Eli!

It’s funny how the Republicans have so much trouble with “bad apples.” Like the ones who fed the President bad intel on Iraq, or the ones who leaked Valerie Plame’s identity, or the ones who took Jack Abramoff’s dirty money, or the ones who conspired to turn the Justice Department into an arm of the RNC. Of course, unlike (maybe) some of the Abu Ghraib guards, who were thrown into a rotten bucket, most of the Republican apples were pretty rotten to begin with.

And, sadly for them, bad execution. If only their brilliant policies could have been executed half-competently, why then Iraq would be a democracy, OBL would be dead, and all children would get puppies on their birthdays…

Maybe – just maybe – the ideas were bad?

Decent GOP’rs? Earl Warren comes to mind. And some others.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 2

Decent GOP’rs? Earl Warren comes to mind. And some others.

Yeah, I know there are some, I just can’t name any. Or else they’ve morphed into assholes. I suspect John Warner used to be a decent guy; John McCain didn’t seem like such a bad guy until he sold out – although that may have been more a function of friendly reporting…

Boredom is a powerful motive for evil.

Which is why every community should have ample wholesome recreational opportunities for young people.

I don’t think boredom is much of a factor (although I guess peace is pretty boring), but conformity and obedience to authority certainly are

Egregious public corruption tells me that they are personally vile, and have become bored with hurting only those in their immediate circle, and must widen the evil to get a thrill, like drug addicts who have to constantly escalate their “fix”.

Mutant Poodle @ 1

And, sadly for them, bad execution. If only their brilliant policies could have been executed half-competently, why then Iraq would be a democracy, OBL would be dead, and all children would get puppies on their birthdays…

Maybe – just maybe – the ideas were bad?

Well, the thing about evil ideas is, they’re not concerned about positive outcomes. They’re usually based entirely on very narrow self-interest. So those narrow interests benefit, and everyone else pays for it.

sunny @ 4

Boredom is a powerful motive for evil.

Which is why every community should have ample wholesome recreational opportunities for young people.

And Republicans, apparently.

Hello??

But it’s not anonymity that enables evil, it’s impunity.

Not to Godwinize myself or anything, but that was also pretty much also the case with the *cough* not-Z’s.

localroger @ 8

But it’s not anonymity that enables evil, it’s impunity.

Not to Godwinize myself or anything, but that was also pretty much also the case with the *cough* not-Z’s.

That thought did cross my mind. They were pretty seriously evil, but made no attempt at anonymity.

Eli @ 10: They were pretty seriously evil, but made no attempt at anonymity.

I have probably read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich ten times. It’s one of those books I go back to when the world makes no sense. And it’s scary, but very clarifying to see how those same patterns have established themselves again, just in slightly different ways like the self-similar levels of a fractal.

There WERE some good Republicans. Not anymore. Once upon a time, in some long ago time, Republicans actually believed in no deficit spending, no foreign adventures, not being the world’s policeman, minding our own business, separation of church and state, the Constitution and privacy.

The Abu Ghraib should not have surprised anyone. We have prisons in this country where abuse occurs and there certainly have been sadistic guards who are Americans. We just don’t want to hear about it.

the knowledge that they could get away with murder is what transformed them from a bunch of jerks with bad ideas into the lawless band of in-your-face authoritarian sociopaths that John Dean describes so well.

One can not be transformed into an authoritarian but ones mask can slip.

localroger @ 10

I have probably read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich ten times. It’s one of those books I go back to when the world makes no sense. And it’s scary, but very clarifying to see how those same patterns have established themselves again, just in slightly different ways like the self-similar levels of a fractal.

This probably establishes me as a completely shrill leftist, but when some network aired a miniseries about the rise of Hitler, and I saw all these intelligent people saying, “There’s no way people are going to vote for this unqualified obvious thug; there’s no way anyone is going to give him extraordinary powers, etc. etc.”, and it creeped the hell out of me.

That same sense of the inexorable and inexplicable.

I see our current crop of republicans as children, people who NEED to be told what to do, NEED to be told right from wrong, and who have a faith based belief that those they have put in authority (parents) would never lead them astray. I don’t understand how the “old” republicans (Goldwater types) could have morphed from the fiercely independent to today’s fiercly loyal (dependent, childlike) republicans. I’m guessing it has something to do with the christian fundamentalist attitudes toward God-the-Father, and their inclusion for vote gathering purposes in the Republican party. Christianity as contagion?

Sort of OT..But Blackwater wants to build an 850 acre private military base near San Diego. Rep. Duncan Hunter probably helped get the project started.

Massive security contractor faces growing protest in rural California town over 842-acre base
Miriam Raftery and Muriel Kane
Published: Tuesday April 3, 2007
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/….._0403.html

OT — from previous thread

If anyone wants a quick rundown on Giuliana, i.e. “His Greatest Hits”

http://mediamatters.org/items/200605080006

I’m certainly not going to argue that the Republicans were all well-meaning humanitarians before Bush took power, but there used to be some decent ones.

It’s not just that there used to be “some decent ones” — believe it or not republicans used to think for themselves. My dad was a republican. He’d say “I vote for the man not the party”. The men [there were scarcely any women in politics back then] voted for the following men: Dewey, Dewey, Eisenhower, Eisenhower, Nixon, Goldwater, Nixon, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Reagan, and Bush. But…my dad favored legalizing abortion, long before Roe V Wade. My dad turned against the Vietnam War early on. He favored measures to force energy conservation, such as raising fuel taxes and mileage standards. This from a man who worked for GM for 30 years and opposed any other kind of tax! Men and women like my dad are long gone. I used to have lots of heated political disagreements with him, but I could never dismiss his positions out of hand because he thought everything through. He made different assumptions about the world than I did and came to different conclusions, but at least he came to them in large part himself. Where are such republicans these days? or that matter, is it clear that a majority of DC dems are of this ilk?

The Republican Party, because of it’s natural affinity for the rights of large corporations, has morphed into a Criminal Enterprise, from top to bottom. Any nominally decent person who joins the party quickly becomes corrupted by a pervasive culture which is suffused with efforts to subvert democracy in order to benefit the controllers. Those who resist the dominant ideology within the party structure are dispatched (fired or “whatever”) with ease and without conscience, as we have recently seen.

Sorry, but I don’t see the link between boredom and evil actions.

Tibetan Buddhist monks meditate for the greater part of the day — as boring as it gets — and they’re gentle, kind and peaceful.

Slothrop @ 20

Sorry, but I don’t see the link between boredom and evil actions.

Tibetan Buddhist monks meditate for the greater part of the day — as boring as it gets — and they’re gentle, kind and peaceful.

I think that’s the weakest link in the theory. Conformity, authority, and impunity, that’s the toxic stew that makes Republicans tick.

I read about a conservative pornography “expert” who made a real fuss about all of the artcles he had published about how e-e-e-evilll porno was.
Well, it turns out the great bulk of those articles were published in explicitly Christian magazines. Now, let’s thnk about this. A co-religionist, someone who believes as you do, offers you a “scholarly” article on a subject of interest. He’s done lots of them, so it’s probably all properly spelled and formatted.
Seriosly, how likely is it that they’ll check his work for logic and rationality and to see to it that it’s internally consistent, etc?
Nah, I didn’t buy it either!
Fortunately, neither did the courts. They refused to allow him to testify as his opinion was no better than that of yer average “man on the street.”

Eli @ 15: when some network aired a miniseries about the rise of Hitler, and I saw all these intelligent people saying, “There’s no way people are going to vote for this unqualified obvious thug; there’s no way anyone is going to give him extraordinary powers, etc. etc.”, and it creeped the hell out of me.

It’s truly terrifying. They were people not so different from us. I think the only reason things are different today is the Internet. In the 1920’s long-distance communication was so difficult that it was easily controlled by the government. In fact, we may be living in a small window before “improved” technology renders such control possible again. As it is, the would-be Not-Z’s of our era have obviously and consciously tried to attain the control Hitler had over the German media, and they have come close to succeeding in the case of the MSM.

localroger @ 23

and they have come close to succeeding in the case of the MSM.

I often wonder just how bad the media would be without the nagging of the blogosphere.

livetoad @ 19

I’m certainly not going to argue that the Republicans were all well-meaning humanitarians before Bush took power, but there used to be some decent ones.

It’s not just that there used to be “some decent ones” — believe it or not republicans used to think for themselves. My dad was a republican. He’d say “I vote for the man not the party”. The men [there were scarcely any women in politics back then] voted for the following men: Dewey, Dewey, Eisenhower, Eisenhower, Nixon, Goldwater, Nixon, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Reagan, and Bush. But…my dad favored legalizing abortion, long before Roe V Wade. My dad turned against the Vietnam War early on. He favored measures to force energy conservation, such as raising fuel taxes and mileage standards. This from a man who worked for GM for 30 years and opposed any other kind of tax! Men and women like my dad are long gone. I used to have lots of heated political disagreements with him, but I could never dismiss his positions out of hand because he thought everything through. He made different assumptions about the world than I did and came to different conclusions, but at least he came to them in large part himself. Where are such republicans these days? or that matter, is it clear that a majority of DC dems are of this ilk?

I can almost “ditto” that, livetoad. But my pop is still a republican and he has changed. He didn’t go all in, (Schiavo) but he’s become a torturer sympathizer among other things. They love Bush, I guess.
(edit) and the goddamn lying is no prob, either.

Eli @ 6

Mutant Poodle @ 1

And, sadly for them, bad execution. If only their brilliant policies could have been executed half-competently, why then Iraq would be a democracy, OBL would be dead, and all children would get puppies on their birthdays…

Maybe – just maybe – the ideas were bad?

Well, the thing about evil ideas is, they’re not concerned about positive outcomes. They’re usually based entirely on very narrow self-interest. So those narrow interests benefit, and everyone else pays for it.

The part that I find interesting/puzzling, Eli, is that the “Evil” ones have been so able to lead their minions, like Sampson and Goodling into not only doing their evil for them, but into covering up for them. Even to the point of lying for them-and KNOWING that they are lying, against every tenent they have been taught. People who have been raised with “What would Jeasus Do?” have been convinced to disregard what jesus would do in order to meet their leaders expectations/needs. The willingness to sacrifice for authority that runs counter to everything they have been taught simply astounds me.

The GOP has become sordid, tawdry, self-focused, greedy, corrupt and fascistic. I don’t know what else to say. I cannot find a single redeeming example in the Republican Party. And yet, the GOP politicians and rank and file Republicans love George Bush.

conniptionfit @ 26

The part that I find interesting/puzzling, Eli, is that the “Evil” ones have been so able to lead their minions, like Sampson and Goodling into not only doing their evil for them, but into covering up for them. Even to the point of lying for them-and KNOWING that they are lying, against every tenent they have been taught. People who have been raised with “What would Jeasus Do?” have been convinced to disregard what jesus would do in order to meet their leaders expectations/needs. The willingness to sacrifice for authority that runs counter to everything they have been taught simply astounds me.

I am convinced that the Christian Right either only pays lip service to the New Testament; or else believes that its message of compassion only applies to their own kind.

Then again, “Thou Shalt Not Lie” is in the Old Testament…

Slothrop @ 21

Sorry, but I don’t see the link between boredom and evil actions.

Tibetan Buddhist monks meditate for the greater part of the day — as boring as it gets — and they’re gentle, kind and peaceful.

