

Just as sure as snow in January or robins in spring, the whiny children pushing the "but Clinton did it toooooo!" theme are trying to put our forty-second president's evasion of a badly-constructed perjury trap set up in the midst of a bogus lawsuit that never made it to court as somehow being much, much MUCH worse than Scooter Libby's lying under oath in order to protect himself and his bosses from feeling any sort of consequences for lying us into war and the needless, senseless killing of at least 800,000 people over the past four years.
Now as I've mentioned before, I am not a lawyer. But I lived through the 1990s and wound up learning a little bit (much of which I almost immediately forgot) about certain facets of the law -- such as perjury. And guess what? Ironically, for all the people who holler "but Clinton did it too!'", Clinton's statements are most definitely not perjury, whereas the same is not true of Libby's -- and might not be true of certain statements made by Victoria Toensing at the Plame hearing last Friday. Follow me past the jump and I'll explain.
The United States Code has very strict standards for what constitutes perjury. (And even stricter standards for what constitutes committing perjury while testifying for a grand jury, as Scooter Libby was charged with doing in two of the five counts against him.) In order for a given statement to be perjury, each one of the following five criteria must be met -- and if any of these criteria are NOT met, it's not perjury:
1) The statement must be made under oath.
2) The statement must be material to the case at hand.
3) The statement must be known by its maker to be false.
4) The statement must be demonstrably false.
5) The statement must have been made with an intent to mislead.
Let's compare the situations of Scooter Libby, Bill Clinton, and Natasha Toensing.
#1: The statements in question by all three were uttered under oath, so the first criteria is fulfilled. So far so good.
#2: Here's where the divergence happens. Libby's and Toensing's statements were definitely material to their respective cases at hand. Clinton's statement, however, was not. Here's why: He was asked about a consensual sexual relationship with one woman (Monica Lewinsky) while he was supposed to be quizzed about an alleged sexual harrassment of another (Paula Jones).
(Brief digression here: Just how bogus was the Jones sexual harrassment suit? Well, it actually started out as a defamation suit, but was changed to a sexual-harrassment suit after Jones' string-pullers realized they couldn't sue for defamation since Clinton never talked about Jones, much "defamed" her. Also, as mentioned above, the suit never made it to court. Pity: I would have loved to have seen how the people behind the suit dealt with the embarrassing questions raised in this Salon article.)
In other words, the statement he made was to a question that had nothing to do with the case at hand -- it wasn't material. (Ya wanna talk "no underlying crime", Libby defenders? I gotcher "no underlying crime" right heeeere. Not only was the question not material to the case, the case itself was found wanting and dismissed.)
The upshot: Clinton's statement is not perjury. Period. It didn't make it past the materiality test. (This is almost certainly why even the hostile Republican Senate was compelled to acquit him on this charge in the impeachment vote.)
But let's go ahead and continue the comparisons, anyway.
#3: This one is tougher for prosecutors to prove than you might think. A clever defense attorney can use all manner of techniques to defeat it, including the "Sergeant Schultz defense" (where one purports that one's high-powered client is too stupid to breathe and therefore could not have known he or she was lying) or the "Bright Shiny Object defense" (where the defense attorney tries to baffle 'em with bullcrap), without even needing to fall back on the old last-resort standby, "jury nullification" ("yes he did it but he's really a good guy and the law sucks anyway").
Patrick Fitzgerald managed to demonstrate, to the satisfaction of a DC jury, that Scooter Libby knew he was lying and that while he did it on behalf of others, that didn't mean he deserved to skate. Victoria Toensing, in the course of her misstatement fiesta last Friday (which Scarecrow and emptywheel discussed earlier today), made a great show of saying that she knew what she was talking about with regard to the Plame case as she "wrote the law" governing spies and secrecy, the Intelligence Identities Protection Act or IIPA. (As Larry Johnson noted last month, she's been making a big show of her expertise in this regard for some time, and her statements at the hearings are similar to what she has said in the past on this.) So with her own past history, she's just made it a lot more difficult to pull off any type of "Sergeant Schultz defense" against perjury charges in this situation, in my non-expert opinion.
But what about Bill Clinton, when he said that he didn't have sex with Monica Lewinsky? Well, turns out that -- just like Newt Gingrich and a fair majority of college students quizzed by the Journal of the American Medical Association in the late 1990s -- both he and Monica didn't consider oral sex to be the same as the sex that makes babies. In fact, in one of the many phone calls that Linda Tripp secretly taped with Monica Lewinsky, Monica tells Tripp flat out "We didn't have sex, Linda!" It didn't help that the Jones legal team, which was probably working with Ken Starr's OIC to set up their perjury trap, failed to nail down a definition of sexual relations that would be guaranteed to cover hummers.
