
Going on weeks now, I've been inundated with questions about whether Fitzgerald knew about the GWB43.com server. If so, what can he teach Waxman, Conyers, and Leahy about its use? If not, does that mean Fitzgerald has received enough new information that the CIA Leak case will re-enter an active phase? Over two weeks ago, I wrote Fitzgerald's spokesperson to see if he could offer any enlightenment–and I got a classic non-answer in return, "there's no public record basis for me to comment so I have to decline." So what follows is my best understanding of the recent evidence that has come to light–as well as the evidence already available. Much of this is speculative–but it ought to lay out at least the overall chronology involved.
Note: I just posted the followup to this post, Rove's Hadley Email, over at TNH.
Looking back, it seems like from day one, at least one journalist covering this story suspected something was up. On October 7–the day the WH was first told to turn over materials–the reporter asked whether employees were obliged to turn over emails they had already deleted. Watch how McClellan immediately emphasizes that employees are only obliged to turn over materials "in the posession" of the White House.
Q No, I understand that. I'm just saying how would this work? Let's say I remember — I'm an official, I remember sending some email about this, but I've long since deleted it. How –
[snip]
Q I just want to be clear, though, the White House is obligated to provide emails that may have been deleted by the individual but are still archived by the White House –
MR. McCLELLAN: Look back — it said what is in the possession of, I believe, in the White House, the employees and staff.
That sure sounds like the dodge of a spokesperson who is well aware of the way the RNC server is used, not to mention aware that a lot of sensitive emails reside on it. And not only did that first document request limit itself to items in the possession of the White House, but it was a request, not a subpoena. It wasn't until 2004 when those documents were formally subpoenaed. Keep in mind, by the time that formal subpoena went out in January 2004, BushCo had had the initial 11-hour gap between the time when Ashcroft informed Alberto Gonzales and the time Gonzales informed the White House to retain all relevant records, and then three more months before actually being legally subpoenaed. Abundant time to do a great deal of deleting.
It's clear that Fitzgerald was supicious about the lack of emails from key participants in Plame's outing early on in the investigation. He asked Libby about it specifically in his March 24 testimony.
Q. You're not big on e-mail I take it?
A. No. Not in this job. I was in my prior job.
But it wasn't until seven months after Fitzgerald started investigating–and at precisely the time he started getting journalists' testimony–that the RNC claims it stopped its automatic destruction policy on White House email.
Mr. Kelner said that as a result of unspecified legal inquiries, a "hold" was placed on this e-mail destruction policy for the accounts of White House officials in August 2004.
Frankly, I'm not convinced that this hold is a response to the Plame investigation. It just as likely relates to the Abramoff investigation, which started in March 2004 with the cooperation of people–like Abramoff and Michael Scanlon–who knew about the RNC server. The Senate Indian Affairs Committee, led by Republican John McCain, issued its first subpoenas in June 2004. And we know SIAC and FBI got Susan Ralston's emails that were sent from the RNC servers–they had been printed off (from Abramoff's computer, apparently) in May 2004. If it were the Abramoff investigation–and not Fitzgerald's–it would explain why Rove would continue blithely deleting his own emails as if nothing had happened.
So it may not have been until October 2004 that Fitzgerald first discovered why there were missing emails. Hubris states that Rove first turned over his email to Hadley when he testified on October 14, 2004.
…on this day [Rove] turned over what he claimed was a recently discovered copy of the July 11, 2003, e-mail he had sent to Deputy National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley. (377)
And it describes Luskin (who can't be trusted as far as I can spit, which since I'm a lady, isn't very far) as discovering the email in October 2004.
Rove's office had given Luskin a folder full of e-mails that included the one Rove had sent to Hadley. But Luskin hadn't noticed the important Hadley e-mail until October 2004, just before Rove was about to go back to the grand jury for the third time. (402)
We honestly don't know whether the email had been turned over in original discovery (though I doubt it–otherwise, Fitzgerald probably wouldn't have agreed to limit Cooper's testimony to his conversation with Libby in August 2004). If not, October 2004 may have been Fitzgerald's first indication (besides the absence of any emails from Libby) that key emails hadn't been turned over. (Incidentally, Marc Grossman testified at the Libby trial that he discovered–and told the FBI in Fall 2003–that State Department emails are destroyed after 3 months, which is why he was unable to pin down when he had emailed Walter Kansteiner and Armitage about Libby's inquiries into Wilson. So Fitzgerald probably already had questions about suspect document retention policies.)
And frankly, I suspect it wasn't until October 2005 that Fitzgerald learned the full extent of the email gaps. We know, for example, that Fitzgerald didn't start questioning why Cooper didn't appear in the phone logs of the White House until after Cooper testified in July 2005, after which Fitzgerald interviewed Susan Ralston. By the same logic, he may not have investigated why he didn't get the email until that time. Reports claimed that Luskin offered his first explanation to Fitzgerald for the discovery–then delay–of the email in the days just before the October 2005 indictments, when Luskin first raised his conversations with Viveca Novak. This timing might explain why the Office of Administration would "discover" in October 2005 that it wasn't archiving all emails properly.
According to CREW's sources, in October 2005, the Office of Administration ("OA") discovered a problem with this email retention process. The OA undertook a detailed analysis of the issue, which revealed that between March 2003 and October 2005, there were hundreds of days in which emails were missing for one or more of the EOP components subject to PRA. The OA estimated that roughly over five million email messages were missing.
In other words, the discovery may well have resulted from Fitzgerald's inquiries about why he didn't receive the Rove-Hadley email.
But I also think that Fitzgerald discovered GWB43.com in October 2005. In addition to hearing Luskin's story about Viveca Novak, after all, we also know that Peter Zeidenberg interviewed Adam Levine just before the indictment, ostensibly because Levine first emailed, then talked to Rove about something just before Rove left for vacation. Not only does this suggest Fitzgerald had two emails from July 11, 2003 from Rove. But Levine has been one of the more forthcoming sources on the email policies and Plame leaking of the Bush Administration. (See him, for example, serving as a named source for this Tom Hamburger article.) In other words, Fitzgerald's team was probably talking about emails with someone who has (recently at least) gone on the record about the parallel email policy.
Plus, that timing would explain why the RNC–and not just the OA–would change its email policy in 2005.
Mr. Kelner also explained that starting in 2005, the RNC began to treat Mr. Rove's e-mails in a special fashion. At some point in 2005, the RNC commenced an authomatic archive policy for Mr. Rove, but not for any other White House officials. According to Mr. Kelner, this archive policy removed Mr. Rove's ability to personally delete his e-mails from the RNC server.
If Fitzgerald in fact pursued Rove's RNC emails in October 2005, then they likely told him precisely what they're now telling Waxman:
Although White House officials had used RNC e-mail accounts since 2001, the RNC has apparently destroyed all e-mail records from White House officials from 2001, 2002, and 2003.
And if Fitzgerald really did know about the RNC emails in October 2005, then presumably the FBI has already tried some forensic investigation of the damn thing–after all, this was criminal investigation that the Bush Administration–at least publicly–claimed to support fully.
In other words, the RNC may have done a better job of destroying Rove's tracks than we've assumed so far (though I assume no one has yet seized the servers to try some industrial-strength forensics on it.)
In any case, let's assume that Fitzgerald started hunting down the missing emails in October. He then learns, around about January 2006, that some emails were recovered:
In an abundance of caution, we advise you that we have learned that not all email of the Office of Vice President and Office of President for certain time periods in 2003 was preserved through the normal archiving process on the White House computer system.
Let me unpack this passage for a second. First, in January 2006, Fitzgerald doesn't appear to have the emails yet–he just knows they weren't archived properly. And the reason resembles the CREW explanation–that someone was simply eliminating entire days of emails from the archive–more than it does the GWB43.com explanation. This passage references emails from both OVP and EOP, so it would include Rove and Libby emails (plus their surrogates, like Cathie Martin and Jenny Mayfield and Susan Ralston). Also, at this point, it is unclear whether Fitzgerald believed he'd ever get the emails.