Yes, Tibetan monks are meditating, or looking inwards. The unexamined life is not worth living and all that. We are talking about people who are, almost without exception, incapable of self-reflection. These ones must do something to stimulate themselves, not having any solid foundation for a peaceful and fulfilling existence.

sunny @ 29

Slothrop @ 21

Sorry, but I don’t see the link between boredom and evil actions.

Tibetan Buddhist monks meditate for the greater part of the day — as boring as it gets — and they’re gentle, kind and peaceful.

Yes, Tibetan monks are meditating, or looking inwards. The unexamined life is not worth living and all that. We are talking about people who are, almost without exception, incapable of self-reflection. These ones must do something to stimulate themselves, not having any solid foundation for a peaceful and fulfilling existence.

Have you ever seen a movie called Naked? David Thewlis’s borderline sociopathic character comes across as someone restlessly channel-surfing through life (but with people instead of channels).

Eli @ 25: I often wonder just how bad the media would be without the nagging of the blogosphere.

The Germans got plenty of nagging from around the world for their “faux news.” Shirer goes into it pretty thoroughly in TRAFOT3R since he was a radio journalist. It’s really startlingly similar how even in that they they just didn’t care. Those who refused to read the approved lies were removed from the airwaves and newsrooms and there was never a shortage of willing sycophants to replace them. Shirer himself reports the war from a remove after 1942 or so since it became impossible for him to do his job from inside Germany.

conniptionfit @ 16

I see our current crop of republicans as children, people who NEED to be told what to do, NEED to be told right from wrong, and who have a faith based belief that those they have put in authority (parents) would never lead them astray. I don’t understand how the “old” republicans (Goldwater types) could have morphed from the fiercely independent to today’s fiercly loyal (dependent, childlike) republicans. I’m guessing it has something to do with the christian fundamentalist attitudes toward God-the-Father, and their inclusion for vote gathering purposes in the Republican party. Christianity as contagion?

When I say “childlike” I mean in the sense of a toddler with a loaded shotgun.

localroger @ 31

Eli @ 25: I often wonder just how bad the media would be without the nagging of the blogosphere.

The Germans got plenty of nagging from around the world for their “faux news.” Shirer goes into it pretty thoroughly in TRAFOT3R since he was a radio journalist. It’s really startlingly similar how even in that they they just didn’t care. Those who refused to read the approved lies were removed from the airwaves and newsrooms and there was never a shortage of willing sycophants to replace them. Shirer himself reports the war from a remove after 1942 or so since it became impossible for him to do his job from inside Germany.

But their media was outright owned by the state, right? Ours is merely in bed with it.

Since we are talking about torture. From the LA Times:

U.S. Agents Visit Ethiopian Secret Jails
By ANTHONY MITCHELL, Associated Press Writer
4:34 PM PDT, April 3, 2007

NAIROBI, Kenya — CIA and FBI agents hunting for al-Qaida militants in the Horn of Africa have been interrogating terrorism suspects from 19 countries held at secret prisons in Ethiopia, which is notorious for torture and abuse, according to an investigation by The Associated Press.

Human rights groups, lawyers and several Western diplomats assert hundreds of prisoners, who include women and children, have been transferred secretly and illegally in recent months from Kenya and Somalia to Ethiopia, where they are kept without charge or access to lawyers and families.

The detainees include at least one U.S. citizen and some are from Canada, Sweden and France, according to a list compiled by a Kenyan Muslim rights group and flight manifests obtained by AP.

LINK

Bippity Boppity Abu…

The relationship between boredom and evil actions occurs when children are bored and are given activities that are violence-oriented that excite fear and the adrenal system as a reward.

Do authoritarian following types have difficulty admitting that characteristic?

I may stand alone here on this. But I like Rosie O’Donnell, and what this woman has to say.

LS @ 35

Bippity Boppity Abu…

The relationship between boredom and evil actions occurs when children are bored and are given activities that are violence-oriented that excite fear and the adrenal system as a reward.

I don’t doubt it one bit as an evil enabler in general; I just doubt it as a factor for the Republicans.

LS
i left you a lengthy comment about the ants and rove at last thread at 107

Oklahoma kiddo @ 28

The GOP has become sordid, tawdry, self-focused, greedy, corrupt and fascistic. I don’t know what else to say. I cannot find a single redeeming example in the Republican Party. And yet, the GOP politicians and rank and file Republicans love George Bush.

Do they love, or are they so dependent on having a leader that they are unable to find fault?

Eureka Springs @ 36

Do authoritarian following types have difficulty admitting that characteristic?

I’m pretty sure they see their willingness to blindly follow authority as an act of bold independence… from everyone who tells them not to.

Eli @ 31: But their media was outright owned by the state, right? Ours is merely in bed with it.

No, just like ours theoretically independent. Before the Nazis took over the newspapers and radio stations were corporations independent from the State, but as everyone agreed was a good idea subject to appropriate State censorship for the usual reasons such as national security, etc. Such control would, everybody agreed, only be exercised in times of dire need *cough*.

“I admit that I’m going out on a limb with the decent-Republicans claim, but I do know several Republicans who are very nice, so it should theoretically be possible.”

there are decent people that claim to be republicans. But these are strictly the disengaged person who has no idea what it means to be today’s republican – they, at some point early in their life decided they were repuiblican and never learned enough about what that means to change. Anyone and everyone that knows what it means to be a republican really is an awful person to be kept away from power and otherwise avoided.
.
.

localroger @ 42

Eli @ 31: But their media was outright owned by the state, right? Ours is merely in bed with it.

No, just like ours theoretically independent. Before the Nazis took over the newspapers and radio stations were corporations independent from the State, but as everyone agreed was a good idea subject to appropriate State censorship for the usual reasons such as national security, etc. Such control would, everybody agreed, only be exercised in times of dire need *cough*.

Well, you can’t have the media blabbing away about your wiretaps or secret prisons…

Zimbardo was in a documentary on the Stanford Prison Experiment which was posted on youtube in 5 parts

Right here [scroll down for the videos]

john in sacramento @ 45

Zimbardo was in a documentary on the Stanford Prison Experiment which was posted on youtube in 5 parts

Right here [scroll down for the videos]

I was trying to find a larger chunk of that to lead off the post, but didn’t have any luck.

I went to Stanford, and got to see that documentary. The blonde woman in blue was actually in my dorm…

LS
lengthy ants and rove comment at last thread is at 119 NOT 107

localroger @ 24

Eli @ 15: when some network aired a miniseries about the rise of Hitler, and I saw all these intelligent people saying, “There’s no way people are going to vote for this unqualified obvious thug; there’s no way anyone is going to give him extraordinary powers, etc. etc.”, and it creeped the hell out of me.

It’s truly terrifying. They were people not so different from us. I think the only reason things are different today is the Internet. In the 1920’s long-distance communication was so difficult that it was easily controlled by the government. In fact, we may be living in a small window before “improved” technology renders such control possible again. As it is, the would-be Not-Z’s of our era have obviously and consciously tried to attain the control Hitler had over the German media, and they have come close to succeeding in the case of the MSM.

I read Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (William Shirer) a few times myself. I can also recommend The Rising Sun, by John Toland.

What boggles the mind is comparing the situation the Germans faced after World War I to our relatively comfortable one after 9/11…how we were so easily stampeded out of our liberties and into a disastrous war.

There are Dominionist-type pseudo-Christians who believe that lying (they would put it in quotes, “lying”) is A-OK if they do it “in the name of the Lord.”

Of course, this is flat-out heresy, not that they care. They are cult members, and they have taken control of every Federal agency, placed there by Dear Leader to harrass and hound out of service as many real public servants as possible.

Here’s a good and very scary dKos diary about precisely this matter, the frightening prospect of what will happen when push comes to shove with these cult members:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/4/2/121745/4467

They have lots in common with the PNAC fans of Leo Strauss, who also believe it’s perfectly reasonable for the elites to lie to the “commoners,” the serfs such as we.

These folks joined forces. Why, I’m sure they lie TO EACH OTHER about their motivations, for example the PNAC crowd is perfectly happy to tell the fundie Dominionists that they too are “Christian” if it’ll get them the support they want in the form of zealots to act as legionnaires for Dear Leader.

They are extraordinarily dangerous. They are in every way just as scary (and just as devoted to “democracy”) as Stalinists.

What do we do about them? Other than push them into the “klieg lights,” that is…

Way off topic:

There is a good story on The NewHour tonight about the missing bees and the “bee colony collapse disorder.” Without the bees, no pollination, no crops, no food. (www.pbs.org, available as audio podcast here at pbs and at iTunes)

Zimbardo’s (and Milgram’s) work showed that you could pull the ordinary person off the street and produce evil. Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Bolton were evil even when they were on the streets. Their evil was not produced, it was enabled.

Mrs. K8 @ 49

There are Dominionist-type pseudo-Christians who believe that lying (they would put it in quotes, “lying”) is A-OK if they do it “in the name of the Lord.”

Of course, this is flat-out heresy, not that they care. They are cult members, and they have taken control of every Federal agency, placed there by Dear Leader to harrass and hound out of service as many real public servants as possible.

Here’s a good and very scary dKos diary about precisely this matter, the frightening prospect of what will happen when push comes to shove with these cult members:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/4/2/121745/4467

They have lots in common with the PNAC fans of Leo Strauss, who also believe it’s perfectly reasonable for the elites to lie to the “commoners,” the serfs such as we.

These folks joined forces. Why, I’m sure they lie TO EACH OTHER about their motivations, for example the PNAC crowd is perfectly happy to tell the fundie Dominionists that they too are “Christian” if it’ll get them the support they want in the form of zealots to act as legionnaires for Dear Leader.

Sounds like Plato’s Republic run amok…

Eli @ 45: Well, you can’t have the media blabbing away about your wiretaps or secret prisons…

The Nazis didn’t bother to keep their prisons secret, but definitely the details of what went on inside. And the real reasons for why high level policy decisions were made were also not exactly public knowledge.

Meanwhile, what the hell IS going on with us w/r/t Iran? And is that a braggadocio-poisoned leader overextending himself I see there in WashDC?

What would be our equivalent of getting stuck in the Russian winter? Please not nukes. Please not nukes. But I am not optimistic about the long run on that.

Eli @ 31

sunny @ 29

Have you ever seen a movie called Naked? David Thewlis’s borderline sociopathic character comes across as someone restlessly channel-surfing through life (but with people instead of channels).

Yes! A masterwork of a film. Thewlis’ monologue has to be the best ever put on celluloid.

spinoza @ 51

Zimbardo’s (and Milgram’s) work showed that you could pull the ordinary person off the street and produce evil. Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Bolton were evil even when they were on the streets. Their evil was not produced, it was enabled.

There were a whole bunch of directions I wanted to go with this post, and just didn’t have space for. One of them was, What happens when you put someone who is evil to begin with into this kind of evil-enabling situation? Perhaps it’s inevitable that they would be drawn to it.

Eli, when you say that there were some decent republicans, I think of Lincoln Chaffee. He is a good person, it seems to me. He did need to be beat so we could have the majority, but sad. It will take the republicans a long time to recover from this madness.

I’d certainly take Lincoln over some of ours.

localroger @ 53

Please not nukes. Please not nukes. But I am not optimistic about the long run on that.

I firmly believe that nuking someone is on Dubya’s list of Cool Presidential Things To Do Before Leaving Office.

sunny @ 54

Yes! A masterwork of a film. Thewlis’ monologue has to be the best ever put on celluloid.

Oh, good – I was beginning to think I was the only one who had seen it. I thought Thewlis was going to be a star, but it just never happened.

ls–it was 107 in last thread after all, can’t read my own notes

sorry all- i’m being distracted by my cats and my dog, in and out and storm coming……….

