
(One of many Al Capone mug shots.)
Maybe I woke up on the wrong side of the bed today, or maybe I've just heard the phrase "no underlying crime" one time too often, dunno. What I do know is that I am fed up with this particular brand of fresh fragrant fertilizer (ie, bovine manure).
Picture this, you are a prosecutor called to the scene of a murder. There is a dead body, there is obvious evidence of foul play; the victim has been shot. There are signs of forced entry. Based on the identity of the victim, it is likely that it’s a mob hit.
You begin the investigation. You call various mobsters into the Grand Jury. Some tell you part of the truth. Some tell you a lot of the truth. Some lie to you outright. You are pretty confident that you know who did the murder, how it was done, where the murder weapon was obtained, how (but maybe not where) the murder weapon was disposed of and who all the co-conspirators are.
So far, so good.
However, because some of the witnesses in the Grand Jury (G/J) told only part of the truth and because some of the witnesses in the G/J just made stuff up, you do not have all the admissible evidence you need to be confident of conviction.
But you do have evidence of tax evasion by one of the main co-conspirators. Evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. And it’s an open and shut case. What do you do? Do you ignore the tax evasion because it’s not a murder charge? Do you say in you best spoiled brat whiney voice "I want to get the bad man for murder cause that's so much sexier than boring old stinky tax evasion!!! Wah !! wah!!" ?
Or do you look at the facts you know you can get admitted into evidence, say "well, this adds up to a prosecutable crime and I am a prosecutor and this is my job" and suck it up and do your duty?
Ask the guys who got Al Capone.
Can I tell you how often tax evasion is a fallback strategy for prosecution major drug traffickers? I worked on a case once where the drug trafficker and his wife showed a total combined income of about $20 grand a year and when I got done going through the receipts and checks for the vet bills, feed bills and farrier bills for her horses, they where almost $30K and that was before they paid the mortgage (nice house) or bought a single grocery – did I mention they had a Jag? Nope, couldn’t make a narcotics case, so they went down for tax fraud. BUT it broke up his narcotics ring and there were lots of lovely little spin off narcotics cases that happened as the drug ring unraveled and everybody in their network began turning on each other.
So, I ask you: Is it better to put a man who you know has committed lots of crimes in jail for a subset of crimes that you know you can convict him of, or let him walk because you may not have enough admissible evidence to convict him today of the most serious of those crimes?
You know, until the Statute of Limitations runs out, conviction today of "crime A" does not preclude conviction tomorrow of "crime B." If any new evidence comes to light? Lots of possibilities suddenly open up, don't they? Bottom line, at no point in the tax evasion case would anyone be silly enough to suggest that there had never been a murder in the first place.
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WHOO-HOOOOOO!!
BOO.
YAH.
Dick Cheney Controls Tim Russert.
Waxman! (Madness, madness!)
[I let TRex win]
Fitz!
Looseheadprop!!
JUSTICE!!!
Let’s take up a collection to get a copy of this to David Broder, maybe blocked out in big, brightly colored letters so it gets his attention. I don’t think he understands this simple concept.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..48_pf.html
Broder’s and Hiatt’s columns today were glorious in their awfulness.
Better journalists please.
Capone?! Are you sure that isn’t a young Robert Novak?
Watching Mtp this morning, first impressions:
Prime evidence of why Matalin knew that Timmeh would be the perfect tool for pushing the Plame leak.
In the contest of who’s more of a self-satisfied smug in his own well-cushionedness self, Timmeh and Richard Perle are two of a kind.
Except Perle is the WAR criminal.
And the only difference between Delay’s book deal and O.J.’s is the body count.
Sestak and Andrews — solid, intelligent, concerned for our troops. Qualities the Rethugs hate and don’t understand.
another term I could do without is, “at the pleasure of the president”
it’s gettin’ on my nerves.
it’s even simpler then this looseness of head props
suppose you get a conviction of someone for murder but there is no underlying crime that caused that murder
does that mean the person should have never been charged with murder simply because there was no crime that made the murderer commit murder?
of course not
keeping a prosecuter from finding the truth is a crime, a serious crime and I can’t believe anyone thinks there needs to be a beginning crime before someone can be prosecuted for the crime they committed
I’m still frosted that the MSM has not picked up on the incredible line from the Waxman hearing that the White House will not investigate a huge security leak if court proceedings are underway, and if the prosecutor can’t find material to gdet a grand jury to indict then, well, too bad, there’s nothing that the WH can do. Wake up, you dolts!
BTW, who was Al’s barber? I like those little tufty things over the ear.
Great post as per usual lhp, thanks. In a distantly related way, I think this is the way we have to go after all the wingnut welfare sheltered by fraudulent 501c(3) articles of incorporation. For the legal eagles out there, the Federal False Claims Act may be a spring board. IANAL.
Jane Hamsher @ 6
The pithy analogy I put up on my blog regarding Broder complaining about Republicans having to stop breaking laws now is the following.
The Capone pic also looks an awful like Richard Perle.
Jane Hamsher @ 6
What on earth is he smoking?
EPU’d. Pet people, check that link again, even if you have already checked it. Some new brands have been added since yesterday. Link. I think I’m going to throw up.
Great to see you Jane!!
How is it that Armitage is constantly said to be not a friend of Bushco? Isn’t he one of the original PNACs?
Trex gets the zed! ;)
OldCoastie @ 10
Have you seen this Jon Stewart on “At The Pleaseure of the President”?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR8gU5YJTgE
Great analogy!
Hugs to Jane!
Oh, is Adie here this morning?
AZ Matt, you are right on, the resemblance is uncanny. Novak’s probably suffering from the Syph just like Big Al.
I think it’s worse than that. To follow Broder’s logic, if the prosecutor ends up not indicting anyone for the murder, there was no murder in the first place.
Has he never heard of an unsolved crime?
Good Morning lhp and firedogs,
kinda like putting pedophiles away for improper use of the mails . . .
cbl @ 24
Ah, the hidden ironies of homonyms.
At the pleasure of the President…does that mean Fredo can ask Abu for a lapper? Is there a brass pole in the the Oval Office?
apparently, he and Toensing went in on a quantity
OldCoastie @ 10
If I have time, I may get to that one later this week. They are misusing the phrase. The aprt that kills me is even the AS’s don’t seem to see the mistake
No underlying crime! Why isn’t Scooter, Novak and Chenny being charged with outing Valerie Palme TO OUR ENEMIES as well as the press as a spy. Outing OUR SPY DURING WARTIME IS TREASON PUNISHABLE BY THE DEATH PENALTY. Didn’t the Rosenbergs get juiced for treason? Has their been a change in the law? Is their a “special law” just for bushies? Or is the MSM so afraid of “loosing access” that they can’t even consider the thought of asking bush something so rude!
http://origin.theonion.com/content/node/37422
This latest Broder atrocity is reminiscent of an Onion advice column, “Ask a Faulkerian Idiot Man-Child.” The sad part is that, unlike the onion, I don’t think Broder is aiming at satire.
http://origin.theonion.com/content/node/37422
TRex at 8:19 am
Thanks TRex, if you had not pointed it out, I would have missed it. Major props to cbl.
John Casper @ 31
I am on permanent pun-watch, for better or worse.
holy crow, fox is actually presenting the other side of the story, I got this from think progress;
on fox!
forgive me while I go back to dreaming
John Casper @ 13
I am very familiar with Qui Tam.. It’s a non -starter under this AG, though. Great cases that agents and AUSAS’s are all fired up about are being declined. Do NOT get me started or I will be foaming at he mouth all day.
John Casper,
not vitally important to our discussion here, but did you happen to catch that ‘coincidence’ on budgetary constraints I posted downstairs ?
lhp, I’m not trying to lead you some place you don’t wish to be….
but when it would be possible. I’d love to know more about how the AG can limit private citizens’ filings under the FCA.
I’m not disputing your legal expertise, merely trying to add to my meagre non-attorney comprehension.