Those missing emails next show up in the February 28, 2006 hearing, when Bill Jeffress (who, having represented Nixon, knows well how bad it looks when your client's emails disappear) describes what happened to them:
I may say we are also told that there are an additional approximately 250 pages of documents that are emails from the office of the vice president. Your Honor, may recall that in earlier filings it was represented or alluded to that certain e-mails had not been preserved in the White House. That turns out not to be true. There were some e-mails that weren't archived in the normal process but the office of the vice president or the office of administration I guess it is has been able to recover those e-mails. Gave those to special counsel I think only on February 6 and those again are going to be produced to us.
So these emails–at least the ones turned over to Fitzgerald on February 6, 2006, at least so far as we can trust Jeffress–are the ones CREW describes, entire days worth of emails that got deleted. And that, as far as we know, is what Fitzgerald went to trial with, 250 pages of OVP emails recovered from organized email deletions, but not–at least as far as descriptions suggest–the emails archived on RNC servers.
Nevertheless, Fitzgerald is still obviously suspicious about emails. At the trial Fitzgerald asked Judy about whether or not she communicated with Libby via email. Never, she responded. It's not a question he asked other people (for example, he didn't ask Woodward how he "sent over" the questions he wanted to ask Cheney). So I assume that, even as recently as January of this year, either Judy was lying about the emails and Fitzgerald knew about it–or he suspected there had been emails, but couldn't prove it.
So what does that mean for my original questions? Did Fitzgerald know about the emails? I think he did, having learned about the emails from Adam Levine, though I think the 250 missing email pages came from the deleted WH emails. So does the discussion of the missing emails impact Fitzgerald's case in any way? I don't know. It seems that, at the very least, this confusion offers Waxman (or Conyers) an opportunity to renew his request to talk to Fitzgerald, at least about the limited scope of the email evidence turned over. And possibly, if Fitzgerald didn't get to do the full forensic analysis of the GWB43 servers he might have liked to do in December 2005, this would offer a great opportunity to do so. After all, Fred Fielding can't very well claim executive privilege prevents Fitzgerald from investigating the RNC servers, since BushCo has already turned over the crown jewels, the morning Vice Presidential Daily Briefings, so as to appear to be cooperating with Fitzgerald's investigation. So by having Fitzgerald seize the RNC servers, rather than Waxman do it, you do it under the aegis of an ongoing criminal investigation.
Update (Putting this here after I finished the above because I don't want Luskin to sully my nice post.)
Gold Bars Luskin!! How I've missed your parsing ways! Here's what Gold Bar has to say. Note the absence of any and all chronology in what Luskin says, presenting the illusion that Rove was cooperative from the start:
The prosecutor probing the Valerie Plame spy case saw and copied all of Rove's e-mails from his various accounts after searching Rove's laptop, his home computer, and the handheld computer devices he used for both the White House and Republican National Committee, Luskin said.
The prosecutor, Patrick Fitzgerald, subpoenaed the e-mails from the White House, the RNC and Bush's re-election campaign, he added.
[snip]
Rove voluntarily allowed investigators in the Plame case to review his laptop and copy the entire hard drive, from which investigators could have recovered even deleted e-mails, Luskin said.
As the investigation was winding down, Luskin said, prosecutors came to his office and reviewed all the documents — including e-mails — he had collected to be sure both sides a complete set.
Let me point out two things. First, even the RNC says it has no emails from 2001-2003. So what Luskin isn't telling you is that Fitzgerald would have had to reconstruct the emails–they weren't sitting there on a server. He may well also be telling you that he and Fitzgerald never got the most damning emails, which were destroyed before Luskin ever got hired. I'll have more in an upcoming post. In any case, those emails Luskin did share with Fitzgerald probably explain why Zeidenberg was chatting to Adam Levine in late October 2005.
Also, if you look at the document production file from the Libby trial, you see that Libby, at least, is never asked to provide his laptop so Fitzgerald can scan the whole thing. I'm just saying–it looks like Fitzgerald may have looked more closely at Rove's hard drive than he did at Libby's.
In short, Luskin is just doing what he does best–parsing to present the illusion that his client is innocent.
Update 2
Geez. Nothing like updating a post twice before you post it. CREW has called for Fitzgerald to reopen his investigation into Rove. I don't think that particular request will go anywhere. After all, as Fitzgerald explained in his post-verdict press conference, the investigation is still open. It's just inactive until such time as Fitzgerald gets new evidence. From the looks of things, Fitzgerald knew all of the things CREW cites in its press release as new evidence–none of it is new to him. I think it more likely that Congress could call on Fitzgerald to share what he knows–and perhaps to subpoena the servers himself–than that the investigation itself will move forward solely on the basis of recent revelations. (FWIW, for a number of reasons I suspect that Fitzgerald hit a wall investigating the cover-up, including the email deletions, which was probably only indirectly Rove.)
Related posts:
- Patrick Fitzgerald Gets a Promotion
- Connecting The Eyeliner Dots On the Rove Role In DOJ Firings?
- Dick Cheney Spied on the State Department–Did He Intercept Torture Whistleblower Emails?
- Fitzgerald-Cheney Interview: A Comedy of Excuses
- The Fitzgerald-Cheney Interview: What Don’t We Know That We Don’t Know?





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Fitz!
i will 2nd that fitz and raise you another
Mind the gap…back to taxes…
Ah, so I wasn’t dreaming.
Trump you with a JANE!
Two words. Get Rove.
If ‘things’ are planned properly, you go after Rove post Bush, Then no pardon. I don’t mind waiting.
Someone seriously needs to put those servers on lockdown. Like now.
Secure the Servers and the rest will come naturally.
Did anyone just see on Wolfie’s show about 10 minutes ago (EDT) that he said Scooter LIbby and his lawyers will not be filing an appeal for a new trial? First I am wondering if this is true or not as I have not seen this anywhere and there has not been a follow up on his show. And lastly if this is correct, then wonder if the two stories (emails and this one) are related?
my too sense @ 10
I’ve been wondering myself–there’s been NO filings, which is why I was making that same conclusion (I think the deadline may have been Wednesday). But I also knwo that the jurors basically told Team Libby there was nothing they could have done to convince them–by beating up on the media, they made even Judy credible. Yet, not beating them up would only make them more credible. Voila, no way to win the case.
go-ew-go
The view from here is that Cheney (Agnew) is deletable. Rove is not.
From the 11th.
Waxman Asks Government Agencies to Preserve E-mails from RNC Accounts
Following briefings from the White House and Republican National Committee that revealed an extensive volume of e-mails regarding official government business may have been destroyed by the RNC, Chairman Waxman directs government agencies to preserve e-mails received from or sent to non-governmental e-mail accounts used by White House staffers. The Committee also requests that government agencies provide an inventory of all e-mails involving these accounts.
The briefing received by the Committee raises serious concerns about the White House compliance with the Presidential Records Act, which requires that the President “take all such steps as may be necessary to assure that the activities, deliberations, decisions, and policies that reflect the performance of his constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties are adequately documented and that such records are maintained as Presidential records.”
• Letter to Attorney General Gonzales
• Letter to Secretary Kempthorne
• Letter to Administrator Doan
• Letter to Secretary Nicholson
• Letter to Secretary Spellings
• Letter to Secretary Chertoff
• Letter to Secretary Johanns
• Letter to Secretary Gutierrez
• Letter to Secretary Leavitt
• Letter to Secretary Bodman
• Letter to Secretary Paulson
• Letter to Administrator Johnson
• Letter to Secretary Jackson
• Letter to Secretary Gates
• Letter to Secretary Chao
• Letter to Secretary Rice
• Letter to Secretary Peters
If you have Rove; checkmate.
Oooh Marcy. This is a good one.
my too sense @
10
Wow.
I hope Gold Bars Luskin that horrible character, will get caught up in all his lies with Miss Piggy Rover….they both deserve each other. Maybe they can share a cell?
