
In this image made available by the Ministry of Defence in London, Wednesday, March 28, 2007, a GPS device shows the location of the incident involving 15 Royal Navy personnel, as seen from a Royal Navy helicopter over the merchant vessel in the Shatt al-Arab waterway on Sunday March 25. Vice Admiral Charles Style told a press conference in London, that the naval boats were 1.7 nautical miles (2 miles; 3.1 kilometers) inside Iraqi waters when Iran seized their 15 crew members, supporting Prime Minister Tony Blair's contention that the captured personnel had not crossed into Iranian territory, as Tehran claims. (AP Photo/Ministry of Defence)
Boy is this confusing …. or should I say … was confusing until the British Ministry of Defense displayed that great photo. Now it's all completely clear to me … the upstanding young sailors, on the lookout for car smugglers and otherwise minding their own business … or Iraq's business or … well, someone's business … were kidnapped from Iraqi waters by those nefarious Iranians. After all, the UK MOD has shown us a "GPS device" showing the "location of the incident." Phew! Now we know all we need to know … we have, after all, seen the pictures.
Oh but wait, you say … Seems there's more to the story … Like that oh-so-convincing vial of something that Powell proudly displayed to the UN, our "evidence" is perhaps a bit less than it seems. In fact, there are a few problems with this photo.
First, we have the report on CNN that the photo was not taken during the event at all but was shot afterwards – they don't say how long afterwards but they assure us … and of course, we believe then … that the ship being searched "had not moved since the incident." So there you have it … photo showing hand holding GPS shows ship in Iraqi waters. And we know it's in Iraqi waters because we've been shown a map:
Not quite says Barry Lando:
The BBC for instance has already interviewed a supposed expert regarding the map, who vouched for its authenticity. … Turns out the expert had been referred to the BBC by the British Ministry of Defense–who also turned out the plan. Sounds like the rerun of a bad movie we’ve already seen.
And Lando points to Craig Murray, former British Ambassador, who reminds us of an uncomfortable fact:
The British Government has published a map showing the coordinates of the incident, well within an Iran/Iraq maritime border. The mainstream media and even the blogosphere has bought this hook, line and sinker. But there are two colossal problems. A) The Iran/Iraq maritime boundary shown on the British government map does not exist. It has been drawn up by the British Government. Only Iraq and Iran can agree their bilateral boundary, and they never have done this in the Gulf, only inside the Shatt because there it is the land border too. This published boundary is a fake with no legal force. B) Accepting the British coordinates for the position of both HMS Cornwall and the incident, both were closer to Iranian land than Iraqi land. Go on, print out the map and measure it.
In fact, Craig Murray goes on to note:
Sadly, but perhaps predictably, both the British and Iranian governments are now acting like idiots. Tony Blair has let it be known that he is "utterly confident" that the British personnel were in Iraqi waters. He has of course never been known for his expertise in the Law of the Sea. But let us contrast this political certainty with the actual knowledge of the Royal Navy Commander of the operation on which the captives were taken. Before the spin doctors could get to him, Commodore Lambert said: "There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that they were in Iraqi territorial waters. Equally, the Iranians may well claim that they were in their territorial waters. The extent and definition of territorial waters in this part of the world is very complicated"
Commodore Lambert is not the only one who didn't get the talking points in time. While the US commanders have been assuring everyone that the naval war games which just happen to be taking place in the Gulf have nothing whatsoever to do with this incident, it seems Kevin Aandahl , a spokesman for the U.S. Fifth Fleet based in the Gulf island of Bahrain got his fax from Washington late too:
"The planning accelerated in conjunction with what was going on, but it was absolutely not the sole determinant … We are here exercising every day…If Iran takes away a message from this, that's up to them…Our exercise is absolutely a short notice exercise."…The Fifth Fleet base in Bahrain is the command center for the roughly 30 U.S. and 15 allied ships patrolling regional waters, including areas right on Iran's doorstep.
In the midst of all this oh-so-reassuring and completely convincing news, there's another piece of this puzzle that we won't hear on the MSM – the fact that the US has been holding six Iranian Diplomats since January 11 (as well as two others since December):
U.S.-led multinational forces detained six Iranians Thursday at an Iranian government office in the northern city of Irbil, Iraqi officials said… The forces entered the building about 3 a.m., detaining the Iranians and confiscating computers and documents, two senior local Kurdish officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the information….. A person who lives near the building said the troops had used stun bombs and brought down an Iranian flag from the roof. As the operation went on, two helicopters flew overhead, the resident said on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisals. … The regional Kurdish government condemned the arrests and called for the immediate release of the Iranians.
As Ian Welsh of The Agonist writes, this is a Tit For Tat Hostage Crisis:
The US has been playing "catch and release" and sometimes just "catch" with Iranian nationals for some time – including seizing diplomats, who should be even more "off limits" than soldiers. No one in the West seemed to give a damn about that, so any screaming and whining and outrage about grabbing the sailors is just hypocrisy (snip) Why should only the West be allowed to grab hostages but if someone else does it's some great outrage? None of this is to say that Iran should have grabbed hostages. It may have been a very stupid thing to do. But it's not some great moral outrage – it's just tit-for-tat. The US has been seizing Iranians more or less arbitrarily, and holding them in more isolated circumstances than these soldiers are being held in. I doubt the soldiers are being tortured – who knows what has been done to the Iranians seized.
Ian went on to say in the comments:
The coalition picked this fight, dared Iran to do anything, and now that the Iranians did something are acting like they are innocent victims. No, I don't think I'm all that outraged, and I don't think most Muslims are either, since unlike in the US, they remember who "started it".
And that's the only piece of this whole incident that makes perfect sense to me.
Related posts:
- Thirty Years Ago Today… and Today
- Valuing Democracy: Iran, Iraq and the War Supplemental
- Iran: Don’t Lead, Don’t Follow, and Instead Get Out of the Way
- House Voting on Iran Resolution; Human Rights Activist Not Against It, But…
- Second Iranian Nuclear Facility Discovered; Obama, Brown, Sarkozy Pledge Sanctions Unless IAEA is Allowed to Investigate





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Siun!
Most excellent.
Um, is it me, or does that GPS unit have my name on it?
Thanks Angie
and Trex … they knew we wouldn’t believe them unless it was a really reputable GPS!
This definitely seems like a game of chicken for both sides… one that isn’t going to end well either way.
I am liking this. ;0)!
Evening, Siun (now scrolling up to read the post)
Sorry, this got EPU’d…
I can’t believe it’s Thursday night already and I’ve just barely started writing up the talk I attended last Sunday. Tanya Erzen, who did an ethnographic study of a resident ex-gay program, and published a book entitled Straight to Jesus: Sexual and Christian Conversions in the Ex-Gay Movement spoke at my church on Sunday night.
Anyway, I’ve posted the first part, which is about how the “religious right” uses the ex-gay movement to promote its agenda.
Hoping to get at least one more section posted tonight, about the program itself, and what it involves.
Hey Suzanne – good to see you out front!
angie @ 1
angie… you’re OK.
GULF OF TONKIN.
Speaking of that old war, today is (I think) the anniversary of U. S. troops leaving Vietnam.
Cue the helicopters, W.
Military protocol requires photographing your hand holding a GPS device while you’re over a target? Oh sure, that’s believable.
Jim Webb better get busy with his resolution.
Just who do these Bush boys think they’re talking too? Turnips off a truck?
the Nimitz is leaving San Diego and heading for the Gulf – NOW I’m getting worried.
I am supposed to believe based on a photo that was taken not at the time of the incident but was shot afterwards but is declared to be an accurate recreation?
I don’t think so.
