

Just as sure as snow in January or robins in spring, the whiny children pushing the "but Clinton did it toooooo!" theme are trying to put our forty-second president's evasion of a badly-constructed perjury trap set up in the midst of a bogus lawsuit that never made it to court as somehow being much, much MUCH worse than Scooter Libby's lying under oath in order to protect himself and his bosses from feeling any sort of consequences for lying us into war and the needless, senseless killing of at least 800,000 people over the past four years.
Now as I've mentioned before, I am not a lawyer. But I lived through the 1990s and wound up learning a little bit (much of which I almost immediately forgot) about certain facets of the law — such as perjury. And guess what? Ironically, for all the people who holler "but Clinton did it too!'", Clinton's statements are most definitely not perjury, whereas the same is not true of Libby's — and might not be true of certain statements made by Victoria Toensing at the Plame hearing last Friday. Follow me past the jump and I'll explain.
The United States Code has very strict standards for what constitutes perjury. (And even stricter standards for what constitutes committing perjury while testifying for a grand jury, as Scooter Libby was charged with doing in two of the five counts against him.) In order for a given statement to be perjury, each one of the following five criteria must be met — and if any of these criteria are NOT met, it's not perjury:
1) The statement must be made under oath.
2) The statement must be material to the case at hand.
3) The statement must be known by its maker to be false.
4) The statement must be demonstrably false.
5) The statement must have been made with an intent to mislead.
Let's compare the situations of Scooter Libby, Bill Clinton, and Natasha Toensing.
#1: The statements in question by all three were uttered under oath, so the first criteria is fulfilled. So far so good.
#2: Here's where the divergence happens. Libby's and Toensing's statements were definitely material to their respective cases at hand. Clinton's statement, however, was not. Here's why: He was asked about a consensual sexual relationship with one woman (Monica Lewinsky) while he was supposed to be quizzed about an alleged sexual harrassment of another (Paula Jones).
(Brief digression here: Just how bogus was the Jones sexual harrassment suit? Well, it actually started out as a defamation suit, but was changed to a sexual-harrassment suit after Jones' string-pullers realized they couldn't sue for defamation since Clinton never talked about Jones, much "defamed" her. Also, as mentioned above, the suit never made it to court. Pity: I would have loved to have seen how the people behind the suit dealt with the embarrassing questions raised in this Salon article.)
In other words, the statement he made was to a question that had nothing to do with the case at hand – it wasn't material. (Ya wanna talk "no underlying crime", Libby defenders? I gotcher "no underlying crime" right heeeere. Not only was the question not material to the case, the case itself was found wanting and dismissed.)
The upshot: Clinton's statement is not perjury. Period. It didn't make it past the materiality test. (This is almost certainly why even the hostile Republican Senate was compelled to acquit him on this charge in the impeachment vote.)
But let's go ahead and continue the comparisons, anyway.
#3: This one is tougher for prosecutors to prove than you might think. A clever defense attorney can use all manner of techniques to defeat it, including the "Sergeant Schultz defense" (where one purports that one's high-powered client is too stupid to breathe and therefore could not have known he or she was lying) or the "Bright Shiny Object defense" (where the defense attorney tries to baffle 'em with bullcrap), without even needing to fall back on the old last-resort standby, "jury nullification" ("yes he did it but he's really a good guy and the law sucks anyway").
Patrick Fitzgerald managed to demonstrate, to the satisfaction of a DC jury, that Scooter Libby knew he was lying and that while he did it on behalf of others, that didn't mean he deserved to skate. Victoria Toensing, in the course of her misstatement fiesta last Friday (which Scarecrow and emptywheel discussed earlier today), made a great show of saying that she knew what she was talking about with regard to the Plame case as she "wrote the law" governing spies and secrecy, the Intelligence Identities Protection Act or IIPA. (As Larry Johnson noted last month, she's been making a big show of her expertise in this regard for some time, and her statements at the hearings are similar to what she has said in the past on this.) So with her own past history, she's just made it a lot more difficult to pull off any type of "Sergeant Schultz defense" against perjury charges in this situation, in my non-expert opinion.
But what about Bill Clinton, when he said that he didn't have sex with Monica Lewinsky? Well, turns out that — just like Newt Gingrich and a fair majority of college students quizzed by the Journal of the American Medical Association in the late 1990s – both he and Monica didn't consider oral sex to be the same as the sex that makes babies. In fact, in one of the many phone calls that Linda Tripp secretly taped with Monica Lewinsky, Monica tells Tripp flat out "We didn't have sex, Linda!" It didn't help that the Jones legal team, which was probably working with Ken Starr's OIC to set up their perjury trap, failed to nail down a definition of sexual relations that would be guaranteed to cover hummers.
So guess what? Even if Clinton's statement wasn't already disqualified as perjury by Criterion #2, it is by Criterion #3 — in fact, it isn't even lying under oath, as far as I can see.
#4: The problems in proving this criterion are similar to those for #3. And as with #3, Libby's and Toensing's statements meet the criterion, whereas Clinton's does not.
#5: Again, Patrick Fitzgerald did a magnificent job of demonstrating Libby's intent to mislead, and the jury agreed with Fitz' conclusions. As for Bill Clinton, this could be provable, but it doesn't matter as his statement has already failed to pass three of the other four criteria for perjury.
Now, Vicky Toensing's statements could be argued either way, but to judge from her past associations and connections, I'm guessing that somebody like Patrick Fitzgerald would probably be able to convince a jury that she knowingly made demonstrably false statements under oath with intent to mislead. He'd have a lot easier time going after her than he would have going after Bill Clinton, that's for sure. But then again, Patrick Fitzgerald would never have brought a bogus nuisance suit against Clinton in the first place, much less one that was so shoddily constructed.