I thought I heard that he would be filing an appeal, just not a motion for a new trial.
Correction – Waxman’s letters are dated the 12th of April.
17 – an appeal yes, a request for new trial, no.
Pretty ez question to ask the RNC when they were served with a subpeona in the Plame investigation. I don’t know why they would refuse to give a date – it will all come out in the wash eventually.
Rove, Rove, Rove. A thousand times: Rove. It’s always been about Rove.
Tithonia @ 19
Right. That means we proceed directly to sentencing on June 5. Maybe I should boook my plane flight early…
Rove’s lips are still shut
To open and spill the beans
Gonads wired up
Cheney’s former chief of staff skips motion for new trial, will appeal
WASHINGTON (CNN) — Attorneys for Vice President Cheney’s former chief of staff, Lewis “Scooter” Libby, have decided against filing a motion for a new trial and plan instead to challenge his convictions on appeal, according to documents filed Friday in federal court.
“Mr. Libby intends to raise in the court of appeals substantial issues of law on appeal of his conviction, including issues that may result in the granting of a new trial,” defense counsel wrote in a notice filed in the case.
They faced a Friday deadline to file a motion for a new trial in district court. Such a move would ordinarily be accompanied by arguments establishing a basis for judge Reggie Walton to rule in their favor.
“However, defense counsel’s review of the record leads us to conclude that the issues were adequately presented” at trial, the lawyers wrote. –From CNN’s Paul Courson (Posted 5:45 p.m.)
Maybe Sandy Berger took them emails
It’s all so very delicious. They can’t pardon Libby, because then he can spill the beans. I love chess.
brownandserve @ 26
Shorter Team Libby: When we interviewed the Jury, we learned that there was not a thing in hell we could have done to convince them–not even those sympathetic to Libby.
So now we’re going to put his fate in Laurence Silberman’s hands.
Easy to get lost in the minutiae. I’m glad Marcy is on top of it. Sure looks like Rove coulda got nailed with Scooter. Sure wish Rove woulda got caught. Sure looks fishy – all the missing emails. Wonder how they can communicate now. I guess they have to use the phone.
Bil @
3
Finished mine! then again – yuck! I hate the IRS.
Great work EW–I think your reasoning is good that none of this is a real revelation to Fitzgerald. Kinda disappointing.
Maybe Scooter has something to trade…maybe he’s not filing an appeal because he is dealing. That feels like wishful thinking, from this White House crowd, but still.
On the other hand, if the emails were successfully destroyed, I agree that Fitzgerald may have hit a wall. I respect that he may be aware of his limitations and is leaving the case inactive but open (no Ken Starr shenanigans)
emptywheel @ 29
Is Silberman a member of the Federalist Society?
emptywheel @ 29
And that is a true honorific for Patrick Fitzgerald and Judge Walton IMHO.
Ed*ard Teller @ 31
and the IRS will never set it up to do our taxes directly because they’re afraid of the tax preparers.
Mr. Libby intends to raise in the court of appeals substantial issues of law on appeal of his conviction
That’s going to be interesting, given the care that Walton took in being fair to the defense. As I recall, he wasn’t too happy with the defense not calling Scooter after running the defense with the strong implication that he would testify.
hmm no filings in the criminal case…very odd. Just from a tactical perspective, the appeal will prolong to process until..oh, I don’t know, January 2009, or so, and voila- “Scooter, I’ll see you at the ranch. Luv W”- pardon.
OTOH- under the fed’l criminal system does the Defendant have to wait until sentenced for the time to notice an appeal starts to run?
As for Congress issuing a subpoena for Fitz, I think that he would successfully resist testifying. He has given them all they need to do their job except backbone.
My Mom Said I Could
How About a Little End-of-Day Humor?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VP4z2UDkIA
That’s right, fellow Firepups – During the Libby Trial My Mom Said I Could support the Live-blogging, brilliant commentary and cybercommunity at Firedoglake with a monthly PayPal transaction of $25.07 for the rest of the year!
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AZ Matt @ 14
very cool. i had this one
in the first chs — “deletion
thread” of this morning,
but a good reminder, here. . .
the date was april 12 on
all of the above letters,
just fyi. . .
all of this email is going
to drown the good ship bushie’s-shop. . .
now — christy!
A M A Z I N G !!!
CREW asks fitz to reopen!?
yes!
i am just catching-up on
the events of the day. . .
edited by author
Could there possibly be a Ju-dy, Ju-dy, Ju-dy perjury trial in the offing?
nolo @ 39
dag — typo. fixed.
Elliott @ 33
I think Silberman actually birthed the Federalist society, the same way Zeus birthed Dionysus from his thigh.
out on bond @ 37
Al Kamen of the ComPost had a column contest a few weeks ago for predictions on when the Libby pardon would come down. My guess was 12/24/08 (kinda based on Daddy dearest’s precedent).
emptywheel, thank you for the extremely timely post. I was wondering the same.
Fitz made a very telling comment, which I think has not gotten sufficient attention from the TM, “we’re all going back to our day jobs.”
The USA’s are just as overworked as our troops occupying Iraq. All part of Grover Norquist’s plan to shrink government down so that he can drown it in a bathtub.
brownandserve @ 34
And for the jury, really, that didn’t get snookered by any of Ted Wells’ histrionics.
dakine01 @ 41
No.
If it were feasible to charge journalists with perjury, Novakula would be rotting his fat ass in jail right now. But it is almost impossible to do.
this is such a good post, emptywheel. It’s good to know you’re out there in the weeds going after Rove — who’s lolloping around out there.
Who was it who proposed a catchy name for this scandal…
“DogAteGate“?? It’ll never catch on but I just love it FWIW.
It wasn’t me who coined that, I’m just your local Limerician.
S.O.S. from MA @ 49
KAgro X suggested simply DogAte.
What a genuine treat it is to have emptywheel’s reporting and analysis to read and digest.
The writing just flows so nicely that even a small town hick like myself can understand it.
Thank you and keep up the good work!
So what is the bottom line here, if bottom line there be? Emails that cannot be located. Maybe ever. Surely “they” got to the servers long before this. Lockdown now is barn door after the horse is gone deal, I’m thinking. Ergo, everything is circumstantial, right? Better to bear the slings and arrows of being bad-mouthed for hiding evidence (which can’t be proved?) than to have the evidence surface. Calculated risk. Attorneys, attorneys. How do you prosecute this sucker?
DogAteGate was created by ET iirc.
emptywheel @ 47 says:
If it were feasible to charge journalists with perjury, Novakula would be rotting his fat ass in jail right now. But it is almost impossible to do.
Ah well, it was worth a thought. Of course given Novakula’s other nickname (No Facts), many folks my age learned long ago not to give any credence to his gibberish.
EW: If it were the Abramoff investigation–and not Fitzgerald’s
Might this be one of the torches that Lam got too close to when she got scorched? Didn’t she have a tangential interest in Abramoff in her Duke C. investigation?
And didn’t the lead prosecutor in the Abramoff investigation out East get promoted up and out of her investigation – along with a couple of her top assistants, thereby crippling that investigation???
emptywheel @ 46
There’s no way Scoots could ever get a better/more sympathetic (to him) jury in D.C. Ever. They knew that jig was up long ago.
DogAteItGate?!
I have been wondering if Rove might have had a superduper top secret on background “other” set of computers and laptops to do superduper dirty work, and that they got 86′d with concrete shoes in the nearest lake when the Plame thing heated up.
EW or LHP if here – Does not filing a motion for new trial waive any classes of arguments for appeal for Libby; ie waive evidentiary issues and restrict appellate issues to arguments on the law? I must be getting lame in my advanced years (almost 49.99 now) and am trying to remember the distinction between my federal cases and my local state cases. One of the two forums here mandates preservation of evidentiary issues through filing a motion for new trial before appeal, the other does not. I am assuming that doesn’t apply to Libby but wanted to double check.
