We used the word "faggot" all the time where I grew up. When our dog would hump someone's leg, my father called it "faggotry." He once told me a story of when he was in Korea and his unit beat up a "faggot" with a broom stick, though he didn't take part. Dad always hated violence, and never talks about the war itself. At the same time, he never questioned his assumptions about "faggotry" until I came out.
Now, maybe we were hypersensitive, hyperdefensive little preadolescent boys in my 'hood, but even we had some rudimentary gaydar. Disco, to us, was "gay," so we went the other route and got into Southern rock, in suburban Long Island of all places (compensation, much?). We had George Michael pegged with the first Wham! hit, too.
The all-boys Catholic high school I attended for two years was in fact a wayward home for the sexually confused and questioning, with only a rare few courageous enough to be fabulous. I was never much the fabulous type, so the combined effects of my basic style, my ability to deceive myself and my ignorant understanding of all gay men as swishy girly wannabes helped me run "successfully" from my identity for a couple of decades. Took a while, but I finally grew up in my thirties.
Denial is not a mix a man can sustain indefinitely; something's eventually got to give. There are men who make a full compartmentalized, double life of this sort of thing, and others who ultimately decide integrity and authenticity are the better option. Once I came out and got to know many more gay men of all types, my gaydar became rather acute.
When my partner and I go out, we notify each other when we spot other gay folks, but we do it in code. Ever play "Marco Polo" when you were a kid? My partner and I play "Marco Homo." When one of us spots a likely member of the "family," he says sotto voce, "Marco!," causing the other to scan the vicinity for the suspect. Once spotted, and if the other concurs with the assessment, the proper response is "Homo." Practically speaking, we've begun to leave off the last part, just in case anyone can hear us. We still say "Marco!" though.
I'm not sure why we do this. Maybe we do it to amuse ourselves, or maybe we do it to assess how gay friendly an environment might be. I've never been gay bashed or attacked, but I have friends who have, so it's still good to be a bit wary.
Here's the thing, though: my gaydar for the generation of men now under thirty is not very damn good, and I don't trust it much. Sure, I can still spot some "family" members, but guys of that generation are much less uptight about their sexuality than we were growing up, and so they don't do as much to ghettoize themselves along the coded landscape of mannerism, dress, grooming, eye contact and je ne sais quoi that collectively used to signal "gay" or "straight."
Some of these young fussy straight bois groom themselves meticulously nowadays, the way gay guys did exclusively a short time ago. Also, now that I'm not as young and pretty as I used to be, I don't catch many telltale looks in my direction that used to tip me off to other gay men. The quick, furtive flash of desire in the eyes is as unmistakable as it is infallible, but I don't get much mileage out of that anymore. Eh, that's okay. I'm happily married partnered. Bagged my limit, as the hunters say (and boy, was I a hunter. . . lots of catching up to do when you get started in your thirties).
So, how's your gaydar? Do you have any? Do you notice any trends or changes in the ways men and women relate to their bodies, their identities or their public personas? Do you notice anything in the people you know, especially the generation coming up, that might suggest a loosening of strict adherence to constricted norms of masculinity or femininity? What does it mean to be a man or woman, and how are men and women alike or different, in your view? Let's take it up in the comments.
And oh, there's really no reason I selected the video clip above of Lindsay Graham talking about sausage. Why do you ask?

Related posts:





Spotlight
Gayst!
Pach!
PAUL LYNDE!
There’s a story I’ve heard about Paul Lynde on an airline flight – supposedly, he said to the parents of an unruly chyld in first class, “If you don’t keep that chyld in her seat, I’m going to fuck her!” That ended the prowling quite quickly. Of course that was another time… before parents actually thought that everyone was out to have sex with their children for real.
I grew up in SF but I don’t really have much gaydar. Mostly because I don’t give a shit who’s gay. Whatever, you know? Consenting adults, man. Guy I work with is gay…I never would have thought it but you know, doesn’t matter. He does his job and he’s ok at it. That’s all I care about.
Pach!
Fitz!
Guinness!
FDL!
I have the worst gaydar of any gay man I know…
My gaydar is mostly of the retroactive, “Yeah, I guess I can see that” variety.
my gaydar’s been busted since the era of lipstick lesbians… and I really, really NEEDED IT this past week or so…
Heya, gang!
OT
Fitz
From Scott Horton’s email:
(11) – (12) The Prosecutor, and Future Attorney General? Today being St Patrick’s Day, it’s time to throw a bouquet to a Hibernian. My pick is Patrick Fitzgerald. In a day when federal prosecutors around the country are under a cloud, Fitzgerald shows that in some places a proud tradition has been maintained. Earlier this week, Fitzgerald was invited to speak to Henry Waxman’s Oversight Committee. He declined. It was an opportunity for political limelight. But as usual, Fitzgerald showed appropriate prosecutorial restraint. His comments have likewise shown beyond any doubt that an interest in justice is always uppermost in his mind, as it should be. Today, Fitzgerald speaks at an ABA function in Dublin, and he calls for respect for international and foreign law. That may seem innocuous enough. But in the age of Bush, that’s a virtual act of insubordination – and another reason to admire this quiet, cautious, professional figure. There are a few Republicans in this country who live to the traditions of Abraham Lincoln. Patrick Fitzgerald is one. And today, Andrew Cohen concludes his four-part WaPo series entitled The Case Against Alberto Gonzales with an appeal for the appointment of Patrick Fitzgerald as Attorney General. He won’t be Bush’s pick, that much is certain – but a clear-eyed president in the future?
Heya, Pach!
Of course I worked at a big camera rental house in San Francisco for about 10 years. And what you say about young men these days applies to photographers as a whole. They just don’t operate like normal straight men, being in a creative field is a big part of it I expect…
And boy did I have some crushes on some hot straight men I could’ve sworn were gay till the inevitable “this girl I’ve been dating”… Guess that’s why they call it a crush…
Evening, pach.
things were much easier in the days of flannel shirts and pinkie rings.
kelven @ 10
Wait… what?
Then again, I’m not a pro, so maybe the rules don’t apply. I certainly don’t *act* creative…
Pach!
Here in SF, my gaydar’s gain is set waaaay down.
(Information overload and all that)
OldCoastie @ 12
Yeah, the irony: us and the fundie crackers lamenting simplicity in an age of androgeny!
Heh.
I tend to limit my gaydar to public figures, since I don’t care one way or another what the sexual preference of real people happens to be. But when I see all of these repressed GOP hate spewers dictating moral behavior through the teevee screens into America, it sure gives me reason to care how repressed and destructive they are.
Graham graduated from the University of South Carolina at Columbia with a B.A. in Psychology in 1977 and from its school of law with a J.D. in 1981, and eventually entered private practice as a lawyer. He is a brother of the Pi Kappa Phi Fraternity. Graham has never married.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindsay_Graham
LOL! Okay
I am curious about why you discuss sexual politics so much on this site which seems to more about “asexual” politics.
I have nothing against gays and dispise the discrimmation and all the problems that our society makes for gay people, but why all the constant stories and references to gay issues?
In fact, aside from gay politicsl struggles what is the obsession with sex in general. Usually on a political blog site unless the issue du jour is about sex… why inject it and make that the topic?
Why is the fact that your lived in the closet confused for 20 years something that “we” want or need to hear? I want to hear about your political views not your take on sexual politics. Why is someone’s gender or sexual orientation an issue at all?
Same comment applies to Trex who is so brilliant but seems to bring sex into the discussion when it seems to have no place. Frankly I don’t care if you are gay or Trex is gay or Jane is gay or straight.
Why does that matter? And why are you writing so often about it?
I simply don’t get it.
Pachacutec !!!
hope your gaydar has a surge protector – (tbogg)
Heh, is correct, Sir…!
this week I got the “twinkle eyes” Tuesday thru Thursday from a woman I find most interesting. But Friday? no twinkle eyes…
damn, busted gaydar! I still don’t know if she is or she isn’t…
I’m sorry, I wasn’t using “creative” as a code for gay. What I meant was that photographers are a creative, friendly, open, progressive lot. And although we were based in San Francisco, we had photographers from all over. A great group of people on the whole….
Eli @ 14
Ok, gang, here’s a test:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=C5d…..38;search=
Whaddya think?
cbl @ 20
Is that John Roberts on the left?!
So is Gonzalez gay?
kelven @ 21
No, I didn’t take it that way. It was more the meticulous grooming part, really…
Guess I should shut up and sing.
Pachacutec @ 22
Um, I’m gonna say yes.
LoudonLib – yes
I had been thinking for a while that Gen. Peter Pace seemed kinda gay. After his incredibly hateful remarks about his fellow military men, you know the ones that put their lives on the line for this idiot, I’m conviced he’s a self-loathing homosexual. Much like the military dad in the movie “American Beauty,” or Ted Haggard.
hi pach – i’m kinda new here – lurking a few months – posting only about a month – can’t quite keep straight (no pun intended) which pup is where doing what. are you the person who had dinner w/ the b-52 person?
Pachacutec @ 26
Can you put it on YouTube?
Pachacutec @
23
I’m gonna say no…
BTW: we watched the DVD of the Dixie Chicks Shut Up and Sing tonight. It was way cool.
Sing? Why don’t you simply answer the question…
Why are you so obsessed with sex, sex roles, sex identity and so forth?
And why do you use THIS forum to discuss it?
I guess I shouldn’t do any more posts about Klingons…
Educated Plaintiff @ 30
No, that was TRex.
Pachacutec @ 34
i saw shut up tues nite – i thought it was fantastic!!!
I guess I failed the test. All I know is that poor guy is so pitiful I got tears in my eyes.
Eli @ 36
Eli, you funny.
From the last thread. The 20 questions on impeachment has the rule for conviction wrong. It’s not 67 votes. It’s “And no person shall be convicted without the concurrence of two thirds of the members present.” Which is what I thought. The only practical importance of this relates to senators unable to serve, because nobody would miss a Senate conviction vote. or Lieberman could abstain which would have the effect of a nay.
Pachacutec @ 37
sorry
Eli, for you:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=PW898PqcTTE
Heh,
Lindsay huh?
Some 20 years ago I started a new job and was asked to lunch by a co-worker. Didn’t think much about it, but at one point I realized that he was gay. I told him I was married, and he said he was single but really wanted to marry and have kids some day. I remember thinking “who does he think he’s fooling?”
Fast forward 18 years.
The fellow in question is the biological father of three kids who live with their two mothers (a couple) across the street. We still work together, and I see visiting, taking the kids to soccer/football, etc on a regular basis.
Who knew?
I wish someone would find a live boy in Tony Perkins’ closet (the family research one, not the Psycho one). Or something – anything – that would get his sanctimonious mug off the TV.
Sexuality IS political! That is why it is relevent. So many straight people don’t get that gay people can’t talk about ANY aspect of their life in the same way straight people do. You always have to be cautious about who is around you before you say “my boyfriend” or anything that might give you away. The atmosphere is poison for us in GW’s America and part of the meme to keep it that way is the idea that all we are interested in is sex. How would you feel if everytime you mentioned a woman you were seeing the other person said “why is everything about sex with you?”
DefJef @ 19
EP: No need to apologize at all.
Can’t tell the players without a scorecard. We’re glad to have you around.
Pachacutec @ 23
This poor kid is no singer, and I don’t think he’s gay either.
Pachacutec @ 16
Then again, if you screw up and guess wrong nowadays, you’re much more likely to get a shrug of the shoulders than a shotgun in the face, so it balances out.
I’ve been cruised by gay women, and my response to it is pretty similar to my response to straight men: “Thanks, but I’m already taken.”
Pachacutec @ 41
You don’t look anything like I pictured you.
LOL! Actually some of the biggest slobs that I knew photographer wise were gay!
Eli @ 26
Pachacutec @ 27
Do you take requests?
LoudounLib @ 46
Yeah, I have no clue what he is, which is kinda my point, though the old standard assumption of a kid like that would be “gay.” But you just can’t tell anymore.
kelven @ 49
Well, I’m more scruffy than slobby, really. Unless you count my apartment.
ty
as to the topic – i think it’s the closet/outed perubs that have politicized homosexuality. back in the ’60’s – ’70’s any ole type of sexuality was the topic. married pols were getting caught sleeping around & we students/hippies weren’t talking about it – we were just doing it & didn’t care who else was doing it or w/ whom ;)
Mack @ 43
That’s really sweet! He gets to be a daddy, the mommies in question get to be mommies, and the kids have not one, not two, but THREE parents! They’ve got it made!
DefJef -
I’m really glad that sexuality and sexual orientation are so often splashing about here in the Lake.
Puppethead describes the “repressed GOP hate spewers” and the damage they do.
I watch the rethugs lie:
global warming
“trickle down” economics
free trade
chemicals are good for you.
You name the topic – some furious winger holding on to their chosen lie with all the strength and indignation they cam muster. Tenacious. Furious.
And disconnected from the biology.
Adamantly, defiantly disconnected.
So repressed.
And seething. And frightened. And rigid.
‘Cause of their sexuality and their rejection thereof.
They’ve been rigidly, adamantly, angrily denying since the first stirrings of puberty – or before.
Spinning like tops.
So long as the wingers’ sexual repression is our living nightmare, sexuality seems a relevant topic.
