Photo from the team at Hometown Baghdad Click to hear Said and friends sing in Baghdad
Nicole from Crooks and Liars sent me a note yesterday about a new online video project titled Hometown Baghdad . This web based video series is a joint project between Chat the Planet and Iraqi filmakers and profiles the lives of 3 "twenty-something" Baghdadis: Saif has just finished his degree in Dentistry, Ausama is studying at the University of Baghdad Medical School, and Adel is "an aspiring rock musicial living in a very dangerous neighborhood in Baghdad." As the HometownBaghdad team writes: "The everyday life of the Iraqi citizen has been the great untold story of the Iraq war."
So far, there are eleven episodes of Hometown Baghdad available – both on the site and on YouTube . They have planned 45 in the full series and the filmakers blog and comment at the website so this exploration of everyday life also encourages conversation.
Chat the Planet is also working on more online conversations that bridge geographic and political distance. At their site, which is just getting started, there are three fascinating short videos of discussions between American and Iraqi college students. Let's hope these are just the first of many such conversations they let us listen in on.
Another untold story of the reality of life in occupied Iraq is more tragically reported in an article that appeared in the New Yorker's March 26 edition. (Special thanks to MarkfromIreland for pointing me to this article!) Betrayed: The Iraqis who trusted America is an extraordinary piece of reporting by George Packer.
Betrayed is based on lengthy interviews Packer conducted in Baghdad with Iraqi translaters who have been working for the American occupation since the start of the war. These are men who welcomed the invasion, hoped for a brighter future for their country and risked everything to help the American forces. Their reasons are varied but their experiences are tragically uniform. Take the story of Ali, an Iraqi who grew up in Pennsylvania until his family was trapped in Iraq on a visit to their extended family during the Iran-Iraq war. Ali was recruited by American troops during the initial invasion to help with translations:
Ali initially worked the night shift at a base in his neighborhood and walked home by himself after midnight. In June, 2003, the Americans mounted a huge floodlight at the front gate of the base, and when Ali left for home the light projected his shadow hundreds of feet down the street. “It’s dangerous,” he told the soldiers at the gate. “Can’t you turn it off when we go out?”
“Don’t be scared,” the soldiers told him. “There’s a sniper protecting you all the way.”
A couple of weeks later, one of Ali’s Iraqi friends was hanging out with the snipers in the tower, and he thanked them. “For what?” the snipers asked. For looking out for us, Ali’s friend said. The snipers didn’t know what he was talking about, and when he told them they started laughing.
“We got freaked out,” Ali said. The message was clear: You Iraqis are on your own.
Ali's story is just one of the many Packer recounts. The Iraqi employees were never protected and never recognized as a critical resource for a military that not only could speak no Arabic but also had no understanding of the culture and country it had invaded. While translaters daily risked their lives, their employers treated them as disposable. And as the Iraqis began to question whether they would be evacuated when American forces leave Iraq, they learned just how disposable they are:
When, a month later, Khalilzad met with a large group of Iraqi employees to hear their concerns, Firas attended reluctantly. After the Iraqis raised the possibility of immigrant visas to the U.S., Khalilzad said, “We want the good Iraqi people to stay in the country.” An Iraqi replied, “If we’re still alive.”
Those who have left – and the new preference in the Green Zone is to replace the Iraqis with employees from Jordan – find themselves unwelcome in the surrounding countries where the waves of Iraqi refugees are overwhelming the capacity of countries like Syria and Jordan to provide a haven and where these translaters are seen as traitors. The Bush administration's refusal to provide asylum is – says Packer – part of the fundamental dishonesty of the war and occupation:
The Embassy officials struck me as decent, overworked people, yet I left the interview with a feeling of shame. The problem lay not with the individuals but with the institution and, beyond that, with the politics of the American project in Iraq, which from the beginning has been conducted under the illusion that controlling the message mattered more than the reality. A former official at the Embassy told me, “When we say that the corridors of power are insulated, is it that the officials aren’t receiving the information, or is it because the construct under which they’re operating doesn’t even allow them to absorb it?” To admit that Iraqis who work with Americans need to be evacuated would blow a hole in the Administration’s version of the war.
In an answer to a reader's question about the article, Packer writes:
On every trip to Iraq, I have met remarkable American individuals in military and civilian ranks, but, like most people I have talked to about Iraq, I am stunned by the level of general American incompetence there. It obviously has to do with leadership. Richard Armitage, when I interviewed him, placed the blame on a complete lack of accountability at the highest levels. But I have also come to believe that Iraq represents a larger failure than just that of individuals in the Bush Administration or the Administration as a whole. Across the board, American institutions have failed. A war on this scale puts a whole country to the test, like a human body that’s been slack for a while and then is suddenly exerted to the limits of its strength. In Iraq, we’ve failed as a country.
