
The Senate is now debating the amendment to strip the timelines out of the supplemental bill on C-SPAN 2. It should be interesting to see how Gordon Smith votes, considering he's up for re-election in 2008, and he is the only Republican to break with Bush and call for dealines for troop withdrawal. As Kos noted yesterday, Smith is running behind Democratic Congresssman Pete DeFazio in the polls, even though DeFazio has said he would not run against Smith (although MyDD is reporting a rumor that the DSCC has offered DeFazio a $5 million bounty to do so). DeFazio is a member of both the Progressive Caucus and the Out of Iraq Caucus, so Smith would be running head-to-head against a strong anti-war candidate.
The vote this afternoon is on an amendment to the supplemental that seeks to strip all language regarding timetables and withdrawal from the supplemental. In order to defeat this amendment, and assuming that Gordon Smith and Ben Nelson are on board (which are not terrible assumptions, but are assumptions none the less), right now Democrats need one more vote.
This is dangerous territory for Democrats. No matter how many good opportunities we have in 2008, A defeat like this could prevent us from nationalizing the 2008 elections. While individual Democrats will still be able to argue that individual Republicans continue to support an extremely unpopular and destructive war, unless Democrats refuse to allow Bush to get away with a blank check, we won't be able to campaign like that as an entire party. If we lose this vote, and if the Senate leadership buckles as a result, the nightmare scenario on the Iraq supplemental begins to become a real possibility (not to mention a sizable left-wing abandonment of activism on behalf of Democrats in the 2008 elections). On the other hand, if we win this vote, and as a result we are able to send a solid conference report to Bush, then Democrats will have begun the process of going to the mat and we can prepare for a huge showdown as a united party.
I'm not going to mention the fact that if certain Democratic members of the Senate (not to mention former Presidents) had gotten behind the Democratic candidate from Connecticut in the last election, this might not be an issue. But if someone else wants to point it out, go right ahead. Me, I'm not convinced Reid, Schumer and others really want to end the war -- I'm with Digby in believing that Lieberman gives them all the out that they want to make lots of noise to appease the anti-war crowd without actually doing anything that would offend some of their biggest donors. Because if they really cared, they'd be yanking HoJo's chain like a disobedient beagle rather than putting him out there as the face of the Democratic party and offering him the opportunity to be the hero of Walter Reed.
How I'd love to be proven wrong.
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McCain is just so very full of shit.
Oh, darn. Just missed the zed!
Now back to read the post.
Jane!
Jane, you are on a roll!!!! Damn, you’re good.
Can somebody explain why the Democratic leadership can’t simply put the deadlines back into the legislation in conference committee? The Republicans did this all the time.
kaleidescope @
5
Makes sense to me!
Gotta run. Back mid way into the next thread.
ROOTS !!
The Republicans would deal with this by having a junior staff member re-insert the language into the bill right before the final passage.
Not a big fan of JoeLie are ya Jane??
egregious @ 8
LOL.
Jane Hamsher @
1
And in other news, water is wet and sun rises in east. :-)
Anything in particular he said just now, Jane? Or this is just a general commentary on Mister Double Talk?
Jane Hamsher @
1
Hear Hear!!!
egregious @ 8
Works for me. New rule: Democrats get to use the same tricks the Republicans used for as long as it takes to undo the damage the Republicans did.
John McCain going on and on in detail about the current situation on the ground in Iraq. Holding forth. I wonder who cobbled together the info for him.
Biodun @
14
Lieberman?
McCain: We must not give up just at the moment we’re turning things around in Iraq.
Bull f*cking sh*t.
EPU’d from prev thread
—————
merciless @ 39
I know exactly what you mean. And since I just watched the 1.5-hour video called “JFK II” visible on Google Video at http://tinyurl.com/3a7fzj , I’m getting a pretty good idea of what slimy things are in there. Even if only half of what JFK II alleges is true, our country is in mortal peril.
And I am not a conspiracy nut; I am just a semi-retired liberal, patriotic and scrupulously truthful scientist who consulted on the acoustics study that concluded there was a shooter on the famous “Grassy Knoll,” and who (in a different forensic acoustics case) helped prove that the 18.5′ gap in the Nixon WH tape was a deliberate and intentional erasure.
JFK II ties it all together for me. The roots converge on Prescott Bush, W’s grandpappy.
I am so glad that more and more of America is realizing that McCain is full of shit. (Though I still think he has the best chance of anyone getting the GOP nod. Giuliani will flame out, and McCain has been kissing all the right asses to get the money & support. The GOP will line up behind him precisely because he’s the best shot they have among their weak candidates).
Can I just mention that this cold must be really getting to me? Not only am I watching Pauly Shore on MadTV (um, who told him he had talent?), I was two threads back wondering where everyone was. Totally missed that new threads were up.
McCain: American security interests are at stake. Also in Israel.
Huh?
And perhaps a certain Senator from the great state of NY? I am sooo smarting, still, over the non-support of Mr. Lamont by particular members of my party, the Democrats.
