Yesterday, the Senate voted 50 to 48 to defeat a Republican effort to strip a phased withdrawal provision from the $122 billions Iraq supplemental appropriations bill. It was a significant victory for Democrats, who held together (see Times tally), losing only Arkansas Senator Pryor, while reclaiming Senator Nelson (Neb) and picking up support from Republican Senators Hagel (Neb) and Smith (Oregon). Here’s how the WaPo described the vote:
In [a] vote several weeks ago on a similar measure, only 48 senators supported the timeline for withdrawal. But today, the Democrats secured the votes of Sen. Ben Nelson (D-Neb.) and Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-Neb.).
The vote came after the White House reiterated President Bush’s threat to veto any bill that sets deadlines for the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq.
In intensive floor debate before the vote, supporters of the amendment argued that including a deadline for withdrawal from Iraq — even though it is put forth in the Senate bill as a nonbinding “goal” — would hand victory to America’s enemies, while opponents of it said it was time to stop giving President Bush a “blank check” to continue a failed war policy.
The Cochran amendment would have removed language in the emergency spending bill that requires U.S. combat troops to begin leaving Iraq within four months of enactment and sets a goal of completing their withdrawal by March 31, 2008. However, the amendment would have left in place a set of nonbinding political and economic benchmarks for the Iraqi government. The benchmarks, originally put forward by the Bush administration, were added to the bill last week to win the support of Nelson, a key conservative Democrat.
I think much credit for the Senate vote should go to House Speaker Pelosi for pulling off an improbable 218-212 victory last week on a withdrawal deadline in the House version of the Supplemental Appropriations bill. That provided the momentum for the Senate leadership to pull in Nelson and hold together all but one of their troops despite threats of a Presidential veto, blustering by Cheney, and claims by McCain that the surge is already succeeding, while withdrawal “risks a catastrophe for American national security interests.” Ex-Democrat Joe Lieberman added that setting timetables would “snatch defeat from the jaws of success progress.” (h/t tommy yum)
CNN’s Michael Ware had a memorable response to Senator McCain’s claims that the surge was succeeding so well that one could now safely stroll on Baghdad’s streets. Given anti-American insurgents, terrorists, militias and kidnappers, “you wouldn’t last 20 seconds out there,” Ware explained. “I don’t know what part of NeverLand McCain was talking about.”
There are still dozens of other amendments pending on the Senate bill. But if this initial vote holds, the Democrats will go into House-Senate conference committee after both bodies supported some type of timetable for troop withdrawal, along with non-binding benchmarks the Iraqis are expected to meet. The House bill also contains US troop readiness provisions that Murtha championed.
No one yet expects the President to abandon his threat to veto any bill with withdrawal timetables, benchmarks or troop readiness conditions. Nor is anyone predicting the Democrats will suddenly find the additional votes necessary to override that veto. But the President must now pay a price for his veto, and his party may suffer even more.
As these votes pile up, the unified Democrats are not just moving to end this war. They are forcing the Republicans to cast one uncomfortable vote after another against the wishes of the American people. Republicans are being forced to vote over and over to support a President against whom the American people have turned in large numbers. They’re being forced to vote not only for an unpopular war but an open-ended war without timetables for getting out. They’re voting against provisions that ensure our troops are properly trained, equipped and rested. And they’re voting against holding the Iraq government accountable for meeting the political benchmarks that even Republicans think are essential for making progress. And by fully funding the President’s request to support the troops, and his surge, the Democratic bills removed the Republicans’ only argument that might have resonated with the voters.
No Republican concerned about the Party’s prospects in 2008 and beyond can be happy about the predicament they’re now in, and some must be in agony. The President and his war are dragging them inexorably into a declining minority, and sooner or later, they’re going to have to let go of both. I know the thought of funding the war is loathsome to many, but I’m convinced it’s not politically feasible to end America’s occupation while Bush/Cheney remain in office, so let’s hope yesterday’s vote brings us one step closer to ending this regime.
Related posts:
- Jim McGovern Catches #RahmFlu, Flips His Vote
- Kucinich, Woolsey Urge Colleagues to Vote “No” on Supplemental
- Interview With Barney Frank: Why He’s Switching His Vote on the Supplemental
- Senate Finance Delays Health Care Vote: Did Baucus Screw Wyden and Lose His Vote?
- Senate Fails First Cloture Vote on “Doc Fix”





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reid! pelosi!
Get the picture. The number one opponent of U.S. withdrawl from Iraq is Osama bin Laden. A presidential veto of this bill would gladden our enemy. It would “aid” him and “comfort” him.
Great one, as usual, scarecrow.
Actually, Lieberman said we were “snatching defeat from the jaws of progress,” which is infinitely more mushy and lame.
Since I believe it to be his epitaph, we should get the quote right. Progress, in Holy Joe’s eyes, is achieved only when every Iraqi has a cell phone to call Allah when they’ve been blown up and ask for the miracle of a staffed hospital.
McCain isn’t the visual that I get when I think of Peter Pan. Though I’m sure he has someone on his shoulder talking into his ear, I’m betting that it’s dressed in red with a pitch fork and doesn’t spew fairy dust…
Good morning, scarecrow!
I can’t imagine he would veto this bill. And then what?
OK, so when do we get to deal with Lieberman? After yesterday’s vote, does it really matter if he switches parties? He’s already done so in everything but name.
EPU’d Still OT but I really want to know if the Director of the FBI purjered himself yesterday :-)
Did FBI Director Mueller the latest to commit purgery yesterday in front of the Senate Judiciary committee? It sure sounded like it to me. When asked why the So. Cal FBI office objected to the removal of Carol Lam he denied they had done so saying they had been misquoted. Anyone have the quote? There are references to it in DAG000000309, DAG000000343,DAG000000344, DAG000001470 and elsewhere but I have yet to find the original statement.
Bush/Cheney have yet to realize that their freaking monarchy is over.
Future votes will only draw more Republicans.
“you wouldn’t last 20 seconds out there,” Ware explained. “I don’t know what part of NeverLand McCain was talking about.
McCain: “and I’m gonna send my pal Joe Lieberman over there to prove it!”
(yeah, I know – no posting pre-coffee)
Netjet guy on Imus now trying to talk him into going to Iraq. Maybe he ought to talk to Michael Ware first.
egregious @ 5
He will veto it. If he didn’t, it’d be the equivalent of his father breaking his “no new taxes” pledge as far as his base is concerned. Must avoid being a wimp like his father at all costs, you know…
Good Morning Scarecrow and Firedogs,
well I couldn’t have found it laid out any better than that anywhere Scarecrow
just happened to catch Straightalk on the Today show – what in heaven could possibly be the political calculation here ???
and hey Tommy, I’m sure that staffed hospital is “just a short ride”
cbl @ 12
Heh. Indeedy.
Spunkmeyer @ 6
Would Liebermann’s switch of party impact the chairmanships of the various senate committees?
Very good analysis, Scarecrow. It may be painful but this is how it’s done, one excruciating chess move at a time.
It is a great political chess game. The Democrat leadership against the White House and both sides are using the Republican Senators as pawns. Impeacment would be a few short moves to checkmate.
Wigwam @ 14
As I understand it, the D’s made a rule change to the effect that any change in numbers of members caucusing would not effect committee chairs.
tommy yum @ 3
Thanks tommy for spotting that one. I fixed it. I can’t keep the image of Robert Shaw out of my head, wondering what he regards as “progress” as he slides into the jaws.
Good morning everyone.
