
The BBC has this little tidbit which I'm willing to bet will get zero play on the American evening news this week, being that it's so much more important to talk about Anna Nicole Smith's autopsy:
The British government was advised against publicly criticising a report estimating that 655,000 Iraqis had died due to the war, the BBC has learnt.
Iraqi Health Ministry figures put the toll at less than 10% of the total in the survey, published in the Lancet.
But the Ministry of Defence's chief scientific adviser said the survey's methods were "close to best practice" and the study design was "robust".
Another expert agreed the method was "tried and tested".
[...]
The Lancet medical journal published its peer-reviewed survey last October.
It was conducted by the John Hopkins School of Public Health and compared mortality rates before and after the invasion by surveying 47 randomly chosen areas across 16 provinces in Iraq.
The researchers spoke to nearly 1,850 families, comprising more than 12,800 people.
In nearly 92% of cases family members produced death certificates to support their answers. The survey estimated that 601,000 deaths were the result of violence, mostly gunfire.
[...]
If the Lancet survey is right, then 2.5% of the Iraqi population – an average of more than 500 people a day – have been killed since the start of the war.
The BBC World Service made a Freedom of Information Request on 28 November 2006. The information was released on 14 March 2007.
2.5%.
Dead.
In four years.
That's one out of every forty Iraqis who were alive at the beginning of this monstrosity.
Putting It In Perspective #1: According to Human Rights Watch, Saddam Hussein, as bad as he was, managed to kill at most 290,000 people during his quarter-century in power — less than half of Bush's four-year death total. Saddam would have had to have ruled another twenty-four years to even come close to matching what George W. Bush has 'achieved' in four years. Can you imagine why the Iraqis might not feel so 'grateful' about being invaded? I sure can. [UPDATE: And there's reason to question whether the 290,000 figure cited by Human Rights Watch was inflated, as noted here and here.]
Putting It In Perspective #2: Imagine that in March 2003, the Chinese, with the help of the rest of the world and a few space aliens, had decided that Bush had to go and so started "Operation American Freedom", invading and bombing the crap out of our land and infrastructure, installing a hideously corrupt puppet government, and setting off sectarian wars and an insurgency that would end up killing nearly eight million Americans in the process over four years. Think that even the biggest Bush-haters might long for the pre-invasion days? So it is that even people who disliked Saddam yearn for a return to days when they could live normal, even peaceful lives in cities that weren't bombed-out ruins.
One out of every forty.
Think about it.
And that doesn't count the living who are maimed and wounded, spiritually and physically.
One out of every forty.
Every Iraqi knows at least one person – and more likely five or six or seven – who died in the last four years as a result of this war.
One out of every forty.
And two million people – one out of every thirteen Iraqis – have left Iraq for Jordan, Syria, Turkey, whereever they can go to get away from the hell that used to be their country.
Think about it.



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Hello? Zed?
you know i could have been first. but this post demanded reading.
Two posts in 4 minutes? Oops?
Another example of suppressing bad news.
This blood is on our hands.
the ugly truth is that the u.s. media have gone out of their way to shun the hopkins study/lancet report, even though there is no real debate that its estimates are compiled using the best practices available.
Wow. This is so depressing. And, for some reason, it isn’t surprising… but still, very depressing.
To the Hague!
PS, PW: Great acronym for the hypothetical Chinese takedown of Bush!
O peration
A merican
F reedom
dmg @
2
You’re right. A very sobering report.
I did actually hear about this report over the air, so maybe it will penetrate the fog of infotainment that passes for news in most media.
Bob in HI
dmg @ 5
I remember (when the report was issued) Bush’s tortured pronunciation when he questioned the report’s “methodology.” Since that was the takedown talking point, I knew the methodology must be accurate.
Oh, that is so sickening to read. 500 hundred people per day die because of Bush – I’ll bet he can’t worry his beautiful mind about a statistic like this one.
Both Perspective 1 and 2 are sobering.
Bob Schacht @
8
I remember a few months ago when the study’s authors were interviewed. If anything, the 655,000 figure is very likely on the low side.
Bob Schacht @ 8
ah well. one of these days i’ll get to thank the academy.
meanwhile, i don’t get the media’s evasion on this. really, talk to anyone in a position to actually run a story and they’ll look at you like your tinfoil hat is smoking.
Yup, and as the study’s authors pointed out recently, the official Iraqi estimates were quietly revised sharply UPWARD after the Johns Hopkins study came out. So even though the Iraqi officials publicly won’t admit the JH study is accurate, they’re copping to a lot more deaths than before.
The Lancet report counts “excess deaths” resultig from the war, including deaths from malnutrition or bad water attributable to the war, as well as deaths deliberately caused by any of the belligerents.
This is just a clarification, not a dissent. The report is apparently good, meaning that the Iraqis are not better off because of the war.
TeddySanFran @
7
Heh! Didn’t even realize that! Thanks.
From AP, filed at 1:38 PM ET:
My bold. What’s Mr. Dunce talking about? Yesterday, the Senate passed a bill authorizing funding for the troops in Iraq. Period.
what’s often not mentioned is that, iirc, johns hopkins did an earlier study on the dead in maybe the first year of the war that got blasted on its methodology. so they went BACK and did this second study, a couple years later, employing all the extra practices that the first study had been criticized for not using.
it doesn’t matter. when you don’t want to know something, you don’t want to know.
TeddySanFran @ 9
I remember (when the report was issued) Bush’s tortured pronunciation when he questioned the report’s “methodology.” Since that was the takedown talking point, I knew the methodology must be accurate.
The report’s methodology?
That’s hilarious. Nonsensical, but hilarious just the same.
Well, this report has been out a while, if the Right hasn’t come up with a “they are counting paper cuts” meme yet, they never will.
Biodun @ 16
Dunceboy’s VETO will delay the dough.
Dunceboy: I don’t WANT to hit you, but you MAKE ME do it.
From AP:
What evil? And we’ve already lost moral purpose in the world. Aren’t we in danger now? And the enemy will wait for us to leave to follow us here? Which enemy? Al-Qaeda? The Sunnis? The Shiites?
Which assuredly includes the rest of the country.
Biodun @ 16
He’s talking about the statements he’s been making that he’s going to veto it. Somehow, in his mind, that equates with the Congress won’t fund it. That equates with lots of other statements he’s made, most notably, “Mission Accomplished”.
sadness, fierce rage, powerless,disgust, there are not words to express all I feel..I thank all for letting me and you know we are not sitting alone at our keyboards in hyperspace jousting at windmills..keep on putting those stones in the bucket this ship is going down.
Great I am so proud of my country that under President bush we are now beating Saddam’s record for killing Iraq’s. I wonder whats next for bush? Is he going to make a run at beating the Nazi’s record with the Concentration Camps?