FWIW Madsen thinks that Fitzgerald got the missing WH emails from a Federal site in Olney MD (I do realize that invoking Madsen will invite ridicule):
“March 22, 2007 — It is time for Congressional investigators to drive to Olney, Maryland with subpoenas in hand….
Last year, WMR was contacted by an anonymous source who claimed to have intimate knowledge of how the “EOP” (Executive Office of the President) archived older e-mail and other documents. The source said that it is EOP policy to send archival documents to an underground Federal Support Center at 5321 Riggs Road in Olney, Maryland for safekeeping. WMR passed this ‘tip’ on to those who have ‘back channel’ communications with Patrick Fitzgerald’s office with an emphasis that the anonymous source appeared to have a very good working knowledge of White House document handling and archival procedures. The anonymous source suggested that Fitzgerald and a team of FBI agents show up unannounced at the Olney facility and simply seize the e-mails in question. Shortly thereafter, most of the the ‘missing’ 2003 smoking gun e-mails involving Cheney’s office were found.”
There isn’t much point in filing a motion for a new trial since it isn’t necessary to do so in order to preserve the issue for appeal. After Judge Walton sentences him, Libby will have ten days within which to file his notice of appeal. Therefore, it’s a waste of time and money to file a motion for a new trial in the trial court unless, for example, you have some “newly discovered evidence” that you believe might have produced a different verdict if you had presented it to the jury.
One cannot lie in the weeds, so to speak, by withholding the evidence during trial. One has to have exercised reasonable diligence, yet not have discovered the evidence until after the trial ended.
There are other grounds upon which to request a new trial but newly discovered evidence is the primary one.
For the Lawyers:
Would it be prudent to subpoena the testimony of the system administrators of the RNC mail servers to find out exactly what their backup/retention/disaster recovery plans were, and when they were implemented/changed/modified?
These guys would be the only ones who would know. Rove and company surely would not know how to administer these complicated pieces of software…..
emptywheel @ 46
Good point. They deserve some serious kudos. There probably should be a brass plaque commemorating their exemplary service on the door of the jury room at Prettyman Courthouse. There should also be a plaque commemorating the historic live blogging of events mounted at the FDL desk in the media room. Thank you, Marcy, for all you’ve done.
Oh MTWheeler, this is such a great post. Wonderful to see the steel-trap mind that crafted “Anatomy of Deceit” (makes a great gift) ticking along like a gleamingly polished well-oiled logic machine. Reading your post was like reading a new Appendix to your previous Opus. I look forward to a whole slew more of “Emptywheel Vindication Days.”
Those whom you stalk had best worry about what traces they’ve leave behind because you will doubtless catch each & every one of their subtle, erstwhile covert crapulations and analyze its deeper meaning… and thus draw ever closer to CATCHing them. You Go!
S.O.S. from MA @
49
I posted it yesterday during a break at work, but it is way too obvious for me to take credit. The idea of Silberman birthing the federalist society from his thigh is the the work of a master, though.
Suzanne @ 53
Cannot decode “ET.” Help pls? /Dumb
John Casper @ 45
Thank you for pointing that out
Here was the text of a portion of the discovery correspondence from Fitzgerald to Libby’s crew:
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/…..ng-emails/
LHP or CHS or other lit/pros types will have to chime in, but to the extent that there is a now acknowledged (Perino – we screwed up) violation of the Presidential REcords Act, and Congress is investigating, I think vis a vis the emails at least (which have nagged me for a long time) Congress is now in a different position to ask Fitzgerald to come talk to them.
I said early on the other request would be a wasted effort, but now you have a USA with likely first hand knowledge, from his investigation, of a matter that Congress is investigating. Without going far afield into various and sundries, I think Fitzgerald could now be summoned to provide any info he has on the parallel systems, Rove or other’s use or misuse, info discovered relating to that in his investigation, etc.
I’m also still hoping that someone asks Gonzales, under oath, specifically as to whether there were ever any amendments or modification or withdrawals of the grant of authority to the Spec Pros. The Rove letter never surfacing is just weird. Of course, weird things with no deeper meaning happen all the time, but it’s nice to lock them down as being meaningless.
All of which led me to wonder if Silberman birthed the Federalist Society from his backside.
emptywheel @ 43
O, I C.
PAW on Silberman 2004
EW @ 11 – did the jurors meet with Team Libby after the trial?
Ed*ard Teller @ 65
I posted it yesterday during a break at work, but it is way too obvious for me to take credit. …
Oh, do! And thanx for answering my #66 /lessDumbNow
Mary4 @ 68
They could make their life and Fitz’s simpler by giving him a subpeona. I think they regard it as insulting to him, but like the purged USAs, it would cover his ass at DOJ
This is just too bizarre for me to take without confirmation — anyone hear anything about this? From the Akers WaPo blog:
Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
What a spectacular post Marcy.
What do you think the conversation with Cheney and Rove and the Boy King is about these days?
Send Libby into jail to keep him quiet, until we pardon him in ‘09. Stonewall the hell out of everything until then. If Leahy and Feingold get too close throw Abu under the bus to keep them fed for a while, and keep defying every bloody subpoena that we receive. Maybe the occasional call to Scalia to make sure he understands the play if it comes his way?
A penny for your thoughts, supersleuth…
Mason@61- If that was in response to my question, thank you. Trust me there are forums that mandate preservation of trial process errors (as opposed to strict issues of law) by giving the trial court the chance to correct the issue before forwarding to an appellate court. I was pretty sure it was a state court I was thinking of; but you will have to forgive me, happy hour started early today and I just wandered into this discussion.
Fineline @ 75
Umm, if I might interject, this scenario omits any possible pitchforks-and-torches events… Or maybe “banging pots and pans together” events… leading to pitchforks-and-torches…
lhp @ 73 – oh I mean by subpeona. But where I think, even with a subpeona, he had legitimate grounds to not answer on the earlier, more vague inquiries, I think if they nail it down to inquiries about the parallel email system, which they are investigating for possible vioaltions of the Presidential Records Act, then DOJ (which will be unhappy) and Fitzgerald (I doubt he cares much either way, except doing his job) both have a much harder time stating a reason to keep him from responding.
No exec privilege and I think the point you made earlier about sharing info for investigations has a very specific matter now and for that limited purpose he and any FBI who worked on the computer, etc. could be compelled for this issue. Do you think so?
I swear, one of these days, Emptywheel is going to put ‘Elementary, My Dear Watson’ at the end of her post and I am going to 707.
Mary4:
lhp:
from your keyboards to Waxman’s ears. And eyes.
And aides. [waving]
Marcie, I read your post the other day about what the American people are paying Rover to do his thing, and it burns me that he thinks he doesn’t have to cough this information up. He HAS no privacy or privilege. Every single work product belongs to us.
S.O.S. from MA @ 77
Umm, if I might interject, this scenario omits any possible pitchforks-and-torches events… Or maybe “banging pots and pans together” events… leading to pitchforks-and-torches…
Hmmm. Excellent observation S.O.S. One wonders about a “national emergency” that could intterrupt our regularly scheduled meltdown…
Elliott @
33
Yes. He was probably in on it from the start, in 1982.
emptywheel @
46
I don’t know if they give ‘Peabody’ style awards for blogging, but you ladies were incredible blogging that Libby trial. I could actually visualize the attorneys going at it, even Ted Wells’ ill advised crying and Fitz’s “Madness! Madness! Madness!”
BTW, is it true that Trex is related to Foghorn Leghorn?
pwrlght @ 71
Yes. And at at least one of those sessions, Team Libby was told, “nothing you could have done.” I assume it was similar at the other sessions.
Fineline @ 75
Oh, I think that, unless they can get Silberman or one of the other lizards snuck into that APpeals COurt to wave his wand and dismiss the charges, they’ll just drag out the appeal until January 2009.
emptywheel @ 85
So Team Libby met them several times? Did Team PJF?
