them, that they have boundaries to which they must adhere — exactly the kinds of things that preteens and teens still need.
I’d much rather my kids have a waterfight than a video game fight any day; the first requires personal interaction and immediate feedback between players, where the second offers an opportunity to depersonalize the other player and blow off feedback. Reality over surreality whenever possible.
Texas Betsy @ 115
What does it sound like? It’s more like ‘BlogPIMPing’.
I looked over the list. Seeing kids every day of my professional life, it seems like such a “reduction” Our response to kids with these kind of problems early on has to be to embrace them, not brand them as tomorrow’s serial killer. Get them help. Be part of that solution. A teacher, A pediatrician, A neighbor can be the thing that lights the life of a child like this when no one else is going to do it. If we join the crowd that ignores the problem, or worse, that runs from it, the cycle of violence and abuse will continue to spiral. I think about one of my patients who had almost all of those risk factors you listed. He is a happy productive adult now, not because I got him out of his abusive home, because I couldn’t, but because I got him the help to understand his life in some other way than that of a victom.
landofthefree @
35
Well I don’t. I think it’s absolutly typical that Bush would horn in on someone elses’ tragedy. He continually uses other people as props for his twisted agenda. These folks grief isn’t real to him, doesn’t matter to him, it’s just another photo op to him. Bet nobody asked the students and families if they wanted the memorial for their loved ones hijacked, so that the preznit could have a lovely picture for his library collection. Don’t forget that they put photos of him staring soulfully out of AF1 and comforting a victim after Hurricane Katrina into his campaign literature. This is disgusting, and that’s all that it is.
Gunga Djinn @ 112
I had the same problems on Sunday using AOL’s browser and Firefox; loaded very slowly and sometimes only partially. I was on dial-up, though. I didn’t know if it had more to do with using fricking AOL for dial-up service while I was away from home.
Excellent post on this tough subject.
I’m reminded of when I was first teaching so many yrs. ago. We had set up a garden outside the classroom & one student brought me a large water bug in his hand to show me. We were both marveling at how many ridges the bug had as it moved along his palm when he suddenly said, Teacher, look, as he crushed & smeared the bug into paste. Why did you do that, it was alive, you know, I said, revulsed by the sudden maneuver. Answer: Because he was hurting my hand, & I wanted to.
Empathy, or lack thereof is something to watch for in your students, folks. If I told you what happened w/this kid later in life, it would be revealing in more ways than one.
You know, it’s hard to tell who will crack. On the surface, my 25 year-old nephew is a candidate. He was a late bed-wetter, was violent on the bus, tossed out of school several times, and obsessively shy. He also owns a gun. But he was raised in a loving family, never abused — in fact part of his problem is that he was overprotected, and as a result doesn’t even have the self-confidence to keep a bank account. I’m not kidding. But had he been from an abusive family, he would be a prime suspect.
Other case: an fetal alcohol abuse syndrome baby, adopted into a loving family. Not violent, but from an early age a liar and a thief. He murdered my mother-in-law and dumped her on a dirt road 200 miles from her home.
You just can’t tell.
Steven at 122 — It is a reduction, but it was the best I could do as a first step post — otherwise, this would have been a full-blown treatise. The first step to getting a child help is recognizing that the child needs it. Thus, the identification factors. Unfortunately, we live in a society that does not put the effort needed into mental health programs and early intervention that might make a huge difference for these kids — which is what I was trying to get at with this. I thought that was fairly clear in the writing, actually — we desperately need to have a long, detailed national conversation about this. Because we are losing far too many kids that might have a much better chance if we were doing things differently.
I don’t think violent, first person shooter type video games are responsible for tragedies, but I almost wouldn’t mind if they were restricted or banned because maybe then gaming companies would show some originality for a change and make some non-lame games.
It’s just another example, though, of how our society tries to be reactive when being more proactive instead would save us a world of grief.
Rayne @
120
I concur! Nerf-dart-guns are big as well.
Kimba1970 @8:01 It’s always great to hear from you. No way you could offend anyone! And you express yourself beautifully in English.
Freedom @ 96
Ya know, instead of comin’ here and trying to convince US, why don’t you try reading what the rest of us are writing, maybe you will learn something.
Christie,
Thanks be to God for your knowledge, wisdom and caring and for co-creating FDL so that we can be educated by the lead writers and the commenters bringing their knowledge, wisdom and caring. I am daily blessed by FDL and the calls for engagement with hundreds of issues that really matter for human life and well-being. As a long-time advocate for several causes, I know that I can do only what I can do and try not to feel guilty for not doing more. But I also chafe at the sick American culture and destructive values that promotes such endless consumerism and selfishness, while legitimating violence in so many forms.