From Froomie:
Shorter Pissy Boy:
I WILL NOT HESITATE TO USE THE LIVES OF MORE AMERICAN SOLDIERS TO GET MY WAY.
.
Kindly please refrain from calculating the human cost of this war. It’s hard enough to explain/defend when it’s unjustifiable. How can we face the world if we admit that it’s also unconscionable, barbaric, criminal, and damnable?
Thank goodness the British like to control their science, too.
I’m guessing a male of middle eastern descent between 8 and 70 years old doesn’t have much of a chance in Iraq.
Biodun @ 16
Dunceboy is still trying to legislate from the Oval Office, or Bully Pulpit, as he apparently still thinks it is. I can’t wait to see the signing statement when he realizes he’s been backed into a corner.
I read something about this recently and they included among the disasters for the Iraqis the unborn children as part of the continuing observation that weighs the significance of the Bush Doctrine . Sort this with poignant personal Gilda Radner observation at the end of her life . Worse
From the same AP report:
707!
Zarqawi will come back from the grave to follow us? McCain’s getting too old…
I am dreaming of The Hague.
things come undone @ 25
Maybe. From the department of In Case You Were Doubting That The Occupation of Iraq is Part of a Crusade comes this from John Warner: “It would be the bugle of retreat,” “It would be echoed and repeated from every minaret through Iraq: the coalition forces have decided to take the first step backward.”
Biodun @ 16
No, they just voted down the amendment that would have stripped out the timeline yesterday. Unless I’ve missed something, they still have a bunch more amendments to vote on (including Webb’s “no Iran without authorization”) before voting on the bill itself, and then it goes to conference with the House bill.
What do these guys think is going to happen? The easter bunny is going to come and spread little plastic eggs full of democracy around Bagdad? If we just wait a little longer…
OT: If you have not checked out the Roots Project beta, or this post from yesterday, please do.
Also, I understand there are some uncashed checks that have been sent to FDL via snail mail. Please be patient. This is one of those delays caused by cancer. Once we have enough real capital to develop a staff, we won’t have these hiccups, hopefully.
Thanks!
The comparison with the U.S.A. reminded me of the article by Juan Cole, If America were Iraq, what would it be like?. Exept that everything in Iraq has become vastly worse since the article was written in 2004.
How dare you even compare President Bush to a bunch of Red Chinese-allied Soylent Green-consuming tentacled eyeballs from Zaltramzagor!
That’s unpatriotic!
the results of that study have been out for months… no one cared when they first came out… at least in our MSM… and no one seems to care now. Disgusting.
I do think, however, that you should have quoted the study just a bit more carefully. The study measured the increase in total mortality rates since the invasion. In other words, the 655,000 person increase in total mortality included deaths caused directly by US forces, deaths from sectarian violence, death from increased incidence of disease caused by the reduced efficiency of sanitation and public health, etc. “Killed because we started the war,” might be more accurate “than killed in the war.” Still disgusting, but precision counts.
I was being snarky. Of course the Senate passed the bill authorizing funding. And of course Bush’s promised veto will delay the funding. But as greenwarrior says @ 23, the dunce is equating his veto with the Senate not passing the bill.
Heckuva job, Bushie!
Gnome de Plume @
32
Me, too.
Pachacutec @
36
And thank you, Pach!
Portent of horror to come.. the green zone is slowly becoming fair game..Jesusmaryandjoseph is there no sanity, left no wise council?
Sorry OT, I am just aghast at the lack of wisdom and if I don’t write my innards tend to explode.
Russia reporting a US military build-up near the Iranian border.
UAE says “No Iran strikes to be launched from out territory”.
Indianews link.
-GSD
The Bush response (most likely silence) would be that these numbers are ridiculous and the BBC is liberal and has an agenda about this war. It drives me crazy that the Repugs think the BBC is liberal because it asked hard questions about this war. The BBC’s politics are European and have nothing to do with Repugs and Dems.
Sunlight @
39
Make them care. Write to the MSM.
Or be your own media and spread the word.
dmg @
17
You are exactly right.
Maddy @ 44
I know the feeling, Maddy. Believe me.
Best talking point:
Cui bono?
Iran – stronger
OBL – Stronger
Pakistan – stronger
USA – weaker
Iraq – weaker
USA Constitution – weaker
Ned in Zurich @ 37
I was thinking about that post the other day. Cole should update it to reflect the situation since then.
I know this is going to go nowhere. But the way the Lancet study was implemented is deeply problematic, and the results are too consequently.
If 50,000 or 100,000 or 150,000 Iraqis have died because of the war, it’s an atrocity of unbelievable proportions.
As though if the war has killed fewer Iraqis in such a relatively short time than Saddam did during his reign – Saddam Hussein! -, that would put things in perspective. No. It’s just atrocious.
Heartbreaking. How are we to make amends for this horror?
And let us not forget: there are many more who survived violence but have been badly, and permanently, injured.
The Bush administration, full of utterly insane megalomaniacs, is proud of itself, for having destroyed a nation, perhaps forever. And their casus belli, the claim under which they dragged us to war, amounts to this: “I don’t like Saddam. He’s a bad guy.” I remain surprised that other countries don’t say, “well, Bush wasn’t really elected in 2000—Gore won the popular vote, after all, and Bush cronies on the Supreme Court put him in office, a clear sign of corruption—and most Americans don’t like what Bush is doing to their country. Plus he has violated the Constitution with the Patriot Act. So let’s invade America, take him out, and set his people free.” That’s basically the policy that led Bush’s White House into Iraq.
This opening from digby cracked me up.
Both digby and the link to emptywheel are worth reading, but I just got a laugh from the imagery. Emptywheel’s at it again, deep in the weeds, and the Republicans are not safe.
Also, there is something curious going on in the Middle East. All the US and UK and Israeli bullying is pushing the Saudis closer to the Iranians.
-GSD
To put in another perspective,
9/11 and the Iraq war have both killed about 3,000 Americans. That’s 1 out of 100,000 Americans for each of those tragedies. For the math challenged among you, that’s 2500 times fewer deaths on a per capita basis than we have inflicted on the Iraqi people. 2500 times more mayhem. No wonder they want us gone.
mvs @
28
They didn’t in Falluja – after the four Blackwater mercenaries were hideously murdered there, the US military set up a cordon intended to keep all “military age” males in the city.
The US military turned Fllujah into a free-fire zone, with sniper attacks, artillery, and weapons all targeted on the remaining population. The US military occupied the Falluja hospital and acknowledged their motivation was to prevent casualties from being reported.
US military snipers killed civilians in ambulances in Falluja.
Nope, males in Iraq don’t stand much of a chance.
Official US military policy is to use civilians as targets for mass reprisals in response to insurgents’ military attacks upon the US military occupiers.
Violent reprisals against civilians were cause for execution of German and Japanese military brass and senior leaders in the post-WWII war crimes trials.