Old Coastie #10
I agree. It’s so obviously a “talking-point” (I hate that one, too) to obfuscate the criminality that lurks beneath the surface. Moreover, it has a monarchical ring to it that really grates me. It’s as if the fucking fool had some integrity and deserved respect.
(ps- I fished on both coasts- ME & WA. where’re you?)
GWB– “Why? Because it pleases me.”
barrelhse – I was working out of Boston and So. Maine (back in the day)
I have to post this before I go;
get ready for an onsloaught next week, it seems Iraqi’s don’t think there is a civil war and the majority think it’s better then under sadam
we’re gonna get it from the nutz tomorrow so be ready
here’s the link
see all L8ter
Here you all were, upstairs at the party. *sniff*
gm all
did anyone just see the faux news morning show? brit hume’s face was priceless as he tried to use the same tired spin on the testimony valerie gave on friday.
on the other hand, WILL SOMEONE PLEASE SUPPLY JUAN WILLIAMS WITH MORE & BETTER FACTS!?!?
please juan – if you’re reading this, much as i appreciate your attempt to balance the scales on faux news – you need to be better equipted w/ the facts if you’re going to discuss this case.
case in point: your inability to counter the assertion made over & over on faux that ms plame “sent” her husband to niger. please review her testimony from friday. she explained step by step as to how it came to be that joe wilson got sent on that mission.
oh & juan, that memo brit hume referred to which he stated “proved” ms. plame-wilson sent joe wilson, it was also thoroughly described during her testimony. chairman waxman has requested a copy to become part of the record. i’m sure it will be available to the public this week.
there were 1 or 2 other quick points you could have made to get the real facts out about the case on the panel this morning – but i won’t hold those against you, because i know once you are better educated about the case, (you should come to firedoglake on a regular basis – or read marcy wheeler’s book advertised on this site), you will get better at inserting the true facts during your discussions on faux news.
thanks again for all you try to do on faux news – its a dirty job but someone’s got to do it. i hope this helps.
best~
cc:
http://www.npr.org/juanwilliams
TV Notice.
I just saw a notice on CSPAN that they will be re-airing at least part of their Valerie Plame testimony coverage beginning at 3:40 ET this afternoon.
cbl @
35
Yes cbl and your information was much more helpful and specific than mine below.
perris @
40
Suddenly polls take on great importance to the party that doesn’t believe their president should be responsive to the wills and wishes of his own constituents.
-GSD
The Republicans shouldn’t be so quick to push the “no underlying crime” spiel.
Remember, the testimony for which they impeached Clinton was given in the course of a lawsuit that never made it to court as the judge dismissed it. And unlike with the Libby testimony, the questions Clinton was made to answer had nothing to do with the matter for which he was allegedly being sued, so it doesn’t even meet the materiality requirement for a statement to be perjury.
Hi Phoenix Woman -
thanks again for Friday night Goddess blogging – you rawk!
(and FWIW – I regret some of the commenters were unable to appreciate what you had created for us. Their loss.)
Bright blessings and happy (late) solstice!
No mention of Valerie on This Week. Cornyn is warning that Democrats are out to get Rove and Gonzales, it’s a political witch hunt.
Yeah, well. We know all about political witch hunts. B*tch.
Grr.
By the way, it was refreshing to see Armchair General’s Delay and Perle swatting down the myths and lies of some silly retired Vice Admiral named Sestak.
General Perle served in the Great Lewinsky Wars of the 1990’s and General Delay was victorious in the 20 Years Texas Cockraoch Wars in 60’s and 70’s.
-GSD
OT- Brzezinski just on CNN Late Edition, cutting through the thick layer of crap Hadley had just laid over the Iraq situation.
Brzezinski always makes so much sense to me; this morning he’s sharper than ever…Next up- military panel to discuss the surge, panel includes Pat Lang among others.
Just in case anyone wants to know the cases of voter fraud in NM that were investigated. And found to have no basis, or no reason to prosecute, or no evidence, etc. etc.
One charge involved the registration of an underage person. Someone managed to register a 13-yr old. Who clearly would not have been able to vote. On sight. But no criminality was found. Only an over-zealous registrar, paid by the voter registration forms produced. The Repugs tried to make a federal case, but it did not pan out.
The other charge was a lone Repug woman voter who claimed that someone else had voted in her place, using her name. She was denied her opportunity to vote. Of course there was no evidence, just her word. Maybe it actually happened this once. They tried to make a federal case of this as well. Did not pan out.
Of course, this all led to voter ID laws, a Repug favorite. The ACLU managed to gain some traction here in NM and had the law thrown out. It was actually just a city law, for Albuquerque.
And, of course, there was no prosecution for the thousands of lost votes and over votes. As if that would be any concern of the Repugs. Who found nothing but celebration in not counting votes. But we do have paper ballots in NM now.
And that is thanks largely to Jerry Ortiz y Pino. Who also introduced the impeachment resolution that failed in 2007.
kirk murphy @ 47
Hey, Kirkster, that wasn’t me — that was Chicago Dyke who did the goddess post. But thanks for the kind words anyway!
RagingGurrl @ 48
You mean John Box Turtle Cornyn?
OT/…I see this Sunday’s discredited lying scumbag that Timmeh rattled in our faces was the still-floating Richard Perle. Thanks Tim. Matalin was right, no?
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 53
but sen lehey did such a supurb job of quiet smackdown (was that a cheshire cat smile or what!), that i didn’t mind cornyn’s feeble attempt to tow the party line
Phoenix Woman @ 52
PW, kind words for you – and Chicago Dyke – are always a pleasure.
And how embarrassing – I can’t keep my FDL main posters straight without a program.
No more blogging before morning stimulants!
(my cerebral cortex is – of course – blameless. or perhaps not.)
This “no underlying crime” shit is my favorite piece of hand-flapping these days, because the response “Well then Scooter must feel pretty stupid, getting convicted for lying about nothing” shuts them up nicely.
Phoenix Woman at 8:34 am
Absolutely correct. They are using all of Clinton’s sound bytes about consensual sex to defend treason.
OT, lhp, your prior Insta Declassification and Other Bedtime Stories was another superb post. Anyone can confuse us. It takes somebody really smart, to make things clear. It’s what I love about FDL posts.
Thank You!
I have been using the example of finding a dead body, obviously a homicide, yet the evidence is insufficient to lead to someone being charged, therefore by the no underlying crime theory of law there was no homicide because no one was charged notwithstanding the clear evidence of homicide by the dead body for some time now, most recently at Political Animal blog at The Washington Monthly to underscore how vacuous and nonsensical this spin always was/is. With the Libby convictions I started adding about how when one of the witnesses/potential suspects is questioned by the law and grand jury and lies and is caught at it by prosecution and conviction by a jury of peers and this is the only result of the investigation until it goes inactive and becomes a “cold case” does not change the fact a murder had happened even though no one is charged with the homicide while someone is convicted of perjury and obstruction from the homicide investigation.
This has been one of the most maddeningly annoying pieces of spin/deception surrounding this entire case. We know the crime happened, Plame was betrayed and exposed along with her networks and every operative that worked with the BJ&a cover as well as their networks with her outing. The fact that no one has been charged for it does not change that fact, any more than when a homicide investigation results in no charges for the homicide that somehow that meant no homicide ever occurred in the first place. This is a very useful post; I have it bookmarked for future reference.
The Rethugs and their screaming Harpie chorus amplified by their mighty Wurlitzer will continue to spew falsehoods, misinformation, and point to all kinds of bright shiny objects in their quest to hold onto power.
We now have our own Wurlitzer that is gaining strength every day. The MSM is sloooooowwwwwwlllly rising from its 6 year slumber (nice piece in LA Times about Josh’s TPM site and great work on US attorney-gate) although fossils like Broder (who plays a liberal on Timmeh’s show) continue to blather on and on about the shrill lefties who just won’t leave W and his criminal cabal alone.
In the words of TRex we need to ATTAAACK ATTTAAACK AATTTAAACK!!
In the words of Jim Valvano:
“Don’t give up, don’t give up, don’t EVER give up”
And we won’t.