So thanks for keeping on with the endless alerts and articulate pleas that say this and this and this and these really matters and we need to care and act.
Blessings to all
Christy Hardin Smith @ 116
Thank you! :)
As a juvenile and adult probation officer for several years and a teacher in the public school system for awhile, I have dealt with human violence most of my working life. We are a country of gun boat diplomacy. We glorify war and the Dirty Harry mentality. We love guns and we elect presidents who like to shoot little animals and birds who run and fly through the woods. And veeps who shoot their friends in the face, without consequence. I remain convinced the problem begins in the home. With irresponsible parents, to be specific. I know their are some who don’t want to hear this, but… well… that’s just too bad. As a parent I realized one of my primary responsibilies was to send my child out in the world with a respect for others, and most importantly the sanctity of life. And that hard work was the way to success. Many of today’s parents have lost their way. And parents, it’s your responsibility not to allow horribly violent music and movies and books into your childs home. And it’s your duty to be involved with every facet of your childrens lives. And to teach them respect and to follow the ‘golden rule’.
I know I’m coming in late, but thank you, Christy. And also a rare cheer for “Today” for offering what the media so rarely do. This kind of information–information that empowers us to do something about the world we live in–is what news coverage so sorely lacks.
Frankly, I’m more than a little depressed at what I’ve read, and what I haven’t read so far.
The shooter was a “loner”. One red flag is “anti-social”. I’m sure we’ll read more descriptions of a person who “kept to themselves”, and “didn’t have many friends”, and “wasn’t involved in a lot of activities on campus” and so on.
My armchair pyschologist points out that it’s a lot easier to do horrible things to a community when you don’t percieve yourself to be a part of that community. Even easier if you feel alienated from said community.
Maybe I’m projecting here (entirely possible) but I’m willing to bet this kid went to his classes alone, ate his meals alone, and outside of study groups and group projects, managed not to speak to his classmates. Assuming a full load of classes, that’s four to six groups of 20-30 people he was interacting with on a daily basis, and somehow no one noticed or cared that he didn’t have friends. He was a foreigner, away from home & family.
If he was disturbed, identifying other red flags and locating help for him would be a lot easier if there was anyone who he felt connected to.
The “angry loner” is such a common, re-occuring theme in violent shootings like these, yet somehow no one ever suggests the lack of community and the lonliness & isolation these people feel could be a factor. Forget metal detectors and armed guards, a lot of these incidents could be prevented simply by making sure that no one goes a full day without some meaningful personal contact. If the key to prevention is detection, the apathy towards individual isolation is a serious problem.
RodeoBob at 136 — Did you miss the multiple references to the need for early intervention services in the post above — and the discussion of how helpful counseling and other intervention services can be in the comments or what? Maybe I’m just tired this morning, but I tried to craft this post very carefully to emphasize the need for early intervention and your comment says that you missed that point entirely and I’m trying to figure out how that is.
selfishly, amidst all this tragedy, I take stock: our first-born reaches adulthood today.
Christy –
You’re not tired. You’re also not responsible for other people’s reading difficulties.
Rayne @ 124
IIRC, AOL’s browser is what used to be Netscape Nav, but I’m not sure what remains of the original; no experience with Firefox, so I can’t comment. I’m on DSL, FWIW.
I *do* know that Opera has a pretty slick auto pagewidth formatting capability that was far ahead of the MS curve. On other sites, users were complaining about stretching threads beyond screenwidth under IE, while Opera was doing perfect fits first time, everytime.
(I don’t program this stuff, but I always suspected Opera had added a few trick lines of formatting code to improve on MS buggers.)
((o.k., quitting my hijack & EPU’ing…sorry!))
thanks again!
punaise @ 138
Congratulations to you and yours; wish it was a happier day on which your family was celebrating. But such is the nature of adulthood: tears and cheers, and often at the same time.
We are a loner society. We encourage lonliness and we breed anger. It’s actually surprising how few big tragedies like this we do experience, given those factors. How likely is it – in a neighborhood of cul-de-sacs and McMansions, or lonely individual tiny houses where nobody interacts or may even know their neighbors – that a neighbor would be willing to, or even see a child’s red flags, to intervene? We value property, things, posessions, and keeping everyone else away from our things. We value individuality, not collectivity. If what you’re suggesting, that dads in the neighborhood are required to intervene, then unfortunately these tragedies are bound to continue. We just don’t seem to do that here.