Jane Hamsher @ 1
The transformation from war hero to Bush toady has always been a puzzling choice.
watching now with fingers and toes crossed.
does anyone know if jim webb is going to vote against this amendment? (the only reason i ask is that last week he said he was against a withdrawal timeline).
To the Dems in Congress:
Put the timetables in, and let Shrub veto the money for his pet war. Or admit wanting the war yourself.
If they want my vote, they can do the right thing, instead of the expedient thing. (Sudden image of Far Side cartoon of bears hiding in woods, with badly-done sign directing runners into the trees.)
McCain: We can’t afford a failed state of Iraq in the middle of the Middle East.
McCain: Al Qaeda will be free to operate from Iraq, just as they have from Afghanistan.
This is banal bullsh*t.
Biodun @ 16
Riiight…
Attacks throughout Iraq kill at least 65
BAGHDAD - Two nearly simultaneous truck bombs — including one detonated by remote control — ripped through markets in Tal Afar on Tuesday, killing at least 48 people and wounding dozens, police said, as violence surged outside the Iraqi capital.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200.....mi_ea/iraq
just called my senators, told them to vote for a timetable.
Can someone PLEASE cut Saint McCains mike….
PLEASE!
Jane,
How badly I wish I could offer up a reasonable argument and disagree with you (and Digby) on the Democratic leadership. Can’t do it. They’re as in thrall to their big money donors as the Republicans.
Hope you’re feeling well.
McCain: This legislation is a plan for failure.
Bush going into Iraq was a plan for failure.
McCain is actually there for a vote? Doesn’t he have a fundraiser or something to attend to?
Biodun @ 24
So does he have a constructive suggestion for something to do with the failed state of Iraq that we have in the middle of the Middle East now? As opposed to the more-of-the-same-nonworking-plan that we keep being told about?
Phoenix Woman @
11
I’m usually impressed when I hear McCain speak, he has a very engaging presence and he lays out his position well (even if I usually think it’s garbage). I don’t find him convincing here as he’s arguing against the timelines. Not at all.
Biodun @ 24
Well Senator McCain, then I guess we shouldn’t have marched in there, overthrown their government, dismantled their military, fired their police, captured and tortured civilians, bombed the hell out of their infrastructure…
Hindsight is 20/20. But you don’t need to be a clairvoyant to have been able to accurately predict what would be the result of our taking these actions, do ya?
We are within millimeters of a world war.
He’s now fusing sectarian violence with terrorism.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 35
——————————-
yep
mccain - false distinction between terrorism and sectarian violence.
me - oh, right… any violence we don’t like is terrorism.
Time table? Now! Cut the funding.
P J Evans @
23
Call up Harry Reid and tell him that if he wants to gain and not LOSE Senate seats in ‘08, he’d better make sure the timetable stays in or else there WILL be a big third-party movement siphoning off just enough votes to screw him the way he screwed us.
It’s not that most of us want to see this. But if he doesn’t preserve the timetable, some of us will have no other choice but to punish him in a way he will understand viscerally.
I’m not going to mention the fact that if certain Democratic members of the Senate (not to mention former Presidents) had gotten behind the Democratic candidate from Connecticut in the last election, this might not be an issue. But if someone else wants to point it out, go right ahead.
Joe Lieberman is a miserable, lying excuse for a human being. And those who have supported him can plead either 1) ignorance, or 2) cynicism.
Mark Pryor is another bad actor. I was sick when Gen. Clark endorsed is re-election.
McCain: No guarantee of success.
You got that right.
In other words, he doesn’t believe it either. Sad.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 39
and if pelosi’s strategy ends up with bush cutting his own funding, i will happily prostrate myself in her direction.
McCain: Sh*t-talk Express
Exactamundo.
Phoenix Woman @
44
That is my impression.
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 41
Connecticut voters usually pled that they didn’t want to lose a guy with oodles of seniority. (Though that didn’t stop them from dumping Lowell Weicker for Holy Joe in ‘88.)
Jane Hamsher @
1
INDEED!!!
But those who thought he was anything but, just didn’t look at his voting record.
twolf1 @ 46
yep.
no way i could listen to this without fdl moral support…
selise @
22
From ThinkProgress:
Senator Webb’s important news
McCain sounds like a wet noodle…….as limp as they come!
This is a little OT but I think it’s an interesting question :
Does anyone think in a little more than two years, that George W Bush will remain a public figure?
Somehow, I doubt it. I suspect he will fade into such immediate obscurity, the networks and so forth will NEVER seek his opinion because he has none, outside what is scripted for him.
He is such a pathetic little man, ignorant, inarticulate, and he likes it that way, I suspect he’ll fade into obscurity without a bubble, and that’s hard to do these days, with cameras and such everywhere.
I also believe he’ll need a LOT more security around him than any modern ex-president.
Will be interesting to see how quickly and how harshly history judges him.
McCain slipped in mentioning Israel.
Reid does not appear on one of my lists of AIPAC-supported, but the Kucinich site says he had $253,000 .