And…
sex is fun. Why not talk about it?
DefJef @ 19
bonkers @ 50
You know, the funny thing is, when I was about 11 or so, I’m guessing, when that song came out, it was so catchy, me and my homophobic friends never caught on to how gay it was, or if we did, er didn’t care. We made the letters.
Speaking of gaydar:
Remember Gary Bauer? He just SCREAMS ‘bottom’ to me. (And of course he probably is straight as a stick.)
Hi Pach.
Interesting topic. Don’t know what I can add, but I’m always willing to talk about sex.
I’ve been assumed to be gay countless times through my life. Back when I actually gave a shit, I attributed it to being raised by a single mom. Who knows. I certainly have always gotten along with gay men, although I dont find you the least bit attractive. Soory. ;)
As for changes, I would go so far as to say the internet has enabled (caused?) a new sexual revolution. I had a period of heavy online dating prior to meeting my current love, and I was shocked (shocked!) at first at what had changed in the four years I was “married”.
Not so much just the casual “hooking up”, which has always happened, but an overall rapid acceleration in confidence among women regarding their sexuality. Maybe it was “sex in the city”, match.com, or adultfriendfinder, but it seems younger women have a greater sense of what they want and comfort with themselves.
defjef- I’m gonna take a stab at answering your question. Because, from time to time, though not re: this particular post of Pach’s, I have have wondered the same thing. You are coming from a progressive viewpoint- and so am I, saying basically, what does it matter? But, as hets, we haven’t had to live that life, or deal with those complexities. My guess (!) is that for gay people the issue of sexual preferences has way more importance than those not may appreciate. Acceptance, without the need to mention “it” one way or the other would be an ideal world, but that just isn’t here yet. Hets aren’t forced to make this part of their politics, but gay people have had to confront this over and over. Just a quick reaction. Which I hope doesn’t stir up a mess… please.
kirk – I think you’ve got it… a couple of the teachers at my school have that “latent” thing going on… and there is this frenetic kinda energy attached to them – seriously, it looks like chronic panic…
on the micro level, it affects every perception… and both of them are hyper-religious…
when you start playing that out on the world stage, it gets a whole lot more destructive.
sexuality is not political HERE…because people here are pretty evolved and are not sexist or anti gay.
But I don’t see straights dicussing their sexual politics. Or is don’t straights have any sexual politics?
Hypocrisy is really nasty and when people are decietful it is not wrong to call them on it. But making someones sexual ID an issue.. like Lindsay Graham is silly… he is an asshole for other reasons which are arguably more important.
I have been around gays… openly gay people all my life. I see them as no different than straights and unless there is a Mathew Shepperd type incident I don’t see bringing sex up as being that important when the country is going to hell in a hand basket… and we are torturing people.
People obviouisly have shades of masculinity and feminity and all sorts of nuance in their sexuality. Who cares really? What I care about is that all people are treated equally under the law… and we judge people by their character and not their sexuality.
‘nother story
My 7 year old daughter is (an understatement) nervous at the dentist (thrashes , screaming “This is a nightmare!”), and we ended up having to take her to the hospital for sedation to have some work done. The very handsome, charming young doctor explained that only one parent could stay for the procedure, and my daughter chose Mommy. On the way home, I confessed a small amount of jealousy, to which my wife replied:
“He likes children’s films, and compared notes on “Arthur and the Invisibles” and “Bridge to Terabithia”
I had never thought of this as a ‘tell’
OldCoastie @ 33
You didn’t need to do that. Now I need to wash out the tubes to my computer.
If he’s gay, he’s gonna be voted off the team.
I have often thought that gay politicians need to be sanctioned in other ways than by outing. Perhaps “inning”: If you don’t claim to be queer, nobody’s going to sleep with you any more. Post the picture in every bathhouse and bar. Make sure nobody will take him home or even around the corner.
As far as the senator is concerned, I give him credit for not maintaining a sham marriage. To bad he’s supporting a sham party that hates anyone they can.
DefJef: So you’re at a site that is a leader in revolutionizing media and politics, and you’re gonna get worked up about some occasional gay references, by some of the gay writers?!? Strange. FDL is strictly about non-sexual politics an overwhelming amount of the time.
You must really hate that one of the front-pagers now is Chicago Dyke.
It’s funny. No one complains when I write about immigration and the marginalization, even persecution, of brown people.
My family has no legal standing or protection. I’m an alien to the laws of my own land. But, maybe some people think that’s about “sex.”
I’ve taken a stab at writing several sentences next, but I’ve dumped them all. Best to keep this a party.
Hey Pach,
Funny you should bring this topic up. I was recently thinking about the younger generation and how they feel about gay’s or being gay.
My 17 yr old son was describing to me a situation in one of his classes recently where he was sort of verbally sparring with another
kid who is one of the “religiiously misguided” we have become so familiar with in the last few years.
The kid was talking about how awful and sinful homosexuality is and what a disgrace it would be to have a child that was gay. My son, being the liberal thinker I raised him to be, argued about the value of humanity and loving a child no matter what. asking the kid ” what would you do if you knew your child would be gay before it was born, have an abortion?”
I am not gay but grew up in the SF bay area where diversity has always been a bright part of life. But I do worry about the pressure these kids must be under during a time in their life that is full of turmoil and change. And the religious bigotry disguised as faith. My heart goes out to them, straight or gay.
Valley Girl @ 60
Quite true. I have friends, now going on forty years, who are gay, while I’m not. I am friendly with them because of common interests and values. But, they do see society differently because their own sexuality is used as a political tool by the authoritarians in society. That politicizes them in ways that are hard for others to understand.
When someone is beaten, left tied up to a fencepost in Wyoming and is left to die because of their sexual orientation, that’s visceral for anyone of the same orientation. That sort of thing politicizes all who value their rights in society.
Pachacutec @ 66
You’re a helluva host, Pach! Keep throwing parties.
Pachacutec @ 65
no please dont back off. i would very much like to hear your thoughts/opinions/experiences
I note that my son’s generation (12 years old) seems much less concerned about sexual orientation. Being gay, or not, is taken in stride, at least theoretically. And there’s a lot of nice blurring of gender stereotypes: girls are athletic, mean girls beat people up; a guy might wear nail polish, dye his hair or even wear eyemakeup as a counterculture statement.
I think it’s all good.
Relevant?
What are the 3 taboos for polite conversation?
Politics, religion and sex.
Late Nite FDL == impolite conversation
montag @ 67
when i was in a car accident (hence – “plaintiff”) it was my 3 gay friends (im straight) that were the most caring & compassionate
Phoenix Woman @ 59
Nope. My gaydar is still pretty strong, even at my advanced age, and I can spot a power bottom.
EP:
I’ve learned, since being made a “front pager” after having first been a commenter, that if I make any direct arguments against things commenters say, people think I’m suppressing them or bullying them. I’ve learned from experience that I have my say mostly in the main post, and then play host once the party starts.
I don’t hate anyone… especially posters at the Lake… all are brilliant sharp minds. I don’t care for the religious posts and the ones about spirituality and as I mentioned sexual politics and especially personal sexual politics.
Even though we live in a fairly homophobic world… and heteros walk freely without “harassment”… many hets have “sexual” problems and I would also find it inappropriate to discuss them on this site… some say about how dating third wave feminists is today.
These are topics which belong on other sites. That is unless sex is an issue in a larger political matter.
Down here the young people appear to be pretty comfortable with their gay colleagues, but the older folk and the country folk remind me of the 50’s in the US. Having grown up in NY and then living in the San Francisco bay area (as a straight guy) I always knew gay people and had gay friends, but the culture here really is behind the times.
The joke is that when you visit Oz set your watch ahead 17 hours and back 30 years.
As for gaydar, I’m pretty hopeless, particularly as to the younger set – is a guy with purple hair who looks like he’s been attacked by a nail gun gay or straight? Who knows? Who cares?
Sorry but I have to disagree. Sexuality AS a political issue is very relevent here because this blog concerns itself with the downtrodden no matter who they are. I guess you just don’t understand how you feed this oppression in a general way by saying “why do you have to discuss this?’ The fact that you a progressive person asks this shows exactly why it needs discussing…
DefJef @ 62
Pachacutec @ 74
guess i havent been around long enough to witness that in the threads – mods must be lightening fast. (h/t to the mods for keeping the peace)
Pach, I respect your sense of how and where to best express your ideas here.
Whatever additional sentences you wrote, but decided not to bring to the party…
if they don’t show up here tonight, I hope we see them as the core of main post – very soon.
Pach,
Thank you for your thread tonight. The thoughtfulness you bring to your posts are always interesting to me and this is not exception. To me, not gay, it seems most there are comfortable in the own skins, gay or straight. The problem is many people are not comfortable due to upbrings in ideologies that condem differences. The way I see it the more people commumicate the less these differences even occur to another as being not the “norm”. But there are many like the Roves of the world who like to divide and conqueor.
This is a totally inappropriate topic for this site. Why are you talking about your sexual preferences? That aside, I have no problem with homosexuality. But this isn’t the forum for that type of discussion. By discussing this topic; you’re just simply giving power to the homophobic and verifying the validity of using sexual politics. Why give them that power?
Pach @74: I’ve learned from experience that I have my say mostly in the main post, and then play host once the party starts.
***
Much wisdom there, Pach. Please write…and host…on. I always enjoy your comments.
Def, you’re the one defining me and my writing here in terms of sex. I see no descriptions of sexual acts here.
I’m claiming a life, a family, an identity, the freedom to love and be loved. The framing and conceptualization of this as “sex” is yours. It happens to be a conceptualization Gary Bauer and his ilk share. I’ll leave to you to ask yourself why you think in these terms, but you’re certainly not reading the post on its own terms.
So this post is about reading people’s sexuality?
For what purpose?
DeafByPills @ 81
And, you decided that on your own, how?
DefJef @ 75
imho
homophobia & denying gays their rights is a political matter
It’s amazing to speak to American couples who go to Canada to be married. Or even single ones who breathe the air of equality for weekend in Montreal or Vancouver.
A gay friend from SF visited Toronto recently and was transformed by his experience of equality. Tolerance doesn’t cut it any more.
ya know, it’s funny, at one time I served my country and served it well, I go daily to my job where I teach little children with all the energy and enthusiasm I can muster and I spend many nights a week taking care of an elderly mother and yet… some people still feel like they can tell me to STFU when I’m among friends…
hmm… really? there’s no issue?
montag @ 87
I dunno. I just think that the whole gay bashing thing is stupid and by addressing it, it’s just simply giving the bigots power to do so.
DefJef … I find it interesting that you see FDL as a “political” site where only “political” discussions are appropriate. I certainly would not describe us that way. And, perhaps because I am part of the “personal is political” generation of feminists, I find that sexuality is very very entwined with the power politics we deal with. Now whether Lindsay Graham is gay or not, I could care less except if/when he takes homophobic stands … but the type of repression of gays and of women’s sexuality is another outcome of the sick politics of our day – not off topic at all. IMHO
Interesting and informative post. My son, 15, and his pals are very concerned about somebody being a “homo”. They are figuring out their own sexuality, so they rigidly adhere to approved dress codes for their crowd. I think this is pretty normal. My spouse and I have several gay friends of many years standing, so I don’t put up with “faggot” talk, but it does occur with the kids (boys).
Something I noticed while he was growning up was that boys and girls played together on the playground. When I was growing up, the sexes stayed strictly apart, or else you got teased about being “boyfriends” or “girlfriends” of the people you played with, and you were razzed unmercifully. That no longer seems to be happening, which is great.
Letter to the FDL editors: Please continue to post about anything you’d like at any time. I really enjoy the thoughtful conversation about the totality of the human condition, since everything is connected. This is one of many reasons I have donated more money to FDL than any other organization in my life. Thanks!
DefJef @ 76
Sex and sexual issues have long been used as issues in politics. These marriage acts between a man and woman being an example to get the conservatives to the polls.
Pach I don’t care who you love… I mean what genitals they have. Or whether you have sex or not. It simply does not matter to me. Nor does it matter to me about straights.
There is way too much made about sex. I am way past the hormone driven madness. I enjpy poeple for their humanity the intelligence, their creativity and so forth. I don’t want to be exposed to their sexuality or sexual orientation… it is irrelevant to me.
DefJef @ 77
Uh-oh. This is where someone pops in and says start your own f-n blog.
We’re just visitors. Don’t like tonites topic? Theres 18 Million other blogs. It’s like buffet brunch, eat what you like and move on.
Actually, since this is my home site, in the sense that Jane has given me space on the platform she created and backs my editorial judgment 100%, I think I’m in a pretty good position to determine what belongs on this site. If you don’t like it, I’ll let you do the math from there.
I say all this not to harsh the party buzz, but to make something clear, because there are other people here who enjoy the freedom to talk about their lives, loves and families, and I want to protect and sustain that for them.
And again, the post is not about sex, but sexuality. These are not the same thing.
bonkers @ 92
i agree – well said
In the Alan Simpson column I linked to in “Semper Fi, General Pace,” he refered to various polls stressing the same generational difference in acceptance of gays.
When I was in school, interracial relationships were the “political” issue when it came to personal life. Today, it’s different:
Queer Eye.
Gay-Straight Alliances.