Thanks Christy that was compelling…
I suppose in time we will hear more about this perpetrator’s background and perhaps get a clearer picture of what happened…
Even though I’m not too keen on owning guns I believe that in these types of instances it isn’t about “guns” it’s about the person holding it..
Here’s a warning sign: people buying semi-automatics.
wise words, Rayne, merci…
Biodun @ 89
Anybody else remember the Busheviks slamming President Clinton for “hogging the spotlight” and promising that Bush would never exploit tragic events the way they claimed Bill Clinton did?
I htink something that bears mentioning is that about 1/2 to 2/3 of the warning signs CHS noted in her post are directly correlated with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. Children with FAS have a fixation on violence (hrming siblings, animals violence in the household), the inability to distinguish between real and pretend violence (fixation on violent media), a ridiculously high propensity for drug abuse/addiction, obsession with weapons, and the list goes on. The other notable aspect of FAS is that all of these propensities increase dramatically as age does. Just something to think about.
GUNS DON”T KILL PEOPLE!
(it’s the bullets: make them register their bullets.)
Even though I’m not too keen on owning guns I believe that in these types of instances it isn’t about “guns” it’s about the person holding it..
Here’s a warning sign: people buying semi-automatics.
GUNS DON”T KILL PEOPLE!
As usual I’m a little late “delurking” but would like to weigh in on this discussion – esp about the complex issue of guns/gun regulation. Anyone still here?
Christy: reading your list, it seemed to me to be a lot like the list for psychopaths and/or serial killers (of the “one at a time, serially” variety, not the “one after another in a burst” variety.) From some experience plus a fair amount of reading, I’m not sure that’s always right.
I think there’s a distinct profile that’s closer to major depression than to sociopathy, and centers on isolation and a combination of decreasing belief that any sort of normal resolution to the person’s problems is in any way possible with an increasing obsession with violence and killing people.
I’m completely with you on the absence of preventive resources. Having tried to find them when someone I knew needed them, I can say pretty definitively that they just aren’t there.
Slideguy @ 28
same point I made to my son, a VT engineering student. imagine life in Iraq or Israel. this was a rare tragedy; what we do every day in Iraq is PREVENTABLE.
What a great post. Thank you.
hilzoy at 150 — Good to see you in these parts. :)
Unfortunately, there is a lot of overlap, at least for violent juvenile crime, of the long-term sociopathic tendencies and the violent outburst variety. But you are absolutely correct that a big common denominator in outbursts is mental illness that has gone untreated and thereby gotten much, much worse over time, coupled with a decided lack of any support network for people who might be trying to get the person the help they desperately need. Funding for mental health services in this country is pathetically underfunded, and dwindling by the year. It makes it very difficult indeed to do any preventative work — which is hard, because that is one of the best ways to prevent this sort of violence in the first place. Frustrating does not begin to describe it.
I know that this constitutes exploiting the tragedy for political purposes, but when I read Christy’s list of warning signs, I’m going “Bush … check. Bush … check. Bush … check.”
You omitted psuchiatricdrugs. You know, legally prescribed …and not “abused” because the M>D> is only following the manufacturer’s instructions…quite “legal”. But then, who writes, or surrepticiously inserts, the laws that make it “legal”?
chuteh: in the case I knew about, what really got the person back from the edge of homicide was aggressive treatment with antidepressants.
Christy: I’m often in these parts; I just don’t comment a lot. (The ObWi comment threads are a lot to keep up with. ;) )
Redd. just wanted to thank you for the note this morning. the hills of Va are family territory for many generations. this is a hard one to take.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 41
agreed. this is his JOB. let’s hope he can do this right.
kathleen @ 47
good question. after all, he’s directly responsible for their deaths, unlike the kids at VT.
when I lost a family member to a senseless “carjacking” by a 17 yr old youth(in Florida where gun laws are about the worst) who was already a convicted felon, violating his house arrest – he was a textbook case of the problems listed above yet he was let out of jail, left to the responsibility of a very dysfunctional family – obviously he had no trouble getting a gun…
Christy – I sent you a CD a while back – don’t know if you had a chance to listen -
I was compelled to write a song “Both Sides Of The Gun” trying to come to terms with my own conflicted feelings ie my distaste for guns vs our dwindling civil liberties – still very torn about this.
just wonder if you’ve had a discussion of this issue on FDL
punaise @ 138
my firstborn is sitting on the 20 yard line at Hokie stadium, just barely an adult himself. as I told him this morning, live life like you mean it. happy birthday to yours, pun master.
Mr. Larry @ 142
he had to have at least one friend. he had a girlfriend, right? I just wish at least one of his friends had taken the time to listen. There may have been no warning, but I’m willing to bet there was. We all need to know what those warning signs are. Thanks Christy.