I’m not very smart, because I can’t really grasp the Republican take on this. I watched the hearings the other day, and their stance seemed to be this: it’s bad to out an undercover operative, except she wasn’t undercover. Even if she was, she’s a Democrat and fair game. In all probability, she outed herself, or at least the CIA allowed it to happen. There was no underlying crime, because everyone does it anyway.
Yeah. That’s has all the internal consistency of a tornado over a hog waste lagoon.
Nice post, lhp.
Maybe we need a contest for the best apology to Karl Rove.
e.g., Sir, please accept my apologies for ever doubting you were a political genius. No one but you could have guided this President to a JAR of 30%, alienated more Americans and former allies or convinced the world that the US is an international pariah. Kudos.
Educated Plaintiff @ 55
I would’ve liked Leahy to have punched back a bit harder – But George keep interrupting him. So Leahy just smiled.
‘morning, tommy yum – what’s for breakfast?
Has anyone else thought about the irony. Bush had 80% of the USA’s in the bag and yet his party was so damn sleazy and corrupt that they still flooded the courts with criminal cases these past few years.
-GSD
Yep, the underlying crime is the occupation of Iraq.
John Casper @ 58
John, all one has to do is to contrast the case against Libby with the Jones bogosity (Google “james retter jones clinton” to get to a very good article on the Jones case) to see just how ridiculous the “no underlying crime” idiots are being.
My goodness Britt “I love my dead gay son” Hume is such a hack.
He was even worse than usual discussing the Plame case today. What is wrong with that man?
His new theory is that Armitage leaked first, so it doesn’t count if anybody else leaked too. His second theory was that since Fitzgerald investigated, Bush’s promise to investigate leaks doesn’t matter.
Educated Plaintiff @ 42
I saw the segment. It’s true that Juan didn’t counter every falsehood by Hume, but I’m not sure anyone could do that. Hume was at his dishonest worst, and Kristol was there to interrupt Juan whenever he tried to correct the record. It is a stacked panel.
OldCoastie @ 64
Green & Black’s chocolate bars with almonds.
Trust me.
kirk murphy @ 36
No he can’t stop you from filing. I’m not being clear. Usually when somebody brings a Qui Tam case under the False Claims Act, the case is going to require more money to investigate than that person can afford, and often will require the power of the Grand Jury subpeona to get the evidence needed.
It is very rare that a private citizen has the money and expertise and the luck to be able to pull together all the evidence necessary without GJ authority.
(My law partner and I did a quasi criminal case once using only the tools of civil process and pulled it off. That was so rare that newspapers were running multi part series on it, 60 Minutes and 20-20 did pieces on it–because it is so so rare that the stars line up that way for you)
Normally, a Qui Tam plaintiff puts together enough info the make the bare bones of a case an the Qui Tam complaint is filed under seal and the US attorney gets a period of time to review and decide if the USAO wants to prosecute in house. THAT IS YOUR GOAL AS A QUI TAM PLAINTIFF!
In the old day, when these decisions were not politcal, if a USAO declined the prosecution it was a signal that they did not think the case was very strong. The Qui Tam plaintiff was then able to continue the case on his own, but the judge in the case would get the message that DOJ thought the cae wasn’t winnable and often the case dies on defendant’s motion ot dismiss.
I’m not saying that no Qui Tam plaintiffs have ever prevailed after DOJ declined to take the case, they have. But these too, are vary rare and usually it was the result of poor communication between an unsophisticated Qui TAm plaintiff and the AUSA reviewing the case, resulting in forehead smacking at DOJ when they finally relized what this guy had been trying to tell them all along.
I have had a wonderful, cheap to investigate, open and shut to prove medicade Qui Tam where the agents were fighting over who would get to be lead agent and senior people in the relevant USAO were hugging me and calling me a genious and we were already planning what the Law Review article we were gonna write about it would cover, declined.
Considering that the USAO had the review period renewed and extended to almost 2 years, I can only assume that there was a lot of infighting and memo writing trying to get permission to take the case, but I don’t know that for a fact, it’s just the only guess that makes sense.
You guys have no idea how politicized DOJ really is. I have a very good sense of how much money the targets of my investigation spent on lobbying fees during that review period.
It just sickening.
yeah and then did he talk about how
John Cornyn: Concern Troll
raging gurl @63
“I would’ve liked Leahy to have punched back a bit harder – But George keep interrupting him. So Leahy just smiled.”
george is horribly impolite at cutting people off – but i still think leahy made his point solidly. he also was able to say “i’m the chairman of this committee & i will decide”. gosh i loved that
This is your brain on drugs “These and other publications owe Rove an apology”
This is what drugs do to your integrity and creditbility “Wilson’s claim in a New York Times op-ed about his memo on the supposed Iraqi purchase of yellow cake uranium” Which turned out to be a complete lie by the White House Broder being selective of the truth is a common characteristic of ussers
“no one behaved well in the whole mess not Wilson, not Libby, not special prosecuter Patrick Fitzgerald” umm? Wilson told the truth about the White House lying, I agree about Libby, but Fitz? come on! Fitz found Libby guilty of Lying! Because of Scooter’s Lying Fitz’s investigation into who LEAKED VALERIE’S NAME could not go forward. Oh for the days when we could torture people accused of lying to get them to talk! (I suggest we give Scooter 10 min of the Kahlid Sheik Mohammed treatment). Broder living in an imaginary drug inducded dreamworld complely removed from reality indictaes your in my opinion NUTS!
DEAN BRODER’S DRUG OF CHOICE THAT HAS BROUGHT HIM TO SUCH RUIN? That most insidous corrupter of morality, the Jones with the most Shakes, Dr Feelgood’s Fav WHITE HOUSE ACCESS!
At the risk of asking a question the answer to which has already been discussed at length….well, if the wingnuts are claiming that Fitz didn’t make this an IIPA case because Ms. Plame’s status might not meet the law’s specific definition of “covert,” then is there some other law that got broken or non-disclosure agreement that was violated by revealing her employment given that it was at least somewhat classified?
looseheadprop @ 71
Did you see Dershowitz’ call to break up the DOJ?
Wondered what you made of it.
The underlying crime is but one of many cards in the house of cards which will collapse is anyone of the many many many crimes is copped to. These thungs will ignore the law re write the law, and use any form of obfusgation to avoid the law… except when they want to hound someone on the other side.
If they’re republican… there’s criminal behavior close by. You can bank on it.
oh, lordy…….another Grimm tale. Although, lhp, there’s more than enough for you to match & exceed the originals. ;-)
cbl @ 72
When you have bad witches, witch hunts are justified.
looseheadprop @
34
But why not, LHP, you’re so cute when you foam at the mouth!!
scarecrow@69
“I saw the segment. It’s true that Juan didn’t counter every falsehood by Hume, but I’m not sure anyone could do that. Hume was at his dishonest worst, and Kristol was there to interrupt Juan whenever he tried to correct the record. It is a stacked panel.”
yes – thats why i took the tact of trying to educate rather then admonishing williams.
That article by Dean Broder is from 2006.
-GSD
lison gare @ 75
That’s the entire “underlying crime” obstructed by Libby et al.
Had Libby not perjured himself, made false claims or obstructed justice, there would likely be prosecutions on the underlying crime.
edit: I should also add, though, that greymail was a considerable barrier to prosecution; how would Fitz prosecute without getting snowed under with classified material that couldn’t be used, to the point where national security would be used as a claim for the purposes of shutting down any further efforts?
[cue emptywheel…]
Tommy Yum
You gotta give spew alert!
There is Earl Grey all over my laptop now!
Laughing myself silly
Tommy Yum– How did your solo show go the other night? Appreciative audience?
“Former Republican congressman Rick White, one of three candidates the Republicans have submitted to replace John McKay as U.S. attorney for Western Washington, cannot practice law in the state.”
Some have deemed it a “Hackocaracy.”
It would be nice to lay out all the opportunities we have to shut this administration down if not outright remove them from office. We could prevent any further damage to our country and the world if we set them so firmly into damage control that they could do nothing but cover their asses.