I look forward to the day the US military war criminals responsible for reprisals against the civilian population of Falluja are looking around the dock in the the Hague (or Germany, or Belgium, or…) wondering how they ever got there.
Just like the CIA’s ex-station chief in Italy.
He also thought he was immune from international law.
And today he is on the run.
Winds are changing.
Thanks for a great post, Phoenix Woman
The numbers are shameful – horrible and shameful. But just imagine if the “offical” death toll of 65,000 were correct. Based upon the figures given in the post, that’s STILL more than one and a half times the rate of casualties under Saddam (by extrapolating the years involved). Are we to understand that they are bragging? Pitiful.
-MS
From the BBC (Auntie or the Beeb):
No comment necessary.
Jeff @ 52
Whenever I’ve had this argument (online) with Repubs, they first claim that the numbers are overblown and then they SCREAM that Sadaam killed more, so that makes it OK. That’s the Repubs all over. It wasn’t OK when Sadaam did it, so why is OK when we do it? And while I’m at it, if it wasn’t OK if Bill Clinton did it, why is it OK when Bush did it? It’s just their way of making facts seem like partisanship. Scientists don’t know anything. Statistics are meant to be misinterpretted. MSM is a bunch of Liberal b.s. The facts just can’t get through that.
Just a hint of the violence, in this story about how the police in Tal Far, who have been the targets in recent killings, went on a rampage and killed dozens of Sunni men/boys in retaliation. This was the city where Petraeus’s strategy “succeeded.”
Dozens killed in reprisal attacks.
When is bush going to realize that after years of lying about WMD, Saddam-Al Queida links, Yellowcake, promising to fire the guys who outed Valerie, ignoring Scott Foley picking up congressional paiges that bush and the GOP have NO CREDITABILTY left! The situation is so bad that bush is actually hurting his cause by PERSONALLY supporting it (when is Rove going to break it to him). bush thinks that the Dems have gone to far and like a gambler who thinks he’s due bush is betting heavy and refusing to negotiate with congress. bush thinks that he can flip his poll numbers by taking a strong stand against the Dems over the war issue. Thankfuly bush’s record of accomplishment is as bad as his integrity. Even the people who support the president’s views don’t think that he, bush is the man with any plan to win the war! bush himself lying and incompetent is the issue now!
Pachacutec @
36
Keep us inline Pach with an occasional nudge. Will send money as I am able as will others, this is money well spent.
[Modnote: if you are going to use bold, please be careful to close it, thanks]
GSD @
45
Great article, GSD, especially contrasted with US cableheads’ shouts about “Iran provoking a war” (Scarborough, et al.)
Mack @ 50
Royal House of Saud: richer and stronger
Sorry Mod, something malfunctioned..my brain
Thank you Phoenix Woman for this important and gruesome reminder. I am always struck dumb by friends who refuse to look at the figures, much less the pictures of what we have wrought– the wounded, the dead, the grieving survivors.
It’s bad enough that we cannot see the flag-draped coffins.
But we really have no idea of the horror– 9/11 happens every day over “there”.
the numbers in pictures from Reed College Memorial;
“3,000 red flags represent the 3,055 American soldiers who have died in the war in Iraq.
“655,000 Iraqis have died. Each of the 120,000 white flags represent 6 Iraqi soldiers and civilians who have died in the War in Iraq”
link
She denied him budget items for him to conduct a more thorough investigation!!!
OBSTRUCTION!
clem @
27
To give it more perspective, if we were to lose the same percentage of people, the total would be 7.5 MILLION people.
problems for bush are shifting from minor to major: saudis pull back support of iraq war
When this study came out the results were discounted (as was the one from 2 years before by the same authors) as way too high. The methods are state of the art and should provide better estimates than just visiting the morgue which misses deaths not in the morgue.
The potential biases in this report would seem to result in an undercount of deaths rather than an overcount. An example, if a household had enough deaths so as to be unable to maintain its structure or if everyone was killed, those would not be counted.
One of the biggest results of this whatever the totals is the worsening (comparisons are to pre-invasion). From Table 4 Burnham 2006:
3/03-4/04-risk of death 1.5 (50% more likely to die), 5/04-5/05-risk of death 2.2 (over 2X as likely to die), and 6/05-6/06 – risk of death 3.6 (almost 4X as likely to die). This is easier to follow in a table, sorry.
The results of the later paper (Burnham 2006) confirmed the results from the earlier paper with similar methodology (Roberts 2004).
Other criticisms made included the pre-war mortality rate of 5.5 per 1,000 (US is 8.3 per 1,000). This is attributable to our older population distribution and is not unexpected.
This is an important and compelling paper. I have seen no credible attacks on its methods.
My only disagreement is when the USA gets blamed for ALL the casualties, no matter what the number might be. (on #’s, I suspect the Brits are closer to the actual tally)
I firmly oppose this war, built upon lies as pretext. But I don’t blame USA for ALL the killings. Even a quick read of many above comments shows killings being done by one Iraqi group against another. There’s a lot of anger bottled up in the Iraqi people, and the anger spews forth in the many bombings/killings as listed above.
I strongly suspect that even if we pulled out immediately, the killings over there would continue unabated. As I said, there’s just alot of anger bottled up over there…but I respectfully disagree that USA is all to blame.
Ghostman
Mr. Dunce: Aren’t A, B, and C reasonable enough for US troops after redeployment?
Dru @ 68
There’s also zero royal flags representing the number of Bush family members who have served or will serve.
Bush made his tough talk comments in a speech before the National Cattlemen’s Beef Association, didn’t he?
man, they have no sense of irony over at the white house, do they?
The history of the supplemental has been interesting. Republicans pooh-poohed it in the House saying that Pelosi couldn’t even get her own party to support it. Then it passed with its timetables intact. 198 House Republicans voted to defund the troops. The media said nothing. Bush came out with his veto threat, promising to defund the troops. Even though this is a must pass piece of legislation, the media response was again silence. Republicans hoped to strike timetables from the Senate version. After all, they had Independent for self Joe Lieberman and the WTF is he thinking nutcase Pryor as well as other conservative Democrats to count on. But it didn’t work out for them. 46 Republican Senators voted to defund the troops. Bush again promised to veto and the media remained silent.
Isn’t it about time the media began to ask why do Republicans hate our troops? Throwing temper tantrums and using our troops as a political football when they lose votes fair and square is not, I repeat not, supporting the troops. If Democrats played such games, the media would crucify them. Since it’s Republicans the silence is deafening.
McCaffrey assessment in WaPo:
I disagree with you Ghostman @ 72 (welcome back, btw).
We invaded and engineered/fostered the sectarian/civil war.
It’s all the fault of the “coalition of the willing” … i.e. our fault.
All of it.
Biodun #73,
It’s a quibble but the clock for redeployment starts on October 1. 180 days from October 1 (and taking into account that 2008 is a leap year) is March 29, 2008. This is a case of where someone cited March 31 and everyone piled on, but the legislation does not cite a March date at all.
dmg @ 75
Imagine the applause W got when he talked about all the PORK in this appropriations bill!