His report is a stunning indictment of that failure – and our failure as Americans to look outside our borders. We are fast to invade, but tragically lacking in knowledge, experience or even much curiosity about the the lives of the people of Iraq or the Middle East in general. We can hope that efforts like Hometown Baghdad and Chat the Planet will bring us at least one step closer to understanding and recognition of our common humanity.
And as we seem to teeter on the verge of yet another war in the region, it's important that we learn more about Iran as well. Radio Agonist had a particularly good segment on Iran this week – but then SeanPaul and Ian Welsh's work at The Agonist is one of my top go-to's for reliable commentary on the Middle East. This week's episode discusses the ABC hype story about Iran and is definitely worth a listen. And if you haven't seen SeanPaul's travel piece from his trip to Iran, click here .
Related posts:
- Torture: Obama Heeded Maliki on Abuse Photos, Says McClatchy; What That Says for Our Occupation
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Jurgen Todenhofer, Why Do You Kill?: The Untold Story of the Iraqi Resistance
- The Debris of an Occupation
- Valuing Democracy: Iran, Iraq and the War Supplemental
- Remember Iraq or Ray Odierno is Still Wrong





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zed?
Now to go read the post…
Siun!
ah Dakine! Zed to you!
and hi rxbusa!
Siun:
This is from MSNBC:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18009802/
A translator killed today.
There was a really sad piece on This American Life a few weeks ago about how the US treated a translator. It is called “Kill the Messenger” and is about 20 minutes into the piece you can listen to at this link.
I just don’t understand how we could have treated people we needed so badly so badly. And why any Iraqi would want to help us now is beyond me.
dakine – I hadn’t seen that … Packer’s piece is quite something.
Most people (and I have to include myself) have no more knowledge of life in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan today than our understanding of life in Kosovo, Darfur, Colombia, or anywhere else in the world where violence is rampant and life is cheap. Just as we had little to no understanding of life in VietNam or anywhere else our adventuring has gotten us in trouble.
I read somewhere of 10 US casualties over this weekend, including 6 killed on Easter Sunday. How many more stabs to the heart can we take? Not to mention the unreported US casualties, and the many more Iraqis liberated from their lives.
But I have also come to believe that Iraq represents a larger failure than just that of individuals in the Bush Administration or the Administration as a whole. Across the board, American institutions have failed.
I’d love to ask Packer which ones. For instance, the State Department came up with a pretty good plan for the postwar, which was shunted aside – by Packer’s own account in The Assassins’ Gate – by Cheney and Rummy, and their subordinates.
There are many ways this country failed in Iraq, but we usually didn’t find out about it – the CPA’s kiddie corps, Abu Ghraib, Walter Reed – until after the fact.
Our failure in Iraq is a Bush-Cheney failure. And a Rummy-Wolfie-Feith failure. Spreading the blame more widely is silly.
I demand to be out of Iraq now. And I absolutely demand a Palestinian homeland. I am rad on these things.
Siun
Could you do me a favor? Could you contact Scarecrow and ask him to pass on the following information to Andrew Cockburn?
On page 173 of Cockburn’s book he talks about the Iraqi postinvasion insurgency plan that was transmitted by Indian intelligence to U.S. just before the invasion. The additional information about that plan, not is his book, is:
This courtesy of my army major efriend.
Thanks.
eCAHNomics – I’ll make sure Scarecrow gets the message.
Siun @ 13
Thanks. I was pretty blown away at the additional information.
“The Prince” by Machiavelli pg 35 “Thus you find enemies in all those whom you have injured by occupying that dominion, and you cannot maintain the friendship of those who have helped you to obtain this possession, as you will not be able to fullfill their expectations,”
These have been out there for a couple of weeks. I don’t know where I saw them, Bag Notes, ‘One Good Move’ – but speaks more to our failure(s) than these takes.
Happy Easter
Put me on this fucking watch list, because I am proud to be an enemy of this totalitarian GOP regime and all its officials. The laws no longer apply.
Wordsmith @ 16
You want to try that in english? *s*
Since the desire for invasion and occupation stemmed from so many illegitimate motives–oil, permanent troops in the Middle East, the remaking of Iraq as a laboratory experiment in privatization, domestic political dominance–the effort had to be judged as a failure from the start.
Even well-meaning individuals must have had to suppress the raw fact that they were, in mutually seeking to serve the aims of both Iraqis and the US, classic colonialists.
After all, many of the people who made a mess of Iraq were reasonably intelligent people, but they were consistently applying that intelligence to those initial–and perverted–US aims. The implications of that for the lives of ordinary Iraqis were obvious from the start.
