Jane!

Rules of Engagement… What’s that?

fatuous militarist and flaming asshole Jacobs also thinks Scootie is innocent and the investigation was bogus. He has used his service in a very unseemly way and should be shunned.

frist rules of engagement applied to military doctrine, not just remote medical diagnoses …

lee5 @
4

frist rules of engagement applied to military doctrine, not just remote medical diagnoses …

I guess that does make him the Bill Frist of military analysts.

How do you suppose Chickenhawk Georgie would have handled himself if he’d been similarly apprehended while actually serving in a hostile zone instead of skipping out on his weekend warrior commitment?

yup … equal quality in the opinions …

Minnesotachuck @ 6

How do you suppose Chickenhawk Georgie would have handled himself if he’d been similarly apprehended while actually serving in a hostile zone instead of skipping out on his weekend warrior commitment?

Don’t be so cynical. I hear those paintball guns can really hurt.

*sniff sniff*

Why, yes, that is the sulfurous smell of the Devil’s own, Rupert Murdoch.

In a rational, adult world, if the navies of two nations who are not at war encounter each other in an area of disputed boundaries, the best possible outcome is that those taken on either side are quickly released, unharmed, and nothing is done to further inflame the situation. That’s essentially what happened.

In the wingnut world, every opportunity you have to start a war between two nations not at war should be exploited, and those who are put in this predicament should either die or kill the other side. That is not manly; it’s not smart; it’s not courageous. It’s simply insane. Jacobs is an idiot.

ps Thanks for this post. Since I first heard him on Ious –calling the Brits “French” I have wanted someone to say STFU. And msgop has let him repeat his hate speech unaswered for two days

OT …

WaPo: http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01935.html

“The World Bank rank and file were most upset by our recent column noting that Shaha Riza, linked romantically with bank President Paul Wolfowitz, got some curiously hefty raises upon being detailed to work at the State Department — but remaining on the bank’s payroll.”

all tied up together …

Without knowing how badly the Brits were out gunned and all of the really relevant circumstances, all I can say is live to fight another day seems to fit here.
You are of no use to any one dead.

Jane Hamsher @ 8
Don’t be so cynical. I hear those paintball guns can really hurt.

And now for the fettle report: Fine!

Maybe it is time to take General Electric and Microsoft to task for giving someone like that a platform.

I take exception to referring to the British military personnel as hostages. They were in uniform conducting military exercises when taken prisoner by Iran. Whether or not what Iran did was legitimate, the British were prisoners and not hostages.

Jane @ 8:

You just triggered a scary vision of Chickenhawk Georgie and Deadeye Dick in a paintball shootout.

One of the sailors stated that the Iranians had machine guns and RPG’s pointed at them. They said they quickly made the choice not to fight they probably would not win and because it would create an international incident. They did exactly the right thing.

Jacobs goes on to say that “no American” would have done what they did

Has Jack ever heard of the USS Pueblo?

I’m sorry this comment is a bit off topic. I just want to say a couple of times I’ve been over-powered the big realization is there is nothing you can do. For example I was held by one and battered by two others; it’s true I don’t know Karate, but thinking about this incident over the years I’ve never thought out what I could have done. Col. Jacobs remarks remind me of those who question the level of resistance by women who suffer sexual assault. It makes me sick the denial of the reality that in certain situations there’s nothing a person can do to protect themselves.

Bustednuckles @
13

Without knowing how badly the Brits were out gunned and all of the really relevant circumstances, all I can say is live to fight another day seems to fit here.
You are of no use to any one dead.

It is amazing that the incident went down without launching the next war. There was a not small amount of luck that soldiers on both sides didn’t get trigger happy.

lee5 @
12

OT …

WaPo: http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01935.html

“The World Bank rank and file were most upset by our recent column noting that Shaha Riza, linked romantically with bank President Paul Wolfowitz, got some curiously hefty raises upon being detailed to work at the State Department — but remaining on the bank’s payroll.”

all tied up together …

T-Rex here is my vote for your next late night post.

I feel I should add that referring to the British prisoners as “hostages” is right wing framing meant to demonize the Iranians and inflame outrage at what happened. The truth of what occurred has plenty of tension surrounding it without inserting gratuitous warmongering neocon rhetoric.

I’ve been listening to the BBC coverage of this from the outset. Yesterday I heard one of their military heads (forget the name) saying that their personnel behaved bravely and appropriately for the circumstances, and that reprimands due to their TV appearances were absolutely, completely out of the question. MSNBC can push their neocon rhetoric all they like, but fortunately cooler heads appear to be running the British military.

Pat_AlexVA @ 21

It is amazing that the incident went down without launching the next war. There was a not small amount of luck that soldiers on both sides didn’t get trigger happy.

esp’ly given that it sure seems like there were at least some folks in our gov’t hoping this would start a war …

I think big shot Jack Jacobs said he was a bugler and a lousy shot. Nothing wrong with buglers, but I don’t know what kind of combat experience he has to insult the actions of those facing down machine guns and RPGs.

Jack Jacobs is stupid, dishonorable, and disreputable. He is also a dick.

Well, for a start, as has been said already, people in rubber boats surrounded by bigger hard ones with nice big guns, would have to fancy a long swim in the dark if they open fire at such moments. Col Jacobs opinions become more or less garbage from that moment on, probably.

Despite the Royal Navy protestations about where the patrol was, the fact is that there are only sort-or-accepted borders for most of the that water, so insisting they were in the right place is difficult.

We now know that the Royal Navy patrols were as much out collecting information as they were “checking for smuggled cars”, so the lads and lass may easily have been busy dumping clandestine-action-supporting equipment rather than getting their life jackets on so they would be ready to start swimming after the shooting began.

Col Jacobs is, of course, sitting in a chair after years of service in an army with four hundred years of accumulated experience of being and Occupying, Colonizing force in unwelcome places. His colleagues in the US armed forces are displaying their continuing utter ineptitude as Occupation Forces every day. I hear that at last there is finally a little training that they do not shoot, that when searching a building the cupboards are not kicked open, that every single apparently aggressive action leads to further loss of Hearts and Minds. One of the biggest rules is not to exacerbate the situation. (You would not believe the rukles about when one can open fire when In Aid Of The Civil Power!)

So get it on, Colonel Jacobs…… your Preznint is doing REALLY well at pissing off the owners of 40% of the world’s oil — you know the 40% we get, not the Russians 60%, and your Preznint is pissing off the 1.3 billion pals of the owners of that 40%. There is something very wrong when the ibn Sa’uds, whom Roosevelt brought into the US aegis (gave them a lot of gold and a lot of Maria Theresa 1780s) are now pissing in our ears…… go for it Col Jacobs. BTW, Sir, just where did you serve in a colonial army or an occupation force?

Scarecrow @
10

In a rational, adult world, if the navies of two nations who are not at war encounter each other in an area of disputed boundaries, the best possible outcome is that those taken on either side are quickly released, unharmed, and nothing is done to further inflame the situation. That’s essentially what happened.

In the wingnut world, every opportunity you have to start a war between two nations not at war should be exploited, and those who are put in this predicament should either die or kill the other side. That is not manly; it’s not smart; it’s not courageous. It’s simply insane. Jacobs is an idiot.

Well there is that.

Facing life choices one can rise or fall to many spontaneous and uncontrolled events . Having the ability to recommend how others act is a bit indicative of a person who has had little opportunity to exercise those same qualities which are the mark of individuals who having faced those same altering events and the wisdom acquired from them .

Jane,
Perhaps we should go back and look at what the Captain and sailors on the USS Pueblo did when the North Koreans captured the ship and interned the crew. Ask Jacobs what he thinks of that behavior.

The Bushies can’t be happy about how easily the British soldiers caved to pressure. They weren’t even roughed up that much, and they did/said whatever they were told. This flies in the face of the torture policies of the Bush administration. I guess terrorists are as hard as nails and would never succumb no matter what their interrogators did.

LS 26, Take it back, because he served honorably in Nam.

Okay. I apologize.

Newton Leroy Gingrich was waxing poetic on C-Span about how he would simply destroy Iran’s one refining facility. Then when the Iranians are reduced to using ox carts to get around they’d realize that they were small and the US was big.

Under Neo-Con logic the world is a prison and it is either fuck or get fucked.

Just like all the hand wringing about “losing face” against Bin Laden….” “It will appear as weakness!”

No shit. Democracy appears to be weakness according to the Bin Laden philosophy, would Bush and the neo-cons recommend we end our democracy in order to appease that part of his beliefs. The answer is yes.

-GSD

He’s upset that they don’t refer to him as “Black Jack Patton” Jacobs.
He seems to be all over the map on the Iraq invasion/occupation. One day he thinks it’s good, next he thinks it’s bad. It must depend on how far away he is from Karl’s remote.

I guess Colonel Jack Jacobs thinks John McCain is a coward as well, since he spilled his guts while a POW. A real man would have knocked out his guards, taken their weapons and gone Rambo on the POW camp not only freeing himself but everyone else.

All I can say is I really wish Colonel Jack Jacobs had been there to show those Brits how to do it.

This is OT but I had to share because its so funny.
I have been wanting some new dishes, now I know where to get a collectors set.
I recommend watching this one.

H/T Alternate Brain.

http://alterx.blogspot.com/200…..alert.html

the peace time bugler is Don Imus
and you can bet he did not serve honorably

LS @ 26

I think big shot Jack Jacobs said he was a bugler and a lousy shot. Nothing wrong with buglers, but I don’t know what kind of combat experience he has to insult the actions of those facing down machine guns and RPGs.

Bugler, are you sure he didn’t play the Wurlitzer?

-GSD

I’d also guess that if many American servicemen and women have no idea what their mission in Iraq is, an even larger number of British soldiers have even less clue (being one country removed from shrub…). It has to be a pretty tall order to die for another country’s preemptive war of one-man’s glory.

Let’s leave aside the obvious initial observation that the Iranians treated their prisoners better than we treat ours, yet elicited confessions that were far more consistent and plausible than those we have been cranking out of the Guantnamo network.

If the British military personnel were seized in Iranian waters, they and their captors behaved pretty much as they should: Iran finds foreign military in its waters, so it brings them in to ask the obvious questions. Diplomacy ensues.

Both parties agree that the capture did not take place in international waters.

If the capture took place in disputed waters, then everything that followed is open to dispute (who’s right, who’s wrong) as well.

If the Iranians invaded Iraqi waters to capture British military personnel, international law still offers remedies short of war.

Maybe it’s a question of who had the cooler head. I’m so glad Col. Jacobs has no one to command.

Hostages????

The Iranians demanded nothing in return for their release.

“Hostage” is being used by Bush and the media to make an association with the actual hostages from the 1980s.

Oddly enough, Hizbollah took hostages in order to secure the release of members from Al-Dawa which attacked a US Embassy in 1983.

Yes, Al-Dawa, the same party as Al-Maliki.

GSD @ 39

LS @ 26

I think big shot Jack Jacobs said he was a bugler and a lousy shot. Nothing wrong with buglers, but I don’t know what kind of combat experience he has to insult the actions of those facing down machine guns and RPGs.

Bugler, are you sure he didn’t play the Wurlitzer?