This is ALL garbage, I’ve done a bit of GPS work and it follows the rule of any technological tool: garbage in, garbage out. That’s assuming they even have a worthy benchmark to go from.
I am not all that outraged either.
Heck, the British have been disappearing folks in Iraq…
http://gorillasguides.com/2007…..28th-2007/
We’ve engaged in the most awful behavior by paying ransoms for innocents, torturing and renditioning all kinds of folks.
The waters are disputed territory. And why are the British there looking for car smugglers?
And the sovereign *cough* government of Iraq is calling for the release of the sailors.
puhleeze.
OK Kiddo & Suzanne… that was what got to me …. they roll out the big photo and say “gee, we have proof” then say “oh yeah, this photo was taking after but the target did not move”
forget that!
EPU’ed–
Renee in Ohio @ 112
You’ve gotta be the same Renee in Ohio I remember from early netroots 2004 Deaniac days, neh? :) If so, Hi!
Good times now… and better to come I hope. If we can get this maniac NOT to nuke anyone before we fire his ass… :(
OC, that is not a good thing.
dang.
We’re going to wake up one morning soon, turn on the TV to msnbc or whatever and see we’re attacking Iran. Far fetched? Think Iraq. What does the Bush mob have to lose? Now I ask you.
And Trex:
http://www.garmin.com/products/etrex/
Oklahoma kiddo @ 21
That’s a good reason for us to demand that the Bush family serve.
Suzanne @ 20
3 carrier groups is the magic number.
3 carrier groups is the magic number.
OC, yeah, I’m a Navy brat.
EPU’d from from a couple threads back:
=====
To: FDL Team, in seriousness
Fr: S.O.S. from MA
Re: Gabbly or an IM site for FDL?
Folks, I wonder whether you’ve thought of maybe putting a link to some sort of FDL-devoted chat site on the FDL mast-head. You have probably noticed some diminution of the heavy loads on FDL’s server on Those Big Busy days, like Emptywheel Vindication Day, Libby Verdict Day, and today — as some of the more addicted of us were chatting away.
Gabbly has the advantage of being totally on some other server — I have no idea where on the ‘Net, but it’s got a high-bandwidth connection to some backbone — so our using it takes load off of FDL’s servers. OTOH it may reduce FDL hits which drive your ad income… but supporting those extra hits may tax your servers… so it’s a circular proposition and balancing act.
If you’re interested I can create and post a cut-out email addy to discuss this further. Or you can just ignore this if you don’t mind our occasional short invitations to the “FDL Gabbly Site”…
Your supporter and very sincere admirer,
/S.O.S. from MA
=====
… And also EPU’ed from a couple threads back:
curiousgeorge @ 124
At the moment I don’t have enough info to choose… But MyKaroo sounds interesting…
Anyhow, a couple EPUs is all I wanna bug the FDLers with this notion. So, no more… Keep on truckin, and when is your Pulitzer Prize gonna arrive? :)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 21
Every day that I wake up and don’t see this is a good start for the day.
OldCoastie @ 24
please explain.
The Brits are invaders no matter what border they were inside of, Iraq or Iran. We need to stop this foolishness.
Everyone in the world knows Jr. and Blair are doing their best to provoke Iran into something, anything.
We are being led by mean spirited children. Lord Of The Flies goes global.
As always, thank you Siun!
Excellent work, Siun. Does it now seem that the UK is trying to low key this, by taking it to the UN? Looks like they need an intermediary and are hoping someone will step up.
The imagery is interesting too. The US puts two aircraft carrier task forces in waters off Iran to “project American power,” and the Iranians seize UK sailors and there’s nothing the American power can do about it. Sometimes having a decent Ambassador in the other guy’s capital is worth more than an aircraft carrier.
BTW, Wired had an article a month or so ago–no longer have the link–that GPS can be disabled by common electronics you can buy in any Radio Shack. Not good for U.S. bombs which are all guided by GPS coordinates.
Suzanne @ 25
My dad was a civilian, but i grew up on a navy base and livedin navy housing.
GW – conventional wisdom is that it’ll take 3 carrier groups to launch an attack on Iran.
S.O.S. from MA – I’m sure Jane and the rest of the team have seen your comment. There are always extra issues to using such add-ons (traffic meters which equal ad rates which equal support for the blog, etc) but when we have time to look into it, I’ll make sure you get an answer.
OldCoastie @ 33
Sam Gardiner, ex military, writes from time-to-time on theleftcoaster. Keeps track of stuff like carriers movements.
OldCoastie @ 33
bad news!
Siun!
Good work – glad the Lake keeps raising this topic…
;0)
eCAHNomics @ 35
Sam has not been particularly accurate this past couple years.
Most likely explanation: they were testing the waters to see how close they could get and they got too close. This is how it works. Now they know how far they can push and gauge when Iran will react.
Everything else is a charade.
140,000 troops in Iraq, untold thousands of Americans working for contractors and NGO’s, UN personnel, American govt employees –
no, not that they are the least bit concerned with any of those folks – but all those people are dead just for starters
cbl, (turning on snark) but it is not like they are going to lose money on the deal, right? (turning off snark)
Kirk … GMTA! I had missed your comment (actually getting some sleep these days!) but was really struck by all of this too.
I have as much faith in the truth of what Tony Blair tells us, as I do in what his controller George Bush says. I find Mr. Blair extremely distasteful.
OldCoastie @
14
Which makes this post prescient
Thanks for this post, Siun. So good I got my Dad to actually sit at the ‘puter long enough to read it and he is glad he did.
Eureka Springs- v.g. points @29.
cbl @ 40
Well, it would preempt the hearings into Republican corruption. And it brings us that much closer to my biggest fear – the provision that’s still in the “Patriot” Act that gives Bush the capability of declaring martial law. Combined with anyone, say protesting, could then be declared an enemy combatant – no good-bye parties. How can we get these provisions rolled back NOW?
Well Hi Dru’s Dad! welcome aboard!
My party, the Democrats, need to step in and say something like, ‘no money for an attack on Iran’.
cbl @ 40
;0)
Thx. Didn’t know that-only started reading him recently.
It is a pleasure to read you. Keep up the good work!
I sincerely home that the 15 British soldiers are returned safely. That being said, I have a hard time getting worked up about this story. Both sides agree that 15 British soldiers were captured. Britain says there were in Iraqi waters. Iran says there were in Iranian waters. A few questions:
1. Assuming they were captured in Iraqi waters, how is Iran’s detention of these 15 people any different from our detention of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay?
2. Assuming they were captured in Iraqi waters, I’m less interested in what the British government has to say and more interested in what the Iraqi government has to say. What is their position on this? (Memo to BBC: A lot of the Iraqi government, such as it is, lives in London, so it should be easy for you to find someone to interview here.)
3. Are the Iranians following the Geneva Conventions in dealing with the prisoners, or are they adopting the more ‘flexible’ American Standard? If the Brits were outraged about the video showing the prisoners eating a meal, I suspect they’ll be even more upset if there’s video of the prisoners stripped, blindfolded, and smeared with feces.
Ian Welsh’s post was esp good I thought – the Agonist crew does really solid work.
Wow, when I saw that video, I assumed it was the Iranians trying to convince everyone. What a joke.
cbl @ 40
Will the oil be okay?
OT– What about delivering bottles of ginkgo biloba to members of the administration? (Would that even be possible?)
I doubt we will ever know who was where and it certainly will never be proved. I would say it is surprising to me that there has been no informal operational coordination with the Iranians precisely to avoid these kinds of unnecessary confrontations. But then nothing really surprises me anymore about how things are done or not done in Iraq.
