
Michael Gordon who never met a case for war with Iran, no matter how flimsy which he didn’t fall for, is at it again. Last Tuesday with the crisis over the captured 15 Royal Marines still ongoing and the sudden start of US naval wargames in the Persian Gulf just off Iranian shores, Gordon added his cup of gasoline to the fire. He revisited in the New York Times yet again the topic of EFPs (Explosively formed projectiles), a more lethal form of IED. I am not sure why he is so obsessed about this. Perhaps it is because his and the Times initial articles on the subject were sliced, diced, and given back to them to chew on. Perhaps this is his attempt to answer those charges. Perhaps this is his way of saying both for himself and the Times that it wasn’t really his their fault, that he didn’t make it up, that this was a legitimate concern that the government had had for a VERY LONG TIME. Or maybe he thought to recycle a discredited story ginning up the case for war with Iran, add a few caveats to the same old schlock, sell it for new, and hope nobody noticed. Have you noticed how so many journalists and politicians continue to have this naive belief that no one will remember in the age of the Toobz, the Internets, and the Google?
Gordon is definitely old school. He maintains the fine well established tradition of the Bush years of never naming a source when an unnamed one will do. Tim Russert would be proud of you, Michael, or should I say a reporter at a major American publication? Now to be fair Gordon does occasionally quote someone by name but most of his history of EFPs in Iraq is based on the following:
1. according to American officials familiar with the message.2. interviews with officials in Washington and Baghdad, critics of the administration and independent experts
3. According to classified data gathered by the American military
4. Some Democrats in Congress . . . say
5. American intelligence analysts say
6. said one senior American official, who like several others would discuss intelligence and administration decision-making only on condition of anonymity.
7. According to one military expert
8. officials say
9. American intelligence officials say
10. Some people who are experts on military matters but who acknowledge they do not have access to the classified intelligence have said
11. But American officials say
12. According to officials involved in the discussion, who asked not [to] be identified
13. Other officials said
It just reeks of credibility, doesn’t it? No possibility of hidden agendas or axes to grind there, no sirree!
The wrinkle in Gordon’s argument this time around is that EFPs in Iraq and by extension the whole charge of Iranian (read Iranian government) involvement in arming Shia militias against us should be believed because it has been around for a while.
More than 20 months ago, the United States secretly sent Iran a diplomatic protest charging that Tehran was supplying lethal roadside explosive devices to Shiite extremists in Iraq, according to American officials familiar with the message.
This idea is repeated shortly later:
A review of the administration’s accusations of an Iranian weapons supply role, including interviews with officials in Washington and Baghdad, critics of the administration and independent experts, shows that intelligence that Iran was providing lethal assistance to Shiite militias has been a major worry for more than two years.
Even if I were willing to accept that this isn’t just another segment in the Great Iranian EFP Scare, Gordon’s assertion still raises some questions. For instance, if our government has known about Iranian EFPs in Iraq for more than two years why didn’t it do something about it back then? And why has it decided to make a big case of it only now.
OK, Gordon doesn’t answer the first question because well, hum, he and his unnamed sources couldn’t think up a good answer for it. But they do address the second question. EFP use intensified in the last quarter of 2006.
According to classified data gathered by the American military, E.F.P. attacks accounted for 18 percent of combat deaths of Americans and allied troops in Iraq in the last quarter of 2006.
Still I have to ask 18% of what? Casualties lists 303 US and allied combat deaths in Iraq during the period. 18% of these would be ~55. This is different from his claim in his original Feb. 10, 2006 article where he wrote “a significant portion of Americans killed and wounded in Iraq, though less than a quarter of the total.” There he was talking only about US casualties and a higher percentage. 25% of 288 is 72. Even in the current article, Gordon tries to massage the numbers noting that if Anbar is left out of the calculations the rate is close to 30%. He might just as well have said that if figures from all other causes are excluded the rate approaches 100%. There was also a third number given in the follow on James Glanz article of Feb. 11, 2006 of 170 American deaths due to EFPs since June 2004.