TeddySanFran @ 80
Or when he said he was big on bull.
We’re on our way outof Iraq!
Hey, Ghostman, welcome back. I respectfully disagree with you. Like it or not, Sadam Hussein, as did Marshall Tito, held the country’s gyre pretty tightly. We loosed a blood-dimmed tide when we invaded. It falls to us to claim those deaths that occur during our reign, Iraqi-on-Iraqi or not.
Hugh @ 79:
Senate: March 31, 2008–>120 days?
House: March 1, 2008–>180 days?
Assuming a US population of 250 million, that’s proportional to killing about six million Americans.
How would we feel if six million of our people were killed?
anybody got a link to the video of Pelosi’s statement today? The one where she told Bush to rachet down the threats?
Jon Stewart on Iraq Funding and Timetable Legislation
curiousgeorge @ 85
The Bush family seems incapable of even having feelings about that. For them, it’s like having feeling about livestock.
Phoenix Woman, thank you for this post.
We will bear this shame forever. There is nothing we can do to make it not be true: all those people are dead and all those lives are ruined and all that ill will is real.
We can blame it on George W. Bush, but when we do we lie like he does. This is America. He was the prime mover, but We The People are the ultimate authority, the ultimate deciders.
Until we impeach this president, we are the ultimate endorsers of his crimes. Until Congress impeaches this president, the blood is on all their hands. And I believe we will impeach this president, if only to try to wash the blood off and for some to pretend it was never there.
Maddy @ 63
I think we may put up one of those thermometers, the way we did for Marcy’s book.
randiego @ 86
“Calm down, take a deep breath”
Don’t know if anyone has posted this yet:
New story up on the NY Times website about the Arab League summit:
“The king of Saudi Arabia, King Abdullah, condemned the presence of American forces in Iraq as an “illegitimate foreign occupation” in a speech today….”
The Saudis had sent a “thanks, but we’re not available on April 17th” response to a C Augustus (the term that Charles Pierce uses for the Deciderer) invitation to a state dinner next month. And King Abdullah of Jordan has turned down an invitation, too, for September 2007. Hmmmm. Wasn’t Bush supposed to have many personal contacts through his dad?
things come undone @
25
Actually, this idiot is probably going to try to be the 2nd president in history to drop a nuc in an armed conflict. He thinks history will exonerate him, a la Truman.
curiousgeorge @ 85
Well, the deaths of 3000 on 9/11 “justified” the above and much more according to the vast majority of the people and our Congress…
We missed the biggest opportunity ever offered to us in the wake of that tragedy…
njprogressive @ 92
Teddy at 91: many thanks.
The US government against itself in the War on Terror:
randiego @ 96
The lady knows how to talk to obstreperous children, that’s for sure.
Fourth time over the past six months I will have posted this here:
USAF claims of Iraqi deaths in Gulf War 1991 – 250,000
UN claims of premature Iraqi deaths due to destruction of civilian infrastructure (water sanitation/supply, electrical grid, food and medicine distribution) during CLINTON adminitration – 500,000
Lancet Study of Iraqi violent deaths 2003-2006 – 605,000
Additional Iraqi mortality 2002-2007 over pre-Gulf War I levels – 500,000
Iraqi injured 1991-2007 – over 1,000,000
Iraqi internal refugees now – 1,500,000
Displaced Iraqis outside the border – 1,500,000
Total Iraqi casualties and refugees by US actions – 5,855,000
WAIT…WAIT! If we say the the US population is around 290,000,000…2.5% of that population would be 7,250,000 killed. If we say that would happen over 4 years (4*365 days = 1,460 days). So, 7,250,000 americans divided by 1,460 days = 4,966 killed a day…almost twice as much as the 911 tragedy…every day for 4 years…anybody else think our country is completely insane?
cliff
Michael in Park Slope @
58
Oh, exactly. Even under the “official” (and wildly and deliberately understated) tolls, Bush is responsible for a higher daily/weekly/monthly/yearly rate than Saddam.
One out of forty DEAD! This leaves one to speculate that at least five to eight times as many have suffered injuries, the majority of which have destroyed their normal lives. That’s about 3 to almost 5 million. Add to that number those people who are relatives or friends of those who were killed or maimed (I would guess that is at least 4 to 5 times greater) and one can conjecture as to why there are a constant source of suicide bombers or those willing to join the insurgents against the coalition forces.
just the imagery of him talking about the war, where the bodies of soldiers and civilians alike are horribly mutilated; where the very country feels like a slaughterhouse — and being cheered on by these other folks whose business is slaughter…well, it is something boschlike or a scene ralph steadman might sketch…
No offense meant to Phoenix Woman, (one of my favorite bloggers), but her very important post would have been better attended if posted after the hearing…
Her subject matter was so valuable, too, but in the heat of an event like the one we just witnessed, it is hard to move over to such a spiritual matter, when immersed in the lower realms.
Great post, though, and worth a lot of consideration.
Now things may pick up here…
Stephennnn @ 102
And, as Siun’s Sunday postlinks revealed, how women with all their family killed are recruited as suiciders
Ed*ard Teller @ 99
Yup, yup and yup. Granted, Saddam could have funneled some of the billions he was spending on fortified palaces towards funding infrastructure, but still.
Riverbend hasn’t posted since February 20th. I hope she’s okay.
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/
JEP @ 104
I think CHS addressed this in a previous thread, that this was a regularly scheduled post. Nobody knew that we would need extra popcorn for the GSA hearing… there’s a lot going on now!
About those 290,000 Hussein dead?
The Mail on Sunday (print)
John Laughland
Reprinted here..
Has Blair Sexed up Saddam’s Atrocities, too?
[snip]
Nor is it an official Red Cross figure. The International Committee of the Red Cross is the body which is responsible in international law for establishing the names of people missing in conflict. It is not the role of a private, unaccountable organisation like Human Rights Watch. While Red Cross officials in Geneva say they might privately accept it as a working basis for evaluating the scale of their task, they absolutely refuse to give the figure their official support. “We would not say that there are 300,000 people missing in Iraq,” Antonella Notari, a spokesman, told me.
[snip]
Their report speaks of an estimated 290,000 missing, “many of whom are believed to have been killed”. In other words, their deaths have not been established, and some or all of them may still be alive.
[snip]
Human Rights Watch currently has two staff in Iraq. This compares with about 800 Red Cross staff, and a substantial United Nations presence. The International Committee of the Red Cross has had people in Iraq ever since 1980 , and the United Nations has had a huge operation there since the end of the Gulf War in 1991. By contrast, Human Rights Watch has had its few staff in the main part of Iraq only for the last few weeks.