There may be a quid pro quo involving an exchange but I can’t help thinking that this originated as a local initiative which, once it happened, was taken over by the authorities in Tehran. These kinds of episodes have an arc where detainees are held until their propaganda value runs out and then they are released.
One aspect of this that is overlooked is that this crisis has had a big impact on oil prices in a market that was looking for a speculative push. Prices surged today to the $66-68 range even though there has been no disruption in the flow of oil and the likelihood for such disruption is actually subsiding. In any case, higher prices are a boon to the Iranians and their ever cash strapped economy. You would think Bush would learn (but, of course, he never does) saber rattling helps the Iranians financially and improves their standing whereas peace lowers oil prices and puts the squeeze on dopey thugs like Ahmadinejad and his bankrupt policies.
Siun @ 42
So glad you’re resting up! (and how kind to be included with your most excellent noggin…..)
I’m glad the good folk at the Guardian have been looking at the same dots – and wondering who actually writes them.
The Ministry of Defense must have heard this:
Frank Probst – very good points!
Maybe we’d like to fill in the world on the condition of the Iranian diplomats we took too … in that 3AM raid on a diplomatic office.
Dick Cheney is probably a mole for Iran. (my best guess, anyway)
The dems need to make Dubya come to Congress and make the case for any more war.
The power to declare war must be reinstated to the people via the Congress.
In 2004, 8 British marines were seized in the same area.
Guess they didn’t learn or it was a deliberate and provocative move. Or maybe they need to update their colonial/imperialist maps.
Either way…….
The lack of a recognized national boundary in that area is a very good thing. It gives both sides a face-saving way to backoff. Neither Britain nor Iran really wants a major incident over this.
It seems a simple matter. If my country wants to start another war, there is no chioce but to go nuclear. Am I wrong on this? And if so, tell me where I’m not right.
Thought experiment: You are the captain of a really big ship and possibly a smuggler. You ship gets raided by 15 British soldiers, then ambused by Iran. When the dust settles, do you:
A) Drop anchor and stay exactly where you are so British helicopters can find you?
or B) Haul your ass out of there?
so basically we don’t know jack about this incident
I think that Bush and the rest are salivating over the prospect of bombing Iran.
RealWorld @
44
When did the Nimitz deploy? Where can the orders be found?
angie @ 61
Wow angie – great catch. I’d love to see that fact up and around the blogosphere.
Might you perchance have a linky?
Bugboy @ 16
I hear you. I like the footnote to the accuracy spec on that Garmin unit. (15m is nice for a recreational GPS unit. 100m is ‘well, it’s here somewhere‘.)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 66
I’m honestly surprised they didn’t do it before the last election. I think that if it doesn’t happen in the next two months, it’s probably not going to happen. But the April 6 date seems like a “good” choice if you’re hellbent on attacking, so I’m more than a little worried.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 63
Bombs away.
That was the origina plan that Hersh wrote up. Subsequent buzz is that generals revolted & plan has been cut back to bunker busters.
Army has gotten all the medals it wants in Iraq, but navy & af are sucking hind tit. So those two services are chompin’ at the bit to show what their made of.
Three carrier groups in the narrow, heavily traveled waters in the Strait is not a good thing. It is an accident waiting (or wanting) to happen.
Nimitz’ group is leaving this Monday… depending on what kinda hurry they are in, should take ‘em a couple weeks to get on station.
Webb needs to hurry his ass up.
here kirk:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03…..mp;ei=5087
Frank Probst @ 70
Is Abu’s date for Senate testimony on the 6th?
This tells me that the dems better hurry up and pass Pelosi’s stand alone against invading Iran. House and Senate. Lickity-splitly.
Are we supposed to believe the British military is using consumer-grade GPS? What a load of horseshit that photo is. For those who aren’t aware, the US military has the ability to disable commercial GPS in any area any time they want. And if they can disable commercial GPS, it’s clear the military would be using military GPS that isn’t affected. Since the UK is our “special friend” I don’t think they’re going to be using anything less.
and now from the other side of the pond kirk:
(bold mine)
http://www.portsmouthtoday.co……tionID=455
kirk murphy – think it’s 4/13, a friday
The Stennis carrier group arrived in the Gulf a day or two ago.
Hugh says:
Bingo
OT, re: Roots Project beta site
If you set up your account and start posting some of your own content to your own blog there, Matt Browner Hamlin and I will be looking daily for original material generated by the community to promote to the front page. You’ll also WIN FREE STUFF.
Well, maybe not, but anyway, it’s next generation Internets that we’re building, and you can be a a part of it. Check it out. So, um, yeah.
the Nimitz can’t make it by the 6th… and the Navy won’t “go” if the 3rd carrier isn’t there… remember that Iran has a HUGE air force and navy… far too risky.
me thinks the date of 4/6 is an internets rumor.
kirk murphy @ 75
april 17th
http://www.latimes.com/news/po…..5179.story
SAN DIEGO — The USS Nimitz and its support ships will depart San Diego on Monday for the Persian Gulf to join another local aircraft carrier strike group already in the region, military officials said.
The nuclear-powered aircraft carrier will join the San Diego-based John C. Stennis Strike Group and relieve the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower, according to Naval Air Forces Public Affairs.
Military officials said in a statement that the two-carrier presence in the Persian Gulf area is intended to demonstrate the country’s “resolve to build regional security and bring long-term stability to the region.”
The Nimitz’s departure comes amid heightened tensions in the region following the detention of 15 British sailors and marines by Iran last week. Iran maintains the detainees were operating in its territorial waters, a charge the British government strongly denies.
While deployed, the crew of the Nimitz will support the war on terrorism, patrol the Horn of Africa and conduct marine security operations as part of the larger effort to “deter and dissuade others from acting counter to U.S. national interests,” according to a Navy statement.
The Nimitz Strike Group is comprised of the guided-missile cruiser Princeton, guided-missile destroyers Higgins, Chafee, John Paul Jones and Pinckney, two helicopter squadrons and an explosive ordnance disposal unit.
The Stennis, and its strike group, left Naval Base Coronado on Jan. 20. The aircraft carrier entered the Persian Gulf Wednesday, according to authorities. It is the largest carrier presence in the area since the start of the war in Iraq.
http://www.10news.com/news/11422067/detail.html
Thanks angie.
Wow.
Not original, but
“first time, shame on you
second time, shame on us”
seems to cover it. For the Brits and for us civilians.
April 6.
Organizing emergency DC protests with one week’s notice would be most challenging.
_______________________________
edit: OldCoastie, thanks for educating us land lubbers. How long would the carrier group take (travel, etc) before they were ready for operations againnst Iran?
“SAN DIEGO — The USS Nimitz and its support ships will depart San Diego on Monday for the Persian Gulf to join another local aircraft carrier strike group already in the region, military officials said.
The nuclear-powered aircraft carrier will join the San Diego-based John C. Stennis Strike Group and relieve the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower, according to Naval Air Forces Public Affairs.”
http://www.10news.com/news/11422067/detail.html
increased oil prices don’t only add to Iranian revenues … thinking a lot of Bush friends are doing well today
NYT – 9/8/02 (Michael R. Gordon and Judith Miller)
“President Bush seems to share the hard-liners’ concerns and, officials say, is determined to resolve the Iraq problem on his watch. In drawing up plans for military action, the administration is preparing to act while Iraq’s conventional forces are still reeling from the effects of United Nations sanctions and the gulf war, while Iraq’s nuclear arsenal is nonexistent, and while the shock of the Sept. 11 attacks have made many Americans receptive to the idea of pre-emptive military action.
Painting an up-to-date picture of Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction is not easy. United Nations arms inspectors have not visited Iraq for almost four years, and there are significant gaps in what American intelligence knows about the Iraqi program.
