
So, Dick Cheney yelled a big fat militaristic "Boo" at the AIPAC Conference, clearly jumping the shark. We've heard this mushroom cloud, dissent stomping crap before, but Cheney's credibility is long gone. The only cloud left rests over Cheney, Bush and the whole White House.
I fully expect a Democratic '08 hopeful or two (or three. . .) to piddle their Drypers, though. Why? Because AIPAC's lobbying efforts on behalf of an aggressive militaristic agenda, against American interests, are very powerful. AIPAC very effectively promotes militarism in the Middle East through lobbying money and networks of campaign contributors here in the U. S., and also through incendiary rhetoric, so that any criticism of its influence or agenda is met with vitriolic allegations of anti-Semitism. Cue Alan Dershowitz and the frothing wingnut commenters sure to accrue to this post before too long.
AIPAC and its neocon allies in the United States have made a pact with the devil of global militarism, paradoxically, against the interests of the people of Israel and the United States. What does it mean to be a "friend of Israel?" I wrote about it almost exactly one year ago back in August.
Still, let's look at all this a little more closely. Here's a bit from Sarah Posner at The American Prospect, who points out that AIPAC has made common cause and shared its platform with millenialist evangelical fundamentalists in the U. S. whose ultimate goal is to see Israel converted or destroyed to bring about the Second Coming of Jesus:
Whether Hagee is good for Israel is beside the point. The real problem is that he represents a catastrophe for the United States and its standing in the world — not because he might love the Jews too much, or might in fact secretly hate them, but because he is leading a growing political movement completely lacking in a substantive understanding of world affairs. At a time when the Middle East faces seemingly intractable conflicts with dire geopolitical consequences, the notion that Hagee — whose status is only elevated by invitations like AIPAC's — is leading a political movement based on nothing more than a supposedly literal reading of his Bible only reinforces the view that the United States is being led by messianic forces at odds with world peace and stability. Young Americans should have a deeper understanding of Middle East politics in order to fully participate in civic discourse as American troops are fighting a seemingly unending war. But Hagee worries not about troop deployments, instead focusing on teaching the Bible in public schools. While religious fundamentalism is causing untold bloodshed around the world, Hagee frets about secularists who are "destroying America."
When he does speak to actual Middle East politics, it's only to encourage the further destabilization of the region. Hagee has been agitating for a war with Iran for well over a year now, certainly not a single-handed effort on his part, nor one for which he would deserve sole blame should it happen. But if it does happen (and some think it already has begun), Hagee most certainly should be blamed for something else: convincing his minions that war is not only palatable, but required by God.
See, the mythology behind all this, from the Israeli hardliner point of view, is that Israel has few friends and is surrounded by hostiles intent on its destruction (true enough). The lessons of the Holocaust are that Israel must be aggressive in striking against those who would seek its destruction (uh oh). Allies are those who would help Israel do this ("with us or against us"). To oppose this is to will the destruction of Israel and is fundamentally anti-Semitic (the anti-Semitism card from the bottom of the deck). Failure to behave aggressively is to betray weakness, which only emboldens the efforts of those who are hostile (neverending war and aggression).
This is, rather precisely, the theory of international relations that has been adopted by George Bush, Dick Cheney and the neocons in charge of U. S. foreign policy. It's a paranoid world view whose outcome is perpetual war, aggression, the annihilation of innocents and the paradoxical increase in hostility to the aggressor nation. Militarism begets terrorism and intensifies enemy recruitment and hostility, not the reverse.
Let's check out some more moving parts to this ideology and its constituent arms of political influence.
- Glenn Greenwald has a good examination of AIPAC and its influence here.
- David Neiwart at Orcinus documents why millenialist evangelicals in the U. S. support Israeli and American militarism here.
- Evan at Alternet comments on the Sarah Posner piece quoted above.
- The Hill documents the boos the AIPAC crowd gave Nancy Pelosi for describing the failures of the war in Iraq.
- The ComPost shows how Blue Dog Democrats held the House leadership hostage to strip away any limiting language on the president's authority to make war with Iran. Howie Klein comments on this in his update to this post.