Terry Olson @ 56

Eli, when you say that there were some decent republicans, I think of Lincoln Chaffee. He is a good person, it seems to me. He did need to be beat so we could have the majority, but sad. It will take the republicans a long time to recover from this madness.

I’d certainly take Lincoln over some of ours.

If he had switched parties, he probably would have won in a walk.

Eli @ 29: I am convinced that the Christian Right either only pays lip service to the New Testament; or else believes that its message of compassion only applies to their own kind.

Prior to the Iraq war, a cousin of mine sent out emails to all her friends reassuring them that it was acceptable for Christians to go to war. She came to this conclusion by carefully reading her bible and pulling all the parts that she believed justified killing. People see what they want to see.

ifthethunderdontgetya @ 49: What boggles the mind is comparing the situation the Germans faced after World War I to our relatively comfortable one after 9/11…how we were so easily stampeded out of our liberties and into a disastrous war.

Yes, I think the SPE and Milgram experiments go a long way to showing why that’s the case though. After all, the US went through a horrible Depression too. It’s not poverty or hardship, but raw fear and emotion, expertly whipped up by an agitator who knows our weakness. Orwell got it right with the idea of “hate week.” It’s not the product of rational actors that creates such a state, it’s more like the pack response of a bunch of animals. Our instincts are obviously very broken in certain regards.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 38

I may stand alone here on this. But I like Rosie O’Donnell, and what this woman has to say.

So do I. It cracks me up when they gang up on her on the cable shows etc. She knows they use her antics to bash her and I think she is playing them by having them pick up on the story and spreading it far and wide. Kudos to Rosie and the dog that didn’t bark! lolo

Come the Revolution, Brother… Look, no kidding, are they, could they seriously be setting us up for a military coup? Am I crazed here, to have this sneaking concern that we may really be looking at the 2nd American Revolution in the next 20 years?

Eli @ 58: I firmly believe that nuking someone is on Dubya’s list of Cool Presidential Things To Do Before Leaving Office.

Sadly, I’m sure you are right.

dmac @ 59

ls–it was 107 in last thread after all, can’t read my own notes

sorry all- i’m being distracted by my cats and my dog, in and out and storm coming……….

What I really, really like, is when my Siamese walks across my keyboard. Of course she knows full well I won’t get angry. Since she’s the boss and will deprive me of her company, and then I will become katatonic. ;0)

this is one great post

it’s got incredible insight and this post should be highlighted and sent to every reporter…all media figures both ballanced and imbalanced (in all senses of the word imballanced)

eli, great idea connecting these dots…most people fail

this is exactly what we get when we put people who are not professionls with the proper training in situations like this

excellant post

Eli- thanks for another great post.

I am reminded of a study I was told about a long while back. I tried to google it, but just couldn’t remember enough key words to limit the search.

The study was done with college students, who were set up to be parts of groups. But, all except for the actual study subject (one person) were “ringers”. The “group” was presented with obviously false information, and had to determine if it was true or false.

The “ringers” were instructed to gradually support the false view, with the intent of applying group pressure to the one “naive” holdout. The “naive” individual (not in on the plan) continued to argue that the data was true (as it was), as the “ringers” one by one asserted that the data false.

When there was still one “ringer” who was also agreeing with the “naive” subject that the data was false, the naive/test person continued to hold out on his correct conclusion that the data was true.

But, THEN this last “ringer” finally agreed with the group that the data was false. Not so long after, the test subject agreed that that the data was indeed false.

This story was related to me at a time when I was up against tremendous group pressure for not being a “team player”, even though my values were correct.

The person who told me about the study said “you need one ally, one person who agrees with what you say. Do you have that?”

The story and the truth of it have stuck with me. And, your post brought it back. Thanks.

p.s. I just edited- got one false/ true wrong before.

Eli—

Profound post.
I thank you.

Yeah, ok, I can’t decide if it’s time for another beer, or if it’s time for the wagon to come pick me up… any opinions?

VG, I remember that study. Scary.

I recently came across Ron Paul, Repub:

“Congress failed to meet its responsibilities four years ago, unconstitutionally transferring its explicit war power to the executive branch. Even though the administration started the subsequent pre-emptive war in Iraq, Congress bears the greatest responsibility for its lack of courage in fulfilling its duties. Since then Congress has obediently provided the funds and troops required to pursue this illegitimate war.

We won’t solve the problems in Iraq until we confront our failed policy of foreign interventionism.”

Also, see this speech in the House, about Iran as next target of neocons, from a year ago.
http://www.house.gov/paul/cong…..040506.htm

Eli,

Although I do not disagree with the sentiment of what you’ve written here, I think it represents at best a facile juxtaposition, and at worst a gross misinterpretation and misapplication of Zimbardo’s results. “Of course, unlike (maybe) some of the Abu Ghraib guards, who were thrown into a rotten bucket, most of the Republican apples were pretty rotten to begin with.”? These out-of-hand judgements are precisely what Zimbardo’s research can be interpreted as opposing. See the “Fundamental Attribution Error”. No?

-Bogey

Eli @ 58: I firmly believe that nuking someone is on Dubya’s list of Cool Presidential Things To Do Before Leaving Office.

Poppy went on record some years ago saying he believes we can survive a nuclear attack.

I have a very hard time thinking China, Russia, Pakistan and India will sit idly by while Mr. Bush lobs a nuke at someone. Of course I realize these sorts of consequences don’t enter the ‘mind’ of a megalomaniac.

I wonder how the study got past the Institutional Review Board at Stanford.

Eli @ 47

john in sacramento @ 45

Zimbardo was in a documentary on the Stanford Prison Experiment which was posted on youtube in 5 parts

Right here [scroll down for the videos]

I was trying to find a larger chunk of that to lead off the post, but didn’t have any luck.

I went to Stanford, and got to see that documentary. The blonde woman in blue was actually in my dorm…

Kewl! So you knew some of those people.

I’ve been meaning to do a blog on a subject tangential to this, based on the study Political Conservatism as Motivated Social Cognition; but it’s not easy to synthesize in two or three hours because of the first study and the rebuttal by the troglodyte Republicans, and lastly the response by Jost, Glaser, Sulloway, et al – are all in academicese (dry, pasty wording) (if Shrub can make up words so can I).

Maybe this weekend

mulligatawny @ 71

I recently came across Ron Paul, Repub:

“Congress failed to meet its responsibilities four years ago, unconstitutionally transferring its explicit war power to the executive branch. Even though the administration started the subsequent pre-emptive war in Iraq, Congress bears the greatest responsibility for its lack of courage in fulfilling its duties. Since then Congress has obediently provided the funds and troops required to pursue this illegitimate war.

We won’t solve the problems in Iraq until we confront our failed policy of foreign interventionism.”

Also, see this speech in the House, about Iran as next target of neocons, from a year ago.
http://www.house.gov/paul/cong…..040506.htm

Be exceedingly careful of assuming that one concurring opinion doth a kindred spirit make. You should check out some of the OTHER opinions this guy holds. Scary.

localroger @ 61

ifthethunderdontgetya @ 49: What boggles the mind is comparing the situation the Germans faced after World War I to our relatively comfortable one after 9/11…how we were so easily stampeded out of our liberties and into a disastrous war.

Yes, I think the SPE and Milgram experiments go a long way to showing why that’s the case though. After all, the US went through a horrible Depression too. It’s not poverty or hardship, but raw fear and emotion, expertly whipped up by an agitator who knows our weakness. Orwell got it right with the idea of “hate week.” It’s not the product of rational actors that creates such a state, it’s more like the pack response of a bunch of animals. Our instincts are obviously very broken in certain regards.

It could not have happened if our so called fourth estate was not so completely in the tank for the republican party. And they can’t redeem themselves until they admit it.

And that is also the problem with ‘decent republicans’. If your party is committing mass murder, torture, and destroying the very fabric of our Republic itself, making Arlen Spector noises and choosing the course which best improves your personal prospects does not make you decent.

Eli @ 71

VG, I remember that study. Scary.

Eli- I would very much like to find a link to the original study, but just couldn’t figure out how to find it. Maybe you know more details to help me google it?

Amy Goodman covered this story with an hour long interview with Dr. Zimbardo, with ample film clips on Friday’s Democracy Now! program:

http://www.democracynow.org/ar…..30/1335257

melfeasance @ 73

Eli @ 58: I firmly believe that nuking someone is on Dubya’s list of Cool Presidential Things To Do Before Leaving Office.

Poppy went on record some years ago saying he believes we can survive a nuclear attack.

Well, Yeah, we can survive one, but would it be fun?

dmac @
59

ls–it was 107 in last thread after all, can’t read my own notes

sorry all- i’m being distracted by my cats and my dog, in and out and storm coming……….

Got it dmac. Thank you. We’re waiting for a “severe” storm too.

Slothrop @ 21

Sorry, but I don’t see the link between boredom and evil actions.

Tibetan Buddhist monks meditate for the greater part of the day — as boring as it gets — and they’re gentle, kind and peaceful.

sorry but meditating all day is an excersize in fully aware self dicipline.if you are bored you are not meditating.you are just sitting there.

Bogey @ 71

Eli,

Although I do not disagree with the sentiment of what you’ve written here, I think it represents at best a facile juxtaposition, and at worst a gross misinterpretation and misapplication of Zimbardo’s results. “Of course, unlike (maybe) some of the Abu Ghraib guards, who were thrown into a rotten bucket, most of the Republican apples were pretty rotten to begin with.”? These out-of-hand judgements are precisely what Zimbardo’s research can be interpreted as opposing. See the “Fundamental Attribution Error”. No?

I admit to having a hard time imagining Republicans starting out virtuous – Rove and Dubya have been creeps their entire adult lives, but others don’t have the same track record.

I really don’t have a problem with the premise that Republicans started out decent and became corrupted by their situation – especially the ones who started out as Democrats. The thing is, there is some self-selection at work, so that as the Republican party becomes progressively (heh) more and more evil, it will increasingly attract more and more adherents who are evil to begin with.

But I do not dispute that there are Republicans who joined the party when it was still sane and responsible, who got caught up in the hysteria that I think really took off in the Newt Gingrich era.

masaccio @ 76

I wonder how the study got past the Institutional Review Board at Stanford.

The Milgram study is one of the major reasons there are Institutional Review Boards. I’m not sure about Zimbardo’s; it may just have caused major changes in the way they work.

VG@80

I think this was a study about a group deciding that 2 2=5, so maybe a psych test with math reference will get you a more refined search.

Dr. Freeman knows whereof he speaks:

Today, the Holt bill [to remedy HAVA] faces a “fast track” vote in Congress. Essentially this means an up or down vote on a terrible bill, rather than an opportunity to speak in the nation’s most important forum about what may well be the greatest threat to democracy in the history of the republic.

[snip]

There are good people fighting for this bill under the flag of reform, but whether or not congress votes to retrofit DREs to include a VVPAT [Voter Verified Paper Audit Trail] is quite beside the point. As Kathy Dopp, Brad Friedman, Bev Harris, Paul Lehto, Nancy Tobi, and others have pointed out, the so-called “paper trail” is for all intents and purposes utterly useless. In a California ruling yesterday, a judge declined to access the so-called paper trail even though the election was officially decided by only three votes. (Orange County had spent $12 million on that retrofit.) In every contested election where such a paper trail has been called into question, the paper trail has been too corrupted to use (see for example, Rebecca Mercuri’s testimony on the 2006 Ohio election audit.)