Marriage in MA.
Melissa Ethridge.
GOPers with no attention to this generational shift are going to end up on the short end of the vote.
Sexuality has ALWAYS been political.
Great post Pach – keep it up.
Pachacutec @ 66
Write away, Pach!
When somebody says that you can’t own property or marry or will your property to who you want, all because of how you express your sexual orientation with consenting adult partners, THAT’s political.
itwasntme @ 93
MY 15 year old would quit summer camp sessions if the kids used homophobic language and didn’t get corrected by the counsellors. Though he’s straight, he felt totally unsafe in those environments.
From a professional psych perspective, re: developmental psychology, I heartily agree. It certainly can be, though helping a kid come to terms with his or her sexuality means helping them overcome such fears, no matter who they are.
If sex isn’t political, how come the Republicans tried to impeach Clinton over it?
DefJef @ 76
Even though I’m just a commenter (and a very minor one at that) I feel compelled to say this:
If you feel that some topics covered here are inappropriate, you’re entitled to your opinion. But I don’t think it’s your place to say whether or not certain topics should be covered here.
(Sorry Pach!)
DefJef @ 85
Well…
since we’re primates, we’re hard wired to notice other primates for whom we have a sexual attraction.
since we have a rather large…er….
central nervous system, our tropism towards the other primates (the ones we want to peel bananas with) affects our behavior in all sorts of interesting ways.
since we’re social animals, our sexual tropism is a big aspect of our social dynamics.
since our decisions about power are based in our social dynamics…
discussions of reading people’s sexuality are relevant here.
This Pach fellow had some ideas about why this relevant – he said it far better than I can.
In the very last paragraphs of his main post.
Funny thing, that.
Pach, are you aware of the situation in NH where the assumptive head of the NH Democratic Party was accused of possession of child pornography by a former friend and Republican rival?
-GSD
Political site. Gee, how many times have folks talked about music, cooking(lots of recipes), religion and belief, silly snarking, and other topics. It can’t be all politics all the time. We need breaks from that to regain and refresh our humanity.
The only time I ever think about it is if the subject is someone I want to date. Seriously, that’s it. But grew up in a gay mecca, and having same sex couples over for supper was routine.
ok, what about this guy ?
hey if I find the irrefutable on a Tony Perkins can I have Rupert Everett back on our team ? quid pro homo ?
I don’t read FDL much, for various reasons, but I (straight man/not a photographer/imagines that a ‘power bottom’ is not what I’d first imagined) clicked on this post because it’s, I dunno, kinda interesting.
And nice to get a little insight into the lives of prominent bloggers. I keep waiting for Chris Bowers’s karaoke video on YouTube.
Please don’t give DefJef a hard time, folks. I think I understand where he’s coming from. Sometimes people are made uncomfortable by open sexual display or discussion, whatever the gender preferences. And as you get older and the hormones subside (true for both men and women), sex talk becomes a lot less interesting.
Anyway, regarding gaydar, I’d say mine is about average. But my “nerdar” is excellent!
At the risk of stating the obvious, the descriptive headlines and graphics on FDL posts make it very easy for a potential reader to discern, in a couple of seconds at most, what the post is about. If it’s a subject in which one has limited or no interest, the decision of whether to read or move on seems to me a very simple one to make. Win-win, right?
DefJef:
Sex is the freight train running straight down the centre of identity/personality/psychology. It is not all we are, though it is extremely important to how we act. We must touch upon it from time to time. If it makes you feel uncomfortable let your cursor do the walking. Hats off to Pach for an interesting post. As for my gaydar: it goes past ten with anyone who virulently accuses others of too much interest in topics like, say, gaydar.
GSD @ 104
Yes, I am. As I understand it, the esconced party machine is standing behind him, and Paul Hodes (whom the state machine never supported anyway) has publicly called bullshit.
The state party, as I understand it, needs some blowing up.
I consider myself a feminist because I support the rights of oppressed women. I also support gay rights and generally opposed all forms of oppression and aggression including the abuse and slaughter of billions of animals.
I don’t think a discussion of “reading” people’s sexual orientation or gaydar has any relevance on this board. When Lindsay Graham acts like a nasty self hating gay then he should be called to the carpet for that. But as I mentioned there are many things to find disgusting about Lindsay Graham.
And I am not opposed to any discussion of sex or gender.. especially when there is an issue of discrimmination at hand in the news or if someone wants to point out something under the radar. But who cares about reading people gay or straightness?
And why is this important?
if sex isn’t political – explain why Katherine Harris started wearing tighter shirts when she ran for office.
(sorry – couldn’t resist)
Exactly – Like your first response “guess I should just shut up and sing” Too many people have a “homos are nice enough, but do they have to do all that GAY stuff” attitude and then they wonder why being gay is a political issue…
Pachacutec @ 83
dogeatdogi @ 68
You son’s comment is interesting. Today, CNN stated that some of the right wing religious are discussing whether an infant should have surgery in the womb, if it is diagnosed that the infant would be born gay.
Obviously, this is a major change in their thinking, as previously they’ve always stated that being gay is a choice.
Unfortunately, I wasn’t around to catch the names of the individuals discussing this – if they were disclosed.
ANyway, who thinks Gomer Graham is a homo?
I’d bet on it, personally.
AZ Matt @ 107
DING DING DING! Give the man a cigar!
Urban Pirate @ 118
me too.
jinny @ 116
Teh Gay can be fixed surgically? Or is that just pro-lifer code for abortion-of-undesirables?
OldCoastie @ 122
Did I read that your heart was all atwitter the other day? How’s that working out?
DefJef @ 35
I’m not answering for Pach, but I’m answering as to why this is important to me, a straight married with kids and a proto-typical suburban American life.
It’s important because it is easy to marginalize people who are different from ourselves when we don’t understand them and how very similar they are under the skin to ourselves. I see my own teenage angst about myself as a young woman when I hear about Pach’s own angst; I hear the same need for more role models in his comments that I felt in those days when women couldn’t expect to be more than teachers and nurses. How can I treat a fellow human who’s shared those same archetypal experiences as an “other”?
It’s important because it is this marginalization that has been used against us, to encourage us to fear, to see those who are like us under the skin as an “other”.
It’s important because being gay is like being female, being non-white, being something that is an “other” by virtue of birth, that can’t be changed and is part of the human condition, yet nonetheless can be used as a target.
It’s important because HYPOCRISY is the hallmark of the authoritarian regime that has dispossessed what is a majority of this country; among them there is a standard distribution curve of human sexuality, and yet they’d still use what they label as abnormal or deviant or irreligious as “other”, extending immunity to that which they possess in common with the rest of humanity;
It’s important because there are more of us combined who are female, gay or bisexual, non-white in this country than there are white straight males, and until we break through the myths about ourselves through openness, education and community, we will not empower ourselves to take our rightful place and bring true balance and equity to politics and government.
My gaydar goes off whenever I hear L.Graham and A. Gonzales. I got the same curious reaction as the above poster watching Peter Pace.
Oh, and to answer the question about ‘norms’, I have a two year old son, and am fairly constantly amazed by the resistance some people have to giving boys anything in pink, and dolls, and such. Because pink = gay, and gay = bad.
Phoenix Woman @ 120
Puff, puff, puff, — gasp! hack, hack!
Reading along on the comments here and trying to formulate how I feel about the various posts here at FDL . . .
I know that I value the breadth of the posts as well as the depth. I love that I can join in the discussion on a post by Pach or TRex on whatever topic. I especially love Christy’s “Pull Up a Chair” posts and regret that my schedule often means I can’t read them in time to join the discussion.
I’m inclined to resist any move to limit the range of topics here. I’ve been around (mostly lurking) long enough to trust that most of the posts will intrigue me, stimulate my thinking, and make me feel a part of this community.
Your post tonight, Pach, sent me back to my graduate school days in NYC when I first began to development my own gaydar. It’s not perfect, but it’s still pretty sharp, even in the wilds of Central Ohio.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0cwzVoaVT0
and goodnight
can someone please tell me what teh means – i never encountered it before i came to the lake.
Pach,
Go to Blue Hampshire and read up on it. There are several links downthread.
The accusers fell on their face after the GOP AG Kelly Ayotte, retained by Dem Governor Lynch, stated that the charges war groundless.
Well, the Republican operatives have used old video, some apparently from the early 80’s and also Buckley’s Myspace page to launch another repellent hit.
The hit job was good enough to send Hodes into the tall grass.
It is really horrendous.
-GSD
UP @ 122 – I’m not sure… still trying to get a better read on that sweet woman’s situation. But, I’ll find a way to get us out of our work world and someplace where we can at least chat… 3 days of “warm”, one of day of “not interested” as far as I can tell…
and me with my ancient, busted gaydar! I knew I shoulda taken out the extended warranty on that thing!
Educated Plaintiff @ 127
It’s “The” with kind of a hip-ironic connotation, if that makes any sense.
teh is a purposeful, playful, intentional typo of “the.”
Notta Flatlander @ 75
Okay, Detective. Two words for you.
Ralph Reed.
Do what most folks do. If it is a post that doesn’t interest you, surf a little while, it’ll change.
It’s not hard.
-GSD
Educated Plaintiff @ 128
It’s just a joke. I think it was a repetitive typo by someone on a right-wing blog (whom I remember not) that got picked up as a reference to their idiocy. Something like that.
Put this on the last thread, but there can never be enough laughter in the world:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/…..html#a8728
If you haven’t seen Colbert’s skewering of Rep. Westmoreland (one of the clueless Repubs from Fri’s hearing), it’s highly recommended. I can’t remember seeing such a thorough dismantling of someone on TV before. Wonder if Westmoreland’s “tough guy” talk at the hearing was somewhat of a response to this embarrassment? For future reference, we could get a couple of nicknames for the Georgia Congressman outta this clip. “Do Nothing-est” “No Georgia Peach” “3 outta 10″ Classic!
GSD @ 133
Yeah, if there’s a post that doesn’t grab me, I just skip it. It never even occurs to me to tell the poster to only talk about stuff that interests *me*…
It looks like we’re going to have to give DefJeff his subscription money back since we’re not writing what he thinks this blog is about.
Interesting – I am in an all-female band, which currently consists of two straights and three gays. We played last night at a girl bar in Long Beach, and on the ride home had some very interesting conversation. One girl (who we call “Flipper”) has a new girlfriend and “Flip” is her first lesbian relationship. She had never been to a lesbian bar before, and was somewhat taken aback. I have many gay friends, but have never actually sat down and discussed ‘nuts and bolts’ with them, so to speak, so it was fascinating to see our different perspectives.
We all came to the consensus that sexuality is aligned along a continuum, with some people entirely gay, some entirely straight, some flexible. I’ve never met anyone who actually changed their orientation, if the idea of same-sex (or opposite-sex) love were truly repellent to them. But a lot of people (more than people suspect!) are aligned somewhere between the two poles.
There was a huge variety of women in the club – some obviously butch, some extremely femme, but most somewhere in the middle. If I saw them in the street, my gaydar would not go off. And there were a few scattered straight couples in there as well.
“Flipper” doesn’t fit any obvious stereotypes. She has long hair, is short and athletic – not the least bit ‘girlie’ but not plaid-shirty, either. She doesn’t feel that she has to fit into some gay dress-code (although skirts or dresses are out of the question)- she dresses stylishly in a tailored sort of way, and she is extremely comfortable with herself, as a lesbian, as a woman, and as a person.
I know that I am not comfortable wearing clothes that make me look masculine, so I have to assume that some people are not comfortable wearing clothes that are ‘feminine’. I think we’re all born with an orientation that is a part of us and can’t be changed (no matter how hard people try to ‘pray the gay away’) but some of these orientations are more flexible than others.
TRex @ 137
Maybe you should wait for him to demand that you delete his account.
Ok, I don’t really post here, just lurk, but I have to say the tone of some of the complaints I’m reading tonight is extremely disturbing.
POINT 1. This is an online community. As such it discusses current culture as well as events. In the past 24 hours there have been posts about soda bread (Pull Up a Chair), and the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame (The Spin I’m In). I’ve read posts about fountain pens, recipes, hiking and music. And that’s why we ‘re all here.
POINT 2: In what world do you live in that sexuality isn’t a political issue? Do you think it’s an accident that gay marriage has been on the ballot in important elections? Do you think that civil liberties or personal rights are not political issues?
PS not that it matters, but I’m straight – but to riff on Donne, “any man’s discrimination diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind”
AZ Matt @ 126
Oh no! Can you put it out before TRex comes around?
(Smoking: the real reason the dinosaurs went extinct. ref Prof. Gary Larsen. op cit)
Phoenix Woman @ 104
That would make a great bumper sticker! Brilliant!
(OK, back to lurking mode)
g’night pups…
thank you, Rayne – that seems to be it exactly…
OldCoastie @ 133
From what Ive read, its Firemen, UPS guys, and Coasties that women (and men?) find most attractive.
BTW, I live in Montauk, and as a fisherman my interaction with, and respect for Coasties is pretty high. They’ve saved my ass a few times (busted it a few too). Where did you sail out of?
well thank goodness it’s only about sex . . .
in case it wasn’t mentioned today -
Gov. Spitzer declines NYC St. Pat’s parade
TRex @ 139
So TRex, how did tonight’s political dinner discussion go?