A final note: The media's handling of the Paula Jones suit is the perfect answer to those who say that you can't have smoke without fire. In this case — as with pretty much all the other "Clinton scandals" — the smoke was coming out of a smoke machine with "GOP/Media Complex" stenciled on the side. And as both Atrios and Matt Stoller have noted today, the Republicans, often allied with conservative Democrats, have controlled most or all of Washington's levers of power for most of the last few decades. The Clintons, centrists though they were and are, threatened this cozy arrangement and so had to be brought to heel — hence the tremendous amount of garbage that was thrown at them. (Mind you, I personally think that the biggest actual scandal of Clinton's tenure was "welfare reform". If we're going to go after the man, go after him for that, not for bogus stories about fathering black hookers' kids and the like.)
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SWEET JANE!
whoo hoo
Today’s been a real Toensing day, hasn’t it?
I didn’t even know about all the other pieces being done on Natasha. (Not until they came out!)
PW – based on your expose none of this right winger lawyers should get paid, making you….. Fee Nix Woman.
Jane!!!
apparently Abu Gonzales doesn’t use email or have fingerprints
Phoenix Woman rising!
(is thatt redundant?)
I guess Natasha made a big impression on everyone.
The Democrats on the Senate Judiciary Committee must extract a promise from the new AG to prosecute Toensing for perjury, contempt of Congress, and lying to a Congressional Committee. No promise, no confirmation.
Among other promises they must extract, of course, but this is the OnT promise.
excelent presentation!!!! … and the penalty for starting a war under false pretenses would be … ?
I have a sort of OT question – when push comes to shove and the White House still refuses to turn over documents, witnesses, whatever; even after the SCOTUS has ruled against them and said they must comply with the law or subpoena – what happens then? Since Junior and his friends have NEVER, EVER complied or followed the law, I am not expecting them to ever change. Does the FBI get to knock down the doors? Can people be led away in handcuffs? I am trying to envision a scenario, because I do think it is coming. Like Egregious, I do have “the sight”, but perhaps not quite as clearly as she does.
There was such a contrast, to go from straight-up Valerie to this high-handed… individual, that it was literally a shock to the system.
I note the mainstream press had no idea how to handle her testimony — so by and large, they didn’t.
Jane Hamsher @
8
Who?
Gnome de Plume @ 11
That’s a very good question.
When even Bob Barr — who himself was once a US Attorney — is complaining about the authoritarianism of the Bush Junta, you think that maybe there might be some good Republicans who haven’t totally put party over country. (James Comey and Pat Fitzgerald would be two others — assuming that both are indeed Republicans; I’ve heard conflicting reports thereon.)
“I was 25 at the time…bwhahah!” Vicky I-Tsing. Knot.
Scarecrow @ 13
Our pet name for Toensing. (Her husband Joe DiGenova being “Boris”.)
punaise @ 4
OT
Punaise… I saw the discussion this morning about the origin of your screenname. I had already put some thought into this and concluded that your name reminded me of a snarky breakfast spread – not quite mayonnaise, not quite vegemite – but definitely good for ya!
…trying to put our forty-second president’s evasion of a badly-constructed perjury trap…
40 seconds? hmmm. no comment.
What’s weird is that all this noise from the right doesn’t seem to be having any effect on the press coverage.
Wurlitzer down!
But remember: it doesn’t count as lying if Republicans do it. That’s why W is supposed to pardon Libby—his outing of Valerie Plame wasn’t a crime in the first place, so of course he couldn’t possibly have lied (let alone committed actual perjury under oath) about it.
randiego @ 17
there’s Nutella’ing what you’ll come across on the internets these days… :~)
Phoenix Woman @ 12
And now that we know, from the previous post, that she wrote briefs for TradMed in the case, it’s clearer why they elected not to discuss her absurd appearance.
Over at politico, a commenter is suggesting Joe Lieberman for AG.
punaise @ 18
707
Toensing didn’t commit perjury etc. Everything in her testimony was either her opinion, her interpretation, her understanding, her memory, blah blah blah. And yes, she’s slicker than hog snot
Actually, I wanted him impeached for war crimes in Kosovo. But welfare reform works, too.
punaise @ 21
sweet!
From David Corn:
HuffPo is quoting McKlatchy as saying that Abu’s support has collapsed, and the WH is reviewing other candidates, including Chertoff and Ted Olsen. Can FDL book rooms for those confirmation hearings, pronto? I’ll head to PayPal for the Kevlar umbrellas!
So long Seedy Gonzales.
We’ll enjoy dancing on your political cadaver for the next 21 months.
Now who is going to go in and “hose down” the Justice Department?
-GSD
punaise @ 18
might explain a near-constant need…
making up for lost time.
GSD @ 30
The usual “trickle-down” Rehugs.
One reason the Clinton-Toensing-Libby comparison has such resonance for me is that Toensing and her husband Joseph DiGenova spent much time on cable TV in the late 1990s telling anyone who would listen that Bill Clinton deserved to be impeached over trying to hide his affair with Monica Lewinsky. The rallying cry of the cons at the time was “It’s not the crime, it’s the coverup!” — a tacit admission that there was no ‘there’ there, but that Clinton should have been nailed anyway.
Now the same people that one president ago were hollering “It’s not the crime, it’s the coverup!” are saying “no underlying crime”. As you might guess, this ticks me off a tad.
OfT: Somebody’s worried about that “1984″ Hillary video; I just got a Zogby interactive poll about it, moments after Countdown featured it.
Well, we can’t have that, can we? I’d like indictments and jail time but I’ll settle for disbarment and public humiliation. I’m easy.
GSD @ 30
Bush is in a terrible bind, really. He needs someone quickly confirmable who’ll keep the secrets and yet pretend to be a straight-shooter. RGJoe might be up to the task…
Bush’s proxy’s in Iraq are back to their killing ways.
Congrats George W.
Another sham trial, another corpse for the pyre.
Saddam henchman hanged.
-GSD
Phoenix Woman @ 16
Strangely enough, the freepers live blogging last Friday’s hearing at Free Republic, commonly call Ambassador Wilson “Boris,” and Valerie Plame “Natasha.” I’m sure Rocky and Bullwinkle side with our interpretation, though…
TeddySanFran @ 33
I saw that; didn’t see the connection between her “let’s have a conversation” statement and the “1984″ allusion. Seen anything on who was really behind it?