If you’ve not seen it, you’ll enjoy this op-ed from today’s compost:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01722.html
[Link repaired by moderator]
Two of my favorite quotes include the following:
“But their total and apparently ongoing inability to shift gears once the Democrats had taken control — with an oversight policy that could be summarized as “You Did WHAT?” — is mind-boggling.” (Boy, do I hope the Waxman seeth this one!) *g*
“Meanwhile, if you hear something go bump in the night, it’s the Republicans, sleepwalking.”
Is that you, Tom Mattzie?
But, surely, that’s precisely what the Dems aim to do is to provide a further blank check to the Bu$hlerites. They show every intention of funding not only the ongoing unilateral wars, but the escalation of war in the region to include Iran.
There will be a supplementary funding request by this summer, for another US$100,000,000 or so. The Dems at the rate they’re going will apparently oblige again. Meanwhile, Kathy Kelly intends to proceed with the second phase of Operation Blockade. She knows for certain what the Dems will be doing by then, viz., shirking their responsibility to fulfill their mandate.
And what of the timeline? It’s scheduled to begin in earnest by end of the next fiscal year. What a coincidence!
Spot on, Scarecrow. Excellent post!
What saddens me most is that one of my senators, John Sununu, is a basically a decent man. He is very very good on Domestic Violence issues, he is very responsive to his constituents and, even though he was “elected” in a tainted election he defeated a product of the DLC (in effect we got a “real” republican instead of a republican lite in Jeanne Shaheen).
I have been in contact with his office almost daily on this issue of continuing to murder the Iraqi peoples and American soldiers but he has stubornly stuck with the idiot in the WH. He is up for “reelection” this time around and, as he well knows, is extremely vulnerable on this issue. What baffles me is that he still sticks with what even the dumbest of the dumb knows is a losing proposition. I begin to wonder just how much these bushies have on some of the elected officials, what is it they hold over their heads? What dirty secrets do they have in their closets that force them to follow, lemming like, the dictates of the bushies? Knowing full well that the bushies will stop at nothing to hold on to power I wonder just how much blackmail is being employed?
Just a thought.
if this bill gets to house/senate conference to iron out the differences – it is, imo, extremely important that the senate version NOT be used…
it looks to me that the senate version has a gigantic loop hole for bush to use to continue his war/occupation…. but, i would love to hear from the legal experts.
here are the most relevant bits (via marty lederman at balkinization – please see his post for lots more of the bills’ language and links to the bills themselves):
the house bill (H.R. 1591), section 1904 (b)(1)(d):
the senate bill – the Byrd Amendment to H.R. 1591, sections 1315 (b)(2):
[my emphasis above]
analysis from marty:
please read the whole thing… marty lederman has done just what we need – an analysis of the actual bills. thank you marty!
Henry is now digging into why the CIA blocked correction of the Senate Intelligence Committee report that had claimed that Joe Wilson was recommended by Valerie Letter to Hayden. It just keeps getting better.
Ooh, I got a “h/t.” Thanks!
The Republicans could have filibustered this. Why didn’t they? Are they really so demoralized, or chastened by the recent election, or becoming dimly aware of the people’s will? Or are they deliberately cutting Bush loose? I mean, it’s obvious to all but the 18 percenters that he’s all liability and no asset.
Waccamaw, the WaPo link isn’t working for me. Can you doublecheck it? Thanks!
[Link was repaired by moderator, try it again.]
Scarecrow,
Fully agree with your analysis.
I suggest the following wording, however, as an alternative manner. It is important to frame the funding vs. troop support issue as accurately as possible given the level of GOP dissembling on this critical matter.
The Democrats are supporting the troops in the ways that matter and in stark contrast to this administration and certainly in dramatic contrast to the preceeding Congresses controlled by unfit Republican-Americans.
However, I am leery of any suggestiong that Mister Bush’s appropriation request supports the troops. That is just not true and I don’t think conflating the two notions presents the best argument for the Democratic victory on this vote.
slainte,
cl
Good morning Ms. Hamsher. Nice warm day to take the dogss for a walk, no? They must be loving this.
Brooks now on Imus–concern trolling about the Edwardses little kids. He references a ComPost piece today.
Eff you, Brooks.
Where’s your concern about the little kids whose parents are getting blown up in Iraq…our soldiers as well as little kids watching their parents die from IEDs on the streets of Iraq?
Where’s your concern about the little kids who had to endure the Superdome…and still can’t go home in NOLA?
Where’s your concern about the little kids in hospital ERs with parents panicked because they’re out of work and don’t have money for medicine?
Where’s your concern, Brooks?
Why is there a new openness exhibited by the Edwardses? Here’s your answer, Brooks…because there are now so freakin’ many people living with cancer that people understand the Edwardses choices. And respect them.
Brooks on Imus: “the AG has two jobs – one is to be the legal protector of the President, and the other is to oversee a large part of the legal system in the country.”
I’m stupefied by teh stupid.
Bonnie @ 5:41 -
Apologies. I’ll go get it for you but I’m on dial-up so it’s gonna take a few. Back asap.
[Here — wapo link provided by moderator]
cl at 27 — I like your wording.
egregious @ 4
i’ve also been thinking that bush would sign the bill (with one of his signing statements), take the $ and then do just whatever he wants.
but i didn’t think reid could get a timed withdrawal through the senate – so i’m hoping that my string of being wrong (about how the supplemental funding would go down) will continue…
jayt @ 30
Uh…. NO!
Telling, isn’t it that Lieberman changed the idiomatic expression “snatching defeat from the jaws of victory” to “jaws of success“
Was wondering when I heard it on the news last night whether I was reading too much into his choice of words. Appreciate seeing other folks had the same impression. He has defined down this horrible misadventure once again.
slainte,
cl
What drives me crazy about this is that the only argument for not pulling out of Iraq today is that it would decend into civil war. We don’t know that would happen. That’s just an assumption based on dubious assessments of what’s going on there now.
Jane’s chess analogy @ 15 is a good one. If you get up a pawn, you don’t automatically win. You have to play slowly and carefully to insure that the small advantage turns into a win. Good play by our leader Nancy Pelosi will eventually get us where we want to go.
Dear Mods -
I LOVE you guys; thanks for fixing my boo-boo @ 19.
selise @
23
Marty does excellent analyses. His analsyses of the various drafts of the MCA were masterpieces.
Scarecrow @ top:
Just a caution to anyone reassessing Hegel in light of this vote. Personally, I like Hegel — he’s generally straightforward, and isn’t afraid to criticize the administration.
BUT, for example, just a few weeks ago Hegel voted to BAN the minimun wage. Not raise, not leave it where it is, but completely get rid of it.
Hegel’s a diehard conservative. Never forget it.
That said, he’s also from Nebraska, an extremely conservative state. He had little, if anything, to gain from opposing the Cochran amendment, yet he did so. It’s also possible that Hegel’s own principled stand on this issue helped sway our own Nelson over to the opposition column — after all, Nelson would have looked pretty uncomfortable if his Republican counterpart from NE opposed the Cochran amendment while Nelson voted against his own party.
So, I respect Hegel. I”d never vote for him, but I respect the position he’s taken on Iraq.
Twobits @
16
That’s very good.
tommy yum @ 3
but if they need an abortion, the miracle would be for a cab idling at the curb to take them to the OTHER hospital on the other side of their atomized city.
jayt @
30
Protecting the President in legal matters is the job of White House Counsel and not of the AG, a point that seems to have escaped Gonzales.
OT: Iran freeing the female sailor today or tomorrow per msnbc.
Twobits @ 15
looks like it… and much preferable to when our soldiers/marine and the iraqi people are being used as the pawns.
let’s get this chess game back where it belongs.
