
Commentor Bob Schacht asked a question a while back about why Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald cannot use his "plenary powers" to expand his investigation into other kinds of wrongdoing. I was on my way out of the threads at the time and merely said that "plenary powers" didn't mean what he thought it meant and I would maybe do a post on that because it seemed to be source of confusion for a lot of folks who would like to see the tall man take on the Walter Reed scandal, "Purgegate" and a whole host of other problems right up to and probably including rescuing a kitten stuck up a tree.
Recently, Bob reminded me that I have yet to make good on that promise:
Are we into EPU already? I send a shout to looseheadprop, who a week or more ago promised a post on Fitzgerald's plenary powers, and why they are not as far reaching as one might think after reading Comey's scope of powers commission. Did I miss it? I am interested in this subject.
Fitzgerald derives his plenary powers from the initial letter appointing him as Special Counsel which reads in pertinent part:
…delegate you all the authority of the Attorney General with respect to the Department's investigation into the alleged unauthorized disclosure of a CIA employee's identity, and I direct you to exercise that authority as Special Counsel independent of the supervision or control of any offices of the Department…
You see, the plenary powers relate only to the narrow subject matter of "the alleged unauthorized disclosure of a CIA employee's identity." This was further clarified by a subsequent letter where the famous "plenary powers" language crops up:
"all the authority of the Attorney General with respect to the Department's investigation into the alleged unauthorized disclosre of a CIA employee's identity" is plenary and inclused the authority to investigate and prosecute violations of any federal criminal laws related to the underlying alleged unauthorized disclosure, as well as federal crimes committees in the course of and with intent ot interfere with, your investigation, such as perjury, obstruction of justice, destruction of evidence, and intimidation of witnesses; to conduct appeals arising out of the matter being investigated and/or prosecuted; and to pursue administrative remedies and civil sanctions (such as civil contempt) that are within the Attorney General's authority to impose or pursue….
Please note that by the very language of this letter that the "plenary powers" are related solely to violations of law "related to the underlying alleged unauthorized disclosure" and to obstructions of the investigation in the unauthorized disclosure. Shorter version, Fitz had very narrowly drawn subject matter jurisdiction. This was made even more clear during the litigation of a motion offered by the Libby defense team in which they asserted that Fitz’s appointment was improper. Fitzgerald and Comey were able to establish that Fitz was indeed an "inferior officer" because although he had all the powers of the Attorney General with respect to this one narrow area of inquiry, it was limited solely to that one narrow area.
Consequently the repeated calls in some parts of the blogosphere for the tall man in the rumpled suit to dive in and investigate this scandal or that are completely without legal foundation. He simply does not have the power to do that. He cannot unilaterally expand his mandate. Shorter version: he's just a lawyer, not a superhero; wears a rumpled suit, not tights and a cape.
He also has exhibited none of the over ambition nor unseemly self aggrandizement of some of the other special prosecutors who have come before him. There have been no daily impromptu press conferences in his driveway while he hauls out a Heftybag full of household trash, no requests to expand his subject matter jurisdiction involve himself in other people's civil litigations, no swanning about on talk shows.
This is real life folks, and this was simply a profession criminal investigation (which was, ahem, obstructed from reaching its ideal conclusion) followed by a professional criminal trial and conviction on more than ample evidence of the crimes for which legally sufficient admissible evidence existed, not some comic book with "kerpow" in the text balloon.
We should not try to convert a serious somber event (please remember that Scooter Libby is looking at going to jail for a significant period of time, even if he deserves every minute of it, it is still a very sad thing for him and his family to deal with), done by a serious person into some silly call for one guy who is supposed to single handedly right every wrong, solve every mystery, fix every problem for us.
The thing about participatory democracy is, we get to solve our own problems.



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First???
Anybody have a clue what this guy is all about????
http://www.victorypac.org/about.php
About VictoryPAC
I’m a liberal Democrat (pro-gay marriage, pro-choice, pro-progressive taxation, pro-equal rights, pro-environmental regulation, pro-public schools) who supported and supports the war in Iraq. As I tell my liberal friends “Did I miss the part where it was progressive not to fight medieval religious fascists?”
I’ve been waiting for four years for the White House to start really explaining the war to the American people, and to do anything sensible at all to maintain the political capital necessary to keep America in the fight – to keep us from withdrawing because the war is too messy, or too long, or just plain makes us feel bad.
During that time I was blogging about the war and issues around it at Winds of Change.NET, felt I was doing my part, and hoped that the leadership of the country would wake up and realize that public support for hard things – like wars – must be earned and maintained.
[snip]
[CHS notes: Please don’t do really long cut and pastes when you’ve got a link, because it eats up a lot of bandwidth. Thanks much!]
LHP!!!
But my name is Schacht, please :-)
Bob
looseheadprop!!
Funny photograph.
lhp!
Exactly, exactly.
It is we, the people, who have plenary powers. Supporting people like Jerry on the previous thread is one way that we exercise them.
Demanding more and more from our representatives and Senators between now and the next election is another way.
Let’s give Fitz a rest.
Fitz! Thanks, lhp!
thanks for another lucid and inspiring post, looseheadprop.
may your blades always spin freely
Bob at 2 — ask and ye shall receive your correction. (Refresh and you are properly spelled, I hope.)
I just donated to the Roots Project.
Woot !
Sorry, I don’t comment often:-) I’ll be more careful next time.
So is this guy for real? Anybody know his story???
“[CHS notes: Please don’t do really long cut and pastes when you’ve got a link, because it eats up a lot of bandwidth. Thanks much!]>
Muzzy at 9 — Oh, thanks so much! Jane and I were talking about some of the plans we’re looking at for it — and I think you guys are all going to love what comes next. :)
link
Former New York Times reporter Judith Miller, who in 2005 spent 85 days in jail for refusing to identify former White House aide Lewis “Scooter” Libby as a confidential source, said Friday she believes the media failed a major test when reporters and news organizations acquiesced to subpoenas issued them by federal prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald, reports U.S. News & World Report media correspondent Liz Halloran.
Cara at 10 — No problem. And to be honest, I have never heard of that guy. Hmmmmm….anyone?
Ah, too bad the AGAG and all his minions (little Chimpys and Karl Jrs that they be) chose to not understand the actions of a PROFESSIONAL prosecutor…
FYI to Christy, in case you didn’t see this before, I’ve got a transcript of your Thom Hartmann segment up here.
Cara @ 10
Google his name. He’s a partner in Pajamas Media, posts on right-wing blogs about Jamil Hussein and how the Democrats would be weaker without Lieberman, etc. So yeah, he really exists, and no, there appears to be little that’s progressive or liberal about him except his chosen blog name.
dakine01 @
14
Raw Story:
GOP Lawmaker Urges Gonzales to Resign
And were Fitz attempt to push the plenary you wouldn’t hear the end of the screaming. After all he doesnt have the authority of Garbage Bag Man who in his endless investigation of something called “Whitewater” left it far behind in the dust from whence it came to pursue any and all rumors regarding Big Dog leadings we all know to impeachment over a blow-job.
This, we were assured, was the very model of prudence and restraint.
But, but, but — what about the new info emerging about the email domaine outside the WH. Might that not hold all manner of info relevant to the area he’s allowed to investigate?
Danziger is a Lieberman supporter, he’s pro war and he is a neanderthal to use that last sentence in the first paragraph cited in #1.
That is all.
*xyz @ 12
I guess US News has forgotten the basic lesson the “dog bites man” isn’t news.
She bit someone again?
Oh, Fitz…
I agree with your examination of plenary powers.
However, my wish, is that Fitzy resign and
as a private citizen tell all…
I know, I know, I have no right
to tell anyone what to do… but it is my
wish….
I’m guessing both Bush and Cheney lied to him
in June of 2004 and how Rove escaped being
charged, having gone to the Grand Jury five times, is beyond my comprehension…
In this case, time is not of the essence…
By the time we have all the facts, the Bushies are gone, and the clock has run out…
In the meantime, Bush has corrupted this country…
I am sick of waiting…
I’m sorry that’s how I feel…
Jack
*xyz @ 12 -
i despise judith f. miller as much as i despise joe lieberman.
they are not good for my blood pressure.
Maybe there is more to come. I feel it. What if he waits until after Bush/Cheney are out of office so they can’t pardon anyone. What do you think Christy, in your gut. Do you think he could walk away from this cabal?
lhp – thanks so much for the continuing education.
sigh. too bad… ‘cuz fitz has access to some things we don’t have – like a grand jury and subpoena powers.
When, not if, we get a new AG part of the confirmation’s process should include a commitment to appoint an new Special Prosecutor with a broad mandate. And the agreement should include picking the person from a mutually agreed list of three candidates developed jointly by Dem’s and Repugs in congress. There should be an agreement to do this within thirty days of confirmation. I’m not sure how this could be enforced except, perhaps through impeachment but perhaps that would be enough of a threat.
He’s just a lawyer — and not much of one at that. I will never be forget him NOT indicting Rove — after insiders said he was being indicted.
He gave Rover 5 chances — FIVE CHANCES — to get his story straight before the grand jury. That’s a neon sign that something is rotten in the state of denmark. How could you even indict him for lying to a GJ when you give him 5 chances?
I think his deal was either not being fired with the 8 or a judgeship later.
When does the Conrad Black trial begin? Will Fitz himself be trying that case?
And did you know that you can’t comment about Conrad Black on any WaPo George Will columns? He’s got a filter installed, after his conflict was revealed, where comments get trapped unless you type Conr*d Bl*ck or similar filter-evading nonsense. Which people have, of course, learned to do.
Thinking here about the opposite of Phoenix Woman’s post this morning about how different our world would be had Gore been President:
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..have-been/
What if Comey hadn’t appointed Fitzgerald??
Mad props to the Prop!
One other thing that differentiates Fitzgerald and the Plame case from Ken Starr and the OIC’s preening: Unlike Fitzgerald and his staff, the OIC was a quasi-legal body; while they had the power to subpoena, their rulings had at best limited legal force — they could be used by Republicans to impeach in a Senate show trial, but never in a real law court.
That’s the real irony here — if Clinton were just Joe Blow instead of the president, and the case were tried in a real court of law, it would have been laughed out of court. (Indeed, key parts of it, such as the Paula Jones nuisance lawsuit, were laughed out of court — but not before the Jones/Starr team tried to catch Clinton in a perjury trap.)
Thanks for this clarification lhp. I recall having the impression after reading one of the initial letters from Comey to Fitz that he had the full power as granted by the office of the AG to pursue the matter, in essence, wherever it lead. In fact, I thought it stated as much in no uncertain terms. That may be why I (and surely many others following the Plame case closely) had high hopes that all roads would lead clearly to Cheney and that Fitz would be obligated to go there.
Disappointing that it didn’t work out that way. One way or another these criminals are going down.
So, hypothetically, what happens if, while working in his narrow area, he uncovers something suspicious (or even outright illegal) that falls outside his jurisdiction? What does a rule-abiding lawman do? What are the legal options, in his position? Esp if they came up in the GJ?
Certainly those ex-WH domains might qualify. And we can all imagine plenty o’ others…
angie at 20 — Oh, THAT Danziger…
Can he formally request an expansion of his mandate/power?
Can he publicly request such a thing?
oh selise — cspan 2 @ 7pm is carrying your Rep. Jim McGovern hosting a reception for Mike Farrell re his new book
“Just Call Me Mike: A Journey to Actor and Activist”
(yeppers, Christy– the one and the same)
TeddySanFran @ 30
The trial’s already started, though there’s been a short recess which Black used to hop over the border to attend a party.
Chimp wants Poodle’s sailors returned. Foot-stamping:
It’s disturbing when he uses the word “must.”
Phoenix Woman @ 31
This is the problem with impeachment. By putting it in the hands of a partisan body, it means that high crimes can easily go unpunished, while misdemeanors can result in impeachment, all depending on the makeup of the Congress.
The reason I ask is that it is obvious that more wrong doing needs to be oncovered and if something is worth going to jail to obstruct justice then it is likely a serious matter – such as a crime.
Perhaps now it is for Congress to investigate, so the balance of powers is all well and good.
By the way, it is time for a little reminder: You get one name on this blog. No sock puppetry. We catch you trying to do it, you risk being banned. Just so you know.
whateva @ 29
Not much of a lawyer? I’ll bet Libby would disagree with you on that one.
((((((Fitz))))))))) don’t give up. When I saw the picture of Fitz scowling at Abu, my heart skipped a beat.
http://thenexthurrah.typepad.c…..nows_.html
We should not try to convert a serious somber event
sigh
not a single sip of schedenfreude? no Fitzmas cheer?
