
At the very end of the Plame hearing last Friday, Henry Waxman suggested to Victoria Toensing that she had not been entirely accurate in her testimony.
Waxman: Ms. Toensing, I just only can say that we are pleased to accommodate the request of the Minority to have you as a witness and some of the statements you’ve made without any doubt and with great authority I understand may not be accurate so we’re going to check the information and we’re going to hold the record open to put in other things that might contradict some of what you had to say. (At 4:02:13 on CSPAN)
All of a sudden Toensing's face collapsed with the realization that her blatherings might have overstepped a line.
Inaccuracy #1: Corn identified Plame as covert
David Corn has already done a bit of fact-checking Toensing. In addition to catching her conflating "stationed" "resided," and "served" overseas, Corn notes that Toensing has recycled an old yarn about his role in the story--claiming that he, not Novak, was the first to out Valerie.
Bottom line: I did not identify her as a "covert" officer or any other kind of CIA official. I merely speculated she was a NOC. That speculation was based on Novak's column. And given that Novak had already IDed her as a CIA "operative on weapons of mass destruction" (which happened to be a "covert" position within the agency), her cover--whether nonofficial or official--was blown to smithereens by the time I posted my article.
Toensing is engaged in a desperation-driven and misleading act of hairsplitting when she contends that Novak merely called her an "operative" and that I was the first to "print that she was covert." I never said Valerie Wilson was anything.
Inaccuracy #2: Wilson said "he was sent ... by the Vice President's Office"
But there are a couple more items where "the facts" Toensing "knows" are none such thing. For example, here is Toensing explaining why the White House was justified in outing Plame.
Toensing: I have no idea why they gave out that information. I do know that there was this allusion by Joe Wilson that he was sent on the trip by the Vice President’s Office so it made sense to me that if you’re sitting in the Vice President’s Office to say, we didn’t send him. We don’t know what’s this all about and in the inquiry as I understand it and you may have different facts the response was, his wife sent him, and guess who did that? The INR statement at the State Department. (3:53:50)
I guess, if Joe Wilson said he was sent by the Vice President's Office, that makes it okay. Only this statement is based on two falsehoods. First, Wilson didn't say "he was sent by the Vice President's Office" (though notice Toensing's creative use of "allusion," her). Rather, here's what Wilson said:
In February 2002, I was informed by officials at the Central Intelligence Agency that Vice President Dick Cheney's office had questions about a particular intelligence report. While I never saw the report, I was told that it referred to a memorandum of agreement that documented the sale of uranium yellowcake - a form of lightly processed ore - by Niger to Iraq in the late 1990's. The agency officials asked if I would travel to Niger to check out the story so they could provide a response to the vice president's office.
At least when he gets to formulate the description himself, Wilson doesn't say, "he was sent on the trip by the Vice President's Office" (as if that would justify outing his wife). Rather, he said just what the CIA said--that he was sent by the CIA in hopes of answering questions the Vice President asked.
Inaccuracy #3: The INR memo said "his wife sent him"
But that's not all, from this passage. Toensing claims that the response to the Vice President's inquiries about who sent Wilson--the response of the INR memo--was that "his wife sent him." Toensing is arguing here that the INR memo said that Valerie sent Joe.
Probably, Toensing is thinking not of the INR memo, but of the erroneous mis-citation of Douglas Rohn's notes from the SSCI report, which says,
[the February 19 meeting was] apparently convened by [the former ambassador's; SSCI brackets] wife who had the idea to dispatch [him] to use his contacts to sort out the Iraq-Niger uranium issue
But as we know, Rohn's notes--which the SSCI purports to be "quoting" here actually say,
apparently convened by Valerie Wilson, a CIA WMD managerial type and the wife of Amb. Joe Wilson, with the idea that the Agency and the larger USG could dispatch Joe to Niger to use his contacts there to sort out the Iraq-Niger uranium sale question.
The difference is fairly significant. The SSCI attributes the decision ("who had the idea") to Valerie, whereas the actual notes don't name who had the idea to send Joe. And while the memo itself introduces further error (removing the "apparently" and alleging that Valerie convened the meeting), that still doesn't prove Valerie sent (or suggested) Joe. And of course, the INR memo itself--what Toensing cites as the source of her "knowledge"--is less definitive still. It describes the meeting this way:
In a February 19, 2002, meeting [note they remove the word "apparently"] convened by Valerie Wilson, a CIA WMD manager and the wife of Joe Wilson, he previewed his plans and rationale for going to Niger but said he would only go if the Department thought his trip made sense.
Sure sounds like a boondoggle to me, huh? Only, the actual INR memo says nothing about Valerie sending Joe--and it shows that Joe was not overwhelmingly enthusiastic about going.
Surprise, Toensing was right, we do have different facts. You know, the facts based on the actual document, rather than based on a misquotation of something that isn't actually the document Toensing cites it as. I don't know about you--but I'll take the facts that accord with the documents Toensing herself cites.
Inaccuracy #4: Robert Grenier, CIA briefer, told Libby about Valerie Plame
Toensing gets even sloppier when she tries to explain how negligent the CIA was in leaking Plame's name (apparently) to Scooter Libby. She claims that "CIA briefer" Robert Grenier told Libby about "Valerie Plame."
Toensing: I would agree with you that it was a bad situation that happened. But I say shame on the CIA. The briefer did not tell anybody at the White House that she was...
Waxman: How do you know that?
[Waxman and Toensing are talking over each other here]
Toensing: [raises finger to lips] shhhh.
Waxman: How do you know that?
Toensing: He testified to that at the Scooter Libby trial.
Waxman: The briefer? Which briefer?
Toensing: Uh, Grenier. Robert Grenier.
Let me interrupt for a moment. You see, if a briefer had shared this with Libby, it might imply that said briefer had gone, done formal research, and still told Libby about Plame with no warning.
Only, Robert Grenier was not a briefer. Craig Schmall was Libby's briefer, not Robert Grenier. Robert Grenier was the Iraq Mission Manager. He had called CPD for information, gotten it--though not from the Deputy Chief of the Joint Task Force on Iraq whom he called about it--and passed it on as quickly as possible. And not in a formal briefing situation, but in a response to Libby after having been pulled out of a meeting with DCI Tenet. So to begin with, Toensing, who "knows" so many things, isn't even clear who the players are.