So guess what? Even if Clinton's statement wasn't already disqualified as perjury by Criterion #2, it is by Criterion #3 -- in fact, it isn't even lying under oath, as far as I can see.
#4: The problems in proving this criterion are similar to those for #3. And as with #3, Libby's and Toensing's statements meet the criterion, whereas Clinton's does not.
#5: Again, Patrick Fitzgerald did a magnificent job of demonstrating Libby's intent to mislead, and the jury agreed with Fitz' conclusions. As for Bill Clinton, this could be provable, but it doesn't matter as his statement has already failed to pass three of the other four criteria for perjury.
Now, Vicky Toensing's statements could be argued either way, but to judge from her past associations and connections, I'm guessing that somebody like Patrick Fitzgerald would probably be able to convince a jury that she knowingly made demonstrably false statements under oath with intent to mislead. He'd have a lot easier time going after her than he would have going after Bill Clinton, that's for sure. But then again, Patrick Fitzgerald would never have brought a bogus nuisance suit against Clinton in the first place, much less one that was so shoddily constructed.
A final note: The media's handling of the Paula Jones suit is the perfect answer to those who say that you can't have smoke without fire. In this case -- as with pretty much all the other "Clinton scandals" -- the smoke was coming out of a smoke machine with "GOP/Media Complex" stenciled on the side. And as both Atrios and Matt Stoller have noted today, the Republicans, often allied with conservative Democrats, have controlled most or all of Washington's levers of power for most of the last few decades. The Clintons, centrists though they were and are, threatened this cozy arrangement and so had to be brought to heel -- hence the tremendous amount of garbage that was thrown at them. (Mind you, I personally think that the biggest actual scandal of Clinton's tenure was "welfare reform". If we're going to go after the man, go after him for that, not for bogus stories about fathering black hookers' kids and the like.)
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SWEET JANE!
whoo hoo
Today’s been a real Toensing day, hasn’t it?
I didn’t even know about all the other pieces being done on Natasha. (Not until they came out!)
PW - based on your expose none of this right winger lawyers should get paid, making you….. Fee Nix Woman.
Jane!!!
apparently Abu Gonzales doesn’t use email or have fingerprints
Phoenix Woman rising!
(is thatt redundant?)
I guess Natasha made a big impression on everyone.
The Democrats on the Senate Judiciary Committee must extract a promise from the new AG to prosecute Toensing for perjury, contempt of Congress, and lying to a Congressional Committee. No promise, no confirmation.
Among other promises they must extract, of course, but this is the OnT promise.
excelent presentation!!!! … and the penalty for starting a war under false pretenses would be … ?
I have a sort of OT question - when push comes to shove and the White House still refuses to turn over documents, witnesses, whatever; even after the SCOTUS has ruled against them and said they must comply with the law or subpoena - what happens then? Since Junior and his friends have NEVER, EVER complied or followed the law, I am not expecting them to ever change. Does the FBI get to knock down the doors? Can people be led away in handcuffs? I am trying to envision a scenario, because I do think it is coming. Like Egregious, I do have “the sight”, but perhaps not quite as clearly as she does.
There was such a contrast, to go from straight-up Valerie to this high-handed… individual, that it was literally a shock to the system.
I note the mainstream press had no idea how to handle her testimony — so by and large, they didn’t.
Jane Hamsher @
8
Who?
Gnome de Plume @ 11
That’s a very good question.
When even Bob Barr — who himself was once a US Attorney — is complaining about the authoritarianism of the Bush Junta, you think that maybe there might be some good Republicans who haven’t totally put party over country. (James Comey and Pat Fitzgerald would be two others — assuming that both are indeed Republicans; I’ve heard conflicting reports thereon.)
“I was 25 at the time…bwhahah!” Vicky I-Tsing. Knot.
Scarecrow @ 13
Our pet name for Toensing. (Her husband Joe DiGenova being “Boris”.)
punaise @ 4
OT
Punaise… I saw the discussion this morning about the origin of your screenname. I had already put some thought into this and concluded that your name reminded me of a snarky breakfast spread - not quite mayonnaise, not quite vegemite - but definitely good for ya!