-GSD

Actually, after I made the comment, I looked him up and now have my tail firmly between my legs :{

Do we know Jacobs served honorably…just because he got a bunch of medals –perhaps we need a group of servicemen who were with him or near by to give their opinons. I’ve always wanted to be an ambassador to Belgium (yum) I’d be happy to help raise the cash

Let me ask a dumb and tangential question:

Here is the case of Britain’s finest saying that they were held in isolation and subjected to psych ops for 2 weeks and the understandable effect on them.

What does this say about the hostages in Gitmo after 5 years ?

puppethead @
16

I take exception to referring to the British military personnel as hostages. They were in uniform conducting military exercises when taken prisoner by Iran. Whether or not what Iran did was legitimate, the British were prisoners and not hostages.

Obstensibly, they were conducting inspections under the UN Iran sanctions regime, not engaged in military action. However, Democracy Now reported this morning that even before they had been seized in disputed waters by the Iranians, the commanding officer of HMS Cornwall, their ship, admitted to Sky News that parts of their duties involved gathering intelligence on the Iranians. Sky News sensibly sat on the report until after the soldiers were released.

Col. Jacobs is a genuine American hero, but for him to have only made Colonel in 20 years after winning the Medal of Honor shows he was disregarded or passed up for one reason or another along the way.

The obvious solution to all this is to have a radio-controlled cyanide dental implant put into all American and British military personnel before they go to combat zones. That way, if the soldiers/sailors/airmen/marines refuse to die one way or another when caught, Dick Cheney can push their personal delete button. On second thought, maybe we shouldn’t let people like Jacobs or Cheney get any new ideas.

puppethead @
16

I take exception to referring to the British military personnel as hostages. They were in uniform conducting military exercises when taken prisoner by Iran. Whether or not what Iran did was legitimate, the British were prisoners and not hostages.

Fair point, I’ll change.

I think the concerted media smear on Pelosi came at the behest of the White House and has been exacerbated by frustration at having this Iran provocation fizzle — there was also some mention that Pelosi may have had something to do with the release itself (no links provided). I think there is something impromptu and reckless about this anti-Pelosi campaign, notwithstanding how concerted it is. Evidence for this is in some of the Republicans who were themselves in Syria defended Pelosi tpm link.

Note Cheney’s strident emergence from the crypt to rebuke her and rant about Iraq-Al Quaeda.

http://www.pbs.org/weta/americ…..acobs.html

Isn’t shrub still holding 5 iranian diplomats incommunicado somewhere?

Jacobs not only was a good infantryman in his time, he was a brave and hard one, and got a M of Honor for it. He has then made a pot of money so he has been the American Dream. He’s still a complete idiot and NBC deserves such a military analyst.

Jane you hit it square on the head:

“So there you have it. Because they didn’t Rambo-out, grip a knife between their teeth, jump the gunwales and fight to the death so George Bush could escalate his war with Iran, the British soldiers are a big bunch of girls”.

Notice that these same “military experts” were not claiming the same thing about American soldiers taken captive during the beginning of the Iraq war. It was all about escalating the conflict with Iran.

katherine graham cracker @ 44

Do we know Jacobs served honorably…just because he got a bunch of medals –perhaps we need a group of servicemen who were with him or near by to give their opinons. I’ve always wanted to be an ambassador to Belgium (yum) I’d be happy to help raise the cash

We know how easy it is to get a chest full of metals…….The Shitboaters told us the soldiers just apply for their own with fraudulent papers.

-GSD

clem: Iranians treated their prisoners

“prisoners”

That is exactly what the Brits were.

They were not hostages.

There is a huge difference between prisoners and hostages.

Again, by using “hostage” the Bush admin is trying to re-kindle the Iranian hostage crisis from the 1980s.

Hostage is wrong!!

Fox has given up on Tony Blair and the war! Notice how they are trying to attack their OWN troops for not being brave, sorry SUICIDAL. Yesterday I read that right after the troops came back Fox News aired a piece which claimed that the troops WERE SPIES were and they were SPYING on IRAN. Despite Tony Blair saying that they were not spies and they were not in Iranian waters, with friends like these Tony and after all you did to help Fox expand into England YOU’VE BEEN PLAYED! I wonder how long until Fox DOES THE SAME TO BUSHie? The Fox network seems awful anxious to hold a Democratic Presidential debate, of course after the way Tony just got played only a fool would go along with it.

I served w/Jack Jacobs….

His scurrilous denigration of a fellow soldier is nothing new…more than once I toyed with the thought of fragging his sorry ass.

Larry

GSD @
54

“The Shitboaters”
-GSD

Ya mean our new honorable recess-appointed US ambassador to Belgium?

CNN – Gonzo’s job hanging by a thread…

brendan @ 49

I think the concerted media smear on Pelosi came at the behest of the White House and has been exacerbated by frustration at having this Iran provocation fizzle — there was also some mention that Pelosi may have had something to do with the release itself (no links provided). I think there is something impromptu and reckless about this anti-Pelosi campaign, notwithstanding how concerted it is. Evidence for this is in some of the Republicans who were themselves in Syria defended Pelosi tpm.

Note Cheney’s strident emergence from the crypt to rebuke her and rant about Iraq-Al Quaeda.

What do you think of the possibility, Brendan the Idiots are throwing out chaff ‘cos they really are going to have a`crack at Iran?

BTW — since you are here, did you lunch with the Unfragrant and if so tell all…….

Minnesotachuck @
6

How do you suppose Chickenhawk Georgie would have handled himself if he’d been similarly apprehended while actually serving in a hostile zone instead of skipping out on his weekend warrior commitment?

I think we should do a test.

Jacobs was only too happy to agree with the shitboaters

Damn fruity British fops ruined our easy path to war! Damn them!

-General Bolton and Field Marshall Kristol

Jacobs was a bugler alright – an ass bugler. Now he’s turned pro. To my British friends – this douchebag does NOT represent thinking Americans. Someone needs to put him on a raft and set him adrift in Iraqnian waters, just to see how fast he starts crying. Scum.

Anything will be discussed or scorned by the likes of folks like this colonel as long as it enables a continued failure to look in the mirror.
If our Joint COS are anything like this Colonel we are quite likely doomed for conflict with the Iranians and lord knows what else.

puppethead – would detainees or possible tresspassers better describe the Brits? (not hostage or prisoner)

I heard Jacobs was a coward and the whole heroism story was made up at the Pentagon propaganda office.

I heard Jacobs was a slacker who refused tough duty in favor of playing poker and getting drunk.

I heard he was a loser and a fake. That’s what I heard.

Anyone else have broken margins?

smapdi @
2

Rules of Engagement… What’s that?

Seconded!

Busted.

-GSD

puppethead @
16

I take exception to referring to the British military personnel as hostages. They were in uniform conducting military exercises when taken prisoner by Iran. Whether or not what Iran did was legitimate, the British were prisoners and not hostages.

Ding!

Yep, Busted, me too.

HotFlash @
61

I think we should do a test.

Unfortunately, no self respecting post-Korean-war member of the shrub family would ever put himself or herself into that position, so we’ll never know. Fighting for American is SOOOOO beneath them now. Divine right of kings and all that…

Bustednuckles @
66

Anyone else have broken margins?

I tried a new format — graphic with left alignment. Is it screwing with anyone’s browser?

CNN: Malveaux, “Is Bush’s patience wearing thin?”
…Backchannels say, momentum has slowed…

Is WH involved in prep for testimony?

“They don’t want to look involved and don’t want to be tied by what he’s going to say…”

He is toast.

LS @ 33

LS 26, Take it back, because he served honorably in Nam.

Okay. I apologize.

Serving honorably in Nam or elsewhere does not excuse or give him writ to say what he did.

Larry

mine’s fine, using Mozilla Firefox.

I watched Jacobs making his comments this morning after the press conference, and it turned my stomach. This is a military man for Chrissake! Fight to the death against someone tou’re not at war with? The man is despicable.

Whoa. My beautiful post — where did it go?

Slothrop @
66

I heard Jacobs was a coward and the whole heroism story was made up at the Pentagon propaganda office.

I heard Jacobs was a slacker who refused tough duty in favor of playing poker and getting drunk.

I heard he was a loser and a fake. That’s what I heard.

links?

yes Jane..

Larry 74, I agree Larry, I just don’t think it is my place to be the judge of that without knowing the background info.

Jane Hamsher @ 73

Bustednuckles @
66

Anyone else have broken margins?

I tried a new format — graphic with left alignment. Is it screwing with anyone’s browser?

yes

Clarification: That Pelosi was serving as an emissary from the Israelis was enough to get the smear going from Bush/Cheney. But the release of the sailors didn’t help.

Looks like the Clusterfuck’s clusterfucks know no end.

A Pakistani cleric is setting up a Taliban style vice campaign and have threatened a suicide bombing spree if Musharraff tries to stop it.

(Snip)

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan – In a bold challenge to the government, a firebrand cleric said Friday he had formed an Islamic court to enforce a Taliban-style vice campaign in the Pakistani capital, threatening suicide attacks if authorities try to stop him.

Let’s see, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia…..now Pakistan.

-GSD

Mods – the margin on this posting is way wide. Formatting?

And a minor typo:

Colonel Jack Jacobs — has been on the air relentlessly calling them “stupid,” “disreputable” and “dispicable.”

dispicable => despicable

Broken margins here too. Firefox.

Nevermind the margin comment. It’s OK on refresh.

Edward Teller #79:

I think “Slothrop” is jokingly reminding us of the Swift Boaters.

Jane @ 72:

It’s screwing up my Firefox 2.0.0.3 browser, too.

No links, Mr. Teller. I was Swift boating the guy.

WTF are you all talking about?
It’s not like they folded under questioning. They just said, “yes, we were where the GPS indicated”.
Several of them joked and laughed during the ordeal?
h/t to them.
Maybe, as in the US, not all the people swallow the bs of their leaders.

After I centered it I can read it fine now.

Refresh at top of post fixed it.

As to Jacobs. The Republican Revolution is getting near their Terror phase and have begun to consume their own.

Matthew Dowd was recently set upon by the concren trolls on the right……anyone who isn’t on board will be feasted upon.

Enjoy the heartburn assholes.

-GSD

Hostages Released for Al-Dawa

Freeing the al-Dawa prisoners in Kuwait was one of the main objectives of a string of kidnappings and bombings perpetrated by Hezbollah over the next several years. (One of the Kuwait 17, Mustafa Badreddin, is a relative and associate of Hezbollah leader Imad Mugniyah.

The Kuwait 17 then played a role in the Iran-Contra scandal: The principals of Iran-Contra offered to sway Kuwait to release the Kuwait 17 as one of several incentives to free American hostages in Lebanon. However, when President Reagan learned of this offer, he allegedly responded “like he had been kicked in the belly.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Dawa_Party

Alice @
15

Maybe it is time to take General Electric and Microsoft to task for giving someone like that a platform.

Heh

pc based — margins went wide, but after refresh, they went back to normal.

Great post! I haven’t watched MSNBC, so I haven’t seen the Colonel’s secret recipe for propaganda.

(I’m using the newest IE and this thread is bigger than the margins of my screen).

So, I’ve been out at church, and I just turned on CNN and Cafferty. His quesiton of the hour:

What condition would the REpublican presidential field need to be in for the party to consider Dick Cheney for President?

I can’t even think of an answer. I cannot imagine any scenario possible where anything but the tiniest minority within the GOP would want him to run.