Christy,
I’m so late with this it’s ridiculous. I hope you find it anyway. I work with special needs kids, and the population you are writing about is always a subset of this. I work directly with these kids everyday.
The special needs teachers and their paraprofessional instructional assistants are one of the keys for highlighting the qualities you listed above. We MUST be better trained in understanding and reporting these behaviors.
I have worked with a few firestarters, bedwetters, and those obsessed with dark and violent things. My partner and I work hard to identify and report. It takes persistence to get these kids help. Each year, one or two (and on one horrible year, five) come through our small town middle school.
When our school was lit on fire last summer, I knew immediately who did it.
The key is with the special needs department.
I’ve written before about women like me who go back into the work force to work with kids. These underpaid paraprofessional jobs are where the rubber meets the road. We are with kids all day, every day.
Let’s find a way to get this training to the people who can do what it takes to get these kids help before it’s too late.
Thank you for writing about this.
Do you think this incident is a reason to pass stricter gun control legislation? More than 50,000 (of the 70,000 who voted) in a current ABC poll say NO!
YOU CAN STILL VOTE at the ABC News page: Look in the sidebar on this ABC News page for the link to the poll.
This is ABC’s current result from the poll with over 70,000 votes:
JF @
25
Blowing up frogs with firecrackers would be a red flag in my book!
I wonder…
Would you consider talking with teachers to help identify these kids before it’s too late?
I have found that what we have to do is then document their behaviors until the school is forced to ask the parents/guardians to get professional mental health screening.
There’s often resistance, but it is so worth doing.
dreamcatcher @ 165
Let’s see…
Check.
As far as I know, only by proxy. No check.
No verification, no check.
Check. (His entire presidency is based on “George W. Bush, Lone Wolf.”)
Check.
No verification, no check.
Apparently, Bush’s abusive relationship with the English language developed in the last ten years or so. No check.
No verification, no check. But I have my suspicions.
Check. (Wasn’t it Marvin who reported him “hunting” his siblings with a BB gun?)
No verification, no check.
Check. Bush makes violent media and literature.
Check.
Check. I think TANG counts.
Check. Look at his mother. Just LOOK at her.
The Preznit Toad-Exploder thing has always been worrisome.
Like James Dobson’s childhood history of physical abuse, and his adult history of promoting the whipping of children as young as 14 months — and with real whips. Not to mention writing proudly about belt-beating his own Dachshund.
A teacher had already recommended counseling for the VT shooter. Better to intervene earlier — making sure all children are wanted and well-cared for. You know, caring for the post-born for a change.
This post strikes me as well intentioned but ultimately really irresponsible.
Especially the list, which is full of generalizations which seem cribbed from an episode of Criminal Minds. Except it’s not so funny how this crap fuels paranoia and creates more problems for vulnerable groups.
I understand this is not the intent, but the moment a glib warning list is put out there, people take it as a guide. The one thing the problem doesn’t need is more simplistic generalized answers.
And I really question any list which puts bedwetting and an obsession with violent video games next to the common traits of sociopathic serial killers. It has the added nastiness of adding to the image problems of abused children, who should be treated as victims, not poential perps.
And I’m chilled by this: “In all honesty, there are some offenders who simply cannot be rehabilitated, for whom incarceration is the best means of ensuring safety for the community and for the defendant.” Yes, but that’s what should happen AFTER they do something which proves they are a threat.
This post is about prevention, which makes this seem like a creepy advocacy of locking up troubled young people based on their percieved threat potential.
Here’s the thing: While the urge to predict and prevent is undestandable, it can only be done in a very limited fashion before it abuses the rights of innocents.
School shootings may be shocking, but they are extremely rare, unpredictable and involve types who actively go unnotices. Thus any draconian measure or use of “red flags” is going to be wrong most of the time, and likely to miss the one true threat.
Ever since Columbine, similar red flag lists have demonized kids who don’t fit it in, or fail to fit the idea of normal, or are acting like normal moody rebellious youth. Kids have been expelled or worse for having colored hair, being sullen or expressing free speech.
Meanwhile, the violence which is common to school enviroments – bullying – is ignored or viewed as unpreventable or even tolerated a necessary part of growing up.
I’d argue this obsession with shootings is in part a way to dodge other issues which are more banal (mental health care) or difficult (gun control).
I find this amazing coming from people who are are so smart in pointing out how the war on terror endangers civil rights without increasing safety. Can it be that when it comes to teenagers, watchlists and paranoid generalizations are okay?