…trying to put our forty-second president’s evasion of a badly-constructed perjury trap…
40 seconds? hmmm. no comment.
What’s weird is that all this noise from the right doesn’t seem to be having any effect on the press coverage.
Wurlitzer down!
But remember: it doesn’t count as lying if Republicans do it. That’s why W is supposed to pardon Libby—his outing of Valerie Plame wasn’t a crime in the first place, so of course he couldn’t possibly have lied (let alone committed actual perjury under oath) about it.
randiego @ 17
there’s Nutella’ing what you’ll come across on the internets these days… :~)
Phoenix Woman @ 12
And now that we know, from the previous post, that she wrote briefs for TradMed in the case, it’s clearer why they elected not to discuss her absurd appearance.
Over at politico, a commenter is suggesting Joe Lieberman for AG.
punaise @ 18
707
Toensing didn’t commit perjury etc. Everything in her testimony was either her opinion, her interpretation, her understanding, her memory, blah blah blah. And yes, she’s slicker than hog snot
Actually, I wanted him impeached for war crimes in Kosovo. But welfare reform works, too.
punaise @ 21
sweet!
From David Corn:
HuffPo is quoting McKlatchy as saying that Abu’s support has collapsed, and the WH is reviewing other candidates, including Chertoff and Ted Olsen. Can FDL book rooms for those confirmation hearings, pronto? I’ll head to PayPal for the Kevlar umbrellas!
So long Seedy Gonzales.
We’ll enjoy dancing on your political cadaver for the next 21 months.
Now who is going to go in and “hose down” the Justice Department?
-GSD
punaise @ 18
might explain a near-constant need…
making up for lost time.
GSD @ 30
The usual “trickle-down” Rehugs.
One reason the Clinton-Toensing-Libby comparison has such resonance for me is that Toensing and her husband Joseph DiGenova spent much time on cable TV in the late 1990s telling anyone who would listen that Bill Clinton deserved to be impeached over trying to hide his affair with Monica Lewinsky. The rallying cry of the cons at the time was “It’s not the crime, it’s the coverup!” — a tacit admission that there was no ‘there’ there, but that Clinton should have been nailed anyway.
Now the same people that one president ago were hollering “It’s not the crime, it’s the coverup!” are saying “no underlying crime”. As you might guess, this ticks me off a tad.
OfT: Somebody’s worried about that “1984″ Hillary video; I just got a Zogby interactive poll about it, moments after Countdown featured it.
Well, we can’t have that, can we? I’d like indictments and jail time but I’ll settle for disbarment and public humiliation. I’m easy.
GSD @ 30
Bush is in a terrible bind, really. He needs someone quickly confirmable who’ll keep the secrets and yet pretend to be a straight-shooter. RGJoe might be up to the task…
Bush’s proxy’s in Iraq are back to their killing ways.
Congrats George W.
Another sham trial, another corpse for the pyre.
Saddam henchman hanged.
-GSD
Phoenix Woman @ 16
Strangely enough, the freepers live blogging last Friday’s hearing at Free Republic, commonly call Ambassador Wilson “Boris,” and Valerie Plame “Natasha.” I’m sure Rocky and Bullwinkle side with our interpretation, though…
TeddySanFran @ 33
I saw that; didn’t see the connection between her “let’s have a conversation” statement and the “1984″ allusion. Seen anything on who was really behind it?
Cozumel @ 25
and almost as tasty, I’m sure.
Jane Hamsher @
8
I get the feeling she might not be representing any CIA agents after she pooh-pooed the agency as a bunch of silly willies who don’t even know what a spy is.
-GSD
She should be getting a slew of corruptocrat clients from the Chimpy Dynasty any day now.
Ed*ard Teller @ 39
Ewww, ET. I almost wish you hadn’t said that.
Lieberman is a non-starter..A*PAC won’t let him leave the Senate.
What about David Addington?
Rob Zuber @ 19
Yeah. I think that the blogosphere — the non-wingnut side of it — has finally hit a critical mass of readers to the point where we can’t be ignored.
It’s not that the reality-based community had to prove itself in terms of accuracy — we were right on Iraq, right on Social Security, right on Schiavo, right on pretty much everything, but we were still swept under the rug, in large part because we were right and they didn’t want to admit that they were wrong. Or, worse yet, WHY they were wrong. (Which in many cases turns out to be Russert’s Syndrome, or Kneepadicus Stengographica.)