We’re close to that point with the dismissed USA stories, but not quite there.
lison gare @ 75
Many of us suspect that is true. However, I thinkFitz’s problem was having a prosecutable case AFTER all the grey mail evidence is subtracted from it.
Rayne @ 76
No! do you have a link? When? Where?
looseheadprop @ 90
At your pleasure. Heh.
Too bad Broder didn’t get one of those marvelous aging portraits of himself to go up in the attic when he signed his contract with ComPost, Mephistopheles Graham laughing maniacally while looking over Broder’s shaky, bony shoulder, the bloody signature turning into flames and smelling of sulphur and urine.
Well, I guess it doesn’t even really matter if you’re a bond fide lawyer in good standing when a Bushie wants to appoint you to replace an ousted lawyer in good standing. The law be damned!!
Educated Plaintiff @ 42
I’m afraid that Juan Williams succumbed to the Stockholm Syndrome long ago.
From the Dershowitz piece at HuffPo
We already have 93 of them. They are called United States Attorneys. Duh!
And at least 8 (though I submitt that ove hte entire Shrubya crime regime the number is higher) got fired for being non-political.
And if the Senate is gonna rubber stamp, it doen’t matter. Nothing in dershowit’s proposal would have prevented Shrub from appointing ABU to this “non-politcal” job.
In short, I dismiss it out of hand.
OT..but give some thoughts for Steve Gilliard today..He is having a rough time, following his semi-urgent heart surgery. I really miss his perspective on what is going on around us.
how about chuck schumer on meet the press discussing the US atty firings/gonzales resignation. he named 3 people – (didn’t recognize any of them – all conservatives), as who he would like to see submitted for AG. way to go chuck!!
from mtp website:
“Our viewers should note that we invited Attorney General Gonzales to appear as guest on the program but he declined our invitation.”
HA!
My basic cable package excludes FoxNews. But we get a Fox station, who fed me their sunday morning panel. I’d never seen them.
Krystol has this plastic, caught in the headlight, smile that betrayed his review of the next Neocon talking point. The guy never listened. Nothing he said had any base in reality, quite catastrophic that this guy is still invited to comment politics. Quite the crook.
Juan seemed to be the only guy who had any info that is based on reality. The guy was shouted down on four occasions…
The NPR lady was skating on both sides of truth, never really establishing nothing of importance. Useless.
Then there’s Brit… Any time Juan woud state a fact, expose a basic reality, Brit would get a look that any alien abductee gets when he’s probed. It was like watching a petulant six year old rich kid being told that the pool temperature will be lowered by half a degree. Brit will probably pull a Papa Bush Japan spew as the truth will surface from the muck.
I had to restrain myself from zapping, I could not handle the lying.
There’s a diary on Kos entitled ‘Rove Dirty Tricks-email Servers’ which mentions the question I have. Now that we know that Fitz’s subpoena of White House email didn’t get all the email sent through the server Rove etc. were actually using, does this change anything? IANAL. Could this be construed as further obstruction? Could this void previous deals (with Ari,Rover et al)since they were still hiding info from Fitz? Or is this just wishful thinking?
Anyone?
Once we get a Democrat in the WH, can we prosecute the former Bush US Attorneys under administrative law for not pursuing these cases?
That might open up a window for them to testify about the pressure that was brought against them?
Hi pups -
NPR watch # 2 (I had to start somewhere:)
Up til 43 min past the 8 AM pdt hour, today’s Sunday WE used Reason magazine (Right-wing spawn of the Wurlitzer) to frame laws and regulations as “infantilizing”.
Yep – indoor smoke. Incandescent filaments. (NPR’s examples). Thalidomide. Lethal pesticides. Pinto gas tanks (my example).
Protection of public health is infantilizing.
Fuck NPR’s neo-con fifth column.
Reason is the corporate-funded pillar of ideological warfare against all checks on coporate power. (The neocons’ ACSH spins propaganda specifically on science and health).
None of this is a secret to NPR editors.
The NPR editors choose to advance a pro-corporate, pro-cancer line every time they hand over editorial content to the “libertarian” wing of the corporate spin machine.
In SF, KQED is the logical target for changing NPR by hurting flagship station fund drives. If the flagship stations say it’s not fair – tough: what has the station done to seize NPR National News back from the neo-cons?
If the local flagship staions say the boycott is unfair – they can stop carrying NPR News’ corporate propaganda. providinig staion-genrated counterpoints – aired right along wiwth the national program.
The local stations funding NPR News provide aid and support to the neo-cons’ assault on our Republic.
If the flagship local NPR stations in progressive areas can’t be bothered about their own communities, why should the community bother to support them?
In LA, KCRW is the logical change agent. The station is very connected to LA’s entertainment community. NPR’s choice to air homophobe commenters/think tanks is a fatal weakness there.
Both KQED and KCRW are in markets where other stations would still carry NPR’s core news programs. Great opportunity to recruit listener-activists displeased by NPR’s surrender to neo-cons, but don’t want to lose their local broadcasts.
I’m not suggesting a nationwide effort to decrease NPR’s contributions. I am looking forward to a targeted campaign singling out a few NPR major stations in progressive, wealthy areas.
The campaign will use the disconnect between NPR’s News Division vs progressive values to make the national network’s embrace of the neo-cons’ hatred and cruelty the core issue.
The targeted flagship stations will have the very public choice:
support our community, or give up on our money.
Why pay to provide airtime for people who hate gays, love cancer, and celebrate war?
If that’s the best “public” NPR can find, their News Division isn’t worth our money.
When the target station stops paying NPR National News, our local donations will resume.
KCRW and KQED are major NPR supporters – what other major NPR stations in progressive areas could be useful targets? Most corporate change campaigns choose a few major targests – how many major NPR stations would be needed for a change campaign? How many would be too many?
allan_in_upstate @ 93
This goes back to the excellent idea I saw announced here at the Lake some days back–THE FDL SPEAKERS BEREAU. We need to get informed people out there taking to the rest of America
Also, when we do that, we have to be consious of information dosing. We have to feed it in managable pieces.
The names for replacement AG? Anyone have whom Schumer named?
Quebecois@97
“Then there’s Brit… Any time Juan woud state a fact, expose a basic reality, Brit would get a look that any alien abductee gets when he’s probed. “
roflmao – that described his look perfectly!
lhp – thanks for your informative and lengthy answer!
(and it’s not your fault the answer is very depressing.)
solai @ 98
I will go look for it on Kos and be back soon
Bush’s subprime approval ratings are a travesty that employment
continues.
Gromit @
85
Lovely crowd, comprised mostly of my friends! I had some trainwrecks, threw some musical bricks, and enjoyed myself immensely. Thanks for asking!
bg @ 102
mtp will put the show on its website after 1PM
John Casper @ 99
Prosecute them? They are the crime victims, aren’t they?
snoboysdrift @ 106
but remember, he still has 75% approval rating among republicans. mystifying
(scratching my head in wonder…)
Kevster @ 60
Hey, ours in’t a Wurlitzer, it’s a Cavaill-Coll!
looseheadprop @ 110
It does seem to me that, rather than put a squeeze play on them, we have a target-rich environment for Democratic Party recruiting.
That’s the one thing I wish Valerie had handled differently on Friday; I wish she had said that her betrayal by a politicized administration had made it impossible to be a Republican now.
I got a question. I think I heard this morning that there were already 20 vacancies of USAs… (I could be mistaken).
If that is true and the Republicans “only want to develop” things for later on, why not just stick those political appointees into the empty slots…
it seems so obvious, but it sure makes the firing of these people quite blatant…
am I making any sense?
lhp,
following the Capone on tax evasion idea -
okay, the memory is blurry from 4-1-1 critical mass – but the fella testifying on friday about no WH investigations or line of questioning about Plame
definitely recall past threads containing info about Title 28 and Title 50 (?) wherein someone has some ’splaining to do to Congress on just when something like Plame is not investigated -
exception reports ?
oh yeah, some of my more fevered dreams of bringing this all down falls to a technicality like this
Anybody notice all the repetition of the next Plame bashing strategy? Gibson on ABC, CNN and many others gleefully describe Valerie Plame as a multimillionaire with a movie deal. Getting outed must be a good career move. She must have set it all up with our favorite Douchebag of Liberty, the smiling corpse himself, Novak the patriot.