D’ja see just how many of them all from Congress were at the “AIPAC Conference”? Those of us who are not blind are convinced the NY link was the immediate cause of W Clinton’s support for Lieberman. Remember Lieberman is an Israeli citizen, as is Chertoff, BTW.
Americans, your boys are in IRaq on behalf of Israel in geopolitics and on behalf of Bush’s/Cheny’s oil pals.
McCain is a truly sickening liar: this is not a Republican POV, but an apologist bullshitter.
McCain: We must put aside the small politics of the day.
Franco @
37
Every second of every day for the last 50 years.
Phoenix Woman @ 49
That is covered by 2) cynicism.
Webb up.
Webb up now… cspan2
Biodun @ 53
No such animal lately.
Everything is a battle with these guys.
And , BTW, Fuck you McCain. Backstabbing bastard.
Yea!!! Jim Webb is reintroducing his Iran amendment!!!
selise @ 38
I can’t remember who said it a couple of years ago, but it remains a truism: You will know we have lost the “War on Terror” when we refer to everyone we’re fighting as terrorists.
selise @ 45
Count me in. Please. I like our Speaker. ;0)
Iraq may be the glittering distraction now. It looks as if Bush/Cheney and the Neo-cons are on their time-table for the Iran war. Two carrier battle groups now doing war games in the gulf. Does anyone know when the Patriot batteries will become operational? The Iran War window is “said” to be the third week in April.
This time, I don’t think they will bother with bullshit to justify the Iran strikes, they will just do it..just a big fuck you to the Dems and 75% of the American people.
McCain is concerned about Iraq becoming a failed state.
Under the leadership of his party and his parties’ president, America is becoming a failed state.
-GSD
maunga @ 54
On this issue, and more, I like Kucinich.
maunga @
54
Wikipedia:
Israeli Law of Return
He thinks they’re gonna do it. I feel sick.
RealWorld @
61
And specifically mentions the signing statement tacked on to the AUMF. Go Jim!
GSD from the previous, and OK Kiddo
Sorry, —- I am v tired and so incredibly angry I am not reading well.
GSD @ 65
McCain is for me, a failed Senator. ;0)
Weasel shit Lindsey Graham!
And I would LOVE to see DeFazio run against Smith.
DeFazio is one of us.
Smith has a couple of decent things behind him, like the funding for suicide prevention*, but for the most part is a REPUG.
*Smiths son committed suicide after years of mental problems.
Lindsay the annoyance up now and blabbering Rovian talking points…junk pure junk!
Lindsey Graham: the surge is working. congress isn’t working.
raven # 73
You expected anything else from him?
(I’d call Congresscritters, but my cell can’t get out from work. Two bars, max.)
OT: from the Chicago Sun-Times -
Attorney General Alberto Gonzales visited Chicago and dashed out of a news conference this afternoon in just two and a half minutes before answering questions about his office rating U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald as mediocre.
Gonzales was here to promote a new ad campaign, but was quickly bombarded with questions over a firing scandal consuming his department.
Snort.
Yikes. I was still one thread down, cheering on Jim Webb and wondering where everybody else was. Silly me.
Lindsey Graham is a scumbag. And I mean that in the nicest possible way.
kaleidescope @ 5
They can and they will, I think that is the assumption here. This is just the GOP senators pretending to try and help Bush.
S.O.S. from MA at 12:19 pm
I haven’t seen that video (my computer is allergic to youtubes) but this site has tons of info:
www.jfkmurdersolved.com
The threads of evidence that lead to the Bush Family:
www.jfkmurdersolved.com/bush.htm
Note to Linsay…congress is working NOW…after six years of NOT working and backing the corrupt Bushies….
Raven @ 7l:
Weasel shit? Funny. Will have to remember that. Am always on the lookout for new epithets.
If it was right that Jewish people were given a homeland in 1948, and it was right, then it is right for the world to afford the Palestinians a homeland.
annx @ 77
Old Cut and Run Gonzales.
-GSD
Graham: “We can’t let suicide bombers determine our future.”
We can’t let weasels like you, Lindsey, determine our future.
Come out Lindsay, come out…you’ll feel better and it will relieve your constipation!
Mrs. K8 @ 78
Seeing as it is mixed company, there is one other “bag” that I would compare Senator Huckleberry to.
I wonder if those bags come in mint-julep scent for the NEO-CONfederates.
-GSD
Lindsey’s looking into the camera now, and pleading.
“Petraeus is our last best chance.”
He reminds me of the late-night ads for the local used car dealership.
For the sake of Jeebus, Jane! How do you expect us love-struck imbeciles to follow you around if you move so damn quick!!?? And how the hell are we supposed to get any work done if you keep on posting great stuff like this!!??
Mrs. K8 @ 85
That is just what the Bush policy has been for the past six years. Weighing everything against the words of a kook like Bin Laden.
-GSD
Stephen Parrish, CPA
Knowing that the Old Testament “history” is` entirely a work of fiction, that the Hebrews first became other than a small disorganized group of hill tribesmen, Canaanites (what Palestinians were called then), in about 630BC, inhabiting an area of Palestine about 15 miles in diameter, one is a little mind-blown by the trouble caused.