Even if protocol were scrupulously followed, however, we know they CANNOT work. Extensive testing reveals people do not systematically verify the second paper ballot.

But, worse, we err, if we focus exclusively on DREs. As Paul Lehto put it, “DREs are like the wolf, and optical scan is the wolf in sheep’s clothing.” To rig either type of machine to alter any Election Day totals is equally facile.

Lehto, an attorney with more experience accessing these trails than anyone, explains: “Optical scan systems also features secret vote counting, proprietary software, no public observation or verification, and the single check of the paper recount is expensive, unwieldy, resisted, and even the laws allowing them tend to be gamed against good recounts.”

What little evidence we have about the verity of election results indicates that all machine counts are vulnerable, not just DREs. For example, in the 2004 US Presidential Election, official results matched closely with exit poll survey results in precincts where votes were cast on paper and counted manually, but nationwide in precincts where machine counts were used, there was a seven percentage point differential between how voters said they cast their ballots and official results. This seven percentage point differential amounted to some nine million votes, far more than enough to turn a decisive Bush defeat into what the NY Times and others celebrated as a “decisive victory.”

[snip]

For the most part, speakers who have testified before congress speak of red herrings such as “voter-fraud” (voters who illegally cast ballots) or “security problems.” None speak of the scope and scale of the actual problems and the threat.

http://www.electionintegrity.o…..Defeat.htm

Thank you for this, Eli. Very, very scary.

conniptionfit @ 70

Yeah, ok, I can’t decide if it’s time for another beer, or if it’s time for the wagon to come pick me up… any opinions?

Paddy wagon, chain gang truck, or soylent green vehicle?

Eli @ 71

VG, I remember that study. Scary.

p.s. Eli- this was told to me by a great friend who was greatly involved in revealing the plight of jailed scientists in SA during the Peron regime, and acting on their behalf. Often, he was the “one person” who stood by them, albeit by circuitous means.

melfeasance @ 74

Eli @ 58: I firmly believe that nuking someone is on Dubya’s list of Cool Presidential Things To Do Before Leaving Office.

Poppy went on record some years ago saying he believes we can survive a nuclear attack.

In addition to Paraguay they have developed an enormous compound in N.Z.

Did you see Zimbardo on The Daily Show. (3/29)

http://www.comedycentral.com/s…..ndex.jhtml

Enjoy.

egregious @ 89

conniptionfit @ 70

Yeah, ok, I can’t decide if it’s time for another beer, or if it’s time for the wagon to come pick me up… any opinions?

Paddy wagon, chain gang truck, or soylent green vehicle?

U pick, I’m entirely in your hands…

livetoad @ 19

I’m certainly not going to argue that the Republicans were all well-meaning humanitarians before Bush took power, but there used to be some decent ones.

… Where are such republicans these days? or that matter, is it clear that a majority of DC dems are of this ilk?

The media is such a powerful force that keeps repeating the message that “America is the land of the free” that here we can all be individuals. The reality is of course that we are thoroughly homogenized. How many people actually think for themselves and are willing to take a reasoned and principledstand. Just look at all of the sheep we have in Congress.

Zimbardo was on the Daily Show last week. I posted the transcript here.

conniptionfit @ 82

melfeasance @ 73

Eli @ 58: I firmly believe that nuking someone is on Dubya’s list of Cool Presidential Things To Do Before Leaving Office.

Poppy went on record some years ago saying he believes we can survive a nuclear attack.

Well, Yeah, we can survive one, but would it be fun?

I’m in. Pass the iodine pills.

itwasntme @ 87

VG@80

I think this was a study about a group deciding that 2 2=5, so maybe a psych test with math reference will get you a more refined search.

Thanks. I will also ask the person who mentioned it to me for further info. He may be better than google!

The fish rots from the head down. With torture, it was
President Bush
Vice President Cheney
Alberto “Geneva Conventions are quaint” Gonzales
John Yoo
Jay Bybee (of the Bybee memo: if there is no organ failure or death, it’s not torutre, now a federal judge)
Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld
Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence Stephen Cambone
Gen. Jerry “Islam is evil” Boykin
Gen. Geoffrey “Gitmo-ize” Miller
Gen. Barbara Fast (Miller’s adjutant and later head of intelligence in Iraq)

Add these up and you get Abu Ghraib.

Eli @ 85

But I do not dispute that there are Republicans who joined the party when it was still sane and responsible, who got caught up in the hysteria that I think really took off in the Newt Gingrich era.

It definitely took off then (Gingrich was the one who instructed his “troops” not to even talk to the Democrats, and to think of them not as their opponents but as their enemies), but a lot of it began with Reagan’s people.

Which reminds me of something I’ve been thinking of — Andrew Sullivan apparently has written that he’s glad the Republicans are going to crash and burn, because it will enable sane people to take control again. (I’m paraphrasing.)

However, the Republicans crashed and burned after Watergate. There were those who thought the party should disband, or change its name, if members were ever going to be elected again. The ones who came riding to the rescue and resurrected it were Reagan and his ilk, not sane, decent Republicans.

Be careful what you wish for, Mr. Sullivan.

Excellent post.

I think this was a study about a group deciding that 2 2=5,

Wonder if that would be the Asch conformity study.

conniptionfit @ 78

mulligatawny @ 71

I recently came across Ron Paul, Repub:

We won’t solve the problems in Iraq until we confront our failed policy of foreign interventionism.”

Be exceedingly careful of assuming that one concurring opinion doth a kindred spirit make. You should check out some of the OTHER opinions this guy holds. Scary.

Am aware of that, but does the “they are all bad” attitude help? He spelled out the reasons for Iraq/Iran, the ones which are not reported in media: amongst them, dollar hegemony and the money system. And this is an underlying factor which democrats cannot escape.

http://video.google.com/videop…..mp;q=money masters

Valley Girl @ 80

I assume you have seen this from Zimbardo.

Redshift @ 86

masaccio @ 76

I wonder how the study got past the Institutional Review Board at Stanford.

The Milgram study is one of the major reasons there are Institutional Review Boards. I’m not sure about Zimbardo’s; it may just have caused major changes in the way they work.

A study like Zimbardo’s should have gotten have had legal consequences. This is research in the spirit of Dr. Mengele. Initially I said he should have been jailed – but I don’t much believe in jail anyway. Don’t know why I said that.

Redshift @ 98

Eli @ 85

But I do not dispute that there are Republicans who joined the party when it was still sane and responsible, who got caught up in the hysteria that I think really took off in the Newt Gingrich era.

It definitely took off then (Gingrich was the one who instructed his “troops” not to even talk to the Democrats, and to think of them not as their opponents but as their enemies), but a lot of it began with Reagan’s people.

Which reminds me of something I’ve been thinking of — Andrew Sullivan apparently has written that he’s glad the Republicans are going to crash and burn, because it will enable sane people to take control again. (I’m paraphrasing.)

However, the Republicans crashed and burned after Watergate. There were those who thought the party should disband, or change its name, if members were ever going to be elected again. The ones who came riding to the rescue and resurrected it were Reagan and his ilk, not sane, decent Republicans.

Be careful what you wish for, Mr. Sullivan.

You hit one point that was on my mind – that some Republicans have been pushing for absolute presidential power for almost 40 years.

And the other is that we can never assume that the Republicans will be permanently vanquished, because if they can survive Watergate, they can survive damn near anything. And they didn’t have the media as actively on their side back then.

The thing that scares me is that whoever gets elected next year will be inheriting a godawful mess, and if it’s a Democrat, you can be sure that the media and the Republicans will hold them responsible for everything that blows up, literally or figuratively, allowing the next Reagan to ride to the rescue in 2012.

conniptionfit @
64

Come the Revolution, Brother… Look, no kidding, are they, could they seriously be setting us up for a military coup? Am I crazed here, to have this sneaking concern that we may really be looking at the 2nd American Revolution in the next 20 years?

I’m pretty much a non-violent/pacifist but would not be surprised. It seems we may have been a bit premature in condemning the Timothy McVeighs and all the other survivalists. It just seems a little weird to be saying this as a leftist/progressive/liberal. Especially after hearing all the reich wongers complaining about it for years and years.

Pachacutec @ 99

Excellent post.

Whew! I figured if anyone was going to call me on being full of crap on a psych post, it would be you…

Renee in Ohio @ 100

I think this was a study about a group deciding that 2 2=5,

Wonder if that would be the Asch conformity study.

That sounds a lot like the one I was thinking of.

ok kiddo at 66

What I really, really like, is when my Siamese walks across my keyboard. Of course she knows full well I won’t get angry. Since she’s the boss and will deprive me of her company, and then I will become katatonic. ;0)

yes, that’s it………one out and one in, storm coming, dog barking at non-existent people in driveway………sh’es scared of thunder, causing commotion. and i had typed a revealing post last thread for ls, and was makin sure ls got it, dial-up slow as hell and not cooperating when i realized i typed it wrong number, so was a little raw anyway…….geezzzzzzze…………i love ‘em. all are in now and storm coming, gentle rain now………all is calm all is bright…….

From that prisonexp.org link, the part I can’t read to my students without choking up a bit.

As soon as I realized that #819 could hear the chanting, I raced back to the room where I had left him, and what I found was a boy sobbing uncontrollably while in the background his fellow prisoners were yelling that he was a bad prisoner. No longer was the chanting disorganized and full of fun, as it had been on the first day. Now it was marked by utter confomity and compliance, as if a single voice was saying, “#819 is bad.”

I suggested we leave, but he refused. Through his tears, he said he could not leave because the others had labeled him a bad prisoner. Even though he was feeling sick, he wanted to go back and prove he was not a bad prisoner.

At that point I said, “Listen, you are not #819. You are [his name], and my name is Dr. Zimbardo. I am a psychologist, not a prison superintendent, and this is not a real prison. This is just an experiment, and those are students, not prisoners, just like you. Let’s go.”

He stopped crying suddenly, looked up at me like a small child awakened from a nightmare, and replied, “Okay, let’s go.”

Think the prez is ‘getting-off’ on this?

NAIROBI, Kenya – CIA and FBI agents hunting for al-Qaida militants in the Horn of Africa have been interrogating terrorism suspects from 19 countries held at secret prisons in Ethiopia, which is notorious for torture and abuse, according to an investigation by The Associated Press.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17935971/

Renee in Ohio @ 102

I think this was a study about a group deciding that 2 2=5,

Wonder if that would be the Asch conformity study.

WOW! Thank you for that link. I’m not sure if it is the study that my friend told me about, but the one you linked to is incredibly interesting! THANKS!

struck by this- “Asch’s experiment only tested behavioral acquiescence and not attitude change.”

Mrs. K8 @ 50

There are Dominionist-type pseudo-Christians who believe that lying (they would put it in quotes, “lying”) is A-OK if they do it “in the name of the Lord.”

Of course, this is flat-out heresy, not that they care. They are cult members, and they have taken control of every Federal agency, placed there by Dear Leader to harrass and hound out of service as many real public servants as possible.

Here’s a good and very scary dKos diary about precisely this matter, the frightening prospect of what will happen when push comes to shove with these cult members:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/4/2/121745/4467

They have lots in common with the PNAC fans of Leo Strauss, who also believe it’s perfectly reasonable for the elites to lie to the “commoners,” the serfs such as we.

These folks joined forces. Why, I’m sure they lie TO EACH OTHER about their motivations, for example the PNAC crowd is perfectly happy to tell the fundie Dominionists that they too are “Christian” if it’ll get them the support they want in the form of zealots to act as legionnaires for Dear Leader.