You can’t write this stuff. Really, nobody would believe it!
tommy yum @ 106
Speaking as one who’s in the audience, I love it when the performers are having fun and showing it. Who cares about a trainwreck if everyone’s laughing?
Educated Plaintiff @ 110
and 27% approve of his handling of Iraq.
Who are these people (besides board members of Halliburton?)
My understanding of
thestatutearithmetic is that 2 2=5.Quebecois @ 97
The background on Kristol is interesting–http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Kristol
Seems like he is a chip off the old block–Irving Kristol –http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_Kristol and Gertrude Himmelfarb– http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gertrude_Himmelfarb –and Leo Strauss–http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Strauss; and later ran the campaign for his former harvard roommate Alan Keyes
looseheadprop @ 105
It seems like a no-brainer that the dirty tricks would be coordinated with untracable e-mails, but I suspect that any of those original e-mails are now long gone, since that was pretty much the point of using the outside accounts in the first place. A subpoena would be nice but will probably turn up nothing.
On the other hand, it’s probably illegal to use outside e-mail accounts for official business, as there are laws on the books about how White House documents have to be archived. I don’t think Fitz will go after this at this point, but Congress certainly will.
OldCoastie @ 114
AUSA’s don’t have to be appointed under the same process as USA’s. Removing one manager at the top also increases the burden on the rest of the DOJ food chain, improving the chances that certain white collar crimes are less likely to be prosecuted.
Not that I don’t believe some of the AUSA’s are highly competent and non-partisan professionals , but the current system allows their positions to be gamed as much as the USA’s. I can see where USA’s could have been put in a position to have a strongly partisan AUSA, then dismissed…no data yet to support this, but it’s possible.
GSD @
45
the description of the poll and how the pollsters “fanned out across the country” is pretty fishy. doesn’t pass the smell test to me ……
EPU’d (from your last post LHP): my guess is “the U.S. House of Representatives, in the form of articles of impeachment. Now I’ll go back and the comments. Whew. Got a lot of catching up to do (as usual).
no, Rayne, I think my question is: Were there open USA slots that went unfilled? then they proceeded to can another 8?
Frank Probst
gwb43 addy – Kos
fahrender @
122
The poll was actually taken at the Conservative Political Action Committe Conference a few weeks ago.
-GSD
Frank P @ #120;
Doesn’t the NSA keep records of all email, to keep us safe from terr’ists?
Just sayin’.
Karl Rove had advance notice of Novak’s article. He had a copy of it on Friday and knew it would not go out until Monday. (Even though enterprise editors might have seen it on the wire ahead of time.)
Mr. Rove was and is the President’s closest adviser. He knew what the President knew (and, um, er, much more). He had a top level security clearance and the cautions, instructions and briefings that go with it. He has a near photographic memory.
Mr. Rove, therefore, had about sixty hours notice that the identity of a covert CIA operative – and the identity of her cover organization – would be blown by one of the world’s most famous newspapers.
Mr. Waxman should have jurisdiction to ask Mr. Rove whether he reported this knowledge to the CIA or any other executive branch official or intelligence organization. To ask him what steps he took to block this publication or to minimize the lethal harm that could (and almost certainly has) result from these disclosures of national security information.
All these steps should have taken place months before the commencement of any criminal probe, meaning there was nothing to inhibit a White House investigation of these issues. Same questions for Mr. Armitage, Mr. Libby and Mr. Cheney.
In the event these men did nothing, they are directly liable for the consequences. Are there any new stars on the CIA Wall because of their actions? If so, why have they not paid the consequence?
The way I read it, the physicians spent a percentage of the money they ripped off from Medicare/Medicaid to fund the lobbying they did to get the USAO (my guess the Medicaid Fraud Control Unit) to not take your case. IIRC, your home state was supposed to pocket a fat percentage of whatever was recovered from the physicians. IIRC, laws now incentivize the states to aggressively prosecute that, to help offset deficits. Somebody has to be held accountable. Those US Attorneys who decided not to take your case may not have profited, but they would have to testify to unearth the coercion, just my very humble opinion.
rayne@112
“That’s the one thing I wish Valerie had handled differently on Friday; I wish she had said that her betrayal by a politicized administration had made it impossible to be a Republican now.”
i thought the same. i wished she could have drove that point home insofar as joe wilson having come from such a strong republican calif family – but bottom line – i’m glad the question of his/her party affiliation qued her to make that point at all.
i also wish that every other person who testified were also asked their party affiliation – only fair after valerie had been asked.
Rayne @ 112
Me too. But she played so straight that no one should be able to accuse her of dishonesty (and no doubt the Libby jurors would not). So I guess I’ll just trust her honesty over my desire to always score points.
NickOdemus @
115
We never hear about the monetary status of Boris and Natasha.
Mrs. Toensing, would you care to comment on just how much money you have made from the RNC and the Save Scooter’s Red Ass Foundation in the past 20 years?
-GSD
lhp, another way you could go is to give all the details to a newspaper. No one is going to haul you in for slander. You’ve got the truth. Physicians really hate to see their names in the paper saying they ripped off Medicaid and bribed public officials not to prosecute.
Just read the Kos Article. There are over 300 comments that according to the update are very content rich.
I will have to take some time to digest. It looks like it could be a very promising line i=of inquiry.
LitegatorMom is evidently on the case.
cbl @ 125
More proof of a Kim Jong Il, Stalinesque cult of personality.
Sort of a digital equivalent of the ubiquitous portraits of Saddam Hussein all over Iraq.
-GSD
Anybody notice the new Plame bashing strategy? Now that the Big Poobah himself (Hayden) affirmed that she was, in fact, under deep cover, the punditocracy has turned to describing her as a “stylish” multimillionaire with a movie deal.
When did multimillionaire become a pejorative to the likes of Charlie Gibson and ABC?
Valerie’s mere mention of hers or Joe’s political background would have opened yet another floodgate of projection within the Wurlitzer about ’see! it was always about politics with Joe Wilson !’
and besides, all my Plame dreams came true when she stated clearly, and on the record that Rove still has a security clearance – and I suspect there was a rather boisterous boo-yah somewhere in West Virginia
Thank you, LHD
I’ll wait for your analysis
NickOdemus @ 115
Oh, the PLOT thickens!!!!
This lady was involved in the Rep. Lewis investigation until she got an offer from the firm representing him.
From th War & Piece blog:
A reader sends this post along, by San Francisco attorney Stephen Kaus. According to a March 16, 2007 article by The American Lawyer (”Heyday of paydays may be over,” subscription only) noted by Kaus, former US attorney in Los Angeles Debra Wong Yang, who says she departed the US attorney job of her own volition, and who until recently headed the office in charge of the investigation of former House appropriations committee chairman Jerry Lewis (R-Ca), reportedly got a $1.5 million offer to join the firm representing Lewis. Reports the American Lawyer:
Debra Wong Yang, 47, the Los Angeles U.S. attorney and a member of the president’s corporate fraud task force, got north of $1.5 million to join Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher a few weeks later, according to two recruiters.
The reader who sent this along, an attorney, writes, “No law firm I know ever paid any lateral partner any money up front to join their firm – especially one coming from the public sector with no clients. As a Gibson, Dunn partner, she could earn that much money, but the industry rule is no money up front.”
Link
Dogs that didn’t bark?
I may lack perspective , but I know rotten when I smell it.
-
looseheadprop @ 134
Heheheheheheh! Litigatormom is GOOOOOOD.
Heheheheheh.
linky to litigatormom please :)
AZ Matt says
Great minds, etc.
I blame Connecticut.