TeddySanFran @ 38
Chimp wants Poodle’s sailors returned. Foot-stamping:
It’s disturbing when he uses the word “must.”
Yea, “What the American people MUST understand…”
*xyz @ 12
When writing responses to US News, do feel free to cite the information contained in this post of mine on Dearest Judy.
It would be great if the ICC would begin a trial of these thugs… Even if it is just a trial in absentia… let the evidence be presented and the judgment rendered… and let them move to Uraguay and live in hiding… on some ranch.
The whole criminal lot of them… may they rot in eternal hell.
Christy Hardin Smith @
42
huh?
[madly scrolling upwards to see what’s up….]
DefJef @ 48
I think they have all reserved spots in the Bush Wing of Hell.
Terry Olson @ 46
It’s disturbing when he uses the word “must.”
Yea, “What the American people MUST understand…”
Maybe if he said it was *unacceptable*, I might take him seriously…
TeddySanFran @ 39
It’s disturbing when he uses the word “must.”
Language, language, language.
They are not hostages if they were in disputed or Iranian waters and it seems that they were and we’ll find out. They are arrested/detained but not hostages or pows. They may have violated international law. Bush’s bullying is surely not helping things, either.
We don’t know for certain yet. But they are not hostages.
Bob Schacht @ 2
Sorry, as I read this I found my usual high ratio of typos.
TeddySanFran @ 39
The ‘quid pro quo’ Bush mentions is of course the fact that the US has been holding five Iranian diplomats hostage since January and refuses to exchange them for the fifteen UK sailors.
Never fear, we have another tall man in a rumpled suit.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 41
Christy, can you change your handle in some way? I took my name when I was so pissed about Bush using AT&T to snoop on Americans that I just wanted to show them I was not afraid!
OT:looking for garlic mashed potatoes recipie that someone has used-I have a bunch but am curious if someone here has a special recommendation(sedar monday night!)
Cara @
1
Looks like a troll to me:
this from the page presented:
Here in California, defeated Gubernatorial candidate Phil Angelides (who I used to work for, by the way…)
and then the author says he’s a Democrat supporting the war and against bringing the troops home now…
but the web page source indicates the author is writing on a style sheet which has an interesting source…
Phoenix Woman @ 54
We do not negotiate with people we accuse of being terrorists.
Not publicly, anyway.
redX @
36
Isn’t the democratic reality that the primary benefit of Fitz’ prosecution of Scooter Libby is not that one liar is going to jail and the Rule of Law is upheld, but that the Bush Administration is held up to scrutiny by the public a bit?
In other words, Fitz will not save us, and should not save us.
Relying on prosecutors to restore both democracy and the Rule of Law is leaning on a thin reed, no matter how good one prosecutor may be.
Only an active (and even enraged) populace can do that.
That is how I read lhp, himself a lawyer, and that is how it ought to be.
(And that’s how I read redX’s followup comment.)
angie @ 37 –
thanks angie… i didn’t know, will try to watch.
i’m still so bummed about McGovern voting for Iraq war funding bill… i’d sorta decided to cut him some slack (howie’s encouragement in this regard should not go unheeded)…. but there are now TWO MORE things that have me irked.
1. where the frack is the “don’t attack iran w/out congressional approval” bill that McGovern told me (last saturday) that he had a promise from Pelosi there would be a vote on? isn’t the House on break now for 2 weeks?
2. on thursday McGovern endorsed Clinton for president. the one democratic candidate who not only voted FOR the war, and she still thinks it was right to vote for the war. acckkkk!!! if McGovern had made this endorsement before the anti-war rally here, he would have caught hell.
i am so bummed.
angie @ 52
On the other hand, what is the status of the Iranian diplomats that Chimpy’s troops grabbed in Iraq?
Phoenix Woman @
54
One could do a very interesting comparative workup on the psychology of hostage-taking presidents.
dakine01 @ 14
Oh, I think they understood them very well, that was the problem. An honest and professional approach was NOT AT ALL what they wanted.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 42
And believe me, we CAN catch you doing it.Terry Olson @ 31
Good question. We were very, very lucky with this one.
petedownunder @ 62
Unlawful combatants?
DefJef @ 48
my fantasy is to have Fitz appointed ICC prosecutor and have another whack at Rove along with Darth Vader and Smirk
angie @ 52
The Iranians want to exchange for their 7 diplomats that were taken last month in Iraq.
Alice @ 55
Excellent point… I hope Condi and others respect him…
Bay State Librul @ 69
Excellent point… I hope Condi and others respect him…
I hope they take him very, very lightly as someone not to be worried about.
News Grinder @ 19
Maybe it will, in which case there might be a squoosh more work for him to do. Or, Maybe they won’t…
Terry Olson @ 56
I am no expert, and don’t mean to speak for Christy, but I’ve seen others change handles by using the form “new handle formerly known as old handle” for a while and then just using “new handle”. I don’t know what the official method is.
“Shorter version: he’s just a lawyer, not a superhero; wears a rumpled suit, not tights and a cape.”
Precisely…
Unfortunately, most of us here are desperately looking for somebody, anybody to use their super “plenary powers” to fix this huge mess Bush and his gang have been up to…..
(including myself)….
Agreed that “plenary powers” were limited to the CIA leak investigation, but could not that have included going beyond charging one person, Libby, with perjury, obstruction, and lying, and actually telling us who were responsible for the leaks, even if there was no crime committed?
As it is, something critical (Who done it?) is left to implication (It was Cheney, but he had the authority), interpretation (It was Armitrage, but no crime was committed), and second-guessing (Nobody did it and there was no crime.)
I have a sneaking suspicion even Plame and Wilson are not totally happy with this legal outcome, as they seem to be bent on pursuing a civil case.
Terry Olson @ 56
Only if it’s LooHoo teeheehee *g*
petedownunder @ 72
Even if you change your name abruptly and without notice, I don’t think that’s a problem. But if you try to maintain two *simultaneous* identities, that’s a huge no-no.
One my my senators, Gooper John Ensign (R-NV), recently wrote me back to claim that Fitz had determined that “no crime had been committed” in the outing of Valerie Plame Wilson.
Where did Fitz ever publicly state that?
.
Bay State Librul @ 24
Hate to ruin you fanatasy, but even if he resigns, he still can’t tell. Grand Jury secrecy attached to the information, not to the person who knows it.
Even all these many years later, I still carry around secrets learned through the GJ process.
Lolo, tee hee back at you!
BobbyG @ 76
Damn good question. My recollection was that he said the exact opposite.
However, he *did* say something to the effect that he could not *prosecute* the underlying crime because of the obstruction (the sand in the eyes).
*xyz @ 12
I’ll let her call herself a writer (not a reporter) if she stops pretending to be an expert on law.
As for the damage she thinks ‘the media’ did to itself, she should look in the mirror. Reporters shouldn’t get to shield the commission of crimes.
(She isn’t worth the money the NYT has spent on her in legal fees, either.)
The thing about participatory democracy is, we get to solve our own problems.
I love that line.
I think the short version of DoJ’s instructions could be summarized as “Investigate this crime and whatever crimes may be related to it. Do whatever we have the power to do within the law. Call if you need more instructions.”
@12: So Judith Miller is still beating that red herring? (yeah, I know, mixed metaphor, but it’s a red herring and she’s still beating it.)
freedom of the press, protection of confidential sources, etc. does NOT extend co-conspirators, accessories to crimes, etc..
whateva @ 29
You are entitled to your opinion, but I must respectfully disagree with you.
Eli @ 80
Damn good question. My recollection was that he said the exact opposite.
However, he *did* say something to the effect that he could not *prosecute* the underlying crime because of the obstruction (the sand in the eyes).
My response to Ensign:
_____
For the record, Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald did NOT conclude dispositively that “no crime had been committed” in the leaking of Valerie Plame’s identity. Libby’s obstruction of justice, along with all the other White House stonewalling, obfuscations/obstructions, rendered such a case problematic.
You seem to support treasonous acts. You should be ashamed. Let’s cut the crap, shall we John? WHAT vital and pressing national interest was served by revealing her identity? Name ONE. You cannot.
This lawless administration is a blot on the national character, and, to the extent that you make excuses for them, you are complicit in the stain.
.
TeddySanFran @ 30
I think it started already, but maybe I am mistaken, I thought I read that though.
It would be impossible for him to came back from Libby and prep Black in a week. Prepping a trial is VERY time consuming
Phoenix Woman @ 65
Christy Hardin Smith @ 42
And believe me, we CAN catch you doing it.Terry Olson @ 31
Good question. We were very, very lucky with this one.
Over at Sadly, No!! you can always masquerade as teh Preview Button. ’cause, he/she/it isn’t showing up any time soon.
P.S. This post was meant to invoke teh power of the Preview Button. Please stand up and spin around three times.
looseheadprop @ 84
You are entitled to your opinion, but I must respectfully disagree with you.
If they tried to bribe him he would kick them to the curb.
Terry Olson @ 31
I think about THAT a lot.
selise — Just sent this to my Congresswoman. If I get an answer to this email, I will post it at FDL:
Looseheadprop,
Thanks again for taking this on. I was first put onto this issue by Citizen Spook in a blog quoted elsewhere on the internet. Now, I should make clear before going further that Citizen Spook has problems with FireDogLake (here and here), mainly dating to an exchange last June with Christy Hardin Smith, so said Spook is not a favorite around the Lake. However, let’s look further at the public record about this, which Citizen Spook published back on August 8, 2005.
Now, first I should state that the main point of Spook’s blog was that Fitzgerald could not be fired. He was not primarily concerned with the breadth of his investigatory mandate.
However, Spook does make the following claim, in bold:
Citizen Spook makes much more of a clarification of Fitzgerald’s powers by Comey’s press conference of December 30th, 2003, and Decision B-302582 (September 30, 2004) issued by the Government Accountability Office. Here’s part of what Comey actually said in the press conference:
Citizen Spook’s diary on this subject is long, and quotes verbatim Comey’s letters, press conference, and the GAO decision. I think that establishes that
(1) Fitzgerald can’t be fired;
(2) His budget cannot be limited.
The third and crucial point is the scope of his mandate, and what exactly is meant by “the alleged unauthorized disclosure of a CIA employee’s identity,” and the legal basis for Comey’s comment that “Follow the facts; do the right thing. He can pursue it wherever he wants to pursue it.”
The Libby trial is interesting because it did not directly involve perjury or obstruction of justice with respect to Plame’s identity. Furthermore, it was pretty well established at the trial that the trail of cookie crumbs regarding disclosure of Plame’s identity leads right to the office of the VP and beyond that to the President’s office itself.
I think that Fitzgerald’s mandate is broader than he has chosen to exercise, and that he is being very cautious. I think he conducted the trial in a way that would expose all kinds of loose ends, but apparently he feels that he does not have enough good evidence to go after Cheney, Rove, or other members of WHIG. I think he could, but he has chosen not to.
Thanks for putting this issue back on the table!
Aloha,
Bob in HI
looseheadprop @ 78
Bay State Librul @ 24
Hate to ruin you fanatasy, but even if he resigns, he still can’t tell. Grand Jury secrecy attached to the information, not to the person who knows it.
Even all these many years later, I still carry around secrets learned through the GJ process.
You did ruin my fantasy…
On another matter, what’s your take on a DOJ
official taking the 5th?
Alice @ 55
I like Waxman, but he strikes me as being a short man in a rumpled suit, which is just fine. Einstein was also a shorty, and so were Beethoven, Mozart, and the second president of the US, John Adams.
Christy Hardin Smith @
8
Yes! Thanks!
Bob in HI
BobbyG @ 77
Ask Ensign, if he’s so damn sure!
well, hello!!
who’s that handsome guy at the top of the thread?
Led Zeidenberg aint so bad hisself, if you know what i’m sayin…yowza!
Nola Sue @ 34
He turns it over to another “lawyer for the government” who actually has the needed jurisdiction. Under grand jury secrecy rules you can share grand jury secrets with another lawyer for the government with no muss, no fuss.
TeddySanFran @ 89
thank you! hope you hear something good. i will try to get a follow up from McGovern next week… i’m kicking myself now for not asking him on saturday, “when will there be a vote?”
TeddySanFran @ 94
Ask Ensign, if he’s so damn sure!
The last thing I remember him saying about the investigation amounted to “I’ve done all I can”. That’s a long way from saying no crime was committed.
redX @ 36
Could he? I guess? But I would be shocked if he did unless he tripped over case so iron clad and so sensitive and jurisdictionally messy that there was no other possible choice.