Netanyahu sr has a lot to answer for.
Lindsay Graham up talking about the mess in Iraq, somehow leaving out that Iraq is Our Mess, nor=t theirs, that deadly, the fastest way to fix it is now to let then kill each other until they tire of it, like India/Pakistan in 1947, Northern Ireland 1969/97, name it!
L Graham still calls it a War, when what we a re doing is Occupying!
Graham talking about honor?
Thats rich.
I’m with Jane.
I’ll say this, Obama calculated that having Ned in the senate would take away from his antiwar stance as a presidential candidate. Now Obama can position himself as being antiwar by introducing a resolution to bring the troops home, then go out and preen and campaign about it, instead of demonstrating leadership in getting something done.
I have to wonder about Obama’s commitment if he choose not to support the man who changed the dialogue about the war. And why he did not work hard to get him elected. Ned would’ve been a strong ally.
Also, I have to wonder about his commitment to grow the Democratic party is he didn’t stand for the candidate of choice by CT’s Democrats.
GSD @ 89
And then proceeding to do absolutely everything bin Laden would WANT us to do to destroy ourselves.
Byrd up now… cspan2
There is my Senator, Patty Murray, donating her time to Sen Byrd.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 51
jim webb spoke on these (iran amendment and hagel joint amendment) also last week at the national press club…. still wondering about his vote on withdrawal timeline amendment.
What was that movie, well before 9-11, that was about an attack on nyc and then our civil liberties were dissolved?
Millineryman @ 94
I’m with you.
The Chicago Trib has the Gonzales non-presser story, with a very nice picture of Fitz looking at Gonzo. The expression is close to ‘Am I going to be drafted for this investigation?’
Franco @ 86
The funny thing is… I always thought this guy was a threat to run for president. A real dark horse candidate. Guess not.
Byrd
“many grievously wounded”
I sure hope you are wrong about the Senate leadership Jane but the more I see the less hope I have that it is not true. There doesn’t seem to be any other rational explanation.
Feel better and remember what my wife kept saying during her chemo. “I am not going to let the fact that my doctor is trying to poison me get me down.”
I like this old fart.
egregious @ 99
Planet of the Apes. We’re living it.
Mrs. K8 @ 93
Precisely. Heck, many of the Bin Laden video and audio tapes said how much he wanted us to keep George Bush to keep the US mired in war in Iraq. He said that Bush would continue to pursue long-term war and it would bankrupt our country and build hatred for America across much of the world. For some reason, those parts of the tapes never made it onto the nightly newscasts.
Meanwhile, back in CT, and not to break a thread - Lieberman’s Mini-Minion Stuart Korchin is causing all kinds of problems for the Connecticut for Lieberman Party. He’s sending nasty e-mails, and keeps changing our Wikipedia page
http://www.myleftnutmeg.com/sh.....aryId=6314
However, we got an article in the Connecticut Post about it -
http://www.connpost.com/localnews/ci_5527263
Free publicity, I guess.
Celtic Music @ 79
shie eatin dog fucker of the lowest denomination?
On lunch at work. Is this TPM Muckraker’s first hat tip to firedoglake? My take is that it is. Good for them, and to Paul Kiel. Commenters there frequently link to fdl or mention essays or comments here, and I don’t think Josh Marshall has ever mentioned the site.
Was Paul Wellstone Murdered?
By Michael I. Niman, AlterNet
Posted on October 28, 2002,
http://www.alternet.org/story/14399/
Paul Wellstone was the only progressive in the U.S. Senate. Mother Jones magazine once described him as, “The first 1960s radical elected to the U.S. senate.” He was also the last. Since defeating incumbent Republican Rudy Boschowitz 12 years ago in a grassroots upset, Wellstone emerged as the strongest, most persistent, most articulate and most vocal Senate opponent of the Bush administration.
—Wellstone now joins the ranks of other American politicians who died in small plane crashes. Another recent victim was Missouri’s former Democratic governor, Mel Carnahan, who lost his life in 2000, three weeks before Election Day, during his Senatorial race against John Ashcroft. Carnahan went on to become the first dead man to win a Senatorial race, humiliating and defeating the unpopular Ashcroft posthumously. Ashcroft, despite his unpopularity, went on to be appointed Attorney General by George W. Bush. Investigators determined that Carnahan’s plane went down due to “poor visibility.”
Carnahan was the second Missouri politician to die in a small plane crash. The first was Democratic Representative Jerry Litton, whose plane crashed the night he won the Democratic nomination for senate in 1976. His Republican opponent ultimately captured the seat from his successor in November.
While an article in the New York Times on Saturday pointed out the danger politicians face due to their heavy air travel schedules, the death of a senator or member of Congress is still relatively rare, with only one other sitting U.S. Senator, liberal Republican John Heinz, dying in a plane crash since World War II. Heinz, who entered office as an outspoken opponent of the Vietnam War, later emerged as a strong proponent of health care, social services, public transportation and the environment. He also urged reconciliation with Cuba. He died when the landing gear on his small plane failed to function, and a helicopter dispatched to survey the problem crashed into his plane.