;)
I believe ‘teh’ is part of 1337 or leet speak that the hacker/tech community use
One of the values of this site is the wide range of topics it addresses and the wide range of people who come here to participate in the discussion of these topics.
We are fighting tooth and nail for free speech in this country. If we can’t speak of sexuality here, then where can we speak of it? If we can’t speak of family here, then where can we speak of it? If we can’t speak ill of the Bush administration here, then where can we speak of it?
DefJef — limiting subjects is a slippery slope; telling someone “you can’t talk about that” or “you shouldn’t talk about that” soon turns into “you can’t think that” or “you can’t do that.”
I happen to live in a place where sexuality is a non-subject. I moved here from the San Francisco Bay Area where it was somewhat less of a non-subject, but a non-subject nonetheless. When you think about how little actual intercourse defines who and what we are, it fades into the background. “Straight” people refer to their sexuality all the time. It should be so with everyone else.
What is interesting is that Dr King wanted a color blind world.. where race didn’t really matter.
That changed. Then race mattered and every race wanted to be celebrated as special. Fine.
My position about sexuality is more in line with what Dr Kink thought about race. I don’t want it to be an issue. I want character to be the issue.
But what we now have is the equivalency to “Black is beautiful” in the gay pride mantra. I am straight andmarried and my best friend, who died a few years ago was part of a gay couple and sexuality never was part of our discussions. Our relationship must have been very odd. We just did things friends do… meals sailing, trips, parties, concerts and so forth.
Maybe we are just from another generation?
Oh yeah, MORE TECH COVERAGE on FDL!
ok – thanx eli & pach – guess i’ll have to keep observing to fully “get” it.
& btw – while i am enjoying participating in this discussion – i don’t feel comfortable naming names of the famous on my gaydar. not in a such a widely read respected public forum. thinking about cut & paste yanno……….
smapdi @ 148
Which reminds me…
The Greatest Hamlet Adaptation Ever Made.
DefJef @ 151
What generation might that be?
Peterr @ 149
Yes Trex! How was the Band?
UP – most years out of Boston, some up in S. Portland, ME. and yes, we loved our fisherman (not that we ever went home with a bucket of scallops or anything! ;-)
montag @ 154
Not The Gayest Generation, that’s for sure.
Educated Plaintiff @
31
That was TRex, but it got unceremoniously cancelled. We should buy T a pen of his choice.
oh and Urban Pirate? Montauk is BEAUTIFUL! I took a year off from small boats to train boarding officers up and down the 1st District – nice country you got there.
DefJef @ 152
Have any conversations with questions like “How did you two meet?”
“Oh, we had this cute little game . . . ‘Marco’ . . .”
Oh, wait. That would be talking about sex.
I had a very nice time with the B-52’s. They were delightful people. They were the sweetest bunch of rock stars you ever saw. We did a three-hour pub crawl and really the closest we came to talking about politics was discussing Valerie’s testimony.
We talked a lot about music, though.
It was a night to remember.
DefJef and DeafByPills:
How homosexuals are treated in our society IS very political, and is made so by the very large, pollitically vocal “reborns”, who are determined to see not people, but sexuality, everywhere. They feel free to condemn all but their own rigidly prescribed sexual conduct, and literally turn everybody else into a version of Satan!
Fighting that takes personal AND political effort, since they want to pass laws forbidding stuff that is hurts nobody and is none of their damn business
Keep talking, Pach. The more we know, the more intelligent decisions we can make about how to live our lives honestly and fairly, like proper Americans.
Actually, DefJef, it seems you’re making your demand that the site cater to your editorial tastes to be the issue. You’ve made your point, and you’ve gotten your feedback. I hope you can accept it, or else you can email TRex for your money back.
And I’d appreciate it if you left kink out of this.
Terry Olson @ 162
Actually, it was suddenly on again, Terry. Please see my comment above.
Trex,
Did you see any bikini-whales?
-GSD
(and now with the linky….)
the real reason dinosaurs went extinct
DefJef,
Pach is a self admitted button pusher. Guess what ? ; )
TRex @ 163
F’rinstance?
Great one, Pach. I LOVE Paul Lind.
Nice to hear about the B-52s, TRex.
Going to bed now.
DefJef, I think the answer is yes, there is a generational difference. See also my comment @ 112.
TRex, I’m so glad you were able to go out and have fun with the B-52s last night :)
GSD @ 166
or a shy tuna?
OldCoastie @ 160
aha, an east coaster. I had you pegged for oregon inlet or puget sound.
I bet you say it skol-lops. Mmmmm. We get lots here too.
‘night, tommy yum… join us one evening for brandy and cigars?
NO NO. Only black or white. No gray. You’re either with us or your with the evil doers.
Alicia @ 142
actually, UP, I’m born and bred So Cal, but I really dug the NE.
kirk murphy @ 175
We landed on No Worries Atoll.
Urban Pirate @ 172
Is there such a thing as baydar?
Eli @
123
Didn’t hear the whole piece as I was late and running to get out of the house.
OldCoastie @ 177
With pleasure, but too tired tonight.
For me, maybe cigs and champagne.
Hi tommy yum!
dogeatdogi @ 68
Bingo!
BTW, DefJef: I am really asking, and I mean no rancor…
Who tries to constrain ANY topic on someone elses blog? Who decides what is someone elses cup of tea?
I would suggest that your life experiences (including education, dating habits, family life, etc.) help define your public policy views, a very widely discussed topic here. And your experiences are both similar and different from everyone else on the planet.
hmm.
The evil-doers would be the ones having all the fun?
I’ll have two, please.
start_beating_around_the_bush @ 176
TRex @ 178
Sounds Tropical… .
Join the Coast Guard, see the coast.
Peterr @ 171
Oh, just that I met some of my heroes and they were kind and gentle and friendly and not arrogant or diva-ish or self-absorbed at all. They were my new friends, not a bunch of Snotty Famous People.
That to me is worthy of note.
When I moved to this small town in NJ, I went into one of the antique shops in town. The elder gentleman working there started a conversation with me. I mentioned that I moved into town, and was checking things out.
There was a long pause, and then he asked, “Are you single?”
“Yes” I replied
“Have you been single you’re whole life?” he asked.
“As a matter of fact, yes” I replied with a big smile.
He went on to tell me about all the other single men who have been single their whole lives who lived in town. Finally, he mentioned about the security guard who was about my age and build. I thanked him for his time and left.
It was an interesting experience. I do believe I set his gaydar off, and he started talking in code. For his generation that was the way to do it.
It’s getting better. There are hate crimes on the books now, employers include sexual orientation in their employment statements and offer domestic partnership benefits, and now, some states are offering legal recognition that straight people take for granted. NJ being the latest.
So yes sexuality is political. Gay, lesbians and transgender people don’t choose to be who we are, just as straight people don’t choose to be straight. If we had our choice, we wouldn’t make it political.
cbl @ 147
that spitzer is makin’ us crazy here upstate.
we love him on jan 1 for kicking butt his 1st hour in office – but now he’s agreed to a casino in the catskills.
TRex @ 187
And worthy of remembering.
To new friends! *ding*
DefJef @ 154
And two words in response for you.
Matthew Shepherd.
We are very clearly not in Dr. King’s world yet across this country. How fortunate for you that you are there, but for most of red America, that’s not the case. We have to have an open dialogue or we will never get there; burying or ignoring our human condition didn’t help a black man like Amidou Diallo and it didn’t help a gay man like Matthew.
smapdi @ 149
thanx for that – made my eyes cross :) (i am SO not a techie!)
Millineryman says
March 17th, 2007 at 9:29 pm
Very interesting. Yes, that’s real old school.
It also gets to the heart of my post, which is about social norms and the ways people relate to each other and themselves.
Wasnt paul lynd a notorious misogynist?
Eli- thanks for the link. Ophelia just called someone hamster.
Sex as a political tool is making a comeback. Somehow it was missing when Jimmy/Jeff was “roaming” the back halls at the WH playing “giddyup cowboy”.
I didn’t say any topic should be verbotton here at the Lake. I started my comments by asking why this comes us as much as it does?
I came here many many months ago because of the cross posting of Jane on HuffPo and the election race between Ned Lamont and loserman and then it was just Jane and Christy I believe. I have seen the hit counter hit the sky and new “editors” added and the range of topics expand.
I don’t care about bird feeders or recipes or even fountain pens, but I don’t deny people the right to discuss them. I usually don’t read those unless the topic veers into something which interests me and they often do.
And as far as the intersection with sexual politics and “the other politics” I also acknowledge that this exists.
I simply do not understand the relavancy of a discussion of a “gaydar”… reading gay people.
start_beating_around_the_bush @ 179
Mmm-mmm. Loves me some fine evildoers, since I’m obviously not with them…whoever them is…
smapdi @ 192
Hamlet For The Leet is truly one of the most brilliant things ever. And Ophelia has some great lines.
DefJef @ 195
If you don’t care, why the fuss?
TRex @ 162
kate live only a couple of miles from me
DefJef @
63
Curious, does anyone know what Linday Graham’s official stance on Gay Marriage?
I thought so.
somethin’ tells me DefJef isn’t listening.
OldCoastie @
205
What?
She was so wonderful. Teeny-tiny. And she was dressed in layers of wonderful, touch-me fabrics, velvets, and a super-soft quilted silk Chinese jacket. Her hair is soft, her voice is soft, her skin is luminous and moon-pale.
I just wanted to scoop her up and bury my face in her tummy like a kitty. I bet her house is full of gorgeous pillows with tassels and stuff.
I can’t hear you, I’ve got a banana in my ear.
Heh.
I still love that joke.
The WaPo editorial for Sunday needs some FDL attention. They are drinking Kool-Aid again.
Pachacutec @ 203
Ring ring ring ring ring ring ring…
DeafByPills @
83
Pardon me, can you tell me what the bill for the bandwidth was last month? I assume you know this, because you’ve most certainly paid that bill, since you are now the official Topic Police™ Administrator thereof.
Pachacutec @ 195
It was quite a welcome. It really put things in perspective.
This is about the threshold of my gaydar, but as a straight male I’ve never really had to develop it strongly (no matter how much folks in HS thought I may have been playing for the other team).
That said, I love living here in the bay area where folks can be a lot more open about that sort of thing, and have political power to back it. Yet, even here, good, decent couples still don’t have the rights that I do just by the nature of my sexual preference. It’s insane. I’m not getting married until they can.
Anyhow, don’t listen to the naysayers, this stuff absolutely belongs here.
AZ Matt @ 205
Idiots.
Pachacutec @ 192
reminds me of the movie w/ shirley mac & audrey hepburn – (4got the title). lesbian version of old school
Jacqrat @ 210
GET ‘EM, JACQUI!!
RAAAAAAAAHHHRRR!!
**CHOMP!!**, **CHOMP!!**
Educated Plaintiff @ 210
The Children’s Hour, maybe?
Educated Plaintiff @ 211
Lillian Hellman’s (Oops! editing) “The Children’s Hour?” Yup. That was it. (shame-faced blush)
Gertrude Stein’s “Alice in Wonderland”?
TRex @ 203
ive never been to her house – she runs a B&B
montag @ 213
Looks like that’s what The Children’s Hour was based on.
Eli: Hah!
Reminds me of Steve Goodman, as it’s the kind of thing he might have written.
Pachacutec @ 217
Actually, it’s Raffi, sped up.
I discovered it via Olbermann…
Eli @ 213
yes – ty
I am indeed listening and I do think that “red america” needs to be cured of its homophobia. I don’t live there so I am less exposed to racism but it is everywhere even here in nyc.
I am not the least bit anti gay, but perhaps I don’t need to learn that lessen… and it feels to me that this is preaching to the choir.
But I am going to turn in for the night and let you all carry on with the topic.
sleep well.
Eli @ 217
Getting m’ plays and movies mixed up. Happens to us old farts with gay friends. :)
DefJef @ 116
It is important because Pach chose it for his post tonight. Thanks Pach, I have excellent gay-dar.
Is this thing still on?
Two last points, and then it’s beddy-bye time for me:
First, feminists have been saying that sexuality is political for the past, oh, four decades at least, so it’s not a brand-new concept. I enjoy reading Pach and TRex, and have no objections to posts like this one. But when you write about the real or presumed sexual behavior of public figures, it should be in the context of Republican hypocrisy, for example. There are other sites for that excel for plain old celebrity gossip.
Second, here we all are late on a Saturday night discussing sex as we sit alone at our computers. Hmmm…
DefJef,
We’re humans and we are mammals. We “read” each other all the time, it helps us survive and bond with others, and warns us too.
I’m a straight woman, and it has served me well for many years. It’s that little voice that tells you “cross the street NOW” and then the person you observed 2 blocks away, when he gets closer, you can hear him talking to himself.
The 1970s Women’s Studies classes, oh my, how political the sexual was!
TRex – so glad you had fun!
Pachacutec @ 217
You can hear the Raffi original in this Alarming Video about Bananaphone’s potential harmful effects.
I don’t get the sneaky approach to the topic.
If you think Lindsey Graham is gay, why not headline it?
What’s with the sneakiness?
Eli @ 223
My kids found it on the web – I have heard it a million bazillion times, but it’s very cute.