They are extraordinarily dangerous. They are in every way just as scary (and just as devoted to “democracy”) as Stalinists.

What do we do about them? Other than push them into the “klieg lights,” that is…

dKos not to be missed if you didn’t alread read it! Thanks Mrs.K8

Renee in Ohio @ 109

From that prisonexp.org link, the part I can’t read to my students without choking up a bit.

If you watch that video excerpt I posted all the way to the end, there’s a very awkward conversation between one of the former guards and one of the former prisoners two months later.

The prisoner is basically telling the guard, “Look, I know you’re a nice guy, but now I also know what you’re capable of.” The guard asks the prisoner what *he* would have done, and he admits that he has no idea.

To push the “impunity” timeline Eli’s post addresses even further back, I just came across this eye-opening account from a couple of weeks ago, about E. Howard Hunt, his oldest son, and the son’s account of Hunt’s sickbed version of the murder of President Kennedy. It’s a very well-written article:

http://www.rollingstone.com/po…..ward_hunt/

E. Howard scribbled the initials “LBJ,” standing for Kennedy’s ambitious vice president, Lyndon Johnson. Under “LBJ,” connected by a line, he wrote the name Cord Meyer. Meyer was a CIA agent whose wife had an affair with JFK; later she was murdered, a case that’s never been solved. Next his father connected to Meyer’s name the name Bill Harvey, another CIA agent; also connected to Meyer’s name was the name David Morales, yet another CIA man and a well-known, particularly vicious black-op specialist. And then his father connected to Morales’ name, with a line, the framed words “French Gunman Grassy Knoll.”

So there it was, according to E. Howard Hunt. LBJ had Kennedy killed. It had long been speculated upon. But now E. Howard was saying that’s the way it was. And that Lee Harvey Oswald wasn’t the only shooter in Dallas. There was also, on the grassy knoll, a French gunman, presumably the Corsican Mafia assassin Lucien Sarti, who has figured prominently in other assassination theories.

I don’t think the true perpetrators of that horrific crime were ever brought to account, either.

Eli,
I think I saw this documentary on teevee.Iknow first hand from growing up in foster homes how this sort of thing can happen. One of the foster homes was from my church. They had a placement program back in the 70’s for Navaho Indians. No I am not a native, but I was tossed in the mix. There was a procedure for processing the children when they were placed. They would come into the homes afer delousing etc. I skipped that part of it since I am a blueblood. But unfortunatly not the part of the stigma. I didn’t even realize it until years later. The clincher was my foster parents were both Xcops.Infact the mother was a matron at a county facility. There were 5 other children, a native and the families own 4 children. We all had our roles to play as depicted in the documentary. I was there for 3 years. By the time I left I was sleeping in the garage on a mattress as they collected my social security from my deceased parents. I was the housekeeper babysitter etc.
I could keep going but I think you get the point, everyone played their roles. Oh, and I was always treated as less than at church even though I wasn’t a native (heathen)

love your post,

lolo

pluege @ 44

“I admit that I’m going out on a limb with the decent-Republicans claim, but I do know several Republicans who are very nice, so it should theoretically be possible.”

there are decent people that claim to be republicans. But these are strictly the disengaged person who has no idea what it means to be today’s republican – they, at some point early in their life decided they were repuiblican and never learned enough about what that means to change. Anyone and everyone that knows what it means to be a republican really is an awful person to be kept away from power and otherwise avoided.
.
.

I know a good Republican from a small town in northern California where he was active in local politics and his wife was a member of the city council. Good people, voted for Bush both times. But they have qualms. Their town was taken over by a billionaire — swift boater who gave $200,000 to unseat Daschle in 2002. He has decided that it’s his life goal to remake the town. All for the best, you know, but the underlying basis is — I have the money and I can do what the f*ck I want in this town. And this pisses off the older establishment. I have been trying to tell my acquaintance that this is the Bush administration.

Renee in Ohio @ 111: “Listen, you are not #819. You are [his name], and my name is Dr. Zimbardo. I am a psychologist, not a prison superintendent, and this is not a real prison. This is just an experiment, and those are students, not prisoners, just like you. Let’s go.”

OK, who do we get to tell this to G.W.Bush?

Oklahoma kiddo @ 38

I may stand alone here on this. But I like Rosie O’Donnell, and what this woman has to say.

Personally, I don’t watch much TV, and no daytime, so what she has to say is of no interest to me. I was hearing the talking heads on MSGOP yammering about her today, though, and it just seems to me that they’ve discovered the downside of their underregulated, ratings-driven commercial media. O’Donnell is worse than a Rush Limbaugh or a Bill O’Reilly, but wingnuts only like demagogues who agree with them. I say, sauce for the goose.

This maybe OT but my thanks to FDL for bringing me the chance to say ‘Keep Moving Foward Toward Citizen Journalism’

lolo @ 114

Eli,
I think I saw this documentary on teevee.Iknow first hand from growing up in foster homes how this sort of thing can happen. One of the foster homes was from my church. They had a placement program back in the 70’s for Navaho Indians. No I am not a native, but I was tossed in the mix. There was a procedure for processing the children when they were placed. They would come into the homes afer delousing etc. I skipped that part of it since I am a blueblood. But unfortunatly not the part of the stigma. I didn’t even realize it until years later. The clincher was my foster parents were both Xcops.Infact the mother was a matron at a county facility. There were 5 other children, a native and the families own 4 children. We all had our roles to play as depicted in the documentary. I was there for 3 years. By the time I left I was sleeping in the garage on a mattress as they collected my social security from my deceased parents. I was the housekeeper babysitter etc.
I could keep going but I think you get the point, everyone played their roles. Oh, and I was always treated as less than at church even though I wasn’t a native (heathen)

Jeez, lolo, that’s awful. I think children can be very vulnerable to this sort of treatment because they’re so powerless, and completely unmonitored within the home. But they’re also subject to it at school, where there’s always unmonitored space for bullying to occur against the weak and unfavored.

Eli at #106. We share the same nightmare. The reaction is not going to go away unless we stick a stake through its heart. And that means after 2008, the first order of business in 2009 are hearings and prosecutions, to push that slime down into a hole so deep it will take a generation to come back.

And believe me, they will be back.

conniptionfit @ 70

Yeah, ok, I can’t decide if it’s time for another beer, or if it’s time for the wagon to come pick me up… any opinions?

What wagon?

My conclusion from this experiment was not that good people can do bad things in a bad situation. Rather, it was that good people should not be put in a bad situation with no training and no oversight. The difference is subtle but significant.

lolo- I am so moved by your story. I will continue to reflect on it, and to wonder where your strength has come from.

EvilDrPuma @ 119

Oklahoma kiddo @ 38

I may stand alone here on this. But I like Rosie O’Donnell, and what this woman has to say.

Personally, I don’t watch much TV, and no daytime, so what she has to say is of no interest to me. I was hearing the talking heads on MSGOP yammering about her today, though, and it just seems to me that they’ve discovered the downside of their underregulated, ratings-driven commercial media. O’Donnell is worse than a Rush Limbaugh or a Bill O’Reilly, but wingnuts only like demagogues who agree with them. I say, sauce for the goose.

I meant to write, “O’Donnell is no worse….” Small difference in meaning there. Sorry.

Knut Wicksell @ 120

Eli at #106. We share the same nightmare. The reaction is not going to go away unless we stick a stake through its heart. And that means after 2008, the first order of business in 2009 are hearings and prosecutions, to push that slime down into a hole so deep it will take a generation to come back.

And believe me, they will be back.

The best we can hope for is to keep *today’s* slime from coming back, like the Watergate slime came back. But there will always be *new* slime, with no obviously visible connections to the old slime.

We need to discredit the Republican Party itself as corrupt by nature, not just the individuals who inhabit it at this particular moment, and I’m not sure if we’ll be able to do it. This may be our best chance, though. Or at least they’ll have to wander the wilderness until the new generation is ready.

Frank Probst @ 124

My conclusion from this experiment was not that good people can do bad things in a bad situation. Rather, it was that good people should not be put in a bad situation with no training and no oversight. The difference is subtle but significant.

Actually, and thanks for raising this, I think both are true. Not either/or. But both.

Uh…..Mengele anyone? The drink, of course.

Frank Probst @ 122

My conclusion from this experiment was not that good people can do bad things in a bad situation. Rather, it was that good people should not be put in a bad situation with no training and no oversight. The difference is subtle but significant.

Descriptive vs. proscriptive?

Go Rosie!!

Valley Girl @ 126

Actually, and thanks for raising this, I think both are true. Not either/or. But both.

The second is true because of the first.

Although one difference is that not all good people are turned evil by being in a bad situation – but they can be seriously fucked up and made miserable. Or they can have the evil turned upon them if they try to make a stand, as happened to Joe Darby.

Frank Probst @ 124

My conclusion from this experiment was not that good people can do bad things in a bad situation. Rather, it was that good people should not be put in a bad situation with no training and no oversight. The difference is subtle but significant.

Thanks. You found the perfect words for what I was trying – and failing – to say.

Of course, Dubya pretty much has no training or oversight. But he was never a good person.

Fern @ 105

Redshift @ 86

masaccio @ 76

I wonder how the study got past the Institutional Review Board at Stanford.

The Milgram study is one of the major reasons there are Institutional Review Boards. I’m not sure about Zimbardo’s; it may just have caused major changes in the way they work.

A study like Zimbardo’s should have gotten have had legal consequences. This is research in the spirit of Dr. Mengele. Initially I said he should have been jailed – but I don’t much believe in jail anyway. Don’t know why I said that.

Psychology Professor Emeritus Zimbardo was on Democracy Now last week.

He said he stopped the “experiment” when his then girlfriend (psychologist in training, IIRC) threatened to dump him.

He stopped the study on the spot.

He didn’t stop for morals.

He stopped for pussy.

In the last months I’ve listened to American Psychological Association honchos assure us:

it was really OK for psychologists to help the Guantanamo torturers – as long they weren’t torturing their own patients.

Nice ethics ya got there, American Psychological Association.

Myself, I’ll stick with Hippocrates:

I will follow that system of regimen which, according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of my patients, and abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous.

I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor suggest any such counsel…. With purity and with holiness I will pass my life and practice my Art…..

Into whatever houses I enter, I will go into them for the benefit of the sick, and will abstain from every voluntary act of mischief and corruption; and, further from the seduction of females or males, of freemen and slaves.

Whatever, in connection with my professional practice or not, in connection with it, I see or hear, in the life of men, which ought not to be spoken of abroad, I will not divulge, as reckoning that all such should be kept secret.

While I continue to keep this Oath unviolated, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and the practice of the Art, respected by all men, in all times. But should I trespass and violate this Oath, may the reverse be my lot.

__________________________________________

[*s - I don’t think I’ve used the *ussy word at the Lake before, and I don’t intend to use it again.

Should any really wish, I can *ost a long comment describing my conscious choice to use a misogynistic term in a visceral descri*tion of “*ower-over”.

Or, maybe the read would be rather turgid…]

JR @ 95

livetoad @ 19

I’m certainly not going to argue that the Republicans were all well-meaning humanitarians before Bush took power, but there used to be some decent ones.

… Where are such republicans these days? or that matter, is it clear that a majority of DC dems are of this ilk?

The media is such a powerful force that keeps repeating the message that “America is the land of the free” that here we can all be individuals. The reality is of course that we are thoroughly homogenized. How many people actually think for themselves and are willing to take a reasoned and principled�stand. Just look at all of the sheep we have in Congress.