(so, can we start an underground “Draft Cheney” as a Third Party candidate movement? Hehehee!)

It’s not a problem for me on Firefox. The height of each individual comment on the screen is less, because of the wider margin. IMVHD, that’s a good thing. I can still see everything I need to see, such as the comment number.

LS @
26

I think big shot Jack Jacobs said he was a bugler and a lousy shot. Nothing wrong with buglers, but I don’t know what kind of combat experience he has to insult the actions of those facing down machine guns and RPGs.

That’s Imus the bugler. Say what you want, and I agree on the point of this thread, they don’t hand out the Medal of Honor unless it is earned and he earned it.

Interesting update to the whole Pelosi smear:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c…..post_2.php

Fred Hiatt has been showing his neocon cards since 2006. It indicates a weakened position.

Personally, I rarely agree with Jacobs’ opinions and find the vitriolic force of his comments on this issue reprehensible and over the top. That seems to be the general and well reasoned opinion here at FDL and for good cause. that should not serve as a basis to demean the man’s service however. Jacobs is a Medal of Honor recipient, as well as three bronze stars, two silver stars and two purple hearts. He is also, according to a friend of mine who attended both, an instructor at West Point and the National War College. I am about as far removed from being a military type of person as can be, but by the same token, we should not demean the service of those who were; especially a guy with the record Jacobs has. His opinions are more than fair game and deserve to be attacked; no reason to go further.

Colonel “Batshit Crazy” Jack Jacobs is a disgrace to the country and our military and a waste of skin.

brendan @
83

Clarification: That Pelosi was serving as an emissary from the Israelis was enough to get the smear going from Bush/Cheney. But the release of the sailors didn’t help.

Your comment makes no sense. Pelosi might have offered to convey information from one government to another at multiple stops on her trip. Although her Knesset speech was public, most of her meetings were private. There is no evidence I’ve seen tying anything she did to the release of the seized UK soldiers. And why would the Bushistas smear a national level American politician for acting on behalf of the Israeli government. It isn’t as if it hasn’t happened now and again in the past.

bmaz @ 102

Personally, I rarely agree with Jacobs’ opinions and find the vitriolic force of his comments on this issue reprehensible and over the top. That seems to be the general and well reasoned opinion here at FDL and for good cause. that should not serve as a basis to demean the man’s service however. Jacobs is a Medal of Honor recipient, as well as three bronze stars, two silver stars and two purple hearts. He is also, according to a friend of mine who attended both, an instructor at West Point and the National War College. I am about as far removed from being a military type of person as can be, but by the same token, we should not demean the service of those who were; especially a guy with the record Jacobs has. His opinions are more than fair game and deserve to be attacked; no reason to go further.

Fuckin A right.

bmaz @ 102

Personally, I rarely agree with Jacobs’ opinions and find the vitriolic force of his comments on this issue reprehensible and over the top. That seems to be the general and well reasoned opinion here at FDL and for good cause. that should not serve as a basis to demean the man’s service however. Jacobs is a Medal of Honor recipient, as well as three bronze stars, two silver stars and two purple hearts. He is also, according to a friend of mine who attended both, an instructor at West Point and the National War College. I am about as far removed from being a military type of person as can be, but by the same token, we should not demean the service of those who were; especially a guy with the record Jacobs has. His opinions are more than fair game and deserve to be attacked; no reason to go further.

But it’s okay to attack John Kerry.

Ed*ard Teller @ 79

Slothrop @
66

I heard Jacobs was a coward and the whole heroism story was made up at the Pentagon propaganda office.

I heard Jacobs was a slacker who refused tough duty in favor of playing poker and getting drunk.

I heard he was a loser and a fake. That’s what I heard.

links?

Links We don’t need no stinkin links swiftboaters deserve to be treated the same way they treated Kerry! Joking on a blog is one thing printing books and newsarticles spreading lies before an election and never being called on it. AHHRG! if anything we should stop the jokes they don’t go far enough! We should leave the lies to swift boaters and just call this jerk an armchair general who forgot what its like to be a solder in combat. This Joke has forgotten!

OT but good info on USA Gate: Here

Paul Krugman noted a couple of weeks ago, for example, that Chris Christie, the former Bush “Pioneer” who is now the U.S. attorney for New Jersey, issued subpoenas as part of an investigation against Sen. Bob Menendez (D) shortly before last year’s election.

* In New Hampshire, Democrats want Congress to investigate whether prosecution of a Republican phone-jamming scheme on Election Day 2002 was intentionally delayed until after the presidential election two years later.

* Did the U.S. Attorney’s office in Pennsylvania intentionally target Bob Casey allies to undermine his Senate campaign against Rick Santorum?

* Why was the career U.S. Attorney in Guam removed in 2002 after he started investigating disgraced GOP lobbyist Jack Abramoff?

* Why has Western Pennsylvania’s U.S. attorney, Mary Beth Buchanan, spent a disproportionate amount of her time launching public-corruption investigations against Democrats, while overlooking Republicans?

* In July 2005, the U.S. Attorney in Denver decided not to pursue a matter in which bouncers at a Bush event impersonated Secret Service agents to throw out three law-abiding ticket-holders because of their bumper sticker (the Denver Three controversy). Did politics dictate the decision?

Jim @ 103

Colonel “Batshit Crazy” Jack Jacobs is a disgrace to the country and our military and a waste of skin.

And he’d agree that even stupid ass statements like this should be protected.

But it’s okay to attack John Kerry.

So, because vitriolic ass hole right-wingers do it then we should?

Raven, did you call into Washington Journal? Just asking.

Jacobs piled on Kerry as far as I am concerned everything about him including his boy scout badges are fair game

Ed*ard Teller @ 104

brendan @
83

Clarification: That Pelosi was serving as an emissary from the Israelis was enough to get the smear going from Bush/Cheney. But the release of the sailors didn’t help.

Your comment makes no sense. Pelosi might have offered to convey information from one government to another at multiple stops on her trip. Although her Knesset speech was public, most of her meetings were private. There is no evidence I’ve seen tying anything she did to the release of the seized UK soldiers. And why would the Bushistas smear a national level American politician for acting on behalf of the Israeli government. It isn’t as if it hasn’t happened now and again in the past.

Why would they smear a Democrat for “acting on behalf of the Israeli government”? Keep up with the news. There have been stories of late how the White House is trying to veto any peace overtures from Israel to Syria. Doesn’t that make sense to you, especially in light of Cheney’s very personal vitriol?

As for the release of the sailors, I just noted the timing, and I recollect someone (maybe TAPPED or Washington Monthly) speculating about this.

LS @ 110

Raven, did you call into Washington Journal? Just asking.

If you have something to say, say it.

OT

John McCain, direct quote:

“I disagree with what the majority of the American people want.”

Use it, spread it, wipe up the steaming remnants of McCain’s aspirations with it.

As an English woman living in the USA, I have only complete and utter respect and gratitude for those service-man and woman. They handled the whole situation professionally and intelligently.
They were very aware of the firestorm just waiting for a spark/push to explode, yet they maintained composure whilst not knowing if they would ever make it home.
Any-one who dares doubt their courage has no understanding of TRUE COURAGE.

raven — I agree with your point; the post is not about the man’s own service, which was honorable; it’s about the wisdom of his comments wrt to the British soldiers.

brendan @
83

Clarification: That Pelosi was serving as an emissary from the Israelis was enough to get the smear going from Bush/Cheney. But the release of the sailors didn’t help.

Olmert — Rightist, of course, is denying point blank that Pelosi was carrying their water. Perhaps, since Olmert may be gone soon, she was carrying for the Labour Party, hein?

They do not dare, yet, off er to give back the golan and the West Bank, surely.

raven @ 113

LS @ 110

Raven, did you call into Washington Journal? Just asking.

If you have something to say, say it.

I heard a caller on Washington Journal – an excellent call, and for some reason what the person said reminded me of some posts a few days back, that’s all. It was all good. I’m not sure why I thought of you exactly. Like I said, it was a great call. I’m not trying to get personal.

The question through all of the pained pronouncements from Britain is ‘Whose purposes do the breast-beating laments serve?’ Methinks the fish from England is bad, the chips limp, the paper soiled. Might we do well to reject being Union-Jack-ed?

Alice @
15

Maybe it is time to take General Electric and Microsoft to task for giving someone like that a platform.

Why do they hate America’s closest ally?

Why do they hate the troops?

IrishJim @ 108: great questions. On Thom Hartmann’s show this afternoon (on AAR), he was encouraging all Americans who have questions they want answered on the US Atty scandal to call their representatives in Congress and their Senators, providing them with the questions you want answered. I think it’s a good idea.

We’ve learned a lot about why some US Attorneys were dismissed. What we also don’t know is why some were labeled “Loyal Bushies”. Your info provides some info on one of Bush’s pets. We should get to the bottom of what actions other USAs have taken in response to political favors or political pressure.

Slothrop@106 – No it was NOT ok to attack John Kerry. Once you succumb to the lowest common denominator of the right wing, as you appear to advocate, then you are no better.

landofthefree @ 98

Great post! I haven’t watched MSNBC, so I haven’t seen the Colonel’s secret recipe for propaganda.

(I’m using the newest IE and this thread is bigger than the margins of my screen).

So, I’ve been out at church, and I just turned on CNN and Cafferty. His quesiton of the hour:

What condition would the REpublican presidential field need to be in for the party to consider Dick Cheney for President?

I can’t even think of an answer. I cannot imagine any scenario possible where anything but the tiniest minority within the GOP would want him to run.

(so, can we start an underground “Draft Cheney” as a Third Party candidate movement? Hehehee!)

Keep watching Cafferty. If he reads an email from richard in tulsa you’ll have tour answer.

FWIW: I was in London during this whole ordeal and in the news that I did see (I was on vacation) I didn’t witness any of the sort of George C. Scott excitement this inspired over here.

It’s like the American establishment is bummed this didn’t happen to us so we could unleash another war. Not unlike Ann Coulter bitching about the fact that she isn’t enough of a victim win an argument without having to have a point.

Late to the thread, but have to chime in .. I actually spent some time boarding smugglers or potential smugglers up in the NAG (Northern Arabian Gulf). The real point here was nailed succinctly@2. ROE. What were the Brits Rules of Engagement when it came to this? Believe me, they had some and they were rehearsed and they used ‘em.

I honor Col. “Black Jack” Jacobs service and the circumstances of his MoH (read at Wiki) show that he, as a young man, demonstrated remarkable physical courage … but he needs to sit down and STFU!

All Col. Jacobs statements show now is that he is a deeply, deeply reprehensible individual. To lob potshots at folks in the field without knowing either the circumstances or their operating orders (ROE included) exhibits a deep, deep cowardice.

In the military they discuss physical and moral courage. The latter is considered much more important and is in much shorter supply than the former. While Jacobs may have shown physical courage in his youth, by jumping on the bandwagon with his chickenhawk friends and attacking these sailors and marines he is showing an utter lack of moral courage now.

He and MSNBC should be ashamed (course you have to able to experience shame …..).

Why do I keep hitting t for y?

LS @ 118

raven @ 113

LS @ 110

Raven, did you call into Washington Journal? Just asking.

If you have something to say, say it.