“Topic Police” I love it.
Alicia @ 233
Wait, I have been listening to raffi for 5 minutes?
I have my naysaydar switched off.
as a straight person w/ close gay friends the most important reasons i care/educate myself about the politics of being gay in america are:
not being able to have your partner insured under your med insurance.
not having the same rights if your partner passes away
difficulty adopting/foster parenting
being gay in the military
itwasntme @ 230
Good thing the “Grammar Police” have nothing to do with them. :)
WaPoo:
The decision was right, the execution wrong.
Watch for this alot in the next few election cycles from Repugs. It allows them to say Shrubya caused all this mayhem, not Repugs. Elect us and we’ll reclaim the conservative values of the Republic Party. Obviously from the WaPoo editorial above, and others already, we can see this plan is underway.
We gotta do everything we can to not let this sh*t take hold anymore! Every reader here has got to get people off the Conglomerate Media teat, and have them try alternatives like FDL, Air America, etc. It’s urgent!
nite def jef
Educated Plaintiff @ 232
I think all of this is unconstitutional; violation of the equal protection clause. But what do I know?
I’m just glad the Fashion Police seem to have lost track of me.
Suzanne @ 242
you and me both!
EDIT: I meant me, not you…!
:-)
That’s it. Time to fire up a blunt and head to Sadly, No!
bonkers @ 234
Disastrous ideas, disastrously executed, are the hallmark of the Republican Party.
AZ Matt @ 208
Fred Hiatt: Liar, moron or both?
Suzanne @ 238
They’ve arrested me so many times, I’ve lost count. Good thing I’m a guy. They tend to let us off easy. :)
itwasntme @ 234
It’s ok, they’re totally outranked by the Karma Police.
Someone mention Steve Goodman? On dialup, YouTube is too much for me, but old fashioned lyrics still work . . .
Buenos Noches Amigos! Hasta Manana!
Alicia @ 229
I did.
It was exactly what you would hope meeting some of your heroes would be like. Like friends you’ve had for years but just got to meet.
OC, I knew what you were saying. I’m bi-lingual and can read both male and female :)
montag @ 238
I usually try to avoid the police, but not anymore!
Actually, I’m wondering exactly what WaPo means by “The easy way out is to blame President Bush, Vice President Cheney or former defense secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld: The decision was right, the execution wrong.”
I think they might just be saying that “The decision was right, the execution was wrong” *is* the easy way out, in which case I have to agree with them. But such an argument would be very much out of character.
DefJef, There are lots of blogs to read.
I don’t think this is gaydar, but if I really, really like a guy, there’s a good chance he’s gay. My closest friendships tend to be with gay guys (I’m a straight female).
The boldest/baldest fiction to me, in this WaPo ed about Iraq…
Having rolled the dice on what everyone understood to be an enormous gamble…
Gamble? I don’t recall the invasion being considered a gamble. “Over in weeks” was the theme I heard. Where do they get this?
Check out the Flag picture on Drudge. Can you spot the ghostly Bush Image?
Peterr @ 244
How about Dave “My Attorney Bernie” Frischberg? And does anyone remember Jim Kopp?
Amazing how it went from a slam dunk to an enormous gamble.
Suzanne @ 252
oh, if I were a guy, I might have an excuse… but tonight I’m just very inarticulate.
Suzanne @ 255
Technically, I think the slam dunk referred to the validity of the intelligence. Although “enormous gamble” would have been a lot more apt there, too.
Suzanne @ 256
Uh, huh. Redefining fuck-ups is such fun….
did anyone go to the march in dc? or anywhere else? wonder what the real numbers for turnout were.
can’t believe this week marks 4 years…. so terribly sad….
Fred Hiatt, still using Donald Graham’s paper to cover both their asses.
Well, it is toilet paper, so they’re not far off. . .
montag @ 246
I’ve done hard time. I went all Zsa Zsa on one Fashion Cop. Slapped him right across the jaws for questioning my right to wear straight leg jeans in 1998 instead of boot cut.
I got a year in the pen for assaulting an officer and six years probation for resisting a trend.
As a mom I’ve had to deal with the issue of sexuality with my kids over the last handful of years; they are in the thick of it right now, one becoming a teen this year and the other wrestling with what it is to be a competent third-grade boy. Funny, my daughter is so self-assured about her feminity, just less assured about social pecking order. I’d expected her to be the one with greater doubts. But my son is at an age where all the boys are becoming soooo competitive about everything; we have an hour-long conversation after school every day that is increasingly focused on competition. It’s so hard to tell him during his afterschool brain dumps to worry less about competition with others and worry about simply doing better; I know he hears some of what I’m saying, but I know I’m speaking both as a parent and as someone on the other side of the gender divide, where we see things differently by virtue of our biology.
It pains me so much to hear him doubting himself, his strength, his capacity…and what if he’s gay? However will I help him be okay with that when he’s not even okay with how good or bad he is at sports? To my mind, it’s no wonder that so many self-hating gays become Republicans; they compartmentalized their sexuality in order to be good at something, and winning may have been more important in making them feel competent than their sexuality. I can see where that could happen now that I’m a mother more than I think I could before.
But self-hating compartmentalization is not healthy. It’s denial, and it hurts others. Until we get to a point where being able to talk about being gay is easy and comfortable within the straight community, we’re not going to raise all our children to be healthy, well-adjusted adults who love others as much as they love themselves. In other words, we’ve got about 20 years of parenting ourselves and our children yet ahead of us to get this right.
I know this is a little off topic but what do you make of the rumors that W is bisexual?
Neil @ 268
I think he’s asexual.
News Grinder @ 269
I think he’s pansexual, he fucks up everything he touches.
Neil @ 267
I’d say you were half right.
I personally think those younger than 35 are much more at ease with who they are and who others are. Like with Obama. the older ones like a Sharpton worry about if he’s black enough and has creds. Those under 40 don’t care. Older, repukes think he’s muslim so they are afraid or despise him. Younger people could care less if it were true. The younger ones also relate to the global image. This says alot about themselves. They are totally comfortable with people for who they are. And both sexes are at ease with themselves and their sexuality.
I see the right’s obsession on gay as a death knell for them with the younger gen. Even if the over 50s are paranoid and hateful (gop), younger ones think they are stupid.
Funny, cause the older ones were the ones who kicked the door open on sex, gays, openness, civil rights, open mindedness, ect. and today, so many have become the opposite. More controlled and uptight than their parents ever were. And alot more paranoid. Now, I’m 50 so I know. I am as liberal as I was as a teen but, many of my gen have become so ick! I feel I have more in common with my kids generation and people under 40 in general than with my own.
TRex @
251
It’s so cool when that happens. It doesn’t always, but when it does, it’s incredible. I have been a Patrice Rushen fan ever since I was starting out as a player in my teens (there weren’t many female role-models to look up to back then), and got to meet her a few years ago, and she couldn’t have been nicer. She actually invited me to lunch and we had a really great ‘girl-hang’.
Then sometimes you meet people that you have idolized and they turn out to be total toads…
Neil @ 268
Oy.
I mean, ouch.
Now THERE’s a topic and image that needs banning.
Neil @ 268
I’ve thought that forever, but what do I know… I think for him, it’s a power trip only.
Rayne @ 262
I wonder if that’s a variation on the reason why so many draft-dodgers seem to end up as Republican hawks…
Gaydar?…It’s an ineffable thing for me, but if I am in possession, it was developed when I was much younger as a bouncer in a local gay bar in my then town.
Those were the days (more prevalent than now, but not far gone at all) when certain types took sport in the bash, with some babyface trolling as bait.
And unfortunately, ‘Serve and Protect’ was not a service granted to those of the lavender persuasion by the local constabulary.
So, every night at the door I got to weed out the bashers and straight night trippers looking for a cheap freaky deak on the wild side…and render them inoperative should they prove to be fistically inclined.
You know, I really liked kicking the shit out of mouthy gay bashers…and I liked it even better when the head bouncer (firmly in possession of some 3 dollar bills to make change) did it too…Being a firm believer in equal opportunity for all.
;>)
CD @
257
Gee, I seem to remember that, too. Plus, the only comparison we had at the time was Poppy’s Gulf War, which was ‘in-and-out’, and a real war against an actual country. I think many of us expected the same.
OldCoastie @ 270
If it’s got a bald head, he’ll fuck it.
I still say W is a watcher.
I like you, Darkblack…
Send me forget me nots…
To help me to remember.
News Grinder @ 265
I think he’s an asshole. Doesn’t matter which way he swings if he’s a jerk. Uh, sorry. “No-nothing jerk.”
DefJef @ 76
DefJef @ 196
Uh, DefJef, this meaning is what I took away from the last line of your comment 76.
But words are symbols, and hence subject to misinterpretation.
Today at our Spring Equinox gathering, part of the ritual involved finding a partner with whom to gaze into each others’ eyes – and feel that person.
One of the people I shared this with is a lovely shy person – and I’m pretty shy.
So that little thrill I felt looking into her eyes – what does it mean? And the giggles we kept having…any meaning there?
When the gathering was over, on the path to our cars my gaze parnter (I still don’t know her name) passed… I told her looking in her eyes was fun – and I hadn’t felt that shy in a long time.
And she blew me a little kiss…
So I’ll be thinking and feeling about this… and maybe thinking of what to wear to the next ritual. Beltane. Heh. (Then I look in the mirror and hope for fog that day….)
I watch my talented activist friends in the wonk stages of their advocacy. Some of them are globally recognized experts – and communicate like it. Reams of data – no emotional connection.
The other side gets up and pulls the pin on a limbic grenade – “guess y’all in the office have time to read that – on the ranch we’re too busy working”.
Facts don’t matter then.
So I’m glad to see Pach and other posters here wrestle with subjective quesions. I’d like to see progressives do a lot more wrestling with “squishy” quesitons about identification and attraction – ’cause armed with compelling facts alone, progressives keep losing.
So a war-dodging Ronnie Reagan can be made to seem macho: compared to nuclear submarine captain Carter.
We can’t seem to figure out the limbic music as well as our opponents can.
Now if some of the wise people here could just suss out what went on in ritual today, I’d be really tickled….
[But now I’m starting to try and nudge the content. :) ]
DefJef, I’ve enjoyed your participation in the past.
I hope the comments tonight illustrate the many ways in which Pach’s choice of topic tonight is of meaning and significance to this community and to progressive efforts, and I hope you’ll keep adding to those efforts here.
Eli @ 279
Ding!
I was wondering how long it would take to have a Gannon/Guckert reference tonight!
vwcat @ 268
you’re hangin’ out w/ the wrong over 50 set. come on over – we’re all ultra libs in my hood ;)
bonkers @ 280
It’s more of an overall bald head fetish. He’s fascinated by them, and rubs them every chance he gets. It’s creepy.
Eli: “bald head”?? Uhhhh, I won’t go there…;)
TRex @ 282
Yep – they actually tried to rip her off for that song on Men In Black – they recorded Will Smith’s rap version, and then a week before the movie came out, they called her, told her they were using her sample and tried to railroad her into just signing it away. Fortunately, she simply said, “No, you’re not – speak to my representation” and got the deal she deserved.
shrub is typically creepy in any situations that involve interactions with others.
bonkers @ 283
No, seriously…
Eli @ 276
Could be, it’s as good an explanation as anything else, although I would have pegged it less as compartmentalization than a weird form of sublimation.
AZ Matt @ 209
Fred doesn’t drink the stuff, he mainlines the original unsweetened powder, red dye #5 and all.
I’m intrigued by the glancing reference to Petraus (sp?) invoking the Powell Doctrine – the one that George, Dick and Don decided to ignore. Somehow I doubt the President’s new favorite general has had the opportunity to hash that over with the c-i-c.
kirk murphy @ 281
Or at least a nice sacred grove of trees, with some deep shadows?
Great story!
Eli @
291
YIKES!
Time for an old Inca to enter the land of dreams.
I’ll catch up with y’all in the morning! Thanks for the party.
Eli @ 291
That’s a funny page. I wasn’t talking about that kind of head though…
Now if only someone had pictures of that!
night, Pach – thanks.
Eli (291) — ugh, now I have to do something to purge those images out of my retinas before I hit the hay, or I’ll have nightmares.
Blecchhh…
nite all~
ive enjoyed spending the late nite hours here @ the lake.
pach – thanx for the thread (& thanx for all the live blooging too!)
Man. Turn your back for a minute and suddenly you’re 300 comments behind.
Though I have also bagged my man limit and am not currently on the hunt, gaydar can be an amusing exercise. Aside from obvious mannerisms, it’s amusing when you spot a pair of guys in the grocery store who are just a little too close. Most straight men doing stuff together, even good friends, maintain a bubble of personal space between them, and when you see two men who aren’t doing that, you suspect it’s because they’re used to getting a lot closer. Without clothes.
But the gaydar doesn’t always work. I was riding the bus to work one morning and had an “A-ha!” moment, noting two guys in the seat ahead of me who were sitting just a little too close together. But then I heard they were speaking German to each other, and had to put it in the category of “not proven.” I just didn’t know non-American male body language well enough to even make a guess.
Educated Plaintiff @ 296
And we, your comments.