1,480 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Suin and the Firepup Patriots:
Thank you so much for reminding us that the real victim in this terrible war is humanity. That is the suffering of innocents and our lost capacity to recognize and feel the humanity of others.
I don’t think very many Amerikans have a clue how close we are to being isolated and ostracized by the rest of humanity. There can be no “victory” in this war of corporate anarchy, only a slow recovery from a near fatal disease. Like so many casualties of this horrible conflict who have lost limbs or sight…we have lost a part of our collective soul that we can never recover. We can only hope for forgiveness from the rest of the world if we promise to spend the rest of our sorry lives tryin’ to rid the world of the grotesque, amoral corporate monsters we have let lose on humanity.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, WE DO IT FOR THE CHILDREN BECAUSE WE ARE BEYOND REDEMPTION!!
Montag – good point!
Colonialism never works out well – ever.
traitor @ 18
Un-be-liev-able.
What label do place on the horrors visited by our’s and the Israeli government upon the people of the West Bank and Gaza?
The first people to immigrate are those who are able to leave people with money, but not enough money for bodyguards. Since Jordan a U.S ally is reportedly only letting in the old and sick with money and not letting the Iraq’s work in that country. Large portions of the almost 1 in 5 Iraq’s who immigrate are going to Syria and if Shite Iran, no word on Saudia Arabia immigration policy the other Arab states are accepting some refuges. The problem is the refuges immigrants who are educated and have money are disportionately going to countries that hate America. What will the economic effect of a few hundred Doctors,Engineers etc be onto these countries? Never mind the thousands with lesser degrees? If Holy Joe played Chess he might look a few moves ahead and realize that the threat Iraq was to Israel has now moved to two other countries. Just when America is getting tired of middle east wars. If our enemies work to intergrate this population into their society and get them jobs where they contribute their max to society, then Syria and Iran might move up 10 yrs or so on average in devolepment of anything from WMD to industrial production.
traitor @ 18
Yes! The Mandate of Heaven has Passed Rebelion is justified!
I recall someone saying once that when Americans want to fix something, they declare war on it. “War on poverty”, “war on drugs” etc etc
I have a particular interest in the subject of autism. Recently, Congress passed a bill regarding Autism, which was called, naturally, “The Combat Autism Act.”
I’m glad Congress wants to help, but could do without the militarism…
Siun @
22
Oh I don’t know. I’d be game to test this theory.. say, by colonizing Lynchburg, or Crawford.
anyone else read Cannonfire on this strange translation of facts from Reuters to WaPo?
Cannonfire
How can this type of erasing/fudging/spinning be exposed?
Letter From Crawford
White House Delivers a Spring Break Punch to Get Back in the Fight
NYT
I am so sick of reading about the plotting and infighting between the Dems and Repugs when our kids are dying.
I guess losing most of the plants at our house,all the fruit , and its still cold has really brought me down.
OT, and man oh man am I pissed off!!!!
HOW *DARE* HE!!!!!!!
1,480 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen oklahoma kiddo and the Firepup Patriots:
With regard to this war and justice for the Palestinians, I have been thinkin’ lately that maybe one of the results of our humiliation in Iraq will be the realization by Israel that we will not be able to remain on the continent in any numbers and that their security is gunna hafta come from gaining the acceptance of their neighbors. In fact, maybe this is indeed the “end of empire” and therefore the end of nearly 600 years of colonialism in Africa and the “near east”.
I hope ya don’t think this romantic fantasy was brought on by any ingestion of hallucinogens…I did however spend Easter Sunday with a few a my unregenerate hippy friends (must be the contact high).
KEEP THE FAITH AND TAKE CARE OF THE CHILDREN AND MAYBE WE WILL HAVE A FUTURE!!
things come undone @ 25
My mind goes back to old greek myth,,,the children of the teeth of the serpent,or some such….we plant the seeds for the destruction of our own way of life with the actions of those whose we have chosen/selected to rule…this administration does not go by consent of the governed…
eCAHNomics @
12
Got it. thanks. interesting stuff. I’ll pass it on.
blueheron – that is very interesting indeed!
I get my Iraq news primarily from Iraqi sources – to avoid just such rewrites.
It would be interesting to see if there are any photos from that raid … we’ll have to check
I agree, EDP, how dare he indeed.
EDP —
Isn’t it a little late for that?!
NorskeFlamethrower @ 32
;0)
Here are some images from Iran:
http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html
Let’s NOT bomb them.
Vocabulary word for Cassie
Dehumanise to take away another person’s humanity. When we dehumanise Arabs we make it easier in our own minds to treat other people in ways that we would not want to be treated under similar circumstances. Bushies love to dehumanise Arabs, Liberals etc to give their “ingroup ” an “outgroup ” to hate.