Cozumel @ 25
and almost as tasty, I’m sure.
Jane Hamsher @
8
I get the feeling she might not be representing any CIA agents after she pooh-pooed the agency as a bunch of silly willies who don’t even know what a spy is.
-GSD
She should be getting a slew of corruptocrat clients from the Chimpy Dynasty any day now.
Ed*ard Teller @ 39
Ewww, ET. I almost wish you hadn’t said that.
Lieberman is a non-starter..A*PAC won’t let him leave the Senate.
What about David Addington?
Rob Zuber @ 19
Yeah. I think that the blogosphere — the non-wingnut side of it — has finally hit a critical mass of readers to the point where we can’t be ignored.
It’s not that the reality-based community had to prove itself in terms of accuracy — we were right on Iraq, right on Social Security, right on Schiavo, right on pretty much everything, but we were still swept under the rug, in large part because we were right and they didn’t want to admit that they were wrong. Or, worse yet, WHY they were wrong. (Which in many cases turns out to be Russert’s Syndrome, or Kneepadicus Stengographica.)
But when we started pulling their readers and viewers — and their readers and viewers started to question what they were being told — they couldn’t ignore us any longer.
they’re suggesting chertoff as a possible to hose down justice
I said it out of hearing of my pet pig, Morris, so I’m not too worried.
Chertoff, the final horseman of the apocalypse.
Chimpy, Cheney, Chertoff, Condi.
Behold a pale horse.
-GSD
lolo @ 42
David Addington, scarily enough, seems to have told the God’s honest unadorned, uncomplicated truth. He’s proud of what he did and he doesn’t see any reason to hide it. I think Emptywheel talked about his Libby trial testimony at length in one of her live blogs.
Nobody died as a result of what President Clinton did or did not say. The same cannot be said for Bush. Hundreds of thousands have perished as a result of this President’s lies. Therein lies the difference. I want this man Bush, prosecuted for his heinous crimes against humanity.
Phoenix Woman, thanks for the excellent and helpful analysis!
Are any dems in on the secret AG talks I wonder? As in, who can you get approved for us?
spiderpaws @ 45
Did you mean “close” down justice? ;}
spiderpaws @ 45
You mean, like he hosed down New Orleans?
GSD @
30
Ya gotta go to wfan.com and scroll down the left column, Instant Replay, Imus in the Morning for “Alberto Gonzales” 3/19/07. Rob Bartlett’s take on the about-to-be-departed. Gone-zales doin’ it “My Way….”
punaise @ 18
That was bad, real bad
I’m in moderation oblivion..This is a repeat post to test the filter. Re: Lieberman and the AG job..AI**C won’t let him leave the Senate.
Phoenix Woman @ 32
Agreed. Exactly.
Gnome de Plume @ 50
Betcha there’s a CFL party member they’re talking to.
The BBC Defense: Buuuuut Bill Cliiiiinton! A favorite of cons everywhere.
Steve @ 42
Still–FMI–how are senatator replacements chosen? Governor selects? If so, CT has R gov.
Toensing had gotten far too used to dealing with the lapdogs and reich wingers of the previous few Congresses that she probably felt totally immune to the fact that a new sheriff is in town. None of the committee chairs in the past (since ‘94) would have dared to quesiton anything she had to say, so she probably felt that she could claim anything with impunity and not be called for her B*ll Sh*t! Oops! I think she might have discovered she’s not a queen any longer
As always … very well done Phoenix.
LHP probably isn’t lurking but I explained a little better than last week why I think Fitz still has some hole cards that he’s not showing yet – here
[I know, CS in the link has a love/hate thing with FDL but he/she does have some good ideas]
From NRO’s The Coroner:
Kyle Sampson [Rich Lowry]
Needless to say, it’s a big problem for the folks at Justice that Kyle Sampson appears to be flipping on them. But it’s not so surprising given how implausible it seems that other senior Justice officials didn’t know about Sampson’s coordination with the White House.
03/19 05:41 PM
When the wrong-wing at NRO can see the writing on the wall it’s curtains.
-GSD
AG replacement? Scooter Libby is a lawyer.
lolo @ 42
I’m thinking goat snot with a frisson of boar testes.
Perhaps I should spend less time with the Black Sheep Farm folks in the San Rafael farmers’ market.
Cause plain ‘ol indoor cats’ pee also captures the essence of Addington.
Gets all over, and keeps coming back.
Solitary confinement may be required to break the cycle.
Olberman listed Chertodd, Ted Olsen, Frances Townsend, and some black guy whose name escapes me as the potential replacements for Abu Gone-zales
The other story that’s lighting up is Cheney’s no-bid contract to Mitchell Wade of $140,000 of “computers’n’stuff,” 2 weeks before Wade used a $140,000 cashiers check to buy Duke Cunningham his boat. And Carol Lam was looking into this on the very day she was fired.
It was Wade’s very first federal contract, quite unusual for a man with a criminal record.
It does all start to tie together, doesn’t it?
Veritas78 @ 29
I’ve seen similar information from politico and CBS News. Looks like the whispering campaign has begun.
Oklahoma kiddo @
49
Thousands of innocent sperm died.
-GSD
Kida off topic, but why is Raw Atory held in such disregard?
Victoria Toensing and Joe DiGenova for Co-Attorney’s General.
-GSD
dakine01 @ 65
Larry Thompson
Steve @ 56
Depends on whether a deal can be brokered with the CT Guv. Many effective lobbies prefer spokemen whose allegiance is less obvious.
Driving to and from Anchorage today, listening to local right-wing nutcases on their AM talk programs – mostly Gonzales loving and Waxman bashing, followed by blind allegiance to the Chimp. But their callers weren’t calling in to whine about that at all. The few who did didn’t seem to get what they were talking about, mixing the Gonzales/USatty problem with the Libby trial, mixing the Libby trial with the Waxman hearing incoherently. Maybe the level of argument here has begun to reach over the intelligence of the remining core of Bush supporters. And Vickie didn’t come up.