I heard a caller on Washington Journal – an excellent call, and for some reason what the person said reminded me of some posts a few days back, that’s all. It was all good. I’m not sure why I thought of you exactly. Like I said, it was a great call. I’m not trying to get personal.

Thanks, sorry if I was too quick. I did post some info right when they were released about some of the bullshit that was coming down the pike by the wingnuts. I also mentioned how they railroaded Commander Bucher of the Pueblo with the same kind of crap.

Edward Teller at #104:

For more context on this, Israel’s lost war against Hezbollah last summer (though they did win their war on the Lebanese people’s infrastructure) came amid much goading from the Bush administration, once again probably having to do with a prospective war on Iran.

As a frequent critic of the Israeli lobby, I often forget that the interference in foreign policy goes both ways and that there is a neoconservative backwash of corruption and ineptitude damaging to Israel, too.

raven @
100

LS @
26

I think big shot Jack Jacobs said he was a bugler and a lousy shot. Nothing wrong with buglers, but I don’t know what kind of combat experience he has to insult the actions of those facing down machine guns and RPGs.

That’s Imus the bugler. Say what you want, and I agree on the point of this thread, they don’t hand out the Medal of Honor unless it is earned and he earned it.

But Raven, he knows absolutely nothing about the matter in hand, yet is prepared to pontificate. This actually, is the sort of thing front line loonies are`wont to do. I met only four holders of our big Medal the Victoria Cross, and three of them were dumb as a stump.

1.) re margins. They’re OK now.

2.) Re Jack Jacobs; wiki says

Although bleeding from severe head wounds, then 1st Lt. Jacobs took command, withdrew the unit to safety, and returned again and again under intense fire to rescue the wounded and perform life-saving first aid. He saved the lives of a U.S. advisor and 13 allied soldiers.

Jacobs served on the faculty of the United States Military Academy at West Point and the National War College in Washington, D.C. After retirement, he founded and was chief operating officer of Auto Finance Group. As a managing director of Bankers Trust Co., he led Global Investment Management to $2.2 billion in assets and later co-founded a similar business for Lehman Brothers

No mention of when he retired.

I don’t know why it is so shocking to me that anyone in this country would rather the brits had come home in a box rather than alive. The republic party is really losing it.

Reading Jacobs’ ravings and Cheney’s rantings about the al Queda-Iraq connection just begs the question, why? Why do they spew this shit at all?

I mean, I understand hardball smashmouth politics and all but do they really think that they’re getting through to the 70% of the country who thinks the guys are whackos? Just who the fuck are they talking to?

I’ll hang up now and take my answer off-air.

Jacobs goes on to say that “no American” would have done what they did . . .

Hello? The few Americans who claim to support this war won’t even make the gesture of enlisting, let alone the gesture of being killed.

But Raven, he knows absolutely nothing about the matter in hand, yet is prepared to pontificate. This actually, is the sort of thing front line loonies are`wont to do. I met only four holders of our big Medal the Victoria Cross, and three of them were dumb as a stump.

That’s what really bothers me, Jacobs is not stupid. I was totally blown away when he started that diatribe.

re the comments above implying that since Col. Jacobs has slimed others it is perfectly OK to slime him similarly, – whatever. maybe we could get billo and geraldo over here to teach us better on how to do it. I love snark, but just saying he was a coward ’cause you heard it from somebody who heard it from somebody is how Drudge built his empire. more like a swamp than a lake, IMHO…

Where have I heard words like Jacobs?

Half a league, half a league,
Half a league onward. . .

Oh yes, from Alfred, Lord Tennyson. Stanza two seems most appropriate for Col. Jacobs:

“Forward, the Light Brigade!”
Was there a man dismayed?
Not though the soldier knew
Someone had blundered.
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die.
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

I think perhaps the British military is aware of its own history, thank you very much.

as a British citizen who has lost 140 of your fellow countrymen to George Bush’s war of ego

forgive me for being this naiive;

all the british have lost is 140 soldiers compared to our thousands?

I know every life is priceless, but really, we should bang the drum about how the uk is NOT supporting this president and his war

My cubie is p*ssed because the Brits apparently gave the Iranians more than just name, rank, and serial. He thinks they should have held off talking until physical methods were used.

Normally my cubie is sane.

raven @ 134

That’s what really bothers me, Jacobs is not stupid. I was totally blown away when he started that diatribe.

You know what? I honestly don’t give a tenth of a damn whether Jacobs is stupid or not. I don’t give a hoot whether he was awarded a Medal of Honor, and I couldn’t care less whether he served honorably, dishonorably, or not at all. His remarks on MSNBC are vile, despicable, and offensive to any human being with two neurons and a lick of decency. Period. End quote.

Rob @ 126

Well said.

Dover Bitch @ 124

FWIW: I was in London during this whole ordeal and in the news that I did see (I was on vacation) I didn’t witness any of the sort of George C. Scott excitement this inspired over here.

It’s like the American establishment is bummed this didn’t happen to us so we could unleash another war. Not unlike Ann Coulter bitching about the fact that she isn’t enough of a victim win an argument without having to have a point.

That is a gem of a post. That last para deserves to be stitched into a sampler.

Peterr @ 137

Where have I heard words like Jacobs?

Half a league, half a league,
Half a league onward. . .

Oh yes, from Alfred, Lord Tennyson. Stanza two seems most appropriate for Col. Jacobs:

“Forward, the Light Brigade!”
Was there a man dismayed?
Not though the soldier knew
Someone had blundered.
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die.
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

I think perhaps the British military is aware of its own history, thank you very much.

But not ‘military’ on this occasion Peterr, but the navy and Marines who with us are part of the navy. ‘Military’ is “of or pertaining to the ARMY” only. I get riled whenever i here the word incorrectly used, as one does, every day, here in the US.

perris @ 138

as a British citizen who has lost 140 of your fellow countrymen to George Bush’s war of ego

forgive me for being this naiive;

all the british have lost is 140 soldiers compared to our thousands?

I know every life is priceless, but really, we should bang the drum about how the uk is NOT supporting this president and his war

I read somewhere a while ago that more brits have committed suicide after they returned from the war than were killed fighting the war.

Don’t know if anybody has mentioned this, Jane, but I believe that all the captured Brits were sailors, not soldiers. You might want to edit your first sentence.

Ed*ard Teller @ 135

re the comments above implying that since Col. Jacobs has slimed others it is perfectly OK to slime him similarly, – whatever. maybe we could get billo and geraldo over here to teach us better on how to do it. I love snark, but just saying he was a coward ’cause you heard it from somebody who heard it from somebody is how Drudge built his empire. more like a swamp than a lake, IMHO…

Bravo.

John Sundman @ 144

Don’t know if anybody has mentioned this, Jane, but I believe that all the captured Brits were sailors, not soldiers. You might want to edit your first sentence.

Sailors and Marines

It seems the worse things go in Iraq, the louder the noise coming out of our militarized version of the Wurlitzer gets.
Cheney is still flogging the dead horse about Saddam and Al Queada being in bed together even though it has been thoroughly debunked.
Just who do they have the Wurlitzer pointed at?
Even the average Joe should know by now that is a dead issue, yet Cheney insists on trolling it through the MSM.

BTW, Froomkin knocks on this today.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01116.html

John @145. They are actually sailors and marines. To be accurate would want to characterize them as such. (And believe me those involved …. notice the difference.)

perris @ 138

1. Proportionately to the numbers in theatre?

2. The British know how to be Occupying Forces, the US does not. The British losses are therefore going to be much smaller in proportion to the total numbers in the field.

Most of us do not know why we are there, either, except that Bliar had the same sort of neocon/PNAC types as his closest advisors. In all logic Britain should have stood by and watched the US lose its influence and power, as Eisenhower and Dulles did their best to demolish Britain’s historic influence in the middle East.

Raven@135 – That is exactly how I felt about Jacobs’ diatribe – blown away and repulsed. As I said earlier, I have a friend who studied under him at the Academy and we have discussed him on previous occasions when I was up in arms over something Jacobs said. The word I was given is that Jacobs is brilliant and that his war record was no joke. He also does not appear to be a total toadie, he often says things quite nasty about the Bush Administration and it’s war. More often, however, he says things like he has here that just drive me up a wall; but I just cannot see that as a basis for demeaning his service.

but just saying he was a coward ’cause you heard it from somebody who heard it from somebody is how Drudge built his empire. more like a swamp than a lake, IMHO…

let me know when the playing field is level

It’s hard to believe that, after all this country has been through and all the progress we’ve made as a culture, John Fucking Rambo has become the working definition of how a lot of supposedly intelligent people think our troops (and the Brits as well, apparently) are supposed to act when the shit comes down.

I’m so glad you posted this. I saw this idiot on MSNBC early yesterday morning and I was so mad steam must have been coming out of my ears. He was absolutely, ncredibly …..well, I can’t even think of a word to describe how obnoxious and despicable this guy was, and of course the ‘host’ was going right along with it. When he started talking about the suits that looked like ’spun plastic’ and how he would have demanded his uniform back, I just had to turn off the TV before I threw something at it.

maunga @ 143

But not ‘military’ on this occasion Peterr, but the navy and Marines who with us are part of the navy. ‘Military’ is “of or pertaining to the ARMY” only. I get riled whenever i here the word incorrectly used, as one does, every day, here in the US.

Where did you come by the “military=army only” usage? I’ve always heard “military” as the counterpart to “civilian” – that is, it is the collective term for all the uniformed services, as in “The Uniform Code of Military Justice” which applies to all branches.

The U. S. was not at war with North Korea. Pueblo crew members were incredulous and shocked that we had been attacked and expected the U. S. to attempt to terminate this act of piracy as it happened, and later to retaliate. That the U. S. did neither then, nor retaliated when the EC-121 was shot down with the loss of 34 lives in April 15, 1969 reflects our governments reticence to wage another war. Did not the actions of the government and Pueblo’s crew demonstrate the mood of the country at that time?

Jane, as always a great post. However, if I may, I need to take issue with a couple of terms you used. It’s been one of my pet peeves for the last 30 years.

quote: “the British soldiers are a big bunch of girls.”

Now, I know you were paraphrasing for these ignorant “Rambo” types, but the term “girls” in this sentence replaces the word “cowards”.

By using the term “girls” you perpetuate the myth that girls or women are cowards. That it is OK to accept “girls” as an appropriate “insult” from one man to another, as if women are lesser.

Your use of “sissies” causes the same consternation. Maybe adolescent would have conveyed the same meaning with out unnecessarily actually using those terms yourself, intended as an insult.

Excuse the lecture, I’m just saying, think about it.

GSD @
94

As to Jacobs. The Republican Revolution is getting near their Terror phase and have begun to consume their own.

Oh, please, please. If there is a God, I implore most piously that this come to pass. And be televised.

P J Evans @ 138

My cubie is p*ssed because the Brits apparently gave the Iranians more than just name, rank, and serial. He thinks they should have held off talking until physical methods were used.

Normally my cubie is sane.

British procedure is different from US military/naval. I don’t know details but for instance, US soldiers are required to attempt to escape if captured, British solders are not, or at least that’s how it was during WWII. A close friend of my Dad’s was on dirt-hiding detail in tThe Great Escape, it was the US prisioners who kept trying to escape, the British SOP was to stay interned until end of hostilities, so the helped in the efforts but did not try to escape. A real military type could probably get more specific here, but my point is that (we) Americans tend to think that the whole world is, or should be, just.like.us. And it’s not.