-
John Casper @ 129
Lord knows, I would love to know the back story
GSD @ 126
have a link?
got to get this to media matters too
Perris,
That was a joke.
Sorry.
-GSD
Hope the Libby jurors watched the Plame hearing and had a little insight into what that sweet, fun guy did to Mrs. Wilson and her colleagues and contacts.
QuentinCompson @ 142
Send it to Conyers!!!! Attack!!!!!
GSD @ 147
eek
/foolish me feel, I thought there was something akin over there in IRaq
John Casper @ 133
No can do. It’s not my information. It’s the client’s. Lawyers have a lot of restrictions on what we can talk about. Which is why this is as far as I go on this one.
Turns out per Swopa that Fitz was aware of the Rove/RNC e-mail servers that Rove and Co. used.
Heheheheheh!
Short answer.
American Medical Association, subsidizes the Liaison Committee on Medical Education to artificially restrict the number of seats in US Medical School. This insures a chronic shortage of physicians, which probably accounts for the high percentage of errors. Then physicians complain about the high cost of their mal-practice insurance. They also have very deep pockets to fight their patients in court or pay them off in a civil suit that no one hears about.
Apologies to the many fine M.D.’s who try to practice ethically.
bg @
51
There’s more detail over at DKos.
This is, at best registration fraud. As you say, registering a 13 year old doesn’t get a 13 year old into the voting booth.
From the NYTimes today.
Hence, no case.
But the republicans don’t care whether there is a valid case. They want them pressed so that they can rebut challenges to their voter suppression efforts with claims of fraud.
Over and over again we see that in an honest election, on the issues, the Republicans know they will lose. So they have to resort to lies, illegal behavior, smears and voter suppression.
I have a question for the lawyers who eatched the Libby trial. It is about email evidence and this exchange which appeared today at Think Progress concerning the firing of Mr. Iglesias.
Here it is:
Quote
Rove’s “Dirty Tricks” Email Servers
Ok, so Karl’s assistant doesn’t use the WH email system but rather gwb43.com. So, let’s query the WhoIs database to see who owns gwb43.com:
Registrant:
Republican National Committee
310 First Street SE
Washington, DC 20003
US
Domain Name: GWB43.COM
Administrative Contact, Technical Contact:
Republican National Committee dns@RNCHQ.ORG
310 First Street SE
Washington, DC 20003
US
999 999 9999 fax: 999 999 9999
Record expires on 16-Jan-2008.
Record created on 16-Jan-2004.
Database last updated on 17-Mar-2007 13:19:34 EDT.
Domain servers in listed order:
NS1.CHA.SMARTECHCORP.NET
A.NS.TRESPASSERS-W.NE
Im pretty sure the RNC has scrubbed its mailservers by now…..
http://www.dailykos.com/ storyonly/ 2007/ 3/ 4/ 135310/ 0946
Comment by mrJJ — March 18, 2007 @ 11:38 am
mrjj: They can “scrub” these servers, but don’t their sent meesages put packets at every receipient’s server also? Plus, we are now seeing more and more “paper” versions of these messages that put the sender and the receiver in uncomfortable positions.
Comment by MrHaney — March 18, 2007 @ 11:46 am
Well which is it, Mr. Gonzales? Are you a liar or an idiot?
Comment by MrHaney — March 18, 2007 @ 11:37 am
He’s a lying idiot.
Comment by Nat — March 18, 2007 @ 11:55 am
by MrHaney
True…. But what else went through those servers? Did Fitzgerald look into them when he was investigating the Libby matter? The server appears to be a second line of communications for WH insiders using unofficial back channel coms. I still want to know what was Fitzgeralds “Bush/Rove loyalty ranking” ….I don’t mean to cast Fritz in an unfair manner but some parts of his investigation bring up more questions concerning Rove’s participation.
end quote
Is this kind of information (email on servers at either end of an email) something that was part of Libby’s trial and does that mean it is available to Congress now to examine if it were not used in Libby’s trial?
And,
What about the question of Karl Rove using Republican National Committee servers and erasure of evidence? Is that a crime (to erase) and does the recipient have traceable email tracks even it were erased? Do you need both sides of an email to confirm the email was legitimate?
This analogy is lame. It’s so lame I feel I have to respond since in reality it represents how little Fitzgerald did and has done in protecting the public (protecting America from criminal behavior in the highest of offices that represent far more death and destruction than even the likes of Al Capone ever wrought).
First question? Why hasn’t Fitzgerald charged and prosecuted those he claims there’s a cloud over? Because he might not get a conviction. Wow! Who is that important to? America or Fitzgerald’s career and career notch record?
The reason a prosecutor shouldn’t charge people that likely did not commit crimes is because they likely did not commit any crimes and prosecuting them would be an abuse of power by the government. We’re seeing that very danger right now with the politicizing (”partisanizing” as someone more accurately phrased it elsewhere, though politics as the base is still a problem) of prosecution with U.S. Attorneys.
But just as the claims made in the Libby case for protecting the sanctity of a reporter’s conversations and notes were bogus, actually being the reverse of the intent of the protection (to protect whistler blowers disclosing malfeasance in high places rather than protecting high placed malefactors) any claim to avoid prosecution of a less than perfect case on the basis of avoiding government persecution of likely innocent people is the exact opposite of the real situation in the Libby-Plame circumstances where high placed government officials were abusing their power and endangering the nation through abuse and misuse of that power.
Where prosecuting Al Capone and disclosing the circumstances where he made millions of dollars when most others only made pennies and where Capone competitors were often found dead or maimed with circumstantial factors implicating Capone might not have been significant enough to get a conviction for Capone, it would at least have informed the public of the nature of Al Capone. But the public already knew that and so it was pointless.
Not so with the Plame treason. If there was no crime because the president waved his hand and said “It’s not treason if I, the “unitary one,” endanger America for purely political reasons to avoid disclosing that I lied the country into a disaster of a war for oil” it would still be enormously significant to point out to the American people that nature of this “innocence.”
Fitzgerald didn’t want to do that and he’s claiming, and this blog repeatedly puts forth, the purity of his professional nature as an excuse. But that purity is little different from Judith Miller’s. She at least had the guts to spend some time in jail over her affectation. Fitzgerald would rather go back to his “day job” than work on a case to defend America and the American public that he might not “win.” But there’s no doubt who “loses.” America.
Joe Wilson suggested after the Libby verdict that Fitzgerald got Al Capone on tax evasion. But that’s dead wrong. Fitzgerald got Al Capone’s bookkeeper for bad book keeping. Fitzgerald never even charged Al Capone and good ol’ “scar face” is still involved in massacre after massacre. It’s Fitzmas!!!
Hey! Fitzgerald did get a significant conviction. That is important. He’s basically left it up to the press and the congress to take it from there and inform the public of the significance of his efforts and any changes and corrections that need to be made. As far as he’s concerned it’s not his problem that the press and the congress were part of the problem in the first place. But again, what Fitzgerald has done is important. It is and was a good and important effort. But it wasn’t an heroic one. I don’t think I’d want Fitzgerald as a firefighter.
Getting here late, but wanted to drop serious kudos to you LHP, absolutely excellent post.
Maybe a few of the lawnorder mouthbreathers will let it sink it a little.
BTW, I heard Tucker call us liberals mouth-breathers the other day because we’re pushing for some accountability. Gotta love the liberal press.
Thank god we have a little push-back now, thanks to this site and others.
Thanks for the response. I hope the client considers trying to get the facts published. Normally the Chamber of Commerce hates litigation, but Medicaid fraud is one exception, it hurts everyone except the physicians who steal.
AZ Matt @ 140
Gibson Dunne is Miguel Estrada’s law firm too
Will there be any institutions left uncorrupted by this administration by the time they run out the clock?
-GSD
well at least they’re consistent #8533
kos diary – NH phone jammers
Rayne @ 121
I’m wondering about funding in those offices, because there were some rumors about lack of resources. If they wanted to create a problem in a district that didn’t exist before, that would be one way to do it.