Toensing goes on from here, stating clearly that Grenier had "talked about Valerie Plame."
Waxman: And he was the briefer from the CIA?
Toensing: …from the CIA. Yes, he was the one.
Waxman: Go ahead
Toensing: He said, “I talked about Valerie Plame. I talked about the wife with Scooter Libby and the Vice President but I didn’t tell him” … and this was on cross-examination. He admitted that he had not said that her status was either classified or covert. (3:58:14 on CSPAN)
Huh. CIA briefer Robert Grenier talked about Valerie Plame, huh? That's funny, because Grenier made it pretty clear in his testimony that he didn't know the name, Valerie Plame. He says it once:
Did the Ambassador's wife's name come up [with the person who told him about her purported role]?
No, I'm certain that person did not tell.
And a second time:
I didn't tell him Valerie Wilson's name, because I didn't know that.
And a third time:
J You didn't mention the name of Mr. Wilson's wife. You didn't mention anything to Mr. Libby whether Mr. Wilson's wife was covert.
G No
Now, about one thing, Toensing is correct. Grenier did not pass on the information that Plame was covert. If it's the fault of the CIA, though, it's not because Grenier withheld information he knew. You see, the person who told Grenier about the origin of the trip didn't tell him that Plame was covert.
J THe person you talked to gave no indication that Wilson's wife was covert. Correct?
G Yes.
To a point, Toensing is correct. Shame on Grenier for not ascertaining Valerie's exact role before he passed it on. But to suggest that Libby's briefer, knowing details about Plame, including her name, was so sloppy about informing Libby is simply not accurate. It may fit Toensing's story line, but that's a story line she invents solely by inventing the facts "she knows."
Lucky for her Waxman has left the record open so she can replace "her" facts with the ones backed up by the evidence.
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Fitz her!
TEAM FDL!!!
{{{{{{{{{{{Elizabeth Edwards & Jane}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Emptywheel!
Marcy!
This just came in from the heartland:
http://freewayblogger.blogspot.....-know.html
“Ohio and Western Pennsylvania now know how I feel.”
More like this… please.
MArcy!
So sorry this is OT, but you have got to see this:
Does RNC owned server connect missing e-mails to Ohio vote theft?
Give Toensing credit for nerve. If I had been her I would have been quiet as a mouse and only would have answered questions “yes” and “no”. She’s fighting above her weight-class now. I hope that they succed in putting th fear of God into her.
EPU’d. (I want to get this meme out. The going rate described described below tends to hold up across the board. This just happens to be a really good anecdotal exmple.)
From WaPo:
This is one of the things I find so infuriating about the Republican Party. It’s not just that they sell out the American people — bad as that is — but that they do it so fucking *cheaply*.
Big Tobacco was responsible for about $100 million in donations to Republicans. And for that $100 Million, they get back more than $100 *Billion* in reduced penalties.
What does that tell us about the Republicans? That to them, a dollar of the American people’s money is worth 1/10 of a cent in the Republicans campaign coffers. Works out to a profits cut of 00.1%
That’s right. For big business, a donation to the Republican party offers a 100,000% return on investment.
You’d think the ‘MBA President’ could at least get his own party a better piece of the cut. After all, most agents get 15%.
No wonder Wall Street brokers like the Republicans so much. They’re the cheapest whores in the world.
1/10th of a cent on the dollar.
Disgusting.
In addition:
Reduced sentence in works for Abramoff
Corn’s observations are in line with my recollection of his initial post, where I learned that Novak had outed one of our spys.
John Emerson @ 8
watching her, i couldn’t believe she agreed to participate - i would be so ashamed i’d want to hide under the table.
When is Waxman going to issue charges (or ask the DOJ) for lying to congress and obstruction of justice? And can he charge her for being a scum sucking twit just on general principle?
Heh heh, Emptywheel rips out Toenails entrails for Sam’s dog to read.
JGabriel @ 9
I have only one quibble with your point.
You are distinguishing Big Business as being separate from the Republican Party’s campaign.
They aren’t. There is no separation between the people who benefit most from this return on investment, and the Republican Party.
They aren’t “the base”; they are the Republican Party.
They got all 100,000%.
Toensing was best when she could act indignant about OJ Simpson. She should stick with that.
Marcy,
Corn’s article states, quoting Toensing:
I do know that there was this allusion by Joe Wilson that he was sent on the trip by the Vice President’s Office..
Did Toensing possibly mean illusion?
Is there any procedure for a non-client to file a complaint against a member of the bar? I doubt any of us have standing, but what about Congress, after Toensing’s testimony?
Marcy — so, do we set up a board to see how long it takes for Miss Vicky to poach your post and use it to correct her testimony?
By the way, my stop watch started at 9:00 am PDT.
;-)
Marcy,
Left you a link and the text of the letter from Novak to Newsweek a couple threads back . . . did you see it?
Sorry, OT. MSNBC waiting for Edwards remarks. Matthews up. He likes Mrs. Edwards a lot, and it’s refreshing to hear encouragement & compassion, esp from him.
Toensing had gotten so used to dealing with the Republic lapdogs from the past 2 or 3 Congresses that she obviously felt immune to the repercussions of her words. They’ve let her spout her nonsense for years without anyone calling her on it and she just forgot that there’s a new sheriff in town…
For Sunny @ 7:
Wow! That sure looks like a big stinking smoking gun, doesn’t it?
selise @ 11
Republican shills can’t feel shame — they have their sense of shame surgically removed.
OT - Abu G. isn’t quitting - he’s going on the road!… because he loves the little children.
sunny @
7
Sunny, this is not OT. Connects gwb43.com domain name to the Ohio election results via Brent Wilkes. Never OT. Smelling salts please. Seriously folks, check it out if you haven’t yet.
Got to run, but here’s the Novak letter again.
OT:
Circuit Court Reverses Phone Jamming Conviction
By Paul Kiel - March 22, 2007, 11:58 AM
www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/002840.php
Looks like James Toobin is going to walk.
What a morning, what a morning! The administration is taking a beating, folks. FDL hits it with a Christy to the Newt, a Christy to the DOJand a stunning Marcy to Toensing! The administration is staggers back from this lethal combination punch. What a fight!