Is there any chance a firedog asset near or in Wisconsin (hint, hint, ew…?) can interview Georgia Thompson about how she was fucking framed?

bmaz @ 151

Raven@135 – That is exactly how I felt about Jacobs’ diatribe – blown away and repulsed. As I said earlier, I have a friend who studied under him at the Academy and we have discussed him on previous occasions when I was up in arms over something Jacobs said. The word I was given is that Jacobs is brilliant and that his war record was no joke. He also does not appear to be a total toadie, he often says things quite nasty about the Bush Administration and it’s war. More often, however, he says things like he has here that just drive me up a wall; but I just cannot see that as a basis for demeaning his service.

Well, this line of thinking isn’t going over to well here on the lake. FIDO, fuck it and drive on for those of you who weren’t in the military!

Colonel Jacobs is dishonoring his Medal of Honor, while honoring his later commitments to Bankers Trust and Lehman Brothers, for whom Mr. Bush’s policies have been manna from heaven.

Colonel Jacob won his many medals in Viet Nam, fighting a declared enemy. These British personnel were taken custody by the forces of a country they were not at war with, in waters whose boundaries are in dispute.

Their police mission of inspecting commercial shipping looking for contraband, and their terms of engagement, would almost certainly have permitted the use of deadly force only when they thought their own lives were in danger – and where resistance might have been effective. They were not the Secret Service fighting Le Chiffre or defending the ranch in Crawford, Texas.

The British personnel were surrounded by six Iranian patrol boats, armed with small artillery and large machine guns. Armed resistance would likely have been suicide, which would have provoked possibly large-scale retaliation. Surely, no responsible politician or armchair Colonel Blimp wanted another Gulf of Tonkin incident. That would have been in no one’s interest except someone who wanted a pretext to attack Iran.

Under the circumstances, these Marines and naval personnel acted rationally, as did the British govt in negotiating their release. Outside of BushWorld, that’s called diplomacy.

By the way, the Brits were in inflatable boats, which means they operated from a nearby support ship and had helicopter surveillance. How were they surprised by six Iranian patrol boats purportedly operating in foreign, Iraqi waters in commercial shipping lanes?

Only in a John Le Carre novel would they have been dangled as bait, in hopes that a lethal firefight would justify drastic retaliation.

Bustednuckles @ 148

Cheney is still flogging the dead horse about Saddam and Al Queada being in bed together even though it has been thoroughly debunked.

How is it that Republics continue to allow Cheney to do this? Each time they remain silent it damages them a little more because he apparently speaks for them.

From Wiki:

“Jack H. Jacobs (born August 2, 1945 in Brooklyn, New York) was a Colonel in the United States Army and a Medal of Honor recipient for his heroic actions during the Vietnam War.

Jack Jacobs, who entered military service through Rutgers University ROTC, earned the Medal of Honor in 1969 for exceptional heroism on the battlefields of Vietnam. He also holds three Bronze Stars, two Silver Stars, and two Purple Heart Medals. Jacobs was an advisor to a Vietnamese infantry battalion when it came under a devastating fire that disabled the commander. Although bleeding from severe head wounds, then 1st Lt. Jacobs took command, withdrew the unit to safety, and returned again and again under intense fire to rescue the wounded and perform life-saving first aid. He saved the lives of a U.S. advisor and 13 allied soldiers.”

So, Jacobs is an honest to goodness war hero. Again, why would he hitch his wagon to Bush chickenhawk train?

Well, he was shot in the head (jes’ can’t resist the snark).

I saw this piece of shit on Tucker yesterday, and they both tag teamed to demean the British sailors, who personally I think did the best they could under the circumstances.

He’s just pissed because he wanted to have a reason to start a war. Fuck him, and fuck Tucker….

CNN: Goodling resigning tomorrow!!!

Malveau says Monica is resigning.

The United States Military Code of Conduct (CoC) is the moral guide for the behavior of U.S. military members who are evading or captured by hostile forces.

The Code of Conduct, in six brief Articles, addresses those situations and decision areas that, to some degree, all military personnel could encounter. It includes basic information useful to captives in their efforts to survive honorably while resisting their captor’s efforts to exploit them to the advantage of the enemy’s cause and their own disadvantage. Such survival and resistance requires varying degrees of knowledge of the meaning of the six Articles of the CoC.

The current Code of Conduct was established by President Dwight D. Eisenhower on 17 August 1955 as a response to inconsistent and prejudicial action taken by U.S. Military members during the Korean War. It has been twice modified, once in 1977 by President Jimmy Carter, and again in 1988 by President Ronald Reagan, who made the code gender-neutral. The Code of Conduct is not punitive in nature, but is supported by the Uniform Code of Military Justice and international law, namely the Geneva Conventions.
Contents

CNN just reporting Monica Goodling is resigning, effective tomorrow.

I assume she must still testify, even if she’s not an employee of the DOJ. Can anyone clarify?

Bustednuckles @ 147

It seems the worse things go in Iraq, the louder the noise coming out of our militarized version of the Wurlitzer gets.
Cheney is still flogging the dead horse about Saddam and Al Queada being in bed together even though it has been thoroughly debunked.
Just who do they have the Wurlitzer pointed at?
Even the average Joe should know by now that is a dead issue, yet Cheney insists on trolling it through the MSM.

BTW, Froomkin knocks on this today.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01116.html

Keep in mind the audience Cheney was adressing. He was speaking to Rush Limbaugh. That audience still believes Saddam had WMD’s and the insurgency is in it’s last throes. He is catering to his “base”.

OT

Just heard on CNN:
Monica Goodling will resign tomorrow.

raven @ 156

The U. S. was not at war with North Korea. Pueblo crew members were incredulous and shocked that we had been attacked and expected the U. S. to attempt to terminate this act of piracy as it happened, and later to retaliate. That the U. S. did neither then, nor retaliated when the EC-121 was shot down with the loss of 34 lives in April 15, 1969 reflects our governments reticence to wage another war. Did not the actions of the government and Pueblo’s crew demonstrate the mood of the country at that time?

Yeah, sometimes when your ship is attacked and your government can’t handle it effectively or truthfully, the attacked crewmen wonder about it and seek justification for rest of their lives.

Please Jane, stop the bleeding!

Unless you are Glenn Reynolds neither the US or England is at war with Iran

sjvalleygal @
170

OT

Just heard on CNN:
Monica Goodling will resign tomorrow.

Heh. Still gonna have to show up in front of the Judiciary Committee, sweet pea!

Peterr @ 155

maunga @ 143

But not ‘military’ on this occasion Peterr, but the navy and Marines who with us are part of the navy. ‘Military’ is “of or pertaining to the ARMY” only. I get riled whenever i here the word incorrectly used, as one does, every day, here in the US.

Where did you come by the “military=army only” usage? I’ve always heard “military” as the counterpart to “civilian” – that is, it is the collective term for all the uniformed services, as in “The Uniform Code of Military Justice” which applies to all branches.

Cough, Peterr — It is the difference between English and the ‘It’s near enough’ of today. The word original and correct meaning of “military” is as an adjective meaning ‘pertaining to the Army’. Amongst the less well-educated it began to be used as a noun meaning The Army, at which point it came to the US, where it transmogrified itself into “anything to do with the armed forces”. I am pretty sure that the US Navy had a Uniform Code of Navy Justice until perhaps the woolliness took over, but when I do not know..

Raven @161 – Hey I’m not military; I am a dirty fucking hippy lawyer who spent his college years skiing like Howard Dean. Jacobs is full on open for attack; just saying his service should not be.

Yeah, sometimes when your ship is attacked and your government can’t handle it effectively or truthfully, the attacked crewmen wonder about it and seek justification for rest of their lives.

I guess that there a lot of us who feel that way about the Nam, huh?

On your way back to look at the U.S.S. Pueblo, be sure to stop off at the U.S. spy plane capture by China that occurred a month or so after Bush/Cheney took office.

(”your” in the generic reader sense)

Ralph @ 158

GSD @
94

As to Jacobs. The Republican Revolution is getting near their Terror phase and have begun to consume their own.

Oh, please, please. If there is a God, I implore most piously that this come to pass. And be televised.

That the Republics had complete power tended to argue against the existence of God. Their steady self-destruction may show otherwise, if it succeeds. Indeed, Bush would then be a tool of God.

Ed*ard Teller @ 160

Is there any chance a firedog asset near or in Wisconsin (hint, hint, ew…?) can interview Georgia Thompson about how she was fucking framed?

Whichever commenter said this is “the smoking gun” is close. This is a case of wrongful imprisonment. Thanks for the link. I recommend everyone read it. And bring it to Joe Klein’s attention, politely.

bmaz @ 176

Raven @161 – Hey I’m not military; I am a dirty fucking hippy lawyer who spent his college years skiing like Howard Dean. Jacobs is full on open for attack; just saying his service should not be.

So, I’m a dirty fucking hippy anti-war vietnam veteran. He’s open for attack and so are you and me. Somehow I seem to have gotten into a position of looking like I was defending his comments when the opposite it true.

casual Friday…..

I saw this son of a bitch on Imus yesterday morning, the same day Imus called a girls basketball team a bunch of nappy headed ho’s!!!
I have NEVER watched Imus in my life, I’m home with a broken leg from working a young colt,I turn on the tv and theres Martina Mcbride singing so I watched until they said those things. Imus gives cowboys like me a bad name. We are not racists!! sorry, had to get that out!! I’d like to K.O. smack them both down, where’s Dan Abrams? Does he want MSNBC to be as hated as Faux?

raven @
177

Yeah, sometimes when your ship is attacked and your government can’t handle it effectively or truthfully, the attacked crewmen wonder about it and seek justification for rest of their lives.

I guess that there a lot of us who feel that way about the Nam, huh?

please, please – don’t get me started!

I wonder if Bush has a Rambo costume?

Those who think that the Brits did the wrong thing are perfectly free to arm a vessel and sail into Iranian waters- ready to defend themselves against armed invaders..

I’m sure that the film would be of value.

Attaturk @
19

Jacobs goes on to say that “no American” would have done what they did

Has Jack ever heard of the USS Pueblo?

For that matter, the last time that Iran took hostages (not that these were really hostages), they kept 53 if them for 444 days. The hostages did not fight to their death when the Embassy was taken.

And Francis Gary Powers did not commit suicide when the U-2 spy plane was shot down in 1960 either.

I can’t understand why Jack Jacobs would rather see all these people dead…unless he has far more nefarious intentions, like starting World War III when this whole incident came to a peaceful resolution with neither side much the worse for wear.

I’m a former Marine, and I can tell you I would’ve done the same thing. International Incident? They prevented a bigger one. That’s why he’s pissed, they want a war w/ Iran.

How shocking that an aggressive career soldier who has achieved the rank of colonel and who teaches at two military institutions would advocate active resistance to capture. Message to our troops and trainees perhaps?

Ed*ard Teller @ 184

raven @
177

Yeah, sometimes when your ship is attacked and your government can’t handle it effectively or truthfully, the attacked crewmen wonder about it and seek justification for rest of their lives.

I guess that there a lot of us who feel that way about the Nam, huh?

please, please – don’t get me started!