One former senator, John Tower, also died in a small plane crash. Tower was best known as the chair of the Tower Commission, which investigated the Reagan/Bush era Iran/Contra scandal.
http://www.alternet.org/story/14399/
——Whether or not all these odd stories in the 48 hours leading up to Nov. 22 are ‘keyjacking’ or not, the facts around the CIA murder of President Kennedy which I noted should be known by all RI readers and every American, too. Those are true.
Recommended experts on the JFK hit:
John Judge
L. Fletcher Prouty
Lisa Pease
James DiEugenio
Mark Lane
Disinfo agents to avoid:
Gerald Posner
Anyone else want to recommend sources for newbies to the CIA coup against JFK?
http://rigint.blogspot.com/
(yikes, it is toto time outside my window. from blue skies to squall in moments. wind blowing, trees whipping, rain horizontal. los angeles folk living south of h’wood beware: wicked weather your way comes…)
scarecrow @
106
I think it was ‘The Siege’.
-GSD
egregious @ 99
“The Siege” with Denzel. Really predicted well the approach to erode civil liberties.
Biodun @
25
Remind me again. Did we win in Afghanistan, or did we cut and run? I’m having trouble keeping the talking points straight.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 63
i am so hoping to be wrong on this one. (in thinking that the withdrawal timeline will be removed by the senate (or in conference)…. Or that Bush will not veto the bill, but instead use one of his signing statements to take the money and do what he wants.)
p.s. don’t quote me without zig maintenance.
[Please do not re-quote more than twice, this is 3, thanks]
Here he goes with the ‘micromanage the commander in chief ‘ BS again.
Some one needs to do it.
The Democrats will have a true majority in congress when they can figure out how the last 3 Republican administrations have imperiled Israel with their hardline stance, thus greatly multiplying Israel’s enemies. Yet, the Democrats are the ones painted as anti- Israel and weak on terror.
It would be the greatest joke if the consequences were not so tragic.
Jane, Christy, TRex, some of these quotes are priceless and should be put in a book or at least sold to the spineless Democrats to use as soundbites.
for example:
Graham: “We can’t let suicide bombers determine our future.”
We can’t let weasels like you, Lindsey, determine our future.
- Mrs. K8 @ 85
McCain is concerned about Iraq becoming a failed state.
Under the leadership of his party and his parties president, America is becoming a failed state.
- GSD
Jane’s comments are probably enough to fill a couple of volumes.
Bustednuckles @ 117
“Bitchslap the CIC” would be more like it.
Edit: Dear Secret Service, I mean that “bitchslap” in a metaphorical, political sense. Mrs. K8
A big virtual hug for that one Mrs. K8!
Why am I not surprised?
just finished some work in time to hear Hagel say Iraq belongs to the Iraqis … shocking concept!
Frank Probst @ 110
I was watching a rerun of the 10,000 Day war on the History Channel and there was President Thieu saying, “The Americans cut and run on us”!
Siun @ 121
yeah, I am reeling here. When is the blame on the Iraqis coming?
I wish I had heard Webb.
Iraq is OVER.
I’m more concerned about the failed state called the United States of America.
It is truly sad when someone cannot ask about how someone is doing, whom they admire and respect. Adios.
Guitar_Playing_Bastard @ 54
i
I guess Hagel is not a loyal Bushie…
BWAAAAHAHAHhahahaha
RealWorld @
62
EXCELLENT!
That’s a good sign.
rosalind @ 110
Rain and snow around Pershing Square (snow above 10th floor level), and a updraft that was taking leaves out of view straight up. It seems to have slacked off now, but it was lively for a few miniutes.
weather.com has a new Doppler radar view, with the radar data over a satellite view - zoomable.
Bustednuckles @ 120
And a big hug back atcha.
And I need ‘em. Hell, I’m sure we all need ‘em. Things are so fuckin’ scary!
Siun @ 117
Hagel bashing them with Friedman units.
LMAO
Are we going to get to the vote today?
Going after the mercenaries– Blackwater!
Yay Hagel!
Petrocelli @ 117
Petrocelli? That was one of my favorite shows when I was a kid.
BTW is there video of the debate online?
Not near a teevee, thanks
Hagel reminding all the ReTHUGS that we don’t have a King…..
OK kiddo @ 125
Huh? I think I missed something there. Don’t disappear on us, please.
cheviteau @ 127
What? Obscurity? I think not. For numerous generations to come, mothers will use his name to frighten little children into good behavior. His name will be a curseword forever.
“We tried a monarchy once…”
Ouch!
P J Evans @ 133
Maybe OK got vetoed?
Frank Probst @ 134
Wolfie says yes and that the Reps think they have the votes to kill it
Hagel has little chance of being Their Candidate on this`showing. Now he has mentioned Bus/Cheny’s mercenary army — their SS/SD Leibstandart Division, Blackwater. Naughty! Naughty!