Also OT, but I hadn’t seen it before and thought it was pretty cool:
C-SPAN, in response to “explosive growth of video file sharers, bloggers, and online ‘citizen journalists’,” has introduced a liberalized copyright policy to allow non-commercial copying, sharing, and posting of C-SPAN video on the Internet, with attribution.
Marcy, just wanted to note one other aspect of the INR memo with respect to Toensing’s testimony.
Toensing repeatedly testifies that the OVP and other administration officials involved had no way of knowing that Valerie Wilson’s status was classified. But didn’t the INR memo itself mark her status as secret?
Edwards coming up.
mike’s not working.
Does this mean she can be tried for lying to Congress?
OldCoastie @ 32
it must so suck to have one’s life under such a microscope.
I know nothing about Rep. Gene Taylor of Miss, but man, this is how Democrats need to talk to these bullies (i.e. republickins). He was quite polite about it considering his home was destroyed by the hurricane, and I don’t know what the hub bub was about…
Link
fractured rib, suspicious something on the right.
if noses really did grow longer when one lies, then, there would be a lot of republicans who could pole vault on their faces.
shit, cancer in the bone.
Holy Shit!!! Needs to be sent to Leahy and Waxman
Edwards says, “in the bone, not the tissue, a good thing”
OldCoastie @ 25
HA! Abu and Michael Jackson should go on tour together! First stop, Dubai.
“cancer is treatable, not curable - most patients live many years”
Edwards - “the cancer is no longer curable, but completely treatable”
I said it on the last thread, and I will say it again.
Edwards is a Man.
Steve @ 28
Not necessarily. It’s been sent back for retrial.
Isn’t it Toensing’s basic argument that the CIA should have protected Plame/Wilson’s status as a covert agent by making sure that everybody knew she was a covert agent?
Sure - I see the logic in that.
shooogarp @ 45
I agree.
twolf1 @ 44
Very true..my aunt lived with breast Ca for >25 years. It finally killed her at age 91.
dakine01 @
22
I dunno. I kinda think they’ve told so many lies that they end up believing them. If, in their point of view, facts are maleable, why not stand behind them. I bet its a huge shock with they’re faced with the notion that their silly putty facts don’t hold up under scrutiny. They REALLY don’t hold up under oath.
Elizabeth says, “low volume cancer, very lucky she cracked the rib because otherwise it might have not been noticed and they caught it early”
John - campaign goes on.
edwards - “the campaign goes on, the campaign goes on strongly”
Edwards: THE CAMPAIGN GOES ON!
Edwards: The campaign goes on
Such courageous people
emptywheel - Yesterday I asked you about a “sibel post” thinking I had read one by you elsewhere. Hours later I realized I was thinking of a post written by someone else.
Sorry about that, my bad.
Elizabeth—
“I’m actually very lucky that I cracked this rib.”
Which led to tests which found the cancer.
Edwards isn’t out, not at all…
MSNBC got suckered by someone…
For the Edwards family , much love…For bad news, it seems to be pretty good but their attitude is also remarkable.
Go Edwards!
they are going to make it… Elizabeth just needs to take really good care of herself.
They set a wonderful example. Pure honesty and grace.
Lots of good thoughts and wishes coming from this liberal to them.
(She looks so very pretty.)
So glad that all those “friends” were wrong.
Great news about Edwards, and once again I’m impressed by him being forthright about the situtaion.
JEP @ 58
i think they were suckered by politico.com
Seeing the John & Elizabeth, esp in contrast to the evil, dark gang currently in charge. What a contrast.
They have me in tears.
JEP @ 58
The Newt?
JEP @ 57
Well, from what she said, it sounds like yesterday they were worried it might be worse, so it might not have been deliberate.
What a novel concept! Helping other people!
The guy doesn’t have a chance…
/snark
Heh. Maybe he’ll end up with a longer sentence.
Go Elizabeth!
MSNBC says Edwards is suspending campaign:
Is it possible that MSNBC has this wrong?
ya know, I like John but Elizabeth is the one who really gives him legitimacy…
I think we’re saying the same thing…
MSNBC’s story is still at their website as I type. One would think they would have deleted it by now.
jayt @ 46
Toensing’s and Tom Davis’. He’s actually having some town halls next week; I hope I can go and ask him about that, and whether he’s discussed it with any of the intelligence professionals who live in his district.
shooogarp @ 45
and Elizabeth is a Woman!
Whew.
I’m on delay, but Elizabeth just said that she is very lucky. A cracked rib on her left side led to chest xrays that identified a suspicious mass on the right. That turned out to be malignant and incurable. But treatable. She’s going to follow a medical regimen and stick to her current schedule.
Apparently, as often is the case with these things, there was a great deal of uncertainty yesterday. My guess is that the msm got wind of some news when they were more worried. Or, of course, they had both stories from multiple sources and chose to run the more dramatic story.
The Oath- The Oath- only liars resist The Oath!
OMG, watch the fry-brained loonies accuse John of beating Elizabeth.
OT - story on Washington Times (yeah, I know. Sorry. Too good, though).
Iraqi colonel flees military training in Alabama
OK, I’m on board the Edwards campaign unless something proves this a bad idea or unless Gore opts in.
OldCoastie @ 72
Like any great man, there is an even greater woman behind them. I only half the man w/o my wife.
Redshift @
1
Fitzy Man may be busy in the near future. If Leahy submits subpoenas to Rove, Miers, etc, and the DC AG Taylor, a super-GOP-hack appointed sans Senate approval, refuses to act, the Senate has the right to appoint anyone they see fit to serve. I suggest Fitz be da man.
what amazingly genuine people!
Hope things work out for Elizabeth. I admire her. She’s dealing with metastasized cancer- did they mention anything about her liver?
Mack @ 84
Wow
Edwards - “the cancer is no longer curable, but completely treatable”
Please people, if you or someone you know is fighting cancer, look into complimentary treatments like homeopathy,ayurveda and yoga. They are proven to help in many ways, from reducing the side effects of chemo to actually shrinking tumors to preventing cancer in those who are predisposed to getting it.
This is worse than the plague and Europe is way ahead of us in successfully treating cancer of all types with complimentary treatments.