JF @ 17
That’s my understanding as well…
JGabriel @ 40
Progressives can make common cause with libertarians and paleoconservatives on foreign affairs and most civil liberties. But those have infinite faith in the goodness of the unseen hand. Any interference with it is an act against nature.
Wigwam @ 43
Oh good grief. Did he really say that? If we can get a link/quote, that one goes to the front page.
Jane Hamsher @
15
It’s finally sunk in with the Democrats that Republicans have much, MUCH more to lose by going on record (especially for the war) than Democrats do.
These two votes were tough, but I have a feeling that future ones will be a lot easier, especially with Hagel and Smith breaking the ice jam. Just as Murtha’s conversion was made more credible by his military background (we’re talking about a guy who likely would have been Commandant of the Corps had he stayed in), Hagel’s military history will help get the fencesitters in the Indies/thinking Republicans side to make the jump.
JGabriel @ 40
not to go all copyeditor on you, but it’s hagel.
he’s no philosopher.
biff diggerence @
8
Yep, the tide is turning. If / when Bush vetoes this bill, I think Congress should return a supplemental with even more binding timelines.
There should be more support for it by then, and forcing him to withdraw from Iraq via ever more binding legislation — rather than rewarding his temper tantrums — is the only way to get us out of this neverending war death spiral.
So the Dems sent Bush a message and he’ll veto it. Then do we get to impeach him? Why all this pissing around with deadlines? Let’s put these guys in jail where they belong.
Did anyone read the Friedman editorial today? Disgusting. And totally typical.
Scarecrow @ 47
yeah, he did. I re-wound it a couple of time to be sure. (I may have garbled the second part a little, but he definitely said that the AG’s job is to be the legal protector of the pres).
[Mod note: please watch the multiple re-quotes, thank you.]
‘Morning, FirePups, Scarecrow, Jane. Nice work, Scarecrow, as always. And Jane’s analogy is apt, a game of chess. Keeping that in mind, sometimes the winning move is one that must be adjudicated, when the king is boxed into a corner and there are no clear cut final moves. We are boxing them into a corner whenever we cannot checkmate them.
looseheadprop — you out there? did you note the incoming?
Georgesimian @ 36
It’s not just that we don’t know what would happen. There are two sides to this decision — what will happen if we leave and what will happen if we stay, and the silence on the other half speaks volumes. Unless supporters who say that can make a convincing argument that staying longer means Iraq won’t descend into civil war, keeping troops there is just delaying that, not preventing it, and the lives and billions are truly wasted.
The Republican plan is to stay in Iraq until victory or forever, whichever comes first.
reading the C&L link about Bush’s sinking numbers among Utah mormons (loss of 21 pts in 5 mos.) –
would love to see JAR #’s for Idaho but can’t find any on current Survey USA page and I checked in w/ state’s 2 larget newspapers
anyone ?
jayt @ 30
WTF? It is the White House Counsel’s job to be the legal protetor of the president.
It is the Soliciator genreal’s job to be the president’s designated hitter in the Supreme Court.
It is the AG’s job TO BE THE CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OF THE UNITED STATES
as exasperating to those of us who want sharp reversals of course immediately, it’s apparently not easy to achieve.
this incremental work is tedious, yes, and not without its hazards, but in the main the dems are accomplishing a lot, step by step.
they are changing the climate of policy, and of coverage. they are pulling the lines of debate back into something most people can call a center, instead of the right-wing. and they are making it easier for more votes on matters of consequence that draw stronger and stronger majorities.
kids, we may not like the pace of their exertions, but it’s hard to turn a runaway train that’s had six years of steam in one direction. and it’s impressive what they’re starting to accomplish in the face of a still hefty opposition from repubs in congress, the administration and an-ever-twas-thus pigheaded media.
Twobits @ 16
someone else with my sense of things. well said.
“I know the thought of funding the war is loathesome to many, but I’m convinced it’s not politically feasible to end America’s occupation while Bush/Cheney remain in office..”
I wish I could argue with you onthis one, Scarecrow, but it would be futile, you are spot-on with this virtual realism.
Still, there are many of us who have known so much disappointment because it took so long for the general public to understand the trurh.
I was part of the anti-war movement in the Sacramento/Davis CA area BEFORE this war began.
The layers of disappontment that we all suffered as one day of deceit led to another, and war grew more likely with such impending certainty, caused one of the most depressing and frustrating chapters of my life.
Now, as the tide turns ever so slowly towards public reason instead of national insanity, those constant disappointments are peeling away, like layers of storm clouds, to show a bright, shining morning on the new horizon.
But some of those clouds (Iran) are still hanging out there, always threatening, always glowering, to constantly remind us that the leaders we choose can determine our political and cultural weather forecast, and if we are not vigilant in choosing those leaders, the storm clouds of war will forever threaten.
Peace is not a political ideology, it is the ultimate, and infinite objective that we must always seek, and the finest proof of our cultural evolution and civilization.
looseheadprop @ 56
umm, did I mention that it was David Brooks that said this – not me?
Rayne @ 54
Incoming? Did you send email? I’ll go check
JF @ 17
think this only works up to a tie (Dems = Reps). If Republicans were to gain the majority (through any number of scenarios), all bets are off.
oops. sorry about the zigs. wasnt paying attention. more coffee please.
dmg @ 58
There’s some truth in this, but the crimes and corruption are just so evident. Did you read the Freidman editorial in the NYT today? And firing attorneys because they’re not investigating Democrats who didn’t do anything, but are investigating Republican corruption? And then there’s the old list.
lol – never mind my request for Idaho polling data – there’s a front page diary on it today over at Big Orange
There is no way that Bush and Cheney will end this war while they are in power, because if they did, they would lose all their power. It is difficult to impeach a President and more difficult when one is at war, but that’s the only way this is going to stop before 2008 (and maybe beyond).
Scarecrow @ 18
One thing is certain, the jaws of progress have very sharp teeth…
I’m still trying to figure out how they are corrupting federal judges, whether they are interfering with the nomination process or actually putting pressure on them during cases. Yay Soviet Union.
Q. “What dirty secrets do they have in their closets that force them to follow, lemming like, the dictates of the bushies?”
A. Campaign financing by major players in the congressional-military-industrial-complex.
Who needs skeletons in your closet when elections cost a billion bucks a year?
But, I guess you could say the campaign finance scam alone is the biggest skeleton of them all.
henry waxman is now my favorite TV star….
today at 10am (on c-span3) the house committee on oversight and government reform: “Allegations of Misconduct at the General Services Administration“. testifying are senator Chuck Grassley, Lurita Doan, GSA Administrator and Brian Miller, GSA Inspector General.
this could be interesting…
Georgesimian @ 65
hey, you’re absolutely right — as for me, i cannot believe there’s any question that the whole frickin administration should be impeached in a nanosecond.
the most heartening thing, i think, is that the dems have by and large tuned out msm criticism of what they’re doing and remained on course.
Spunkmeyer @ 11
we will see about that. this is the big poker game. the democrats didn’t blink. now we’ll see just how stubborn fuckwad really is. you can be sure he’s not happy about being in this position. it could just be another promise that he conveniently decides he never made.
dmg @ 72
I guess, to a point. At least they’re not afraid to shout back anymore. I still can’t believe how united the Repug machine operates. One of them says that, the earth has only warmed one degree in a hundred years and suddenly everyone is saying it. There are two WSJ editorials today about how there was no crime when they fired the attorneys and how Congress has no rights to subpeona anyone working for or near the President. That’s an opinion?!
IIRC, the distinction between the duties of WH Counsel and AG were discussed extensively during Gonzales’s confirmation. Gonzales insisted that he understood, but then went on advising Bush on matters of legal casuistry, i.e., how to implement his outrageous political agenda without going to jail. (Of course, he has done an incompetent job of that too.)