I don’t see that as a likely situation
petedownunder @ 62
On the other hand, what is the status of the Iranian diplomats that Chimpy’s troops grabbed in Iraq?
Hostages. Kidnapped.
The Iranians — especially diplomats– have business in Iraq. They are neighbors to the sovereign *cough* nation of Iraq. Maliki has met with Ahmadinejad and they are trying to forge a working relationship. And for goodness sakes they are diplomats! Not armed sailors who have no business in disputed waters looking for car smugglers.
We are using the MEK and others to infiltrate Iran… I surely wouldn’t trust us.
CHS and FireDogLake minders:
Hi, I am rather new to blogging, and just signed up with DailyKos, another great site as you know. What they have on their site is a FAQ page with a very good run down on what is good blogging, not just minding your manners, but important things like quoting from copyrighted material, etc… I don’t know if they would be so kind at Kos to let you use it, if you thought it a good idea, of course, but it might help set up standards here that some bloggers might not be aware of.
I have had more thatn a few friends check out the Lake and we all agree how unique and wonderful it is, thanks.
selise @ 97
TeddySanFran @ 89
thank you! hope you hear something good. i will try to get a follow up from McGovern next week… i’m kicking myself now for not asking him on saturday, “when will there be a vote?”
Thank YOU for reminding me to ask her wazzup!
Alice @ 45
We’re a fickle lot I think. The Fitz is dead (figuratively)–long live The Waxman.
Methinks there’ll be plenty of bubbly schadenfreude & caviar in our futures.
Terry Olson @ 56
Christy, can you change your handle in some way? I took my name when I was so pissed about Bush using AT&T to snoop on Americans that I just wanted to show them I was not afraid!
————–
You can change your handle if you TELL FDL that you are doing it. Otherwise it can be viewed as tr*llish behavior, iirc.
eyesonthestreet … welcome aboard!
We don’t have a Faq but we do have a fab community and a group of dedicated mods to help folks along. If you have questions, just ask … and rest assured the mod team will take care of the rest.
Cheers,
Siun
media maiden (grinning at Eureka Springs) for FDL
selise @ 61
angie @ 37 –
thanks angie… i didn’t know, will try to watch.
i’m still so bummed about McGovern voting for Iraq war funding bill… i’d sorta decided to cut him some slack (howie’s encouragement in this regard should not go unheeded)…. but there are now TWO MORE things that have me irked.
1. where the frack is the “don’t attack iran w/out congressional approval” bill that McGovern told me (last saturday) that he had a promise from Pelosi there would be a vote on? isn’t the House on break now for 2 weeks?
2. on thursday McGovern endorsed Clinton for president. the one democratic candidate who not only voted FOR the war, and she still thinks it was right to vote for the war. acckkkk!!! if McGovern had made this endorsement before the anti-war rally here, he would have caught hell.
i am so bummed.
I am sorry and suprised to hear that coming from him!
I asked Jerry last thread about plans for Iran legislation, but his answer at 42 was incomplete…
;(
Thanks, Egregious. How do I tell FDL if I decide to change it?
eyesonthestreet @ 100 –
howdy! we all try to pitch in to answer questions… but, mostly we’re just really lucky that christy and jane and trex hang out in the comments with us and the mods are operating in the background.
ruffian @ 57
There’s a garlic mashed potatoes recipe in the French Chef cookbook, show 69. A very quick version of it:
Take two heads of garlic, separate into cloves, and boil the cloves for 2 minutes. Drain, peel, and cooked, covered, in 4 Tbsp butter for 20 min – they should be very tender but not browned. Blend in 2 Tbsp flour, cook lowly 2 min, and remove from heat. Beat in 1 cup hot milk, 1/4 tsp salt and a pinch of pepper, and set aside (reheat if necessary) if the potatoes aren’t ready.
Peel and quarter 2 1/2 lb baking potatoes and boil or steam until tender, then put through ricer into a heavy saucepan. Stir briefly over moderately high heat until the potatoes film the bottom of the pan, the stir in 4 Tbsp butter abd salt and pepper to taste. Hold uncovered over simmering water until ready to serve (but try to time it so they don’t have to be held).
At the last minute before serving, rub the garlic through a sieve or food mill into the potatoes, beat in 3 to 4 Tbsp heavy cream and 1/4 cup minced parsley, and put into a hot buttered serving dish.
Terry Olson @ 108
Uh, no expert here having always been egregious :) but I think you can just announce here in the thread you are changing from Terry Olson to New Name and that’s good enough. Other more experienced people help me out here?
Christy Hardin Smith @
42
Curses! JUST when I was ready to unveil my new handle (MarcynChristyRTehHOT)
angie @ 105
i wasn’t here for the previous thread… off to check now… thanks!
My, my @ 73
That somebody, anybody is us and our fellow citizens. Power in under our Constittuion is bottom up. It comes from the citizens and can be taken away by the citizens.
That, and never forget that your Congrescrittes (even if they are not of your party) WORK FOR YOU.
Be a demanding boss!
I’m just speculating, but it seems to me that Fiztgerald, who is a special prosecutor and not an independent prosecutor, has sufficient respect for the spirit as well as the letter of the law of his mandate to not go off on hunting expeditions. He tried and convicted the guy he could get, and he’s not going to get himself and the DOJ bogged down in fruitless greymail battles he can’t win. Fitzgerald seems to be an extremely competent prosecutor. Let’s stop trying to make him a partisan operative. He’s quite probably a decent human being who happens to be Republican (or not) who found himself prosecuting this partisan mess. Our whole system of law and justice depends on people like him, who are simply doing their difficult jobs within the screwed up parameters we give them. It’s kind of amazing and gratifying that so many of them succeed.
P J Evans @ 81
This story is for those of you who are familiar with the toddler book, Where’s Spot? In the summer of 03, I bought 2 copies & pasted over every time it said Spot with WMDs. I sent copies, without note, but with my return address, to Judith Miller & Tony Blair. From Miller I got a handwritten note back, blathering about yes, where are they, we were all fooled, etc. From Blair, I got a typed note from his assistant thanking me for my gift.
dreamcatcher @ 74
Dream catcher,
read the liveblogging from the trial. He told exactly who did what, when they did it, how they did. That’s why “there is a cloud over the White House, a cloud over the Office of the VicePresident”
He did exactly what you have asked for.
Thanks Suin, I will.
And now I now, Mods, not minders, yet another whole new language!
BobbyG @ 77
No where that I ma aware of. And I have been kinda following this thing.
Okay, okay, now I Know……….
Garlic Mashed Potatos
http://www.cooks.com/rec/view/…..93,00.html
eCAHN — that story makes me laugh. Except I am so tired of Judy’s “we were all fooled” whining. She was a willing dupe, an active pawn, and a uncritical stooge.
I do like the picture you’ve painted of Judy seriously paging through your edited copy of Where’s Spot?
Fitz and his people from the Libby trial and from Black’s trial are why I’m not one of those who wants all the USAs fired because (as some claim) the ones who weren’t fired must be going along with the political pressure. Unless there’s some evidence that a USA gave in to pressure to make a political case of thin air, I’d prefer to assume the person is honest. But some of the USAs have to go, because some of them have compromised themeselves.
eyesonthestreet—
Welcome and feel free to jump in! There were so many things I didn’t know at the beginning that people called me ‘egregious’ and were laughing. Now we laugh together. You have a good suggestion about an FAQ for FDL.
TeddySanFran @ 121
Considering I got a reply from both Miller & Blair, I imagine they’ve both kept their copies & read them frequently. It’s about right for their reading level.
Christy– maybe Mike Farrell could/would come here for a book salon…
Maxine Waters and Jim McGovern speak glowingly of him and what he’s saying in his talk right now sounds right on target.
from amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Just-Cal…..1933354089
Kudos, LHP,excellent overview, however I beg to differ in that; Fitz never saw the ‘GWB43.com’ e-mails! If Waxman obtains Rove’s 95% missing e-mails, his plenary powers could be substinately revived, and viably answer the Libby Jurists’ questions of where’s Rove/Cheney???
Bob Schacht @ 91
Two points Bob, there was later litgation over the issue of whether Fitz was an “inferior officer” specifically over whether he could be fired and whether he could expand his mandate. Both Fitz and Comey put in affidavits saying that he was subject to being fired and that his mandate could only be expanded if his supervisor (now Margolis) said so. The court ruled in conformity with those affidavits, so,
although the Spook (I am a loyal Spook lurker) MIGHT have had a point BEFORE the litigation of this issue, his position is out of date.
Bay State Librul @ 92
Hate to ruin you fanatasy, but even if he resigns, he still can’t tell. Grand Jury secrecy attached to the information, not to the person who knows it.
Even all these many years later, I still carry around secrets learned through the GJ process.
You did ruin my fantasy…
On another matter, what’s your take on a DOJ
official taking the 5th?
Made me sick to my stomach.
BTW falsely asserting the 5th, is also a form of obstruction of justice. So, she may just be getting bad legal advice. ANd is dumb enough to follow it, but I don’t know what going on with her.
looseheadprop @ 128
Bob Schacht @ 91
Two points Bob, there was later litgation over the issue of whether Fitz was an “inferior officer” specifically over whether he could be fired and whether he could expand his mandate. Both Fitz and Comey put in affidavits saying that he was subject to being fired and that his mandate could only be expanded if his supervisor (now Margolis) said so. The court ruled in conformity with those affidavits, so,
although the Spook (I am a loyal Spook lurker) MIGHT have had a point BEFORE the litigation of this issue, his position is out of date.
Who brought the litigation?
Selise @ 25
But here are some things that will help combat the daily grind that gives us high blood pressure, such as Rove, Bush, Lieberman, Gonzales, et al.
Oats
Barley
Eggplant
Soy Protein
Beans
Cauliflower
Brocolli
Carrots
Oranges
Apples
Pears
Whole Grain Breads
Whole Grain Cereals
Fish
Nuts
Celery
Also olive oil, corn oil, sunflower seed oil, canola oil, and soybeans oil and flaxseed.
sab @ 115
Yes, I agree, life is not perfect. Hope he keeps his job, or better yet, gets transferred to N. CAL, where the new “interim” USA is a RNC “piggly-wiggly” heir from North Carolina. Can it get any worse?
CTuttle @ 127
We don’t know what Fitz saw. He did write in one of his filings that “In an abundance of caution…” he wanted to inform the court that he was aware that some emails were not archived properly.
sab @ 115
THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!
OT but in response to some questions on this thread and many others: FDL badly needs a FAQ page as I and many others have suggested. For whatever reason Christy and Jane have not taken up the idea so I have another thought.
I notice Jane has an entry in Wikipedia, but FDL does not (though it’s referred to in Jane’s entry). Perhaps some Pups who know more about this stuff than I do can create a wikipedia entry for FDL then we can all add bits of wisdom and create a de facto FAQ page that newbies can be directed to when then inevitable questions arise. What do you all think?
btw– cspan2 @ 9pm
At Emptywheels piece about “coming attractions”. The upcoming A*I*P*A*C/ Rosen trial coming up on June 4th (if it is not delayed once again, or if they do not trap Prosecutor Paul McNulty in this AG scandal) was not mentioned.
. Let’s hope the MSM and the blogs do their jobs and cover this critically important trial.
P J Evans @ 123
That’s why they were so angry. The other day Abu G had a meeting with 5 or 6 USA’s from surrounding states after his Press confernce in Chicago. The Chicago trib had a story indicating that these USA’s were ripping Abu some new body cavity opeings saying that people would now believe that if no one tried to fire them, it must mean they are corrupt.
They all have this “how do you disprove a negative/” problem coupled with a “where do I apply to get my reputation back?” problem.
Imagine if you are an honest USA who just happend to be in district that Rove didn’t care about, so nobody ever bothered to try to corrupt you.
But you are still tarred with the same brush…
Seriously, LHP, Fitz, never closed the investigation, In his response to Waxman, he politely declined to testify and/or turnover his case files to the committee but, he specifically stated; “However, barring any new evidence…”! The RNC servers would obviously reveal the missing link!
CTuttle @ 127
Oh, I admit that it may be a possibility, I just don’t have any actual information.
He’ll always be a superhero to me. :)
looseheadprop @
64
Oh, I think they understood them very well, that was the problem. An honest and professional approach was NOT AT ALL what they wanted.
I call it being willfully obtuse…
Hello, Kathleen,
i’m not familiar with that trial – what is it about and what are you hoping will be accomplished?
lhp@129
IANAL but assuming this refers to Monica Goodling, she can take the 5th in response to questions whose answer might tend to incriminate herself but she cannot take the 5th to avoid all questions entirely.