Sorry to be so way off topic, this is not a health forum; but this subject hits close to home.
Amen.
Elizabeth:
“The truth is what we want.”
Ya know if MSNBC didn’t spend so much time gawking at celebrities and dead white girls, they might have known enough to wait for the actual news, rather than making up their own…
rwcole @ 84
Done lots of tests and not found it elsewhere so far.
Totally bizarre–even though the news is not as bad as it might be, it’s still not good news, but it’s going to help Edwards politically–this opportunity to demonstrate real family values and an authentic voice. They both come across as very real people, very much married and very much in love. The contrast to Newt or Giuliani couldn’t be starker.
Oh, and I’m not backing any of the candidates, for a number of reasons.
OldCoastie @ 72
Absolutely. My wife and I have been having this same discussion. It’s so nice to hear her talk. It’s so….oh what’s the word….NORMAL!
I bet if she were the one running, I’d be lining up right quick (hear she’s more liberal than her husband). As is now, still undecided between Edwards and Obama. Lots ‘o time left!
Peterr @
20
Yes, thank you. Inspired me to go back and whip Novak some more, it did. Coming soon, to a blog near you.
Rev
I’m not a doctor- but that seems like good news.
Petrocelli @ 87
Are we setting up a doobie donation for Elizabeth?
Wow - I just watched a clip of a network newsperson, Harry Smith, who wasn’t reading a script and who wasn’t afraid to call BS on Tony Snow and who could actually IMPROVISE and THINK instead of just reading Karl Rove talking points from his teleprompter:
Raw Story link
If you agree, it’s VERY easy to send them feedback:
CBS link
Maybe we can finally get rid of that sappy Katie Couric.
i heard they that didn’t find much elsewhere - but didn’t say none.
rwcole @ 94
Let us hope so.
They seem quite able to handle what’s going on and will be an amazing example to set for the country.
JGabriel @
31
No.
The paragraph in which her name appears is marked secret. Though that’s not tied specifically to her name. In fact, I think that Rohn didn’t know she was covert, and therefore the S in that paragraph pertains to the meeting more generally. Note, too, that that’s not even the highest level paragraph in the letter, which it probably would have been had they known she was covert.
Which basically means they should lose their security clearance for leaking that info (cf, Armitage). But that it’s not proof they knew she was classified.
Biodun @ 74
They suck at updates, at one point yesterday the site hadn’t been updated for an hour and a half
That applies to everyone who reads Politico and believes what they say…
Cancer is the TERRORIST… Why can’t we have an all out war on the real terrorists!
^@!k(@$k($k!!!!
Eureka Springs, AR @ 103
It sure inspires me with terror.
I think putting Toensing up there was a huge tactical error for the Republicans. The correct move would have been to try to block Waxman from reading Hayden’s letter and demanding that Hayden come to testify in person. That would have stalled the hearing for a while. Instead, they let Waxman read into the record that the head of the CIA said that Plame was covert when Novak betrayed her. Then they put up an easily-refutable hack to try to tell people that the head of the CIA was wrong. Then Novak says that the CIA has been refusing to talk to Republicans about Plame’s status for years, making it look like the CIA doesn’t trust the Republicans. (I’m with them on this one. Look what happened the last time they gave the Republicans classified information about Valerie Plame.)
Why does the timing of all of this matter? Because Scooter Libby hasn’t been sentenced yet, and now all of the things he was trying to use as greymail are getting into the public record. And putting Toensing up there when they did has given Waxman all the time he needs to get even more confirmation about Plame’s status into the public record. Fitz is going to be able to stand up at Libby’s sentencing a say, “Lewis Libby was convicted of obscuring his role in the betrayal of a covert CIA operative in wartime. He deserves the maximum penalty under the law.”
On the Senate supoena hearing from TPMuckraker:
video
What they are offering is nothing, nothing, nothing
it’s on the Toesucker family crest
Often Wrong Never in Doubt
wow! Matthews waxing poetic about the Edwards!
The most potent outcome of the scoots case would be to force Ol Clusterfuck to pardon him- further weakening a shaky last two years.. Let’s hope it happens.
Petrocelli @ 87
I’m not sure Europe has the AMA to contend with. This movie “Hoxsey” covers this topic very nicely, and shows what can happen if you try to stand in the way of the money train, or in other words the medical industry.
google video
OldCoastie @ 107
Beware, he also waxes poetic about the chimperor’s “package.”
best wishes to the Edwards.
how long will it take for some heartless wingnut to say this was a staged ploy to get attention, garner sympathy, etc.? seriously, I wouldn’t put it past their ilk.
Well, Edwards already led the way in smacking down Fox. Maybe now he’s going to smackdown politico.
seriously, Matthews looks close to tears with relief - I’m guessing he is very fond of Elizabeth…
JF @ 80
Who does he think he is? Only George W Bush is allowed to flee from military training in Alabama.
Commit today to Edwards with me.
This is a man–a couple–who have the capacity to be caregivers for healing this broken country.
rwcole @ 85
No, she’s not. Metastasized means that the cancer is moving freely throughout the body and can build up multiple concentrations anywhere.
This is a *recurrence* in the bone. It appears to be very localized and not to have spread to the soft tissues. It sounds like she has a very good chance of living for a long time while treating it appropriately.
damn, beat me to it
very different energy on this one… doesn’t have his “irish up”
;-)
After today’s Novak article attack on General Hayden I’m hoping Hayden shows up at a hearing to kick Toensing around the room a bit.
OC at 114 — I have heard that most of the press corps (other than Novak, who is a smarm merchant to the core) adore her, because she is exactly who you see on television. No artifice — she just is who she is. And that HAS to be a breath of fresh air in the Beltway, doesn’t it?
ESAR @ 103– I hear you and so is AIDS, Parkinson’s, Alzheimers, SCI, and oh so many more.
but there’s a criminal in the WH who talks about the war on drugs, the “GWOT” and vetoes stem cell legislation and provides aid and comfort to big pharma and doesn’t believe in science and cuts funding for research/NIH while lying to Congress about medicare part d.
fyi– Webb coming up on cspan3 at 1pm talking about Iraq at the National Press Club.
Frank Probst @ 105
Agree with you about what they SHOULD have done. But as I pointed out earlier in the week–Waxman got the bodies to the hearing on a Friday to prevent that. Two pathetic Republicans can’t demand anything, not when they’re in the minority.