[Mod Note; Please only nest 2 or 3 quotes at a maximum. Any more may break the margins. Thank You.]
Georgesimian @ 67
Imho majority public opinion is already against the war, and it will soon follow that public opinion will be that W lied us into it. Then, I believe, all bets will be off and all precedents irrelevant. Because we as a majority (finally!!!) will stop believing that Osama/Saddam attacked the USA at the WTC, and that W trumped it all up out of whole cloth. Then, watch the fur fly!
For me, the only issue is “is there enough time for all this to happen before the next election cycle?” and to that I reply that if the second opinion shift comes to pass, along with it will come the realization that if we as a nation do not act to redress our grievances and bind up the grave wounds to our Constitution, that we will have let W set a dangerous precedent. We simply MUST impeach, if we as a people realize that W has committed one of the highest crimes possible.
YMMV of course…
jayt @ 30
I’m no legal scholar, but doesn’t the AG “protect” the law of the land, the U.S. Constitution?
I know, it’s a crazy concept. But I did stay in in a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Redshift @ 55
… or until America’s ground forces are totally destroyed, in which case we can outsource the protection of the nation to CACI and Blackwater.
This is a bit off topic but I think relevant.
Amnesty International is supporting the Specter/ Graham bill that would restore Habeas Corpus to our already mangled and draconian military commissions regulations. This is a no brainer. Don’t you think it would be nice to know why they came to arrest you and why you are being held in a secret jail? That’s what happened to my grandfather 50 years ago under Stalin. We didn’t find out what the charges were until 30 years after they put a bullet in the back of his head.
Funny enough, that’s the way the rules are written now, HERE! — Habeas Corpus is a basic tenet in our laws and separates us from third rate banana republics… oh wait, we have become a third rate banana republic! So, let’s change that. Gee, even reactionaries like Specter and Graham are sponsoring this bill and these boys ain’t progressive by any means!
Remember that old line about not saying anything when they came to get your neighbor and again not saying anything when they came to get your other neighbor? And when they came to get you, there was no one left to say anything! That’s the way it happens, so don’t think it couldn’t happen here…
Go and do, it don’t cost nothin’ and it will make you feel better. Please pass this on to anyone you know that has half a brain and maybe a smidgin of conscience.
Click here.
Rayne,
I read the E Pluribus post and the comment thread. Darlin’ I am so very sad to say I only understood about 25% of it. I have pathetic tech skills and know almost no tech jargon so the signifigance of most of that was lost on me.
By the same token, unless somebody in Waxman’s shop is a tech guru, I don’t think they will get it either.
I mean this not as a critisism, but as a positiive suggestion. We need a version of that, so filled with explaination, that my mother (who cannot even email and only got her first cellphone 2 months ago) will be able to understand it.
Assume that so basic a term as “domain name” is a foreign language.
I’m gonna go back and check the Kos version
Wigwam @ 47
True. For instance, Bill Safire and Bob Barr — wankers extraordinaire though they typically be — have usually been very good on civil liberties.
On the other hand, I think it remains a concern that such values are generally waning in Mainstream Republicanism ™ as neocons and the religious right authoritarians take over the party. Fortunately they seem to be cannibalizing themselves in a constant contest of who’s holier than thou, so maybe that problem will self-correct over the next decade or so.
i Brooks on Imus: “the AG has two jobs – one is to be the legal protector of the President
TiredFed @ 63
I don’t think so. This post by Hilzoy at Obsidian Wings makes it pretty clear (and has links to the Senate organizing resolutions for this Congress as opposed to the 107th.)
The 107th had provisions for power-sharing and a change in power, which got in because the Senate was 50-50 and Gore was still the tiebreaker until January 20th. The resolutions for the 110th Congress simply say “these are the committee chairs.”
S.O.S. from MA @ 76
Imho majority public opinion is already against the war, and it will soon follow that public opinion will be that W lied us into it. Then, I believe, all bets will be off and all precedents irrelevant. Because we as a majority (finally!!!) will stop believing that Osama/Saddam attacked the USA at the WTC, and that W trumped it all up out of whole cloth. Then, watch the fur fly!
For me, the only issue is “is there enough time for all this to happen before the next election cycle?” and to that I reply that if the second opinion shift comes to pass, along with it will come the realization that if we as a nation do not act to redress our grievances and bind up the grave wounds to our Constitution, that we will have let W set a dangerous precedent. We simply MUST impeach, if we as a people realize that W has committed one of the highest crimes possible.
YMMV of course…
I think everyone thinks this already, but the Repug half of the country are all still hating the Dems because of the six years of Repug hatred against them. They’d rather just let him run his term out. And they think the msm is run by left-wing lunatics, so they don’t really have to agree with any fact that the news may uncover. That was clearly part of the plan.
Brooks on Imus: “the AG has two jobs - one is to be the legal protector of the President
heh heh.
Like a Mob Lawyer.
dmg @ 50
Fuck, I knew that. Thanks for the correction dmg. Unfortunately, it’s too late for me to correct those posts.
But thanks anyway. It is appreciated.
from senate.gov:
does anyone know how it is decided who will be on the senate/house conference committee to reconcile the supplemental funding bills?
i’m wondering who will be on this committee, who will chair it? any ideas firepups?
Beyond impeachment question: If W runs his term out, what legal recourse exists to make him accountable after he becomes basebal commish?
Caoimhin Laochdha @ 35
I think it’s significant because it shows that now even Joe Lieberman can’t say we’re succeeding with a straight face. It’s a tragic kind of marker of the debate, but it’s a very clear marker.
For those of you wondering about what happens in the Senate if Lieberman switches party, read this dKos diary. The long and the short: nothing happens automatically, Harry Reid is still Majority Leader, Dems keep their chairs. There might be an ugly floor fight, but Dems “control their own destiny” in that fight–they could filibuster if they so desired and guarantee they’d keep a hold.
This is different from the “Jeffords Congress” where there were special provisions written into the organizing resolutions for what happens in case of a party switch.
Given the ‘08 Senate electoral map in the end I think Lieberman wants to stay on Harry’s good side, and Harry knows it.
Always on topic, I just called Senator Norm Coleman’s office in DC to express my disgust.
Poor guy just doesn’t know how this Senatorin’ thing works; support my constituency, or support Bush? Ah. Bush.
Then his answering machine fills up with hate mail.
This guy is so gone in ‘08.
fyi -
(correction)
the NickOdemus link above is for Amnesty International pet. supporting a bill sponsored by Specter and Patrick Leahy, not Huckleberry
and NickOdemus, you do understand that Specter was part of the cloakroom cabal that got that atrocity passed in the first place doncha ?
CBL at 91
Sure, I know that. But even douchebags do the right thing once in a while, despite themselves.
Georgesimian @ 84
Well your mileage certainly varies from mine :) It appears to me, though, that the part of your post that I quoted contains a contradiction which if eliminated might cause a change in national course.
If “everyone thinks this” then it follows that the “Repug half of the country” is not really a half, but a shrinking minority. Which, mercifully, seems actually to be the case — the (R) party identification, as shown by a previous FDL thread, is in fact way smaller than the (D) identification. And it will necessarily shrink going forward, with all the scandals now breaking over their dimwitted heads. To paraphrase the Giant in The Princess Bride, “I don’t think that 29-percent still means what you think it means…”
So what will happen when it becomes HUGELY apparent that W has screwed us? So apparent that the political affiliation of the MSM (whatever it is) becomes irrelevant to the enormity of the crimes committed against us by our opwn Administration?