Consequently, Bush administration officials are hoping to use what one official called a mosaic of disturbing new reports – including intelligence that Iraq has tried to purchase the special tubing to make centrifuges – to underscore their dire warnings about Iraq’s military ambitions.”
I would suggest that Lieberman and others are strongly pushing for an attack on Iran.
the one thing that is encouraging is that the Ike is scheduled to be relieved – if the Eisenhower does start steaming home (and they’ve been out an AWFUL long time and are MORE than ready to return), then it is just a normal rotation…
and that is very, very good news.
New moon dates are likely attack dates: helps the stealth aircraft stay very stealth.
OT but just watched Sen. Whitehouse on the CSPAN replay from the Sampson grilling this morning. Forget moving to FLA when I retire; I’m moving to Rhode Island! He was smoking (he was so pissed smoke was almost literally coming out his ears). Wow. My govt at work at last.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 90
but only in the name of peace.
OldCoastie @ 33
But, remember, this is the Bush Administration. They’ll try it with two while trying to convince the Faux News Faithful that there’s any remote justification for doing it at all.
Another bad thought: We’d better hope like hell that they DON’T have any nukes, because three aircraft carriers would be one hell of a target for suicide bomber in a small boat. With a nuke, you wouldn’t even have to get close.
btw, if anyone STILL has any question aboout who gave Brett Tolman the idea to slip the language in the Patriot Act extension in Nov 2005, please let me know. I’m getting kinda tired of seeing that question in the threads.
EvilDr – the Navy would pitch a fit… it wouldn’t happen… someone would find a way.
EvilDrPuma @ 95
Sad but true. Their motto seems to be, “If it’s not worth doing half-assed, it’s not worth doing at all.”
Slothrop @ 92
Next new moon is April 17, the same day of Abu’s scheduled testimony.
kirk murphy @ 68
I seem to recall siimilar tales of US/UN forces playing same type of chicken games in the demilitarized zone with North Korea…
We (the U.S military) do seem well positioned in the Persian Gulf for an attack on Iran
King Abdullah’s comments @ The Arab League make a lot of sense right about now…wonder if lil prince dubya is getting a lot of flack from poppy… how’s Bandar Bush feeling lately?
sheesh.
Hugh @ 57
Great comment, Hugh.
Shrub never learns – but Cheney and Halliburton knew.
TiredFed @ 93
Whitehouse was really my hero of the day.
puppethead @ 77
From upstairs–military grade GPS can be disabled by stuff bought at Radio Shack.
The Navy does not have the best reputation in the Gulf … Fisk tells tales of the US ships tending to hide “behind” commercial vessels and otherwise not quite act the heroes in previous actions. I’ll have to dig out the quotes on that.
Frank Probst @ 96
Iran doesn’t, and that’s a pretty ridiculous scenario on its face. People need to be very careful not to be scared by the sensationalistic fearmongering coming from Bush’s death cult.
Nukes are not like fertilizer bombs that any person can carry and set off. Even a “dirty bomb” is no worse than a real bomb, like the ones going off in Iraq every day. The only people who are likely to use a real nuclear weapon is the United States of America, and if we do we deserve what happens to us. Expect almost every country to boycott all of our goods and services if we nuke Iran.
Simply stated: the Bush administration is extremely dangerous.
Link for the Nimitz deployment:
http://www.10news.com/news/11422067/detail.html
I could not figure out the talk of a third week in April for the start of the “Iran War” window. I thought it might be related to arrival of Patriot batteries. Now, since the Nimitz is to relieve the Eisenhower carrier group, there will be a short window with three carrier battle groups and air-wing in the Gulf. O-C is right, this could be very serious.
A cornered psychopath is very dangerous..I think Taylor Marsh made a similar point.
o/t
sorry Siun – goin’ o/t
WT F’ING F ?!?!?
I should probably take a walk before hitting publish I’m so incensed – nah
The British government, as long as Tony Blair is running that show, will do exactly as Bush instructs them.
I did have to chuckle when the Iranians rolled out their own map and little GPS thing today …
one thing, the Ike is pretty exhausted – seems to me they were “extended” several months beyond their normal deployment (due to maintenence issues on the Nimitz). The Nimitz may have to do some shake down before they arrive in the gulf.
The Ike is not fresh and may need to resupply and repair and the Nimitz may not make “full steam” to the Gulf – before I get completely excited, I’m going to watch and see how long it takes ‘em to arrive.
greenwarrior @ 100
this calls for spiderpaws.
(and April 17 may need
exorcismscleansing spells)Frank Probst @ 96
From what I’ve read of Iran’s supersonic antiship missiles, the carrier groups could be devastated even without nukes.
IIRC the Pentagon (BNM – before neocons’ madness) ran war games on the US Navy in the Persian Gulf – and swarms of suicide boats and supersonic missilies decimated the carrier task forces.
I wonder how far outside of the Gulf the carrier groups can remain and still destroy Iran?
eCAHNomics @ 106
No mention of military-grade GPS in the earlier comment, and I’m unable to track down any source article at Wired. I doubt military GPS can be easily disabled, especially over any wide area.
Slothrop @ 92
From The US Navy’s Moon Phase Calendar:
NEW MOON
day hr min
JAN. 19 4 01
FEB. 17 16 14
MAR. 19 2 43
APR. 17 11 36
MAY 16 19 27
JUNE 15 3 13
JULY 14 12 04
AUG. 12 23 03
SEPT. 11 12 44
OCT. 11 5 01
NOV. 9 23 03
DEC. 9 17 40
Anyone wanna bet Bush picks September 11?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 112
yep, and if we do this ghastly thing and use nukes we will forever be pariahs– we are now, but if we haul our criminals out into the open, hold them accountable and fall to our knees and beg forgiveness while paying reparations, we may have a slight chance.
otherwise, we deserve it.
Dr. Strangelove Bush won’t put “a troop in harm way”. He said so, today. No, no, he’ll put 140,000 plus troops in harms way everyday. As far as nuclear warfare – he’s never said that he was worried about nuclear war, he said Iraq and Iran were/are pursuing nukular weapons. It all depends on the meaning of nukular. See? Heh, heh. He never mislied anyone.
ok, I gotcha Congressman ;)
phheew!, sorry guys
I bet the wacko christianists in the Air-force are giddy at the thought of using the nuclear penetrators on Iran. Nuclear penetrators are an incredibly dirty nuclear munition. I believe it was about six months ago that a group of scientists ran a nuclear bomb damage assessment program and the death toll was about 6 million, mostly short and long term death from radiation fall-out.
If only we had some aluminum tubes or some yellowcake uranium from Niger. Then we’d know for sure where the boundary waters between Iran and Iraq are.
I’m not sure what to think about the latest rumours of a strike date for Iran … there have been several in the past though the ME and the financial markets have been reacting as if they consider an attack quite possible …
Jerusalem Post
Exclusive: Embassies in Teheran prepare escape plans
Amir Mizroch, THE JERUSALEM POST Mar. 23, 2007
Several foreign embassies in Teheran are updating their emergency evacuation plans should a Western or Israeli attack on Iran occur.
According to foreign sources, foreign diplomats believe a possible attack would take place before the end of 2007. By that time, Iran might have enough enriched uranium to cause a humanitarian and environmental catastrophe from radioactive fallout should its nuclear facilities be damaged or destroyed in an attack.
Embassies in all countries generally have evacuation plans for their staff, but foreign sources describe the general atmosphere in Iran as one of heightened preparedness. Recently, several diplomatic missions based in Teheran have begun to reassess their plans, and embassies without permanent security officers have requested them.