Electsion–as Boxer says–have consequences.
Every new spade of soil turned reveals the stench of six years of a rotted and diseased presidency. Americans retch at the over powering odor.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 120
More of this would be really good for the country. I think it’s called honesty.
What surprised me about the hearing is that none of the rethugs thought it was worth showing up (except Davis). WTF? Tho I souldn’t be surprised, should’ve known that as soon as Waxman hit the light switch all the cockroaches would scurry as far under cover as they could get!
I want video when KKKarl is served.
emptywheel @ 123
Yea, like J. Low Lieberman. Too bad she didn’t want Lamont there.
Ok. Thanks for responding and clearing up my misconception on that.
J
Thanks for the correction.
conniptionfit @ 126
Shays was quoted as saying he stayed away because he knew it would be biased. No shit, we won, we set the tone, get over it. What a whimp.
Sampson has a date with Leahy.
Prairie Sunshine @ 116
I am with you on this. He and Elizabeth are our only hope. F**k the DLC
Is politico the new sludge?
OT
Lamont Endorses Dodd. Makes sense. From an email I just got:
hee!– thanks OC at 132.
i think you’re right about the prognosis, but i’m quite sure you are wrong on the definition of metastasized - which means a spread of the cancer from its primary site… as opposed to recurrence at the primary site, or a localized spread at the primary site (to lymph nodes for example) which are not considered metastasis.
disclaimer - i am not an oncologist
That’s fast by some people’s standards. I was checking Rep. Don Young’s (R - AK) congressional website this morning. He hasn’t updated his issues page in eight months.
Wil @ 131
Yes, biased towards the truth. Jeezus, the various attacks on that hearing have been just pathetic, especially Novackula’s.
OldCoastie @ 132
Oh happy day! Let the games begin!!!
Waccamaw @ 134
Nope, worse. It’s a collection of all the pathetic shills who wander Washington getting leaks designed to push a distinct line. Funded, apparently, to take a conseravtive line.
Any outlet who celebrated getting Jim “Pool Boy” VandeHei was bound to suck.
I think Kyle might be a little irritated with Abu.
Christy @ 121
Elizabeth’s my friend. Your take on her is completely accurate. She is totally genuine and the couple you saw on TV is who they are.
She’s one of the most remarkable people I’ve ever met. It’s hard to believe (given our current political climate) that we could have people of their integrity and character in the WH.
Is there a specific reason he’s referred to as “Pool Boy” or does that just reflect his general character?
Forgive me if this has already been posted, but this is now on the NYT front page on their web site:
“John Edwards, the North Carolina Democrat, said today that his wife’s cancer had returned and was no longer curable, though it could be managed with treatment. But Mr. Edwards said that his bid for the presidency “goes on strongly.” “
Damn. Damn. Damn.
OldCoastie @ 142
Sam(p)son and DeLeahy: An epic tale.
OldCoastie @ 132
i think i heard leahy say (this morning during the judiciary committee meeting) that sampson volunteered to testify.
did anyone else hear this? did i hear correctly?
Mark it on the calendar. The Senate Judiciary Committee wants to hear from Kyle Sampson (aka “the fall guy”), Alberto Gonzales’ recently resigned chief of staff, at an open hearing next Thursday.
Well, at least it won’t be on a Republican weekend - ie, Friday. Maybe more than two will show up for this one. Nah, probably not. If Leahy schedules a hearing more than ten days in advance, does Westmoreland get confused?
Once the CIA decided to inform the OVP that Valerie Plame existed, it had a duty to indicate whether that information was confidential. It should not have indicated whether she was covert, or revealed anything else about her status unless specifically asked by the OVP.
For obvious reasons, NOC status, for example, is extraordinarily tightly held, even to the Director, and is available only on a need-to-know info. (The CIA briefer did inform the OVP generally that release of info about covert activity could seriously jeopardize programs and people’s lives.)
The OVP had an affirmative obligation to inquire about Ms. Plame’s status if it intended to share info about her among people with classifications lower than Libby and Cheney’s.
Its failure to do so was a SNAFU - most particularly sharing that info with a half dozen reporters - and a violation of law and agreement.
Which is why it is so reckless or intentionally harmful that the White House has not investigated the incident, reprimanded those involved, or withdrawn or modified their security clearances. As with the Plame leak itself, it not only says that the White House is above the law, it is declaring open season on national security info if it helps the Committee to Re-elect the President.
The Libby case should not be over. As was made clear in the Waxman hearings, serious matters remain uninvestigated and require immediate follow-up.
yikes! reporters now making up shit about Elizabeth’s cancer! the Edwards specifically said they didn’t find any soft tissue cancer and yet…
oh, this is going to be difficult… Elizabeth Cohn on msnbc is doing a TERRIBLE JOB!
rwcole @ 124
Well put. I’ve been gagging for 4 years now.
Thank God!
“Is there a specific reason he’s referred to as “Pool Boy” or does that just reflect his general character”
Some were suspicious that he was willing to do anything to bet a story- even screw the guy who owns the pool- but that’s just HEAR SAY!
Westmoreland isn’t allowed into Leahy’s (Senatorial) hearings. Leahy will have to be satisfied with the blathering stupidity of Jeff Sessions and JOhn Cornyn.
rwcole @ 153
thanks!
Ed*ard Teller @ 148
one good thing about having the plame hearing on friday was that c-span could carry it… on a thursday it will probably be on c-span3 (which i don’t think most cable companies offer) ‘cuz c-span will be covering the house floor and c-span2 will be covering the senate floor.
I never thought restoral of democratic checks and balances could be so entertaining!
All this fact finding is making for great, deeply satisfying reads with my morning cuppa joe.
I kinda like the thought of getting used to us needling to get the TRUTH, finally, and once and for all from that den of liars and thieves.
Waxman and Leahy - thank you for your thoroughness and SPECIAL THANK YOU for your subpoenas!!
Sampson apparently volunteered to testify shortly after his [final] resignation. I suspect the Committee has been waiting in order to fill out the witness tables.