Also, it’s a generational thing. There are fewer and fewer of the decent ones because they’re retiring and none of the up-and-coming ones are that type.

This is reflected in situations like the Virginia legislature, where a majority of the State Senate is populated by relatively decent Republicans who are willing to make compromises in the service of good government, and the younger House of Delegates is populated by right-wing nutjobs who are adamantly opposed to any and all taxes, are obsessed with sex and immigrants, and so on.

With a number of senior Republicans in the Senate retiring this year, it could go over to the nutjobs, too. However, the silver lining is that arguably, this is accelerating the trend back to Democratic control. I just hope we survive until then.

From the Daily Show interview

Zimbardo: None of these things happen–in the Stanford Prison study, I draw the parallels of Abu Ghraib, which are identical. I mean, the things that happened in our study all happened at night shift. The worst things that happened at Abu Ghraib were on night shift where there was no supervision and no oversight. You want to eliminate evil in institutions, you have to have strong oversight. You have to have leadership that says, “This is what we will do, this is what you can’t do. We will do no harm, and if you do harm, here’s what’s going to happen. You’re going to get in trouble, you’re going to lose your job.

Usually in situations like that, the leadership backs off–they let you do whatever you want. In Abu Ghraib, those abuses went on for three months–who was watching the store?

Stewart: So you’re saying they should have stopped Abu Ghraib after 36 hours.

Zimbardo: And the same thing with the war we’re in–maybe 48 hours.

Eli,

I appreciate your considered response. However: “I admit to having a hard time imagining Republicans starting out virtuous – Rove and Dubya have been creeps their entire adult lives, but others don’t have the same track record.” I don’t mean to invite (nearly) infinite regress, but one wonders why Rove & George do what they do … were they *at any time* “good people” who became creeps by virtue of “bad” surroundings? My point is this: one has to put “good” and “bad” in quotes, because it turns on one’s (however acquired) point of view. I am not taking the Relativist point of view … there IS A GIANT PROBLEM staring us down. But the problem is systemic. The System, as currently applied, is failing. I hope this is what the good people of FDL conclude, and that pointed attacks against individuals who occupy stations within the System have the higher purpose of bettering the whole thing more generally.

Anyways, Fight and Win. -Bogey

Eli @ 121

lolo @ 114

Eli,
I think I saw this documentary on teevee.Iknow first hand from growing up in foster homes how this sort of thing can happen. One of the foster homes was from my church. They had a placement program back in the 70’s for Navaho Indians. No I am not a native, but I was tossed in the mix. There was a procedure for processing the children when they were placed. They would come into the homes afer delousing etc. I skipped that part of it since I am a blueblood. But unfortunatly not the part of the stigma. I didn’t even realize it until years later. The clincher was my foster parents were both Xcops.Infact the mother was a matron at a county facility. There were 5 other children, a native and the families own 4 children. We all had our roles to play as depicted in the documentary. I was there for 3 years. By the time I left I was sleeping in the garage on a mattress as they collected my social security from my deceased parents. I was the housekeeper babysitter etc.
I could keep going but I think you get the point, everyone played their roles. Oh, and I was always treated as less than at church even though I wasn’t a native (heathen)

Jeez, lolo, that’s awful. I think children can be very vulnerable to this sort of treatment because they’re so powerless, and completely unmonitored within the home. But they’re also subject to it at school, where there’s always unmonitored space for bullying to occur against the weak and unfavored.

Eventually I started acting out. I figured why not. They took away what was left of my self esteem. I endured years of torment previous to that living with relatives. By the time I was at that foster home I was already a rape and incest survivor. It was demoralizing especially when prevously I found church one of the only safe places. When my relatives decided to dump me my belief in God was really strong. Through my life that was my constant oasis. They couldn’t take it away from me. No one can. They can only be the evil hypocrites not me.

New Zealand, Egregious?

egregious @ 92

melfeasance @ 74

Eli @ 58: I firmly believe that nuking someone is on Dubya’s list of Cool Presidential Things To Do Before Leaving Office.

Poppy went on record some years ago saying he believes we can survive a nuclear attack.

In addition to Paraguay they have developed an enormous compound in N.Z.

I’ve been putting those together too.

Bogey @ 137

Eli,

I appreciate your considered response. However: “I admit to having a hard time imagining Republicans starting out virtuous – Rove and Dubya have been creeps their entire adult lives, but others don’t have the same track record.” I don’t mean to invite (nearly) infinite regress, but one wonders why Rove & George do what they do … were they *at any time* “good people” who became creeps by virtue of “bad” surroundings? My point is this: one has to put “good” and “bad” in quotes, because it turns on one’s (however acquired) point of view. I am not taking the Relativist point of view … there IS A GIANT PROBLEM staring us down. But the problem is systemic. The System, as currently applied, is failing. I hope this is what the good people of FDL conclude, and that pointed attacks against individuals who occupy stations within the System have the higher purpose of bettering the whole thing more generally.

Anyways, Fight and Win. -Bogey

Bogey, I really can’t explain Rove very well – it sounded like he had a decent enough family, so either he was simply a prick (this *is* a possibility), or perhaps he just fell in love with the College Republican lifestyle, or there was something else in between that I’m not aware of.

Dubya probably never had a chance to become a decent person, with the upbringing and situation he was born into, where everything was handed to him, and he never had to pay the price for a mistake. Becoming a spoiled, entitled jerk was inevitable.

As for your People Vs. System point, it’s well taken, but (and this was something I had to leave out of the post) there’s kind of a neverending feedback loop where the system makes the people in it more evil, which then impels them to make the system even more broken and corrupt.

But if you’ve been following my earlier Tuesday posts, you would see that I am *very* concerned about the system that has bestowed impunity on the Republicans for so long. Specifically, the ways in which the institutions of Media, Elections, and Judiciary have all been rigged in the Republicans’ favor… by the Republicans.

Somewhat relevant to the content of Eli’s OP, it’s worth remembering that Zimbardo’s “experiment” wasn’t just unethical. It also suffered from major methodological flaws. The exercise did demonstrate that the “guards” wound up developing a knack for cruelty, but that was after Zimbardo and his research assistant took up roles as the director and warden of the prison, “training” the guards and instructing them on “denying the prisoners their identity” and other fun things that confound the experiment.

Check out the Haslam-Reicher prison experiment (and the paper Haslam and Reicher published on it, if you have a subscription to one of the relevant databases). They got some really different results when they revisited Zimbardo.

lolo @ 116

Eli,
I think I saw this documentary on teevee.Iknow first hand from growing up in foster homes how this sort of thing can happen. One of the foster homes was from my church. They had a placement program back in the 70’s for Navaho Indians. No I am not a native, but I was tossed in the mix. There was a procedure for processing the children when they were placed. They would come into the homes afer delousing etc. I skipped that part of it since I am a blueblood. But unfortunatly not the part of the stigma. I didn’t even realize it until years later. The clincher was my foster parents were both Xcops.Infact the mother was a matron at a county facility. There were 5 other children, a native and the families own 4 children. We all had our roles to play as depicted in the documentary. I was there for 3 years. By the time I left I was sleeping in the garage on a mattress as they collected my social security from my deceased parents. I was the housekeeper babysitter etc.
I could keep going but I think you get the point, everyone played their roles. Oh, and I was always treated as less than at church even though I wasn’t a native (heathen)

love your post,

lolo

{{{{{{lolo}}}}}}

Demahir @ 142

Somewhat relevant to the content of Eli’s OP, it’s worth remembering that Zimbardo’s “experiment” wasn’t just unethical. It also suffered from major methodological flaws. The exercise did demonstrate that the “guards” wound up developing a knack for cruelty, but that was after Zimbardo and his research assistant took up roles as the director and warden of the prison, “training” the guards and instructing them on “denying the prisoners their identity” and other fun things that confound the experiment.

Check out the Haslam-Reicher prison experiment (and the paper Haslam and Reicher published on it, if you have a subscription to one of the relevant databases). They got some really different results when they revisited Zimbardo.

I think that’s more than just somewhat relevant. Can you elaborate on the Haslam-Reicher results a little?

Redshift @ 138

JR @ 95

livetoad @ 19

… Where are such republicans these days? or that matter, is it clear that a majority of DC dems are of this ilk?

Also, it’s a generational thing. There are fewer and fewer of the decent ones because they’re retiring and none of the up-and-coming ones are that type.

With a number of senior Republicans in the Senate retiring this year, it could go over to the nutjobs, too. However, the silver lining is that arguably, this is accelerating the trend back to Democratic control. I just hope we survive until then.

But what does that say for us as a society. If the older decent ones are disappearing and being replaced by nutjobs who will say anything to get elected and sell out the public to retain office, how to we actually break the cycle?

That said, maybe the point here is that whatever Zimbardo’s methodological flaws, the same things that got stuff so out of hand in his “experiment” may have been present abu ghraib — lack of training, insecurity of the torturers, tolerance of and/or expectation of torture by those in charge of the torturers, etc.

JR @ 145

But what does that say for us as a society. If the older decent ones are disappearing and being replaced by nutjobs who will say anything to get elected and sell out the public to retain office, how to we actually break the cycle?

We have to establish that this is endemic to Republicans. Between the Bush administration and Watergate, I think it should be easier to establish a pattern. And Iran-Contra could start to look more significant in retrospect – yet another data point of Republican lawlessness.

Demahir @ 146

That said, maybe the point here is that whatever Zimbardo’s methodological flaws, the same things that got stuff so out of hand in his “experiment” may have been present abu ghraib — lack of training, insecurity of the torturers, tolerance of and/or expectation of torture by those in charge of the torturers, etc.

I’m kind of surprised that no-one has brought up “Lord Of The Flies” yet…

For those who get Sundance Channel, keep your eyes peeled for a one-hour documentary they’ve been running, Human Behavior Experiments. It includes interviews with Dr. Zimbardo and one of the Stanford Prison Experiment “guards.” Very eye opening stuff. Even those conducting the experiment including Dr. Zimbardo lost perspective on what was happening. Even on such a small scale absolute power can be that intoxicating. As mentioned above, it was only after his then-girlfriend visited, was brought to tears by what she saw and questioned what she ever saw in Zimbardo if he was so blind as to how far out of control this had spiraled.

Human Behavior Experiments was Directed by Alex Gibney (Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room). This film also profiled The Milgram Experiment (1961-1962) which explored how people blindly obeyed authority even when told to inflict seemingly lethal pain on other experimental subjects i.e. Nazi Germany. 1969’s The Columbia Experiments studied the phenomenon of “diffusion of responsibility,” the idea that the more people there are to witness an event, the less responsibility any one individual feels to assist. The Columbia Experiments were prompted by Kitty Genovese’s 1964 murder in Queens, N.Y., witnessed by 38 people none of whom called the police.

Powerful stuff.

AF

Well, without going into painful detail, I can toss this link.

And you could watch it, the whole thing was made into a four-part miniseries, your town or county library system probably has a copy.

The short version is that in Haslam and Reicher’s study, the prisoners developed a group identity (partially by manipulation of the experimenters, partially just because that’s how it happened) and were able to overwhelm their guards psychologically. As Zimbardo is quick to point out, though, there were strong controls against violence in the experiment that were not present in Zimbardo’s, since the whole thing was on hundreds of cameras in a BBC studio rebuilt as a prison.