If she attempts to take the 5th on every single question, whether or not it can be self-incriminating, she might face contempt charges. For example, “How long have you worked for the Alberto Gonzales?” (LHP can correct me if I am wrong.)
Aside from that a DOJ attorney taking the 5th (on taking office I am sure they take an oath to uphold the truth) is surely a huge dose or irony, but that is par for the Bush administration.
Bay State Librulat 130
(didn’t want to bust the margins)
The litigation was brought by Team Libby. They said that Pat was not legally appointed because the “plenary powers” business meant he had to be, wait for it……
Confirmed by the Senate! Like the AG or a USA.
Oh the waves of irony!!!!
Inferior officers like Assitant AGs, just get appointed by the AG and have no power of their own, all their power is conferred upon them by the AG. So, in order to not be illegally appointed, Pat had to [prove he was an inferior officer and therefore not subject to Senate confirmation
[Modnote: “didn’t want to bust the margins” —- Bless you my child. The Margin Faerie]
petedownunder @ 132
I’d appreciate that. Rayne?
RE: The Conrad Black trial. The US press is more or less ignoring it, presumably because it doesn’t involve any blond women. I think the Toronto press is covering it, though, so try searching there. (And yes, I’m acutely aware of the irony of the Canadian press covering an American trial better than the Americans.)
Frank Probst @ 141
Me, too. Especially now that we’re glimpsing the dreadful environment in which he’s had to do his work.
Frank Probst @ 147
Well that and (I’m gonna get myself in trouble with some prosecutors in Chicago here) I was always struck by how it seemed that there were more potetnitial crimes committed in Canda than in the US.
Where are the Candaian prosections?
Frank Probst @
147
This is not that ironical, since Conrad Black is one of the most prominent of all native Canadians, and owns a newspaper empire there.
petedownunder—
Works for me. I agree that some kind of FDL resource/FAQ would be helpful for our Welcome Wagon for new people.
buyers remorse– Matthew Dowd in the NYT
nytimes link
Conrad Black trial blog
angie @ 152
nytimes link
I appreciate him coming around, but I’d have a little more sympathy for this man if all of this hadn’t been abundantly clear in 2004. It’s not like we invaded Iraq yesterday.
Angie … rumour has it that the Dowd story will get some discussion here later tonight …
Siun @ 155
:O
agreed, Frank.
looseheadprop @
128
When I read this first (somewhere else) I wondered why it was that Fitzgerald capitulated so easily on this, and why did Comey reverse himself?
In light of the fiasco over at DOJ, I think Fitzgerald would have to do something pretty outrageous to be fired, without a Saturday Night Massacre kind of firestorm. And whatever happened to Sealed vs. Sealed, anyway?
But on the theme of what kind of evidence Fitzgerald would need to re-open his investigation, Marcy’s timetable post listed a number of meetings of the “SSCI”– wouldn’t that be the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence? Are they the investigative committee primarily qualified to follow up on Plamegate? Their hearings are closed, but can Fitzgerald get access to testimony they obtain?
BTW, I agree with your basic point on citizen activism. However, based on the Watergate model, as citizens we depend on special prosecutors or independent counsels, AND our representatives in Congress, to do the right thing.
And now, one more piece: citizen journalists like you and the FDL, TPM, DailyKos diarists, et al., who expose the creepy crawly things under the rocks to sunlight!
Bob in HI
Useful Conrad Black coverage:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/black_conrad/
The Justice Department officials who were selected to be interviewed hit merely the tip of this iceberg. It is extremely important that the House and Senate Judiciary Committee’s interview John Nowacki, Principal Deputy Director as well as the Acting Counsel to the Director in the Executive Office of the Justice Department, in order to establish the links between the Justice Department officials, the US Attorney’s in the field, and the political operatives who helped remove the targeted US Attorney’s. I have gathered and organized every document released so far from the Justice Department relating to John Nowacki as well as background information on his relationship with the Federalist Society. You will be shocked at how many key pieces of information he gives to Paul McNulty, William Moschella, Michael Elston, William Mercer, Monica Goodling, and former employees Michael Battle and Kyle Sampson.
This story on John Nowacki, including updates, can be found at: http://misterapologist.blogspot.com/
Zach—
You’ve pulled together a lot of really helpful information, great work!
Hey LHP, it seems you have a strong Hawaiian fan base; Bob in HI, DaKine01, Me, and lolo, I have a sneaky suspicion he/she is from the Aina! I live in Hilo, on the Big Isle!
Gunga Djinn @ 83
maybe it’s a dead herring.
Bob Schacht @ 157
When I read this first (somewhere else) I wondered why it was that Fitzgerald capitulated so easily on this, and why did Comey reverse himself?
In light of the fiasco over at DOJ, I think Fitzgerald would have to do something pretty outrageous to be fired, without a Saturday Night Massacre kind of firestorm. And whatever happened to Sealed vs. Sealed, anyway?
But on the theme of what kind of evidence Fitzgerald would need to re-open his investigation, Marcy’s timetable post listed a number of meetings of the “SSCI”– wouldn’t that be the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence? Are they the investigative committee primarily qualified to follow up on Plamegate? Their hearings are closed, but can Fitzgerald get access to testimony they obtain?
BTW, I agree with your basic point on citizen activism. However, based on the Watergate model, as citizens we depend on special prosecutors or independent counsels, AND our representatives in Congress, to do the right thing.
And now, one more piece: citizen journalists like you and the FDL, TPM, DailyKos diarists, et al., who expose the creepy crawly things under the rocks to sunlight!
Bob in HI
Fitz and Comey did not “capitulate”, they avoided having Scooter’s indictment dismissed!
The attack on the terms of Fitz’s appointment was just another kind of greymail.
Thing is, Pat couldn’t have it both ways could he?
Either he was the “all powerful Oz” and all his indictemtns were legally defective,
or,
he was an inferior officer with limited jurisdiction and Scooter’s indectment was not dismissed.
News Grinder @ 19
It might, but someone would have to bring that information to HIS ATTENTION. At that point he might be able to re-open the investigation. But he simply can’t go perusing through things that “might” be relevant.
One further point, IF, in the course of his investigation, Fitz or his team undercovers evidence of OTHER potentially criminal acts that do not fall within his direct mandate…he can use his authority to inform the DOJ’s legal division of this information and they can then appoint others to investigate…or extend Fitz’s mandate.
No professional Federal prosecutor can avert his eyes from probable criminal activity that lies open to his/her vision.
looseheadprop:
One would have to go back and look at Gonzales’ schedule to see where he originally planned to go on his “protect the children from the internet campaign,” and compare it to where he actually ended up going on that day after PurgeGate to see if there was a change of plans, perhaps to restore confidence in USA’s like Fitzgerald.
But as far as his trip to Houston, it would seem that it ties directly to the publicity over the Texas Youth Authority scandal. DOJ declined to get involved in a matter of sexual abuse of 10-17-year-olds at the youth penitentiary there, even though there were pleadings from local officials that the State AG(a Dem) was ignoring the case. This is long-winded, I know, but life is complicated. Perhaps there were similar instances of lax DOG oversight in child abuse cases in the states he visited?
In other words, ignoring child abuse could be added to the long list of lax DOJ oversight…
CTuttle @ 161
This lolo is from So. CA
lolo @ 166
“protect the children from the internet campaign” =
RESTRICTIONS ON THE INTERNET
Be aware and be afraid. This is their next campaign while we are trying to clean up after the previous actions.
CTuttle @ 161
The FDL fan base also includes Islanders who live on the Mainland, like myself. Queens, NY of all places. Don’t ask why..I hate the cold. Rayne is also an expat, living in the Midwest I think. I have plenty ohana still living in the islands.
After Monica Goodling’s promise to invoke the 5th, it seems strange that she did not resign her position. I think her track to a federal judgeship has been shot to pieces. She is so tainted that she will never be able to return to her current position. So why is she sticking it out at DOJ? For the medical benefits? Is she still drawing a salary?
I hope she is subpoena’ed. She would be walking into a perjury and contempt minefield and I don’t think she has the smarts or the legal advice to steer through it, but then IANAL.
ccmask: on your travel plans, I left a response, comment 58. Like a lot of people, I really like to talk about travel.
Thanx lolo, do you know that lolo in Hawaiian means loco or crazy? I still suspect you have polynesian or a Hawaiian connection!
Sheesh how did that happen? Looseheadprop love the post.
egregious @ 168
Yes, one wonders why MSBill is “retiring…” another bully they rely on for power.
Has anyone made on the those charts with names in boxes and lines connecting them along with what we NOW know was said… of course on a time line?
I have never understood how the NOC of Valerie Plame was FIRST made aware to ANYONE in the maladministation? Was this some normal bit of background that the smear campaign would want for any spousal unit?
My sense has always been that the Plame outing was more a shot across the bow of the CIA and any other big mouths over their who might consider opening their pie holes about ANYTHING the Bush crime family didn’t want “out”. This bold gesture was meant to show that the syndicate plays hardball and would stop and nothing.
And didn’t a lot of career CIA quit in the coming months after the outing?
Where’s TeeNut’s book? Is he gonna give back his medal of freedom from the syndicate?
CTuttle @ 172
Ha! No, but they tell me I am so if the name fits what the heck. Perfect!
angie @ 136
9pm what time zone?
The Ohana runs strong and deep! That is the spirit that is so lacking in our Sociopolitical body of today’s Guvamint!!! Thank God, we’re the true ‘Last Bastion of Democracy’, my humble apologies to MA!
CTuttle @
161
This one haole boy grew up in Kentucky, now in Tejas but spent four finest kine years as GI on Oahu (lived in Aiea, birthplace of Bette Midler)
9pm EDT.
http://inside.c-spanarchives.o…..hedule.csp
lolo, from the time I spent in the islands, that’s why I asked if your first name was “paka” a few days ago…paka is hawaiian for smoke and I did like the pakalolo!
it’s been a roller coaster with me and the Fitz
I think he took too long and should have brought charges sooner, I think he should have indicted rove
and I think he should have pursued the further crimes obviously committed since he got his obstruction convictions
easy enough to further question Libby and easy enough to get the information he needed or another obstruction charge against Libby and rove
sorry, though I was euphoric with the verdict what did that get for the country?
nothing much, the vice president got away with treason, rove go got away with treason and I don’t see any reason at all they don’t get charged.
yes, there is enough evidence, yes they might invoke executive priveledge and yes they may use the gray mail tactic
never the less, these crimes must be prosecuted and these criminals must stand before the bar of justice
these people needed to be charged and they needed to invoke executive privilege and gray mail to avoid conviction…and the public needed to be witness and the record needed to be carved into the stone of historical record
his laundry needed to be exposed before planet earth and these crimes needed to be put on the record
sorry, Fitz did NOT use his plenary powers as he was charged, as far as I am concerned he is remiss and has failed his obligation to his charge and our country
he was charged with persuing this event and the crimes concerning this event and it seems to me there is no doubt he did not do this to the best of his ability
now, if sealed vs sealed is what I think it is (IF it even exists) and if that prosecution goes forward then I will have a change of heart concerning fitz’s obligations but so far and until I see sealed vs sealed, I think he is remiss
On another matter, what’s your take on a DOJ
official taking the 5th?
Made me sick to my stomach.
BTW falsely asserting the 5th, is also a form of obstruction of justice. So, she may just be getting bad legal advice. ANd is dumb enough to follow it, but I don’t know what going on with her.
Dowd’s letter said soemthing to the effect of “even if she tells the truth, she could face charges.” The rest of the letter was Republican talking point whining about unfairness of the committee and perjury traps, but that sentence, standing by itself, sounded accurate to me: If she tells the truth, we’ll know what crime she could be charged with.
That’s why I realy want to find out what she was doing–she knows there is a crime there, so what is it, who else is involved, and can she be flipped to go up the chain to Rove?
DaKineo1, You must have been stationed with the 25th ID, Aiea would put you in close proximity of Scofield Barracks! Or, Pearl, or Camp Smith, or Kaneohe, or….
dakine01 @ 181
My little brother always called me lolo because he couldn’t say laura. My older brothers made it official. aka lolothelost
CTuttle @ 161
I have never been to Hawaii, always wanted to visit. I used to surf a little, and snorkel a little,
and drink umbrella drinks a little *g*
CTuttle @
184
Hickam Air Plane Patch…flew a desk in the Acctg office.