Cheers.
g’ night, EP
CD @ 257
It was supposed to pay for itself with oil revenues, we’d be greeted as liberators, flower petals strewn before us, etc.
They’re just lying.
Rayne @ 294
My work here is done.
OldCoastie @ 275
I think its true. I think he likes young ones and I think you’re right, its about power for him.
Well deserved rest, Pach. Night.
If TRex is still up, I finally have to ask: because I’m not in the Athens, GA, listening area, what do you do at the NPR-affiliated radio station. Are you hosting a music program, announcing, or what?
Just idle curiosity.
Eli @ 302
After your comments on the last thread about sermons . . . I’d say you’ve done enough for one night.
;)
Pachacutec @ 53
Maybe it’s just me who does this, but I inveritably end up assuming a kid like that is gay, and if it turns out he “isn’t” gay, I then assume he is in denial or hasn’t figured it out yet.
NormalLiberal @ 293
I think I just found video of Fred back when he was trying to break into the biz. I’m sure he’s hoping no one sees these pictures!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nBeUGqeYsQg
montag @ 238
I know, my grammar is atrocious. Sorry.
Jacqrat @ 308
Umm, I wasn’t trying to identify suspects. :)
g’night all!
g’night, Peterr – sleep well.
I thought Rush Limbaugh was Deaf by Pills.
Notta Flatlander @ 75
Definitely.
Suzanne @ 260
Exactly. Was a great idea if you ignored reality.
montag @ 307
Every weekday from 5 to 7pm eastern, I host All Things Considered, but that just means I come on every ten minutes or so and do the weather and station ID’s.
From ten to midnight eastern, I host a classical music show called Night Music.
http://wuga.org
g’nite peterr -
pleasant dreams!
and thanks for your kind words…
TRex @ 319
Uh, you don’t want to know. Big satellite dish belt buckle territory. Drugstore cowboy land.
Too bad. That’s all I got. You guys need a better webmaster. I’ll check in, if I can, though.
DefJef @ 86
I have an idea. Why don’t you go read something else?
Wherefore art thou?
If you go to WUGA, use a non-Mozilla browser. It doesn’t like Mozilla for some reason.
Hilarious!
Funny how heated a discussion about sexuality can become. My two cents say that it is wholly appropriate to talk about all our selves on this blog, whether we are cooking or looking at birds or remembering our grandparents.
My best gaydar story comes from a meeting with the inlaws. My husband’s eldest sister is a dynamic, loud, and outspoken nun and head mistress. How surprised was I when we spent our first meeting arguing about politics, not sharing the wine and making inappropriate jokes.
Afterwards I said to my husband, “Gosh I like your sister.” and then reflected, “You do know she’s a lesbian, right?”
Great topic, and I love “Marco” because it is such a secret couple thing to do, of course you know that it is SO clever you are certain to read in the New Yorker within the year. Sorry.
TRex @
141
Naw, DefJef, whether he means to or not, has contributed mightily to the discussion. I mean, what interest would there be if everybody thought alike? What point? Dissent is a great force for clarification of one’s views. Good to have him here IMHO.
G’nite, all.
kirk murphy – I loved your story earlier… what is it about the gazing? and a blown kiss?
I think we forget about those sweet, simple things and it is such a surprise.
Night Pach!
Loved your post. :)
Pachacutec @ 274
I know Pach, sometimes my curiosity overpowers my better judgment. After this thread I will not raise it again.
It is so cool to hangout with you and TRex, Jane, Christy, Marcy, Swopa et al and the regulars who post in the comments. This is a nice community eager to engage in open conversation for fun and for a purpose.
DefJef at 116. Why are you still reading FDL tonight? If the discussion is not to your liking and/or understanding, try going to another blog where, hopefully, you will find likeminded conversants. Why stay here and make yourself unhappy? Doesn’t sound like good mental health practice to me.
Wonderful post, Pach.
good night, all.
oh geez, I come back from walking the cutest dog in the world and everyone is going to bed…
OldCoastie @ 328
good night OldCoastie -
glad you enjoyed my
littlelong digression…and noticed the magic all around us.
Thanks for sharing your vivid pictures of magic on the waters.
TRex–
Mozilla ain’t so bad. Can read the web “Night Music” just fine. You da man. :)
oh, my lord.
i just had the most campy movie experience in years. just…wow.
chicago dyke @ 335
Did it involve Newton’s virginity?
chicago dyke @ 332
Please, tell us!
….and thanks for your Goddess post – it rocked.
Happy Equinox & Ostara!
Pachacutec @
23
Okay, I’m straight, but nobody is completely straight, and anyway I say Definitely Not Gay about that guy.
But, um, do we ever get to find out the answer? Does this test get graded?
no, it’s “300.”
don’t ask me why i went to see it, but in truth, i’m glad i did.
everything you’ve ever thought about the closeted right is true. seriously, it’s shocking, it’s so…gay.
montag @ 333
Is that from the same muse who inspired “A baby’s arm holding an apple”….?
EDIT: [oops! chicago dyke, our comments crossed in the interTubes.
The ‘net is so huge, and still growing. Hope the Tubes don’t run out of Burroughs.]
kirk murphy @ 339
Umm, no, not the Tubes.
Just an idle comment about a previous post to remind CD that she, like the rest of us, stands on the shoulders of giants, which she doesn’t wish to admit.
i’m sorry, what am i not admitting? she said she was 18…
i love it when people tell me how well they know my mind.
montag @
321
TRex @ 319
Wherefore art thou?
If you go to WUGA, use a non-Mozilla browser. It doesn’t like Mozilla for some reason.
———————————————————————————————————————–
Uh, you don’t want to know. Big satellite dish belt buckle territory. Drugstore cowboy land.
Too bad. That’s all I got. You guys need a better webmaster. I’ll check in, if I can, though.
———————————————————————————————————————–
If you use your speakers on your computer you can link into scores of very good noncommercial radio stations with all kinds of music.
http://www.radio-locator.com/
My favorites (for the diversity) is KDVS or WFMU…but if you want a particular format you can find it on the above site.
Educated Plaintiff @
117
Silly Wabbitt: because she didn’t buy new clothes after her boob job. They fit tighter.
/snark
Nah guys. Don’t confuse me with a right winger, aka rush limbagh. I’m just saying that by talking about this stuff; it just gives them more ammo to use against you. I’d rather just shut them up. Ya know?
I’m tired of hearing about how being gay is such an issue in politics. In my opinion, it’s none of their fucking business whether someone prefers a woman or a guy. Honestly, I’m just trying to save ya from being attacked by those on the right. But the guy’s got a bit of courage to talk about stuff like that, given this political climate. I respect him for it. I just think that by talking about it is just giving them ammo. Make any sense?
Damn st. paddy’s. Too much guiness. Hah.
cinnamonape @ 342
Imontag @
321
TRex @ 319
suppose I will have to add that to my list of stations… since over the air here is all shitkicker stuff.
Wherefore art thou?
If you go to WUGA, use a non-Mozilla browser. It doesn’t like Mozilla for some reason.
Uh, you don’t want to know. Big satellite dish belt buckle territory. Drugstore cowboy land.
Too bad. That’s all I got. You guys need a better webmaster. I’ll check in, if I can, though.
If you use your speakers on your computer you can link into scores of very good noncommercial radio stations with all kinds of music.
http://www.radio-locator.com/
My favorites (for the diversity) is KDVS or WFMU…but if you want a particular format you can find it on the above site.
Thanks, but I was referring to TRex’s mention of Mozilla problems with his station’s web site.
It’s not a problem.
Cheers.
Interesting discussion here.
“Topic Police”, do they also get a shiny badge ?
More seriously, I can’t say how good my gaydar is, but I can remember the moment it came into existence. When I was 7 or 8 back in the late 60’s, my mom said I had to dress up for dinner because a work colleague of my dad would be having dinner with us. The colleague, I long forgot his name, also came with another guy. I remember being impressed with how elegant they were in dress and manner, which was in comtrast with all the males of my family. What really blew me away was hearing them casually describe the various ordinary things they did together because I suddenly became aware that there men in the world who did the same ordinary things together that my parents did. The “ordinary things” here were a holiday and house cleaning.
Afterwards, whenever I saw a particularly well-groomed man, I would wonder whether he would also house clean and go on holidays with
another man. It took me about 5 or 6 years before I connected any of this with sexuality.
If you thought the first Y-M-C-A video was funny — this is *classic*. Hate to tip my hand, but Lego Y-M-C-A.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Zju…..mp;search=
First clicked through on Lindsey for a frisson of gossipy gaydar experience. Checked his website, and said “Oh My” at the pic there.
But very grateful to have seen that clip. He’s fantastic. Very brave of him to do that, and clearly demonstrates real integrity, saying “The US would be find w/out Linsey Graham as a Senator, but we won’t be fine if we toss out principles like the Geneva Conventions.” I’m impressed, and shall remain so.
Pach, great topic!
I for one am psyched that the generation coming up (and all others in the forward-thinking set) are vibing with the “Teh” generation…mixing it up linguistically as much as mixing the gender and attraction continuums. If you ask me, all of the mixing has the effect of scrambling the “computers.” — which as a damnbiguous indie myself I absolutely grok!
Think of the gender & orientation impact on social dynamics as Recombinant DNA. Recombining of the ever-repressive yawndom of 0’s and 1’s signifies hope for our evolution as a collective psyche, imho – it gives us alacrity that defies the fetidness, waste and disease-proneness of a stagnant pond. Twist the pencil within the rubber band one more time and you have a concept like “power bottom.” The more you twist the pencil, the more energy in the rubber band. That’s gender, genesis, generativity.
The next evolution it seems, is for people of any community to be able to step back and allow people to flow in and out of the group as they will, if nothing else than for the sake of self-discovery.
If you can do that and not lose your own sense of identity or security, then we’ve gone a long way towards actualizing the right to SELF-DETERMINATION.
And that, baby, is POLITICS!
How’s my gaydar? How’s your minding your business?
late and jumping ahead from about #100 comments…..
Why, oh why… ok I had you all going, didn’t I? *s*
Of course it’s political and its personal for many, even this free spirited heterosexual. In Little Rock this week both the Senate and House voted by overwhelming margins to ban the rights of gay couples to adopt no matter what. If you are partnered as gay couple and your sibling dies with specific request in place for you to care for their child, the State now says no dice. This bill still has to be signed or vetoed by the newly elected Gov. but both the Senate and House are majority Dem and no one has a clue what the new D- Gov. will do. The courts have knocked down similar legislation in the past but its been another sock in the gut for so many here. (everyone I know is upset about this, to put it mildly, though someone in a local blog cited a poll saying 45 percent of the AR electorate support this kind of ban)
I for one am so ready for a third party…. but I digress.
As for my gaydar I sure wish it was better in re women. When I am attracted to a particularly lovely feminine type, well, it’s about a 50/50 chance she prefers her girlfriend. The country is in an amazing discussion right now and in another ten to twenty years, I think much of this will be settled. When I see the poll peterr linked to a couple of days back and reflect on my observations of how far we have evolved in the last twenty years I have hope the next step has to do with dumping a lot of hangups this country has about sex in general, its ridiculous, tiresome and long overdue.
When we look back at this era I think we will have the Roves and fundies to thank for escalating the demise of this particular divisive element in our culture.
As for Lindsey, dayam, who does he think he is kidding? Like TRex says its the hypocracy!
Thanks Pachacutec for saying what’s on your mind.
g’nite, pups – sleep well.
What a great convo!! So very glad I jumped in the Lake! Sorry it’s so late into the comments, tho… As to the original post’s question, as a 20-something gay man, my gaydar is over-sensitive. My Jewish male college friends would compete for being the “most Jewish” based on how many of us bois thought they were gay. Also, non-American (and Californians, actually) set off my (and my peers’) gaydar.
As my college gaggle would say, “gay until proven straight.”
It’s been a long St. Patrick’s day. Good night, all!
My gaydar’s fine. How’s your wardar? The news blackout on fdl and other liberal blogs this weekend is disgusting. There’s a war on, and there was a mass anti-war demonstration in Washington today, more around the world, more planned tomorrow. This is the 4th anniversary of the invasion! The lefty blogs are silent, apparently uninterested and uninvolved. Sure, I’m interested in other issues, but the war is #1 in every sense. As far as I’m concerned, fdl and most of the others are now irrelevant.
My daughter is 17, her generation does not seem to have the hangups with sexual identity that generations past have.
DefJef @
19
i don’t know what anybody else will say in response to this but i’m going to comment now, before i read the rest.
Gay people talk about this topic, i think, because they are ridiculed and ostracized. this has been so for thousands of years. gayness is a political issue. it is a social issue. the Republican Fascist Party makes it a political issue, and they are proven over and over again what hypocrites they are. Anne Coulter makes it an issue. She attempted to beat John Edwards over the head with it just a few weeks ago.
In short, sexual politics is politics, and it isn’t going away, whether Pachacutec or TRex stop talking about it or not. I am not gay but i appreciate the fact that FDL is open to people of whatever orientation. it’s OK to be who you really are here.
as for talking about sex in general, there are other things we talk about, but very few are more interesting. *g*
petedownunder @
78
Speaking as someone who grew up in Australia and only left a few months ago, I don’t know where you heard this. We use it to describe Queensland, except that you only set your watch back one hour (because they don’t do daylight savings time). But not Australia as a whole.