I said what I think will happen; and it’s OK for your mileage to vary, of course… :)
Redshift @ 83. Thanks for the link. Will go read now. Not sure what would stop majority from voting in new rules, though.
biff diggerence @ 85
Consigliere
Georgesimian @ 74
Well, it’s certainly not a fact.
Georgesimian @ 74
I realized last night that there’s a Republican talking point that has become extremely widespread since the Libby trial, and we really need to make it an albatross around their necks:
“If no one was convicted of a crime, we didn’t do anything wrong.”
Really? That’s your definition of “honor and dignity”? Heck, even the most diehard liberal will admit that Clinton “did something wrong.” But we have Tom DeLay claiming that being indicted by a Texas grand jury is a left-wing conspiracy and he did nothing wrong because he hasn’t been convicted, and every wingnut high and low claiming that White House personnel “did nothing wrong” by outing a spy because no one was convicted of it, and that because no crime was committed in the firing of the US attorneys, that means “no one acted improperly” because the president “has the right to fire them for any reason.”
If that’s where they want to make their stand, then by all means, let’s help them. If they can make hay for years over one statement of “what the meaning of ‘is’ is,” we surely can make something of hundreds of them over and over saying that they have lowered their standards to “if no one was convicted, we did nothing wrong.”
JF @ 17
There is still a great deal of confusion about this.
The current organizing resolution names the Democratic chairmanships. However, if the majority shifts, as it did in 2001, control goes to the GOP. The Republicans then put into place a new organizing resolution naming the GOP committee chairs. The Democrats keep the chairman/chairwomanships of committees for the entire session UNLESS, control shifts – that’s the point.
If the GOP gains a majority, the Senate passes a new organizing resolution and the GOP will then control the committees. No one would be talking about this subject if it worked any differently. If it was just a matter of Lieberman caucusing w/the GOP because of his vote, no one would care. He votes that way already.
The issue is switching caucus and thus switching control. This is why it is any issue – BUT AN ACADEMIC ONE because he will not switch, he has too much to lose from doing so. First and foremost, he loses his threat to switch which is his biggest ego gratifying “asset” right now.
Lieberman will not switch because he loses all power and all leverage if he does. He can throw power, sure, but once he does, he’s done too and no longer can he exert any influence as he only buys his way into a dwindling minority.
The reality is, the biggest threat to Democratic control is an unexpected Heinze/Wellstone type tragedy. Not to be grim, but we need to be far more concerned about keeping Democratic Senators from states w/GOP governors healthy than we do about Lieberman switching. I am far more concerned about Lieberman having a heart attack or quitting the Senate at this point than I am of him switching. Were he to accept a nomination for a cabinet position, then we truly would have a problem since Connecticut has a GOP Governor. This is the dilemma the GOP faced in 2001 when they expected Strom Thurmond to become dearly departed at any moment. At the time, South Carolina had a Democratic Governor (Easly).
I truly believe this is an academic issue because Lieberman cannot/will not switch. The idea that the Dems are entitled to their chairmanships if they lose control, however, is just plain wrong.
slainte,
cl
[Mod note: please don’t requote more than twice, thanks. The Margin Faerie]
erm,
i think his deck is half empty
jayt @ 30
OT: I could use some recommendations for my Roots Project diary at dkos.
Thanks!
looseheadprop @ 80
I missed that post, but I assume it had to do with the external emailing systems WH officials have been using. Can you provide a link or more info where I can find the post, please.
I hope Waxman has some talented technical gurus for computer forensics in all of these scandals — there is nothing like hard evidence.
so, this is what we have to look forward to gang: A Conference Committee vote, another vote by the House, another vote by the Senate and then, maybe, a veto. Then two more votes, one in each house of Congress to attempt to override. At each point, the themes of supporting the troops (which this legislation does better than Bush), providing the funding and ending this seemingly endless war need to be repeated. Then we start all over again (assuming Bush vetoes and override is unsuccessful).
Wigwam @ 95
… or taking it from another angle, “public zampolit” as opposed to Rove, W’s “private zampolit.” But in the case of the AG, I think we’re all saying that it’s totally ridiculous to assert any sort of “legal protector of the Prez” role for the AG. That’s what the position of “Counsel to the President” is for.
egregious @ 69
Corrupting the nominations process (hugely) and putting pressure on good judges to resign to create vacancies.
Though I know of no specific instance of direct pressure on a judge during a specific case, there have been generalized vague comments made by judges that suggest that such a thing is not impossible.
selise @ 87
Reid (leader) and Levin (Chair armed services) pick the Senate conferees. I believe it is the same procedure in the House (Speaker/chair of committee w/jurisdiction).
slainte,
cl
Exactly!
As we reconsider the war and all the people in it, special attention must be given to:
cui bono?
Whose ends have been furthered, and whose have not?
OBL – Benefited
Iranian extremists – Benefited
North Korea – Benefited
Military contractors – Big Time!
American military – nope
American security – nope
American taxpayers – nope
American infrastructure – mebbe a little in the transportation sector
Wigwam @ 2
Caoimhin Laochdha @ 98
Thanks for the clarification.
I’m convinced too. Good post SC.
“How about a little fire, Scarecrow?”
OT–Mark Foley update: Foley Back From Rehab; Florida Considering Charges
This is just the tactic the Republicans used to use on the Dems, except on crap non-issues like flag-burning.
How nice to see this come back to bite Reps in the ass!
eCAHNomics @ 109
But since he hasn’t been convicted, he hasn’t done anything wrong, right?
lhp on federal judges—
Hadn’t considered pressure on sitting federal judges to resign to make way for more Rove-bots. Duh. Like the prosecutors isn’t it? Well back to work.
looseheadprop @ 80
lhp, start with this comment in the DailyKos version; there will a couple handfuls of explanatory comments after that which should help.
domain name = name chosen for all internet content related to a business or function, like “firedoglake.com” or “dailykos.com”. Your email address displays a domain name, like “yahoo.com” or “gmail.com”. A domain name can be assigned to a portion of a computer, or an entire computer, or an entire farm of servers.
Using the telephone number analogy, a domain name also functions like the 800-number of a business — best example is its use in a website address. A user doesn’t have to “dial” the exact number of the FireDogLake server; they only have to “dial” the 800-number that has been selected generally for ease of use. (http://www.firedoglake.com is the equivalent of dialing 1-800-firedog, capice?)
Now I have to add this to the explainer in the thread at DKos…
E Pluribus link
http://scoop.epluribusmedia.or…..22612/9031
Caoimhin Laochdha @ 104
thank you… it looks like the next big battle wrt the scope and strength of the withdrawal timeline will be in the conference committee. (of course, anything is still possible with amendments yest to be voted on this week).
Redshift @ 97
Exactly!!
We’ve also got to get quicker on the comeback to the notion that “US attorneys serve at ‘the pleasure of the president.’” Of course they do, and who gets fired reveals a lot about what pleasures and displeasures this president. It shows that this president has a proclivity for corruption and for circumventing the spirit of the U.S. Constitution.
egregious @ 112
More importantly, this was going on in the first term. As was USA packing. None of this is a brand new thing. They have been doing it from the start
J Gabriel @ 40:
I just wrote to a couple of my friends who live in NE and asked them to write to both of their senators. Anyone else out there — please do the same?
Phoenix Woman @49:
Another category of fencesitting Repubs:
1. Indies
2. Thinking
3. None of the above (aka Up for re-election in ‘08)
;)
Rayne @ 113
Rayne, I saw that.
My suggestion was to do a rewrite to send to Waxman (and both Intelligence Committees BTW) that has the explainations right in it.