What do I make of all these numbers? Well, first, they all come from unnamed government sources, and none of them can be verified. In other words, this is more “trust us” from the people who brought you the Iraq war. Second, they keep changing. Sometimes it’s Americans, sometimes it’s US and allied forces. It’s 18% or less than a quarter or about 30%. Third, Gordon leaves out an alternate explanation for the alleged increase in deaths due to EFPs at the end of 2006, one that was mentioned in passing in his original article by Lt. Col. James Danna:
“To me it is a political weapon. There are not a lot of them out there, but every time we crack down on the Shia militias that weapon comes out.
So if American casualties increased at the end of 2006 due to EFPs, it may well have been because we were moving at the time more aggressively against Shia militias. Indeed Gordon reports casualty figures from EFPS decreased in the first months of 2007, quite likely because a political decision was made by Shia militias to go easy on the Americans while they were beating up on the Sunnis under the current security plan.
When I first saw Gordon’s 18%, I couldn’t help but think of a percentage that I had previously used and which itself formed part of my critique of this whole issue. If you take the highest number cited, Glanz’s number of 170, it represents 8% of US deaths over the period. While this is a significant number and, accepting for a moment that it isn’t manufactured, I am still left wondering why it isn’t more important to protect our forces from what’s killing the other 92%.
The Glanz number also makes a telling point about Gordon’s attempt to give a fuller and more complete history of EFPs in Iraq. You see Glanz’s count of US casualties begins in June 2004, almost a year before Gordon says the US started getting worried about EFPs. Do you see the problem? The Bush Administration knew about EFPS for a year before they got really worried about them, and then it was nearly two more years before they got really, really worried about them. This is a story that a parent wouldn’t buy from a 6 year old, but Michael Gordon apparently swallows it whole, and invites us to do the same.
The case for Iranian government involvement in arms trafficking in Iraq remains circumstantial and elusive, even after 3 years. In many ways, it is a red herring. First, it isn’t a major cause of US casualties. Second, it deflects attention away from allies like Saudi Arabia and its involvement on the Sunni side, where the vast majority of our casualties occur. Third, it misses in a big way the importance of the Iran-Iraq connection. They are both Shia states and share a common border. Iran is the largest country in the area and has historically been the regional hegemon in the Persian Gulf. In the current chaos in Iraq and our weakened position there, and in the region, it would be silly and unrealistic to think that we could keep Iranian influence out of Iraq. And that’s the rub. The current Republican, Bush, Cheney, Lieberman, McCain, Fallon, Petraeus strategy is predicated, not on a military victory, but a political solution. Such a solution is extremely unlikely but is virtually impossible if we exclude the Iranians from it. And that has absolutely nothing to do with EFPs.
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ZED!
WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!
Lets see now. ‘Our guys”, Iraqi policemen, are running around their country killing their own citizens. Is that right?
Hugh! back on top.
This article is much better than his previous one. There are problems, but you also miss the mark with some of your criticisms. You list of 13 unidentified sources is lame, as some of them are specifically identified later in the article. Those are not anonymous sources; they’re just general references at the top of the article and the individuals are identified more specifically later on.
The media criticism needs to get better.
dear speaker pelosi -
where is the vote on the “can’t attack iran w/o congressional approval” bill, we were promised?
i hope not, but we might be needing it soon.
Hugh - a housekeeping question. Would you prefer us to stick to this topic in this thread, and keep liveblogging comments in the previous one?
I’ll have the non GOP-cocksucking table if you please.
landofthefree @
7
Christy will probably start a Part VI real soon. Let us give Hugh a break. Too bad Hugh’s great post is happening right now, when it will be difficult to get people to focus on the message here.
Nobody attacks unless The Shrub can get 100% on this test:
http://www.ilike2learn.com/ili.....dEast.html
landofthefree @
7
Let me speak for Hugh and suggest we move the live blog here. The previous thread is filling and we can mix topics. Thanks.
Hugh,
Thanks for your post. I’m watching the Firing of the US Attorneys Hearing now. Be back later.
So odd. I don’t hear about any Iranian navy boats patrolling the waters off Britain. Or for that matter off the coast of Florida. But there are British military ships trolling in the Persian Gulf close to Iran. Blatant colonialism, by the Brits and our Government. Oil. I am so sick of the hypocrisy.
hi Hugh. Great post, bad timing. :)
This testimory is a nail-biter at times.
BTW, all. The cspan stand alone player works for me where the homepage one did not, so if you have trouble, try it.