I’m actually a bit surprised to hear you say this. Where homosexuality is concerned, I’ve always felt that we were on average more tolerant and less subject to right-wing “Christian” anti-gay bigotry than Americans. Gays and lesbians have served openly in the military for about 15 years. Partnership rights have been gradually expanding, because we already had a “de facto partner” status for unmarried heterosexual couples which could be extended to same-sex couples without invoking the “marriage” word. The kinds of anti-gay campaigning in schools seen in some US states would never get off the ground here, any more than teaching of creationism.
Sometimes my gf and I will talk about US politics, and in the end it comes down to “how does the US have such right-wing bigoted memes in their political discourse, when every American we’ve ever met has been a lovely person?” To which I always respond, “Because the ones we meet are the ones with PASSPORTS”. The bigotsphere wouldn’t dream of visiting filthy foreigners. What could they possibly gain?
However things had been backsliding in recent years under the influence of our current (conservative Bush-loving) government. They took active action to avoid recognising Canadian same-sex marriages under the law, and they had been cuddling up to a nasty sect (the Exclusive Brethren) whose main political interests are being bigoted against gays, and twisting the divorce laws to hurt people who leave their sect. Somehow these sorts of actions change the tone of how people are treated.
That said, I find that things are still a lot better now than in the 80s. Even my ostensibly conservative former workplace has been totally supportive and treated my relationship equally. The fact that my girl is such a wonderful person who everyone can’t help liking probably has something to do with it. ;-)
Wow. I don’t know if I’ve ever had an opportunity to survey so many comments on this subject from such a broad generational cross-section before. I can’t be sure, but I think I’m slightly younger than most of you [28], and it’s very uplifting to see attitudes reflected in older folks that I’ve previously encountered almost exclusively from my own generation and those younger than me. So thanks.
I’ll try and do my part now and tell you a little of what I’ve experienced with this issue.
Most, but not all of my sexual experiences have been with women [I’m a guy], and the few that have been with men have been few and far between and all with very close friends. I’ve never really identified myself with heterosexuality, but it’s pretty safe to say that I’m not gay. It’s kind of like not identifying myself with Whiteness, even though I’m not exactly Black. I kinda think Kinsey was right, even if he fudged the data, that sexual attraction is not as black and white, eithor/or, as it’s usually presented. Sexuality, like racial identification and two-party politics, suffers from strict adherence to a false dichotomy.
Since my family moved around a lot when I was growing up, finding one or two good friends, be they male or female, was a bigger priority than situating myself within a fraternal pecking-order and proving my masculinity. I probably hung around with the girls more than anything. Needless to say, I was called ‘faggot’ a lot, especially in the South, but I’m pretty sure it was by people who were simply uncomfortable with how comfortable I am with myself and others. I couldn’t be dominated or intimidated according to the rules of “authentic affectation”.
When I went to college, I found that the kind of intense friendships that I was accustomed to forge, especially with women, were seen as leading people on. At that age, at least in my experience and with my generation, relationships that treat people as ends in themselves, as opposed to means, are subject to deep suspicion if they aren’t consumated and exclusive. I apologize if this has become too personal, but I have what I believe is a relevant point that I’m trying to make, if you’ll bear with me just a little longer.
I spent the last 5 years in New York City, where the spectrum of affectation is definitely the most diverse I’ve ever seen, and had fun playing a wide variety of roles, putting dozens of different faces on the same guy. It was an experiment in social passing, but there was obviously a mating-rituality to it as well, and it was interesting to see what kind of fish would jump for which kind of bait. I’ve since left the city and moved to rural North Mississippi to decompress, realign, forget the fashion show and return to myself. All goes well. Looking back, what is interesting about the experience of looking for love and lovely people in the city, at least to me, is that the most quality people I met, and the best personal and intellectual relationships that I forged in New York, were almost exclusively with gay and lesbian people. The reason, I think, is that it was only with these individuals, with whom there was little to no possibility of a sexual relationship developing, that I could feel most free to be attractive in the ways that actually matter, like taking a genuine interest in their thoughts, actions and emotions, and sharing my own, without worrying that I would seem like I was leading them on.
My point, I guess, is that there seems to be a serious tension within identity politics, one that is even more pronounced when it becomes about one’s sexuality. It’s very late and I’m too tired to put my finger on it at the moment, but I would love to know what the members of this bright community have to say about it. Thanks again to everyone else who commented, and anyone who bothered to read all of this. Great post Pach.
Why does that matter? And why are you writing so often about it?
I simply don’t get it.
Because it is relevant, it is important to millions who are discriminated on according to their sexual orientation, and finally because they can. Get over it!
chicago dyke @ 342
Not telling you how well I know your mind–just replying to what you have offered about your thoughts.
You seem to hate all of ancient knowledge, because it is not to your liking. Specifically, when someone mentioned Newton in your Friday night thread, you simply dismissed him with the casual, anti-intellectual attack, “he died a virgin.”
That speaks badly of you. Yes, Newton was an old, white European. What, exactly does that have to do with your situation today? Newton likely lived a life entirely of the mind. He provided us with some knowledge we did not have before–a mathematical understanding of local gravity, and he created a whole new mathematics, calculus, to understand the gravitational effects of the planets.
But, you choose to denigrate him because of his color and his heritage, and that’s not scholarly or proper, even today, and you use a half-assed excuse to do so–that he died a virgin.
Shame on you. You want me to think you a scholar? Well, you’d better start acting like one.
So much you choose to not understand, out of hatred.
Philologist? No. When you distort everything you’ve learned as a means of creating a diminutive view of the world which conforms to your contemporary sensibilities, instead of an expansive view, then what knowledge you possess has been corrupted.
Newton, best as I can figure, did nothing to you except offer you knowledge of which you have no need and no understanding. That’s not Newton’s fault.
I’ve got reasonable gaydar. And have had for about 45 years. Times have changed. I’ve always known people who weren’t judgemental about sexual preference, but the last ten years or so have seen remarkable changes, especially among young people. Like one of my female college students told me at the turn of the century “Boy, am I glad I’m part of MY sexual generation.”
People working and teaching in the arts have tended to be the most progressive in this area, probably for hundreds of years or longer. I’ve had a lot of gay students who were going through sexual identity crises. Of course, straight ones and bi ones have crises too. I’ve also coached sports, and volunteered in scouting when my kids went through that.
Sports seems to be moving along with the rest of our culture. But scouting has gone the other way, especially with the rise in influence in scouting by the fundamentalist and evangelical scouting administrators and national boards.
I ended up pulling my son out of scouting after a weekend camping trip where I got into it with some of the other dads over the campfire after the kids had nodded off. They were passsing a bottle of Jack Daniels around. Each dad was supposed to tell an anti-gay joke or relate a negative experience with homosexuals when the bottle came to him. When I got it, I took a big swig and launched into the other guys. I told them that bias against gays is cruel, and that some of the kids on the camping trip might be gay and struggling with identity. I said that without support, kids in this position have a very high suicide rate, tend to adjust poorly to late adolescence and adulthood, and tend to stay maladjusted. I then told them it was their fault if the kids don’t develop normally, not the kids. I explained that homosexuality is normal, not weird.
I passed the bottle to the next guy. He took it gingerly, afraid to swig from the bottle I’d had a drink from, and passed it on. Nobody talked to me the rest of the trip, and a couple of the guys wouldn’t let their sons invite mine over anymore.
Oh, yeah – the kid in the YouTube @ #21. I can’t tell from a video clip. duh! As far as his singing goes, he really wishes he could sing and wants to tell a story through that. He doesn’t appear to have been doing this very long. With some training and a lot of hard work, he could be better than decent.
I can’t figure out why my comment before the short one up there is still in moderation…
I can’t believe I missed this thread, but it was fun reading the comments. You all are awesome.
Great post, Pach. Keep on.
Great topic, as I get older I discover things about myself I had no idea existed, There are things I know how to do that would be in my younger years thought to be not very macho, like sewing, I knew how to make stuff, I could cook lol. I have discovered I am an artist of sorts and I have a feminine side that sensitizes me. So maybe we aren’t one or the other but a little of both in some degree or another. Sexuality is a very closed subject that should be be given the light of the sun always, we would all be much more well adjusted, and peaceful within ourselves.
Wake-up, firepups. Marion? Twolf1?
Mornin’.
Pach,
Your insight, no matter what the topic is what I have come to value. All politics is personal and I really enjoy your perspectives. I’ve spent too many years not discussing relevant topics because they made some people uncomfortable. We as a society are fed a daily dose of sexuality by MSM, yet we should’nt discuss sexuality because this is a political blog? Yeah, right!
egregious @ 367
EG,
Good morning. I just want to tell you that your personal welcome to the Lake several months ago have given me the courage to post here after lurking for two years.Thank you for all you do.
Jim—
That is so kind of you. Always good to get feedback and encouragement. My guideline in Russia and here is to help solve more problems than I create.
Hope you will welcome others here in the future, as people took me in when I was flailing around making newbie mistakes.
You’ve been a great addition to the lake. So glad you joined us.
EG, I have your blog on my favorites and have a Masters in American as well as Russian History. Have to run to church right now but I will try to post something on your blog sometime. I too have a peanut as well as a 6 an 11 year old(Started late), but FDL is my intellectual life blood. Take care and I look forward to further conversations.
Good morning, pups. Savannah survived the St. Patrick’s Day parade, but pretty much all of downtown is one large hangover. Today in the NYT we have Bobo, Kristof and Rich:
http://mgpaquin.wordpress.com/
I was planning on getting some bedding plants and getting started on the flower beds yesterday, but it turned off all chilly and windy. {sniff} I am SO in the mood for spring to come and stay…
Coffee and tea are ready, and because I couldn’t do my garden things yesterday I’m comforting myself with a chocolate croissant. There are lots — help yourself.
Jim—
Now I know who to ask questions about Russian history! One of my colleagues there said not only is the future unpredictable, the past is unpredictable because they are still rewriting it.
Wonder how historians will view this little period of our history.
And thanks for your kind words about egregiousblog. It’s been fun, I highly encourage everyone to start a blog just to learn the new skill and to write about ideas and experiences.
It’s possible to set up a site for free, and there are lots of people around who are generous with their advice on how to proceed. You don’t need to know html! Go for it.
Marion—
You are an angel. Chocolate croissants and coffee…mmmm.
What about spring?? I’m going on strike until I see warmer weather. We had sleet two days ago in Virginia.
Hey retirin’ in five, how can you wake up so early?
Morning all — Just wanted to give everyone a heads up that Matt Stoller of MyDD will be on Washington Journal this morning on C-Span starting at 8:00 am ET. Am finishing up the Talking Heads thread, but I thought folks would like an early heads up…
Hi, Marion -
Did you happen to see my epu note from sometimes yesterday morning about checking out the new Fresh Market? Left with a lighter pocketbook but some yummy food & flowers.
Sympathize w/your desire for immediate & lasting spring. Lost a bunch of spinach & lettuce seedlings day before by leaving right under edge of a deck overhang so that rain washed them out. Had to haul in a bunch of potted stuff last nite b/c it was supposed to hit the low 30’s & am also worried about new growth on some roses.
Looking forward to reading the Rich piece you posted; saw somewhere else it is supposed to be good……..but he almost never disappoints. Merci again for adding firewall stuff to the *rich* assortment at the Lake.
egregious @ 374
Force of habit due to the work schedule during the week. I try to make the THE COMMUTE during off-hours. Get up at 2:30 AM, arrive at 4:00 AM, stay until 1:00 or 2:00 in afternoon, answer email, voicemail, cellphone until 5:00. Rinse, repeat, Mon-Fri.
STOLLER on cspan NOW
Thanks, Christy!
I’m so glad that Peter is hosting on C-Span this morning, with Stoller being on — they make a good discussion combination. This should be an interesting set of questions this morning from viewers.
Caller mentions firedoglake!
This article explains so much about homophobia.
Men Look at Crotches
But I haven’t seen it mentioned on any of the left-leaning sites. Did I just miss all the commotion?
Talking Head Thread is now up for everyone.
The General back on March 16 Battling the homomojo of the manly buldge
To assist the moderator on clearing my comment at #383: the article discusses a study in which men were found to stare at “the area between the waist and the upper legs” of both women *and* men.
I hypothesize that straight men who find themselves doing this and can’t handle the confusion are the ones who end up being off-the-deep-end homophobic.
War. The Promisekeepers. Mancations. Masculine religion movement and muscular Jesus. Mean, hateful insults against gays. Sexual oppression by the sexually repressed (abstinence). Pat Robertson. Jerry Falwell. Karl Rove. Frat boy mentality.
I’d say homosexuality is much more prevalent today than in the 70s & 80s, mostly because of the lengths the religious and political leaders are going to closet themselves and others. Over -compensating for their feelings by using violence and religious oppression is as telling as a flashy sports car or a great big gun. Oh, and tagging discussion about sex as “inappropriate” only feeds the oppressive culture.