Matthews was talking nicely about the Edwards but as usual got it wrong. He doesn’t know the difference between religious and spirtual values and he tried to make their strength about religion even though the Edwards do not
jayt @ 46
Perhaps we can term it “milk carton logic.” (I.e. just post her face & covert status on a milk carton.)
Have never read either; you’ve pretty well settled the question as to whether I ever will. Tks.
katherine graham cracker @ 159
I’ll cut him some slack today - he was speaking very emotionally and from the heart.
Pinata
Though I don’t know whether we can trust the “Sampson versus Abu G” meme. Likely, Sampson has been given fairly strict guidelines of what he can say–and if he succeeds in stemming the inquiries (ha!) then he gets a nice swank job in corporate America.
[Mod Note; the margin faerie is getting a wee bit fatigued, thanks]
Elizabeth for First Lady! Courageous, humble, honest.
And she can bring that John guy who hangs around with her.
That’s the ticket. Been spending too much time researching Don Young this morning. Must be rubbing off.
OldCoastie @ 150
are you sure? - that “Edwards specifically said they didn’t find any soft tissue cancer”. that’s not what i heard…. i heard they looked… but not that they didn’t find any (maybe a very small amount? ).
maybe i heard incorrectly? - any transcripts up yet?
Frank Probst @ 105
If the Rs were smart as well as crooks, Ds wouldn’t control congress now.
RevDeb @
81
I’ve been on board since the beginning. [My daughter interned in his Senate office in 2003.] I think he’s “real.” If the primaries go the other way, I’ll support Obama, and certainly would support Gore, but I really hope people take a long, hard look at this honest man.
PS - I too have a had child die, and I know how much it takes for a couple to stay together. For both of them to choose public service over the private life they could have says a lot to me.
Let’s not forget Mike Allen. He’s in the same smarmy category as Pool Boy.
This stupid country. Of course, everyone likes Elizabeth. She is obviously a real person. What you see is what you get. How screwed up is the political & media world when someone like Elizabeth is such a rare breed that msm notices & comments pointedly. Maybe I should just be encouraged that media hasn’t lost all ability to recognize genuine from knockoffs.
Gonzales is going to stay for the kids? Give me a break. So Alberto, why have you directed your efforts more on adult p*rn than people who prey on kids?
Didn’t Edwards get into politics to honor their son that was killed in the auto accident? Now this.
Ya gotta feel secure that his motivations are pure, and not based on his own gain.
I think the first repukelickin talking point will be that Edwards can’t be Prez because his wife could die while in office, and he’ll be too distraught to make so many “big decisions.”
Given what his family has endured already, this talking point could backfire, and Edwards will base his entire Presidency on his son and wife.
As a husband and father….well, can’t finish this thought since I’m getting too emotional thinking about it….
OldCoastie
cut Tweety some slack? OK but just this once.
Jane (nyc) @ 143
Fitz for AG under President Edwards.
I have been with Edwards since the beginning. The only way Id change is Gore
shooogarp @
82
I’ll second that - she is my strength and my inspiration. When you look a the contributors here, there must be many a proud and supportive husband who feels like us.
I too have liked Edwards from the beginning. He’s just so real. But I also like Richardson - if he runs. Gore - I wish, but I doubt it will happen.
Last point regarding the CIA’s obligation to protect Ms. Plame’s covert identity.
As has been said many times, the CIA had no obligation to assume that the White House would so badly abuse national security information as to release it to the press for partisan political reasons.
As an absolute minimum, the White House had an obligation to give the CIA “fair warning” so that operations could be closed down and people moved to safety. It is no stretch of the imagination to say that the OVP is responsible for any loss of life or destruction resulting from the outing of Brewster Jennings’ network. Which is why copies of the CIA damage report relating to BJ’s outing are among the rarest and most sought after documents in Metro DC.
I suppose after Iraq and Gitmo, the OVP would respond that, “You can’t make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.” The Ancien Regime lives. L’etat, c’est moi, dit M. Le Cheney.
FOlks, Jane’s upstairs with some words of wisdom.
Mauimom @ 169
Very sorry to hear that. Can’t even imagine.
You may be right about the technical definition of metastasis — I don’t know, I’m not an oncologist either. But the end result is pretty much the same.
Once a cancer has moved from the primary site or local area, my understanding is that it can start occurring in multiple areas throughout the body - thus the ‘meta’ prefix. So while it may not be completely accurate in the technical sense, I think it’s still a pretty good colloquial translation of the concerns inherent with a diagnosis of metastasis.
Again, this is my understanding. Perhaps someone with more experience can clarify it for us in the general audience.
You’re right, selise. The Edwards indicated a small amount was located in soft tissue. I think John’s exact words were “not much”.
“Toensing’s Little Inaccuracies”
“Dance, you fool, dance!”
Petrocelli @ 87
This is great advice for people who can afford it. I mean that sincerely. But many cannot and have to accept standard medical treatments b/c that’s the only thing insurance will pay for and they have nothing left over for anything else.
I know from experience that homeopathic remedies are very expensive and also how expensive insurance can be when you have been diagnosed with a carcinoma and have no group plan to fall back on because you can’t find a permanent job. And the cost of treatment? I won’t even go there. :(
If I remember my security rules, the highest level classification of a page pretty much covers the entire page, i.e., if the page is secret, all info is secret, if top secret then TS, and so on. TS is the highest official classificaiton but from there starts all the alphabet soup shred outs for clearances…
Of course, I may be an idiot.
Something that came up during the hearing, but haven’t seen mch of since. Whatever happened with the non-investigation of the security breach at the WH?
OT, but bugging me, does anyone know if there is a FDL or TPM type site following the FBI NSL scandal?
Help! The “o” key on my laptop at home doesn’t work. I can’t access my email because my provider has an “o” in it. Does anyone know what can be done and if I can replace it. It’s a toshiba. I’m at work now…..It sucks because I can’t even google anymore…
OldCoastie @ 132
You know, of all the sleazebags in this whole mess, Sampson is the one I come closest to feeling sorry for. (I’m still a LONG way from really feeling sorry for ANY of them, but Sampson is the one I’m closest to.) Here’s a guy who carefully orchestrates the firings of a number of prosecutors who are closing in on Republican lawbreakers. He saved a lot of people’s asses with step-by-step instructions on how to obstruct justice in a number of cases. He predicted–quite accurately–that the move would stir up a political shitstorm, and it shouldn’t be done unless everyone involved was willing to circle the wagons and ride out the uproar. The whole thing went down exactly the way he planned it, with exactly the outcomes he predicted. And yet Sampson was the first person (the only person so far, I think), to go to the woodshed for the whole affair. Sampson comes off looking like the only competent dirtbag in the bunch, and yet he’s the only one who got fired.