Ingroup the group you belong to shared ideas, values, goals membership in the group qualifies you as human in that groups eyes and deserving of the protections of law.
Outgroup a group that doesn’t share your views identity etc a group the ingroup uses as a focal point to rally their group against the “enemy”
Please note these are only crude definitions I am trying to both explain and make relevant to our cause. I suggest looking these words up!
bcf @ 27
Whats the latest words on possible cures and causes?
EvilDrPuma @ 31
Hmm, big disconnect there. After all, this is the guy who declared, all by himself, a “global war on terror” that would go on for generations.
Perpetual war for perpetual peace, as Gore Vidal says.
Notice he avoided his local church this time around….
Suzanne @ 36
I literally had a screaming fit when I read that. This is beyond the pale of hypocrisy. This is so far beneath contempt that the distance is measurable in astronomical units. After more than five years of continuous warmongering, for Bush to make a statement like that is such an incomparable expression of unselfconscious evil that I can barely hold my dinner in my stomach!
We in the usa have forgotten what it was like to have a truely BAD ruler.What concerns me is the fact he has 2 more years to shit in the punchbowl….that is if he leaves under his own power…
Greenwarrior -thank you for posting that! I had seen it and lost the link … it’s a lovely piece!
My old webmaster was from Tehran and we spoke a lot about what it was like growing up there and how his family felt since they still live there … he always said, they just want to live their lives!
That’s what we constantly miss – that people are just people, deserving of a chance to live and be left alone. They are not our chattel or simply tools for american power and domination.
Hmm Norske, this rings a bell with regard to the JP article from the previous thread. Neocons are doubly sensitive to our ending the occupation in Iraq cuz they lose a bit of justification for Isr occupation in WB and Gaza…
So its cool to them for our kids die there, just so they don’t have to be the only ones occupying foreign soil. Lovely.
blueheron @ 29
I wonder how many of the explosives were “liberated” from Saddam’s Al-QaQaa ammo dump, which was SO unguarded by the US Armed Forces that the “insurgents” carted its contents off in pickup trucks… :(
Thanks for this important post siun – a big double DING! I remember the recent New Yorker piece and it also made me weep.
OT – I have managed to put Joe Liar Lieberman completely out of my thoughts -sometimes denial can be healthy. But I have become increasingly frustrated so few in the House & Senate will stand up and call for their impeachment. Nancy Pelosi in the wings could save countless lives and get our troops home without further carnage in all of our names.
“EFPs” are actually quite simple to make – MarkfromIreland has written about it and also about how foolish all this nonsense about them is.
Shaped charges are old technology – but W and pals assume we don’t know that and that they can sell us another war.
If anyone were to think that an attack on Iran was off the table, I would question that. And would ask on what basis do you arrive at that assumption?
EFP link from GorillasGuides – read this so you’re prepared for the next round of hype:
info on EFPs
Oklahoma kiddo @ 50
FWIW I sure hope it’s off the table, because W must be being told that the only way he can attack is from the air, and probably via tactical nukes. And further that to do so would virtually certainly start WWIII. If ya wanted to attack Iran, doodiehead, it would have been much easier if you hadn’t broken the Army by getting them bogged down in Iraq.
snuffy @ 33
Ragnaork we begin again! I keep thinking myself of that book the Twelve Caesres never mind the personal vices, its the arrogance and stupidity of the Emperors that destroyed the empire. I don’t think we can survie 12
It’s case sensitive :-)
You’re welcome. Just point out that a memo from Khalizad to State Dept about the terror felt by employees of the “embassy” in Baghdad as to their fate was leaked and that even a few months ago the “embassy” in Baghdad was destroying Iraki employees records.
I commented in the last thread that people in the US have no idea how much the American troops and occupation officials are hated and despised. That pales into insignificance compared to how Irakis who’ve worked for the Americans, the British, all the other invaders are.
They’re seen as traitors first to Islam and secondly to Irak – their fate will be grim.
Good posting.
One point to make – people in the west assume (reasonably enough) that the Irakis they “meet” and read on the internet are typical. They’re not. The avarage Iraki is:
15 or 16 years old.
Male.
an Islamist.
Living in grinding poverty courtesy of sanctions and the invasion. They place the blame for the hell their country has become fairly and squarely where it belongs – on the people who invaded their home and kicked over pretty much every functional part of their society.
They’re not especially interested in dialogue right now.
Good posting – good materials – very important material but the reality is that those people are very very far from typical. Siun knows that and thinks about it time a lot of other people did too.
Let me quote a typical Iraki:
Mohammed is 16. I’ve known him since before he could walk. He’s a formiddable linguist. One parent Sunni one Shia. That’s very typical btw.