Equally, if one wanted to limit an office’s ability to pursue high-profile cases and force them the concentrate on a WH agenda, squeezing the budget would be a way of doing that, too.
If you have an objection (as I do) that MTP invited corrupt and disgraced government official Tom Delay on their show today, consider writing MTP a little note about it:
Submit a MTP Viewer Comment HERE
My comment is as follows:
cbl @ 143
I don’t know how. The update din’t have links it just menitoned threads in th comment section that were being spun by differnt people on differnt topics and one of them was Litigator Mom’s
Amos Anan — I think you really need to consider the nature of greymail and Cheney’s to-date successful claims of executive privilege.
Would you have rather no conviction, the entire case thrown out like Sibel Edmonds’ case, either under the claim of State Secrets or executive privilege?
lhp -
s’okay, I’m on it ;)
QuentinCompson @
141
Question:
If the Lewis case was previously headed by a prosecutor who jumps ship, does that mean someone necessarily picks it up, or does it just become abandoned?
we were discussing that very thing downstairs -
John Casper provided a link to same, and some other commenter pointed out the clowns @ DOD/GITMO are doing the same thing with defense counsel
Amos Anan at 9:54 am
I don’t recall when I’ve read a less intelligent comment. I think it’s so unfamiliar with the facts that you cannot possibly even be a neo-con troll.
Amos, in terms of helping you come to grips with your ignorance of the facts, do you understand what greymail is?
While you’re cogitating that, how about buying Marcy Wheeler’s ANATOMY OF DECEIT. Before wasting more of our time, read that. Then come back and apologize.
montag @ 162
Exactly. They were chatting up “woodshedding” Lam, trying to ensure somebody built a case for discharge against her. I’m sure if they were doing this with Lam, they were certainly building a case against others. Poor performance could be easily induced by severe budget restraints combined with task overload.
dude. This is what I think is the case. I have no expertise.
If an indictment has been filed, the case continues. If no indictment, it is up to the new US Attorney to investigate and decide what to do.
John Casper @ 169
I’ll give him this much; he sure used an awful lot of words to recite some simple talking points.
Thanks for the link to the Daily Show. My, those Bush regime insiders toe the company line so well, they remind me of the lines of clones on the planet Geonosis. Don’t the American people deserve leaders, appointed or elected, with a little more intelligence, moxie and articulation to at least MODIFY THE MESSAGE EVEN A TINY BIT?!! In an aside, did anyone see Brit Hume libel Valerie Plame, saying she committed perjury by saying she was covert? What a complete idiot and Bush lapdog he is. I hope she sues him, too.
What Rayne said at #83 and 165.
It seems to me that Libby’s conviction for obstructing the investigation completely refutes any criticism of Fitz for not bringing in an IIPA conviction.
And the fact that Libby was chief of staff to Cheney and also a top assistant to Bush indicates where the investigation would have gone if it hadn’t been obstructed.
montag at 9:57 am
Yes, per cbl above, the LATimes did a terrific article on how the WH was squeezing USA budgets. It definitely was hampering prosecutions. Unfortunately, the article is now behind their firewall.
emptywheel upstairs on the Waxman hearing.
Rayne at 10:04 am
Yes, lmao.
Amos Anan @ 156
Amos,
Have you ever made the decision whether or not to prosecute someone? Do you understand Double Jeopardy?
If you still have time to go under the Stature of Limitations and you pull the trigger, prosecute and lose, YOU HAVE BLOWN YOUR ONE AND ONLY SHOT and the guy walks forever.
I am sorry you are impatient. I am impatient too. But, we have to understand that these are huge stakes and there is only one shot at each target.
stands back …..
to watch Amos Anan @ 156 about to be educated by the experts.
GSD @ 160
NO
Two points
First when Patrick Fitzgerald came out of the courthouse after the verdict, he pointedly stated that the case was now “inactive”. Is “inactive” the same as closed, no Patrick stated if additional information comes to light…
Second the White House Security Officer who testified Friday stated in defense of not currently moving forward with an investigation after the Libby trial, said he has not been informed that the case is closed implying he could not act until he is notified that the case was completely closed.
If the case remains inactive forever, does this mean the White House Security Officer never has to investigate breaches of security related to the outing of Plame?
Please help me understand the law in this regard.
montag @ 162
BINGO!
You see? It’s a whole lot of subtle manipulations. No single one big enough or clear cut enough for a person to have the self confidence to speak out.
It’s death by a thousand paper cuts.
dude @ 167
QuentinCompson @
141
Dogs that didn’t bark?
——————————–
War and Piece
Laura Rozen
March 17, 2007
A reader sends this post along, by San Francisco attorney Stephen Kaus. According to a March 16, 2007 article by The American Lawyer (”Heyday of paydays may be over,” subscription only) noted by Kaus, former US attorney in Los Angeles Debra Wong Yang, who says she departed the US attorney job of her own volition, and who until recently headed the office in charge of the investigation of former House appropriations committee chairman Jerry Lewis (R-Ca), reportedly got a $1.5 million offer to join the firm representing Lewis. Reports the American Lawyer:
Debra Wong Yang, 47, the Los Angeles U.S. attorney and a member of the president’s corporate fraud task force, got north of $1.5 million to join Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher a few weeks later, according to two recruiters.
The reader who sent this along, an attorney, writes, “No law firm I know ever paid any lateral partner any money up front to join their firm – especially one coming from the public sector with no clients. As a Gibson, Dunn partner, she could earn that much money, but the industry rule is no money up front.” Anyone else have any perspective on that?
http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/005815.html
———————————
I may lack perspective , but I know rotten when I smell it.
———————————-
Question:
If the Lewis case was previously headed by a prosecutor who jumps ship, does that mean someone necessarily picks it up, or does it just become abandoned?
————————————
Depends on what the replacement wants to do
Hahahahahaha From Swopa’s comments
Where’a kkkarl?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDaRFf7Cd6M
looseheadprop @
134
great bumper sticker material too:
“PELOSI IN ‘07″
707 …….
HotFlash @ 111
I would rather think it’s a Hammond B-3. It’s got Groove.
Not only is there an underlying crime, there’s a whole matushka of them. That’s one of those Russian dolls which is really a multitude of dolls nested one inside the other. The underlying crime of the Libby trial was the Plame outing. The underlying crime of the Plame outing was lying to Congress and the American people about the reasons for the Iraq War. The crime underlying the Iraq War was the sale the American government to the highest bidders for the personal gain of elected officials. And the crime underlying the illegal sale of our government was the fraudulent election of George W. Bush and Dick Cheney. If these folks were in the mob, RICO would be deployed so fast your head would spin. Al Capone indeed.
dalloway, that’s matrioshka ……..
fahrender–
Oops, sorry. But you get my point…
Apparently you do not understand the concept of entrapment.
Since there was no underlying crime, Fitzgerald and the FBI investigators were out of line to ask the questions the Libby felt compelled to lie in answer to. The questions were improper, hency Libby’s answers, true or not, are irrelevant and inadmissable.
Therefore, Libby’s lies were not criminal. He should be pardoned.
Or something like that.
GMTA. I have thought the exact same thing many times over the past several months. It is the same.
way EPU’d – but nice job on this and in particular yesterday on the insta-declass LHP.
You know I think the NIE leak needs a lot more of a workover. Whatever Libby or Cheney or anyone can try to claim about whether or not they “knew” Plame was Covert or her identity classified, or whether or not they “intentionally” outed her –
There is no question that they knew the NIE was classified and they intentionally leaked it.
Kind of moves you past the love – all point in the match.
wingnut wetdream @ 190
Apparently you do not understand the concept of chronological order, as the original lying to the FBI that Libby stuck to/with in the Grand Jury happened PRIOR to Fitzgerald’s appointment as prosecutor. IOW when Fitzgerald came to the job Libby had *ALREADY* lied repeatedly to the FBI which was in itself a crime for which one of his convictions is for. No one made Libby stick with the lies in the GJ other than Libby, and your attempt to claim this was an entrapment example is so feeble, so weak, and so vapourous that it makes sandstone look like diamond by comparison.