Incredible post, ew. My head is spinning trying to sort out all the dates/facts/implications – I don’t know how you do it.
What do you think about Congress trying to get the current and former CIO’s (Chief Information Officer) in OA/EOP – a position created by Bush in summer 2001 (ostensibly tasked with making sure that the kinds of primitive e-mail archiving screw-ups in the Clinton WH did not happen), to go on the record about how the internal WH servers operated wrt the PRA?
Losing 5 million e-mails doesn’t just happen these days. I’d sure like to know how this is even possible, and I don’t think it could be done by Rove alone, but by people with access to and knowledge of the servers and automatic archiving process, which is supposed to be held to an extremely high IT standard. In fact, under Carlos Solari’s stint as CIO, the EOP went from a 2-star to a 5-star rating in terms of IT. (I’ll have to find that link.) Interesting phenomenon, I’d say.
I’m not blaming these CIO people at all yet – I’d just be very curious to hear from them. The current CIO, Theresa Payton, is hardly listed anywhere as even having that position. OA is the same office that brought to us the infamous James Knodell, too, and none of these people are listed, as far as I can tell, on the official WH site. Remember us all asking, “Who is this guy?!”
emptywheel @ 85
Is that normal to meet with jurors after the
case is completed?
S.O.S. from MA @ 77
Umm, if I might interject, this scenario omits any possible pitchforks-and-torches events… Or maybe “banging pots and pans together” events… leading to pitchforks-and-torches…
Even with erratic weather, we’ll have months of weather good enough for “banging pots and pans together.”
Whole lotta back yards and spare rooms around DC can put up a whole lotta citizens.
And after the April snow -
Whole lotta weeks before DC is too cold for sustained citizen
occupationvisits.Mary4 @ 78
It’s crystal clear he wasn’t the one who made the decision not to chat with Waxman the last time. It was the decision of Richard Hertling, one of the same fools who is dumping 2000 emails on us every other week. So the issue is to find a way to give Waxman (or Conyers) reason to renew the inquiry, and to do so in such a way that DOJ can’t intervene again.
And yes, as I said in my post, this should do the trick.
Oh, and BTW, while this has been up I did the follow-up promised in this post, which is here: Rove’s Hadley Email.
Blackberry’s come in Clusters!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/n…..217893837/
How much do you wanna bet Judy had a Blackberry?
(More from your “Friendly Neighborhood Limerician…”
Multiply EPU’d except for the last one)
———————
TurdBlossom’s His nickname for Rove
Of great dirty tricks he’s a trove.
KKK-Karl
Is going to snarl
As his buns bake in Congress’s stove.
Hail the Boy King, our Conquering Fuhrer!
His visions make our future clearer!
Eschew introspection
and make no connection
with the blood that you see in the mirror.
They strike in the Zone that is “Green.”
My guess is that Bush feels quite mean
As he sees his dream drain
While our troops feel the pain;
Looks to me like our “Surge” plan ain’t keen.
Has this been around? I forget, already.
http://www.vidlit.com/gandl/
Marcy, I enjoy reading your work at The Next Hurrah. But when you post here, and have the FDL crew responding, it’s sheer heaven.
Thank you.
ew @ 91 – but how is the legal grounds now such “that DOJ can’t intervene again?”
IMO, it is only to the extent that the committee(s) specify investigation into violaitons of the Presidential Records Act as a spinoff of these other investigations and even there, some of the same arguments that existed before have to be addressed.
BTW – I don’t buy that Fitzgerald was chomping at the bit to testify and only held back by Hertling. There are a whole boatload of issues, which I mentioned before Hertling’s letter, that would mitigate against an prudent lawyer, an in particular IMO a prosecutor who had just dealt with substantial classified info issues, from agreeing to testify without lots of negotiation.
I really think sometimes people too easily forget the every decision sets precedent and sometimes not only can those come back to bite us on the butt later, but also some are just a bad idea for the country in general – just like protecting standards of due process, even if sometimes it means a guilty guy goes free, there are standards of a lawyer’s conduct in handling confidential information and in making allegations about persons they are not charging and those standards deserve respect, IMO
I think even without Hertling’s involvement, Fitzgerald would have had a hard way to go to respect the standards of his office and his profession and the rights of the people he investigated and the confidential information provided — and still go testify under the terms and setting that Waxman indicated. Not that it wasn’t worth the inquiry, but doing what is appropriate is just that – it doesn’t have a personal “I’d like to get this guy” element.
IMO, fwiw.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 7
Rove will get a pardon from Bush. If Bush leaves office early, it happens then. If not, then Rove gets it sometime before Jan 20, 2009. It doesn’t matter if there’s a trial. The Bush family style is to pardon problems away. Just look at George H.W. Bush and his Iran-Contra related pardons.
CREW has called for Fitzgerald to reopen his investigation into Rove. I don’t think that particular request will go anywhere.
E/W – I fear you may give CREW too little credit. I agree that this particular request by CREW will not cause Fitz to go anywhere. But what CREW is doing, IMHO, is shining all the kleig lights onto Fitz and saying – he can do it……….or someone else can do it. Doesn’t get into the Dems face – allows the Dems to come “riding to the resuce” after Fitz announces he can’t pursue this matter any further.
I think this is a rather nice bank shot by CREW! (Sorry, getting ready to shoot pool with my son on our brand new pool table!)
Ew & Mary talking it through in the comments.
I’m in heaven. :)
clueless is no longer cueless…
Mary4- much earlier someone mentioned that you had a new diary up at dKos. Link?
Ed*ard Teller @ 101
haha. good one.
I propose that Internet regulatory body ICANN create new a top-level domain: “.gate”.
It would make the GOP activities so much easier to track. Think of the possibilities:
http://www.plame.gate
http://www.katrina.gate
http://www.walterreed.gate
http://www.purge.gate
http://www.email.gate
… and so on. Even “www.dogate.gate”. Newscasters could say something like “for more info, visit http://www.petgoat.gate”.
I think domain names are limited to 26 characters, so we have a LONG way to go before we run out of gates!
aReader @ 105
good idea, we’re just getting started here
this is very interesting.
NPR impicates Rove – says plan was to fire a few USA’s but needed to muddy the water so fired more.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..181412/319
Mary4 @ 98
Well, for starters, they’re scrambling to save their own jobs. Hertling intrusion into Fitzgerald’s actions would be noticed–and serve as fodder for the argument that they’re politicizing personnel issues.
There are a number of reasons I disagree, some of them based on fairly good reason I can’t go into.
But I wasn’t talking about him testifying. I was talking about him meeting with Waxman, which is all Waxman requested in his letter, and which is the issue on which Hertling intervened.
In other words, Hertling prevented even the negotiations from happening, not the testimony.
Again, you’re totally misreading my point–and Hertling’s. I wasn’t talking about testimony. I was talking about a private meeting between Waxman and Davis and Fitzgerald, at which Fitzgerald no doubt would have said much of what you just said (and said no more), and would have specifically said that which he said publicly, that if Congress wanted it, they’d have to do it the same way Congress normally does.
The point is, there is a process. I’m arguing that Fitzgerald, if Congress followed that process, would have followed the process in return. But Hertling intervened to prevent even that from happening.
Just checking in, so don’t know if this has been mentioned.
Bush asks Congress to alter 1978 eavesdropping law
Is this for real?
For a complete list the GOP members involved, sorted alphabetically, visit http://www.dcescortservice.gate (warning, large file).
Who thinks that there might be a fire this weekend in the room where they have their email server?
Kathryn in MA @
95
That’s cool.
dakine01 @ 41
Did I miss something? Are you just assuming that there is some hidden email or has some surfaced?
SnarKassandra @ 110
Just in time for that awful storm that is hitting everywhere ;}
Urban Pirate @ 106
Here is direct link to the NPR story online. Very interesting indeed, IMHO:
http://www.npr.org/templates/s…..Id=9575434
emptywheel @ 92
Great follow up. I know your focus here is on the Rove/Hadley e-mail, but in your process, thank you for highlighting that CREW’s report cites OA saying “hundreds of days” worth are deleted, which does highly suggest that delete functions were manually entered into the archiving system for entire date-to-date fields.