Christy:
Look very hard at the comment at 3. We(as a society) are responsible for a good deal of this behavior. In a younger child, you see all of the things you mentioned as part of a Conduct Disorder. As the person turns 18, this same behavior turns into an anti-social personality disorder. I’m not about to go into what causes it here, but most psychologists who are a little more interested in people than laundry lists like you have up above, know exactly what causes it. It is extremely well documented. We can do nothing about it as a society because we are not willing to make the social sacrafices it requires (and I’d be perfectly okay with leaving guns in law abiding citizens hands….even though I’m an anti-gunner…it is not even one little bit of the piece here). The damage is very easy to do, not against any law that I have ever heard of, and nearly impossible to undo. Sorry, anything more takes some reading, and I have no faith in most of the society being interested enough to do that reading, and less faith in people’s ability to do anything about it.
Softdog at 170 is right on the money. I have no faith in people doing anything but making “red flag” lists and then using them to persecute kids who have done nothing, but might be a little strange. My kid was bullied without mercy, and the one time he fought back, he was “red flagged.” In the end, I think he won. He dropped out…..and never went back….Now there’s an enlightened school system for you. Right back in the 19th century.
TiredFed @
161
thank you, and take care in this troubling time.
Boston at 166 You’re full of it. Both the parents and the kids see through you. No one is allowed any anger….and if they express it, especially with the bullying that goes on in a school…off they go to a therapist.
Go ahead, Christy, close down the comments like you said you would last night. The truth hurts, and I suppose there isn’t much room for it here either.
cynic at 171 — Did you even read the entire post? The point of the list of characteristics was to alert people that kids who have a lot of these “red flag” issues may need psych intervention or other help. This is not some persecution list — far from it — and it is gleaned from years of studies done in trying to prevent violent juvenile crime. Try reading the entire post instead of just taking things out of context — and in reading through all the comments, most of which talked about ways that people can step up and help out at risk kids, all I got was a sense that people wanted to help where they could. Which, last time I checked, was helping to prevent problems — especially in families where the parents are not stepping up to help their own kids. That may not have been the case for your family, but having worked with any number of at risk kids in abuse and neglect cases, I can tell you that it is a problem for a LOT of kids. I think you are letting your own personal issues leak into the discussion — and taking it out on everyone else inappropriately.
The law in this country is main streaming. Red flags are just one more tool school administrators use to persecute special needs kids and get around that law. You’re a lawyer and a prosecutor at that. I do not wish on you that your child has “issues,” but if she does, one day, you will see how quickly she will be classified a trouble maker and shoved aside. I am taking nothing out on everyone else. I’m saying that you and a lot of the other people, not all of them, are taking a lock em up and throw away the key attitude. “Help” of the kind you speak of is just shoving the kid out of the way. I forget who said it, but let he who builds a prison build it as though he and his family will have to live there. My heart goes out to the people at that school…..but no “red flagging” would have prevented it. You don’t choose to know teen agers very well. By the way, my kid is a very productive adult in spite of the school system.
Another European take, from the UK this time, on this tragedy to back up Kimba1970.
We had one school massacre, at Dunblane, and simply banned handguns.PERIOD.Even our Olympic pistol shooters had to practise abroad for a time.
I absolutely cannot imagine us bringing them back now. Yes of course there are still guns around, but except for shotguns they are self-evidently illegal, so just being found with one means trouble. More or less; it works.
In fact, our government is at this moment even planning to ban replicas to make packing a gun even more conspicuous.
No-one who is not a law enforcement officer, and not too many of these, could legally have a semi-automatic. As best I can understand, in Virginia, the shooter was doing nothing atall illegal till he shot his first victim. A British lawyer simply can’t get his mind round this.
Please, pleeease let the US think properly about this. I am tired of hearing about pointless, tragic, US school and college massacres. Is anyone’s right to bear arms worth the deaths yesterday? Too many people seem to think so.
cynic – you don’t know me at all, nor what I did for the juvenile kids that I represented, nor the ones I prosecuted. So I’ll thank you to keep your personal prejudices to yourself. Whatever happened with your child, it wasn’t my fault — and trying to take it out on me does not change that fact. Nor does it change the substantial scientific research — or the fact that very often, without intervention, a child who has problems may grow up to be an adult who takes those problems out on others — absent help from a committed family, therapist, doctor, or others. After years of working with kids who desperately needed a helping hand from someone who gave a shit about them, I’ll thank you not to tell me how committed I was to my job when you never saw me doing it, day in and day out for years.
A few points in response to the post.
For the millions of individuals who fit one or more of the profiles only a miniscule percentage will ever perpetrate an horrific act. I suspect it is damaging when teachers, counselors and parents start looking at troubled youths and stereotyping them as potential mass murderers.