CTuttle @
184
I lived up above Pearl Country club in a townhouse complex. Actually we were on the golf course. I could see from Diamond Head to the Wailai mountains from the lanai and my bedroom.
dakine01 @ 181
umm crazysmoke? teeheehee
lolo @
189
umm crazysmoke? teeheehee
On our way to the Nam in Sept 68 we stopped in Honolulu and they let us off the plane. We went into a little garden and toked up. . .what were they going to do to us, send us to Vietnam?
LHP, If you’re ever fortunate enough to make it over here, avoid the ‘tourist trap’ of Oahu/Honolulu, come to the Big Isle or any of the ‘outer isles’! Unless you enjoy a million individuals piled on top of one another in haphazard fashion! Lots to do, but no space to do it!
dakine01 @ 181
At one time the dollar-value of illegal pot — pakalolo or Maui Wowee — in Hawaii exceeded that of sugar cane or pineapples. However, the local gendarmes clamped down pretty hard, including helicopter raids in remote mountain areas, so the “industry” was pretty much wiped out. Poaching on a competitor’s private grove was punishable with extreme prejudice. Canada is now the pot grower’s paradise, it being several hundred times bigger than Hawaii.
perris @ 182
Perris, I appreciate your frustration, but tell me, how does he PROVE these cases in view of the greymai problem?
This is not a trhetorical question. WHat would you lay out in your order of proof?
albert fall @ 183
Made me sick to my stomach.
BTW falsely asserting the 5th, is also a form of obstruction of justice. So, she may just be getting bad legal advice. ANd is dumb enough to follow it, but I don’t know what going on with her.
Dowd’s letter said soemthing to the effect of “even if she tells the truth, she could face charges.” The rest of the letter was Republican talking point whining about unfairness of the committee and perjury traps, but that sentence, standing by itself, sounded accurate to me: If she tells the truth, we’ll know what crime she could be charged with.
That’s why I realy want to find out what she was doing–she knows there is a crime there, so what is it, who else is involved, and can she be flipped to go up the chain to Rove?
You and me both.
Helen @ 133
We don’t know what Fitz saw. He did write in one of his filings that “In an abundance of caution…” he wanted to inform the court that he was aware that some emails were not archived properly.
I recall that he was also a bit “surprised” that Libby NEVER SEEMED TO USE EMAIL. Libby’s response was “not in this job, I don’t”. I suspect that if someone finds a Libby email and an account name much like the gwb43 address that Libby used the boat will be back in the water!
One question I have is what the terms of the following would allow that are specified in Comey’s appointment authorization.
… and to pursue administrative remedies and civil sanctions (such as civil contempt) that are within the Attorney General’s authority to impose or pursue….
Wouldn’t this allow Fitz to testify about failings of the laws relating to the protection of Covert Agents (IAIP Act of 1982) before Congress, to issue a report with recommended changes in the law to assist prosecutors in protecting those covert agents (the presumed intent of Congress)…and to clarify the laws regarding the utilization of Classified materials by those with Security Clearances.
He could also discuss the issues with the CIA under Porter Goss, and why Plame’s Covert Status wasn’t provided by the CIA until after the trial so that he could have explicitly used it in the Miller, Cooper appeals. Clearly such direct knowledge by the judges (and perhaps the reporters themselves) may have forestalled such a lengthy appeal. Judy Miller may have never have even attempted to fight such a case, and other reporters and their media bosses may have been averse to filing suit. The case could have moved along much more rapidly!
In addition, Fitz may have something to contribute in discussing the so-called White House investigation…or lack of one…that related to the leak. I’m sure that he might have some concern about the use of the “honor system” by the WH ~ which constituted the sole method of investigation over who may have leaked classified material. Such a system is almost gauranteed to fail…but it is even more shocking that the WH Office in charge of this internal investigation received NO TIPS from any of those directly involved in the leaks…despite dozens who would have been well aware of those who had spoken to reporters about Plame (e.g. Cheney re. Libby speaking to Miller, Cooper and presumably Russert; Libby re. Rove’s converso with Cooper and Novak; Rove re. Libby’s presumed converso with Russert; and Steven Hadley’s knowledge of Rove’s discussion to Cooper (and Novak) to name just a few). It would seem that the group involved in such internal investigations needs to be more independant and have effective investigatory powers.
Let us see what Waxman/Rockefeller et al. come up with and then see if Fitz can continue…
Otherwise, I just have to say thank you very much Fitz and team for being true to the law and for being so very quiet…
I am sure you have all seen this but it’s worth sharing if you missed it.
http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/co….._about_val
dreamcatcher @
192
dakine01 @ 181
lolo, from the time I spent in the islands, that’s why I asked if your first name was “paka” a few days ago…paka is hawaiian for smoke and I did like the pakalolo!
At one time the dollar-value of illegal pot — pakalolo or Maui Wowee — in Hawaii exceeded that of sugar cane or pineapples. However, the local gendarmes clamped down pretty hard, including helicopter raids in remote mountain areas, so the “industry” was pretty much wiped out. Poaching on a competitor’s private grove was punishable with extreme prejudice. Canada is now the pot grower’s paradise, it being several hundred times bigger than Hawaii.
They were calling it “operation green harvest” when I was there (left in ‘82). The Nat. Guard helicopters and the cops would fly around, spotting if someone was growing in the back yard, go in and pull it up. The only times they busted people then was if someone caused a beef. Of course, in those days, most of the pedicab drivers sold the “GI special” (3 or so grams for $20-$25 per) Prices did go up whil I was there…
They were calling it “operation green harvest” when I was there (left in ‘82). The Nat. Guard helicopters and the cops would fly around, spotting if someone was growing in the back yard, go in and pull it up. The only times they busted people then was if someone caused a beef. Of course, in those days, most of the pedicab drivers sold the “GI special” (3 or so grams for $20-$25 per) Prices did go up whil I was there…
Dreamcatcher, you are so dead on!!! Since the institution of ‘Operation Green Harvest’ in approx. ‘79-’80, the local crime waves have soared, with the decline of pakalolo the insidious ‘Crack’ and now, ‘Crystal Meth’(an even viler drug)waves has descended upon the Aina! I’m a retired HI-ARNG member, every cop I’ve met and served with(numerous) have all stated they would prefer to deal with a pohead as opposed to Meth user!! Misplaced priorities!!!
looseheadprop @ 194
Made me sick to my stomach.
BTW falsely asserting the 5th, is also a form of obstruction of justice. So, she may just be getting bad legal advice. ANd is dumb enough to follow it, but I don’t know what going on with her.
Dowd’s letter said soemthing to the effect of “even if she tells the truth, she could face charges.” The rest of the letter was Republican talking point whining about unfairness of the committee and perjury traps, but that sentence, standing by itself, sounded accurate to me: If she tells the truth, we’ll know what crime she could be charged with.
That’s why I realy want to find out what she was doing–she knows there is a crime there, so what is it, who else is involved, and can she be flipped to go up the chain to Rove?
You and me both.
I thought that letter was very disrespectful and had rove all over it.
Raven @ 190:
You “win” the prize as that is pretty much where and why I chose the name ;})
I still have a copy of “Pid’gin to da Max” on my bookshelf…
CTuttle @ 199
That’s is just so bad to hear. One of the things I loved about the islands was how totally laid back everyone was…
perris @182:
you know, you might be right. he should have at least brought the charges, then let the world see them hiding behind the graymail thing.
dakine01 @ 201
You ever see “The Story of English” where they explain the Pid gin came from what they called the language of “business” pronounced as “pidgin”?
OK. But since Libby was accused of obstructig justice, now that that is out of the way, can’t the path continue to where Libby was obstructing? that is, now we know, to Rove, Cheney, The Pres, all within the origial letter of authrity?
raven @ 204
You ever see “The Story of English” where they explain the Pid gin came from what they called the language of “business” pronounced as “pidgin”?
I do not recall seeing that but it would not be a surprise. Hawaii truly is one of the melting pots of the world with so many different influences and cultures brought together in one place. I always felt it had all the benefits of a foreign country with none of the associated hassles.
looseheadprop @ 193
graymail is a tactic, that’s what it is, a very effective tactic
can the government overcome that effective tactic?
we don’t know, but what we do know is we have to make the criminals use that tactic
these are clear crimes, the government has a clear case
if the officials charged want to use gray mail as their tactic that is their perogative and then it will become congresses job to enact laws that prevent future use of a tactic they see prevents criminals and traitors from being prosecuted
those laws are easy to make too, some of them exist right now, something similar to a fisa court for trials of this nature.
sorry, the fact that graymail is a successful tactic does not exclude criminals that might use it from prosecution
the wheels of justice must turn, when they don’t turn correctly, as in a graymail defense, then the wheels need to be lubricated
as in “congress passes law to make the graymail defense inefective”
this “congress correcting the problem” cannot happen unless these criminals are tried and the gramail probleme reaslized
I do not recall seeing that but it would not be a surprise. Hawaii truly is one of the melting pots of the world with so many different influences and cultures brought together in one place. I always felt it had all the benefits of a foreign country with none of the associated hassles.
Last time I was there, maybe 15 years, we saw Poi Dog Pondering. I found a long lost buddy from the army who retired in Kealakekua after 25 with the San Fran fire dept, he loves it.
Cinnamonape
Back to that “inferior officer” stuff again. Yhe US Atotrney’s manual says the the DOJ Office of Leg affairs gets to decided what you can discuss with Congress pursuant to a “request for information”, and in Fitz’s letter to Waxman he makes it pretty clear that DOJ told him to keep his yap shut. If he disobeys, he is “insubordinate” and there is a reord that supports legally firing him.
I believe the Manual is silent with respect to what you can say to Congress pursuant to a subpeona…
Whatever he may privately have “concerns” over as you outline above, we will proably never know. Professional prosecutors don’t spill their guts about what they may suspect, the indict cases for which they believe that hab=ve sufficient admissable evidence and then they prove them in court.
It’s not lie being a politicion or a pundit. The rules are so different
Interestingly, prior to Green Harvest, everybody(loosely), grew, and the USPS had issued reports stating;”…approximately 85% of outgoing mail(Hawaii to…) contained at least a Joint!!! Believe you me, in the ‘Good Ole Days’ (or Hanabata Days) everyone had money! I was a Guardsman for eleven yrs, nine AD, but I never participated in the operation!
CTuttle @ 210
You should have seen what was in the sansui speakers sent back from the APO! I told my parents to “not open anything” in my hold baggage! Damn, the good ol days!
lina @ 203
Charges against whom? The four leakers? A charge against the Shooter wouldn’t have stuck, because there’s no proof that he ordered the leak. If you shoot at the king, you better not miss.
Everyone keeps assuming that Fitz is done. I really don’t think so. He just nailed Scooter Libby to the wall. The head of the CIA just said that Plame was covert. The whole thing is in open hearings in Congress. Fitz is going to be able to argue at the sentencing that Plame was a covert officer and that Libby was just convicted of lying about his role in leaking her identity during a war. That’s damn close to treason, and Fitz is going to be able to say so. Libby and his lawyers know all of this. They also know that Waxman is continuing to dig into this, AND into the whole Niger farce. He can either flip, or he can go down as the Benedict Arnold of his time.
New thread from TeddySanFran.
Meet the Right’s Field
egregious @ 213
awww, we was rollin, so to speak!
re: Fitz plenary powers
Couldn’t he potentially be appointed to a new investigation that picks up at or near where the last one left off? If current powers-that-be felt it necessary to look at things that have come up since Libby, and if they felt that Fitz was best suited to the job, why couldn’t they rewrite his letter of appointment? A new appointment, dovetailed into the end of his last?
re:Conrad Black Trial
This may have been answered already, but yes, it is underway. Jury was selected quickly (~2 days), and shortly thereafter, Black raised an objection that delayed the trial somehow. (as I recall)
But I keep coming back to this strange confluence of characters: Patrick Fitzgerald, Conrad Black & Co. (including Richard Perle, Henry Kissinger and 911 Commissioner James Thompson), Kyle Sampson & Schumer on the redacted 3 names on the firing list, and of course (EPU’d from yesterday morning) Rove’s slip of the tongue at the opening of his rap video.
Gunga Djinn @ 214
Which powers-that-be would those be? Is there *anyone* in the Executive branch that wants Fitz to go any further? Can Waxman give him a new assignment?
CTuttle @
210
It was the standard income supplement in those days. I know after I left, I had a friend who married local and stayed and for a few years I received an occasional small package…
dakine01 @
201
I still have my copy somewhere in a box,. The author (his name eludes me right now) grew up in the shadow of Punchbowl, an extinct volcano, and around the bend from where I grew up.