He writes in Arabic first and then he and his mates sit down and translate. He wrote a piece describing the al-Sadriya bombing.
Since he wrote that piece:
Laith Abu Mohammed his father died in the Arbaeen massacres of March 6th.
Zeynab Um Mohammed his mother died of her wounds incurred in the same attack on March 7th.
Hussayn Ibn Laith died a few days before his parents as he ran with his resuce team to the scene of a bombing to rescue survivors – it was a cascaded bombing attack. IOW more than one bomb the second one being timed to kill the rescuers and or people fleeing the scene. Hussayn was the brother who Mohammed mentions in “what will we talk about.” Hussayn was 17.
Ali Ibn Laith was wounded together with his father and mother in the March 6th attack. He is physically recovering well. Mohammed and he completed the pilgrimage on foot to complete what their parents were doing.
Ali is 8.
There is one other sibling.
Aged 16 Mohammed is the head of a household consisting of himself, his younger brother who can now walk again for short periods and a sibling well into a nervous breakdown.
He is far more typical of Irak than university students. I’m going to quote him directly:
It is now 04:38 .A.M. – Goodnight
newspaperbrat @ 48
I am thinking that the reason for her holding fire is the backlash that newt got after going after clinton.She{speakerPelosi}wants a hands-down sweep the next cycle,and will do it with investigations that will start getting interesting,and nasty just about the time folks start really paying attention to national politics…problem is for this stratigy..way too many people want action NOW…
So Jr. is down in Ft. Hood just a prayin’ for peace. Well, Jr., get your sorry self back to work and sign that little piece of legislation the Senate is about to send you… then turn around and pick up the phone… tell the generals to start redeployin’ now while nobody expects it.. might be a little safer on the troops, don’t cha think?
You lying war criminal! [even your God knows it]
Dear Siun, there are times I can’t finish your posts through my tears. Today was one of them. I think they were mostly tears of shame.
Namaste.
Eureka Springs @ 56
You’re right about that. To borrow one of the fundies’ favorite lines, God is not mocked. Least of all by stupid, narcissistic worldly rulers.
Goodnight MfI! and thank you for both the link and the info on EFPs I quoted before and more than anything for the reminder of Mohammed and his generation.
Eureka Springs @ 56
Standing on chair clapping, ES. Bravo!
markfromireland @ 54
This is what I fear most…thse folks are tribal,and will be takeing their revenge on us ,as a nation, for the next 1000 years..
Mommybrain -
How nice to see you. Hope your Easter was as Happy as possible, despite the many reasons for tears.
Mommybrain – what’s the Joe Hill line – Don’t Mourn, Organize!
though I do think it is important that we take the time and spirit to mourn and to feel – our connection with our brothers and sisters in Iraq and around the world. Then we need to get back out there and fight some more.
Siun @ 51 Thanks,!!
Read it and found it very informative, which leads me to wonder what exactly such a “factory” looks like and agree that most of us do not realize there is no need to import such devices with the expertise and the materials already on hand. Very interesting.
Mommybrain @
57
I just finished reading the comments and some of the links and was thinking of saying the same thing, Mommybrain. As bad as Saddam was, these people would have been far, far better off without our “help.”
snuffy – I’m always uncomfortable with the “these folks are tribal” wording. Don’t mean to pick on you here but we should be careful about this I think.
I’m Irish and I have not forgotten nor will I the oppression my people have suffered. Am I “tribal” or just human – and smart enough to keep my eyes on oppressors?
Subway Serenade @ 17
What a beautiful story….it’s wonderful to feel its light. Thank you so much.
EvilDrPuma @
31
No fuckin way.
rxbusa @ 68
Fuckin’ way.
blueheron @ 63
Factory is probably a misnomer. Most of it could be done in a relatively small shop, with a few basic machine tools, at most. A lathe big enough to cut up artillery shell casings (or well pipe, whatever), a welder, an oven to melt down explosives for casting and something to melt down scavenged copper wire and cast it into the ball slugs would be generally what was required.
Might all fit in a typical suburban double garage….
BLueheron – we forget that Iraq was an advanced society – with superb medical care etc until we chose to destroy it. Our government gets away with so much because we know so little which I guess is what I was saying in this post. We need to make connections and learn and open dialogues.
Siun –very heavy stuff here.
WAS an advanced society until WE chose to destroy it.
I guess we forget because even those of us who know better are unconsciously influenced by the repetitions of administration’s unending narrations. Baghdad Burning, both books certainly opened my eyes. Thanks for the thoughts.