Ed*ard Teller @ 9
Yeah. Great post, Hugh, but I’m too uncoordinated to multi-task. (Well, maybe age has something to do with it, too……)
He might just as well have said that if figures from all other causes are excluded the rate approaches 100%.
Otherwise known as “lying through statistics.”
(creeps in the door, looking for the hearings talk…)
J. A. Baker @ 16
Or how ’bout exclusionary lying?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 13
Trolling is right. Trolling of excuses to attack! I forgot. Why is it that no one from the brave Bush family is serving?
haha! Going for the three that were put on and removed. YES!
Hugh, love the post,does iran not realize we have something called GPS? Also, but by request I came to cover Kyle.
This is exciting. A possibe matchup of Hillary v. Fred Thompson in 2008.
And here come the uh’s again. He’s really shaking now.
They are watching us here, this question just came up 5 min. ago!!!
Go Chuck Go! M’God, Spector just agreed it is a pertinent question!!!
cough ‘em up kyle, now!!!!!!
Funny how the son-of-a-bitch remembers everything when his ass isnt on the line.
Central district, typo, Monica Goodling, dates, etc. But cant remember shit when it comes to his superiors.
Badwater @ 19
“Why is it that no one from the brave Bush family is serving?”
Fear. ;0)
Damn. He dodged on that one.
finally someone pays attention to me!!
I have not seen on many blogs, or the MSM in this country, the actual original source of EFP’s, and it is not Iran. They were developed by the British, our partner in the occupation, and intentionally given to the Irish Republican Army by a rogue British military intelligence operation in the 1980’s. So they have been available to terrorist organizations for over twenty years. Is it any surprise that al Qaeda knows how to build them, or any insurgent group, or the Shia militias? Hardly!
Googling “EFP Irish Republican Army ” yields over 500 hits. The White House BS about the “high technology” required to construct EFP’s is as bogus as the rest of their intelligence about Iraq, and Iran.
Schumer just expressed my befuddlement–no process.
Middle DIstrict NC, Goodling suggested removing her bc GOodling was awre that Wagner had good PSM program, organizing Game conference.
Three came off:
Specter interrupts.
UrbanPirate- Spot on, typical reagan shit
peanutgallery @ 29
hi peanutgallery!!!!
ahoy!
retirin’ in five @ 15
Well, apparently, http://www.sciammind.com/print.....ti-tasking is something humans aren’t so good at, even in their prime.
Please start testimony VI !!!
Sampson: Words “I didn’t realize it.” Meaning: I’m an idiot
Well, then: Syria!
Nice post, Hugh.
ask him for his current email address… then ask him how long he’s had it…
Who keeps coughing? Is it kyles lawsyer signaling him to lie? Seems to cough at pertinent moments
eCAHNomics @
32
We couldn’t get away with firing a volunteer in a church with such an underground process let alone the top prosecutors in the land!
Barney Rubble @ 42
You need to check the replay for coughs.
I’m convinced that Bush will solve global warming by bombing Iran. Price of oil skyrockets past the point of affordibility, people stop driving - BOOM - problem solved!
I did a bit of research on the topic of EFPs a month a month and a half ago:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/.....1934/5931.
The short version is that Alexander Cockburn says that EFPs are being manufactured in Iraq and Gareth Porter
says:
There are links to Porter’s article and Cockburn’s article in my Dkos diary cited above.
Wow…it’s really happening! The Fired AG’s Case looks like it’s going all the way to the fence!
When Miers testifies it will be obvious that she has no power - whatsoever - she didn’t authorize anything. Even if she were to blame it all on…
…Rove; nobody is going to believe that he *single-handedly* evaluated the performance of Patrick Fitzgerald - the guy that almost indicted him - and *fairly* decided his political and professional performance was poor!
I don’t think so! This package has enough postage on it to get to Smirky.
There just might be joy in Mudville this spring!
Hi Peanutgallery- Don’t want you to feel alone, I’m Barney Rubble, I work in a gravel pit, damn glad to meet ya!
Folks — Sampson VI is up and running for everyone. Please do not complain to RBG about this — he’s a mod coordinator. Now, I really have to go and pick up my child before the preschool close and I will be back as soon as is humanly possible. Everyone just hang in there and take a deep breath.
hey Barney, blast from the past!