Of course, you all remember the simulations the military held stateside years ago where the guy who played the bad guys got a little “too creative” and won the battle? He got fired from the project.
cbl @
111
cbl – there is also this brief ThinkProgress post:
Justice Dept. agrees to transcribed interviews
In somewhat better news:
The Blue Dogs, believe it or not, have come up with a lovely plan to force Bush out of Iraq before he goes or to make the GOP pay for backing him. Check it out!
thanks Stephen ! as you can see I calmed down enough to read my own original link to see that even tomorrow is on the record :)
Phoenix Woman @ 126
I also hope they come up with a plan to get us out of Iran before we get in.
well LS … since it seemed like all the Dems were very eager to spout anti-Iran talk to the folks at A*PAC, I’m fearing they just want to change venues.
Bugboy @ 124
That would be the Millenium Challenge.
And the guy who “screwed up” was none other than legendary Marine General Paul Van Riper.
If Saddam had had Van Riper running things, we wouldn’t have been able to land our troops because he would have taken out the troop ships with suicide boats. And Bush would have lost the 2004 election.
OT for DrEvilPuma-
So, have you been on your visit to the UK yet? Would be very interested to hear the Brit’s view on this, should you happen to get into a conversation about politics…
Siun @ 129
Without a doubt. I agree totally – and think about all that campaign “mullah” when all is said and done.
LS @ 128
That’s going to be part of it.
Here’s the deal:
Dole out the funding in small (one-month to three-month) increments. Force the Republicans to continually go on the record, over and over again, as either backing Mister Thirty Percent and his unpopular war, or backing bringing the troops home.
Make each successive bill a little nastier, in the finest Mob tradition: “Hey, we cut you slack the first time out. Things are just going to get worse unless you come to our way of thinking.”
And do it over and over again, forcing to go on the record repeatedly in the year before an election.
What a colossal mess we have made in that beautiful part of the world– the cradle of civilization.
That is the big ole elephant in the room, Siun at 129.
There is zero chance that our warfare/occupation is protecting the security of either the US or Israel. How many people have to die or become enraged or live in abject terror and hell until we realize that we are wrong/stupid/batsh*t nuts?
I wrote about this what seems like a long time ago.
The first targets in Iran that would be hit would be command and control, radars and their missiles, air forces, strategic targets like Natanz and missile batteries around the Straits of Hormuz. This would widen more generally to other nuclear assets, communications, roads, bridges, and other military threats like speed boats and Revolutionary Guard bases. Perhaps a few refineries would be hit but the oil industry would be left largely intact.
The problem from a military point of view is that you can’t just hit some of these targets. Once you begin you really need to hit them all.
The mess would be terrific, the blowback would be felt not just in Iran and the Gulf but in Iraq, and the effect on oil prices and the world economy would be catastrophic. Sane people would make the calculation and realize it wasn’t worth it, but the kicker here is we are talking about George Bush and scenarios no matter how nutty can not be completely written out where he is concerned.
angie @ 134
They’ll keep dying ’til they get off of OUR oil.
Why don’t they understand?
Angie …. nodding …
I’ve been reading Karen Armstrong’s books on Mohammed and Islamic history … very worthwhile for any who are unfamiliar with Islam and the history of the region.
Phoenix Woman @ 133
Works for me. Shorten the leash. I’m sure this is what will happen
I hesitate to compliment someone on their posts. Lest I taint them with with the scent of radicalism.
puppethead @116
eCAHNomics @ 106
From upstairs–military grade GPS can be disabled by stuff bought at Radio Shack.
—
No mention of military-grade GPS in the earlier comment, and I’m unable to track down any source article at Wired. I doubt military GPS can be easily disabled, especially over any wide area.
—
A quick run by Google turns up information on disabling GPS on a unit-by-unit basis (mostly for people who don’t want their cellphones telling people where they are – a bad idea if you ever need help!). For an area effect, you’d need a transmitter or an RFI generator for the right set of frequencies, and that’s a little more complicated. It isn’t something the average user would be doing (or atelast they wouldn’t be doing it well).
[Why, yes, I do know which end of a soldering iron gets hot (pulling 25W iron and spool of 63/37 from toolbox.]
Phoenix Woman @ 130
not to be picky, but bush did lose the 2004 election. we got him for 4 more compliments of SCOTUS.
Hugh … the plans that have been discussed – both on some of the strategy sites and on Fox News (who love their Iran map) describe carpet bombing and hitting 200 targets fast. All claimed as “military” sites yet the “collateral damage” would be astonishing … and it’s thought they would not be able to hit the Rev Guard folks in a way that would take them out before they hit US naval assets.
You got that right Siun. I trust sleazebag Toady Blair as much as I trust liar shrub.
cbl @ 127
I was pissed too, my blood pressure was boiling. I did some deep breathing it helped
I find it really sad that the U.S. politicians are always spouting their endless support for Israel, but actually, every time they saber rattle in the Middle East, they put Israel at extreme risk of attack. That is so ironic and hypocritical and part of their fight them over there crappola. If I were Israel, I’d be really wary of this admin and its agenda. Sounds to me like the Saudi’s are beginning to get it.
Read your headline and assumed you were talking about the genius Sampson testimony today…not!
Wouldn’t it be ironic if Sampson were deliberately lying/dissembling to implicate the hapless and seemingly chummed ol’ chum,AGAG, in order to protect MC Rover?
Imagine the view. Tony Blair and George Bush, together in the Hague.
I want my President held to account.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 146
Standing next to Dick Cheney.
And while we’re at it, why do people here think that starving the Palestinians of everything is a good move?
I can say that I am totally against this heinous apartheid.
It’s not right– it’s downright immoral and inhuman.
Prairie … did you see the CNN piece with Jeannie Moss (sp?) where she showed the MC Rove bit to “urban youth” on NY streets … they were not impressed with the Rove’s flow.
The arab summit was on Cspan after the hearing they yanked it right away. Does anyone know if they are discussing changing over to euros from dollars?
I was watching that too, lolo.
Inneresting how it just stopped after BFF Musharraf.
So, to answer you, I have no idea.
I want a Palestinian homeland.
erm
Greenwarrior
Actually the SCOTUS gave Bush the 2000 election
In 2004 Kerry rolled over without their help
GWB – Never elected
Mack @ 155
thanks for the correction mack.
A summary of the Arab Summit – this is from a Kuwaiti site so a bit more pro-western than many but no mention of dollar issue:
Kuna
greenwarrior @ 100
Larissa Andropova at At- Largely as already debunked the 4/6 attack scenario. I think you can link there from Raw Story blogs. The 4/17 scenario is way much more likely,it will give the Stennis 2 1/2 -3 weeks to get there, it’s a new moon as has been pointed out, and it’s when Abu is set to testify… and lastly, it’s the same date that King Abdullah was to be feted at a White House dinner. We know from past experiences that the Bushies like to be with the al Saud (al Faud?) family during the beginings of wars. I.e. Pappy and Badar breakfasting on Sept 11.
I’m thinking the King backing out on that dinner is actually a good thing, if he knew in advance that the attack was set for that day. Anything else you can say about the Royal family, is they do know how to maintain their power and control over their beleaguered people. So, hopefully this is a rather public slap down , and Dubya will take the hint that the Saudi’s don’t think an attack at this time is at all wise or helpful to their own power status. (I’m not saying this well, but I hope my point is clear.
And as an FYI, I’ve found that DebkaFile.com is pretty durned good at about publishing US ship movements etc. long before our MSM gets to them.