Our next-door neighbors of 25 years (they just moved away to a condo now that their kids are grown) are Iranian. They have been like family to us. Whenever I was in the hospital (for babies, various removal of parts) they brought home-cooked meals to my family every day. When they lost their house for a year, we kept their dog until they got their house back. We have watched their kids grow up into outstanding adults. They love the United States, where they have been since the ouster of the Shah.
The idea of attacking our friends’ homeland is just sickening. The idea of Americans – Americans – attacking anyone’s homeland is just sickening. Are we really at that place?
I was so sure that Americans did not do this.
greenwarrior@67
Namaste.
It might be already to late but might I suggest that if bush really wanted to win in Iraq he could start building some water desaltification plants in Iraq and begin a massive tree growing effort to help fix the soil. Trees cool down the earth underneath a little postive climate change could only help.
Sigh I ‘m still here – that EFP article was written by me. I started out as a bomb disposal officer. It is VERY easy to make an EFP which is a ridiculous bloody acronym to start off with. The technology to do so has been around since the late 1700s.
All you need is a some pipe, (garden pipe works very well thank you) Some explosive. Some copper bowls that you can buy for the equivalent of a few cents in any market in Irak and a piece of string.
“Factory” my *rs* 20 minutes work in a garage or a basement or your living room ……
Did I mention that Irak has a lot of skilled mechanics and tradesmen who hate what’s being done to their country by the invasding troops?
Irak has a lot of skilled mechanics and tradesmen who hate what’s being done to their country by the invading troops and are keen to make their displeasure felt. It not going to get better far from it. They’re going to attack and attack and attack and keep on attacking until the invaders leave. The don’t care anyomore what it takes. They don’t care what it takes. Anything is worth it to get the invaders out anything
things come undone – Bush has already lost the war …now we see how long it takes for washington to realize and leave. Sadly, I think it will take a long time and mean many more deaths.
EvilDrPuma @ 43
Yes, he is absolutely evil. His continued presence in the White House blackens it more and more daily. Examples of his hypocrisy and lack of morality are everywhere. Take his withdrawing the nomination of Sam Fox (swiftboater of Kerry) because of all the Democratic opposition. As soon as everyone’s back is turned and recess is happening, he turns around and appoints him Ambassador to Belgium. Then there’s his “Clear Skies Initiative” and “No Child Left Behind”. It’s not like anything he’s said before can be trusted. This is just the most egregious of the hypocrisy. And many of his actions are yet still way more egregious than these words. Every day he stays in the White House he destroys more and more of what most people hold dear. /end rant
The military “won” the war (in 3 weeks). Bush has lost the “politics”.
kemo @ 79
It’s good you put “won” in quotes, because all they were doing was Bush’s bidding–from the start. There was no winning to be done under the circumstances created. It was lost from the outset.
Siun @ 64
Siun,what I mean is that a substantual portion of this population…a lot of those with the misfortune of still being there now, has a 12th cent. mindset as far as the”eye for a eye”.My younger brother spent 6 years in the middle east,was ambasador Sam Lewis’s bodyguard during the sadat peace accords…which he{sadat} paid for with his life..What I he has told me was they are very very old fasioned about justice…which should make us very nervous.
all
Sadaam was a brutal dictator
That said, he ruled over a functional society with artificially maintained poverty due to the embargo and attendant corruption implimenting the humanitarian exceptions.
I can accept all these things as fact and still confidently state that the worst thing for the Iraqi and American people was the cynical and idiotic invasion and occupation.
Absolutely
And NONE of this should come as the slightest surprise.
American foreign policy has been cynicaly exploited for the interrests of a select few.
My greatest fear is that those open dialogues may be all but impossible for a generation or two.
Siun @
4
What strange language is this?
snuffy @ 81
What, you mean they have a different culture? No shit, Dick Tracy! Now, can we leave this “12th-century mindset” bullshit at the door and deal with what is instead of trying to impose our own blinkered ethnocentric labels on it?
Balrog @ 83
Elfinish, isn’t it? :)
Wonder what it looks like in runes? :)
No they didn’t – there was almost no fighting. They won the first of a series of battles to occupy Irak.
Those battles are continuing and they’re not being won. In effect the US has had a failed (re)occupation of Irak once every fours years and a “surge” once every 6 months. That’s not called winning that’s called losing.
Montag, I know, but I feel it is important to separate the concepts, to avoid the “support the troops” jargon.
We could say have lost the “occupation”.
montag @ 85
There you go, runing the mood again.
Snuffy – I understand what you are saying but again, am uncomfortable with the frame. We still practice the death penalty, our pundits talk of how if the sailors seized by Iran had been american, they would have fought and died and that would somehow have been more “honorable,” we decide to take over a country like Iraq and we send an army, kill 650,000 and destroy all semblance of infrastucture … I am not at all clear that it is “this population” as you word it who “has a 12th century mindset.”
montag @ 85
Is this it?