I know, I’m sure that there are plenty of Firepups that think, “does everyting this motherfucker say have to relate to Vietnam”?

Not everything, I like the Friday afternoon rock and roll stuff.

punaise @ 182

casual Friday…..

Good Friday. Here in AK, we celebrate GF as the anniversary of the GF earthquake (1964) and the GF Exxon Valdez oilspill (1989) – they happened exactly 25 Good Fridays apart {{{cue TZ theme}}}

TPM reports Monica Goodling is resigning from the DOJ.

Hotflash @ 159

No — not true.

Funny — British officers are required to try to escape, but not Other Ranks, because it was unfair to expect Other Ranks to put themselves at that sort of risk, though they were greatly encouraged to try to escape.
both lot
I think it was probably the same for youtr lot too….. the mad bastards who wanted to get out tried really hard and those who wewre not so keen did not. We, of course, had POWS from May 1940, and yours were in from only 1943……

Bill Bennett just gave his own opinion about the British naval soldiers – basically saying what the Colonel said. Bennett said the British should be embarassed, that the sailors should not have acquiesced to their captors, and that “no American soldiers would ever do such a thing”.

So, this is officially the rightwing talking point. Why are they ragging on the British Navy? I don’t understand this game of chess. How does portraying the British as woosies help the PR machine in the US?

No war-provoking incident with Iran, the nuclear blast fizzled in North Korea right before the elections [timing surely a coincidence], what to do.

I suppose they are still considering sinking one of our own ships and blaming Iran. God help us.

TPM reports Monica Goodling is resigning from the DOJ.

Here’s the link:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c…..013486.php

raven, ‘Nam was a very important period of our history, it also exposed the repugnant party for who they are, that’s why they want us to forget it, but we WILL NEVER FORGET!!!

“This is a very, very difficult one for these naval personnel. They are not prisoners of war. When you are given resistance-to-interrogation training, it really is [intended] for prisoners of war. These sailors have been taken, basically, in a civil dispute, a case that normally goes before normal courts. They’ve been arrested, as opposed to having been captured. And one of the problems here is that if you adopt the stance that you normally do when you’re a prisoner of war — number, rank, and name — in some legal codes, and of course in the Iranian code specifically, the inability of the person who’s been detained to explain why they were there and what they were doing is, in fact, an offense in itself — an admission of guilt. So these people are in a very difficult position. They also haven’t got any access to British consulate officials. But they’re not prisoners of war. They’ve just been arrested. So their status is very, very different, and it must be very, very confusing for them.”

Bustednuckles @ 148

Cheney is still flogging the dead horse about Saddam and Al Queada being in bed together even though it has been thoroughly debunked.

I hate the word “debunk” and it doesn’t serve how depraved the lie cheney is telling

I think we need to start useing the language as effectively as the neo fascists, like so;

“Cheney is still flogging the dead horse about Saddam and Al Queada being in bed together even though it has been thoroughly exposed as nothing but deliberate lies”

And more news. This from TPM Muckraker.

Edwards will not participate in the CBC Fox-hosted debate.

http://electioncentral.tpmcafe…..cbc_debate

And totally on topic, does anyone remember Ahmed Qusai al-Taayie? He was the US Army reservist/translator from Ann Arbor who was captured in Baghdad whil visiting his wife, whom he had secretly married while he was there. A video of him turned up a few weeks ago. Anyone heard of any attempt to get him out/back? A word on the news? Anything?

When faced with overwhelming force- and when there are no strategic interests at stake- americans surrender- they always have.

The japanese- for example- often did not- and engaged in senseless suicide resistance when faced with the same situation..

Strange to see a US officer advocating Japanese military culture.

Rob @ 126

Well said!!

The British are not at war with Iran, and the rest of the world including the good old USA should be grateful their military didn’t have itchy trigger fingers. A fire fight would give Junior and Dead Eye the excuse to attack another oil rich middle eastern country. Drats! Foiled again by cooler heads.

I say, thank God they’re back unharmed, three cheers for those men, who might just have helped avoide another horrible unfortunate war, and I agree with everyone who says those men were prisoners. Why do people like Bush, Chaney, and the rest of our facist administration expect everyone in the world to go die for them? I fear we are “governed” by mad men who represent a very small portion or the U.S. and I thank the Lord that I’m not writing a “We are so sorry you lost your loved ones” letter to the families of the former prisoners.

Rob @
126

Col. Jacobs… and MSNBC should be ashamed (course you have to able to experience shame …..).

Shame is a painful feeling, but, for many people, gaining a lot of money and status is like morphine for a cancer patient.

OK, Perris, works for me.
I just like saying debunked.It reminds me of his undisclosed location, ie ‘bunker’.

Tap Duncan @ 197

raven, ‘Nam was a very important period of our history, it also exposed the repugnant party for who they are, that’s why they want us to forget it, but we WILL NEVER FORGET!!!

Roger that Tap, the only thing I can’t forget is that the Democrats were very bit as responsible. When Kerry would babble on about “Nixon’s War I just had to remember who the CIC was went I went in. . .L fuckn BJ.

maunga @ 150

perris @ 138

1. Proportionately to the numbers in theatre?

2. The British know how to be Occupying Forces, the US does not. The British losses are therefore going to be much smaller in proportion to the total numbers in the field.

Most of us do not know why we are there, either, except that Bliar had the same sort of neocon/PNAC types as his closest advisors. In all logic Britain should have stood by and watched the US lose its influence and power, as Eisenhower and Dulles did their best to demolish Britain’s historic influence in the middle East.

nice post, especially to your larger and most important point, that being the noe cons are military morons

*xyz—

Does that make it more difficult to subpoena her? I never could understand why resignation had any effect on the ability of Congress to grill people.

rwcole @ 202

When faced with overwhelming force- and when there are no strategic interests at stake- americans surrender- they always have.

The japanese- for example- often did not- and engaged in senseless suicide resistance when faced with the same situation..

Strange to see a US officer advocating Japanese military culture.

Hell yes, Dougout Doug got the MOH for leaving Corregidor.

Well I never get tired of your references to ‘Nam, maybe ’cause we’ve all been in the military. You’re right about the Dems, too Bro’

raven @ 180

bmaz @ 176

Raven @161 – Hey I’m not military; I am a dirty fucking hippy lawyer who spent his college years skiing like Howard Dean. Jacobs is full on open for attack; just saying his service should not be.

So, I’m a dirty fucking hippy anti-war vietnam veteran. He’s open for attack and so are you and me. Somehow I seem to have gotten into a position of looking like I was defending his comments when the opposite it true.

I’ve just been reading, and it was clear to me that you were saying attack his stupid statements, but not his military service. Zat what you meant?

egregious @ 210

*xyz—

Does that make it more difficult to subpoena her? I never could understand why resignation had any effect on the ability of Congress to grill people.

Hi EG, back in Lynchburg. Father in law is sitting up eating right now. We took him outside to see the pups after therapy. Things are as good as good as we can hope!

*xyz @ 197

TPM reports Monica Goodling is resigning from the DOJ.

Here’s the link:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c…..013486.php

And they’re just announcing this on Hardball. She is resigning effective tomorrow. I think she may also be cruising for charges of Contempt of Congress, because her lawyers are saying that she just will not show up to testify.

New thread from Christy Hardin Smith:

George Bush: Hardly Working…Again

HotFlash @ 213

raven @ 180

bmaz @ 176

Raven @161 – Hey I’m not military; I am a dirty fucking hippy lawyer who spent his college years skiing like Howard Dean. Jacobs is full on open for attack; just saying his service should not be.

So, I’m a dirty fucking hippy anti-war vietnam veteran. He’s open for attack and so are you and me. Somehow I seem to have gotten into a position of looking like I was defending his comments when the opposite it true.

I’ve just been reading, and it was clear to me that you were saying attack his stupid statements, but not his military service. Zat what you meant?

Yea, but shit,I have a tendency to get outside the margins. Something about and EdD instead of a JD!

egregious @ 216

New thread:

George Bush—Hardly Working, Again

Savefd by the bell!

If Jacob’s thinks it’s despicable for the captured British to not have fought, does he think it is equally despicable that eligible members of the Bush family won’t even serve? After all, if they would serve, a few now serving might be spared multiple tours.

I think the good Col. has skewed his judgement in the name of Television!!!!! Col. Thanks for your service, but with all due respect sir, LOCK IT!!!

This is what the British officer in charge has to say to Jacobs besides STFU

“Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup met with the crew briefly and described them as being “happy and in good shape.” He dismissed questions that the sailors and marines had behaved improperly because they took part in videos on Iranian state television in which they “admitted” trespassing into Tehran’s territorial waters.

“They did exactly as they should have done from start to finish and we are proud of them,” he said.”

*xyz @
201

And more news. This from TPM Muckraker.

Edwards will not participate in the CBC Fox-hosted debate.

http://electioncentral.tpmcafe…..cbc_debate

TRex! – Edwards!

“I am hereby submit my resignation to the Office of the Attorney General”
Monica Goodling
Go Regent U!

I’m not British but … ;-)

I think the prisoners handled their situation very well, according to the literature on how to survive this type of situation.

… 6) Keep a survival attitude. Be positive. Remember, most kidnapping victims survive–the odds are with you. That said, you should prepare yourself for a long captivity. Some hostages have been held for years, but they kept a positive attitude, played their cards right, and were eventually freed. Take it one day at a time.

7) Put your captor at ease. Be calm. Cooperate (within reason) with your captor. Don’t make threats or become violent, and don’t attempt to escape unless the time is right (see below).

8) Keep your dignity. It is generally psychologically harder for a person to kill, rape, or otherwise harm a captive if the captive remains “human” in the captor’s eyes. Do not grovel, beg, or become hysterical. Try even not to cry. Do not challenge your abductor, but show him that you are worthy of respect.

9) Attempt to establish a rapport with your abductor. If you can build some sort of bond with your captor, he will generally be more hesitant to harm you.

… * Avoid insulting your abductor or talking about potentially sensitive subjects. You may think your abductor is a pathetic, disgusting individual. While captives in movies sometimes get away with saying such things, you should keep these thoughts to yourself. In addition, as in most conversations with people you don’t know, politics is a good topic to stay away from, especially if you are being held by terrorists or hostage-takers that are politically motivated.
… * Be a good listener. Care about what your captor has to say. Don’t patronize him, but be empathetic, and he’ll feel more comfortable around you and more benevolent toward you. Being a good listener can also help you gather information that would be useful for an escape or to help police apprehend the abductor after you’re freed.

Which is backed up by the USMC, especially if you read this http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/aw…..rp302e.pdf and scroll down to page 76

*xyz @ 193

TPM reports Monica Goodling is resigning from the DOJ.

Nice to know that our tax dollars helped fund her job seeking efforts over the last several weeks. Any announcement on where she is headed? Or is it the standard cliche: “Spend time with family” line?

“They did exactly as they should have done from start to finish and we are proud of them”

If only we could say the same of our elected officials.

Fifteen US Coast Guardsmen captured boarding pirate radio ship south of Toronto in disputed Lake Ontario waters. Held captive on Jonge Street six days and six nights.

President Cheney launches massive whispering campaign that Canucks are gay, even though they trap beaver. Vice President Michael Moore (ex-ceo of Coors) calls for retaliation and takeover of Molsen’s and Moosehead breweries.