But when we started pulling their readers and viewers — and their readers and viewers started to question what they were being told — they couldn’t ignore us any longer.
they’re suggesting chertoff as a possible to hose down justice
I said it out of hearing of my pet pig, Morris, so I’m not too worried.
Chertoff, the final horseman of the apocalypse.
Chimpy, Cheney, Chertoff, Condi.
Behold a pale horse.
-GSD
lolo @ 42
David Addington, scarily enough, seems to have told the God’s honest unadorned, uncomplicated truth. He’s proud of what he did and he doesn’t see any reason to hide it. I think Emptywheel talked about his Libby trial testimony at length in one of her live blogs.
Nobody died as a result of what President Clinton did or did not say. The same cannot be said for Bush. Hundreds of thousands have perished as a result of this President’s lies. Therein lies the difference. I want this man Bush, prosecuted for his heinous crimes against humanity.
Phoenix Woman, thanks for the excellent and helpful analysis!
Are any dems in on the secret AG talks I wonder? As in, who can you get approved for us?
spiderpaws @ 45
Did you mean “close” down justice? ;}
spiderpaws @ 45
You mean, like he hosed down New Orleans?
GSD @
30
Ya gotta go to wfan.com and scroll down the left column, Instant Replay, Imus in the Morning for “Alberto Gonzales” 3/19/07. Rob Bartlett’s take on the about-to-be-departed. Gone-zales doin’ it “My Way….”
punaise @ 18
That was bad, real bad
I’m in moderation oblivion..This is a repeat post to test the filter. Re: Lieberman and the AG job..AI**C won’t let him leave the Senate.
Phoenix Woman @ 32
Agreed. Exactly.
Gnome de Plume @ 50
Betcha there’s a CFL party member they’re talking to.
The BBC Defense: Buuuuut Bill Cliiiiinton! A favorite of cons everywhere.
Steve @ 42
Still–FMI–how are senatator replacements chosen? Governor selects? If so, CT has R gov.
Toensing had gotten far too used to dealing with the lapdogs and reich wingers of the previous few Congresses that she probably felt totally immune to the fact that a new sheriff is in town. None of the committee chairs in the past (since ‘94) would have dared to quesiton anything she had to say, so she probably felt that she could claim anything with impunity and not be called for her B*ll Sh*t! Oops! I think she might have discovered she’s not a queen any longer
As always … very well done Phoenix.
LHP probably isn’t lurking but I explained a little better than last week why I think Fitz still has some hole cards that he’s not showing yet - here
[I know, CS in the link has a love/hate thing with FDL but he/she does have some good ideas]
From NRO’s The Coroner:
Kyle Sampson [Rich Lowry]
Needless to say, it’s a big problem for the folks at Justice that Kyle Sampson appears to be flipping on them. But it’s not so surprising given how implausible it seems that other senior Justice officials didn’t know about Sampson’s coordination with the White House.
03/19 05:41 PM
When the wrong-wing at NRO can see the writing on the wall it’s curtains.
-GSD
AG replacement? Scooter Libby is a lawyer.
lolo @ 42
I’m thinking goat snot with a frisson of boar testes.
Perhaps I should spend less time with the Black Sheep Farm folks in the San Rafael farmers’ market.
Cause plain ‘ol indoor cats’ pee also captures the essence of Addington.
Gets all over, and keeps coming back.
Solitary confinement may be required to break the cycle.
Olberman listed Chertodd, Ted Olsen, Frances Townsend, and some black guy whose name escapes me as the potential replacements for Abu Gone-zales
The other story that’s lighting up is Cheney’s no-bid contract to Mitchell Wade of $140,000 of “computers’n’stuff,” 2 weeks before Wade used a $140,000 cashiers check to buy Duke Cunningham his boat. And Carol Lam was looking into this on the very day she was fired.
It was Wade’s very first federal contract, quite unusual for a man with a criminal record.
It does all start to tie together, doesn’t it?
Veritas78 @ 29
I’ve seen similar information from politico and CBS News. Looks like the whispering campaign has begun.
Oklahoma kiddo @
49
Thousands of innocent sperm died.
-GSD
Kida off topic, but why is Raw Atory held in such disregard?
Victoria Toensing and Joe DiGenova for Co-Attorney’s General.
-GSD
dakine01 @ 65
Larry Thompson
Steve @ 56
Depends on whether a deal can be brokered with the CT Guv. Many effective lobbies prefer spokemen whose allegiance is less obvious.