Otherwise, I’m afraid no one will read it through. You need a thresh hold pursuasive document to win over the Congressman or Senator, then when you get referred to ta tech savvy staffer or consultant, you can launch into the jargon laden shorthand
Quzi @ 101
Al Capone went down for tax evasion — “one helluva tax evader”. Perhaps Karl Rove will go down for violation of the Presidential Records Act.
Wigwam @ 116
They jump the gun. Before you can convict someone of a crime, you HAVE TO INVESTIGATE to see if a crime has been committed and if you have a provable case.
Regarding teh e-mail, domain names and RNC addys: Somehow Greg Palast managed to become a recipient of e-mail in their little “insider” network during the purge of Florida voters. One of the GWB domains in which there was a .org and a .com and someone sent him the purge lists by mistake.
When he wrote his latest book, it was outed. BTW, he is starting a new national tour next month for the paperback version. I hope his people have been in contact with FDL for the FDL book club round.
Thanks LHP and Rayne on the links. I work in technology and have been very interested in this story.
We’ve also got to get quicker on the comeback to the notion that “US attorneys serve at ‘the pleasure of the president.’”
They hold their jobs “at the pleasure of the president,” but they don’t decide whom and how to prosecute at the pleasure of the President, let alone his chief election/political adviser.
Per everyone else scarecrow, thanks very much.
Per cl and others above, I appreciate the need for word-smithing around “support our troops.” I would however, humbly submit that in the soundbyte battle, we are getting our asses kicked everytime anyone calls Iraq a “war.” It’s an “occupation” and that’s all it’s ever been. IMHO, the more we hammer on the word “occupation,” everything else falls into place.
Finally On Topic
When Shrub vetos the bill can we please be ready to frame this properly.
The one and only point to make is this
TODAY THE PRESIDENT VETOED A BILL THAT FULLY FUNDED OUR TROOPS. CONGRESS SUPPORTS THE TROOPS AND PROVED WITH FULL FUNDING. WHY DOESN’T THE PRESIDENT SUPPORT OUT TROOPS?
Quzi @ 124
Come back and give some feedback after you’ve read it, if you would, please. Thanks.
Yes, they are appointed by the president but they can’t be fired for prosecuting too many Republicans or too few democrats, and they can’t be appointed to dig up dirt on democratic presidential candidates.
Scarecrow @ 125
Exactly! Also, the President can hire or fire for any reason or no reason, but that does not mean he can commit obstrution of jsutice by doing so.
Shortr version
Any reason or no reason, except a corrupt reason
looseheadprop @ 120
Thanks, lhp, I’ll get with the ePM crew and see if we can come up with something.
This is the challenging part; these guys left footprints so big that the average American with a laptop from BestBuy can easily catch a glimpse of them.
But we still have to draw pictures to show the crime.
And in this case, we’re talking about the network of the U.S. Government having been compromised and used for multiple massive rackets — including the displacement of U.S. Attorneys.
John Casper @ 126
Exactly.
see the Palestinians, the Afghans and the Iraqis living under brutal and nefarious occupation and ask yourself “WHY?”
“not politically feasible”?
This turns my stomach.
I thought you are in CA, Jane Hamsher; if so, you are up awfully early!
This is but a wee victory, a blip. We have a Congress used not just to the last 30 or 40 years of bribery, I mean lobbyists’ presents for the Campaign Funds, but who work under a craking set of 1780 rules when such behavior was acceptable.
We need to continue to remind our New Best Congress That Money Can Buy, that Iraq and Iran have to OVER, and at the same time they might like to do some really heavy lifting to to see`what amending might be necessary to procedures or even the Constitution to prevent such an Administration as this one from happening again, led by either side.
One of esteemed posters wrote about changing the majorities from simple to proportional for the approval of judges; that’s the sort of thing I mean.
Limiting expenditure on elections would stop the largest givers from controlling our lives. Reducing the number of appointees an incoming Administration might make could be examined.
Of course, converting to actual and genuine democracy from plutocracy and becoming a parliamentary democracy like other developed countries would be truly amazing.
Good bye Lieberman, I hope. Bring it on, Henry. While it is pretty daunting for Mr Waxman, he must be running about like a chook with its head cut off, or child in the candy store, with so many juicy and obvious targets.
The sheer weight of investigation and corruption revealed, at the same time holding our Congress’s collective feet to the fire, on all the issues, domestic and foreign, just might cause the Pathetic Child to quit. Oh frabjous day!
eCAHNomics @
88
Exactly! Let’s hope it doesn’t all get swept under the carpet. The next President should be able to look over any document he likes without Cheney being able to say anything. He’ll probably just want to “move on”, but I hope it doesn’t.
just getting back from a re boot @#%@!!
re Specter co sponsoring restoring Habeus Corpus
is this just his usual weasling or have Patrick and Chuckie made him their bitch ?!?!?
OT but:
After reading the $140K question thread, I started looking into the anthrax vaccine that was developed subsequent to the anthrax “attacks”. Interestingly, the company that got the contract (for $800 million)to forcibly innoculate the troops, which has just been renewed, is owned by Emergent Biosolutions. On the Board of Directors is non-other than Joe Allbaugh (the heckava job Brownie Allbaugh). Wonder how they got that contract?
http://investors.emergentbioso…..rgentboard
S.O.S. from MA @ 93
I think this is a really important point. Possibly as a result of the “polarized country” we keep hearing about (which was deliberately created by wingnut strategists from Gingrich down to Rove), we tend to think of party identification as being strong, but it’s not. So while it’s true that Republicans generally support Bush, it’s not because good Republicans want to support him, it’s because they’ve so enforced conformity that to call yourself a Republican, you must support Bush. In Congress, that may get them the votes, but in the electorate, it’s reducing them to only the twenty-nine percenters.
This is huge.
When is Iran going to be taken “off the table” by Nancy Pelosi?
Webb said it.
Professor Foland @
89
Prof,
Your observation about ‘08 is precisely why he will not switch.
The Kos diary is helpful. However the 2001 situation is not precedent for 2007. First, the GOP strongly feared they might lose the majority so they built SAFEGUARDS into the organizing resolution to preserve their minority staffing ratios should Democrats take control (resolution dealt in large part w/committee budgets and preserving GOP staff if majority switched). That part of the insided baseball history is missing.
Also, the Dems were able to extract concessions as well since they were willing to surrender control on 3 January before the GOP actually obtained control three weeks later thus saving the Senate from switching chairmanships after only three weeks. The Democrats could have held up control for three weeks but they did not.
At the time, some Dems did not like the organizing resolution because the figured if they gained the majority, they wanted to dictate terms when the switch occurred rather than make “concensions” up front such as guaranteeing the GOP a 50-50 ratio on committees. On the other hand, this benefited the Dems if the majority did not switch.
The organizing resolution in 2001 thus gave assurances to both sides up front rather than leave it to the time when as switch potentially occurred.
None of us should read meaning into words unwritten in the 2007 organizing resolution.
slainte,
cl
S.O.S. from MA @
93
Well your mileage certainly varies from mine :) It appears to me, though, that the part of your post that I quoted contains a contradiction which if eliminated might cause a change in national course.
If “everyone thinks this” then it follows that the “Repug half of the country” is not really a half, but a shrinking minority. Which, mercifully, seems actually to be the case — the (R) party identification, as shown by a previous FDL thread, is in fact way smaller than the (D) identification. And it will necessarily shrink going forward, with all the scandals now breaking over their dimwitted heads. To paraphrase the Giant in The Princess Bride, “I don’t think that 29-percent still means what you think it means…”
So what will happen when it becomes HUGELY apparent that W has screwed us? So apparent that the political affiliation of the MSM (whatever it is) becomes irrelevant to the enormity of the crimes committed against us by our opwn Administration?