This seems to be a split thread — the CIA case and Hawaii memoirs — ah well, who said life was simple? But it does show FDL appeals to all kinds of right-thinking people. By right thinking I don’t mean right-wing!
angie @ 196
Wow, that was powerful
Frank Probst @ 212
there is surely proof the shooter deliberately exposed national secrets for personal gain, there is surely proof skooter helped the shooter commit treason and is an accomplice
charges against who?
those two for a start
against the vice president, the shooter and the skooter, against rove, obviousl
as far as I am conerned fitz is remiss
dreamcatcher @ 218
That is the Arlington of the Pacific, No?
Frank Probst @ 212
*ding*
Thanks to whoever was mentioning Scahill on CSPAN … wow! he’s really amazing
Frank Probst @ 212
against any and all white house employees who conspired to betray an undercover officer of the Central Intelligence Agency. Charge them under the IIPA or the Espionage Act. Let them graymail their way out of it, but at least do it.
dreamcatcher @ 218
i love this.
This seems to be a split thread — the CIA case and Hawaii memoirs — ah well, who said life was simple? But it does show FDL appeals to all kinds of right-thinking people. By right thinking I don’t mean right-wing!
Let’s see now, the CIA, Air America, smack, VP Ngueyn Cao Key. . .will the circle be unbroken?
LHP, you do recognize that Waxman can subpoena Fitz, ‘…and the manual is silent…’, Waxman is doing a masterful job of encircling the Shrub’s Misadministration! I can almost see the light at the end of the tunnel… I truly foresee Waxman putting Fitz to good use!
“Shorter version: he’s just a lawyer, not a superhero; wears a rumpled suit, not tights and a cape.”
I beg to differ, he has proven to be a real life superhero who was handcuffed with kryptonite by elaborate machinations deep into the bowels of the WH administration whose tenacles had strangled all three branches of government. And let’s not forget that Fitz’s boss Mr. Gonzales kept the Plame investigation on a tight leash no doubt with the blessings of the Pres. and VPres..
Partial Fitz Bio (I’m impressed): he became an Assistant United States Attorney in New York in 1988. He handled drug-trafficking cases and in 1993 helped prosecute John Gambino of the Gambino mafia family. In 1994, he became the prosecutor in the case against Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman and 11 other individuals charged in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing.
In 1996, Fitzgerald became the National Security Coordinator for the Office of the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York. There, he served on a team of prosecutors investigating Osama bin Laden.[4] He served as chief counsel in prosecutions related to the 1998 bombings of U.S. embassies in Africa.
In Chicago, Mr. Fitzgerald has supervised the continuing public corruption investigation known as Operation Safe Road, which began in 1998, and which resulted in the convictions of more than 65 defendants, including more than 30 public employees and officials.
It is not just local corruption he seems to dislike, he also has an eye toward conspiracies.
Mr. Fitzgerald also served as trial counsel in United States v. Arnaout, in which the executive director of Benevolence International Foundation, Inc., a charitable organization based in south suburban Chicago, was sentenced to 11 years in prison after pleading guilty to racketeering conspiracy for fraudulently obtaining charitable donations to provide financial assistance to persons engaged in violent activities overseas, including to fighters in Chechnya and Bosnia, instead of using donations strictly for peaceful, humanitarian purposes.
* …participated in the prosecution of US v. Usama Bin Laden, et al., in which 23 defendants were charged with various offenses…Four defendants went on trial in January 2001 in New York, and a jury returned guilty verdicts against all four on May 29, 2001. All four were sentenced to life in prison on Oct. 18, 2001.
* …participated in the trial of US v. Omar Abdel Rahman, et al., a nine-month trial in 1995 of 12 defendants who participated in a seditious conspiracy that involved the February 1993 bombing of the WTC…
* He also supervised the case of US v. Ramzi Yousef, et al., the 1996 prosecution of three defendants who participated in a conspiracy in the Philippines in late 1994…
Well, he does seem to be someone who is more than a little hard on terrorism.
His awards:* Attorney General’s Award for Exceptional Service in 1996
* Stimson Medal from the Association of the Bar of the City of New York in 1997
* Attorney General’s Award for Distinguished Service in 2002
http://oldamericancentury.org/…..23667&
Not to mention
lina @ 203
That pretty shaky on ethical grounds. You are not supposed to bring a case unless you believe you have sufficient admissable evidence to prove it.
So if you beleive most of your evidence will be lost to greymail, how can you justify bringing it?
raven@221
Yes, after World War II, Punchbowl was declared a National Cemetery for veterans, similar to Arlington. That is where I want my ashes to be interred.
Waxman has Sibel Edmonds chomping at the bit. I bet she can fill in a lot of missing puzzle pieces. There are petitions and all kinds of goodies floating around. If Josh TPM picks that up….look out..and pass the pakalolo.
New post up top …
enjoy!
Raven:
Punchbowl National Memorial Cemetary is an incredible sight. Ernie Pyle (WWII journalist killed in action) is buried there. My sister and I tried to find his grave on a visit she made but were not successful (although we didn’t go to any headquarters or anything).
Dreamcatcher: One doesn’t have to be left-handed to be in one’s right mind…
dreamcatcher @ 230
My buddy, Kimo, here in Athens went back a couple of years ago to plan his burial. I guess because he is half-Hawaiian he can be buried there (and a Nam vet).
Sorry, LHP, for bringing about the divergence in the open thread, Hawaii evokes strong memories and emotions, it truly is paradise!!!
Scahill is amazing Siun.
Amy Goodman interviewed him last week in 2 parts…
I’d love to see him here for book salon, too.
RockPaperScizzors @ 228
Terry is that you?
Frank Probst @ 212
Charges against whom? The four leakers? A charge against the Shooter wouldn’t have stuck, because there’s no proof that he ordered the leak. If you shoot at the king, you better not miss.
Everyone keeps assuming that Fitz is done. I really don’t think so. He just nailed Scooter Libby to the wall. The head of the CIA just said that Plame was covert. The whole thing is in open hearings in Congress. Fitz is going to be able to argue at the sentencing that Plame was a covert officer and that Libby was just convicted of lying about his role in leaking her identity during a war. That’s damn close to treason, and Fitz is going to be able to say so. Libby and his lawyers know all of this. They also know that Waxman is continuing to dig into this, AND into the whole Niger farce. He can either flip, or he can go down as the Benedict Arnold of his time.
Thank you Frank. I could nt have said it so well
dakine01 @ 233
Yea, when I went there it was about 75% Japanese tourists. My old man fought from the Canal to Okinawa on a Navy APD so my interest in the Pacific is great.
CTuttle @ 235
What he said…I’ve always known that if I ever win a large enough lottery jackpot, I’m moving back in a new york minute…
dakine01 @ 239
Ironically, if *I* hit the lottery, I’m moving back to New York…
angie @ 236
me, three!
Do they really give a shit if we stay here for a while? I’m multi-tasking during the b-ball game!
raven @ 239
Yea, when I went there it was about 75% Japanese tourists. My old man fought from the Canal to Okinawa on a Navy APD so my interest in the Pacific is great.
Most Saturdays, I would get up and run/walk down to the Kam Highway then mostly walk back up the mountain. Invariably, I would have to dodge the japanese tourist getting off the tour buses at th PCC club house where they could get picture of Pearl Harbor and the Arizona Memorial. Then after my showere, I would walk back down to the Pearl Ridge Shopping Center. Both sides of the center had Famous Amos bakerys and I would pick up a 1/4 pound of fresh chocolate chip/macadamia nut cookies and eat the bag as I walked back home. Awesome…
CTuttle @ 227
It has occured to me….
DaKineo1, Ironically, you would have to win the lottery to Afford a piece!!!
Most Saturdays, I would get up and run/walk down to the Kam Highway then mostly walk back up the mountain. Invariably, I would have to dodge the japanese tourist getting off the tour buses at th PCC club house where they could get picture of Pearl Harbor and the Arizona Memorial. Then after my showere, I would walk back down to the Pearl Ridge Shopping Center. Both sides of the center had Famous Amos bakerys and I would pick up a 1/4 pound of fresh chocolate chip/macadamia nut cookies and eat the bag as I walked back home. Awesome…
killer
Frank Probst @ 212
Charges against whom? The four leakers? A charge against the Shooter wouldn’t have stuck, because there’s no proof that he ordered the leak. If you shoot at the king, you better not miss.
Everyone keeps assuming that Fitz is done. I really don’t think so. He just nailed Scooter Libby to the wall. The head of the CIA just said that Plame was covert. The whole thing is in open hearings in Congress. Fitz is going to be able to argue at the sentencing that Plame was a covert officer and that Libby was just convicted of lying about his role in leaking her identity during a war. That’s damn close to treason, and Fitz is going to be able to say so. Libby and his lawyers know all of this. They also know that Waxman is continuing to dig into this, AND into the whole Niger farce. He can either flip, or he can go down as the Benedict Arnold of his time.
Oh, Frank. I so hope you are right. Sure seems like it to me. Benedict Arnold…
Eli @ 241
Ironically, if *I* hit the lottery, I’m moving back to New York…
Ah Eli, you just don’t understand the allure of teh islands. Perpetual summer, soft breezes, the temp falls to 60 and you’re COLD, people as friendly as anywhere (even though it was the first place I had ever personally been discriminated against as a white man – very educational in that respect)…
raven @ 234
Yes, after World War II, Punchbowl was declared a National Cemetery for veterans, similar to Arlington. That is where I want my ashes to be interred.
My buddy, Kimo, here in Athens went back a couple of years ago to plan his burial. I guess because he is half-Hawaiian he can be buried there (and a Nam vet).
You don’t have to be Hawaiian, just be a vet who served in WWI, Korea, or Nam, to be buried there. It is breathtakingly beautiful. On Memorial Day, the Lost Wingman formation flies over from Hickam Field, and that is also breathtaking.
CTuttle @ 246
And not just a small $1M prize either. I’ve half way figured it would take something in the $10M range to truly live nicely (nice condo, annual trips back to the mainland when rock fever hits), etc…
Rock
I like that, a lot
Yes, after World War II, Punchbowl was declared a National Cemetery for veterans, similar to Arlington. That is where I want my ashes to be interred.
My buddy, Kimo, here in Athens went back a couple of years ago to plan his burial. I guess because he is half-Hawaiian he can be buried there (and a Nam vet).
You don’t have to be Hawaiian, just be a vet who served in WWI, Korea, or Nam, to be buried there. It is breathtakingly beautiful. On Memorial Day, the Lost Wingman formation flies over from Hickam Field, and that is also breathtaking.
My boy gets a little confused now and then, know what I’m sayin?
as far as “not bringing to trial because you know your evidence will be lost to graymail”
sorry, if this were the case then we wouldn’t bring to trial organized crime figures because we know they will intimidate our witnesses
gramail is a tactic that must be exposed and rendered useless
this can only be done when that tactic is exposed as harmfull to our country
sorry, these charges must be brought, the wheels of justice must turn and they must be lubricated when we find they don’t turn proper
dakine01 @ 248
This actually does not hold much appeal for me. I want seasons and grunge and cranky people.
Eli @ 255
This actually does not hold much appeal for me. I want seasons and grunge and cranky people.
I got a carribean soul I can barely control!
Couldn’t the ‘criminal’ aspect of Plamegate be pursued by Waxman via Fitz’s open ‘Plenary power’, by committee vote, or doesn’t Waxman have sole authority to issue subpoenas without a committee vote?
raven @ 255
I have a cold-blooded New Yorker’s soul. I never felt real comfortable in California either.
gah!
Scahill just pointed out that Dems want 40,000 troops home by a date certain, but bushco could just hire more mercenaries from Blackwater…
but where’s the $$$
lolo @ 237
Terry is that you?
No Lolo. I need the rules!
Eli @ 255
This actually does not hold much appeal for me. I want seasons and grunge and cranky people.
Ah, well, there were many like you when I was there. They would have the “Ho-hum, just another sh*tty day in paradis) bumper stickers.
For me, growing up in Kentucky, I always loved the late spring early summer days where the temp would get to lo-mid 80s, breezes, middlin’ humidity and everything was the deep green. That’s what Hawaii was like year round. I spent the first 6 months that I was there just walking around with the floral smells and everything wearing a big sh*eatin’ grin because I was in Hawaii with palm trees and summer and it was January.