Brief questions for Marcy, and I’ll see if I can keep the powers separated:
Leahy - next Thursday with Sampson (and others?)
Waxman - does he have further hearings scheduled?
White House - what is the shortest time in recent history for a dispute between the WH and Congress re testimony of WH staff before Congress to work its way through the courts?
Raven @ 163
Yeah, it’s hard for them. I remember when women first started being elected and appointed to things, I thought it was great to have women in politics. Then some of them lied and cheated and stole and in general were just as big assholes and crooks as the guys.
That’s the thing about equal. Not better, not worse. Equal.
Marcy — Another possibility is that Toensing’s statements were meant as a shield for Cheney/Libby, by “proving” that no one in the WH knew of Plame’s covert status. But separate from her confusing the “briefer,” she implied more than she knew, and that’s part of the deception. All the trail testimony shows wrt to Grenier is that he did not reveal Plame’s status to Libby. Toensing infers from that that no one in the WH knew of that status, but Toensing does not know what else Libby/Cheney knew or how they found it out. Cheney already knew Plame, but not from Grenier.
Bloggers are journalists, too, by Danny Schecter & Rory O’Connor
Discusses specifically how bloggers pushed the firing of the USAs story into the mainstream media and how the msm is being forced to take them seriously! Good little clip!
punaise @ 112
The creeps were already at it on politico 2 hours ago. Sigh. Sometimes my fellow citizens really disappoint me.
JGabriel @ 181
thanks for your reply… just one more point:
of course it varies with type of cancer, but in general for breast cancer - this is NOT the case.
a localize spread (for example to lymph nodes) is not considered a metastasis and has a very different prognosis from a metastasized spread to bone.
i only mention it because there is such a different prognosis.
again the disclaimer - i am not an oncologist… and like you, hope one will chime in to correct or confirm me.
The memo was top secret. So yes–it should not have been shared (though, I’m fairly sure that Armitage hadn’t seen the memo yet when he leaked to Woodward on June 13, so he was leaking info that had been passed on orally, w/no classification, presumably). That was my point, though: while sharing it exposes Armitage to security clearance violations (and Bartlett), it does not mean he knew she was covert.
The paragraph that describes her employment was marked TS/NOFORN. To anybody with clearance, this meant she was covert and worked abroad.
ccmask @ 186
Copy and paste? At least worth a try…
Via commenter Judith at The Left Coaster
Bustednuckles @ 127
Your taste in pornography is outre’, m’dear! ;-D
Then in the normal world ALL of those idiots from Libby, Rove, Fleischer, CHENEY et al would lose their clearances and pretty much be on the street…
Ed*ard Teller @
188
Waxman doesn’t have anything on THIS scheduled. He’s waiting to hear from Josh Bolten. THough Waxman has given Condi a deadline of March 23 to start responding to his questions about Niger. So maybe COndi will get her own subpoena on Monday.
It took 3 weeks for Nixon v. US to go through, I think.
That is an amazing way to do it!! Thanks.
No. It was marked as S/NOFORN.
When does Libby get sentenced? Has he already filed an appeal?
get a ten dollar keyboard and plug it in to the laptop.
emptywheel@200- of course that was a far different court than the one we have now. Didja ever think we’d miss THOSE days??
W. Bush’s overall job approval rating and the rating of his handling of the economy have dropped from February to levels last seen in May 2006 as gasoline prices increased according to the latest survey from the American Research Group.
Among all Americans, 32% approve of the way Bush is handling his job as president and 63% disapprove. When it comes to Bush’s handling of the economy, 32% approve and 64% disapprove. In February, 39% of Americans approved of the way Bush was handling his job and 56% disapproved and 40% approved of the way Bush was handling the economy and 54% disapproved.
Among Americans registered to vote, 31% approve of the way Bush is handling his job as president and 63% disapprove. When it comes to the way Bush is handling the economy, 33% of registered voters approve of the way Bush is handling the economy and 64% disapprove
(ARG)
dakine01 @ 199
Security is a priviledge and not a right, much like a drivers license, and will be suspended pending a hearing. The agreements you sign expose you to additional laws, and you are told you should always assume the “worst” outcome because that is what you are liable for. Now, that is why the NOFORN, for grunts like me anyway, would say right away that she was an agent that worked overseas, or had contacts there. On top of that, you had to assume these countries were unfriendly, so the national security risks were highest. That is what you are responsible for, that’s what you agree to in writing, with your signature above a full set of finger, hand and palm prints.
EW, as I recall, NOFORN trumps TS…
OT - re: Abramoff getting a lighter sentence…
When/how can we get Fitz put on the Abramoff scandal as a special prosecutor?
Its only fair for Waxman to insist Toensing testify again to respond to each and every falsehood to determine in public whether she lied or whether she was “mistaken.”
Toensing also doesn’t ‘bother’ to mention that she and Novak are close personal friends. The kind of friends that go to dinner at each other’s homes!
I used to have clearances until I became too honest for the DIS.
emptywheel @
200
Did some checking. It took about a year - late July 1973 until late July 1974 - to get from Cox’s original subpoena for the WH tapes to the unanimous Supreme Court decision ordering their release.
Here’s a short version of what the Supremes determined:
The Supreme Court does have the final voice in determining constitutional questions; no person, not even the President of the United States, is completely above law; and the president cannot use executive privilege as an excuse to withhold evidence that is ‘demonstrably relevant in a criminal trial.’
emptywheel @ 164
he’s already got a new residence in the doj-legislative section in environmental division, heard it on the radio on 3-16-07
dakine01 @ 212
Ahhh, then you know how messy those ink pads are… and how uncomfortable that 4 hour poly can be…
more from wikipedia on United States vs. Richard Nixon:
Memoirs of those privy to the justices’ deliberations eventually described unusual circumstances: that the majority held the subpoena to be enforceable; that a minority of justices disagreed, but were concerned that a split decision might be claimed by Nixon to fall short of being “definitive” and thus increase the possibility of his defying the court’s authority, and that in practice the political dangers of such defiance were unacceptable; and the justices agreed upon a unanimous decision despite the diversity of their actual views, in order to reduce the likelihood of such a “constitutional crisis”.