- oldpruguy at the Big Orange highlights the bit from Congressional Quarterly that shows the AIPAC effort to kill the Iran language from the pending compromise legislation on Iraq. BooMan finishes connecting the dots and shows how AIPAC was not only effective in killing this language with Blue Dog assistance, but also shows how AIPAC succeeded in removing its fingerprints from the effort. Booman says:
I hate saying this because there is no good way to say it. I don't like subsuming concern for Israel under a term like AIPAC or the 'Israeli Lobby'. But, however you want to define it, advocates of Israel's interests have prevailed on the Democratic leadership to strip any prohibition on the President taking military action against Iran without prior congressional approval. I think that is a problem. And I just don't think this is a good way of protecting Israel's real security concerns. - Ari Berman at The Nation weighs in a bit more on the alliance between the right wing chistianists in the U. S. with Israel's militaristic hawks.
- BarbinMD at Big Orange has more on the Blue Dog sellout. UPDATE: Stoller has names, including past Blue America candidates Mike Arcuri, Joe Sestak and Kirsten Gillenbrand. Please feel free to remind them why they were elected and supported.
AIPAC is a virulently militaristic influence on U. S. policy, and ironically, its agenda does not even coincide with the expressed voting interests of the majority of Jews living in the United States, who reject George Bush and his neocon wars of aggression. AIPAC's power, however, does not reside in it popularity, but in its connections, its influence among DC insiders, its ability to move money to candidates and its willingness to find allies among right wing evangelicals in the United States whose fundamental ideology supports the elimination of both Israel and Jewish religion.
Much of the Democratic Party remains compromised by these influences, including Chuck Schumer, Rahm Emanuel and others who (overtly and covertly) supported Joe Lieberman in his senate race. There's a lot of money available to Democratic candidates who will toe the militaristic AIPAC line, and Obama, Clinton, Edwards and others are all furiously competing to raise money and lock up donors. Matt Stoller advises we promote a nice primary challenge to Allen Boyd (D-FL), whose Blue Dog herding efforts helped kill the Iran language in the House supplemental. Sounds like a fine idea to me.
Iran is not the key nuclear proliferation threat, but as emptywheel points out (via email), Pakistan is:
Look, if this country were concerned about proliferation threats that threaten us, we would not be harping on Iran. It just doesn't threaten the US, at least not with WMD. Instead, we'd be focusing all of our energies on Pakistan, which is the big proliferator in the region, which has close ties to Al Qaeda, and which could lose its somewhat moderate leader to a coup any day.
And frankly, Pakistan is the biggest threat to Israel, as well, because Iran just isn't going nuclear without help, and the country that has helped them in the past is Pakistan.
So why are we warmongering against Iran? Why????
I think you could argue we're doing it at the behest of two of our allies in the region, Israel and Saudi Arabia. So, wonderful, we've got two foreign countries that are exercising undue influence over our foreign policy, great. And now they're in bed together. But that doesn't make the policy right.
Bingo.
Related posts:
- Bush Duplicitous, Deceitful, Dangerous to Global Stability
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Paul Starobin, After America: Narratives for the Next Global Age
- Biden on Iran: ‘Some Real Doubt’ About The Electoral Outcome
- Reid’s Opt-Out: The Devil is in the Details
- Valuing Democracy: Iran, Iraq and the War Supplemental





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FDL motherfuckers!
Thanks, Pachacutec!
This oughta get the filters hummin!
Nice piece o’ research, dude!
ET at 2 — See, patience is a virtue after all. Sometimes, you have to just wait and see what’s going to pop up next. *g*
Christy Hardin Smith @ 4
{{{Redd}}} I’m starting to sob a bit…
I told you we were allowed to talk about this stuff ET. Now do you believe us?
OH thank you Pach and FDL!!!
Now back to read.
(ET– I’ll confess to a couple of tears myself.)
White phone for Joe Lieberman! There are pearls that need clutching!
thank you pach, christy and especially ET. many many thanks for this post.
Required reading for the Bush admin.:
Ayn Rand for economics and Orwell’s 1984 for Foreign Policy.
Rather a bold post. I like it.
The stomach-churning, higher-than-ever, war chest requirements for presidential hopeful bids is fueling this evil. And, yay-yus, I sed EEVEEEL!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 12
I like going after subjects others often find taboo.
From Matt Stoller’s piece Pach referenced above:
the one who forced Pelosi to drop the Iran attack language – is Allen Boyd
What sort of sway could Boyd hold over Pelosi to be able to force her or any Dem congressman’s hand on this?
also, was tommy being snarky?
From John Nichols and here’s a NV dem that needs some sunshine, too.
http://www.thenation.com/blogs…..pid=174804
It’s not the role of government to tell churches what unions they should bless. John Edwards up now on CNN Sitroom.