GSD @ 63
Wow. Just. Wow.
Do you think Liberman would leave the Senate? I think he’s a power hungry weasel who ejaculates when he plays with his trump card, the threat of switching parties. As AG he would lose that, and we all how Joe likes to play with his card.
TeddySanFran @ 71
Further Larry Thompson:
Think he’s gonna want to answer any questions on that?
Millineryman @ 74
ewwww. just ewwww
kirk murphy @
65
have you checked out The Fatted Calf Charcuterie? (vegetarians, avert your eyes)
Re comment 75
Must. Purge. Image. From. Brain.
Do you wonder why my contempt for Joe Lieberman is infinite and eternal? Wonder no more. go here. Try not to get too angry.
From Teddy’s link at 72:
Am I slow? Yep.
The problem with JoeLIE taking the AG job is that he knows he would be out on the streets in less than two years. Enough to give up the remaining five-plus years of his Senate term? Perhaps not.
Phoenix Woman @ 32
Does anyone have the references for when she did this. I would love to see those come forth. Not that it will do much good exposing her hypocrisy but I would still love to throw it back at the those who think using her is anything but an embarrassment to good journalism.
dakine01 @
66
From Wikipedia:
Larry Thompson
Completely OT, but CNN.com has nothing about GonzalezGate above the fold. Nadda. Squat. On the other hand, they do have Study: Smoke wrinkles don’t stop at the face
I know nuzzzink.
neurophius @ 82
He’s incapaple of saying “no” to W.
The megalomania of J-LIE knows no bounds.
Didn’t he used to be somebody?
neurophius @
82
But what if he was promised the next SCOTUS?
Prairie Sunshine @ 86
Yes. A Democrat.
NOT photoshopped!
Story here
punaise- YGM
TeddySanFran @
72
Thanks!
Re: US Attorneys. If any of you head over to Kos tonight, Valtin has a very interesting diary on the Recommended list.
He or she has been digging around and has some thoughts on just how deep the roots go. Interesting discussion in the comments too. Sampson’s lawyer seems a little too close to the admin for comfort, for one thing.
The diary closes with the observation that a Gonzales resignation might end the scrutiny. If Valtin’s theories are right, and as others on the blogs have recently observed, not a good thing.
dakine01 @ 65
Looks like they’re floating someone. You know, like a police line-up. One they want mixed in with others ; )
neurophius @ 82
Let’s see, five plus years of cushy employment, or twenty months of being between Bush, Cheney, and the people who want to investigate them. Where would I rather be … ;)
Millineryman @ 75
He won’t leave. His Republican buddies paid good money for him to stay right where he is.
Millineryman @ 75
And he could prosecute Lamont for his $374,000 slush fund and his wife’s connections to BigPharma.
Oh, wait…
TeddySanFran @ 58
yep…u can bet your bippy JoeLies has his nose in this.
Lieberman as AG? Talk about putting a stealth fox in the hen house. Lieberman would never accept it. He would be committing political suicide, especially since he would have nowhere to go at the end of Bush’s term. Might be worth though, if he would, depending on Conn’s rules for replacing him for the balance of his term.
john in sacramento @ 90
No doubt KBR was awarded another $500 million to distribute it.
mbbsdphil @ 99
wouldn’t that be a rebu?
rebub
Phoenix Woman,
Regarding #3, you forgot one of the FDL commenters analysis on that day of the liveblogging. The I’m too important for my shirt” defense.
Was it Stephen Parish CPA?
Wil @ 70
They had a history in the past of hyping stories that turned out to be nothing. I’d say they’ve been a bit better recently, but very often their headlines falsely exaggerate the underlying story.
Without knowing a whole lot more about some of the names, my guess is Ted Olson.
Sympathetic as his wife was on the plane that hit the Pentagon.
Plus he was Solicitor General during the first term.
My $.02
Cujo359 @ 95
Exactly. He’s Senator for Life, what with the Republicans willing to pump millions of dollars into his campaign coffers as they did last year. Remember, they backed him over Lowell Weicker in 1988 — Weicker was the maverick Senator who led the moderate Republicans of 1974 into joining the Democrats on impeaching Nixon, and the conservative Nixonites who now control the GOP never ever forgave him that.
kdh @ 98
I think the question was whether there were any Democrats in on the Republican discussions. Mr. L is not “Independent”, he’s a Republican
fuck, repubRob Zuber @ 104
As bad as Drudge?
well she better get her substantial ass in gear
Ah yes . . .Subpoena Season
btw – Covington and Burling firm in link – has Kelner of NH Phone Jamming fame to hawk their services
pdf warning:
http://www.cov.com/files/Publi…..1e/704.pdf
Would JoeLIE get to vote on his own confirmation?
Terry Olson @
103
I think not, although I may have been commenting about other topics on that thread.
VG – backatcha
dakine01 @
105
Yes, any attack on him will be framed as an attack on a greiving widower…..he’s a Republican victim(sort of a Mrs. Alito with a helmut haircut), that’s means you can’t attack him.
I am sure the Jersey Girls would argue otherwise.
-GSD
Wil @ 108
No, not at all. Nothing like that. I keep the page bookmarked, but I always double check anything I read there elsewhere.
I am just dying to read this diary! Thanks for it. And now…
hi there…where is everyone? Are you fervently reading this stuff as well?
Anderson Cooper is all excited and shouting on CNN about a huge document dump, 3000 pages, sent to Capitol Hill, from DOJ and not in chronological order (what dicks!)…and Abu is in trouble.
I think someone is DESPERATE to avoid Leahy’s subpeona of KKKARL!!!!
hmmm…just hearing the breathless, excited tones of the talking heads- press corps smells blood in the water, and the WH can’t make this just go away…
I think the noose is tightening.
quick links I have so far – note how the news has been trickling out, and keeps coming out:
US NEWS
New documents, emails from DOJ
more to come…those are the most recent ones available from Google that I have been able to find
punaise @ 76
As a former vegetarian, I’m chagrined to say I subscribe to their news leter.