There is little scientific evidence that mental health interventions and therapy, especially on unmotivated or uncooperative individuals, accomplishes a positive good.
Many of the perpetrators of the recent school shootings were receiving mental health services. Many were taking psychiatric drugs. Being left alone will sometimes result in the best outcome for a troubled youth.
Violent entertainment and violent acts are not the least bit new, they have been around forever, and how they are connected, if at all, is not clear.
My opinion is that as a society we are overinvolved in controlling our children’s lives, both in and out of school. Of course we need to respond to behaviors as they manifest, but we should be wary of fearful imagining, for it is pointless and unfair.
conniptionfit @ 12
More likely this enables the Bushnazis to arrest anybody who looks like they despise the Commander in thief and therefore they have a right to read minds and then arrest.
softdog @ 169
Amen softdog. And btw, can we thank Ronald Reagan and ACLU. When Ronald Reagan was governor of California he systematically began closing down mental hospitals, later as president he would cut aid for federally-funded community mental health programs. Prisons now house people with serious mental health disorders. It would be nice to wrap with a red ribbon Cho’s intent and actions, blame the parents, community, schools, etc for not recognizing his potential for commiting an enormous tragedy and move on to the next story. Unfortunately. Cho’s actions cannot be rationalized away.
Ronald Reagan and the Commitment of the Mentally Ill:
Capital, Interest Groups, and the Eclipse of Social Policy
http://www.sociology.org/conte…..homas.html
Senate Appropriations: Labor, Health and Human Services, Education and Related Agencies Subcommittee:
Mental Disorders Are Chronic Brain Disorders
The NIMH mission is to reduce the burden of mental and behavioral disorders, such as depression, schizophrenia, autism, and bipolar disorder, through research on mind, brain, and behavior. Research is demonstrating that these illnesses are brain disorders, accessible by the tools of modern neuroscience. These disorders frequently begin in childhood and are chronic,[1] affecting people of all races and ethnicities, in both rural and urban settings. To prevent a lifetime of disability for millions of Americans, NIMH research is identifying the biological basis of mental disorders, and pinpointing targets for diagnosis, prevention, and treatment.
Public Health Burden of Mental Illness
In the most recent national household survey, as many as 44 million Americans met criteria for some mental disorder, with roughly 12 million reporting symptoms so severe as to cause significant disability in the past year….
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/…..ations.cfm
On one hand 99% of the people showing these warning signs won’t do anything horrible. On the other, the kind of stuff this guy was writing in English class was blood curdling. So they referred him for counseling. Not enough. I don’t think its a job for early law enforcement. what’s needed is more community awareness; more ordinary faculty people saying “hey this guy might be dangerous, what can we do? The Texas tower guy turned out to have a brain tumor in just the right place to make him a killer. Maybe this guy did too. Regardless, its obvious he was nuts. enough concerned people might have stopped him. But not law enforcement.
Came to this late and have only skimmed the comments, but -
the guy was an Eng major at age 23, which I’m guessing means an undergraduate, not a grad student. Older than most undergrads.
Any chance he was a vet or had spent any time in the military?
cynic @
173
Cynic,
Has something terrible happened to you and your child? I can’t imagine why you would tell me that I am full of it.
Some children need help. Real help with a psychiatrist. Others may just be angry but in control of their actions.
Kids do get misunderstood, pushed aside, lost or labeled. I honestly hate that. I work with those children too and have come to love some of them.
I am talking about children who are fixated on doing things you may not understand. Fixated on hurting, burning, even killing.
Christy Hardin Smith @
127
Christy, I work with “at-risk” kids (part of why I’ve been so busy that I can’t comment much on FDL any more). Let me just say “THANK YOU!” loudly and clearly for saying what I feel should be very obvious.
Most of the kids that I try to get help for have little chance of receiving anything in the way of medical/psychiatric/counseling care and the family support is simply not there. I do everything in my power and spend nearly every penny I earn to try to give these children a safe, caring place, even if it’s only in my classroom for a few hours a day.
I don’t do it because I believe that I can work miracles; I long ago accepted that I have little impact compared to family influence, dangerous neighborhoods, gangs, drug and alcohol abuse, etc. I’ve only been able to remain in this line of work for so long because I focus on the kids in front of me and let go when they leave me at the end of the school year. I do check up on their progress and some do come back to talk to me and thank me. That’s the true payoff in my line of work.
But I have no illusions. Many end up in jail, some die. I don’t judge them or their families because I don’t have to live their lives and deal with the issues they do every day at home. I do know how horribly difficult it is to break the cycle of poverty and violence and anger and abusiveness and hopelessness.