Driving to and from Anchorage today, listening to local right-wing nutcases on their AM talk programs - mostly Gonzales loving and Waxman bashing, followed by blind allegiance to the Chimp. But their callers weren’t calling in to whine about that at all. The few who did didn’t seem to get what they were talking about, mixing the Gonzales/USatty problem with the Libby trial, mixing the Libby trial with the Waxman hearing incoherently. Maybe the level of argument here has begun to reach over the intelligence of the remining core of Bush supporters. And Vickie didn’t come up.
GSD @ 63
Wow. Just. Wow.
Do you think Liberman would leave the Senate? I think he’s a power hungry weasel who ejaculates when he plays with his trump card, the threat of switching parties. As AG he would lose that, and we all how Joe likes to play with his card.
TeddySanFran @ 71
Further Larry Thompson:
Think he’s gonna want to answer any questions on that?
Millineryman @ 74
ewwww. just ewwww
kirk murphy @
65
have you checked out The Fatted Calf Charcuterie? (vegetarians, avert your eyes)
Re comment 75
Must. Purge. Image. From. Brain.
Do you wonder why my contempt for Joe Lieberman is infinite and eternal? Wonder no more. go here. Try not to get too angry.
From Teddy’s link at 72:
Am I slow? Yep.
The problem with JoeLIE taking the AG job is that he knows he would be out on the streets in less than two years. Enough to give up the remaining five-plus years of his Senate term? Perhaps not.
Phoenix Woman @ 32
Does anyone have the references for when she did this. I would love to see those come forth. Not that it will do much good exposing her hypocrisy but I would still love to throw it back at the those who think using her is anything but an embarrassment to good journalism.
dakine01 @
66
From Wikipedia:
Larry Thompson
Completely OT, but CNN.com has nothing about GonzalezGate above the fold. Nadda. Squat. On the other hand, they do have Study: Smoke wrinkles don’t stop at the face
I know nuzzzink.
neurophius @ 82
He’s incapaple of saying “no” to W.
The megalomania of J-LIE knows no bounds.
Didn’t he used to be somebody?
neurophius @
82
But what if he was promised the next SCOTUS?
Prairie Sunshine @ 86
Yes. A Democrat.
NOT photoshopped!
Story here
punaise- YGM
TeddySanFran @
72
Thanks!
Re: US Attorneys. If any of you head over to Kos tonight, Valtin has a very interesting diary on the Recommended list.
He or she has been digging around and has some thoughts on just how deep the roots go. Interesting discussion in the comments too. Sampson’s lawyer seems a little too close to the admin for comfort, for one thing.
The diary closes with the observation that a Gonzales resignation might end the scrutiny. If Valtin’s theories are right, and as others on the blogs have recently observed, not a good thing.
dakine01 @ 65
Looks like they’re floating someone. You know, like a police line-up. One they want mixed in with others ; )
neurophius @ 82
Let’s see, five plus years of cushy employment, or twenty months of being between Bush, Cheney, and the people who want to investigate them. Where would I rather be … ;)
Millineryman @ 75
He won’t leave. His Republican buddies paid good money for him to stay right where he is.
Millineryman @ 75
And he could prosecute Lamont for his $374,000 slush fund and his wife’s connections to BigPharma.
Oh, wait…
TeddySanFran @ 58
yep…u can bet your bippy JoeLies has his nose in this.
Lieberman as AG? Talk about putting a stealth fox in the hen house. Lieberman would never accept it. He would be committing political suicide, especially since he would have nowhere to go at the end of Bush’s term. Might be worth though, if he would, depending on Conn’s rules for replacing him for the balance of his term.
john in sacramento @ 90
No doubt KBR was awarded another $500 million to distribute it.
mbbsdphil @ 99
wouldn’t that be a rebu?
rebub
Phoenix Woman,
Regarding #3, you forgot one of the FDL commenters analysis on that day of the liveblogging. The I’m too important for my shirt” defense.
Was it Stephen Parish CPA?
Wil @ 70
They had a history in the past of hyping stories that turned out to be nothing. I’d say they’ve been a bit better recently, but very often their headlines falsely exaggerate the underlying story.
Without knowing a whole lot more about some of the names, my guess is Ted Olson.
Sympathetic as his wife was on the plane that hit the Pentagon.
Plus he was Solicitor General during the first term.
My $.02
Cujo359 @ 95
Exactly. He’s Senator for Life, what with the Republicans willing to pump millions of dollars into his campaign coffers as they did last year. Remember, they backed him over Lowell Weicker in 1988 — Weicker was the mav