I don’t know if Fatted Calf directly raises the animals they sell (and no criticism intended if they don’t).
I do know that Brock and Deanna at Black Sheep only sell animals they raised themselves – on spacious land, with lots of acorns.
Deanna raises the animals that will become our meals telling them of their destiny.
(I love the Bay Area.)
Deanna and Brock also come to the market with a picture album (?sp) of their animals.
For those in the Bay Area, they are at the San Rafael, Oakland, and some additional East Bay Farmers’ Markets. (for details, their ph # is in the linky above). Bon appetit.
[And for animal rights activists - before hating me, please check with my friends who have crewed on the Sea Shepherd and destroyed facilites used to constrain wild horses (from our Federal public lands) on their way to be slaughtered for Euopean tables and horsemeat.
They’ll probably tell you that - for a lapsed vegetarian - I’m still quite ambivalent about the morality (or lack thereof) of my diet.
And even if you hate me, I’ll still be there as one of the medics for the next big round of demos - enjoying the vegan feasts from Food Not Bombs.]
Phoenix Woman @ 94
I know, he owes them big time. He’s in a very comfortable position for himself. Also, I believe he would break laws to benefit himself but he’s so narcissistic that he wouldn’t risk it for anyone else.
Cozumel @
94
We know that hope floats, so do a few other unmentionable things.
-GSD
OT, but WTF??
Iraq-bound sailors train for convoy duty in desert
By Chris Roberts / El Paso Times
‘About 440 sailors — normally serving in submariner, aviation and surface crews — have been assembled in the Navy Provisional Detainee Battalion and are heading to Iraq in a few months to work as prison guards, Barnhill said.
The sailors free up Army soldiers who normally fill those positions so the soldiers can perform other duties where their expertise is sorely needed, including combat patrols.’
Silent Patriot at C&L has Countdown’s list of AG squared replacements
Here’s a good Raw Story example right now. They have a headline that reads, “Justice official: You have no idea how bad it is“.
That really sounds interesting. But the actual quote in the story is, “You have no idea how bad it is here.“
That’s different. The quote is about the morale at the Justice Dept., not about the scandal itself.
kirk murphy @ 116
they don’t raise them, but do some fine preparations.
Rob Zuber @ 122
Gotcha
Uppity Gal,
Nothing new tonight yet bet it should be here when it is ; )
http://judiciary.house.gov/
Here’s a few names that I don’t believe I saw before.
Possible replacements for Gonzales include Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, Security and Exchange Commission chairman Chris Cox, White House anti-terrorism adviser Fran Townsend, former Deputy Attorney General Larry Thompson and former solicitor general Theodore B. Olson.
White House searching for Gonzales’ replacement, source says
Cozumel @ 125
They’ve tried to load the “second set of DOJ…” but link doesn’t work. I hope it is repaired soon.
punaise @ 121
Their Saturday morning visit to the Ferry Bldg market is closer to omnivore gustatory onanism than I ought to get.
A great reason to return the next weekend.
dakine01 @
105
I would hope the Dems in the Senate would send Ted Olson, late of the Arkansas project (and who lied about it at his confirmation hearings, thank you very much), packing before they’d let a weasel like him in the AG spot…
You Say It Phoenix Woman!
jackie @ 120
They’ve increased the force in Iraq by 20K-30K, but haven’t made the army that much bigger. The difference will be made up anywhere they can. That was the point of that Salon story a week ago. More explanation here:
http://cujo359.blogspot.com/20…..-work.html
What a Vision!
Gnome de Plume @ 11
Mutant Poodle @ 129
Not much to choose from in that crowd, is there?
Cujo359 @ 133
They need to put in another quarter and try again. LOL
Ted Olson was also Bush’s attorney in the Supreme Court coup against President Gore in 2000.
LOL
Rob Zuber @ 19
actually, they might be warmin up the ol Wurlitzer in a weak ass attempt to slime James Comey and Margolis(?)
I pretty much always think of those folks in terms of the Velociraptors testing the electric fence in Jurassic Park
THE GRAVY BOAT
Hope I’m not being redundant here, I haven’t had the time to check and see if anyone’s already posted this, but it is quite a story over at Think Progress, like a big tsunami rising out of the ocean of lies.
If it is true (seems legit, as far as that old unreliable blog reliaibility thing goes), this may be that political mushroom cloud “they” have been fearing, and we have all suspected MIGHT BE COMING for a very long time.
They really must have thought the gravy train (in this case, the gravy “boat”) would go on forever, they must not have even considered the possibility that the Dems would get the gavel…
HUBRIS!! HUBRIS!! HUBRIS!!
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/…..hite-house
“To recap, the White House awarded a one-month, $140,000 contract to an individual who never held a federal contract. Two weeks after he got paid, that same contractor used a cashier’s check for exactly that amount to buy a boat for a now-imprisoned congressman at a price that the congressman had pre-negotiated.”
Why not go with John Yoo?
AP – Saddam Hussein’s former deputy was hanged before dawn Monday for the killings of 148 Shiites, an official with the prime minister’s office said.
Now lets see… how many people have the Bush regime sent to their maker? In an unprovoked war based upon the purest of lies.
Theodore B. Olson.
Is this Ted Olson whos wife made the ‘collect call from the plane on 9/11′?
And wasn’t there a question about whether this was even possible, with the available technology at the time?
Phoenix Woman you rock:
So the upshot is to me anyway, since Vicky ToeStink meets the criteria 1 through 5, when do we get to hear the magic words:
Book ‘er Danno?
I think they may have just fixed the link. Try this:
http://judiciary.house.gov/med…..070319.pdf
The 19 at the end of the filename would seem to suggest it is today’s release.
Chertoff, what a shill. Hey, during the hearings we can ask him about Hurricanes Katrina and Rita. And the levees. Eh?
spiderpaws @ 45
Veritas, I jusyt found your previous post, sorry to repeat, but this is such a big story, I’ve been passing it around the blogs, like you have.
You scooped me here at FDL.
And isn’t that the way the blog works, huh? Now with all of us little bloggers posting and emailing this around, the blogosphere will be savvy before the newspapaers ever even print a word.