Marcy’s right - a different court now than in 1974. Ooh boy!
Raven @ 163
He’s right. Why are we following Hillary Clinto over a cliff? It is Rove that is at the heart of this.
I said it the other day, but it bears repeating:
Gonzales may be an eneabler of evil, but that is different han being a source of evil
I want to highlight this particular section of emptywheel’s excellent post:
Boy, oh boy!
Either Grenier lied to Waxman, or Toensing not only lied, but invented a big fat nonexistent conversation between herself and Grenier to buttress the lie.
When Toensing goes back to correct her testimony, I wonder if the same media that uses her to be their “Plame expert” will mention that fact?
ccmask @ 186
USB keyboard plugged into one of your USB ports. also wireless keyboard. not too expensive (lot less than a new laptop)
Oh, my bad then. Thanks for teh fact check.
Indeed. And also how inaccurate the poly is.
ccmask @ 186
Find an -o- in the page . Copy and paste it when [as] neccessary .
Perhaps we shuld cut Victoria and Bob some slack. They are not doing this just to be nice to their friends. They have an assignment and they haven’t completed it yet. Somebody’s gonna be mad.
dakine01 @ 221
That’s what I told the guy too about those college days, fuzzy memory and all…:-)
well, file this under things I didn’t know!
“Snow: Congress doesn’t have oversight ability”
wow! anybody else unaware of this salient little fact??
what are these people smoking?
ccmask @ 186
On your way home stop by your local office or computer store and buy a cheap USB keyboard, $10-15. Just plug it into the USB port and you’re good to go.
Is the best way to get at Rove a subpoena/contempt charge (you just know he’s gonna ignore the subpoena) or IMPEACHMENT?
dang. isnt that kinda like reverse racism (or ethnocism or whatever)? defending Gonzalez ONLY because he is hispanic?
Actually with mine, he asked if I’d had any sec. violations and I said no. But since I had been present at potential violations by others, he read it as I was lying so I had to explain. Of course, when he first calibrated the machine to me with the “tell a lie on purpose” thingy, I was a text book reading of cannot tell a lie, even when directed to do so.
Didn’t she also make some gratuitous comment about her age that was also a lie? I know it’s a bit BS.. but if there is anyone who deserves to be fed it back to herself it’s this woman.
Mmmm…sort of like a samuri movie during intense sword play where there’s a pause with close up of the bad samuri’s face whose head has already been cut off but not fallen yet.
As an attorney’ should she not have reviewed all information about the case more thoroughly. before shooting off her evil mouth. She and her (cigar in face) husband are so neo-cone headed that they lash out with all of their venom & vileness, at anyone who does not fit into their mold, even if they have to make up untruths. Who’s her daddy. I’ll bet he was a piece of work. She and Joe are a perfect (Fox news) fit for each other. Ugh! That cigar smells.
debate has begun on the house supplemental funding bill for iraq war/occupation.
scheduled to be 4 hours.
on c-span now.
Marcy-
Maybe you could clarify another point I thought Ms. Toensing mischaracterized. Isn’t it the case that Scooter first learned of Plame’s identity and CIA dept affiliation from the VPOTUS (ref the famous note in his own handwriting)? We still don’t know from whence the VPOTUS got it, right?
Dog
bonkers,
Thank you for the link. I watched the entire video. Having been victimized twice in the past two years by conventional medicine, I was a receptive audience.
I do not condemn all of conventional medicine. I come from a long line of doctors and nurses. But I believe there is a tunnel vision among medical professionals which marginalizes effective treatments. Sadly, I also believe greed plays a part in which treatments are accepted by the mainstream and which are condemned as “worthless.”
Before I acknowledged my own atheism I used to say that I believed god had provided us the cure for all diseases. While I will no longer credit a deity for this, I still believe that the cure for everything is out there. We just need to find it.
Thanks again. And my heartfelt support to Elizabeth and John Edwards.
empty wheel @ 100, unless things have changed, the paragraph marked “Secret” means all information in the paragraph is secret.
Last week Christy was suggesting, apparently with a straight face, that perjury charges might be in the offing for Ms. Teensing.
Dare I mention that even if we accept the characterizations of Toensing’s statements as analyzed above, there is roughly zero chance that anyone could consider them to be material to the House Committee investigation?
And consequently, there is zero chance of a perjury charge?
Just curious as to whether folks agree with that - my text editor is not finding “perjury” anywhere in this thread just now, so I am guessing it has not been discussed.
The Christy quote is this:
Thanks.
No it doesn’t. It means something in that paragraph is TS/NOFORN. Ultimately the point is, with regards to someone in the CIA and their affiliation with the CIA, you simply SHOULD NOT make assumptions. You either KNOW that they openly work for CIA or you DON’T KNOW. If you don’t know, you clarify that point before passing their name along to uncleared folks.
[Mod Note; please don’t requote more than twice. It gives the Margin Faerie a headache. Thanks]
“…when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality - judiciously, as you will - we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.’”
Do you think Ms Toensing or anyone she represents cares about such inconsistencies? She’s gotten the story out, the Believers have used it to bolster their own positions. Compare, for instance, Mr Cheney’s unique perspective on the brilliance of our accomplishments in the middle east.
These folks understand news cycles.
Pat_AlexVA @ 238
Understood that classification levels next to paragraphs refer to the contents of that paragraph…
I am referring to the responsibility of a cleared individual who read that particular paragraph (a short one at that, IIRC) that mentions her CIA status. As I read it, the NOFORN designation was unambiguous and applied to her/CIA status. I can’t find the document now, but that doesn’t matter, because the designation refers to the entire contents of the paragraph.
Further, I wouldn’t ask my briefer to further clarify her status, or activities abroad, because I don’t have a need to know… and neither do “uncleared folk”.
Hence, my conclusion, to assume the most harmful scenario, if revealed. I assume the worst, but share that assumption with no one.
sunny @
7
Curiouser and curioser