Mr. Carmen is somewhat of a GPS expert…he says that the picture uptop is bizarre, that it looks like a personal GPS unit that some sailor brought. It would have helped if it looked out on the ocean, that there was some evidence that it was actually on a boat.
okay – headed in to EPU land but I hope a few of you will indulge me here -
I keep asking this and have yet to get a satisfactory answer – maybe b/c I’m dense, maybe b/c I don’t ask the right questions or ask them properly but here goes -
how in the world does anyone in the USAF or USN countenance launching attacks on Iran – knowing full well the immediate effect it will have on the US Army, USMC, and the thousands of other americans in Iraq ???
I am an admitted illiterate when it comes to all things military – history, tactics, strategy, arms, anything – but I can not recall a time where one branch of the military so cravenly sacrifices another -
I know there are a few Cheney loyal dead enders left at the Pentagon, but someone will have to explain how this is justified in military terms
Siun @ 142
Carpet bombing sounds rather metaphorical. It was used during the Second World War largely because bombers had difficulty hitting targets smaller than a city. Precision guided munitions make such a tactic unnecessary, although the idea of a bomb and precision are kind of contradictory concepts. Civilian casualties would probably be in the thousands. If Bush was insane enough to use nuclear weapons against hardened sites like Natanz, the figures might go into the tens of thousands.
Stealth fighters and bombers and cruise missiles would be used in the first wave for surprise, to suspress air defenses and disrupt an effective response. As the skies opened up, these attacks would give way to wider strikes by more conventional aircraft. Many targets would be hit, assessed, and hit again. The process could go on for several weeks.
The hand-held GPS is suspicious. Naval aircraft have more sophisticated positioning instruments than you can buy at Radio Shack.
It’s hard to tell from the close view, but this photo appears to be from the right side of the cockpit; in a helo, that’s where the command pilot sits. I would imagine the pilot usually needs two hands on the controls, so he or she normally relies on control panel instruments, not hand held devices like this.
If this is from the aft crew section, again, it seems odd, since precise position info is something the pilot or co-pilot need, especially in tight, disputed air/sea space.
carmen @ 159
I used to be an avid and active sailor (still am in my heart!) and Mr. Carmen is correct.
it is BS.
carmen @ 159
apparently, this gps was not on a boat, but on a helicopter that was hovering above the boat (according to Newshour) – no one has a definitive gps reading.
of course, if the Brits send their military into battle in a state of preparedness akin to ours,
the ship’s gps could be whatever some sailor’s mum picked up at Radio Shack
The GPS picture as some kind of proof of location is bogus, because all modern ships are equipped with GPS these days and location can be determined from anywhere in the world via satellite. The GPS is on the ship – not in the hands of a pilot. You don’t need a helicopter or airplane hovering above it to establish the location. It is totally absurd.
I do not want my government to attack Iran. Or anyone else.
btw – al jazeera has provided some coverage of Arab Summit
and hey -
http://english.aljazeera.net/N…..1E170D.htm
Tony Blair does and so does the skipper, OC!
Siun @
151
Missed that moment…thank goodness. But I’ve got a hunch Stewart and/or Colbert may have something wonderful in store tonight. One hopes!
OK
with you on that
cbl – those are very good questions… I do often suspect there are a lot of psyops going on and so information is often very difficult to interpret accurately.
there is no apparent advantage for anyone, save the Bushies reputation, that would make attacking Iran a good idea…
the question then is: How crazy are they?
Mack @
155
GWB: If unelected, I will serve.
If drafted…not so much.
cbl @ 160
The short answer is it can’t be. This was always the downside for staying in Iraq. It tied us down, weakened us, and made us targets and hostages to events happening elsewhere in the Gulf. Bush and company don’t do strategy, they do strategery, which is why they fail so badly so often.
I want my party, the Dems, to tie Bush and the rest into knots. This may be our only hope.
angie @ 169
the lot of ‘em are nuts – including the Iranians…
Way OT
Countdown has been repeating all week after Scarbourgh
Head to head with Greta and Cooper
Whoa! Check out the numbers! : )
http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/ratings/
lolo @ 152
Don’t about the summit discussion -
but the answer is yes…Bush’s wars are knocking the US dollar out of “petrocurrency”.
and from Al Jazeera…
[h/t ICH]
puppethead @
116
GPS doesn’t get disabled, it gets degraded – lowering the accuracy so that it’s not so useful for targeting, but still within 200-300 m you can still tell more or less where you are within 1/4 mile, map-wise…and if the receiver can get a “differential” signal, which was originally meant to improve it’s accuracy, it will offset the reading by whatever the differential is. And in any case, to make a display show certain coordinates, just save them as a waypoint, fly over the ship, and display the saved waypoint. The picture proves nothing.
OldCoastie
you need to ask?
the question I ask myself is
what are the chances of a military coup – at least the refusal of a direct order by the joint chiefs?
slim, i know, but… hey, i didn;t think we would actually invade a sovereign nation that posed no direct threat,,, until we did
For the first time since I started hanging out here, I am really offended by something written here.
Dang, what’s up with you people? I watched the British MOD presser live on the BBC yesterday (I was in Ireland at the time). You may not like the evidence, but at least the Brits (unlike the Iranians) have come forward with some evidence to support their claims. Why are y’all blithely assuming that it’s the Brits who are lying? Oh, that’s right, they’re our allies, and our government is a bunch of miserable, lyin’ sacks of shit, so guilt by association is perfectly OK. Particularly when the “good guys” are a country run by a Holocaust denier and a bunch of mullahs who think it’s perfectly OK to stone to death women who engage in extramarital sex.
Where the hell is your objectivity, people?
OC @ 176– with all due respect, I think if I were an Iranian leader, I would react exactly the same way.
We are in Afghanistan and Iraq, on their borders and causing immeasurable suffering while threatening them all the time and I’ll wager that the British troops did provoke them.
And we skip merrily down the road to world war.
Siun @ 157
thanks.
a suggestion for the next hearings thread. Maybe Kyle Sampson’s nickname should be “bubble boy.” No idea why he made all those recommendations to fire the USAs. No connection “in his mind” between Lam and Cunningham, Iglesias and local Dems, McKay and local Dems. not aware of Karl Rove’s interest (in anything apparently). Bubble Boy. Sorry to be OT. Watching the replay on CSPAN late night. gotta get my licks in somehow.
Mack @ 180
I’m not sure I would necessarily say, “slim”… I think they would find other things to do besides outright refusal… ways to delay, obfuscate… delay some more… in fact, I’m counting on them.
Old Coastie and Hugh – thank you both
again, I wasn’t talking about Bush Cabal – I was just wondering how does some USAF guy look across the table at Chairman Pace and say ‘ “It’s a go”
and Mack, do recall some Generals have already anonymously stated they will resign if Cheney makes a move
Last time I checked, there were no Iraqis or Iranians occupying Oklahoma.
Siun @ 34
Tnx Siun. I figured 3 times would be enuf to post… (prolly 2 too many)… sorry ’bout that. Pls pass this along to those long-suffering and overburdened public servants.
If anyone on the FDL staff wants to swap thoughts about this, try http://tinyurl.com/3xr99k — it’s a tinyed URL to a sub-bbs of http://www.QuickTopic.com , a freebie BBS with an email component. Cool beans. Not a candidate for any sort of FDL chat application of course :)
Tnx again!
angie @ 182
I don’t think the Iranians are much better at diplomacy that junya is… part of the reason this is all such a mess… the lot of ‘em – lunkheads! and all playing a very dangerous game.
One of the differences between commercial and military spec electronics equipment, like positioning devices, is sophistication and precision. Another is “hardening”, making the same thing that’s in your Cessna or Bertram withstand lots of abuse, dirt, water, banging around, etc. This picture doesn’t seem to reveal either.
If I were piloting a multi=million dollar aircraft, or responsible for men and ships, and could be on the wrong end of a missile if I screwed up my position, I think I would use better equipment. I suspect the RN does, too.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 167
I second that
The Iranians “kidnapped” the British sailors, while the US “detained” Iranian diplomats.