But this story is too big, even for the blogs, it willhit the MSM fan tomorrow like a busket full of manure, and the stink will be everywhere.
I think they call that “the smell of money!”
jackie @ 140
copy that
I cannot feel sorry for this man.
AP – Attorney General Alberto Gonzales’ hold on his job grew more uncertain Monday as the Senate debated removing his authority to unilaterally name U.S. attorneys and the White House said it merely hoped he would survive the tumult. Asked if Gonzales had contained the political damage from the firing of eight federal prosecutors, White House spokesman Tony Snow said, “I don’t know.”
Yep, they are now adding links to the documents. There are two links at the moment under the What’s New section in the lower left.
http://judiciary.house.gov/
nite all
left comments in the 200’s of last thread for rayne, lindy and ok, ok left one last gem at 234
john swifty, left you a challenge at 228 last thread
((((fdl pups))))
JEP @ 138
There it is. If White House purchasing rules are anything like DoD’s, there should be records of purchases of furniture that amounts to a significant portion of that $140K. There should also be records by serial number or tag number of what those pieces of furniture were and where they went. I’m betting there’s not any such thing.
Anyway, shoephone and I were speculating this morning about whether there was going to be a tie-in with Cheney and Lam’s investigations. I think you just found it.
Aaargh. My internet connection keeps going in and out, folks. If I don’t answer everything you ask, it’s because I can’t stay online long enough to type and send a post.
Looking at foreign policy in the Middle East today, can someone explain why my party, the Democratic Party, is superior in this realm?
Have no fear pups! Anderson promises us CNN is “combing through the documents”
sorry for the snark…it just struck me as, uh yeah! that would be the job of the press!
thanks everyone for the link to the pdf post; I also saw folks over at TPM Muckraker right on top of this too.
This huge doc dump is surprising…and I thought this comment by one Michael Stevens at TPM Muckraker very interesting:
“I’ve been following this pretty closely for the past month or so, but there is one fundamental question which I cannot answer.
Why is the Bush administration releasing these documents?
The documents haven’t been subpoenaed. Thus far, this document dump certainly hasn’t been in the best interests of the Bush admin. What is the upside for the Bushies to release all this stuff? My only guess at an answer is that White House council Fred Fielding told the Bushies to use the Clintonesque strategy of “quickly getting everything out there, all at once”. If that is the case, one would think Fielding wasn’t made aware of the content of those documents.
One other aspect of the document dump I’ve been unable to answer. Who is deciding which documents and e-mails are being released? Is it possible that especially damning e-mails and documents are being held back? Since there is no subpoenas, would holding back documents even be a crime? I suspect nothing short of a whistle-blower or independent special prosecutor could even determine that documents had been held back.
Posted by: Michael Stevens
Date: March 19, 2007 10:06 PM”
I will quiet down now, and see what brilliant analysis comes forth from the Lake. thanks
This new AG will be a terrific challenge for the Bush White House. They’ve never had to obtain confirmation from a Democratic Senate. So, there’s an imponderable they may be unqualified to evaluate — “can our guy get confirmed?”
Although it won’t happen, Patrick Fitzgerald would be an EXCELLENT choice as the replacement AG. Even if he’s a Republic, he sure looks to be in a minority, i.e., a Republic with a sense of ethics, right and wrong, and the law. Rather than the partisan hacks like Ashcroft and Gone-zales.
Just my $.02
TeddySanFran @ 154
That’s an excellent point. The Bushies have had such a free ride for so long now, and I think the new reality is going to slap them right across their collective faces.
ok kiddo had the number wrong, added comment at 239 after your comment
nite all, sweet spring night dreams and good things to come, cancha hear em’ comin’……….
dakine01 @ 155
Harriet Meiers? I understand she could use the work.
dakine01 @ 155
I agree on both counts – he’d be great and BushCo aren’t letting him anywhere near that office.
dakine01 @
155
Fitz is a registered NO PARTY, having mistakenly registered as an independent, then discovering Independent was an actual party.
Phoenix Woman @
14
The answer is called “impeachment.”
Bob in HI
I won’t zig the quote that Uppity Gal brought to us from TPM, but I too have been wondering about this doc dump, in the same way. Is it the Carol Lam discovery that they are trying to hide? The only other answer I have is that since Abu doesn’t do e-mail, he might be like Chimpy – he might not be able to read either.
The new AG will have to be a Senator or former Senator, to ease confirmation. No one from current or former Bush DoJ is untainted by the several scandals surrounding the department, as we saw by looking at Larry Thompson’s wiki page, which links him to the Arar horror.
The nominee must have little ambition for further office, since this is likely to be a career-ending job: appearing to clean up while simultaneously covering up the many crimes at DoJ.
Orrin Hatch?
Ultimately, yes. I guess that is the vision I am looking, hoping for, but wondering if there was anything inbetween – before that happened. Pelosi: President 2007!
JEP & others -
re: $140k for OVP furniture story
various crumbs from the Wade/Wilkes/Cunningham table have been dribbling in for some time now- and i”m not talking about hookergate either -
an old Kos diary on it
Kos
much of the info from this guy
http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/
go through his mid november through end december 05 archives – use control f for Wade and enjoy
he may be in line for an apology from those who treated him like Wayne Madsen or Jason Leopold – it was he who initially broke the office furniture story way back when
Warning ! -following these stories can become addicting :)
Stewart on with Plame hearing.
Sorry, OT, but don’t know if anyone saw the document dumps are uploading here:
http://judiciary.house.gov/
put on the coffee and have a good night!
John Danforth –
Bush 41 guy (and they always do the mopping up) has done some light smacking on 43, lots of senatorial gravitas, etc. Maybe not, but it will have to be someone w/ this profile
Schumer and Leahy both are prolly pretty steamed at Orrin for punking their asses on the rev. Patriot Act language
fresh conservative sissy-attack upstairs
Off to Aunty Lila’s for the night. We’ll watch the news and then she’ll lecture me on politics. And I’ll listen. The old girl (she’s 99) is an FDR Dem, such a rad. I suppose we’ll both go to sleep realizing we’re traitors, because we want out of Iraq and agree with nothing that Bush tells us.