Now he is talking about King George Jr
Tell’em Chuckie!
“This bill does NOT CUT OFF FUNDS”….think they heard it this time?
annx @ 76
PLEASE - let there be video! Looking now…
Registration required…
McCain wins Support From a Closet Queen
Siun @ 119
But their oil belongs to ExxonMobil.
Hagel—if we don’t want to debate anything because oooh the President might veto it, why do we need to have a Congress?
Not a very good transcription I’m afraid, but that is the sense of what he said.
Link to debate.
C-span 2.
http://www.c-span.org/watch/cs.....p;Code=CS2
this is great news. the times I have talked to Rep. DeFazio have been most refreshing. He has answered my emails when I do not live in his district any longer, having formerly lived in his territory.
this is a no nonsense fellow folks. Drives a 65′ US car with a very smart and common approach.
and to top it off, he lives in Springfield, and the Simpson’s live down the street, or tis said to be so.
DeFazio or John Kitzhaber would either crush ol’ Gordo and we would not have the confusion of such a “moderate” any longer
Hagel raising his voice now.
He’s no friend of mine for the rest of his policies, but I’ll take this! Go, Chuck!
angie @ 134
Could Hagel actually be trying to show that deep down, he really is what McCain claims to be?
Or is he going to chicken out at the last minute?
Meanwhile, here are some phone numbers:
Reid’s DC office: 202-224-3542
Democratic news room: 202-224-2939
Call either one and let them know that a bunch of folk are poised to seriously rev up the third party engines (or at least field primary challengers) in ‘08 if Reid doesn’t save the timetable.
Petrocelli @ 117
actually i think bush 41 might have been better than clinton. it was during the clinton years that the number of israeli settlers living in the westbank skyrocketed (i think it is something like 400,000 now) - effectively creating a political impossibility for any israeli politician to overcome without outside intervention.
that said - imo, NOTHING has been so dangerous to both israelis and palestinians as bush 43’s policies.
both the Ds and the Rs are going to have to change policies if we are going to do right by the people of israel and the occupied territories.
I hope he’s on the front page of every newspaper in the world, every day. And I hope he has plenty of security around him. Like four armed guards 24/7….guarding him in his cell. In The Hague. With Alberto as his jailhouse lawyer.
Way off topic to Ed*ard Teller - you wrote about being inspired for a musical composition earlier. Can you transpose September sunlight in Alaska into music? It was low and musical and stunning; the memory of it stuns me yet. The closest I can imagine is Bach on the cello. But, for a more contemporary sound? Do you know what I mean?
john in sacramento @
135
Mine too, did they ever finish building that house?
I am at home watching the debate … almost fell asleep 3 times. Senators have to be most boring people … which explains Kerry’s persona, or lack of one.
Bustednuckles @ 148
Thanks, Busted ;-)
Excellent speech and points by Hagel, imho.
Thune - “Democrat majority”
annx @ 78
“On second thought, let’s not go to Chicago. It is a silly place.” Runaway! Runaway!
hagel is arguing for the withdrawal timeline!
will he be the vote we need to prevent the withdrawal timeline from being removed from the bill??!!!
i don’t have cable or anything, just got back from errands, so when i signed on and read your headline, i thought it was already voted and passed………holy cow, jane, scared me……….well, whatever happens, this particular vote will have consequences…….tangible ones…….let’s see who does what……..and why………
those of you who blog what is going on on cspan et al, thanks……
Thune: hissssss
He just spat out “Democrat Party”. Like a red flag to a bull, pal.
new thread upstairs…
Hagel speech may be turning point
Oklahoma kiddo @ 125 -
please don’t go away! come back!!
dmac @ 162
Do you have high-speed connection? You can watch on c-span’s website.
EPU’d, and always on-thread..
Is there any way Waxman and Congress can empanel new investigative committees, or grand juries, to get to the bottom of each of these myriad issues? We have a full plate of corruption before us, it’s a ten-course meal, with Impeachment for desert, but Waxman’s the only chef in the kitchen.
Can Congress separate these duties down to smaller, issue-dedicated investigations that can EACH hold subpoena powers through Waxman’s committee?
Seems to me we need to reinstate the “Special Prosecutor” position, particularly when dealing with the DOJ.
Here’s something from to that effect from NYTimes Op-Ed Contributor NEAL KATYAL.
“IN 1999, when the Independent Counsel Act (the law that gave Kenneth Starr and Lawrence Walsh their mandates) was expiring, I was given the job of writing the new Justice Department rules for the appointment of a special prosecutor since the department would once again be responsible for overseeing such investigations. There was one hypothetical to worry about once the Independent Counsel Act lapsed: a case in which the attorney general…(is)…suspected of possible misconduct. The rules were therefore written to vest the decision about whether to appoint a special prosecutor in the top Justice Department official not embroiled in the controversy. Today, the only way to get to the bottom of the United States attorney scandal — which involved the administration’s firing of nearly 10 percent of America’s top prosecutors — is to use these rules and appoint a special prosecutor.