Psuedo @44- I’m streaming so no pics
From last thread–
They fired the USAs without having replacements in mind. Guess that shows how much they thought of the job.
Jeff @ 5
Just got back. Actually no, most of them aren’t identified later and it rather begs the question of why they weren’t so identified in the first place if they were identified later.
What an impressive post Hugh and a huge thank you for smacking Michael Gordon and his tripe down.
Absolutely, OK @ 13.
DiFi up–Get ready for “immigration deliverables.”
angie #54,
You’re welcome. Gordon is like Dick Cheney that way. He keeps recycling the same story no matter how many times it gets slapped down.
Immigration deliverables!
It’s hard to believe this guy was Chief of Staff of the AG.
They hire ‘em young and dumb and keep’em in the dark.
Neil @ 58
Like mushrooms–they also keep sprouting up all over.
eCAHNomics @
59
KIDFHS
Kept in the dark and fed horseshit
Go Dianne!
eCAHNomics @ 59
And we all know what mushrooms thrive on best…
Kyle: Senator, to the best of my..
Specter: There was no question.
Where is everybody?
I just read this.
CHRIS MATTHEWS: You know what is more incoherent? The views of people like you and other traditional conservatives, who never liked this war, but went along with it because the leader, Bush, supported it. You don‘t like this war, Terry. Pat doesn‘t like this war. Bill Buckley doesn‘t like this war. Traditional conservatives don‘t like this war. And yet you went along with it. If this was Clinton‘s war, you wouldn‘t have fought it.
It’s going to be hard to scapegoat Iran if the Bush toadies abandon ship like this.
Specter plays the victom card. Thought I’d never live to see the day.
Neil @ 64
Several are back at Sampson VI.
Hugh @ 67
Told us to come here for server reasons. Let’s all get on the same page.
Gore for president. Just had to say it.
We are watching Senator Specter! and its not lost on us that you want Kyle Simpson and the DOJ to take all the heat for abusing the clause in the Patriot Act authorizing the President to replace USAs without Senate consent. Senator, how did that clause get placed in the Patriot Act?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 69
I agree completely.
specter seems to think no one is watching…SUPRISE!!!!!!!
Gordon (another Aspen tree) channeling Judy Miller.
Just to clarify - this thread is for discussion of Hugh’s post (and many of us watching the hearings will probably come back to review it & discuss later.) Liveblog elsewhere!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 69
glad to see ya back OK
Fourth, so what? The Chinese and Soviets supplied weapons that killed thousands of US troops in Korea and Vietnam and we didn’t attack China or the USSR. We supplied weapons that killed thousands of Soviet troops in Afghanistan and they didn’t attack us. If proxy wars always led to direct ones the whole world would be on fire.
kathleen @ 73
Yup. Good knife skills, Hugh! (as we say in cooking class).
selise @ 6
Webb’s no-Iran-funding amendment is listed as “considered by Senate.” I don’t know what that means; I guess some procedural move prevented it from being brought up for a vote. His standalone bill to do the same is still alive in the Foreign Relations Committee.
shep @ 76
Not to speak of Lend Lease
I want out of Iraq now. I want no more unprovoked attacks by my government on any foreign country. I want a peaceful, just, and fair settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian situation. I want my party, the Democrats to support each of these requests. I know… I want, I want, I want.
Will someone post the URL of the Senate hearings webcast, please?
shep @ 76
I agree that this is an inflammatory bit of misdirection. To have a coherent policy, policymakers have to understand what the real issues are. By cooking up the EFP crisis, we miss the larger point of how Iran affects our efforts in Iraq and in the region. It’s another case of ignoring all of the 800 lb. gorillas in the room while concentrating on real but minor irritations. This whole outlook on foreign policy explains not why we will but why we already have failed in Iraq.
SeamusD @ 81
It’s on CSPAN 3
http://www.c-span.org/watch/in.....mp;Code=CS
Hey, anyone know when C-Span’s going to re-air the hearings? (I know they’re on now, but I missed everything up ’til now and I’d like to hear it from the start.) I didn’t see anything listed on C-Span’s schedule page, but thought maybe they might’ve said something earlier that someone heard. Thanks!
meep! @ 84
C-Span 1 at 8pm, according to folks in the previous thread.
kuchinich: no war with iran -
hillary, obama, edwards: all options regarding iran are ‘on the table’ -
meep! @84
You can watch them this evening online.