Waccamaw @ 377
Yes, I did. It’s VERY dangerous for me to go into ours… Gotta leave the credit card at home and just take a reasonable ration of cash or else madness ensues! Sorry about your little lettuces. Mine survived a hard frost or two, but I covered them up with a sheet, and they are in a raised bed so they stay a bit warmer. I’ve got some beans, peas, radishes and tomatoes I keep saying “grow, my pretties” to, and I put in some bare root asparagus for about 2 years down the road. Am I ready for spring or WHAT?!
Good morning, y’all! Woke up early and just finished reading all the comments. It’s hard to have empathy if you don’t know personal issues personally, so keep on exploring any and all subjects that are important to people. This old married lady (40 years and counting) learned a lot.
DeafbyPills #83:
Of course you have a problem with “homosexuality” (a term invented by a Hungarian journalist in the late 19th century prior to being taken up by the “scientific community” as a means of pathologizign sexuality)
“I have no problem with it”
and
“I don’t care about it”
coupled with
“Why are you talkig about it?”
are LIES right up there with
“The check is in the mail”
and
“I promiose not to come in your mouth.”
A couple of years back he married a woman.
Okay, I know that I’m coming late to the party but I’m living in France and if my gaydar was bad before arriving here it’s nonexistent now. First off, close personal contact is a norm. Most men in the 20-30s age range will exchange ‘bisou’ (the french cheek kisses), as will women (of course). The personal space bubble here is about the distance of a hand–literally inches. So you’ll find both men and women in VERY close contact in all sorts of social settings. Also, most folks here dress really, REALLY well–appearence means alot, and men don’t seem to have issues wearing things that in the US would be considered “gay”. However, I’m in a big city and it could be a big city phenomenon of tolerance/acceptance even in a European country.
retirin’ in five @
378
Jeez. I conclude that either you are self-employed or you work for US, one way or the other. If so, thank you for your service.
Born in 1947, I discovered I was gay in 1954 when my mother took me to see Kismet at the Roxy. When Dolores Gray went into her “Not Since Ninevah” number (choerographed by the great Jack Cole) it was pretty obvious where I was heading. Then in 1961 all was
confirmed when I saw Purple Noon. The shot of Alain Delon kissing himself in the mirror set me off like a five-alarm fire. I was at that point a freshman at New York’s High School of Muisc and Art (aka Communist Martyrs High) A couple of senior boys sat in the back at my first general assembly and made out. Soon I was making out with a number of my fellow classmen (though not at assembly.)Therefore by 1969 when Stonewall happened I was more than prepared. I joined the Gay Activist’s Alliance and served on the Media Committee with Vito Russo. Our proudest moment was taking over the offices of Harper’s magazine in protest of an article written by Joseph Epstein in which he declared it was his deepest desire that me and my kind were wiped off the face of the earth. We very happily held (then editor) Midge Decter hostage in her office. Our ally Merle Miller (go Google) who back when he was closeted was this close to marrying her, told us “Midge won’t call the cops.”
Good times.
Sadly most of my friends of that era are now dead.
Today gay matters are central
to the Republican party.
They installed a male whore named James D. Guckert in the White House (where he entertained clients) and turn him into a fake reporter for a fake news service. Tom Foley runs amok fucking congressional pages. MAJOR Fundie politico Ted Haggard not only has an affair with a huster but is strung out on “Tina” as well.
Then there’s the closeted David Drier, the uncloseted Mary Cheney — the list goes on and on.
Forget gaydar. It’s easier to assume that ALL Republicans are self-loathing closet cases.
Saves time and it’s in all likelihood completely accurate.
And while I’m being EPU’d, I want to thank DefJef and DeathByPills for continuing the discussion. I don’t agree with them, and have illustrative stories by the hour, but it’s morning, I have a concert to prepare, and most everybody else said anything I wanted to say and way better. But I thank you guys for hanging in. It is this sort of honest, honorable discourse that makes this place so remarkable.
To me the point is that we humans are butt-sniffers, it is hard-wired. As I was saying to Mr HotFlash the other day, we are so strange, we want to know the sex of a cat or dog, even if it has been neutered. Just so we know whether to say, “Good boy!” or “Good girl!”? Ya think? Like *they* care? Pretending sex/sexuality/preference ‘does not matter’ is a dangerous form of denial, even if (esp if?) it “does not matter to me.”
David, good morning! A dear friend here was one of the founders of CHAT and NAMBLA (honest!). We were honored to inherit his cat when he died last year. Cancer, BTW, he smoked like a chimney.
As a straight male who is constantly assessed to be gay by friends, family, and strangers I am moderately incensed by conversations about “gaydar.”
Ever heard of a rorschach test? Remember the point behind it?
If we were to delve into the motivations driving possessors of “gaydar” I’d suspect we’d find that 45% of the population are anxious males, 5% are gay males, 45% are catty females, and 5% gay females.
- enough with the gaydar crap.
David,
Hypocrisy is disgusting and the replublicons seem to excel at this. There are real substantive issues where sex, homophobia and so forth need to be discussed. I’m all for that. The Coulter remark about Edwards is a one which she SHOULD be skewered for.
As much as I do support the right of all people to self expression and self actualization, why out people who want to be in the closet if they are not being sexual hypocrites?
As a married het male my wife and I never discuss “radar” issues about people we see or encounter.. unless someone is making a real ass of themselves acting overtly sexual at the wrong place and the wrong time.
Today gender roles are often getting blurred it may be even hard to classify someone as straight of gay or bi and may only matter to YOU if you plan to have a sexual relationship with that person.
There are many battles to be fought to free humans from oppression. We have a long way to go… and I support these struggles.
It does matter to me.
Oh relax, Wallace!
Here’s a Jonathan Richman number I know you’ll love:
“Well I was dancing at a night club one Friday night
And that night club bar was a little uptight
Yeah, I was dancing all alone a little self conscious
When some kids came up and said, “for dancing come with us”
And soon I was dancing in a lesbian bar oh oh
I was dancing in a lesbian bar oh oh oh
Well I was dancing in the lesbian bar
In the industrial zone
I was dancing with my friends
And dancing alone
Well the first bar things were alright
But in this bar, things were Friday night
In the first bar things were just alright
This bar things were Friday night
and I was dancing in a lesbian bar oh oh
I was dancing in a lesbian bar oh oh oh
Well I was dancing in the lesbian bar
Way downtown
I was there to check the scene
And hang around
Well the first bar things were stop and stare
But in this bar things were laissez faire
In the first bar things were stop and stare
In this bar things were lassez faire
and I was dancing in a lesbian bar oh oh
I was dancing in a lesbian bar oh oh oh
In the first bar folks were drinking sips
But in this bar they could shake their hips,
In the first bar they were drinking sips
In this bar they could shake their hips
and I was dancing in a lesbian bar oh oh
I was dancing in a lesbian bar oh oh oh
I was dancing in a lesbian bar oh oh
I was dancing in a lesbian bar oh oh oh
Well in the first bar, things were okay
But in this bar things were more my way
In the first bar things were just okay
in this bar things were done my way
and I was dancing in a lesbian bar oh oh
I was dancing in a lesbian bar oh oh oh
Well in the first bar things were controlled
But in this bar things were rock and roll
In the first bar things were so controlled
In this bar things were way way bold
and I was dancing in a lesbian bar oh oh
I was dancing in a lesbian bar oh oh oh”
Because they are THE ENEMY!!!!
Does the name Roy Cohn ring a bell?
How about Francis Cardinal Spellman?
How about Matt Drudge?
How about Matt Sanchez?
The list goes on and on.
You mean I stand a chance with Alessandro Nivola ?
Then you’ve made my day.
Living where I do, EPU is my lot it seems.
Can’t figure why gaydar is necessary. Seems two “tests” eliminate the need.
1. Does the person “reflect” differently in a mirror than anyone else?
2. Can their blood be diffrentiated from anyone elses blood when spilt?
Only those who lie to themselves cannot see themselves in a mirror, the evil of lie isn’t reflected in truth, which is the mirror least distorting of fact.
I would also observe that whatever biological that underwrites the complexity that is gay, is probably a significant survival trait for the survival of the species, shortcircuiting the eternal rut for a mate, allowing for co-operation and altruism to assure survival.
Almost all homophobia is probably based upon a failure to develope beyond the primitave dominance to obtain mate genetic inheritance, and the inherent inability to cope with any reality beyond the rut. A disfunction of immaturity and arrested development to be sure.
Sorry no linkies for my opinion, developed over many decades, vintage ‘43.
I am a straight male who is constantly assessed to be gay by friends, family, and strangers, and discussions of “gaydar” moderately incense me.
Ever heard of a rorschach test? Remember the point of a rorschach test?
I’ll guess that if we were to delve into the motivations of possessors of “gaydar” we would find that 45% of the population are anxious straight males, 5% are gay males, 45% are catty striaght females, and 5% are gay females.
- enought with this “gaydar” crap.
Sorry about posting twice, I checked back and didn’t see the first one up.
“Oh relax, Wallace!
Here’s a Jonathan Richman number I know you’ll love:”
I say you should relax Dave E; how would you know what I love BTW?
Or maybe they’re just closet queens.
You don’t like Jonathan Richman?
How about Rufus Wainright ?
David Ehrenstein @
405
(cleaned up one sentence a bit)
There is that aspect too, I just see that rampant homophobia appears to be found in the “looking for a mate” set of young males and does appear to tend toward quiescence as “mated” males mature and gain inhibiting experience.
That does not cover those who use homophobia to gain positions of authoritarian power, swing a cat (not really) at any Elmer Gantry type fraud hit can be used as example, but like r#pe, this becomes a matter about power rather than sex. Again, just my opinion.
off topic maybe, but anyone notice that the creator of gaydar.co.uk, a v. rich cuir indeed, snuffed himself tidy last month?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/gayr…..20,00.html
not to stir up the whole “bar cruising vs. internet hookups” riprap but: my sense is the english take their gay sex a lot more seriously than us loser pups stateside
It’s about power AND sex.
This culture has nver been able to deal with the fact that sex is pleasurable. All manner of prohibitions and bugaboos were in place for years (and continue to a large extent) on the “illegitimate.” In pop culture the “wages of sin” is getting axe-murdered (ie. Friday the 13th )
The “unmarried” have always been considered pitiable (ie. “Old Maids”) But recent figures show marrage among straights has lost its luster. Fewer and fewer are marrying — kids be damned.
Consequently the notion that prohibiting same-sex marriage is “protecting” the institution is ridiculous. We gays and lesbians are in point of fact saving marriage.
AZ Matt @ 108
ding-ding-ding…we have a winner!
DefJef in #19 produced even more of the topic that he thought inappropriate. We do have to be at least somewhat careful of what we post, because of the responses that it may produce. We all should understand that patience, empathy, sympathy, compassion and pathos are not necessarily inappropriate responses to virtually any post at FDL.
If I can tolerate the posts that refer to Country Music, I expect everyone else to be tolerant of topics that are not at the top of their favorites list. Please, pretty please, no response to this last paragraph!
Latest FaBlog: A Brief History of the Closet
Straight but;
I have family, friends, and acquaintances who are all kinds of different sexual orientations;
All I can say is;
Life is so short so enjoy,
Love is a gift that is delivered in so many different packages—-
Let’s hear to a beautiful Sunday for all….
Here’s one reason even hetero folks in the burbs, like me, should actually care about these issues. One of your kids could be gay. He/she might already be gay and not even know it. And you’d probably be the last to know.
Don’t you care about what bullshit your kids and/or their friends might have to put up with just to get by in the world?
All that being said, I grew up in a pretty gay-friendly household where same-sex couples were regular visitors. And in high school, I had many gay friends.
So as a straight dad from the burbs, maybe that’s why my gaydar is pretty darn good. Obviously, it isn’t much use to me personally, but it does give me the opportunity to let slip subtle things that tell them it’s OK to be themselves around me.
Oddly I have a blind spot in my gaydar when someone is hitting on me (hasn’t happened in a long time). I guess it’s because the chance that something might come of such behavior blinds me to the situation itself.
so I’m here kinda late to the party, why do you guys suppose Lindsey didn’t marry? what kind of man doesn’t marry if he isn’t gay. Couldn’t he just be an oldman spinster?:>)
I am ever so glad I returned to this thread after waking this (afternoon)! Falsafa and others have really opened up and shared parts of themselves and it is fascinating to read. Thank you all, and especially PACHACUTEC for allowing this conversation to happen.
[delurk]
As a bisexual, married (to a woman) male living in San Francisco, I find much to comment about in this thread, but the issue that most sticks in my mind is where someone gets the idea that they can question what is appropriate for someone to talk about on their own blog in the first place. Seriously, where does that come from? To me, it’s kind of like walking into someone else’s house and telling them they painted the walls the wrong color. It’s a sense of propriety that often gets my goat!
That said, I’m glad to see the relevance of sexuality to politics, and vice versa, being discussed here. Thanks to you all!
I leave you with this superior version of YMCA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lhyH5TsuPg
[/delurk]
Ed*ard Teller @ 363
Hey, ET. Good Riddance to Bad Rubbish! So glad you are here with us.
Personally, I don’t care whether Lindsey is gay, but since the GOP loves bragging about its “values” and wants to make gays 2nd class citizens (and worse) and screams to the rafters about Democrats’ sex lives (after all, his holiness Lindsey was one of the House lawyers on the impeachment case), he’s fair game. All GOP closet cases are fair game, and it’s their own damn fault.