Who would have the ability and knowledge to do this? And of course, does anyone go into those servers for an 11-hour overnight job on September 30, 2003 – and start deleting the hell out of records that date back to March, 2003, the beginning of the war?
SnarKassandra @ 110
Good guess, Cassie! :~)
Oh how I hope that the RNC and Rover screwed this one up, surely these emails are the smoking gun and then some. Just can’t bring myself to believe that the “RNC IT staff” wasn’t carefully handpicked, more than technologically competent and loaded with Kool-aid drinkin’ true believers. Siezing an email server just isn’t the same as siezing most other types of data. Email is transient and if the RNC recipients knew what they were doing, that email did not get backed up. As someone stated in an earlier thread, there’s is a well established history of email being used as evidence. For Rover and his boys, this had to be consideration number when he hatched the plan to run a parallel line of communication.
“i” before “e” except after c….and the word seizing…doh.
out on bond @ 37
IIRC libby is out on bond until sentencing.
Re Mary: “I said early on the other request would be a wasted effort, but now you have a USA with likely first hand knowledge, from his investigation, of a matter that Congress is investigating. Without going far afield into various and sundries, I think Fitzgerald could now be summoned to provide any info he has on the parallel systems, Rove or other’s use or misuse, info discovered relating to that in his investigation, etc.”
that weaves nicely with the link in your #204 on the previous thread:
“The prosecutor, Patrick Fitzgerald, subpoenaed the e-mails from the White House, the RNC and Bush’s re-election campaign, he added.
“There’s never been any suggestion that Fitzgerald had anything less than a complete record,” Luskin said.
***
Rove voluntarily allowed investigators in the Plame case to review his laptop and copy the entire hard drive, from which investigators could have recovered even deleted e-mails, Luskin said.”
- To ponder the significance of all the content Fitzgerald had to overlook due to narrow constraints
spurious @ 109
Yes. Reported earlier in the week. The subject of this is draft legislation McConnell (DNI) circulated last week.
The ultimate effect of the desired changes would be to gut FISA.
PSA – tornado on the ground headed east towards Dallas Ft. Worth Airport
Kim @ 60.
The facility in Olney Maryland is not particularly secret, it is the tech center for the National Archives. The National Archivist and the Archives are the Custodians of all records covered by the Presidential Records Act, and this act is quite specific as to what must be preserved — and how any WH staff has to consult with the Archives on many technical aspects of preservation.
Waxman and Leahy or Conyers don’t really have to deal with nonsense from the WH (for instance about flubbing the migration of E-Mail from Notes to MSOutlook) — by law the Archives has to be a participant in the process — so the place to go is to Alan Weinstein, the current Archivist, and his techs. They are the custodians of Softwear, Hardware, and the electronic content. (they have to have the programs and hardware in the interests of some historian 100 years from now who wants to read files.) You can well imagine that place has everything from Wordstar 1.0 up to the latest as well as the codes to old main frames and all.
National Archives is a federal agency — and yep, Waxman has oversight. This is where he needs to ask questions about archiving practices, and the work Archives tech’s have done with the Bushies. Tiz the “controlling Authority” to use old Gore Speak.
Now — Republican National Committee is a corporate entitity, with a board made up of State Chairs, co-chairs, and elected Committeepersons. It is incorporated — and any servers it leases or owns — they are the responsibility of the Corporate Entitity. Waxman is absolutely correct to deal only with the responsible officers in the current RNC — if necessary he can subpoena them, and he could hold them in contempt. (Imagine the Republican National Committee Woman in Montana getting a Waxman Subpoena along with 500 others like her!!!) — for policy about how to handle RNC Computer Content belongs to the membership, properly elected, of the RNC. It is one big board of directors that is legally responsible for operations. From what I can see Waxman is moving along this line — and the White House is trying to distract with lots of letters and noise.
I think Waxman can get much more information by following these two lines than he would ever get from Fitzgerald, even under a subpoena. Fitzgerald only needed to get the evidence necessary to his inductment — Waxman can ask the question, how does it work, who made what decisions, and did the Archives and Archivist fulfill their responsibilities under the Presidential Records Act. The answers are not in what the big names say — it is in the tech process…what did supervisors tell the line workers to do, given the agency mission.
At the RNC the matter is similar — the Committee Members are responsible for RNC policy, following the laws and all — and they hire technicians to do the work.
I think Waxman is going straight to where he needs to go –
Jay- seize the weird ceiling. That’s how I remember.
Hey, SOS – and other MA pups – email me at my name dot arr eye eff kay eye enn by way of the comcast network. Thanks@
Mary4 @ 78
Don’t forget, you still ned a court order. This is not a decison Pat gets to make, it’s a decision Walton gets to make upon a properly supported motion. At least that’s how I read the statute.
This information, though know to Team Fitz is not the property of Team Fitz, it is the property of the GJ and only a judge ca liberate it.
Marci;
“According to Mr. Kelner, the RNC had a policy, which the RNC called a “document retention” policy, that purged all e-mails from RNC e-mail accounts and the RNC server that was more than 30 days old.”
I was looking at this over on TLH, and what came to mind was, would the FEC consider this type of automatic purge of campaign-related emails to be somewhat questionable? Aren’t all campaign records supposed to be maintained for scrutiny according to FEC regulation?
…regardless if they were part of a White House cover-up?
I was a short-term interimmanager for a congressional campaign that past election, and I know we had to keep very detailed records, and that the FEC can jump in and look at those records on-demand. Or does that just apply to the financial part of the campaign? Even if that is the case, wouldn’t there be a lielihood that in those emails are bits of information pertinent to the financial issues, so deleting any of them constitutes violation of Federal Election statutes?
Kind of like in the move “the Firm,” where the overcharging became the legal case, or like Al Capone’s tax evasion, and Scooter’s perjury, if we can’t get them for general conspiracy to violate of the Presidential Records act, wouldn’t it seem likely that this monthly deletion could be another avenue for someone like, say, CREW to pursue?
Just wondered…
lhp – IANAL, but to clarify, not all of the evidence gathered during the whole of an investigation is property of the GJ for which only a selected chunk of evidence might be submitted, no ?
montag @ 120
Sorry, was led astray by Yahoo’s headline and recent timestamp to think it was something new. Thanks.
Batch 5; 1183
Apparently they didn’t want anything on tape, no doubt because, you know, it’s so coarse.
emptywheel @ 107
Actually, I think you are both right. I don’t think PJF was “chomping at the bit” to testify. I suspect that before he even got a chance to get to get very far into his own analysis of how best to handle Waxman’s request, Hertling headed him off at the pass.
Also, even the chat with Waxman or negotiation the way it was styled in the letter really didn’t work too well. The letter made it sound like Waxman wanted Pat to tell them where to look.
That would be an indirect disclosure of the GJ material. I know Washington is full of people that would either “wink, wink, nod , nod” and do that, or even folks who would honestly believe it was persmissable, but Mr. Scrupulous? I have a hard time picturing it.
I said it before and I will say it again, any info they want from Fitzgerald, I believe should only come after they have built a record that will sustain a motion to unseal the GJ material for use in the Congressional investigation into possible crimes.
There are no shortcuts here.
Jay @ 117
I soent a couple hours talking with comuter forensics people today. email is not transient. Email is forever. And both of them (2 different companies) seemed confident that it would not be hard (as in intellectually difficult) to find the emails sent through the RNC servers and puling them off hub servers.
It sounds like tedious backbreaking labor, but not complex.
Hey, I know this is probably a dumb question, but weren’t there any investigations pre-2006 into anything the Administration was up to? I mean, including ones that were just set up to look like something and then buried in the Repug majority. I remember that they at least said they were going to do some of this stuff. So wouldn’t any of those investigations have uncovered anything, even if it never amounted to anything? Was there really no one doing anything?