[snip]
The methods used by Human Rights Watch to calculate these numbers are questionable. They do not have anything like complete lists of the names of people missing. Nor do they even seem to know how many names are on the lists they do have.
[snip]
In fact, the Human Rights Watch figures are not even their own figures. Instead, they come from other people. One of their main sources is the Kurds in Northern Iraq.
[snip]
The official from Human Rights Watch alleged to me that “tens of thousands of bodies” had already been exhumed in Iraq. But when I pressed him on this, he had to admit that the figure was, in fact, in the low thousands.
clem @ 27
We have to acknowledge it. To not acknowledge the barbaric actions being conducted in our names implies tacit approval. That, too is unconscionable.
Re:111
I forgot the link: Amercian Forces Information Services
Bob Schacht @
8
It is SO horrible. I never saw it put that way. 1 in 40. Ack!
mc @ 107
i always think the same thing when i see if she’s gotten to blog.
course, she’s got a few more important things on her mind than blogging. electricity. food. staying alive.
like that.
Notice how our press has done it’s damnest to obscure those realities? Or just not pay any significant attention to them.
Notice how our press has kept us in the dark about who’s side were on anymore, or who we’re even fighting, or presenting the factions in any depth? All we hear are vague terms like insurgent, terrorist, etc. Almost no attempt to get at who’s fighting or why.
We’re all paying for this atrocity, and it’s been going on for four years with little end in sight. It’s sickening.
Stephennnn @ 102
Yup. I almost edited the forty-dots graphic to change a few of the yellow dots to green to represent wounded Iraqis, and blue to represent exiled ones. But I thought that this would adversely affect the stark simplicity of the red dot amongst the yellow ones.
This is why I get so furious when Pelosi and colleagues insist that impeachment proceedings would “suck the air” out of Congress. Bush et al, and their Democratic enablers, have sucked the life out of hundreds of thousands of human beings in the last six years. I’m damn freakin’ sorry if impeaching them will inconvenience Congress!
Cliff Butter @
100
The COUNTRY is not insane. The BUSHIES are insane.
Thrasyboulos @ 109
Sigh. (And thanks.) Alas, it’s not at all surprising. I’m editing my post accordingly.
randiego @ 108
Thanks randi, I missed Christy’s explanation on the last thread, hopefully all the regulars realize that while I’m a “loud” pup, I’m still just a pup nonetheless, not quite versed yet in the blogways of the full-fledged Doggies.
My humble apologies (again.)
Georgesimian @
60
This survey has been done TWICE! Try and get it through your thick skull that this isn’t Hannity bloviating, it ain’t O’Lielly lying,it ain’t Condi-lies-a-lot…
It’s the freakin’ Lancet one of, if not the, most esteemed medical journals on the planet.
They are probably very close to the actual number.
If you insist on saying, ‘Oh that can’t be right…’ then I would very much like to hear why you assert that.
If you have no factual basis or coherent argument to make then by all means:
SYFPH!
Phoenix Woman @
106
Saddam invaded Iran after conferring with US back-channel sources linked to the Reagan White House. Saddam invaded Kuwait after conferring with US State Dept. spokesperson April Glaspie, who told him the US was unopposed to the invasion. Before the Iran-Iraq War, the standard of living in Iraq was rising sporadically, but was slowly rising. More than any other outside agent, we created Saddam, and encouraged him until mid-1990, when we surprised him and destroyed the longterm aspirations of the Iraqi people.
ralphbon @ 115
Ralph, with all due respect, she had to say that. impeachment requires criminal acts, and they really didn’t have much at the time. They had to get elected first. The oversight hearings are currently revealing criminal acts. impeachment will come, just as the sun rises each day.
ralphbon: when is the last time Pelosi said “impeachment is off the table” or a similar statement? I don’t recall her saying it recently at all. I think it was something she had to say when she was first elected and first took the gavel. Now, she’s letting investigations do their work – she’s allowing the energy to be focused on possible wrongdoing of this government, and she’s managed to get a bill passed that will put an end to the war.
I think she’s been operating under the assumption that we keep focused on ending the war and investigating the corruption, and if the evidence against Bush & Cheney piles up, impeachment will be a foregone conclusion with massive public support (and more importantly Congressional support) rather than looking like a partisan witch hunt. Playing her cards right, I’d say.
Hugh @ 79
i’m jumping in late here, so i may be all confused… but if you’re refering to the senate bill, i think there is a march 31 date (Byrd Amendment to H.R. 1591, in section 1315 (b)(2))
i think? will post my comment from this morning’s first thread… possibly things have changed since then? or i have it wrong?
Here’s what post 111 was SUPPOSED to look like. :)
From Amercian Forces Information Services, Sept 2002:
Note that in 2002, a Johns Hopkins University estimate of fatalities stemming from a hypothetical smallpox attack are credible and worth citing to support the administration’s position. In 2006, Johns Hopkins University estimates of 655,000 excess Iraqi fatalities resulting from our invasion (published in the peer-reviewed Lancet) were, of course, not credible to this Administration.
How Johns Hopkins University has fallen!
Ed*ard Teller @ 120
exactly.
A.119, I think you and Georgesimian agree. Georgesimian was, I believe, attributing arguments to Repubs and, perhaps, could have used “” to better define their statements.
Cassie @
117
Yea but large parts of the country was behind the bushies. Yes, they were lied to but neither did most Americans really ask and hard questions. Frankly I feel a lot of shame.
Biodun @ 84
The House legislation specifies a series of benchmarks which must be fulfilled by October 1, 2007, the start of the government’s fiscal year. The redeployment must be accomplished within 180 days of October 1. This timeframe includes October 1 and with 2008 being a leap year means by March 29, 2008.
People who talk about “jihadists” and “terrorists” as if they are not human beings are forgetting that every injustice, every brother, mother, child unjustly killed, has a family, and all we are doing by fighting “terrorists” this way is creating more despair, more anger, more hopelessness, so that more people cross the line into violence. AND we’re creating the same on our side by sending young people unprepared into battle without helping them re-enter society when they return. Our GWOT is fueling future terrorism for the next twenty years.
Our nation has always been largely (and stupidly) blind to our actions overseas, but since 9/11, we no longer have the excuse that “we don’t know why they hate us.” And everytime I hear someone say, “if we don’t fight them there, they’ll follow them home” I have quite a few violent impulses of my own.
GWBush’s legacy just keeps giving and giving.
OK @ 114
to be fair, the factions are, if not ever-shifting, spectacularly diverse and hard to diagram. scarecrow had an excellent post on this a couple weeks back.
s/he illustrated the core truth: the mission, if it was ever clear, is now IMPOSSIBLE for the troops to carry out. we don’t have a sense of who we’re supposed to be helping.
and at that moment — when the mission becomes impossible — that’s when the troops should be coming home.
Phoenix Woman
Thank you! This must have been a heart-breaker to research and write. But the information simply has to see the light of day. It’s not being covered enough. Your efforts will help us tremendously in forcing MSM to do so.