MFI, I agree, there was no gloating in overthrowing a third world country, with no air cover, outdated artillary, etc. But we can still agree that the GI’s did what they were asked to do and were successful. That way we avoid the Repug comebacks.
Kirk! good to see you and what a perfect link!
kemo @ 91
I don’t feel like agreeing with that. The GIs were asked to do wrong. They were asked to do something that could result in no worthwhile gain for Iraq, its people, the U.S., or the planet as a whole. There was no success. There could never have been a success. And if the Thugs want to throw their fucking comebacks at me, bring ‘em on!
kemo @ 87
“Supporting the troops” is an artificial construct created by the right wing to encourage the public to accept foreign entanglements. You genuinely support the military by keeping your leaders (and the military’s leaders) on a very short leash.
Little adventures into places far away are not what the Constitution intended to allow. They grow into big misadventures, as people like Madison and Jefferson understood implicitly.
snuffy @ 81
For the record I was in Egypt when he was killed. Do you remember all the adulatory coverage of him in the west? I do. I also remember how hated his mukhbarat were and the complete and utter indifference on the street to his death. Nobody and do mean nobody gave a damn that he was dead. He was from their POV a sell out and not worth even spitting at his memory. Who did not turn up to his funeral were the Egyptian populace.
i believe iraq is a test of pnac’s plan and it has gone verrrry wrong but they’ll not admit it. now iraq is broken and we can’t fix it so why not destroy it…. we have no respect for them and the iraqis know it now its being ratcheted up..now more nat’l guard troops are preparing to be sacrificed and its just disgusting!!
Hi Siun!
Thanks for illustrating the catastrophe we have brought in Iraq.
——-
(glad you like the link: at first glance, the writing looked Runic to me, but this has been a fertile day for my weedier ideas…)
Subway Serenade @ 74
Is that you sing the Subway Serenade song? I hadn’t heard it before.
weedy, eh Kirk …
we’ll leave that line alone!
markfromireland @ 76
thanks. what does IOW mean?
Sorry kemo – but you’re flat out wrong.
The occupation has been characterised by massive brutality on the part of the occupiers. Saddam Hussein for crying out loud should not have been a difficult act to follow.
I0W = acronym for “in other words” :-)
greenwarrior @ 100
In Other Words.
I’m trying to stay off the wry zone….
sigh…
The warrin’ seems endless
TRex has the saga of the modem upstairs
Was that the one TRex ate?
Poor modem – last memory was bright eyes and big teeth
(and relatively small forelimbs)
That we are civilized,could be questioned,our culture,such as it is,could be written on the back of a cereal box.
Yes,I remember Mark.My brother gave the same analisis,when he returned.
Our millitary was used for a particularly nasty bit of theivery from the Iraqs.All the troops I have spoke with Know it.I know several who were fotunate enough to come back in ! piece.The payback to this administration will be from those who come back…
Kirk Murphy, appy EAster to you, too. I’m sitting by a fire pit in Ojai with friends and relations, one of whom is a Canadian Rock Star, listening to my husband jam with his cousins. It is a very happy easter.
Bless you, MFI, for your tireless work on behalf of the Iraqi people. A woman I know is Iraqi, her family fled Iraq when Saddam came to power because her father was targeted by Saddam. She was at first elated that someone was going after him but is now crushed at what is happening. She thinks it will not be right again in her lifetime.
montag @ 70
You could cut up the shell casings with a decent hacksaw or bandsaw. A lathe isn’t as good for that, anyway.
—
Last month (IIRC) CNN.com ran a poll on whether the US should allow in more Iraqi refugees. I am ashamed to say that more than half the people answering said no. (I wasn’t one of them.) We’ve done so much damage to their country that we ought to have to take more – 7000 so far? It should be 700,000.
And Bush should get what he’s praying for, because it won’t come in the way he expects. He wants peace and the troops safe? Well, impeachment will do that. (I’d say what I think should happen to him, but the mods would have to censor this.)
EDP, I agree this was an illegitimate military action. And, illegal, and immoral. Further, the mess that is there now, I feel, is by design. The neocon agenda was to tear down the country simply because it was a cohesive, nationalistic, functioning society.
MFI: If you want to win the argument as to bringing troops home now, all I am suggesting is that we need to separate the “war” and “occupation” roles of the troops. The war is over, and we are now engaged in a brutal occupation.
[backs away from keyboard…]
I’ll be back there shortly mommybrain – fairly lenghty stay this time.
It’s not a question of winning the argument kemo. That’s an internal political matter for Americans. I amn’t an American and I keep well out of your domestic politics.
As a professional soldier however who has spent most of his adult as a peacekeeper in the Middle East I’m giving a professional opinion which is that the “war” and the “occupation” are the same thing.