I said what I think will happen; and it’s OK for your mileage to vary, of course… :)
I agree that there probably was never a Repug half of the country and that they are a shrinking majority. But I think that those who have shrunk away are still Dem-haters. These are the people who screamed at the French, who think that 9/11 was done by Sadaam, etc. They would still rather have a Repug as President. They’re just not as keen on this one anymore. And I’ll bet Bush would still win against Kerry.
in addition to waxman’s oversight hearing on GSA misconduct (on c-span3)…
senate is in session (on c-span2) to debate iraq occupation supplemental funding bill and at least 2 amendments i think the cloture vote will be at 11:45am?
in any event, they’re are going to try and get this bill through the senate today, into conference tomorrow and a vote on the conference report as soon as they return from their break.
Waxman GSA hearings now starting on C-SPAN3.
angie,
can you elaborate on Webb vis a vis Iran a little?
tried to do some googling on it last night with no luck
cbl @ 144
yep, can do:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..44397.html
cbl @ 143
it’s on webb’s front page right now. angie will probably have more…
thanks angie! : )
selise @ 115
Hopefully the Democrats will realize that they following public opinion, not leading it – by a long shot! This will be incentive to keep the strongest language possible in the bill. The longer this process goes, the more it reinforces the President’s unpopularity and the popularity of congressional action to end the war.
slainte,
cl
selise – thanks ! wasn’t up last night
Rayne,
I am a bit confused as to what is supposed to be the problem here,
other than my general sense that the contractor is untrustworthy.
The reuse of an image file in no technical way compromises the network.
There *should* be aq code and network audit to make certain that nothing else did.
These things are relativly easily done.
But my ‘technical’ assessment of the diplicate gif file is that it is a straw man, more effective at distracting from the use of outside email accounts.
That is unless the Ohio GOP as a client wanted to acccuse GovTech of misappropriating work the Ohio GOP paid for.
contact me at davidmack (at) gmail (dot) com
if you want to discuss in more detail
Rayne @ 131
Caoimhin Laochdha @ 98
You got anything to back this up, other than just saying it’s so? I look at the organizing resolution for the 107th Congress, which specifically allows a shift, and the ones for the 110th, which don’t. And the historical examples where control did not shift with a change in the majority. The organizing resolution is for the 110th Congress, not for “until the composition shifts.”
Why would they have needed specific language in the 107th resolution if it happens automatically?
I’ll happily admit I’m wrong if there’s history or documentation to back this up, but I haven’t seen any.
More re: anthrax vaccine – Emergent Biosolutions.
In addition to Joe Allbaugh on the Board is Ronald B. Richard. Guess what he was doing at the time of the anthrax attacks…
“Mr. Richard served as chief operating officer of In-Q-Tel, a venture capital fund that provides technologies to the Central Intelligence Agency, from March 2001 to August 2002.”
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Talking Points Memo has a link to a new story regarding Monica Goodling.
http://www.kobtv.com/index.cfm…..TOPSTORIES
AP) – Attorney General Alberto Gonzales’ liaison with the White House will refuse to answer questions at upcoming Senate hearings about the firings of eight US attorneys.
An attorney for Monica Goodling says she will cite her Fifth Amendment protection against self-incrimination.
Goodling was involved in an April Sixth, 2006, phone call between the Justice Department and New Mexico Republican Senator Pete Domenici.
Domenici had complained to the Bush administration and the president about David Iglesias, then the US attorney in Albuquerque.
Domenici wanted Iglesias to push more aggressively on a corruption probe against Democrats before the 2006 elections.
Iglesias told Congress earlier this month that he rejected what he believed to be pressure from Domenici to rush indictments that would have hurt Democrats in the November elections.
CL–
I think we’re in agreement that this is not the 2001 Congress. Unlike 2001, nothing will happen automatically upon Lieberman’s switch.
(Even more inside baseball, I’ve read their real fear in 2001 was that Thurmond would die on them leaving them in the minority.)
Where I’m not so sure I agree with you is the following: suppose Lieberman switches. How does the new organizing resolution get to the floor?
cbl — re Webb
He said it in the debate last night: beautiful!
Caoimhin Laochdha – we crossed in comments. Your points about the 2001 resolution being for clarity are plausible, but considering the historical precedents to the contrary, I’m not convinced. Unless there’s a rule that makes a new organizing resolution “special” like the one at the beginning of a Congress, the Dems can just filibuster it.
I can certainly believe that the desire to avoid that spectacle would give Lieberman some leverage, however.
scarecrow: Thank you for yet another excellent analysis of Dem strategy with which I wholeheartedly agree. You’re keeping my hope alive!
Also encouraging are the rumblings about Congressional Republicans feeling more and more alienated by the WH, which does not bode well for the limitless, unconditional support Bush has relied on from his fellow Repubs.
Lastly, as you noted in your last paragraph, those Repub 2008 candidates must surely be ruminating on the merits of continuing to support an increasingly unpopular war.
I really wonder if Hagel may be considering a 2008 run, but only after the “war waters” have been thoroughly tested.
this is the best hack ever (the story on how mccain became an apparent supporter of gay marriage), via american street.
Waxman is back to work. Watch or listen to it on CSPAN 3 here.
Neil @ 158
watching now… tom davis is almost done, so it will be safe for all to watch…
“Thank you very much Chairman [Sen. Tom] Davis, we’ll let the facts speak for themselves.”
Rep. Henry Waxmen
New Christy thread.
George Bush: the iWrong President
tommy yum @ 13
Ha! Did someone mention short-ride Joe and hospitals?
Speaking of which, I’d really like to get the press in CT to cover HoJoe’s “oversight” for the Dept of Heimat Sekurity, and gulags for children of immigrants. Child abuse is a topic that tends to set complacent suburbanites in CT on fire.
RealWorld @
7
You may already have this, but here is the article from TPM in January.
Christy has a new thread.
“sacred oversight” responsibility of Congress
“it doesn’t matter if we have a republican or democrat administrations.”
Chuckie Grassley.
Good Morning Scarecrow, and Dawgs!
As soon as the vote was in & announced more than once so I was sure, dinner was put on hold yestidie while the cook fired off a thankyou to Ben Nelson & Chuck Hagel. ;->
fwiw, it was almost impossible to access the Senate webpage right then – vewwy vewwy bizzy. hmmmm.
I would have sent something appropriate to senator “progress-snatch”, but ‘fraid it was either gonna burn up the toobz, or ruin dinner. He’ll get it (!), but proper wordage wasn’t at my fingertips just right then.
I’m betting even the pugs have no respect for liarman’s smarm – they’re gonna use ‘im & toss, like a filthy -um-
tissuespare square (a la Seinfeld’s Elaine).Thanks for another great post Scarecrow. Now back to read comments.
So far, I agree with those who peg jr. as putting hisownself in an impossible position right now. (especially since our local grocery-store cashier said so recently, heh ;->). I’m looking fwd to dawgi-analyses on that one. It warmed my heart to hear shooter had to pick up hissun marbles & run over to lurk in the Senate chamber environs, all fer naught. YEEHAW & HAH! that shood hep the bludpresher…
Adie @ 167
Let’s not get to effusive in praise of Nelson or Hagel. Something tells me they are both one carrot-stick-at-a-time congresscritters.
Hearing on GSA Misconduct Hearing
Davis’ opening statement was hard to listen to. I don’t know much about this case so while Davis was piling up claim after claim about how unfair this investigation has been and how unreasonable the conclusions will be, that its a witch hunt and how good public servants are being victimized. Ugh.
Sen. Chuck Grassley is making an opening statement. He’s [visiting the house hearing to make a statement regarding his findings. Grassley’s been involved in GSA issues in the Senate. He investigated and he’s not happy with what he found. He’s specific.