(p.s., sorry to be late here. Waxman hearings were riveting!)
This administration HAS to be held to account for its heinous crimes.
from this morning:
it looks to me that the senate version has a gigantic loop hole for bush to use to continue his war/occupation…. but, i would love to hear from the legal experts.
here are the most relevant bits (via marty lederman at balkinization – please see his post for lots more of the bills’ language and links to the bills themselves):
the house bill (H.R. 1591), section 1904 (b)(1)(d):
the senate bill – the Byrd Amendment to H.R. 1591, sections 1315 (b)(2):
[my emphasis above]
analysis from marty:
please read the whole thing… marty lederman has done just what we need – an analysis of the actual bills. thank you marty!
Dru @
68
Yup. Even with counting 1 American as “worth” 6 Iraqis, it’s still a sobering picture.
Paul @ 71 –
Exactly. That’s what the authors of the study have stated. They suspect that the actual total, especially by now (some months after the study’s end) is closer to one million dead.
We’ll never know how many people this war has killed.
And, we’ll never know how many people have turned against America as a result of our occupation of Iraq.
thank you so much for this post PW… for awhile after the war started, i wore a black arm band – in mourning for the victims of our war and as a reminder. i probably should never have stopped.
thanks for the important post. i spend almost all my computer time on iraqi blogs. sometimes it seems like with the focus on what congress it trying to acjieve we loose sight of the excrutiating personal toll this war is taking on the lives of a beautiful diverse society that is constantly degraded in the press here.
my heart goes out to iraqis, several times a day and in my dreams at night.
Adie @
132
Heartbreaker, indeed! Great post, for sure, but an even greater heartbreaker is the fact that Marla Ruzicka, the person who had initiated a mission to discover the true extent of Iraq war casualties, died near Baghdad soon after her project got going. I’m skeptical about the official circumstances of Marla’s death. The second anniversary of her death comes up on April 16th, four days before we go to war against Iran.
selise,
Thanks for the language from the Byrd amendment. WRT the House language, that indicates a redeployment if the October benchmarks are met. That is highly unlikely, so I still think the October 1 start day will apply. It would be nice if the conference committee would reconcile the two dates. My point was just that 180 days from October 1 is not March 31. I want this ironclad and nailed down with no wiggle room for Bush.
TeddySanFran @ 9
Snap! TSF- you got it in a nutshell; the only way to evaluate anything from these people.
I like that phrase, “takedown talking point.”
And yes, in the MSM, when this hit the news, was the usual quote one, then quote the other, without actually mentioning the methodology themselves. OR as you might put it, without doing any reporting themselves.
LandOfTheFree @ 137
Perhaps those who have turned against us will regain respect for us if we are strong enough to end the nightmare of Bush/Cheney and not simply by allowing this Administration to run out the clock.
How will the House and Senate choose their conferees? Will they come from the Appropriations Committees? Need the reconciliation be done in daylight, or can Nancy and Harry have their conferees meet without the GOP?
New thread: emptywheel
Letters to Reggie
I just figured out what Bush means by “victory:” the death of every single Iraqi. Look, it’s hard work, but we have to finish what we started. I mean they started.
Anybody see Olberman suggest last night that Tillman could have been murdered?
Ed*ard Teller @
121
Correct m’self. Never mind. Read it wrong….
one in forty dead (relative to baseline = “under Saddam”)
one in thirteen fled/refugee
countless lives shattered
Truly decimation of the civilian population, in a very literal sense.
…trembling with rage and sadness…
Hugh @ 140
thanks go to marty lederman…
i also don’t expect the benchmarks to actually be met, i was just expecting that bush would certify them w/o regard to the real world.
amen. looks like the action will be in the conference committee, if this language makes it out of the senate floor (as it looks like it will)
Biodun @ 21
biodun: see Teddy San Fran at 9 for the principle of interpreting such statements.
(/snark – as if you don’t know this)
Ed*ard Teller @ 121
We did create Saddam. Unfortunately it was the CIA under Kennedy (McCone I think) who encouraged/supported him and his gang in the failed 1963 attempted coup and gave him refuge with the Egyptian Islamic J*had until the successful coup in 1969(?)
And he was a “great” ally until Rumsfeld went to Baghdad to negotiate a pipeline deal for Bechtel when he got all uppity and told the US to go Cheney themselves
Biodun @ 31
Zarqawi, Zwahari, Zardoz – doncha know it’s just too hard to keep them A-rab names straight…
montag @
147
If you mean the last sentence, I mean Iraq. The Iraqis, like the Lebanese, Israelis, Palestinians, Afghans, etc. – as people – ALL want peace and normally aspire to anything but war.
GSD @ 45
Aw, J—s– scarier and scarier.
Even if Webb gets the no-Iran-attack-without-permission language back in the bill, do we think Shruby & Co will hesitate to violate the law?
Guitar_Playing_Bastard @
70
23 millon refugees
tejanarusa @ 141
My dad taught me that companies advertise to their products’ weaknesses, not strengths. His example:
And Fox’s “fair and balanced.”
Companies don’t spend to advertise the good qualities of their products everyone knows to be true — they advertise to overcome the negative attributes associated with their product. Catapulting the propaganda, if you will.
So, when Bush immediately challenged the “methodology” of the JohnsHopkins study, and TradMed ran with his fact-free characterization, I knew JohnsHopkins’ methods must be right.
Always look in the funhouse mirror to accurately identify the projection.
A. Citizen @ 121
Not sure if your obnoxious argument-free crap was directed at me exactly, but here’s a bit of an argument I borrow from a pal of mine.
The UNDP funded a study (by the Central Organization for Statistics and Information Technology and the Norwegian Fafo Institute of Applied International Studies) that surveyed 21,688 households and estimated 24,000 Iraqi war-related deaths between March 19, 2003 and mid-2004. Now, first, note the larger sample size, plus the fact that the samples were better distributed geographically, a higher number of deaths recorded, and a smaller confidence interval. (This is also military and civilian deaths.) Now, of course, this is for a shorter period of time, and 2006 was, by all accounts, more deadly for Iraqis than previous years. But mark the implications. For the Lancet study to be correct, 15,000 Iraqis must have died everys ingle month during the entire war. And so it’s not an answer to say that things have gotten more violent since 2004 – I agree entirely. You’re likely then to end up with an estimate of an atrocious number of Iraqis dead such as over 100,000.
There also are some weird things about the Lancet study, such as the low estimate of sanctions-era mortality, a two-thirds drop in child mortality since the invasion, and so on. To say nothing of the sheer number of people dead according to the Lancet study of which there was absolutely no notice taken or record made.
If you want a further reading list, let me know.
Malacandra @ 126
…
Rumsfeld cited a Johns Hopkins University study that imagines the introduction of smallpox into three U.S. states.