It is my hope, however naieve, that if one of my little ones finds him or herself in a situation someday, like what happened yesterday, they might stop and think “Hey, my teacher once told me that I am valued, loved, amazing, and worth everything in the world. Maybe I don’t need to do this to act out my hatred and fear.”
Thanks for trying to start this conversation. I recently responded, in a professional capacity, to a survey about how to fix No Child Left Behind. My response? Quit punishing those of us who choose to work with these kids and the kids we choose to care about and start working to end poverty, hunger, disease, homelessness, and violence. It’s hard to teach a hungry, sick, sleepy, frightened, abused child how to read. They just want to survive and be loved. Namaste.
Having read the post and most of the comments I gotta thank Firedoglake and Christy in particular for providing such an enlightening discussion. People bring perspectives to this place that I would never hear anywhere else – whether I agree with them or not. I always have a better and more nuanced understanding of things after spending some time here.
Priscilla, Queen of the Beach @ 185
I’ll take this opportunity to thank you for what you do. I sometimes think the No Child Left Behind act should be renamed the No Teacher Left Sane act. That’s not to say there were no problems pre-NCLB enactment but I’ve begun to wonder if the cure hasn’t been nearly as bad as the disease.
Christy, do you have access to statistics of how many women (and children) die each day in the U.S. from domestic abuse? I am really bothered by the easy acceptance of the fact that the officials on campus dismissed the first shooting incident as “just a domestic.” Does such a breezy acceptance imply that the woman attacked deserved it, or did something wrong to set him off? I don’t think the subsequent shooting deaths at VT are any more horrific than the initial “domestic” shooting of the “girlfriend.” We will learn more as this story unfolds, but it troubles me greatly how easily we accept domestic abuse. It is truly “domestic terrorism,” and it is all around us, and until the authorities (and we all) see it in its full horror, and try to intervene and deal with violent (mostly) males, our society will continue to suffer these tragedies. Our societal blindness to domestic abuse and our relative acceptance of it is nothing but misogyny. On a related note, look at how Don Imus’s insults were offensive primarily as a racial slur, not a misogynistic namecalling. It is all part of the continuum.
Who is empowered to intervene when a person who showing clear signs of instability and will not seek or accept help?
It is my understanding that it is extremely difficult to impossible to detain a person who is clearly disturbed but resistant to treatment. In this case, the signs that Cho was seriously disturbed were recognised the year before, the police were notified, but they shrugged and said there was nothing they could do. Are there any states that make it easier to intervene?
Too bad we can’t reframe the media debate over what should be done from from more gun control vs. less gun contorl to the less sound-bitey question of how to deliver mental health services to seriously ill people who are treatment resistant especially when there are not enough services to go around as it is.
Boston at 184. Nothing particularly terrible has happened to me. That was Christy’s suggestion, and she doesn’t know me at all. Nor would she, I probably didn’t go to a good enough school to associate with her.(of course, something had to have happened to me, didn’t it, or I wouldn’t be disagreeing with all you (and I don’t mean that personally… enlightened people), Obviously, I must be a troll. What did happen is that all through my childs school career, which is, thank God, over, he was persecuted by other kids, well meaning school psychologists who didn’t know him or care to, and a few psychiatrists who gave him terrible but acceptable drugs. My problem, and bad feelings, is that I went along with them, thinking they actually knew something….and thinking that we were actually getting him help….and not giving enough credibility to his side of the story. Until one day the kid stopped going to school period. And no, we had very good help….but it was outside of school….and it was quite expensive. Now I only pray that my kid doesn’t hate me for the rest of his life, for cooperating with people who seemed to mean him a great deal of harm (with some noteable exceptions). Nothing particularly terrible happened to me. I am just weary of all the junk science I hear from unqualified people. People with “training” in other fields, who know enough to be dangerous. People who treat the diagnosis instead of the individual. There are some good comments on this board, (most of them made by people with MD following their name…but many of the others are narrow and uninformed, especially that little list which was not made up by anyone with any common sense. The problem is, that society wants to punish anything and anyone it cannot deal with in a standardized way. Not to deal with its problems, because, of course society has no problems. Any kid who does not take the sheer crap that some schools dish out is red-flagged. Bottom line, no one yet knows the entire story, nor will they for several weeks. Type William Friend into a search engine. Then look for the story where one of his class mates said “yes, he was quiet, and because he was quiet, he was bullied….at one point he had his head shoved into a toilet.” This is a fruitless discussion anyway, no one is interested in changing anything. Fortunately, some of the children who “get help” survive it with their personalities in one piece.