Hey Tom Davis, where’s the waaaaahhhhhmbulance?
looseheadprop @ 130
Not only can he do it, but he has done it. Of course, his officially stated reasons didn’t involve the obstruction of justice.
But, every day more evidence accumulates that he and his subordinates did have obstruction of justice on their minds. It’s not so much what happened in any one case as the overall pattern that is damning. And the most damning thing is the behavior of those who weren’t fired.
Professor Foland @
154
Prof,
Re: Thurmond, I agree. As I said, above:
Also agree as I said above that nothing happens “automatically” In fact, in 2001, the Dems still needed to caucus to pick their chairs. They could not do that at the beginning of the session because they did not know who would elect to take which committee.
I used, above, the example of Sen. Harkin who is not the Senior dem on Agriculture but is Chair nonetheless while Biden, who could be chair of judiciary due to his seniority, picked foreign relations instead. Some details were worked out in advance and the GOP preserved certain rights of staffing/funding should the majority switch, which they feared due to Thurmond and Governor Easley – not Jim Jeffords.
They way it gets to the floor (Short version/there is a lot more) is the same way it did this year. McConnell and Reid and their leadership teams negotiate the details (funding, committee ratios etc) and the Senate adopts it. The parties then caucus and assign their chairs/ranking members.
Theoretically could an organizing resolution be held up/filibustered? Anything is possible although in 200 years I’m not aware that it ever happened or could happen. Neither party in the Senate expects it to happen either since it never has. If there were truly a way to preserve the status quo w/Lieberman, no one – ESPECIALLY Lieberman would be floating this
ideathreat.By the same token, if the parties wanted to play that game, every time there are only two or three Democrats on the floor of the Senate, 20 Republicans could come down and call a quick vote to rescind the current organizing resolution and put in a new one. That is just unrealistic and it just won’t happen.
This is a great distraction and generally off topic. The more we discuss it, the more Lieberman’s ego is fed in my opinion. However, I’ve seen so much confusion on this, and a lot of the assumptions about how this works just don’t play out.
Bottom line: Let’s keep everyond healthy!
Happy to discuss this more.
caoimhin_laochdha AT
verizon.net
slainte,
cl
Mack @ 150
I’ll reiterate one of my points from the DKos post:
The .gif is a “shiny object” that can be distracting, but it’s also an obvious example of a breach. There was no separation between development of U.S. Government contracted products and state products provided by a known Republican operative-contractor.
We also know from the USDOJ document dump that there was no separation between the U.S. Government email and the RNC email provided by the same known Republican operative-contractor on the same network/servers as the .gif.
This should be an invitation to an immediate lockdown of all access to the U.S. Government network and a thorough audit of the contractor.
Period.
Note that in the DKos thread a CISSP commented that he said this scared the hell out of him. The two Fortune 100 companies for which I’ve worked in IT would never have tolerated this between divisions under one corporation, let alone across different corporations.
mui @ 168
effusive? MOI??? heh heh, your concern is appreciated, but…
doncha worry. i wuz just ticklin’ their noses.
i luvs havin’ wobbly & pug congresscritters confoozed & confuddled just enuf to hep the Dems keep their edge.
please to feel rest-assured. they didn’ even get more than a tantalizing whiff ‘a that carrot. ;->
John Casper @ 126
Agreed, but the point that this has always been an occupation is never going to fly in the general discourse. We invaded Iraq, even if it was based upon lies, and that’s an act of war.
It’s a better talking point, I think, to say that this has been an occupation, not a war, ever since Bush declared ‘Mission Accomplished’.
Rayne @ 128
Rayne,
I will be happy to share feedback. I have a busy morning @ work, so I may not get to it until this afternoon.
Rayne,
Please contact me via the email above and I can explain much better.
While I have no letters following my name, I have some extensive experience and interrest in this area.
CL–
my apologies for missing that you had mentioned Thurmond. I am properly humiliated :)
Actually, it’s not really off topic (thought it is EPU’d)–the votes in the Senate are close enough, and Reid mentions it enough, and it comes up enough, that I think it’s worth clarifying this as much as possible here rather than email.
I spoke to a staffer in Senator Kennedy’s Boston office. He said that if Senator X switches party:
(a) Nothing happens
(b) The Republican’s won’t want to walk into a floor fight over the organizing resolutions having just gotten their heads handed to them in November
(c) The Dems won’t let it get to the floor even if the Republicans are too stupid to recognize (b)
(d) The Republicans know (c) reinforcing point (b)
Point (c) in particular means that Democrats truly control what happens. It is possible they would cede control, but if they do so, it would be by choice. So I’m not sure I agree that they are entitled to the chairs, but they are procedurally capable of holding onto them.
As for trying to take advantage of sickness/death of Senators, he was of the opinion the Republicans would not be so stupid as to combine consideration (b) with looking like vultures. Which, again, runs into points (c) and (d).
I did ask if my Senator had ever considered threatening to bolt in order to increase his own leverage. The staffer laughed…
nb that in the 83rd Congress, due to a rash of Senator deaths, the initial majority party ended up in the minority by 2 seats at one point, yet the organizing resolutions were never revisited. In fact, irony of ironies, Thurmond was elected to the Senate in the special election to replace a Senator who had died during that session!
JGabriel at 7:45 am
IMHO soundbyte wars are for low information voters, the kind that voted Lieberman4Lieberman into the Senate over Lamont.
Thanks to CL, Prof Foland, Redshift and whomever I missed, for the very erudite discussion of the caucus issues.
Professor Foland @
177
Thanks for that great piece of trivia! “Thurmond was elected to the Senate in the special election to replace a Senator who had died during that session.”
Your conversation is similar to ones I’ve had w/friends who work in the leadership offices. It really gets to the practical realities vs. a mechanical application of a formula, which in inapplicable.
Practical politics control the outcome more than anything and political realities control to the exclusion of whatever language is contained in an organizing resolution.
In 2001, Jeffords did not come to work at 9:00 a.m. and switch at lunchtime. There were several weeks of negotiations regarding a myriad of issues right down to whether his GOP sponsored senate pages would be kept on Democratic sponsored pages after he switched.
Similarly, no Senator will switch until the GOP has decided how to play their hand and the two (switching Senator & GOP) have negotiated the terms of the switch. The practical reality is that Senator X would spend many hours in McConnell’s & Lott’s offices negotiating all types of details. These situations are fluid but they are also handled mostly in advance and completely behind closed doors. This does not play out or get negotiated on the floor of the Senate.
I agree that if an “untimely” befalls any of our caucus, the current political climate plays heavily into the outcome. Once again, however, this has nothing to do with the organizing resolution. It has to do with both parties playing their political hands and negotiating the terms of a switchover or as you point out, whether there is a switchover. The Democrats are in control of the negotiations, but the Senate is at a standstill until a mutually acceptable agreement is reached.
The whole idea of the organizing resolution is a bit of red herring. Every congress has them and they are the law of the land unless there is a switch in majorities at which point everything is in play. Then it is open season and the particular politics/personalities and agendas all come into play.
That is also the real lesson from 2001. Many Senators anticipated a potential switch and they started the negotiations in late Nov.-Dec. 2000 before the session even began. The idea being that the Senate might look different in December 2002 than in January 2001. They were right for the wrong reasons.
slainte,
cl
What’s up with my new Democratic Senator from PA, Casey. The Times reports he voted NO!? I can’t believe that; anyone know why?
I thought we’d get some sanity in our senators after we got rid of Santorum. WTF?
WE need to say that the dems set a date on which we can DECLARE PEACE !