Words, words, words.
-GSD
GSD @ 193
a most important observation, sir.
burnspbesq, it’s nice to have “some evidence”; it’s only useful if it appears credible and reliable. I hope the briefing, which I did not see, had more of those characteristics than this photo.
Frank Probst @ 70
The other reason I don’t like this date to begin a war is it’s Good Friday, and surely folks in this White House and in this Pentagon, with it’s links to the Christian Embassy, would know that.
I suppose some theocratic nut job would find some biblical reason or quote to make this a propituous date for starting the End Times, or at the very least WWIII. But, I imagine most the mainline protestant churches and leaders would be disgusted with it. I can’t see them attempting it then for that reason alone.
TRex is looking at Rachael upstairs
mbbsdphil – If you are here, I saw your reply on the old thread. There is simply no Constitutional basis for the proposition that Bush could, through some artifice, partially delegate or designate the powers of “the executive” Take a look at Article II, Section 1, Clauses 1 and 6. The only allowance is for full assignment, and we know Bush has not done that. Also note that, just as discussed, “The executive Power shall be vested in a President”. There may be some mechanism allowing Cheney to classify/declassify, but I don’t see how the executive order, original or amended, is a valid basis.
Trex has a party waiting upstairs – enjoy!
Prairie Sunshine @ 170
Stewart just did a funny rap rift about Rove !
Bush and company are big on globalization so I can hardly see why they would object to international oil markets diversifying risk by moving into other currencies.
burnspbesq,
calm down. This is a situation where neither side is going to be able to prove its case conclusively. If either side had had such proof we would have seen it by now. We haven’t. This doesn’t mean anyone hates the British here or favors them over the Iranians. It does say a lot though about the current situation with the US and the UK that given their past truthiness we can make no presumption that our guys are telling the truth.
I think if we sent Nancy Pelosi to meet with her female Iranian counterpart, that this whole mess would be settled in about an hour and a half.
this is all dick-waving in the ultimate. it needs to stop NOW.
burnspbesq @ 181
I can only speak for myself.
I am supportive of the Brits, pray for their return.
I also have learned the hard way to NEVER take anything coming from these clowns at face value. Never. It saves a lot of trouble and heartache, trust me.
It will come out somewhere down the line (apparently already has), that neither side was telling the complete truth.
Sucks to not be able to trust a damn thing the gov’t says, but especially on a day like today, I shouldnt have to explain that.
The US has Iranian “detainees” the Iranians have British “hostages”.
-GSD
I’ve done a lot of orienteering in the U.S. and western Europe with Garmin etrex units just like the one shown. It’s a ‘low-end’ unit, in the US$150 range; the top of the line is much fancier. Without interference these low-end units are accurate to within 30 feet or so, almost anywhere in the world. With interference, it doesn’t give you any reading — it waits for the interference to go away and the satellite reception to improve. And, for certain purposes this type of photo is commonly offered as “proof” of where you are, just like a kidnapped subject might hold up a copy of today’s newspaper. So to my mind. the picture of the device is quite adequate proof of where the photo was taken, but not of when and whether the photo has been doctored.
Then again, if the British don’t have a hacker who can reprogram one of these simple Garmin GPS units ………
Old Coastie – I’d second your analysis.
I don’t know if this is even called for but let me toss out a bit of GPS 101
GPS stands for Global Positioning Satellite
It uses radio signals from multiple satellites to triangulate your position. There’s around a couple dozen satellites in geostationary orbit, which means they are at a fixed point in the sky above.
First of all, when you get your coords on the fly, they are off. Usually it’s not a big deal unless you are driving the titanic.
To get ANY kind of precision, you have to find a benchmark. That is, a physical location that has been manually surveyed. Then you can transect off from there, hardly something practical during a boat inspection in the middle of a shipping channel.
Siun @ 206
I’m gettin’ pretty sick of all the “measuring”.
OC – nodding, Take the Toys away from the Boys as we used to say!
Thanks to our GPS pros, esp Bugboy – very useful and interesting info.
Burns, I was spitting mad about how the US deliberately withheld the cockpit tapes of the US/UK troop deaths. So I took the UK’s side over the US side on that one.
The Bush government has been lying to us for 7 years….Day in and day out about everything from WMD’s to USA’s to Pat Tillman to Jessica Lynch.
The Bush crowd is a warmongering bunch and Tony Blair is right along with them.
Also, despite Irans’ horrible record on human rights, the bottom line is UK sailors were threading the needle off of Iranian waters. There wasn’t an Iranian ship running around the English channel.
-GSD
I can see Nancy saying, “we’ll take our big boats outta the Gulf” and Ms. Madam Iran saying, “here are the British prisoners”.
Anyone for tea?
GSD … thanks. We keep forgetting it’s not *our* backyard.
burnspbesq @ 181
Perhaps we should look wherever you left your reading skills, courtesy, and social IQ.
As for my objectivity.
Haven’t seen mine lately…I’ve lent it out to the former UK Ambassador to Uzbekistan.
Perhaps you missed this in my comment last night – and referenced at 55 upthread.
No doubt, I’ve been a complete fool for allowing the Ambassador to inform my views. No doubt he’s lying when he wrote today:
But don’t trust my words – I’ve no objectivity.
And the Ambassador is clearly biased:
I guess if I got my news from MOD pressers, rather than senior officials with honorable hhuman rights records, I could be as objective and informed as your comment this evening.
Thanks for pointing the way – to where I never wish to be:
believing a war ministry’s press officers.
A couple of years ago, a French and a German were deep sea fishing in the gulf, around some islands, when Iran captured them. The media said that the border in this waters is disputed, but Iran captured them. Iran incarcerated the German until a few weeks ago, he almost died in dismal conditions. There was no benefit for Iran to hold him, they were not exactly human in this matter.
Show of hands. Anyone here refer to Iran as “the good guys” using quotes like that?
-GSD
GSD @ 215
not me.
angie @ 217
Never seen theocracies and theocrats – foreign or domestic – as “good guys”.
Love my 1st Amendment, umm hmm,
Not me either.
mbbsdphil @ 191
I’m not so sure this is the case any more, as there is a market for rugged tough items (Hummer anyone?) now. I would venture a guess that military equipment is no more durable, precise, nor better quality than commercial equipment in todays market environment.
Hugh @ 201
From Rep. Ron Paul, End of the dollar Hegemony:
http://www.house.gov/paul/cong…..021506.htm
“The agreement with OPEC in the 1970s to price oil in dollars has provided tremendous artificial strength to the dollar as the preeminent reserve currency. This has created a universal demand for the dollar, and soaks up the huge number of new dollars generated each year. Last year alone M3 increased over $700 billion.
…
The artificial demand for our dollar, along with our military might, places us in the unique position to “rule” the world without productive work or savings, and without limits on consumer spending or deficits. The problem is, it can’t last.
Most importantly, the dollar/oil relationship has to be maintained to keep the dollar as a preeminent currency. Any attack on this relationship will be forcefully challenged—as it already has been.
…..
In November 2000 Saddam Hussein demanded Euros for his oil. His arrogance was a threat to the dollar; his lack of any military might was never a threat.
In 2001, Venezuela’s ambassador to Russia spoke of Venezuela switching to the Euro for all their oil sales. Within a year there was a coup attempt against Chavez, reportedly with assistance from our CIA.
……
After these attempts to nudge the Euro toward replacing the dollar as the world’s reserve currency were met with resistance, the sharp fall of the dollar against the Euro was reversed.”
I started to educate myself in those matters. Kind of breath taking. I think Ron Paul is a Repub, anti war, interesting views.