Everyone needs a combination of justice, emotional validation, and even revenge, when they’ve been victimized – in degrees which correspond with their particular innate temperament and life experiences.
It’s a real drag when revenge is number one.
I had some free time before bed and read the comments. Now I’ll pick on some of you:
#46 Phoenix Woman
The “homicidal triad” is a potential sign of sociopathy, a born psychopath, an emotional flatliner.. whatever you want to call it. At Columbine, both Harris and his bullies had some ‘psychopathic’ characteristics. These people play rough, obviously.
#91 Cassius Chaerea
The intelligent sociopath can do quite well in competitive society – cunning and ruthless, yet charming and pragmatic. The down side is that the expertise they have to trade with society involves much more in the way of power politics than any socially useful problem solving. Bush is no Pablo Escobar, but I’d bet he’s cut from much more similar cloth to him than any of the commenters here.
#97 Minnesotachuck
Richard Rhodes sounds like someone who’s temperament craved revenge last (from #191).
#125 Marie Roget
Yup.
#136 RodeoBob
The “angry loner” thing may be symptomatic. They may be hurting for good reason, and they may believe (often with good reason) that nobody cares. In Cho Seung-Hui’s case, a few people did notice but obviously not enough.
#171 cynic
IMO, the red flag list shouldn’t be more than a starting point for further observation, and a kid should never be alerted to having been ‘flagged’ as:
An ‘innocent’ might be genuinely hurt if they found out.
A ‘guilty’ might be alerted that they were being watched.
#178 TomK
So your solution is to punish the parents?
Thanks for letting me play with this serious topic. It’ll be interesting to see if Cho Seung-Hui was developing schizophrenia, got knocked crazy by some traumatic abuse, or was a rare introverted psychopath.
Cynic at 190,
You have described a parent’s nightmare. The bullying of children is ugly and children need help.
We recently had another workshop on dealing with bullies, who are both boys and girls. Teachers have to address the bullies, who are often skilled at redirecting the attention and sliding away. Because I work at a middle school, where bullying behavior peaks (according to studies), it is important that we recognize the signs and handle situations well.
If we come upon a bullying situation, we are advised to address the child who is bullying while letting the child on the other end of it move away from the situation. This is because the idea of bringing both kids in at once favors the child who has the bullying skills.
We let the kid who is bullying know that we have seen this behavior, that it is not acceptable in our school, and that we will be watching for this in the future. If the behavior deserves a trip to the principal, we will make that happen. However, we are encouraged to look at smaller situations and let the child know that we have seen what happened.
We follow up with the other child later, privately. If the child needs support, the guidance counselor gets involved for support. Again, this is done privately.
I have worked on excellent teams of teachers where we have shared the situations and been able to stop some of this behavior and re-establish a safe space. We are sensitive to children who begin to miss school and try to keep the school as a safe place for them.
I am sorry that you and your son were not helped.
Cynic,
The most bullied children? Special needs. We have to be on guard that our kids are protected and safe.
I know that more work can be done to understand when children need more help than a school is equipped to give. This is a related but separate issue from bullying.
I have had students who set fires; to books taken from the library, to a field near a section of town with many homes, and to the roof of our school. There are other fires that this small group of kids was involved with. One of them set his house on fire. Gutted.
I have a student who has very difficult language problems. Great difficulty processing language, yet intelligent. This student has difficulty reading social cues. This student is also fixated on death, serial killing and suicide. I stayed up an entire night documenting our conversations so that we could move ahead to get him help. The parents are from another culture and do not believe in psychological counseling.
They rejected the psychologist from their culture, who spoke their language; the guidance counselor who spent her time finding this psychologist, found someone else. The other psychologist has said that the child is, at least, depressed and needs help.
The child is back at school and may or may not be getting the help he needs. As I said before, I see this child every day in a small group. I am working with him on his difficulties processing the language. Another teacher works with him on social skills. But I know this child needs more.
Where is the more???? In a few months, he will move on to another grade.
While this child is terribly troubled, he is not the only child about whom we have serious concerns. We have had to have a home visit set up to find out why a child was missing over 20% of the school year. His only guardian has addiction problems and the home is not really a home. We feed him breakfast and lunch. He barely does a thing at school. We have let him be with us most of the school day to try and help him do a little schoolwork. We are kind and he has said it’s his best year of his life. Think about that.
There’s more.
I’ve written before – and never received a response – that special education teachers and their assistants are on the cutting edge of identifying children in need. Many of us are teachers who have chosen this underpaid, understaffed line of work. Now that my son is in college, I am pursuing a math degree. But my seven years in special education is life changing.