But the results suggest that depending on circumstances, a prison may not turn guards automatically into brutes and automotically intimidate prisoners. Zimbardo’s result depends upon the extreme lack of accountability among the guards in his model, and maybe (again, because of the way Zimbardo ran his experiment, we can’t be sure) because of the fact that Zimbardo TOLD his guards not just to be firm, but to be nasty.

I haven’t nearly done it justice, but that’s something to get ya started. =D

may @ 84

Slothrop @ 21

Sorry, but I don’t see the link between boredom and evil actions.

Tibetan Buddhist monks meditate for the greater part of the day — as boring as it gets — and they’re gentle, kind and peaceful.

sorry but meditating all day is an excersize in fully aware self dicipline.if you are bored you are not meditating.you are just sitting there.

It reminds me of the old saying ‘idle hands are the devil’s playground’ – if you’re bored, with nothing to do, trouble will follow.

Eli @ 150

JR @ 145

But what does that say for us as a society. If the older decent ones are disappearing and being replaced by nutjobs who will say anything to get elected and sell out the public to retain office, how to we actually break the cycle?

We have to establish that this is endemic to Republicans. Between the Bush administration and Watergate, I think it should be easier to establish a pattern. And Iran-Contra could start to look more significant in retrospect – yet another data point of Republican lawlessness.

Eli
I don’t think that will work. Americans have little historical memory and the MSM is not going to help by providing any sort of meaningful perspective. Americans quickly forgot about the abuses of Nixon and they will do the same for Bush.

Eli @ 151

Demahir @ 146

That said, maybe the point here is that whatever Zimbardo’s methodological flaws, the same things that got stuff so out of hand in his “experiment” may have been present abu ghraib — lack of training, insecurity of the torturers, tolerance of and/or expectation of torture by those in charge of the torturers, etc.

I’m kind of surprised that no-one has brought up “Lord Of The Flies” yet…

That is it and we all know who the leader is ……….any guesses?

Eli,

This is fun. I’ve never commented before, and again I am grateful for your thoughtful response. I think the most forceful argument you make concerns the feedback loop that power generates, and addressing this process should always be part of our tactical advances. Let’s remember these lessons when the pendulum swings our way.

Also, Dernahir makes a great point: Zimbardo’s (and Milgram’s) famous experiments are single data points in their fashion, and let’s only take from them what’s reasonable. The Big Experiment is still in progress.

Still, Fight & Win, you guys :)

I really don’t understand how this passed IRB at Stanford. The guiding principle is:

“… to protect all human research participants by ensuring that in all STANFORD research:
* The rights and welfare of human research participants will be adequately protected.
* Such research will be guided by the ethical principles of respect for persons, beneficence, and justice as set forth in the Belmont Report, and will be conducted with the highest level of expertise and integrity.” Link.

Judging by the reactions of the subjects, and even the investigator, this expeirment fails to meet the tests.

masaccio @ 158

I really don’t understand how this passed IRB at Stanford. The guiding principle is:

“… to protect all human research participants by ensuring that in all STANFORD research:
* The rights and welfare of human research participants will be adequately protected.
* Such research will be guided by the ethical principles of respect for persons, beneficence, and justice as set forth in the Belmont Report, and will be conducted with the highest level of expertise and integrity.” Link.

Judging by the reactions of the subjects, and even the investigator, this expeirment fails to meet the tests.

I would guess that there wasn’t an IRB at that time.

Renee in Ohio @
96

Zimbardo was on the Daily Show last week. I posted the transcript here.

here’s the video of Philip Zimbardo’s interview:
http://www.comedycentral.com/m…..ideo=84518

These aren’t single data points. They are evidence of how easy it is to slide into barbaric behavior when restraints are removed. They are completely consistent with historical practices and reflect how the Nazis could make it into such a common occurrence.

Anacher Forester @
152

This film also profiled The Milgram Experiment (1961-1962) which explored how people blindly obeyed authority even when told to inflict seemingly lethal pain on other experimental subjects i.e. Nazi Germany. 1969’s The Columbia Experiments studied the phenomenon of “diffusion of responsibility,” the idea that the more people there are to witness an event, the less responsibility any one individual feels to assist. The Columbia Experiments were prompted by Kitty Genovese’s 1964 murder in Queens, N.Y., witnessed by 38 people none of whom called the police.

Powerful stuff.

AF

Couple quick things…

That’s a great list of things people should look into if they’re interested in this angle of psychology following the reference to Zimbardo here.

About Milgram: the fun fact here, and it’s only a small quibble, is that it wasn’t “blind”…they got nervous, they shook, they giggled awkwardly and sweated…but they still obeyed. The paper Milgram published following that study recounts how many people had tics or extreme anxiety during or after the experiment, but they still obeyed. To me, that was the creepiest part.

About Kitty Genovese: they even figured out math equations governing diffusion of responsibility. As in, for each additional witness, they can tell you how less likely it makes you to intervene. Actual equations. Ain’t statistics creepy. The papers on this one were mostly written by Darley (John?) and Bibb Latane. Really readable, not psychobabble.

TRex and more egregious fuckery upstairs

Thanks, Demahir! I’m working my way through it now.

JR @ 152

I don’t think that will work. Americans have little historical memory and the MSM is not going to help by providing any sort of meaningful perspective. Americans quickly forgot about the abuses of Nixon and they will do the same for Bush.

I suspect you’re right; especially since I think many people use the media *as* their historical memory. Still, it can’t hurt for Democrats to remind people that there’s a pattern of Republican behavior.

Bogey @ 154

Eli,

This is fun. I’ve never commented before, and again I am grateful for your thoughtful response. I think the most forceful argument you make concerns the feedback loop that power generates, and addressing this process should always be part of our tactical advances. Let’s remember these lessons when the pendulum swings our way.

Also, Dernahir makes a great point: Zimbardo’s (and Milgram’s) famous experiments are single data points in their fashion, and let’s only take from them what’s reasonable. The Big Experiment is still in progress.

Welcome to the comments, Bogey! It can be addictive. I think the biggest opportunity for reform will be if/when we have a Democratic president *and* Congress, as the Republicans will suddenly be very concerned about limiting the powers of the president and the majority party. The trick will be to design reforms that can’t be swept away when the Republicans take power again.

I think the media’s going to be a tough nut to crack, though. I think our best shot is to discredit them, or at least get them so close to the brink as to scare them straight.

I’m not so sure it isn’t endemic more to regions of the country, than to a particular political party… My #116 comment (thanks Mod) about the new allegations (from E. Howard Hunt’s son) about LBJ, would place a Texas Democrat in the very midst of the ’system’ and the cycle. The reason regions of the country might concentrate such behavior in differing degrees, may be because of the way the people in different regions treat each other, and are allowed to treat each other by their local and state governments – whether due to ethnic background and culture or to other factors.

However, the endpoint these days may well be overwhelmingly that only a “welcome” in the Republican Party is provided for these types, because of the people now wielding its power at the top. Doesn’t mean Democrats – especially the party that catered to the nation’s racist legacy – didn’t formerly put out a quiet welcome mat to such types too.

Frank Probst @ 159

masaccio @ 158

I really don’t understand how this passed IRB at Stanford. The guiding principle is:

“… to protect all human research participants by ensuring that in all STANFORD research:
* The rights and welfare of human research participants will be adequately protected.
* Such research will be guided by the ethical principles of respect for persons, beneficence, and justice as set forth in the Belmont Report, and will be conducted with the highest level of expertise and integrity.” Link.

Judging by the reactions of the subjects, and even the investigator, this expeirment fails to meet the tests.

I would guess that there wasn’t an IRB at that time.

It didn’t pass. Zimbardo actually ran it in a sub-basement somewhere…maybe even off-the-books. And the journal he published in was not really well-known, IIRC…I think it just made such a big splash they sighed, said “never again”, and patted him on the back.

OT – Ah, shoot…

The Daily Show is a rerun. It’s Passover and Jon Stewart is Jewish. Doh

Back to your regularly scheduled programing…

Frank Probst @ 159

I see that you may be right. The experiment is from 1971. I know there was a form of this board at most universities by the mid-70s, as my wife chaired the committee (which had a different name) at a large research university in that time frame but I cannot verify that Stanford had one in 1971.

yellowdog jim @ 159

Renee in Ohio @
96

Zimbardo was on the Daily Show last week. I posted the transcript here.

here’s the video of Philip Zimbardo’s interview:
http://www.comedycentral.com/m…..ideo=84518

Read the transcript and found it a little chilling. He’s playing it for laughs. And made a cute little effort to bully the interviewer.

Damahir @ 165: It didn’t pass.

No, the review board didn’t exist then. The SPE is the reason they were created.

localroger @
170

Damahir @ 165: It didn’t pass.

No, the review board didn’t exist then. The SPE is the reason they were created.

Thanks for that, I was actually in the process of trying to track those factoids down =P

My bad =D

Eli,

“I think the media’s going to be a tough nut to crack, though. I think our best shot is to discredit them, or at least get them so close to the brink as to scare them straight.”

Tell you what: You *are* the media.

See you next post.

Bogey @ 169

Tell you what: You *are* the media.

See you next post.

Oh, would that it were so…

Nice meeting you, Bogey!

I remember the first day of a social psychology class I took as an undergrad with Dr. Dan Gilbert (last I heard he was teaching at Harvard) when his opening remark was “people don’t know why they do the things they do.” Apart from Dan being a gifted teacher and researcher, the material covered was eye popping. I recall covering the Stanford prison experiment and the shock experiment among many other classic experiments in human social behavior.

Something I said here a couple weeks ago about evil, antichrists and such: unthinkable predicaments like the one we find ourselves in today are not so much a result of the acts of uncommon individuals under normal circumstances as they are the acts of normal individuals in uncommon circumstances.

Human nature and the unconscious are a formidable force. Incredibly, the Founding Fathers predated the landmark insights of the likes of Sigmund Freud into the hidden workings of the mind and human nature, yet created a system of checks and balances for government which revealed a brilliant understanding of the tendencies of all individuals -even those with ‘the best intentions’.

JR @ 148

But what does that say for us as a society. If the older decent ones are disappearing and being replaced by nutjobs who will say anything to get elected and sell out the public to retain office, how to we actually break the cycle?

The saving grace seems to be that people in most districts don’t actual want wingnuts as their reps. The wingnuts are absolutely convinced that the people agree with their opposition to taxes above all else. The people they can turn out to vote in Republican primaries do, frequently, but as a result, they nominate replacements for moderate Republicans that cause moderate Republican voters to vote for the Democrat.

If the Democrats take control, I suspect that many of the districts that are Republican enough to have elected wingnuts when they didn’t have to compromise will begin to see the benefit of electing ones who understand the concept.

Eli, you made a great point about “no historical memory”. That has occurred to me. It is almost science fiction in their calculation to wait until the previous generations “forgot” about what had transpired in the past in order to pounce and reprogram the younger “subjects”. I, for one, straddle the generations. I remember full well the Cuban Crisis, the JFK assassination, the murders of Martin Luthur King, Robert F. Kennedy, John Lennon, the culture of San Francisco, etc., the change seemed to occur when “our” inspirational messages were deleted by nature or “whatever” – others such as; Buddy Holliday, Marilyn Monroe, Diana Dorrs, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Malcolm X, Lynard Skynard, Brian Jones, John Lennon; a succession of sadness…..Help me out, this is just a short off-the-cuff list…you can add Strawberry, Tyson, Michael Jackson; all defamed – maybe some for good reason, I don’t know.
Eliminated…by what…why? The good news is that the youngsters listen to the recorded messages of the past. There is hope.