Colonel Jacob, commanding special forces at Niagara Falls, calls Coast Guardsmen whimps. Says they should have fought to the last Maple Leaf’s season ticket holder.

raven—you still here?

Finally, I figured it out! Jacobs is simply a loud, shiny object.

Thompson and now, Goodling, are the story.

The Iran-British sailors story should be over by now. They are home. It’s over. The wingnuts need to divert from the impending explosion over the perversion of the DOJ by the Bushies.

egregious @
228

raven—you still here?

yup

OT – I just read the Max Blumenthal article about Monica Goodling which stated that she was one of 150 graduates of Regent University (Pat Robertson’s ‘college’) in the Bush Administration.

Could anyone give me an idea of how to find out (approximately) how many employees there are in the Administration? I’d like to attempt to find out what percentage of the Administration employees are from this ‘University’ compared to other schools.

Any links or ideas would be very much appreciated.

Maybe Ms Goodling’s resigning so she can get her defense paid for?

Just not show up, eh. Doesn’t look like good counsel to me, but as was the case with Scooter, I am pretty sure that the client is not necessarily the same as the defendant.

Wonder why she’s not resigning today? I mean, it is Friday. Unless she normally workds Saturdays?

So, in one sentence, he called into question the courage of all the servicepeople who were ever held by the enemy side. In his words then, McCain was a “despicable coward”, is it not?
I heard a speech by Seymour Hersh the other night, he said, while he doesn’t unequivocally believe the Iranian side of the story, he does not believe the British or the US side because if they were apprehended even an inch inside the Iraqi waters, we would have published innumerable details about their position at that time. Between the US and the British, there are umpteen number of surveillance equipment watching every inch of the gulf.
This was not by any stretch a hostage situation but either a mistaken or a deliberate incursion.

raven—response up on the next thread

[waving hi to your family and the pups]

Alicia @ 231

OT – I just read the Max Blumenthal article about Monica Goodling which stated that she was one of 150 graduates of Regent University (Pat Robertson’s ‘college’).

Could anyone give me an idea of how to find out (approximately) how many employees there are in the Administration? I’d like to attempt to find out what percentage of the Administration employees are from this ‘University’ compared to other schools.

Any links or ideas would be very much appreciated.

We never did find our anything about that White House Security PhD dude?

Dersu Uzala @ 233

So, in one sentence, he called into question the courage of all the servicepeople who were ever held by the enemy side. In his words then, McCain was a “despicable coward”, is it not?
I heard a speech by Seymour Hersh the other night, he said, while he doesn’t unequivocally believe the Iranian side of the story, he does not believe the British or the US side because if they were apprehended even an inch inside the Iraqi waters, we would have published innumerable details about their position at that time. Between the US and the British, there are umpteen number of surveillance equipment watching every inch of the gulf.
This was not by any stretch a hostage situation but either a mistaken or a deliberate incursion.

Dersu. . .one of the all time great movies!

Plainly, the good colonel doesn’t know what he is talking about. The London Times ran an account of the capture, and the sailors and Royal Marines acted according to their ROE and did so cooly under difficult circumstances. A couple of points–the British service personnel inolved in the incident were Royal Marines (RM) and Royal Navy personnel, not soldiers. They were following their rules of engagement (ROE), which dictate how they are to operate and react to emergencies. The First Sea Lord, the naval officer heading the Royal Navy and RM, has publicly commended them for their performance and said they acted in accordance with their ROE. Remember that Iran and the UK are not in a state of conflict–because of that, technically, the Geneva Conventions do even not apply to them.

The Brits are re-evaluating their ROE and have suspended the inspections for now. In the WP today, David Ignatius has an interesting op-ed on the need for an agreement in that area on incidents at sea–something along the lines of a similar agreement made during the Cold War between the Soviets and the U.S. and the Brits. The USN has been seeking such an agreement due to the potential for a simple mistake or confrontation to get out of control.

John in Sacramento @ 224

So both lots have the same sort of commonsense instructions…… we do not actually WANT to lose people once they are taken!

As a last throw for Jacobs…… How about the Israeli Air force’s destruction of the USS Liberty in 1967 for listening to the Israeli Army murdering Egyptian soldiers they could not be bothered to feed…….. Oh, sorry, Colonel Jacobs, that was a Democratic President who was following the A**AC instructions……

And the thing that’s really pissing off the wingnuts is that the British soldiers made the Iranans look like reasonable civilized people. Which, by and large, they are. Forget about the Embassy. There was something else going on there, and if you don’t wish to forget about the embassy, then we must remember the Sha of Iran, who was apparently CIA all the way. The thing I like about the CIA the professionals in that organization, not the political pus…er never mind…sorry…. is that they have a way of getting their own people killed, which is no less tragic than any other deaths, without bringing in B52s. My idea of American Foreign Service (CIA and so on) are people like the Wilsons. Now, we can add to that list, several British servicemen who had the good sense to keep their heads in a less than ideal situation, and the Iranian Navy who had the good sense to behave (as someone above pointed out) like officers and gentlemen.

a google search turned this interesting tidbit up:

Professor Jim Davids, assistant dean of admin: Prior to joining Regent in 2003, Jim was the Deputy Director and Counsel of the U.S. Department of Justice’s Task Force for the Faith-Based & Community Initiative. As Deputy Director, Jim provided guidance on constitutional issues to the White House and the other departmental Offices of Faith-Based & Community Initiatives. In addition, he audited the Department of Justice to determine the barriers faith-based and community organizations faced in participating in DOJ-funded programs, and he monitored cases which impacted the Faith-Based & Community Initiative. (my bold)

So, he’d been scoping the DOJ out? Jeez!

IrishJim @ 226

*xyz @ 193

TPM reports Monica Goodling is resigning from the DOJ.

Nice to know that our tax dollars helped fund her job seeking efforts over the last several weeks. Any announcement on where she is headed? Or is it the standard cliche: “Spend time with family” line?

As an ex-DOJ employee, Ms. Goodling will no longer be prohibited from accepting gifts, such as the massive cost of being represented by several power lawyers at Ken Mehlman’s firm, Akin Gump.

oofda @ 236

— Thank you from a longer ago serviceman.

I expect we are now EPUd

Attaturk @ 19

Jacobs goes on to say that “no American” would have done what they did

Has Jack ever heard of the USS Pueblo?

Just thinking of the Pueblo – listening to a report of the debriefing of the British crew – they said they tried to use words in their statements like “apparently” to make clear that they weren’t really agreeing with what they were forced to say.
Wasn’t it the Pueblo crew who, in the propaganda photos they were made to sit for, held their hands in positions such as the one-finger salute, etc., to make clear they weren’t agreeing with their captors?
(Showing my age, I know.)
`

Alicia @
231

OT – I just read the Max Blumenthal article about Monica Goodling which stated that she was one of 150 graduates of Regent University (Pat Robertson’s ‘college’) in the Bush Administration.

Could anyone give me an idea of how to find out (approximately) how many employees there are in the Administration? I’d like to attempt to find out what percentage of the Administration employees are from this ‘University’ compared to other schools.

Any links or ideas would be very much appreciated.

Alicia, how about the Alumni Assoc?

Jacobs=Cocky, arrogant, asshole…

I think the article in the Independent by Patrick Cockburn
http://news.independent.co.uk/…..414760.ece
explains a bit of the background to the why’s and wherefore’s of the recent debacle. From what has been written of their ‘treatment’ – it seemed rather par for the course WRT taking ‘prisoners’. Scary for anyone. Most first takes in the political cartoons had Iran come out on top. I also think that there is a lot less of a ‘worry’ here about name calling- cowards or otherwise. The Brits are a lot more circumspect, and are just relieved that their children/sons/daughter,mother, father are home on leave. That some American (who he??) is saying whatever is of little concern. What really ires us here is our Prime Minister acting like George Bush’s poodle. Absolutely disgusting behaviour! PS – no offence to poodles!

Please ask the Colonel what he thinks of the American Air Force personnel who were detained by China early in the Bush administration. Were they cowards too?

tejanarusa @
244

Attaturk @ 19

Jacobs goes on to say that “no American” would have done what they did

Has Jack ever heard of the USS Pueblo?

Just thinking of the Pueblo – listening to a report of the debriefing of the British crew – they said they tried to use words in their statements like “apparently” to make clear that they weren’t really agreeing with what they were forced to say.
Wasn’t it the Pueblo crew who, in the propaganda photos they were made to sit for, held their hands in positions such as the one-finger salute, etc., to make clear they weren’t agreeing with their captors?
(Showing my age, I know.)
`

Sure enough. POW’s in the Nam did the same kind of stuff.

oofda @ 238

Plainly, the good colonel doesn’t know what he is talking about. The London Times ran an account of the capture, and the sailors and Royal Marines acted according to their ROE and did so cooly under difficult circumstances. A couple of points–the British service personnel inolved in the incident were Royal Marines (RM) and Royal Navy personnel, not soldiers. They were following their rules of engagement (ROE), which dictate how they are to operate and react to emergencies. The First Sea Lord, the naval officer heading the Royal Navy and RM, has publicly commended them for their performance and said they acted in accordance with their ROE. Remember that Iran and the UK are not in a state of conflict–because of that, technically, the Geneva Conventions do even not apply to them.

The Brits are re-evaluating their ROE and have suspended the inspections for now. In the WP today, David Ignatius has an interesting op-ed on the need for an agreement in that area on incidents at sea–something along the lines of a similar agreement made during the Cold War between the Soviets and the U.S. and the Brits. The USN has been seeking such an agreement due to the potential for a simple mistake or confrontation to get out of control.

yep, I read that as well and unlike our awful administration, the British actually have diplomatic relations with Iran…

Neither Jacobs nor any other paid mouthpiece on these shows has the right to badmouth the actions of the British sailors/marines and it is beyond belief that they are doing so — maligning our ally and fellow coalition members while still proving that we are nothing but bullies. Can you imagine the shoe being on the other foot???

We look bad in the eyes of the world yet again.
The spying, surveillance, and interference that we and the Brits are conducting may not be so appreciated by the Iranians, either. I would be ticked off in a big way.

here’s what I think everyone seemed to miss;

the bush administration had the NERVE to say these men and women captured admitting guilt couldn’t be trusted because they were speaking out of duress

yet the administration defends torture as fine proof for the people they claim are guilty

Emilou # 247

We are EPUd I expect…… glad to see you Over There keeping an eye on Over Here. I’ve always thought Bliar’s acted like Archie Andrews because of Straw Mandelson and Levy whispering in his ear, as The Lobby/PNAC did to Bush here.

Jane,

Back again. Margins are still screwed up. Can barely see a full line on a page unless I’m in full-screen mode.

Just thinking of the Pueblo – listening to a report of the debriefing of the British crew – they said they tried to use words in their statements like “apparently” to make clear that they weren’t really agreeing with what they were forced to say.
Wasn’t it the Pueblo crew who, in the propaganda photos they were made to sit for, held their hands in positions such as the one-finger salute, etc., to make clear they weren’t agreeing with their captors?
(Showing my age, I know.)
`

Sure enough. POW’s in the Nam did the same kind of stuff. I’m no Denton fan but:

A 1966 television interview showed Navy Cmdr. Jeremiah Denton, a prisoner of war in Vietnam, blinking his eyes in Morse code to spell “torture.”

perris @ 251

here’s what I think everyone seemed to miss;

the bush administration had the NERVE to say these men and women captured admitting guilt couldn’t be trusted because they were speaking out of duress

yet the administration defends torture as fine proof for the people they claim are guilty

Well, duress has always been a defence. So here we have it from the mouth of not only our Commander-in-Chief, but also the chief law officer of the US…… a Defence for the Gitmo boys! Am I not right that the Repbicans made a terrible fuss about the Head of State and Chief Law Officer lying under oath?