GPS- you can the United States Air Force. They manage the entire system. That includes altering the accuracy of the signals, at will; and the ability to shift entire output, at will; and do so by regiion and perhaps even locally.
chuteh @ 221
Iran likely has their own satellites or is using someone elses, maybe Russia’s. Britian’s is probably using their own or NATO’s. I’m talking off the top of my head here so feel free to stomp me.
I’d be willing to put money on Iran NOT using USAF Satellites.
Bugboy @
124
I feel certain that ‘creative’ guy had Vietnam experience and knew exactly how to win with ‘inferior’ forces. Our Brass never seem to care to learn.
Call me cynical, but I’m having a REAL hard time believing Blair on this one. Maybe the Iraq War and the lies behind it play a part? I feel they are poking Iran, pushing for a retaliation from them that will give Bush his much desired opportunity to pull the trigger on Iran. I am fearful that this administration is hellbent for armageddon.
GSD @
193
“Madness, madness, madness”
Now, if the Iranian boats were in the English Channel and picked up some sailors doing exercises there….
Isn’t it amazing how we put our foot on someone’s face and then get all hepped up about them attacking us when they try to push out foot aside?
Bush is a menace, perhaps even a mad man.
Remember the scene in “To Kill a Mockingbird” where the Sheriff asked Atticus to take care of the rabid dog? What’s different now?
bmaz@198, US Const, Art II, sec. 1, clss 1 & 6, I’m not talking about the way authority devolves onto the Vice President or others when the President is removed or becomes incapacitated. I am assuming the President is formally regarded as having the capacity to serve.
Cls 1 places the Govt’s executive authority in the hands of the President. Cls 6 talks about all of that power devolving onto the Vice President or others should the President not be able to function because of illness, other incapacity, removal by impeachment, etc.
But reading the Constitution as might Addington or Cheney, neither of these clauses restricts the way the President exercises his authority he retains while “competent”. He delegates it routinely to others, such as cabinet secretaries. Why not the Vice President? Just because it’s never been done? Because it would suggest a President gelded by his reliance on more powerful and adept actors in his own White House?
The VP may have no formal powers whatever; that’s no bar to having them delegated to him by the President. It even has advantages. The President remains legally liable for the actions done.
If the delegation is below the radar so that everyone’s afraid of talking about it or chooses not to or doesn’t know about it, then like a president’s drinking or serial womanizing, it just happens and the public is no wiser. All the better for Mr. Cheney, since Congress and the public would scream bloody hell if the President had formally delegated authority to Cheney. My question is why they don’t do the same when Cheney acts as if that’s the case.
Many regard Mr. Bush as seriously limited in range. But even “Dave” in the movie of that name could be President – and screw up or succeed according to his talents – so long as he refused to yield to others. Mr. Bush gives great theater about not yielding, about being the Decider; but, like someone who brags about his manhood, that often means he’s not.
Mr. Bush is mysteriously functionally dependent on Dick Cheney and Karl Rove. The level of that dependence is unprecedented. Mr. Nixon, Mr. Clinton, Mr. Reagan and Mr. Eisenhower would never have tolerated such competing centers of power. Mr. Bush could not operate without them.
My question is has this just evolved, or have Mr. Cheney and Mr. Addington, being the wise, careful, voracious bureaucrats they are, gotten something in writing, a secret EO perhaps, to cover the VP’s ass?
Alas ye silly muffins. This has nothing to do with the sailors…it is all about product placement. Kind of like the Global Crossing umbrellas at the National Cathedral Memorial just after 9/11.
The important takeaway is eTrex is the military’s provider of GPS devices. In case you are interested, you can get them at REI. (Ooops, did I just alert the terrorists to a national security weakness?)
The real questions is “WWJD?” (what would Jefferson do?”).
I feel like such a wimp sometimes…
“…something in writing, a secret EO perhaps, to cover the VP’s ass?”
I know these guys are big into loyalty oaths and such, but does a rag with some signatures scribbled on them really have any weight? When it comes to sharing Executive power? With the big “E”?
Why aren’t people taking aggressive action to stop Bush/Cheney from their imminent bombing of IRAN???
http://www.counterpunch.com/lindorff03292007.html
Why are so many people just waiting for it to happen???
Siun,
May be your best and most important post yet. I got here too late to participate. Thanks for helping educate a lot of people on how ambiguous the whole situation in the Gulf is right now.
lolo @
152
I have seen reports that many of the Gulf states are opting to diversify their foreign exchange reserves to include Euros, Yens and Remnibis/Yuans (Chinese) and that means selling their oil for these currencies. China is already buying Iranian oil (12% of their oil purchase) for Yuans and Euros as are some Asian countries – which ones I’m not sure. Saudi Arabia, in its public pronouncements, is still pledging to sell oil for US$. Their oilfields, however, are already in decline.
This in fact hastens the probability of an attack on Iran since that country led the move to switch oil transactions from US$ only. It also reduces global demand for US$ holdings and the Fed’s ability to keep on printing greenbacks worth very little more than the cost of the paper and ink.
We Brits didn’t ALL buy it. Not by a long chalk.
Here’s another bit of perspective from one of my favorite sites, Bagnews:
http://bagnewsnotes.typepad.co…..g_gul.html
OldCoastie @
14
Early on in the trial someone posted a notice that the Nimitz and the Eisenhour were on station and were expecting the Stennis to be joining them. Also at the same time frame it was reported that the Reagan had steamed from a station in Calif. for Persian area, eta Ides de March iirc. Looks like maybe 4 Carrier groups in vecinity as well as Med 5th Fleet with whatever carrier groups. Doubt seriously it’s for fun and games, not at dailey rate to run a carrier group. Sorry the links were not noted but are in fdl comments after Irving’s trial started. Sorry so EPU, hope this is found. All the best…….
Guys I think you are being a little too suspicious. Why would the brits go into Iranian waters? The British press has a good account of the event — the inflatable boat went to investigate an Indian vessel, and while they were re-boarding their boat the Iranians came and took the soldiers and then lied about where it happened (the whole “oops we gave the wrong coordinates” thing). We certainly have done bad things in the region, but Iran is on a whole different plane. Why would you believe a word they said, especially after they gave the UN the wrong map coordinates?
Amy, I’m personally trusting a Brit on this – see comment 214.
If the British Ambassador thinks the MOD’s misleading the public, who am I to disagree?
Hi this is Varun
I have gone through this site and i found some good information about The British Government has published a map showing the coordinates of the incident, well within an Iran/Iraq maritime border. Our site is also related to this for more information follow this link……united first financial
burnspbesq @
181
I agree with you. This is ridiculous. Even if they WERE barely over the border, the proper response from Iran would be to tell them to go back. Plus the Iranians initially gave coordinates that looked reasonable based on the positions of the British ship and the merchant ship. Then, when the positions turned out to be in Iraqi waters, they changed them. Whether the British evidence is trustworthy or not, the Iranian s evidence alone has me believing the British. The Iranians were looking for a reason to capture British troops. I guess they got tired of waiting.
And you can’t compare sailors patrolling in the ocean to Iranian “diplomats” in Iraq who are being detained by US, not British soldiers. It’s apples and oranges.
I have always thought that about the so-called GPS evidence. Why should we believe it? Blair has no credibility. And this is certainly something that could be manipulated. Simply displaying a GPS unit with a reading on it tells me nothing. It’s like taking a watch somewhere setting the time to whatever I want it to be taking the battery out and saying , See what time the crime occured?
I don’t think either gov’t should be taken at face value about the location of the incident.
To get to the “truth” is probably difficult.
The Iranians are clearly behaving badly by videotaping the Brits and using the images for propaganda.
But let’s stay calm.