I don’t know when they will be re-aired on teevee.
Gee, use of explosive devices couldn’t be a problem because we left an entire warehouse of the fucking materials needed to make kablooie things unsecured during the initian invasion, could it?? A warehouse with enough kablooie stuff to last, oh, several wars, since you need only an ounce or two of the stuff to make things go kablooie in a big way.
And, gee, it doesn’t take anything to make a kablooie thing into a kablooie thing with flying parts except taping some nails to the damned kablooie thing.
BushCo has only itself to blame for the kablooie things being out there. They’re the ones who were so determined to prove that WMDs just had to be everywhere in Iraq that they left unsecured a weapon supply that could hurt our troops just as badly. But I guess these fuckers didn’t mind having our soldiers die in ones and twos a day at a time rather than hundreds or thousands or more. It just never occured to them that there might be an equally destructive inverse to Shock and Awe.
We failed in Iraq a long time ago. And now the Bush boys and girls are keeping us all amped up about Iran. The neocons and the Bush administration are going to blow the world up. If we let them.
Incidentally, Craig Murray, the former British ambassador to Uzbekistan who was kicked out because he wouldn’t keep quiet about human rights abuses, says that the whole British position on the captured sailors is bogus because the map they’re referring to has the British-drawn boundaries, and the only legal boundary would be one agreed to by Iraq and Iran, who haven’t done so. (He doesn’t give Iran much slack, either; says they should have released the sailors after making their point.)
’shock and awe pt.2′
‘mission accomplished pt.2′
A bit more of what I’ve read on EFP’s:
- requires only a metal disk (preferrably copper) and some C4.
- as light as five pounds.
- costs about $20 to make one.
- best if the disk is bowl shape — point mouth of bowl toward target and pack the bulged side with C4
- lethal to 100 yards
- can penetrate three inches of hardened steel
- Hezbollah has used them effectively in Southern Lebanon
- involved in less than 5% of attacks on US forces in Iraq
- caused more than 15% of US casualties in Iraq
- used by the Red Brigade in the Herrhausen assassination in Germany
Thanks!!
Wigwam @ 92
I think this is the same number as the 18% that Gordon uses. It apparently comes from the government but they have given out various numbers. So take that for what it’s worth. It is not independently verifiable. It refers only to the last 3 months of 2006 and includes both US and allied casualties during that period. Gordon admits that casualties from EFPs have been much less in 2007.
I fault Gordon both because he is too quick to accept government numbers without seeking to independently verify them and because he ignores how their use reflects the ebb and flow of US operations aimed at Shia militias.
Hugh @ 94
Thanks. I’m rather skeptical about much of the stuff that I read. What came through loud and clear, however, is that it doesn’t take Iranians to build EFPs; they’re a rather simple and fiendishly effective device.
Have the Iranians detained by the US in the northern Iraqi city of (Ramahdi?) been released?
selise @ 6
That went bye bye went Pelosi was booed at the A*p*c conference. She went back to her office and took that off the bill.
Wigwam @ 95
Exactly, we’re not talking about detonators for nuclear weapons or electronics for cruise missiles. It’s fairly low tech stuff which is essentially what you want when you are fighting in an asymmetric conflict: simple, lethal, and easy to get a hold of.
James Joyce @ 96
Erbil, no. There was some talk that they might be part of a quid pro quo for a release of the 15 Royal Marines.
Hugh @ 98
Porter claims that EFPs were what gave Hezbollah the edge in Southern Lebanon. There’s probably a lot more to it than that, but the ability to easily punch through armor tends to even up the fight.
The ability for irregulars to easily down helicopters would be devastating to U.S. forces in Iraq. Back in February it looked like the Sunnis had that capability, but since February the rate of helicopter loss seems to have subsided.
Dru @ 77
Yup. Good knife skills, Hugh! (as we say in cooking class).
Yes to this - and, brilliant dissection Hugh! Anyone know why Gordon is still at the times? At least this piece of crap was not page 1!
So every time we crack down on the shia and let the sunni roam free, we get killed by Saudi funded IEDs. What is so hard about understanding that?