Sara @ 123, that was very helpful, thanks very much.
Georgesimian @ 133
No because the republ congress did not investigate anything.
Muzzy @ 128
If it was procured via GJ subpeona or was testimony given in the GJ, it’s GJ material
Marcy, your writing and logical skills amaze and delight.
Thanks for blessing us with the bounty of your fertile mind.
And thanks for tracing back the thread of obstruction.
Now why do people keep lying to the SIAC?
And why does Kyle Sampson – Sen Hatch’s protege – keep popping up to do the obstructing?
OK – that’s one reason they lie to Indian Affairs. Hundreds of billions of dollars for Big Energy/Mining. Cheney’s pals.
But why the same set of people connected to Hatch? Big Energy has plenty of BushBots from other Senators. Why Hatch?
Senator Hatch – the loyal servant of Rocky Mountain Energy/Mining – his protege and made man in the Utah Mafia is Kyle Sampson.
And Kyle Sampson just keeps popping up for obstruction of justice.
Maybe Kyle and the Utah Mafia just like to watch.
And Kyle, Orrin, and the Utah Mafia just haven’t noticed they’re paid like kings as they work to supplant our Republic with theocracy.
I went off to the Zoo for a quiet afternoon with The Kid, and we spent much of it watching meerkats popping up out of the tall weeds. Then I come back here to find Emptywheel doing the same thing.
;)
Something tells me that the Sunday talk show folks may do more than the usual prepping for their appearances. I’d love to see one of the shows — just one, I’m not greedy — bring in an IT person, and have them comment and question the designated WH/DOJ spinners. The networks bring in generals to talk about war and doctors to talk about medicine, so why not bring in the geek squad for this one?
Meanwhile, back at the ranch . . . what about Gonzales? Any word from him yet, or is he still deep in his so-called “murder board” preparation meetings?
twolf1 @ 122
twolf, any place to get real time info about this? A good friend lives between Hurst and DFW.
Don’t know about you guys, but I’d be awfully surprised if Karl Rove hasn’t been through at least a couple generations of new computers since 2000. Copying his hard drive just isn’t a very efficient way to try to get his deleted emails.
To paraphrase The Graduate,
“I want to say one word to you. Are you listening? Backups.”
new thread
looseheadprop,
That’s very encouraging to hear and I just read something similar over at HuffPo. The catch is that the blocks of data that remain on the disk (the one’s that are painstakingly mined and reconstructed by the forensic experts) after the original data is deleted will only remain intact until the blocks are re-used (i.e. more data is written to them). So if I have a 36GB hard drive on the PC that I’m sending mail from and I remove incriminating email in January but go on to fill up my that disk with new data in February….the original blocks have been overwritten and the deleted data is not retrievable.
Babbling Brooks on the NewsHour saying that Iraq now presents a mixed picture, unlike last year. Brooks would be struck mute if he didn’t have his talking points.
He takes a shot at Edwards who says the surge has failed. “How does he know?” blah, blah, blah. Give them time, know in a few months. 4 years of failure is not apparently enough for Brooks. Brooks is a total idiot.
McCain is a great man, impressive, etc. Sees young men and women who are suffering [and McCain’s answer is to keep them in harm’s way]. Yeah, that’s the ticket. Bobo doesn’t mention McCain’s Baghdad shopping trip. Goes back to Edwards saying the surge has failed is like he wants it to fail.
Brooks is a total waste of oxygen. Moronic doesn’t begin to cover it.
FYI, Siun is upstairs
want to think of something REALLY ironic?
how ’bout maybe sorta the nsa has copies of these emails?
tee hee
weather glimpse of the radar and warnings…
http://radar.weather.gov/Conus/southplains.php
Sara @
123
I could swear there was a major fire a couple of years back at the Olney facility. But I can’t find any mention of it. Anyone with a memory or link out there?
Jay @ 142
No you get it from the hub backup tapes
perris @ 145
Yea. I thought of that. But would they cooperate?
Mary McCurnin @ 149
not on your life they wouldn’t, it’s cheney’s baby…unless cheney wanted gonzales for some reason or another
JEP @ 146
Thanks, JEP. Jeebus.
i do believe there is also something smelly with dominici and the tribes in his state. the mega energy companies pay for easement leases across tribal lands, big dollahs. i don’t know which way dominici’s influence went, either towards perhaps abramoff’s tribal clients, or towards the big energy companies. but there are enough bucks in that system to make somebody some bucks, enough to influence an influential senator. i don’t know how to find out about it, but i hope someone does.
spurious @ 139
I’m in Fort Worth. A grocery store roof was blown off (tornado) but nothing else being reported locally. The hook echo (tornado) has disappeared form the radar. Baseball size hail was here and there, fast moving, probably past Dallas by now
nuncamas @ 152
Here’s a background – thanks again to Wampum:
lhp,
If the RNC possesses its own mail servers (and this is a critical point), they control whether or not that mail got backed up. Mail doesn’t sit on a “hub”, it only passes through every host it touches on the way to the recipients mail server (and those relay hosts will have nothing more than scant info about each piece of mail in system logs), and then, depending on how the recipient has their mail client (Outlook, et al.) configured, the mail can either stay on their mail server or get “popped” down to the recipient’s PC. Nowhere in that journey does the data get backed up unless the message is sitting on the server during the backup window (which is generally overnight).
looseheadprop @ 132
I think Mary and I (and you) are basically in agreement on what could happen.
My point was just that Waxman wasn’t talking about testimony. Yet even so, Hertling intervened, inventing a “long-standing custom” that I’m sure he knows much less about than Fitz. At the time Hertling did it–with the uncertainty about where USA Purge was headed, that pretty much squelched any legitimate process, which I’m sure was Hertling’s intent. But that is no longer true, and the email issue presents an opportunity to reopen the process, if Waxman wants to take it.
Though Sara has a good point–Asking Fitz about Rove’s email would only strengthen any subpoena case against WH–it wouldn’t provide more info than a straight subpoena of the RNC would do. Thing is, Congress might need or want just that much more cover before they start collecting the RNC’s servers.
Re Karl & IT. This is purely speculative on my part, but given his professional background with database marketing (Karl Rove & Co.), he’d likely have a decent management view of systems, hardware, etc. Not that he’d personally know all the details — although he is reputed to be so detail-focused — he’d know questions to ask, people to hire, etc.
FWIW.
Emptywheel
I am in awe of your abilities! DAMN!! Man, it seems like this is your destiny. Kudos and please don’t stop.
I have a quesion (imagine that!). If Rover had an email account through his consulting firm, is it not conceivable, then, that he may have had an email address on AOL, Yahoo or any number of other ISPs that only those inimate with him would know about and use?
It’s like hiding in plain sight, know what I mean?
Any thoughts or am I “overreaching?”
kirk murphy @ 138
Actually, there is longstanding animosity between the Mormon Church and the Native American tribes of the SW, as I understand it. Partly because they’ve got land disputes going back for 150 years. And partly because the LDS church has the same disrespect for the faith of Native Americans as it does for so many other faiths.
On the Clock @ 147
You’re probably thinking of the fire at Fort Meade
Pics here [give it a minute to load]
emptywheel @ 159
Thank you Marcy -
I keep cooking with too much snark and too little context.
Thanks for that essential framework.
looseheadprop @
132
Sen Leahy alluded to the same technical approach on the Senate floor: The email had gone through too many servers to be lost.
I’ll guess that The FBI under Fitz has NOT exhausted all options with the GOP servers, and has not tipped their hand with what they have so far.
Also, Fitz has to balance the investigation with the political implications (and roadblocks) vs his short term end-goal convicting the Cheney Firewall.
Fitz took years to get to Gov Ryan. Libby has yet to be sentenced. Maybe he’ll “turn” if the sentence is stiff.
Watch people under oath and see if they’re lying. Scare those yet to be indicted into telling the truth by not revealing what is known and Libby is proof perjury doesn’t work.