LS @ 173

Eli, you made a great point about “no historical memory”. That has occurred to me. It is almost science fiction in their calculation to wait until the previous generations “forgot” about what had transpired in the past in order to pounce and reprogram the younger “subjects”. I, for one, straddle the generations. I remember full well the Cuban Crisis, the JFK assassination, the murders of Martin Luthur King, Robert F. Kennedy, John Lennon, the culture of San Francisco, etc., the change seemed to occur when “our” inspirational messages were deleted by nature or “whatever” – others such as; Buddy Holliday, Marilyn Monroe, Diana Dorrs, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Malcolm X, Lynard Skynard, Brian Jones, John Lennon; a succession of sadness…..Help me out, this is just a short off-the-cuff list…you can add Strawberry, Tyson, Michael Jackson; all defamed – maybe some for good reason, I don’t know.
Eliminated…by what…why? The good news is that the youngsters listen to the recorded messages of the past. There is hope.

Generations? Hell, the Bushies have reversed field in a matter of days without getting called on it.

Eli!!??? What??? Then do what we are doing. Call them on it 24/7/365!!!!!!!

Eli,
reading this way past time
It’s really scary how easily, how quickly the breakdown occurs.

may @
84

Slothrop @ 21

Sorry, but I don’t see the link between boredom and evil actions.

Tibetan Buddhist monks meditate for the greater part of the day — as boring as it gets — and they’re gentle, kind and peaceful.

sorry but meditating all day is an excersize in fully aware self dicipline.if you are bored you are not meditating.you are just sitting there.

Not according to Mumon.
Mumon’s Zen Warnings: “To obey the rules and regulations is to tie yourself without a rope. To act freely and without restraint is heresy and deviltry. To be aware of the mind, making it pure and quiet, is the false Zen of silent illumination. To arbitrarily ignore causal relations is to fall into a deep pitfall. To abide in absolute awakening with no darkening is to wear chains with a yoke. Thinking of good and evil is being in Heaven and Hell. To have ideas about the Buddha and the Dharma is to be imprisoned inside two iron mountains. Becoming aware of consciousness at the instant it arises is toying with the mind. Practicing concentration in quiet sitting is an action of devils.”

LS @ 175

Eli!!??? What??? Then do what we are doing. Call them on it 24/7/365!!!!!!!

That’s what Media Matters does. They’re very, very good at it, and every time I read them I get pissed off.

Eli,
I came across this awhile ago and whether hard fact or not it is worth a look see in light of what you have posted.
http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass…..zewski.htm

Maddy @ 179

Eli,
I came across this awhile ago and whether hard fact or not it is worth a look see in light of what you have posted.
http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass…..zewski.htm

Working my way through it. Chilling stuff.

A most provocative post. Excellent!

[Planning for the “post-terror” era - first in an occasional series]

Eli -

As much as I love your post, I’d like to use the occasion to raise a terminology question.

Rudely.

Please forgive me.

It’s funny how the Republicans have so much trouble with “bad apples.” Like the ones who fed the President bad intel on Iraq, or the ones who leaked Valerie Plame’s identity, or the ones who took Jack Abramoff’s dirty money, or the ones who conspired to turn the Justice Department into an arm of the RNC. Of course, unlike (maybe) some of the Abu Ghraib guards, who were thrown into a rotten bucket, most of the Republican apples were pretty rotten to begin with.

…..

I’m certainly not going to argue that the Republicans were all well-meaning humanitarians before Bush took power, but there used to be some decent ones.

So my parents aren’t “decent”? My grandparents and aunts and uncles aren’t “decent”?

Who the fuck are you, eeliworm?

You never met them, punk.

Where I come from, eels are bait.

Why should I listen to you, asshole?

[ above quoted from one in a series of failed media outreach vignettes….

exam question: what went wrong with the progressives’ messaging?

extra question: could any error have been used to illustrate widely held perceptions of progressives’ contempt for religion and family?]

____________________________________

Please accept this is a rhetorical question (and no snark at Eli) -

I used a rhetorical hook to focus on our own rhetoric.

________________________________

Pups, we’re winning.

In 1943, the State Dept. was planning for liberated Europe.

We need to start planning for liberated America.

How do we plan our “post-terror” progressive society?

We define the largest possible percentage of the population as “winners” in The Great Progressive Triumph.

Up to forty percent of voters support suicidal neocons. I want those voters to support viable progressives.

Within my lifetime, Republicans who embraced progressive values began to ape the hate preachers.

We can appeal to their core progressive values – invite, not shame – and split brand “Republican” in our favor. In rural areas, we work on family and community values to build progressive success.

Or we tell them we think they’re indecent. Or maybe that anyone who believes in “Jaysus” is unfit for voting or public life.

And then we can share books about why “those Republicans” vote against what we think are their interests.

Our invective needn’t be considered, of course.

____________________________________

Again -

Eli….

I am not writing about you or your admirable values.

[I know your values are admirable: I admire ‘em!]

I am writing about the power of our words.

In speaking of Palestine, I try to be so careful to say “Israel” or “the Israeli government” as opposed to “Israelis”.

The former describes a political entity. The latter describes a cultural enitity.

Culture is food and dress and values.

Let a thousand blazers bloom!

May their golf carts ever purr… (from solar-charged fuel cells)

Blessed buffets!

I’m not against “Republicans” – they are my patients and neighbors and colleagues and loved ones.

I share many values with them…

how we progressives find the words that invite our Republican neighbors to work towards our childrens’ future?

Point taken, kirk – generally when I refer to “Republicans”, I am sacrificing precision for “flow” and referring to Republican politicians, especially in this example, since they are the ones being corrupted by our broken system.

However, an overwhelming majority (about 70%, IIRC) of Republican citizens *still* support these assholes, some of them actively (i.e., right-wing pundits & bloggers), and that cannot be overlooked. So there is some blur to the line between Republican politicians and Republican citizens.

melfeasance @
74

Eli @ 58: I firmly believe that nuking someone is on Dubya’s list of Cool Presidential Things To Do Before Leaving Office.

Poppy went on record some years ago saying he believes we can survive a nuclear attack.

As long as “the right people” survive, I guess that counts as surviving? Feh. What happened to the Republicans of yesteryear who had differing opinions but still seemed to care about America? It’s hard for me to believe they’ve all been assimilated into the Borg. I thought we were better than that.

Thanks Eli -

I was very worried my comment would read as about you (NOT)

vs about

how do we talk about this big evil thing in our Republic without turning away allies?

I despise the pundits, but they seem to be in the same “courtier culture” as the rest of DC.

The people who grew up in little towns and heard Rush and saw Pox from fifteen on..

towns where school sure never talked about “media literacy”.

No bookshop in town. Library’s in the county seat – seven dollars gas round trip.

Bookmobile’s “for kids”.

Mom and dad work – no one at home to read one on one ages two to six.

Pox and Rush tricked them into hurting their grandparents.

They’re our allies against the megacorps.

How do we reach them?

Assume (inflated, I hope?) a million right wing bloggers – 50,000 (shudder) pundits.

Still leaves a lot of allies in the zero-80% of wealth brackets.

I’m not expecting you to have the answer Eli…

(or any one persson)

I am trying to share ideas about progressives can find words to cleave the uber-wealthy from the good middle Americans deluded into subsidizing the ubers’ jets, club drugs, and sex parties.

kirk murphy @ 185

I am trying to share ideas about progressives can find words to cleave the uber-wealthy from the good middle Americans deluded into subsidizing the ubers’ jets, club drugs, and sex parties.

Have you seen my take on Swopa’s post on Lakoff’s analysis of how “centrism” played out in last year’s election? The centrists didn’t pander to Republican values, they simply played up the progressive values that had the most bipartisan appeal.

I liked that approach to going after red states and districts – it shows progressivism as a political movement with something for everybody, without pandering to and legitimizing Republican values.

Also, one of the common threads running through all of Howie’s Blue America candidates was integrity and decency, and I think that really resonated with a lot of rational Republican voters who respect those character traits.

Kirk, my answer is at post 79.

You don’t condone torture. You don’t sanction war because it seems like a jolly good time. And you don’t let “Godwin’s Law” stop you from calling out a political party that decides to behave like Nazis.

That doesn’t mean it’s easy, I have some friends I have known all my life, I’ve been to the wedding, kids’ baptisms…”Don’t you dare criticize President Bush in my house, at my dinner table!!!111eleven!!!”

(I was just agreeing with the kids, by the way.)

It’s hard work!

ifthethunderdontgetya @ 187

That doesn’t mean it’s easy, I have some friends I have known all my life, I’ve been to the wedding, kids’ baptisms…”Don’t you dare criticize President Bush in my house, at my dinner table!!!111eleven!!!”

I remember about 20 years ago, this couple who were my dad and stepmom’s best friends – one of them said something about AIDS being God’s punishment on the gays. And I never saw them again. Dad and Stepmom cut them off cold.

(I should probably also mention that the godfather of one of my little sisters died of AIDS…)

Wow Eli! I hadn’t. Thanks for the linkie!

I ordered this book and am eagerly awaiting its arrival. Yes, I remember this experiment talked about in Psych/Soc classes in college. But more recently, all of you have seen this. First example, AOL. I used to be an AOL junkie. It was mostly “the lefties” vs “the righties.” But the past 2 years, it got very bizarre. Exactly like what this author says. (And I have noticed it on blogs, too.) You get a core group of online friends, the in-crowd, who tend to talk down everyone who doesn’t agree. No, I am not talking about Eli, or Jane, or Christy, or Pach, or God forbid, TRex! I am talking about the “in crowd” of people who always post in the comments. Just this week, I said something and one regular hinted that I was “dissing” the owners. I wasn’t even talking about them. This is Group Think.

“I admit that I’m going out on a limb with the decent-Republicans claim, but I do know several Republicans who are very nice, so it should theoretically be possible.”

Interesting to see all the references to the “Rise and Fall of the 3rd Reich” etc. Those who enabled the Nazi’s or carried out their orders, where often described as good and decent people who loved their families, pets and were considered “good” friends and neighbors. It’s what is called the “banality of evil”. The Republican Party has more than it’s share. The court proceedings of the Nuremburg trials makes for reading that is still relavent today.

Shell—

If I recall that conversation correctly, you are free to call Ann A anything you want.

However at FDL the C word is considered too violent, it is what drunken men scream at their wives while beating the living daylights out of them. Some people here are still hurting from that.

You can call it group think, I would call it community standards.

egregious –

No, that’s not the core of what I was talking about. Yes, I recall “the C word” deal. And I realize I disagree with most Americans on that. (Likewise, I don’t understand why rape victims have to hide. Remember how silly the William Kennedy Smith rape trial was? The face blotted out? BEING raped is not shameful — rapING is.) And yes, I have been raped — when I was 6 years old.

I am used to being ahead of the mainstream.

But the person who answered me (sorry, I forget her name) missed the point. That’s what I am saying.

When the Republicans use the “bad apple” metaphor, they seem to be unaware of the entire saying. Doesn’t it go, “One bad apple spoils the bunch?”

Oklahoma kiddo @ 28

The GOP has become sordid, tawdry, self-focused, greedy, corrupt and fascistic. I don’t know what else to say. I cannot find a single redeeming example in the Republican Party. And yet, the GOP politicians and rank and file Republicans love George Bush.

I couldn’t agree more. They have done next to nothing to convince us otherwise. However, take comfort, friend. The wheels are coming off.

Three words:

Rule. Of. Law.