NEW THREAD!
Late Nite FDL: Anatomy Of A Conservative Sissy-Attack
By Gavin M.
TeddySanFran @ 163
NO. F*CKING. WAY.
Hatch is in this up to his eyeballs; Sampson, O’Neill and Tolman are all linked directly to this motherpucker. Absolutely no way in hell should Orrin Hatch’s name EVER make it in front of the Senate for confirmation in any capacity related to the DOJ or the judiciary.
I cannot emphasize this enough.
I’m reading the documents now. There is a crapload of material in here, there are a LOT of people who are going to be scrambling tonight if they haven’t been already. If any of you have any free time to help ePluribus Media, I ask to you consider doing so now. Every single name and every single website in this document dump needs to be looked up, researched and preserved. You can bet right now as I type this that there are people scrubbing material furiously.
Holy crap. I never thought I’d see the day they’d f*cking implode like this, and this is only one department, one function.
TeddySanFran @
163
Since Hatch is still in office, it could be Alan Simpson, as he fits the “listed” criteria…
cbl @ 168
Yes. That one I can tolerate. He’s actually expressed problems with some of this administration’s ethics, if memory serves; believe he’s had an op-ed in NYT within the last two years on the subject.
Not perfect, but probably the best compromise we could expect.
Rayne @ 174
Except Danforth has Clarence Thomas to answer for…
Simpson’s off the reservation on DADT, but he’s a good choice otherwise. Although — wasn’t he quoted in one of those “Cheney’s changed so much” articles, being from Wyoming?
dakine01 @ 155
He’s not a Republican, as per Jane.
Danforth is too honest.
dakine01 @ 175
You will note my “not perfect” caveat, yes?
Can you come up with better? We’re talking about the contemporary Republican Party, one of the most corrupt organizations our country has seen next to organized crime families. Go for it, come up with another better one, because I need to stay on these documents.
I cannot confirm this, only my gut tells me this — but I think they pulled the same kind of play on Carol Lam that they pulled on us. They may have used old immigration documents to get Darryl Issa to start hounding Lam about her prosecution rate, just about the same time that the Cunningham-Wilkes-Foggo investigation was going to get interesting. Issa put the squeeze on her while the bastards were trying to cart off the goods…and they didn’t close the loop by “woodshedding” her to finish building the case against her, probably because the appointees in the DoJ spent so damned much time on reacting to the media that they didn’t do their actual jobs.
Scum. They need to be forcibly flushed out with fire hoses.
Gnome de Plume @ 162
This Administration’s entire history has been one of misdirection whenever it has started to be pinned down on something damaging. To be considering that this is yet another example of such seems not unreasonable to me, nay not at all. It would also be prudent to speculate (”It is irresponsible not to speculate” P Noonan) as to what exactly that misdirecting is being used to obscure. The Carol Lam matter certainly seems to be a good candidate for this, but does one really think that could be the only viable candidate with this bunch? I sure as heck don’t! I can also see them being willing to let out some fairly seriously damaging stuff so long as it keeps them away from the really lethal material we all know is behind their walls of secrecy. There is simply no way for them to have done as much as they have done without leaving a trail no one could fully erase, and I am certain that they would do anything to distract from something in that category coming out, and this business with the USAs is one of the central areas where I could see such a concern existing for Bushco.
These folks (GOP generally, with Bushco being the extreme example currently) are truly scary in how far they are willing to gamble/risk anything and everything with deceit and stonewalling and intimidation. They have ruled this way since 9/11/01 openly and were moving that way throughout the 90s especially regarding the Clinton witch-hunts. The question truly is how much do they believe their own spin/worldview that they publicly proclaim and how much in private are they more aware of reality? If more the former than the latter these damaging docs could simply be the result of arrogance, while if the latter could be expecting to be able to minimize the damage while using them as a firebreak from finding something far more dangerous to Bush/Rove/Cheney. The one thing I refuse to do anymore is ever take anything they do at face value since the truth being in such is so far the exception than the rule a to make winning lotto jackpots seem easy by comparison.
Cujo359 @ 150
Hey Cujo, how’s things down under?
Actually, this story’s had legs for a while, (see cbl’s post at 165) but now it seems to be something of a centipede.
It’s raining shoes…
JEP @ 179
hee, hee, hee
Okay, Darryl Issa seems to be a mule. I’ve been wondering why all of a sudden he has been all over the place. He’s out there spouting all kinds of crappola, but he will end up as another “fall guy”. What a fool.
JEP @ 181
Isn’t it though? This is something that ought to be easily investigated, at least in the sense of accounting or not accounting for the money. There really are rules that the rest of the government has to follow. Whether they can make a criminal case out of this might be another matter, but it looks like the pieces may be there.
I don’t live in Australia, if that’s what you’re referring to by “down under”. Things are fine. I’ve been trying to get a blog started, but keep getting distracted by things like this and work.
TeddySanFran @ 178
To be nominated, or to accept the nomination?
CUJO365
Oops, thought that was a photo of New Zealand I saw on your page, I musta been “skimming” again.
Wil @ 124
HuffPo is also guilty of that sometimes. I really think it is important for headlines to accurately reflect the article. It annoys me when progressive blogs hype a story with misleading headlines, because it feeds the right wing noise machine, and undercuts credibility.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 152
Because if Gore was elected in 2000, we would not have invaded Iraq. While not perfect, it is better than what the GOP offers, despite what Mr. Nader might think. The lesser of two evils, is still lesser.
359…
Geez, I finally got something right, reminds of the “maccamam” series, Waccamaw was getting a bit impatient for all of us to get the name right.
JEP @ 186
Actually, it was. There was a picture of Sydney earlier in the week, too. Somewhere in the earlier post I mentioned, somewhat jokingly, that I was searching for english-speaking countries with nice climates and sane political leaders. That’s why the caption of the New Zealand picture says something like “it’s looking better all the time”.