Eli @ 258
yea, I’ve been in Georgia for 25 years after 20 in Champaign and growing up in LA. We got lot’s of season here. The frickin green pine pollen is so thick they are calling it the “yellow final four”. I like it her cuz the seasons do change but the hawk doesn’t stay long.
angie @ 259
And those mercs would cost about 3 times what a comparable number of active troops would cost…
dakine01 @ 260
Well, jeez, at least I wouldn’t be trying to bring people down. I’d just stay away. Or try to develop some skills at taking pictures of natural beauty, which I kinda suck at. Cars, buildings, and industrial grunge, I can do.
lolo@237…….Terry is that you?
No. Just a fly on the wall who gets really pissed off when bloggers arbitrarily backhand Fitzgerald as “just a lawyer.” He’s accomplished, brillant, and lives and breathes his job. Hell, he brought down Cheney’s righthand go to guy Libby, considering the depth and breadth of lying and corruption in this republican WH administration. Fitz is the real deal.
dakine01 @ 263
even more from what Scahill says.
This is an astonishing and terrible, terrible practice, imho.
WTH– worse than Halliburton…
perris @ 254
You still have admissable evidence even if they try (operative word being ry) to inimidate your witness,
You will not have admissable evidence if they whack you witness, so no, then you cannot bring to trial.
Greymail is more like whacking he witnesd, only it’d not itd own seprate crime (like murder)
Ah, DaKine01, I’m a ha’ole, a Kama Aina ha’ole, raised in rural Ka’u, I was definately discriminated by the ignorant ones, however it made me a stronger person for it! P.S. My sister and I were the only ha’oles in Ka’u High!
CTuttle @ 257
I wouldn’t worry, I think Waxman will have the votes he needs
CTuttle @ 268
Oughta be a book in there somewhere.
CTuttle @
268
Working in the acctg office, we had a lot of local civilians. There were 2 GIs coming in at about the same time. One was named Young from the Big Island and the other named Lee from the mainland. All the civilians were so sure what was going on. Until 2 ha’oles walked in the door. You should have seen the jaws drop that a Kama Aina named Young from the Big Island was a ha’ole!
Maybe off topic, maybe not. But it seems to me that if Carl and his crew kept their e-mails off the WH system, then someone (Waxman) can go after them (the e-mails). In watergate, the answers were in the tapes. Here the answers might very well be in the e-mails, which I’m sure he knows. Just thinking out loud. Oh, and by the way, the “hostages” taken by Iran. Well, maybe they could rent space at Gitmo to keep them as illegal combatants….or render them to, uh, Egypt. That’d be fun.
Terry Olson @ 260
No Lolo. I need the rules!
Pick a name
Clear your cache
Type it in
New identity
Drive us crazy trying to guess
RockPaperScizzors @ 265
WHen I say PAt is just a lawyer, it’s not a backhand at him. He has no greater admirerer than me.
It’s just that people expec too much from him. They expect to do things beyond his authority.
People on this threa are so frustrated and disappointed because he will not stretch the envelope and try to assume powers unto himself that are not clearly his.
The remedies that he is able to provide are limited to those that can be provided by a lawyer.
For a superhero, you gotta turn to comic books.
cynic @ 272
Thanx, Raven, You’re too kind! I do enjoy the seasons change, I’ve been to the White Mountains, stood on top of the Old Man…, during the height of Autumn, Skied the Austrian Alps and experienced the DMZ in Korea during the middle of the winter(BRRR!). However, no place beats the Big Isle!!!
CTuttle @ 276
I spent 13 months at Camp Hartell, just south of the Munsan Railhead in 67-68. Joe came across in the Blue House Raid in January and we spent a week trudgin up and down chasin their asses. Neime sheeme peck pogi da! (spelling?) Ps
I almost died one morning on the Franconia Knotch!
Got my invite from the Regis Bar Association:
I am pleased to announce that Patrick Fitzgerald (’78), U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Illinois and Special Counsel in the CIA leak investigation, will be the guest speaker at the Regis Bar Association dinner to be held on Thursday, October 4 at Regis High School
Looking forward to it.
looseheadprop @ 274
We love the Fitz. We respect the Fitz. We are grateful. We just want more. As far as I am concerned…Fitzmas came.
beerfart liberal @ 278
lucky
lolo @ 280
dog
There is the “Rule of Law” and then there is the “Rude of Law.”
The “Rude of Law” was used in going after President Bill Clinton, with Ken Starr being the rudest and crudest practitioner of the “Rude of Law.”
The “Rude of Law” was when five Supreme Court justices maliciously and speciously intervened in the 2000 Florida recount, essentially butting into a presidential election after the Florida Supreme Court had ruled to let the recount continue.
The “Rude of Law” is the Justice Department under Alberto Gonzeles, following his stint as the “Rude of Law” chief counselor to President Bush.
And then there are all the “Rule of Law” practitioners, shining examples of American jurisprudence, defenders of the U.S. Constitution.
Patrick Fitzgerald.
Eight U.S. Attorneys who were unceremoniously fired on Dec. 7, 2006, a day that will live in infamy in American jurisprudence.
John Dean.
All the Watergate prosecutors who brought down the second most corrupt presidency in American history…as compared to the current presidency which is making Nixon’s look like it was nothing more than a warm-up act.
Anyway, this is just a short list of those I feel should be in the “Rule of Law” Hall of Fame versus the ones who should be in the “Rude of Law” Hall of Infamy or Hall of Shame.
Goodness, Raven, we’ve trod the same paths, meseems, I’ve been to Munsan on manuvers, I was stationed at Camp Hovey! Almost died at Franconia notch, it’s so narrow? Were you hiking on either ridge?
angie @ 266
Wonder what the Founders would say about
… a standing large private army of mercenaries – the only such army in the Republic
… mercenaries trained at the Treasury’s expense
… supported by Treasury contracts
… commanded by a Dominionist religious zealot publicly oppposed to the Republic and the Constitution.
Of course, from the Authoritarian Bushie perspective, Blackwater is just what the fundies ordered.
Wonder when the Dems will outlaw standing private military forces in the United States of America?
“..to provide for the common defense…”
CTuttle @ 276
Being from Oahu, the first time I went to the Big Island and saw Kamuela, a high mountainous area where the air is pure and the light transcendently lucid, and the clouds drifting lazily by below you, I thought I had died and ended up in Heaven.
Oops, I should not have said that. Now everybody who reads this thread will want to go to Kamuela.
Everybody, that is, except Eli.
lolo @
26
I’m interested in the pardon from another angle: if Bush were to pardon Libby, could Fitz or the next AG/USA call Libby to testify again? He can’t plead any reason to not answer questions which might have shown up since his trial, maybe including what he has to say to get the pardon.
What about Congress? Could they attempt to exercise oversight to see how this can be prevented in the future? I would like to see higher standards for elected and appointed officials in disclosing this type of info: sources and methods.
CTuttle @ 283
I was by myself, summer of 70. Hitched up from Boston after seeing the Allman Bros on the common. I hiked up from the Kangamangus Highway. Didn’t know what the hell I was doing. I camped on one of the tent platforms down from the ridge. When I got up in the morning a went back up the wind was blowin like a mofo. I could see the TOPS of the clouds over the cliffs and the wind just picked me up and slammed me down. I literally crawled to where I could get footing.
When were you in the land of the morning calm? You ever see this site?
Tour
I have some pix on the 1/79th Arty page.
dreamcatcher @
285
His loss :})
LHP–I am very late to this thread. But I want you to know that I am a huge fan, and really enjoy your contributions and insight.
Re Plenary powers (apologies if someone has already made this point, though I know that you alluded to this in your post): I always thought it ironic that Fitz didn’t have the same latitude that special prosecutors did under the “special prosecutor act” (whatever it was called) that was put into place after Watergate (due to the Sat Night Massacre).
Even so, had he had those powers, Fitz is no Ken Starr.
Fitz obviously has carefully studied the Constitution, and he knows that ultimately, the responsibility and the power (as you pointed out) lies with the Congress and the People. He made that clear in his press conference, and it seems clear that Leahy, Conyers and Waxman were listening. Though I would like to hope that Sen Rockerfeller was also paying attention.
Dreamcatcher, you’re right it is beautiful in Kamuela, you used the proper (read local) name in most contemporary maps it’s Waimea! But, they don’t install fireplaces in most homes in Kamuela for beauty, it is a necessity in January, being situated at about 6,000 ft. level!
Camp Hovey Warrior Country
looseheadprop @ 267
that’s not the way the graymail defense plays out loosehedprop
the government will have admissable evidence, the officials charged will claim in order to mount a complete defense they need to admit evidence that is top secret, the judge rules that evindence is indeed neccessary and does need to be admitted
the prosecution then allows the point in order to overcome the graymail defense
therefore, the charges must be brought and the graymail defense needs to be brought under the looking glass where that tactic can be corrected by the doj and congress
the fact that the tactic is successfull doesn’t mean it can’t be corrected
it won’t get corrected until the problem is demonstrated
Woodhall Hollow, the reason Fitz is not Starr, is the ‘Special Prosecutor’ role was sunsetted by congressional inaction, not sure entirely, two years ago???? But it expired nontheless!
kirk murphy @ 284– thanks for your comment.
That interview was even more powerful than the others I have seen.
This is crazy– they are operating in 9 countries and here at home! They are hiring foreign mercs to expand their ranks.
They don’t have any rules, are not subject to discipline or the UCMJ … Waxman has been looking into this since 2004 and on in Feb did he get any answers at all, and he’s still digging.
(Clinton apparently used some of these mercs in Bosnia, too.)
Raven, sure ‘nuf, 2nd ID, second to none, 5/5 ADA, 1991-1992!!! What’s it going to be OState/Florida or OState/UCLA?
CTuttle @ 293
Starr was an “independent prosecutor” as opposed to Fitz’s “special prosecutor.” Unless I am mistaken Starr had more latitute of action, and was not under the direct control of the AG.
Someone correct me if I am wrong.
CTuttle @ 295
Looks like the Bruins just don’t have the offense to make it.
We were strange, 105 outfit from the 7th ID but we were attached to the Indian Head Division. There were nothing but gravel roads north of Seoul in those days. We would shoot at Santa Barbara range and drive all the way to TDC for ammo. shoot me an email sometime
markann at hotmail dot com
raven is actually our sweet old cocker spaniel!
Nice to see you back LHP. Always enjoy your work.
looseheadprop @ 274
WHen I say PAt is just a lawyer, it’s not a backhand at him. He has no greater admirerer than me.
It’s just that people expec too much from him. They expect to do things beyond his authority.
People on this threa are so frustrated and disappointed because he will not stretch the envelope and try to assume powers unto himself that are not clearly his.
The remedies that he is able to provide are limited to those that can be provided by a lawyer.
For a superhero, you gotta turn to comic books.
I disagree, the “remedies provided” are limited to the legal framework and penal codes therein. You refer to his status as a lawyer, but he’s more than that, Fitz serves as the district’s top federal law enforcement official. He nailed Gov. Ryan’s ass to the wall along with 59 people of Ryan’s campaign committee that were convicted all in connection with the license for bribe scandal that began with the deaths of six children in one family in a fiery accident on a Wisconsin expressway involving a trucker who may have bought his drivers license. Ryan thought he was untouchable and that his minions would protect him. Instead they all went down like dominoes. Catching Ryan took years. I think this will happen with Plamegate.
I have to laugh about your description of Fitz as “he’s just a lawyer, not a superhero; wears a rumpled suit, not tights and a cape.”
Superman description: As Clark Kent, Superman lives among humans as a “mild-mannered reporter” for the Metropolis newspaper The Daily Planet….
The dichotomy of what he appears to be versus his accomplishments. Where do you think he stashes his tights and cape?
Raven, ehh, I can’t hear you, did you say Artillery??? I intimately remember Tong Du Chon, wait is that my wife? Gotta Go….
Eli @ 258
*****
Awww
dreamcatcher @
296
You are correct. The Independent Prosecutor law was a reaction to the Saturday Night Massacre of Watergate fame but after it was extended and used in Iran/Contra and then to abuse Clinton and his admin, it expired a few years ago. The last Independent prosecutor under that law was the one prosecuting Henry Cisneros and he milked the law for some $20M plus and continued “investigating” for I think 6 or 7 years after Cisneros pled to a misdemeanor.
Eli asked @216
“Which powers-that-be would those be? Is there *anyone* in the Executive branch that wants Fitz to go any further? Can Waxman give him a new assignment?”
That’s my question. Originally, CIA made complaint to FBI; FBI is compelled to investigate; the original appointment of Spec. Pros. was objected to by the Exec. branch; Ashcroft recused himself; Fitz was appointed. (that’s my non-professional recollection). So based on what I know, along with my understanding of how things work, why can’t it be repeated if necessary, and why couldn’t it be written to dovetail into where Libby left off? It’s just a hypothetical (and now perhaps doomed to EPU).