Neither Jacobs nor any other paid mouthpiece on these shows has the right to

Uh, I think that’s covered by the 1st Amendment.

Minnesotachuck @
253

Jane,

Back again. Margins are still screwed up. Can barely see a full line on a page unless I’m in full-screen mode.

That’s weird, they look OK to several of the mods. Please refresh your browser and let us know if that doesn’t fix the problem.

raven @
256

Neither Jacobs nor any other paid mouthpiece on these shows has the right to

Uh, I think that’s covered by the 1st Amendment.

ok, ok– my point is that they are paid mouthpieces and ex- military and should at least have some measure of circumspection when it comes to giving yet another of their “stupid” opinions when it comes to our allies at the very least!

Doesn’t he understand or is it all warmongering, me strong- you weak primal beating of the chest all the time?

ok, ok– my point is that they are paid mouthpieces and should at least have some measure of circumspection when it comes to giving yet another of their “stupid” opinions when it comes to our allies at the very least!

Doesn’t he understand or is it all warmongering, me strong- you weak primal beating of the chest?

I predict Jacobs will reconsider his comments. I also predicted the Bears would win the Super Bowl!

Oh, a nice long weekend after slamming Congress all week for taking a break.

(at least they’ve been working; they start earlier and end later than at any time i can remember under Hastert and Frist and they work more days, too)

As for the codpiece… bidness as usual.

WHY isn’t Jack Jacobs over there, FIGHTING, rather than being a girlie-man sissy on teevee in the US?

It just makes my blood boil to see these freaks sitting in the studios of some teevee studio, spouting off at the mouth.

Is Jack an old coot? Yes. But can he WALK? Operate a GUN? Then get the hell over there, you freak, rather than acting like a REAL coward, like Bush, Cheney, and most GOPers.

Is that you John Wayne? Is this me?

Come on America, don’t you get it yet? The wingnuts have different rules for themselves because they’re better than us. When they insult soldiers, they’re ‘experts’, when we say soldiers deserve better (armor, equipment, pay, benefits, care), we’re ‘demoralizing’ the troops.
We have had British soldiers over for dinner and I can tell you they were perfect gentlemen and better ambassadors for their country than Blair and his gang of liars.
Don’t get me started on Jacobs and his bunch.

Alice @ 15

Maybe it is time to take General Electric and Microsoft to task for giving someone like that a platform.

Microsoft pulled out of MSNBC TV…

MSNBC and Microsoft

after 30 years of this its pretty clear that everyone except republicans-who-don’t-fight-but-talk-tough are girly men. Colonel-who-now-sits-on-the-sidelines is just another ridiculous wingnut blowhard. The British should tell him to pull his scabbard out of his ass.

Little tart Tucker was all puffed up and saying the same kinds of things about the Brit sailors.

Sorry, I’m really late for the dance, but I had to add this from my place:

“Oh grow up. Try being sent as decoys into non protected waters, taken by folks you assume are going to kill you and eat your liver with some hummous and a nice Shiraz, and tell me how you would act. If you thought the best chance of survival, to come home to your wife, husband, kids, parents, would be to put on a Howdy Doody costume and sing the Notre Dame fight song in Farsi, you would have hopped on stage faster than Sanjaya after snorting an amyl nitrate in Simon Cowell’s dressing room.”

Late to this, but the pundit generals and media majors can fuck the fuck right off. And that includes their invoking of Churchill too, given that it just exposes their ignorance in a rather embarrassing way.

And if we’re being politically incorrect here, the American military types can start talking smack about the Brits when they start talking smack about ‘friendly-fire’ deaths.

(Here’s my theory: the Iranians did it primarily to open a diplomatic backchannel, and the sabre-rattling on either side is for tabloid consumption.)

bmaz @
123

Slothrop@106 – No it was NOT ok to attack John Kerry. Once you succumb to the lowest common denominator of the right wing, as you appear to advocate, then you are no better.

Well, isn’t the issue whether one attacks with truth or with lies? We have an obligation to attack with the truth. To paraphrase an old sage: If not us, who? But It is not OK to attack with lies and that was what was done to Kerry.

That guys skull strikes me as the type of individual who might be intersted in sniffing pot.

A little old fashioned to say, but I’d like to see the brave Mr. Jacobs call the Marines ‘cowards’ to their face.

SteveA @ 37

All I can say is I really wish Colonel Jack Jacobs had been there to show those Brits how to do it.

Uh-huh. He’d have his nice white Arrow shirt off his bod and used it as a white flag in less time than it’s taken me to type this sentence.

P J Evans @
139

My cubie is p*ssed because the Brits apparently gave the Iranians more than just name, rank, and serial. He thinks they should have held off talking until physical methods were used.

Normally my cubie is sane.

Hmm – name rank and serial number is all that prisoners of war have to give.

Remind me when Britain declared war on Iran. Oh, right…

It’s a question I hope an MP asks Tony “Turd” Blair in his weekly confrontation with Parliament.

It’s a question I hope an MP asks Tony Turd Blair in his weekly confrontation with Parliament.

I’m not British but my take on it is this: The British soldiers and sailors were in Iranian waters doing intelligence operations. Period. Governments being what they are these days, I would hate to be a military person or covert agent depending on my “peeps” taking care of me. If you’re out of contact with media of any kind in a hostile country, all you know is that “your government” is disavowing any knowledge of your mission and that you and your fellow soldiers and sailors are just idiots who got caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. Which is what your government told you when they sent you out. Spying on Iran when no state of war exists and doing so in uniform is a serious offense.

One of the virtues of the younger generation is that most of them question authority. I believe they knew that they were on their own and that their government would leave them there as long as it suited the government’s purpose. Those soldiers and sailors did what they did because they knew/felt they were on their own.

The American and British governments have treated the military as pawns–even less–in pursuit of their policies in the Middle East and other theaters. Self-preservation is every human being’s right; if no one will stand up for you, you have to stand up for yourself.

That’s what the Brits did.

Why the f**k do we have to listen to hate-mongers like Jacobs? He’s full of crap.

So presumably Col. Jacobs put his money where his big, fat mouth is and called the British marines cowards to their faces instead of hiding behind a
TV camera, right? Right?

What in Heaven’s Name has happened to you Lt. Jack, now Colonel? You were once honorable. You hold the highest honors in the land. You are not a coward. You raised the coward under your command above himself and showed him that he could be brave in Vietnam in 69, do you even remember? Where is your honor now?

14 Britsh service men and 1 woman are now back alive, and able to go back and restart duties again. If they had resisted the capture, we now would be in a serious situation, posibly another war.

This “gun hoe” attitude, we will shoot now and ask questions later, is good for Hollywood but not for real situations in real wars.

As a UK resident I feel more bitter about the UK soldiers killed by US friendly fire, who shot first and asked qustions later.

UK commanders often tell UK troops to keep well away from US fire, if they want to stay alive.

Jacobs UP yours!!! You kill people, you have no respect. If I were priminister, there would be certain phone calls to Bush and Jacobs, telling him to shut up, or be shuned by the UK.

You do not treat your freinds like this.

earlofhuntingdon @ 162

Only in a John Le Carre novel would they have been dangled as bait, in hopes that a lethal firefight would justify drastic retaliation.

Was restraining myself for lack of a good way of phrasing that. Well said.

Brits doing similar ops in those disputed waters much before the incident?

( British , living in Canada ).
Britain is the very last country that should be sending military personnel anywhere near Iran .
The Iranians know perfectly well that our MI6 connived with the CIA , successfully , to kill off democracy and install the Shah. Whose police had habits such as strapping you to a bed frame over electric toasters etc .
The Iranians would be justified in feeling murderous towards Britain .
I don’t know if our sailors were politically aware of such history , and to the extent that they were , whether it might have influenced their willingness to risk a bullet through their guts .
Probably they reflect the awareness of the UK population in general ( NOT all that knowledgeable about our colonial history , but shrewd enough to strongly suspect we should not be involved in Iraq , let alone Iran . The british people , in contrast to their government are overwhelmingly against being America ’s poodle in these wars . )
Photographs of these sailors show the typical delicate features of young british – and they look SO young ( in contrast with the wordly cynical exploitative horse-faced anerican politician ).
From the post release interviews and with a litle imagination , you could envisage this :

Teenage sailor , after a week of solitary confinement broken only by repeated warnings that he is in big trouble , now confronted in a cage by several menacing guys ( rifle barrel pointing generally in his direction , and civilian type (in shades with aggressive manner ) saying..
“We need you now to make a decision on our generous offer . You can say to the camera that you know you were in our waters , and then we will put you on a plane back home . Or if you don’t , then our courts will find you guilty and we will put you in jail .They will put you there for seven years , and believe me you will not enjoy them .”

I would not want my sons to play the hero in those circumstances.

This posting is a rare opportunity for a Briton to sound off. Living in N America the interesting politics are all american , and reasonably enough the discourse pays scant attention to my homeland . But since ‘british commentary ‘ was invited this seems the time to offer a wider opinion on the US/UK relationship .
As in .How about putting it to US politicians that the british people would REALLY like it if the US government packed up their nuclear bombs and missiles from Britain , then cleaned up all the toxic stuff on their (numerous) bases there , and went home .
Anticipating that such sentiments are likely to be the more hurtful to americans who feel their country ’saved’ us from Hitler , I apologise .
But only sort of , because most of you believe the Hollywood version of WWII . Which doesn’t ever acknowledge that it was Russia , not the US that made the ( overwhelmingly ) big sacrifices in fighting Hitler .Nor that the war was economicallly the best thing that ever happened to the US – booming economy , and you got the british empire for free ( well , a few second hand battleships were given to the Royal Navy ).
The US troops’ deaths were/are sad . But , again relative to populations , trivial compared to most of the other nations involved .But thanks anyway .
I now have american grandchildren ( in Atlanta ) , and wish for amicable feelings ( and certainly receive them when in the USA from people I meet ) between our peoples .To that end I’d hope for better historical and political awareness on your side ( you really are frighteningly ignorant as a whole – even allowing for Rupert Murdoch ) , and from us , to bear in mind that our and your governments need to be differentiated from our and your people .

So, ummm, how did Mr Jacobs happen to find work with the investment banking firm that was involved with a planned coup against FDR and which is now happily bringing about the deindustrialization of the U.S.A.?

Couldn’t be that anyone in those circles has influnced his thinking or comments? Naah…

You know I find it interesting that after these British troops were back in England & definitely they were told what to say. I don’t believe them at all. Gees, I thought they were going to be separated once back in England where they could find out what really happened
I think we just saw some theatre with scripts in hand both from the same British troops in Iran & then in England.

All to cover Blair’s ass re: the latest scandel.

PS: Who fell into the Neo-Con’s trap by calling British troops “hostages”?