Note that in 2002, a Johns Hopkins University estimate of fatalities stemming from a hypothetical smallpox attack are credible and worth citing to support the administration’s position. In 2006, Johns Hopkins University estimates of 655,000 excess Iraqi fatalities resulting from our invasion (published in the peer-reviewed Lancet) were, of course, not credible to this Administration.
How Johns Hopkins University has fallen!
Perfect!
[Modnote: please take care to close blockquotes, it affects all following comments, thanks]
By what measure do we judge the success of this war? Past accomplishment a track record that we can look back on, oh right NOTHING HAS CHANGED SINCE THE INVASION troops in Bagdad are still wearing bullet proof vests? Have we found Ossama? WMD? Saddam’s link to Al Quieda?Although to be fair we apparently have brought Al Queida the Muslim FundiMENTAList group to a FORMERLY SECULAR MUSLIM COUNTRY. So Yes we have succeeded in bringing terrorism to Iraq! We have also succeded in letting N Korea and soon Iran get Nukes. We have succeded in driving oil prices through the roof. We have succeded at FAILURE! We have killed thousands more people than Saddam himself killed! We have hurt those we came to help. We have failed so miserably that you have to admit that we never cared about bringing the Iraq’s democracy. For if we had it’s hard to believe that even the Alpha Chimp Decider who never admits to making a mistake, or LEARNING FROM FAILURE could have done a worst job at MAKING IRAQ’S HATE AMERICA/DEMOCRACY. We went to WAR FOR OIL we didn’t care about the Iraq’s. Yet by disregarding the Iraq’s they have disregarded us and thats why were losing! We now face a popular uprising everyone hates us, as well as a civil war, they all hate each other.
Teddy San Fran @ 156-
Wow. (I’m not quoting to save time and prevent zigs)
So this is just another best business practice?
Thinking about what you said, it seems obvious, but I had never really thought about it that way before.
Such naivete–I sorta thought Karl Rove invented the technique.
Apology to mods – oops. That’s why I didn’t quote TSF above – sometimes editing out the extra stuff gets confusing. I’ll be more careful!
dmg @ 5
YUP! There was some msm discussion of the figure when it came out, mostly dismissive. Predictably, Bush claimed it was a bogus number and that deaths were probably more in the tens of thousands or some such nonsense (as if that really matters). We haven’t heard anything about those figures since the Lancet study first came out.
And still, those ungrateful Iraqis just won’t stand up and take responsibility for their own future! The nerve of those people! Why can’t they get just it together?
When using these figures, points to consider include:
* This UN-approved and widely-used counting method compares total death rates from all causes before and after a chosen event (in this case the invasion of Iraq). It includes those killed by coalition action, and by sectarian violence, and by criminal activity, and includes “normal” deaths (but bear in mind that a “normal” death at home or in hospital may be due to the destruction and/or looting of medical equipment, drugs, etc., or by the absence of medical personnel who have fled abroad in large numbers to escape the violence and threat of kidnapping. The 650,000 (by now more like 750,000) figure represents additional deaths in comparison with the death rates experienced under the sanctions-crippled Baathist regime. In other words it is an estimate of the deaths – from all causes – resultant, however indirectly, from the invasion and from subsequent coalition actions such as the disbandment of the Iraqi army and civil service. While we are responsible – these are deaths that would not have occurred had we not invaded Iraq – one should not state that the coalition has killed three quarters of a million Iraqis.
* Most of the two million Iraqi refugees have fled to Syria and Jordan. Both countries are being destabilized by, and are desperate for help with, their refugee crises: roughly one in every fifteen people currently living in Syria is an Iraqi refugee; Jordanians living in their capital Amman are outnumbered three to one by Palestinian, and now Iraqi, refugees. The current total UNHCR budget for the Iraqi refugee crisis amounts to just $7 per displaced Iraqi.
* This year George W Bush has decided to be much more welcoming than he has since 2003: he says he will allow 7,000 Iraqi refugees to enter the US. That’s around one third of one per cent of the total. Tony Blair, meanwhile, has been deporting refugees back to areas of Iraq he considers to be “safe”.
* The two million headline refugee figure grossly understates the problem: almost as many have now been displaced within Iraq.
Wow, it’s a startling revelation. So much for the lame statistics( under 200,000 pushed on the military by the Bush White House. This ONE IN FORTY report should be sent to the House and Senate and READ into the public record. Then let the great Dubya Denier try to refute it. It’s just one more reason to depart that troubled country. But we should stay in Afganistan, and sit on the Pakistan border waiting for Al Qaeda. ( remember them?)
tommy yum @ 146
I saw most of the broadcast but apparently missed that one. Didn’t the WH really pump this thing up for war-selling purposes? I mean, I realize it was the Army’s screw-up, but makes me wonder, ya’ know? Was any pressure applied by the WH on the Army to basically lie for propaganda purposes? Olbermann’s guest said it was solely the Army’s fault, but we have already seen that the WH sticks it’s finger into any damn thing it wants to in order to control the message.
I wrote this back in January:
http://cujo359.blogspot.com/20…..and-0.html
BTW, that was early January. I wasn’t the first one to mention this, either, not by a long shot. Yet I’ll bet that most Americans aren’t even aware of these facts.
I’ll bet they know who’s getting Anna Nicole’s baby, though.
It didn’t penetrate when it first came out. It’s not going to penetrate now. I don’t have any answers, but we’re all busy talking to ourselves.
Jeff @ 157:
The problem with your argument is that you’re assuming that the HRW Saddam stats and the current Iraqi government’s post-invasion death toll numbers are legit and the Johns Hopkins/Lancet study is not. If you will visit the two links I added in my update, you’ll see that there are serious, serious questions about the validity of the HRW numbers, far more than about the JH study.
Please don’t go pointing out microscopic specks in somebody else’s eye whilst ignoring the two-by-four sticking out of your own.
tdhcheri @ 167: The reason this is news again is precisely because the British government has admitted that it cannot be dishonest and attack the study’s methodology the way Bush did and does. And if you really want it to sink in with people, you’re not going to wait for the MSM to catch up — you’re going to send this out to all your friends and relations. Right? Much better to do something than to sit around and be cynical.
So good, it had to be repeated (emphases in bold are mine):
PJB(UK) @ 163
It seems no one has pointed this out, but for the sake of accuracy don’t you think you should include (or at least mention) the death toll of the Iraq-Iran war in your estimate of Saddam Hussein’s carnage?
Don’t forget the million or so – including ~500,000 children – that died during the Clinton years as a result of sanctions. Clinton has as much blood on his hands as Bush does.