The nightmare has now come true.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03.....atyal.html
selise @ 165
What happened?
We need you, OK.
(No Thune — those are not the fronts on the WOT– you are the affront!)
another shrill chickenhawk fearmonger.
Thune channeling 9/11 … pfft!
“This bill invites our enemies into the heart of our country!” Thune
Thune - Port security - enemies farther away from us…
THEN WHY DOES DUBAI CONTROL OUR PORTS EVEN THOUGH WE DON’T WANT THEM TO!!!! )*^(&%^^)*^!!!
1,467 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen S.O.S. from MA @17:
“…our country in in mortal peril…The roots converge on Prescott Bush, W’s grandpappy.”
There is an echo in here, brother…the “vast right-wing conspiracy” has been workin’ steadily since the 1930’s and is very organized, wealthy and amoral. The oligarchy of the United States has used the corporate economic model anthropomorphized by the Supreme Court to not only consolidate capital but create a shadow governing structure that now includes private mercenary armies and a federally funded prison system. Even if we succeed in disinfecting the fascists from our current government, congress and judiciary, we will never recapture the wealth that has been taken from the mass of working Americans and transferred to the rich to create this tyranny.
And this is not news to most of our political elite…as a matter of fact even the so called “liberal” national politicians like Mrs. Clinton and Barak Obama have bowed to the power of corporate campaign contributions in order to serve as figureheads in this Potemkin government.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THE HARD PART IS GUNNA BE GETTIN’ THE MONEY BACK!!
NorskeFlamethrower @ 172
My man!
Thune (R)- South Dakota
” … it is about good vs evil, right vs wrong, freedom vs tyranny, hope vs cynicism.”
- he forgot to add “Neocons Vs America”.
Steve @ 42
Didn’t Clark endorse Lieberman, too?
Selise at 160 -
Hagel is a more credible antiwar/impeachment voice than Democratic DLC accomodationists like Obama, Lieberman, and Clinton.
while good ole Levin blames the Iraqis …
sheesh, Maliki is our puppet … if he’s not doing precisely what you want, yank his strings harder
This made me laugh
from Josh Marshall
Attorney General Alberto Gonzales dashed out of a Chicago news conference this afternoon in just two and a half minutes, ducking questions about how his office gave U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald a subpar rating.
Gonzales, who increasingly faces calls for his resignation, was here to promote a new ad campaign and had planned a 15-minute press availability. He left after taking just three questions over a firing scandal consuming his administration.
Before leaving, Gonzales said he wanted to “reassure the American people that nothing improper happened here.”
sporkovat @ 176
But Hagel votes with Bush when it counts. And Obama a) does not and b) is not DLC.
oh boy .. joe boy
JEP @
176
No, while Wes Clark endorsed Pryor (God knows why!) he did not/would not ever endorse Lieberman - he endorsed and stumped for Ned Lamont.
I liked Levin for lots of reasons til he was (iirc) the first prominent dem to start the blame game.
Ticks me off no end and entirely predictable today.
ack, Lieberliar up!
NorskeFlamethrower @ 172
The Plot to Steal the Whitehouse
Everything you said is all true
Thune’s speechwriter is Claude Cliche’, a Dakota Republican.
Thune’s playing to the fears of his own constituents, Cheney, Rice, Bush et al and their mushroom clouds have all those folks convinced that Pierre, S.D. must certainly the terrorists primary target…
What a bag of shit. Lieberman: our cause in Iraq is just and necessary. We continue to have a good chance of success there.
Why don’t you go there, you pompous toad.
PW - Obama’s PAC supported all DLC candidates until right before Nov … haven’t looked at the figures since then but his PAC - which is now gone due to his campaign - listed Clinton, Lieberman, both Nelson’s etc as “the candidates” it supported.
everhopeful @ 181
Sorry for the error, I was wrong again.
They just had a commercial on for Carlson’s show with Gonzo. Just before I turned it off (no one in there watching) Gonzo said ‘I would never interfere in a ongoing corruption investigation’.
Me to TV: ‘Like h*ll!’
Lieberman: This is decisive turning point…
Should Congress impose a deadline?..
NO, NO, NO.
Our cause in Iraq remains just…and we have possibility of success…
This withdrawal of our troops would essentially be giving up on our cause in Iraq just when our chance of success is possible…
Surely my colleagues are not suggesting that our military should not police a civil war…they have in the past and they will in the future.
Phoenix Woman @ 179
Is Vilsack still head of the DLC? Or is it Terry McCauliffe? Or am I wrong again onall counts?
Jowl says we’re protecting our allies in the region by not leaving.
Um, how many do we have again?
sheesh.
Trying to pretend that he is protecting all the downtrodden in the world by staying.
angie @ 192
Yes, it is only polite to let them all leave first - which they are in the process of doing.
“Iraq has a government … freely elected by the people” - LIEberman
Hey Joe, you said the same thing about Bush and he was not elected by the majority of Americans. He stole the elections twice in America. That is why the World does not trust any government supported by Bush & CO.horts
We as Americans have a moral responsibility to not walk away and turn our backs on this slaughter..