Troubled that any president would impose their personal views on the rest of the country. Edwards continues.
Don’t Ask Don’t Tell is wrong. Doesn’t work.
Let’s see why this debate about authorizing Bush to attack Iran reminds us of past moments of great stupidity.
Hmmmm….
John Edwards “was skeptical about voting for the Iraq war resolution and was pushed into it by advisers looking out for his political future,” according to an upcoming book by political consultant Robert Shrum, the AP reports.
-GSD
on cspan 3 now
The ironic thing is that A*PAC does not represent Jewish Americans WRT Iraq. American Jews have always been the group with the highest opposition to the Iraq war.
I think that a lot of people could be reached if they were told “Hey, A*PAC was wrong on Iraq — what makes anyone think they’d be right on Iran?”
Prairie Sunshine @ 18
Good for him!
Pachacutec, oklahoma kiddo:
Thankfully, this kind of post is no longer “bold”. Thanks to attention to AIPAC at places like talkingpointsmemo, matthewyglesias and glenngreenwald, the problem this lobby presents is percolating to the mainstream of debate. People who were denialists on the subject of AIPAC are now open to scrutinizing it. It is also my personal experience that criticism of the Israel’s lobbying arms, whether in Congress or the press, virtually never face the “anti-Semitism” charge, so long as they make substantiated arguments.
I have a quibble with Pachacutec’s post, though. There’s all this bending over backward to say that AIPAC’s agenda is bad for Israel. Not only is that decidedly secondary, but it’s a question for Israelis to decide; they are the ones who look to AIPAC more than any other lobby to represent their interests. From all the polling, AIPAC’s pursuit of an attack on Iran is popular there. Sorry, many of you progressives, but neither the U.S. nor Israel are the countries we would like them to be: they are militaristic.
GSD at 20 — Isn’t Shrum working as an advisor to the Edwards campaign now? I had heard that he was, through some back channels — and, if so, shouldn’t Shrum disclose that in his book?
Some days your just have to live with that twisting knife in your gut. This is one of those days. I hope to hell the names of the Dems who decided that the Constitution doesn’t mean anything are published. Make them face their constituents and take the heat for bowing to the Likudnik lobby. I’m sure their constituents will be glad to know who their kids are dying and getting maimed for.
Further SitRoom:
Edwards on Gonzales: what he did was wrong. for partisan political reasons. subtext of “voter fraud” is voter suppression.
When is someone at the highest level going to take responsibility? Gonzalez needs to be gone. Resign or fired.
angie @ 17
thanks for the link.
i find it so much more frustrating when dems buy into this nonsense…. we need to address the doctrinal questions of our foreign policy head on… and find a real alternative to the neocon / neolib view of global domination and militarism.
thank you everyone!
Christy Hardin Smith @
25
How Bob Shrum still gets work is beyond me. He has destroyed the Democratic brand for 30 years. He’s never won a campaign ever. He should be cast out into the desert(metaphorically speaking Mr. Kurtz) forever and ever and never listened to by any self-respecting Democrat.
-GSD
Sorry for sloppy grammar in hastily written post.
Phoenix woman at #22
So who said American Jews were in favor of the Iraq war? Your response indicates a kind of reflexive defensiveness that, as I said above, is a bit behind the curve.
Missed the back and forth between Wolfie and Edwards re Shrummy. Even this brief amateurish foray into life-blogging is a reminder to self of the daunting awesome work done by EW, Swopa, Christy and Jane. And Pach and TRex.
My heroes, all.
angie @ 17
The really sad thing is that if she puts it back in, she runs into Edwardbrendan @ 23
Consider who runs the Jerusalem Post, which used to be a fine leftist paper before Conrad Black got his mitts on it. (Hint: Last name rhymes with “earl”.)
That’s part of the problem.
Prairie Sunshine @ 26
Good — the Democrats are speaking with one voice on this.
Ed*ard Teller @ 16
Not to worry, see his 1.20.
It’s a good day when the conversation started by Mearsheimer & Walt and James Earl Carter can continue.
And yes, selise it is about the doctrinal questions.
royal flush of a post, unbeatable hand.
orcinus is a great resource, Greenwald of course, and for a taste of bitter but needed medicine I recommend
http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/
It would be a much needed reset button to simply be able to talk about foreign policy in America’s interests again- what a concept!
Hello? kathleen?
Feel better now??
So.
Just finished reading recaps of the Gonzalez presser today.