Comparing George W. Bush to Saddam Hussein is comparing apples to oranges. Although Bush has certainly blundered in Iraq, the Iraqi casualties are products of WAR. Those lives lost at the hands of Saddam Hussein were very literally at his hands. His orders were directly responsible for the deaths. Bush is not a bloodthirsty killer, he is not maniacal, nor does he want to kill Iraqis. The United States in Operation Iraqi Freedom has far exceeded its responsibility as a nation at war with Iraq already in staying in the country and attempting to assist the Iraqi populace in rebuilding. Attributing all the casualties of war to George Bush is a mistake, especially when comparing the nature of those casualties to those attributed to Saddam Hussein. Never once has Bush said, “Yanno fellas I really don’t like what that family’s doing over there. Get rid of them for me,” as Hussein has done countless times. What the author of this article has done is take what was a real news article and spun it into an emotionally charged issue, the author’s prerogative, but we certainly don’t have to buy into it. The tragic loss of life in Iraq is nothing to make light of, and our current president certainly has many things that he can be harshly criticized for, but to attribute the casualties in Iraq to his hands only serves to fuel undeserved national and international hatred of our government.
Randiego and Landofthefree, re your responses to my rant above: Your optimism is bracing, but in my experience no one ever lost money betting against the emergence of courage in the Democratic leadership.
TDov @
172
It’s the war that has fueled international hatred of our government. It is an illegal war. It was promoted, started and sustained on a pack of lies. Bush invaded Iraq and opened pandora’s box. Hussein held the country together with an iron fist. Bush removed Hussein, decommissioned the Iraqi army, flushed the Bathists from power and the country fell into chaos. 600,000 deaths and more to come, countless more to come. This is a tragedy of epic proportions. Yet, we can all sleep easy cause Bush meant well . . . .
caracara @
171
We can all thank Bush for mercifully ending the Clinton/UN sanctions. OMG if it weren’t for Bush the Iraqis would be suffering horribly from those inhumane sanctions! Thank you Mr. Bush, thank you! No wonder the Iraqis greeted our troops with kisses, candy and flowers . . . .
“And that doesn’t count the living who are maimed and wounded, spiritually and physically.”
That does raise an interesting question. Just how many more Iraqis have been maimed or wounded, relative to the number killed?
The Bush administration has been downplaying the number of Americans maimed or wounded since Bush started hostilities with Iraq in 2003. We must assume that the death count of Americans killed in Iraq is accurate, over 2,000, but who knows with the “creative accounting” of the Bush administration (kind of like Enron) what the wounded/maimed American total is. Guesstimates about the number of Americans wounded, maimed, falling ill or committing suicide in Iraq range anywhere from 25,000 to upwards of 60,000. Who knows?
So, how many Iraqi citizens, since war began, have been maimed, wounded, fallen ill or committed suicide? The figure must be in the millions if the number of Iraqi dead is somewhere near two-thirds of a million.
And then let’s add in the number of Iraqis who’ve either fled from Iraq or been displaced inside Iraq.
I’d guess that a combination of these three totals, the dead, the wounded, and the displaced, would be anywhere from 6 to 9 million Iraqi citizens, marking a pretty sizable chunk of Iraq’s population. But then, no one will ever know the exact amount. Iraq is a big country with a lot of sandy, desolate stretches just perfect for unmarked graves.
Phoenix Woman @ 168
You’re confused and making a totally irrelevant point. My 157 had nothing to do with HRW’s numbers. I had an earlier post making the different point that the comparison with Saddam’s reign, as a moral matter of putting things in perspective, is foolish, since that’s no standard at all, so that it’s not like even if you could show that fewer Iraqis have died as a result of the war than under Saddam, it would be a moral argument that somehow the deaths for which we are largely responsible are okay.
But my comment at 157 had nothing to do with HRW. At most, you touch on one issue I raise, which is the Lancet study’s low estimate of sanctions-era death rates, as a baseline or whatever. But even if you were to throw that out, there remain a number of problems with the Lancet study.
And if you think those are specks, you’re just uninterested in actually learning anything. You can dispute them, but you’re the one who brought up the issue of their method and implementation to begin with, and those turn on what you’re now condescendingly calling specks.
What’s the log in my eye anyway? That it needn’t be 600,000 Iraqis dead to say it’s horrible and atrocious? That 100,000 Iraqi dead as a result of our war is not acceptable? That’s a log in my eye?
Nice argument.
Add up these numbers… There are 3,700 abortions a DAY in the US ( http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html ) and over 16,000 murders a YEAR in the US ( http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04…..urder.html )
Great article – really puts things into perspective. Your last comment was “Think about it.” You could have added “Think about what we, the American people, can do to stop this – NOW!” It is in your hands American people – you could end it today if you had the will. The rest of the world is waiting for the magnanimous heart of the great American people to come back to life – to play its role and stop this madness. If you don’t do it soon, you will never be able to do it! The choice is yours… Have a look at this: http://www.matthewyglesias.com…..daily_show – and forget it’s the Daily Show – listen to Brzezinski.
Phoenix Woman @ 169:
Thank you.
As regards your contretemps with Jeff (see 177) please note my comment: “While we are responsible – these are deaths that would not have occurred had we not invaded Iraq – one should not state that the coalition has killed three quarters of a million Iraqis.”
Setting the UNDP survey against the Johns Hopkins / Lancet survey is something of an apples and pears comparison. The latter attempted to do a before-and-after comparison of death rates; the former was a living conditions survey in which deaths are a small subsection and its import lies in comparisons not over time but with the living conditions of other countries; its “war-related deaths” category is much more narrowly defined and would necessarily exclude most of the “excess” deaths shown in the Lancet survey.
There are acknowledged problems with both surveys, although some of the best known are spurious (a comparison of mortality rates in Iraq and, for example, the UK, shows the UK to be in a much worse state – but despite the war the most important factor here is the average age of the population, and while the UK has an aging population, 39% of Iraqis are under 15). For example the UNDP surveyors, unable to believe their amazingly low infant mortality statistics, resampled and then raised their estimate (for some reason they did not resample death rates in general).
But the main point to be noted here is that while the two surveys have been used in partisan attempts to refute opposition talking points, those involved know that they were’nt counting the same things and see no reason to get involved in the mudslinging.
Genocide in Babylon.
http://mymiddleast.net/index.p…..;Itemid=26
Our government hasn’t been internationally popular since long before Operation Iraqi Freedom. We are a superpower and that naturally breeds resentment among other countries. Operation Iraqi Freedom was certainily NOT an “illegal war” as you put it. Due process was followed both in beginning and in sustaining our efforts in Iraq. The Iraqi people under Saddam Hussein were expressly forbidden from having anything approaching WMD power, and although none were found, we had intelligence that implied that they were there. Even if they were not there, the Iraqi government’s initial resistance at having United States forces conduct a search is certainly grounds for suspicion. Action was required of the situation and taken. Meaning well and doing well are certainly two very different things, and in this day and age it’s incredible that anyone can “sleep easy.” Mistakes over the course of the war were certainly made, but to imply that George W. Bush is a murderer for making the decision to lead our country into war is ignorant.