The sectarian violence is extermination…
If we leave we invite a genocide in Iraq.
Al-Qaeda pushing US to the point of retreat….
The worst sectarian violence in Iraq being committed by Al-Qaeda and other terrorists..not by Sunnis and Shia.
Sadr has disappeared, displaced families returning to their homes, for the first time in a long time, reason for cautious optimism…
Siun @ 186
But the argument was about how he voted, and what group he was a member of — not to whom he gave money. And in order to achieve a majority - a majority that has made all these wonderful hearings and revelations possible (the DoJ whistleblowers would never have come forward if the Republicans controlled even one House of Congress), there were a lot of candidates that had to be backed that we didn’t all agree with 100%. 2008 is when we do the weeding and the primary challengers — but one must keep in mind that what we think is nifty may not be what the majority of the people in Oklahoma or Nebraska or Mississippi think is nifty. If we nominate primary challengers, they have to be viable or we just hand the seat to the GOP at great expense to us.
Pheonix Woman
Nothing counts more than ending the war (by de-funding it) thereby differentiating the Democratic party from the despised george w. and his policies.
If the Democrats don’t do this, then it is their war too in 08.
Obama saber rattles against Iran (at the behest of AIPAC) just like Bush.
Hagel offers bi-partisan cover for putting Impeachment “on the table.”
Obama voted for the renewal of the Patriot Act, and did not lend his considerable national star power to opposition to the Military Commisions Act. Where is his voice on repeal of this monstrosity?
Sorry, I don’t care if he voted in favor of a National Dental Plan or some such - he epitimizes the DLC type of cautious, poll-drivel triangulation, and is as bereft of principle where it counts as Hillary.
He just has a better P.R. facade that has a lot of people fooled.
PW - Obama had identified himself with the DLC interests - he seems to have backed off a bit now - but I don’t plan to forget his lack of support for Lamont. I have mixed feelings about Obama but I’m not about to ignore where he placed his loyalty in the past.
1,467 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen phoenix woman and the Firepup Patriots:
Do you know sumpthin’ about Obama that belies his recent history? He supported every single DLC candidate except Joe Likuderman and that was only because Ol’ Joe wasn’t runnin’ as a Democrat. But tell me where his money comes from, what is his relationship to the University of Chicago, who are his “sugar daddies” and handlers…and dear lady, just where does he stand on the most important issues of the day such as the union movement, affirmative action, slavery reparations, the progressive income tax, redistribution of wealth, and reinvigorating the securities and exchange laws and regulations (to ask only a few)?
His stance against the war is easy since almost 70% of the voting population opposes it and he didn’t vote for the enabling legislation, but I agree with Bill Clinton on this one…Barak Obama’s stance visavis the war ain’t very far from Mrs. Clinton’s.
He’s slick, good lookin’ and well spoken but I would like to hear from Bobby Rush for his opinion about who Barak Obama really is (and he ain’t talkin’).
sorry.. wrong thread!
Pach says we can talk about the vote and speeches upstairs, fyi.
whip count not looking good from what I hear …
and Jane and Digby are right.
Smack ‘em with a Dick (Durbin) - D (Illinois)
The head of the DLC is Harold Ford Jr. not Vilsach or McAuliff
carolyn urban @
186
Can anyone in CT let us know how the press there treats Holy Joe & his treachery? Please.
Obama not DLC? In what parallel universe?
I know him personally and respect what he is doing.
But to say he is not DLC? Wrong.
Mauimom @ 205
As far as I know, excepting the Hartford Courant, CT press treats Liarman treats Liarman with very little scrutiny. They need to wakeup. I was really surprised when a local news channel affiliated with Fox actually covered the Wilton high school Iraq War play.
I am with Siun on Barack Obama. During the Lamont campaign, I got the feeling he’s basically a cookie cutter conservative Democrat.
hmmm not many defenders of Joe-Bama on here… could it be that the old Con the Beltway Dems always play is breaking down?
1,467 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Firepup Patriots:
I said this last fall and I’ll restate it for all those who took runs at me then: “Barak Obama is a black Joe Lieberman.”
KEEP THE FAITH AND DON’T BE AFRAID TA CALL A SPADE A SHOVEL!!
I can’t watch CSPAN since the local cable chan. is “not avialable” and “will be available shortly”
grrrr!
is this by design? sorry I’m getting so cynical with government and media
The vote is on CSPAN 2 here, and I am currently watching it.
Webb voted NO on the amendment to strip timetables.
Linda @ 208
if you have broadband, you can stream the c-span webcast.
50 nays to 48 yeahs! hot dog!
annx @ 78
Is Abu appearing in the Gap skinny pants campaign? Or the new boyfriend chinos. Or are he and Fitz posing in their white undies for a new Dove ad?
P J Evans @ 101
They’re even wearing matching suits.
Gordon Smith and Chuck Hagel joined 48 Dems to keep the timetable, despite Pryor and Liarman voting with the Repubs to strip it out.