I’d say better trolls please except I don’t want trolls, I want people with actual capacity for critical thought…something being a member of the Trolletariat by definition lacks.
solai Could this void previous deals (with Ari,Rover et al)since they were still hiding info from Fitz?
Pretty sure your answer is no. Fitzgerald had the emails and knew about them and disclosed their existence early on in the Libby pretrial proceedings, but continued to let Rove walk and use Ari as an immunity witness, so I can’t think there is any hope of undoing those agreements based on the emails.
CREW’s case will be interesting though – if using that server violates the presidential archives act, hmmmmmmmmm.
193 – I believe 190 is sarcasm more than trolling – look at the name and the “or something like that.”
fwiw
If you think they are, it’s usually better if you don’t offer sustenance.
wingnut wetdream @ 190
Mary4 @ 195
Oops.
Waving hi at Mary4!
Hi John! Heading out to try to catchup on barnwork, but it’s nice to virtually see you *g*
TRex @ 25
excellent.
If Valerie Plame was a covert agent why hasn’t she been doing covert work the last few months?
It’s just more evidence to me that she never was a covert agent.
How can you ‘out’ a covert agent who doesn’t seem to have a job? sheeesh………
(from the dept. of ‘duh’)
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 202
you have some kind of learning disorder I suppose or this is some kind of snark?
the president’s own head of the cia told you in no uncertain terms valery was covert
whatever she was working on, as covert, you would not know it
that’s from the dept of “duh” for those that can’t follow along, covert means YOU don’t know what she was up to
{do the marionettes repeating the rediculous words their puppeteers put in their mouths really have as little reasoning powers as that quote?…it HAS to be snark)
Sally @ 148
good point. i bet they did.
perris, 202 was a jibe at the ridiculousness of arguments that v.plame was not covert.
but on an unrelated note, yes I probably do have at least ’several’ learning disorders! :)
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 205
sorry then, I kind of thought it might have been snark
my opologies
I have a hunch that “At the pleasure of the president” made it into the mediasphere via The West Wing.
Just a hunch though.
perris- all’s well that ends well! :)
AZ Matt @
8
ROFLAMO!
ZING!
*Rimshot!*
Matt; you card, you!
Mary4 @ 195
These days it is so hard to tell the difference anymore. Same with parody/caricature and reality where movement conservativism is concerned from Bush all the way down throughout the GOP and their Canadian counterparts the CPC.
If you need reminding what this is all really about, read Peter Beaumont in today’s Observer on Guardian Unlimited about how a country was broken by people who didn’t know (care?) how to put it back together
be careful. trying to argue rationally against positions fomented by totally irrational idiots only raises questions about the sane one, not the irrational idiots.
.
Will someone with some legal background please read post number 181 and answer my question.
I am concerned the White House is going to use this to justify resistance to any directive from the Legislature to initiate an investigation that they should have started the day after Valerie Plame was outed.
Also I wondered whether Patrick was actually putting feelers out there to get additional information to reactivate the case. Did anyone else notice this?
I heard it as a plea to the public at large.
LHP,
Compliments you on your knowledge, tact and presentation. I have yet to read a posting of yours that did not offer an insightful examination. I am awed by your ability to write acurately and concisely on topics that can be very involved. You set a tone for your threads that fosters good discussion, rather than simple partisan rancor.
The only thing that throws me is your moniker, “looseheadprop?” Nearly every loosehead prop, (and the entire front row, in general) I knew was stinky, foul tempered and built like a firehydrant. Somehow that disconnects from your writing?
However, because some of the witnesses in the Grand Jury (G/J) told only part of the truth and because some of the witnesses in the G/J just made stuff up, you do not have all the admissible evidence you need to be confident of conviction.
This certainly matches my sense of what went on here.
In fact, sometimes it seemed to me Fitzgerald must have felt like this was a really crappy case to have to bring all around – at least suspected that Fleischer lied even after getting immunity for all but perjury; Miller lied about not remembering June 23 (to say nothing of “Valerie Plame”); Grenier almost certainly lied initially, and then sort of found his way around it; Schmall conveniently omitted, at least; Grossman fudged; even honorable Addington gave a strictly speaking consistent but casuistically vague description of the key bit of his July 2003 conversation with Libby to the FBI initially; and on and on. And those are just the witnesses we learned about because they were good enough to use at trial for obstruction-type crimes!
Also, my lawyer friends tell me that federal prosecutors in particular have a lot more latitude to pick and choose the (more) slam-dunk charges, as per your post.
But in this case, I think there can be almost no question that Fitzgerald is done with Libby – it would be very difficult, I think, to bring additional charges at this late point. Same goes for Cheney, of course, as I think you suggested. October 2005 was the time to do it, and Fitzgerald passed. I remain somewhat mystified as to why. The damn indictment reads quite often like a conspiracy charge against Libby and Cheney. Maybe Fitzgerald simple couldn’t buck the prestige of the office of VP at the end of the day.
I hope that Scooter Libby and Harriet Grant are pondering, deeply, that last paragraph of lhp’s post. This would be a good time for some serious cost/benefit analysis, post-public confirmation of Valerie Plame Wilson’s (IIPA-covered) covert role as a WMD-fighting spy runner at the CIA [a public confirmation that has suddenly made a pardon more remote], in advance of June’s sentencing and before Congress perhaps digs up a few more home truths.
Karl Rove may have gotten there first, Scooter – but you certainly know your legal jeopardy doesn’t end with perjury and obstruction, and you probably have more goods to deliver than Rove had – might as well get in more or less on the ground floor for the next round – eh?
Amos @ 156 – You make some good points (as do Rayne @ 165 and lhp @ 178 in response). I’d just ask you to consider that what Fitzgerald may have on Bush is not Bush claiming that he waved his wand to declassify the covert spy – but only that he waved it to declassify a portion of the NIE. That’s a rather different prospect from the one you envision. The potential charge Fitzgerald is closest to, I and many others believe, is conspiracy – if not for a plot to out a spy, then to cover up the (now-confirmed) fact of her outing to the media by Executive Branch officials entrusted, at a minimum, with protecting classified information. That would mean at least double-barrelled action against some more of the very highest officials in our Executive Branch of government – a daunting prospect as compared to charging even the biggest mobsters in the Mafia, what with graymail, executive privilege, and the immense potential ramifications to our political process and balance of power (very much a concern of the powerful corporate sponsors of our government these days) all looming over a potential indictment.
No serious, good faith prosecutor could or would jump into such a prosecution just to try to make a point with the indictment (without concern for obtaining a conviction). Just consider the (off-blog) slander and abuse the government team undeservedly had heaped on them by the likes of Wall Street’s official editorial page: and now imagine if an acquittal or even hung jury had been the upshot of the Libby trial. Would the right message have been received by the public at large with that outcome – or does the conviction do the talking for the government? And now multiply the public rhetoric tenfold at least, for any potential defendants above Libby’s level in government. Our corrupt media gives no credence to such things as good faith indictments of powerful corporate patrons operating from public office – on the contrary, the media shields those patrons from exposure, and discounts and discredits their critics/prosecutors. Even the conviction of Libby was minimized to the greatest extent possible, by the likes of David “The Minimizer” Brooks and his ilk. And DOJ prosecutors are not Members of Congress – they have a different role to play under the law and the Constitution, and they can’t decide to substitute for Congress, just because Congress decided to violate its collective oath of office for the last six years.
We simply can’t judge from the outside the cards Fitzgerald is holding, much as we are tempted to. About all we can do is to conclude that, thus far, the cover-up(s) have largely worked, for those in our government who were most directly involved in the cutthroat betrayal of one of their own nation’s CIA WMD spy networks and its front company, and for those involved in concocting and concealing the fabricated documents that helped lead the “world’s only superpower” to invade and violently and corruptly occupy the defenseless, oil-rich nation of Iraq.
I raised the Al Capone comparison a week ago, not sure if it was on FDL or Huffpost and am glad to see it fleshed out more expertly.