Whatever the answer, my gut says there’s a rat’s nest laying just below the surface here. I don’t think Fitz has closed the book, and I think he was hamstrung during Libby.
After Libby, he said he was ‘going back to his day job’. His day job is busting big crime.
Bay State Librul @
24
I don’t know that he’s legally allowed to do that. Doesn’t lawyer-client confidentiality extend past any employment arrangement. (Okay, I’m basing my opinion on the Tom Cruise movie [The Firm?] but give me a break.)
If it were that easy, any lawyer who defended a client found not guilty could say “Hey, he’s not paying me anymore and he really did (whatever)”
If I’m wrong, okay, but I hope I’m right. I hope that’s how the system works.
Gunga din, I whole-heartedly agree with you on the notion, that the fat lady didn’t sing yet! The rat’s nest, or should I say; ‘thats another tree that has a cat up it!!! Me thinks that the RNC servers are the vertiable nixon tapes!
lolo @ 44
I saw a photo of Fitz smiling very nicely at Gonzo, too. I guess don’t know what he’s thinking about Gonzo, but I’m fairly confident Gonzo is not his hero. However, whatever his feelings about the AG, he was at work on a panel about serious subject matter, and frowning or glaring wouldn’t have been appropriate. It’s wonderful to see a grown man at work, ain’t it?
“…There were some deferred e-mails that were produced by the White House very late
in the investigation, that in fact in part triggered the expansion that earlier in the appointment of the special counsel, I understand. And you stand by the statement that all government agencies cooperated and was the delay of the e-mails (inaudible) or purposeful, getting looked at?”
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/…..erence.pdf
“…This is different.This was a situation where the conversation between the official and the reporter may have been a crime itself. It wasn’t someone saying, “Hey, so and so is doing
something really, really awful down the hall, but I may get fired if I tell you.” If you’re — transmitting classified information is the crime itself. But also the reporter is the eyewitness. And what I think people don’t appreciate is we interviewed lots of people –very high officials before we ever went to reporters.”
[quaint wars: no truth, no justice]
“…QUESTION: In the absence of independent counsel statute, there’s been no suggestion here of political interference and the Attorney General and the previous Attorney General both recused themselves. But I’m wondering, after what you’ve been through, whether you think the special counsel rules under which you conducted this investigation gave you the absolute assurances that you needed throughout the whole process that there could not possibly be political interference for your team by this or any future Justice Department?
MR.FITZGERALD: Let me put it even more starkly. There was no political interference whatsoever with my team or our work on this case. That’s all I can vouch for.
Yes,sir.
QUESTION: Did Harriet Miers’ withdrawal yesterday have anything to do with the timing of your indictment today? (Laughter.)
MR.FITZGERALD: No.”
http://www.andyfoulds.co.uk/flash_design.html
see the “amusements” especially “leader of the free world”
(andy is my HERO)
CTuttle @
300
Keep up the fire!
http://scoop.epluribusmedia.or…..22612/9031
Did you see this about the dual ip for gwb43.com?
P J Evans @ 110
Jeez — I just had a fabulous dinner and you made me hungry again.
raven @ 287
It’s a killer hike. My knees two times almost gave out going up the Laughing Waters trail. The view is almost worth it. I hate eastern trails. Give me the West any day. They’re more forgiving.
Oh, another addition to my “Rule of Law” Hall of Fame:
Everyone at firedoglake, especially the “Rule of Law” attorneys who post or comment and who keep us abreast of the “Rule of Law.” A tip of my hat to all of you. Your insight and informed discourses have helped me in my debates with any “Rude of Law,” “Republican talking points” wingnuts I chance to meet. Better to armed with the truth and the “Rule of Law” than anything the wingnuts have to offer. Our democracy depends on it.
lolo @ 309, in skimming thru, my blood boiled when I saw Rove had the where-with-all for Ohio’s live streaming vote tallying results. Simply chilling, as ‘04 hinged on Ohio, as Florida did in ‘00(similarly with Jeb and Kathleen!)!!! With the same dismal outcome!
CTuttle @ 313
I know but scroll down to the part where there are 2 ips linked. To Agah Kahn
Knut @ 311, it is a rigorous hike, however, when I hiked in Estes Park, I was dreaming of the Eastern Presidential Range. The Big Isle has Two 13,000 Footers, Mauna Kea and Mauna Loa, They ain’t no walks in the park either, but, they are more impressive to behold than any mountain range I’ve visited!!! I’ve seen most of the Rockies from the Dona Anas in El Paso to Jasper Park in B.C./Alta.! The French/Swiss/Austrian/German Alps, and last but not least, most of Appalachia, from Georgia to Maine!
Knut @ 311
I hate eastern trails. Give me the West any day. They’re more forgiving.
Jeebus, I only get to go up and down Cardiac Hill in downtown LA (it’s about a six-story climb in one block), and not often doing it, either.
There are plenty of options that the Congress can pursue, so Fitz doesn’t need to don a Superman suit.
The hearing with Gonzales should be quite interesting.
And happy April Fools Day to those in the Eastern time zone — no relation to the above.
Eli @
216
Well, at the risk of being EPU’d, no one in the Nixon administration wanted to name Leon Jaworski as independent prosecutor, either. But they had to, because of the public outcry. This leads us to looseheadprop’s main point: WE have a job to do.
Bob in HI
dakine01 @
240
Winning the lottery is about what you need to do to afford a house here.
Speaking of New York minutes, Waikiki is like Manhattan with a beach. Only more fun. Kalakaua is alive 24/7 within half a mile or more of the Duke’s statue.
Bob in HI
CTuttle @
184
Aiea close proximity to Schofield barracks??? Not by local standards. The barracks are up in Wahiawa, in the middle of Oahu, in the Up country. The freeway ends there. Aiea is part of metro Honolulu. True, its only about 15 miles or so, but in local geographical terms, its a long way!
Bob in HI
looseheadprop @
245
LHP,
Thanks for staying around to respond to questions!
Bob in HI
CTuttle @
276
I kinda like the Maui upcountry. But then I recently spent 17 years in Flagstaff, AZ at 7,000 feet, where we had real seasons, big temperature swings between night and afternoon, so each day started out fresh and invigorating. The days are all too much alike here for me. and I’m spending more in rent on a one-bedroom apartment here than I spent in monthly mortgage payments on a 3-bedroom house with a double garage and a family room in Flagstaff.
I’ve been on both sides of Big Island, but only along the coastal strip. Big Island has nice variety, but its hard to get around.
Bob in HI
I don’t know whether this will be helpful, but I have some additional information on the Plame/Fitzgerald matter.
My reading of James Comey’s Feb. 2004 memo is different from LHP’s. I am not an attorney so I defer to LHP’s greater knowledge of law—but still, I see a different message in there:
“[My delegation of authority to you] is plenary, and includes the authority to investigate and prosecute violations of ANY federal criminal laws related to the underlying alleged unauthorized disclosure, AS WELL AS federal crimes committed… with the intent to interfere with your investigation…”
Since obstruction is specified in that passage as an additional crime to investigate, it stands as separate from the other phrase “violations of ANY federal criminal laws related to the…unauthorized disclosure”. So for example if Fitz, while investigating the Plame leak, were to come across evidence that someone in the administration was behind the forgery of the yellowcake document, and that forgery violated federal law, perhaps he would be authorized to pursue that crime—because it is related to the unauthorized disclosure. It would be a part of a whole conspiracy. Plame’s exposure might have been carried out to dissuade others from leaking information which might expose the forger. The connection is clear. And suppose the crime of treason were also discovered in the course of Fitz’s investigation? Suppose for example Cheney and others purposely exposed Brewster-Jennings, not just to punish Joe Wilson, but also and more importantly because the CIA’s WMD-counterproliferation unit was coming dangerously close to exposing weapons-smuggling and terrorist operations organized by the PNAC neocons? Surely that would be a crime Fitz could legitimately pursue—but of course the sticky wicket is, how do you pursue powerful men for a capital crime, when they control the executive branch including the Justice Department which employs you?
We’re down the rabbit hole; this thing just keeps getting more interesting. Fitz has said he plans no more indictments unless further evidence comes to light. But I don’t hear in there “This case is closed for good, end of story”—and I don’t hear “No other indictments currently exist.” I recall that flap last spring when TruthOut’s Jason Leopold wrote a series of articles reporting that Rove had been indicted, but the indictment appeared to have evaporated for some reason. Rove’s attorney denied the indictment but he would not produce the letter from Fitz which he claimed exonerated his client. And there was talk of a sealed indictment, Sealed v. Sealed—-sealed on both ends for top secrecy, a most unusual thing. If it’s true that such an indictment exists, the double-ended seal means nobody can have access to it, not even officials of the Justice Department, until the judge orders it—usually at the request of the prosecutor when conditions are right for arrest and trial. Sealed indictments are used for tactical reasons, when the prosecutor wants to avoid tipping off the defendant and his associates. Thus the indicted person continues to walk free, unaware that he’s been indicted. This may go on for months or even years as the investigation continues. The statute of limitations may even run out on the crime, so the guy thinks he’s safe—but he can be tried and convicted as long as the indictment was filed on time, and it will hold up on appeal.
Is there a sealed indictment of Rove, waiting to be sprung at some later date? Are there indictments of Cheney and others?
Now if that didn’t blow your mind, let me tell you about “presentments”. The Constitution provides for grand juries to have the power, on their own, to investigate crimes committed by government officials and to call for their arrest and trial. It’s called a presentment. It’s an alternative to the indictment (which is always spearheaded by a prosecutor), and its purpose is to circumvent corrupt officials including prosecutors who might obstruct the process. Thus a grand jury can, entirely on its own initiative, question witnesses and subpoena documents and make a determination that a crime has occurred. Some have speculated that Fitz feared he would be replaced and so he educated the grand jury on this special power of presentments and left them to do their work on a particular area of the investigation independently—say, the matter of Cheney and treason? Presumably the grand jury would not be constrained by the specific bounds of Fitz’s authority, and they would not have to report to him their findings. They could ask the judge for their presentment to be double-sealed (concealing their role as its source), and the result would be that Fitz would have no obligation to report on it to his boss—because he would have no independent knowledge of what they had done. Thus he could announce to the public that no further indictments are expected unless new information comes to light—leaving Rove & company blissfully unaware of their legal peril. Some have speculated that Fitz got the judge’s permission to reveal an indictment to Rove last year, then re-seal it so that only Rove and his lawyer would know about it. The purpose would be to gain Rove’s secret cooperation in ratting out others. Prosecutors do this all the time.
(But we know Karl is an honorable guy, don’t we? He would never rat on his associates just to save his own skin.)
I know I’m a first-timer here and this is a long post, but I wanted to share all this information. I have links on these legal facts if anyone wants them. Maybe there’s nothing to it, but I can’t get over the feeling that there’s more to this thing than we know, and maybe more to be revealed in the future.
Many thanks to LHP, Christy, Marcy, TRex et al. for your kick-ass commentary. This is a great web site.
Bob, You’re right it is the same clime as upcountry Maui, Haleakala is a worthwhile journey to see sunrise in the morn. I remember being very relieved to arrive in Flagstaff, after Phoenix/Mesa drive to see my Mom receive her PHD from NAU, I,also, was very impressed with the nearby ‘little’ chasm!!!
I also read the plenary powers granted to Fitz differently.
For example, as a result of the Plame hearing we’ve now learned everyone in the WH known to have been involved did NOT follow Bush’s own Executive Order as pertains to the handling of classified information. This would include Bush himself, It is my understanding that Fitz is charged with the authority to investigate this related matter and prosecute all violators of this EO.
Cassandra, you raise some very good points, I’m going to look into the ‘presentments’ clause you speak of, I’m an edumacated paralegal. What you say rings true, and I specifically noted in my earliest blogs that, I hadn’t heard ‘the fat lady sing’!!!
They couldn’t get the CIA to do it because that would be like cutting off their own arm. They couldn’t do it themselves because that’d be grounds for treason. So they had own of their own OUT her of a piece of official document from a competitive(in-house) intelligence branch within the State. It gave them the grounds to bring her “status” into question.
Brilliant play in politics unless you were the target of such an action.
Politics is a dirty business! You’ve got to love it to appreciate it!!
YOU’LL NOT HER THIS LINE OF TRUTH from her publishers nor Warner Bros. if they’ve not been bought, wines and dined by interests linked to the conservative party, or even from the democratic one they’ve called their own.
Google “invest_mavin”
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