Fitz is a Jackie Robinson:
“Mr. Rickey, do you want a ballplayer who is afraid to fight back?”
“Robinson, I’m looking for a ballplayer with guts enough not to fight back.” …
Remember Sealed v Sealed
From Kos: (Around May 06)
Last Friday, Judge Reggie Walton, the presiding judge in the Libby trial, deliberated over a case titled “SEALED v. SEALED.” There is growing speculation that sealed v. sealed is Fitzgerald v. Gonzales’ Deputy, Paul McNulty (Fitzgerald’s direct superior).
The Wayne Madsen Report and the Chris Matthews Show have both floated the theory that Fitzgerald had secured indictments against Rove, but Gonzales –via McNulty– came in at the last second and used his power as Fitzgerald’s superior to kill the indictments.
IF, this theory is true, Fitzgerald would have likely challenged McNulty’s decision in court, pointing to an earlier administrative directive from then acting Attorney General James Comey that gave Fitzerald the “authority of the Attorney General.” Comey is long gone, however, and was replaced by McNulty. The question then becomes what, if any, value does Comey’s administrative directive have today.
One unfortunate realty of this scenario is that if the judge sides with McNulty, we will never know what really happened, because it will remained sealed. Which, is one explanation about why Rove is acting so smug these days and why the White House has not pulled back his public schedule.
What is the consensus among you lawyers who followed the Libby-Plame case? What happened to Sealed v Sealed?
Honestly? Fitz may have been a hero for his work with the sacrificial lamb Libby, but honestly, it’s no big deal. What is a big deal is a lack of movement by the justice department, the FBI, and any other “LAW” enforcement agency in this coverup. I can’t wait until the time when I’m arrested and I can say, “I forget”, I “accidentally erased the evidence”. What is wrong here? It was the same way with Foley. The government agencies refused to act until they were inundated with calls from common citizens. This country sucks. Give me USSR or give me death. Sorry, but that’s what we’ve become. No better, no worse. Please forgive us God for we know not, or care not what we do.
Peace!
Colossians 3:23
I think the reason they took Fitzgerald off the “to be fired”, er, I mean “to resign” list is because he agreed to stop at Libby. Anyone else agree? Hey, there’s been worse conspiracies. There was the twin towers. Thank you loyal Bushies for destroying our country!
Peace!
Colossians 3:23
john in sacramento @
160
That’s the one. Only five months ago, too. Dense times, dense times. tx
emptywheel @
91
Geez, when EW, Mary4, & LHP are all in alignment,
you can bet real money on ityou can start making plans accordingly!Bob in HI
emptywheel @
91
Unfortunately, my time allowed to edit my previous comment on this message elapsed before I could add this:
EW, I appreciate this reference to Hertling. Is it your opinion, then, that Hertling was told to keep a short leash on Fitzgerald, and that Hertling has been the main obstacle keeping Fitzpatrick from following up on the Libby conviction with other indictments?
No, not at all.
I think only that, when they saw Waxman invite Fitzgerald into chat, they intervened to prevent even that from happening. Had Fitz chatted to Waxman (understandbly saying, “no, you need to do the proper paperwork), then eventually Waxman would have gotten at least some of the GJ information.
But Hertling jumped in.
It owuldn’t have led to indictments, just potentially furthre movement into it.
Don’t know if you folks saw Luskin’s quote from ABC News (at the end of the story):
Somebody’s got copies of the RNC & Karl’s pre-summer 2004 (August, perhaps?) hard drives and apparently Karl doesn’t mind sharing privileged info.
Thanks for that link, Isbister.
With regard to Luskin’s new statement, note this language from Special Counsel Fitzgerald’s August 27, 2004 Affidavit, which he submitted to the D.C. District Court in opposition to Motions to Quash grand jury subpoenas — in this case motions filed to quash subpoenas issued to Judith Miller and (apparently) Walter Pincus [from Page 29 of the Affidavit, emphasis added]:
And just to connect another dot, now that we’ve been given a specific time-frame by Luskin (Rove’s attorney):
His “innocent” explanation to ABC News for Rove’s handling of email fails to account for the fact that Luskin felt the need in October, 2004 (just as Matthew Cooper was being held in contempt of court for refusing to testify about his Rove conversation) to first desperately search for and suddenly find, and secondly ensure that Rove handed over to the grand jury on October 15, a paper copy of an email that had been printed off Rove’s computer in November, 2003, and had apparently been in Luskin’s possession since [the infamous 7/11/03 Rove-Hadley email re Cooper]. Why didn’t Luskin and Rove assume/know that Fitzgerald would already have possession of said email as a result of his forensic work and ‘full’ access to Rove’s computer data in “the summer of 2004″ (as well as from the normal course of document production in fall, 2003)? Or did they so assume? And did Fitzgerald already have that email from another source or source(s)? Or not? And if not, why not, Mr. Luskin???
So, what happens when two “ongoing” investigations collide, Waxman’s and Fitzgerald’s?
And since the Abramoff investigation (Carol Lam) and Valerie Plame-outing investigation (Patrick Fitzgerald) appear to overlap timewise, what was the scuttlebutt circulating around the Justice Department about Carol Lam’s aggressive pursuit of everyone connected to Abramoff compared to Patrick Fitzgerald going after apparently all those in the White House behind the outing of Valerie Plame, but finally settling on only charging one of the culprits, Scooter Libby, with lying and obstructing justice?
In other words, in the Republican-dominated Justice Department, the aggressive manner in which Carol Lam was pursuing charges against a whole slew of Republicans associated with Abramoff, following the trail of Republican corruption wherever it led her, would have raised some eyebrows, and caused some alarm, especially among the purely-partisan political operatives (like Rove, Gonzales, Goodling, Sampson, etal.), thus finally leading to her being fired unceremoniously.
On the other hand, there is still a lingering suspicion (at least on my part) about how aggressive Patrick Fitzgerald has been in bringing charges against the White House officials responsible for disclosing the beyond-top-secret identity of a covert CIA officer, which then led to the further disclosure of her clandestine intelligence-gathering network, causing irreparable harm to our national security.
So, this is why I hope Waxman gets Fitzgerald before him to ask him questions like: over the past several years, what was the scuttlebutt circulating around the Justice Department regarding Carol Lam’s aggressive investigation into all things Abramoff? Was there any indication in the rumors that her job was in jeopardy because of her digging into all things Abramoff? If so, Mr. Fitzgerald, what was your reaction to hearing that Mrs. Lam’s job status as a U.S. Attorney was endangered due to her trying to get to the bottom of some apparently widespread Republican corruption? And Mr. Fitzgerald, did the rumors that Karl Rove and Alberto Gonzales were out to “get” Carol Lam have any effect on your not bringing treason charges against Dick Cheney, Karl Rove and any other White House officials involved in intentionally or unintentionally (Ha!) disclosing Valerie Plame’s beyond-top-secret CIA identity? And finally, Mr. Fitzgerald, were any blatant or veiled threats made to you or anyone on your investigative team by anyone in the White House or Justice Department?
I guess why I’m curious about all this is that I haven’t seen any indication yet that Patrick Fitzgerald had the RNC’s email server seized upon his learning that the Republicans had established an email “back channel” to circumvent the law regarding and requiring executive branch record preservation. And because it wasn’t seized, no forensic retrieval of any emails relating to the Valerie Plame case was attempted.
Oh, and a sidenote. If a computer, blackberry or whatever is paid for with taxpayer money, then the White House officials don’t own it, we do. On the other hand, by the RNC handing out blackberries, etc. and setting up a “back channel” email service, not paid for with taxpayer money, then you know they figured on getting around the records preservation law in this way, and all these RNC-donated items would have disappeared once Bush’s last term in office ended, even though all these RNC-donated items were heavily used in daily White House activities.
Just another loophole Gonzales and his legal weasels have exploited. Like the term “waterboarding” not being specifically mentioned in the Geneva Conventions.
emptywheel… please explain