New Zealand, maybe, but the Aussies are led by some real Bushies, if you know what I mean.
“The bush” has many entendre’s in Australia…
Cujo359 @ 185
I actually got a chance to hear Sen. Danforth speak/talk with him a few months back. Although I did not agree with everything he said, he seemed an honorable man, and one who was distressed over the current political climate and what the Republican party had become. BTW, did you know he was also an ordained Episcopal priest? He’s someone who takes his faith seriously, as opposed to others who use it for political expediency, which I think is a point in his favor. Perhaps not my first choice, but Bush could do worse. Unfortunately, the downside would be that by contrast he would make the rest of the Bush cabal look all the worse.
Hello, anybody home?
Hey Kristine, the gang has pretty much moved upstairs.
Your argument that Clinton did not commit perjury is convincing, I always thought he just fell into a trap. I also thought he settled with an AG and that he was dis barred? If true not exactly innocent.
As far as Toensing goes, IANL, it seems she is free to argue a legal point no matter how febble and it does not matter it you see thru it? Further if she can produce something that shows that the intent was for “serve” to mean “stationed” or “reside” she suddenly becomes credible. Of course the maddening thing is she is representing herself as an expert on the law when it actually appears she is an advocate for the GOP. On corn, I think she can argue that his speculating Plame was NOC, was her point as lame as that is, but I am less sure on that point, and IANL so maybe I should be putting this as a question instead of a statement.
On Libby I always have made the Al Capone analogy myself, still it seems that everyone but Libby was smart enough to say they did not know she was covert and instead he lied. Some say he lied on purpose to become a fall guy? Still I think I read he asks another white house attorney how one would know someone was covert? Realizing he was in trouble he starting lying, when he actually did not know she was covert?
However Armitage:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P…..d_Armitage
Novak disputes Armitage’s claim that the disclosure was “inadvertent.” In a column titled The real story behind the Armitage story, Novak states: “First, Armitage did not, as he now indicates, merely pass on something he had heard and that he ‘thought’ might be so. Rather, he identified to me the CIA division where Mrs. Wilson worked, and said flatly that she recommended the mission to Niger by her husband, former Ambassador Joseph Wilson. Second, Armitage did not slip me this information as idle chitchat, as he now suggests. He made clear he considered it especially suited for my column . . . he noted that the story of Mrs. Wilson’s role fit the style of the old Evans-Novak column — implying to me it continued reporting Washington inside information.” Novak also disputes Armitage’s claim that he learned he was Novak’s “primary source” (Novak’s phrase) only after reading Novak’s October 1 column: “I believed [Washington lobbyist Kenneth Duberstein, Armitage’s close friend and political adviser] contacted me Oct. 1 because of news the weekend of Sept. 27–28 that the Justice Department was investigating the leak.
If we believe Novak over Armitage it is hard to understand the statement by Novak that Armitage was not a partison gunslinger. And the fact he disclosed it to Woodward also seems that it was not disclosed by mistake, or that he did not expect it to be published. Still I suppose Armitage could still claim he did not know she was covert?
So why was Libby, lawyer not smart enough or honest enough to claim the same. Perhaps Armitage new he could not lie his way out of it, with Novak spilling the beans, and Libby thought otherwise, or he is the fall guy, waiting to be pardoned, and rewarded with a cushy corporate job?
Because Libby’s running out the clock. He has millions of dollars of glorified hush money from BushCo, which he is using to mount appeals to keep him out of prison until after November of 2008, at which point Bush can safely pardon him without worrying that the 70-odd-percent of Americans who DON’T want Libby pardoned will take it out on the GOP at the ballot box.
That’s why the Democrats have been pressuring Bush to promise that he won’t pardon Libby. It’s a windfall for the Democrats.
One thing is possible for Armitage, by the time this started up the die had already had been cast regarding Iraq and therefore the best way for him was to maintain the wall of solidarity from that point regardless of prior position in defending the WH official line/position. After all, he and they had already shot their credibility into Iraq and were hoping that sooner or later something would turn up, he had to have *something* after all, but of course it never did. I don’t know whether I totally buy it but it does strike me as a viable explanation. Basically ass covering for something after the fact since he couldn’t change/prevent it before the fact. That I can see from almost any political person of whatever stripe to be honest. He was by that point inextricably linked with the turnout of the Iraq war by the point Plame started to come onto their radar, and he may have felt it wasn’t worth burning his conservative career over, I really do not know. His motivations do seem to be the one major inconsistency when considered because of his clear opposition to starting this war with Iraq, however all of this started after that was over and the initial military overthrow had been completed and the occupation begun. So it would be nice to be able to settle on something instead of having to wonder so as we are currently. There are many theories, some more outre than others but which one is the closest to if not precisely right, that s the question.
I do find the inconsistency between Novak’s claim of “no partisan gunslinger” in his article in 2003 yet his later explanation for how Armitage told him contradicts that an interesting point to consider. What I have never fully understood is why Novak went along with this despite the fact that he had opposed the war and was already publicly less than thrilled about some aspects of Bushco’s foreign policy. There are murky motivations underlying much of this matter and I doubt we will ever have the full story. I will be content if the main shape and key/significant details manage to emerge and be accepted as the truth by all but the fringe die-hards of any fallen focus of a cult of personality.
LS @ 183
Oh, I do hope you are right. Anything–anything!–to get of that idiot.
And I have long thought, without a smidgeon of proof, that a thorough investigation of everyone associated with the Duke Cunningham case would lead to the never-lovely Duncan Hunter. Those two are pea-brains in a pod.
It also seems whoever told Novak the front company that Plume worked for, must have known Valerie was covert?
Indictments not resignations or impeachment. Go for the throat not the groin. The punishment for treason is much worse than a slap on the wrist. It may even discourage others. By the way, the Limbaughs and O’Reilys will disappear into the night and we will suddenly enjoy the silence.
Phoenix Woman @ 14
A National Day of Truth. C’mon all you whistleblowers out there, you know how to do it…just put your lips together and blow.