Of all the country’s to eff with … they’ve never been successfully occupied never. The mongols couldn’t manage it, the seljuks couldn’t manage it the safavides couldn’t manage it the ottomans couldn’t manage it the british couldn’t manage it. What on earth made the US a country already hated like poison in Irak think they could bring it off.
You think the Afghans are warlike? Try the Irakis sometime very peaceful until attacked. Then they just keep on coming and to hell with the casualty levels. Keep on coming until the invader gives in. Even the ottomans only “ruled” the place by having local nobility as theit governors
What a lovely image – I’m glad for you and your family, Mommybrain.
(and – after the gathering is over – hope more rain comes for Ojai this spring…)
P J Evans @
108
As someone with years of experience as a machinist and a prototype machine builder, I’m just suggesting the usual tools for the job–a lathe makes a nice straight cut, especially in heavy-wall pipe, unlike a hacksaw (although a hacksaw would work, in a pinch).
If I were making EFPs, they’d be the Lexus of EFPs. :)
markfromireland @ 95
I vividly remember reading about Sadat’s death. I was crossing a street and reading and started sobbing (crying was not something I did a lot of in those days). I was crying that they hadn’t allowed ordinary Egyptians to come to the funeral due to the security for foreign dignitaries. And I was crying also because I knew that with Dayan and Sadat both dead it would be a very very long time before there would ever be peace in the Middle East. None of which negates what your saying about how the Egyptians felt about Sadat (which I didn’t know about).
Guys, I love you both, but….
My activist attorney friends teach that even idle chat about destructive devices may be misconstrued by law enforcement with axes to grind.
(irrespective of grinding device….)
Of course, the US Attorneys would never prosecute a crimnal case – much less seek imprisonment – for political reasons.
montag @ 112
kirk murphy @ 114
“If I were” is the operative phrase. If I were doing something like that here (which I’m not), I’d be in the arms export trade and the Pentagon would be giving me money to do it…. :)
montag – you and my (late) father. He rebuilt a compost grinder – took it completely apart and re-welded it, while it was still new. The floor in his basement shop was two layers of 3/4″ plywood, over two layers of 2×4s, screwed down at 6″ intervals, and each layer at right angles to the ones next to it. You could drop a marble on the floor and it wouldn’t roll away. (He even marked the studs by putting in small nails in the floor a little out from the wall.)Metal lathe, jeweller’s lathe, grinder, small milling machine, fume hood-and-sink, piped-in gas (for the Bunsen burner) and compressed air. The bench saw, drill press, and band saw were in Arthur (the outbuilding). (I have to admit, the flechettes in the toolbox were a bit startling, but we didn’t find those until after he died.)
That we are in that part of the world,for the reason we are is bad enough.That our troops have been used in this manner is a shame.We are faceing a payback that will be biblical
It could be argued that Bush has simply been more “sucessful” at his agenda in Iraq than the USA….He has been trying like hell to trash this country….he has succeded in Iraq.Just ask Cheney.
A deep analisis of how the saudi oil feilds are”watering out” is in two parts@ http://www.theoildrum.com. At some point in the next 2-4 years,or tommorow,the saudi’s production will drop 2mil barrels, or 25%…
the two articals ,for those who want to see the future1″water in the gas tank”and”the status of the northern Ghawar” both by sturt staniford…in the drumbeat section for the last few days,this site has shown the real reason for the war.And where we are headed
snuffy – I would certainly agree with your argument that our goal was chaos … which “justifies” the occupation, as we see playing out now. Permanent bases and control of oil …
siun,mark ,there was a rumor to the effect that the saudies are masking the size of the collapse of their oil fields by use of Iraqi oil…their useing “unused,unmetered”pipelines to ship to a saudi controlled port
P J Evans @ 116
I was never that, uh, obsessive about it. What I did was make stuff for very little money (the company I worked for pissed and moaned for years about having to buy me a cheap full-size milling machine, until they realized it had saved them several times the purchase cost). I had an old worn-out lathe, the cheap Korean Bridgeport mill copy, a chop saw and a TIG welder to work with, and I made some weird, weird stuff with just that. Eventually, because there was a need, I paid for a small rollforming machine and a box and pan brake, and that was about it. With that, I built machines that were true to 1/16th inch over thirty-foot lengths, cyclones, you name it, I built it. If they told me they were going into building rockets, I would have told them, “we’ll need more room, then.” :)
Siun @ 89
DING!
Shouldn’t future withdrawal legislation include liberal and humane provisions for the betrayed?
A very worthwhile music project. Lullabies sung by Western and Middle-Eastern/Central Asian women.
http://valley-entertainment.co…..Evil/#581/