Did you know there are 110,000 people working at DOJ? How could Albert possibly know everything that goes on there?
It’s not like there were important people involved here. Not anyone you’d expect Gonzalez to have regular interaction with, like, say, someone who reports directly to him, such as his Chief of Staff, or someone he reports to directly, like the President, or the President’s staff.
Oh, wait.
Yes, it’s EXACTLY like that.
Gonzalez throws off so much bullshit, it’s a wonder he hasn’t smothered himself yet.
Phoenix Woman at #33:
Your point about the Jerusalem Post is unclear.
I’d also like to clarify a point: the anti-Semitism charge is infrequently cast about in the left blogosphere. In national politics it is, however, as many of you here, so involved in the Lamont campaign, can attest.
Indeed, I suspect there’s a certain amount of defensiveness about the charge because of the residual memory of that campaign. Firedoglake had to be very aware at the time of people, i.e., trolls, who would have liked to taint the site with anti-Semitic anti-Lieberman invective.
hey pach – since you’re feeling especially bold today… please take a look (if you haven’t already) at this article that angie brought to my attention.
here’s my earlier comment on it (with an ET mention).
brendan @ 30
Brendan:
The common assumption is that American Jews backed the Iraq war — an assumption that our press doesn’t bother to fight.
When was the last time you saw it mentioned on the evening news that Jewish Americans opposed the invasion of Iraq? Certainly not during the run-up to the Iraq war, and not at any time since, I wager. But we will have Andrea Mitchell pretending that most Americans support pardoning Scooter Libby when the polls say the exact opposite.
Phoenix Woman #42:
It’s not a “common assumption” at all, and never has been. I challenge you to find an example in any mainstream media of this assumption being stated.
A question for those being supported by AIPAC:
So how do we do this all war all the time thing?
How do we pay for it and where do we get the soldiers?
The temptation is to jump right in the middle of this. But I won’t. Yet. ;0)
Pach -
I just looked at A*PAC’s form 990 for the fiscal year ended September 30, 2005. Its revenues for that fiscal year, amounting to approximately 51.3 million dollars, belie its influence.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 45
go ahead, jump!
we’re here to catch you!
The DEMS have some explaining to do to all
the voters who put them over the top back in
November 06 to wrench the maniacs,serial liars
and goosestepping types out to eliminate one
party run DC spiral. It looks like the money
politics are fully stinking up DEMS ops now too.
It really always comes down to money and
who can shovel the most does it not? AIPAC is
a very big player in DC town no matter which
party is conducting the DC circus. Israel gets
the big passes with all the “let pass” boxes
checked from both the DEMS and GOP. Despite
the facts,truthtell and simple record of who
is doing what to who in the Israeli/Palestine
conflict Israel continues to get away with all
the big lies fully taken in as being so. Israel
is in a tough neighborhood which requires it
to be street smart and wary. OK…I get that.
However Israeli militarism,American militarism
and the ME world AEI,AIPAC and PNAC types seeks
is hell on earth. What happened to Lebanon last
summer at the hand of Israel was not right. The
final actions of dispersing bomblets all across
southern Lebanon just to fuck things up for the
Lebanese exposed Israel for the monster it has
become. WashDC just laps all this up. Cheney
could wear a Hitlerian Nazi uniform and spew
out endless hatred diatribes and somehow AIPAC
crazily enough would endorse his rotted and
corrupted views. AIPAC needs to be leashed.The
DEMS need to find a spine. The clock is indeed
running…ticking away for many thousands of
Palestinians,Iraqis and Lebanese families whos
children face the worst of a hatefilled world.
WashDC is a hopeless snakepit and expecting any
genuine compassion,political courage or some
heartfelt rage and action over American death
dealing in ME likely just too much to ask for.
Lots of innocent people are being given no hope
and every reason to hate Americans in ME these
days. Cheney and his minions want more hate and
killing. The moral compass is run amok for all
Americans if we allow Cheney,AIPAC and all the
bad act thinking factions to open the gates of
Hell fully in ME. They are monsters who should
be caged before the world erupts in a hateful
circle of death,destruction and unending evil.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 45
OKK, if we get into a major hailstorm we will all need to pull back a little. We had a little taste of this in the Lamont campaign.
This kind of post is likely to draw in some heavy duty anger.
We didn’t crash the server on Verdict Day, let’s keep things going tonight as well.
Yes, brendan both countries are militaristic.
Any wonder why others feel threatened?
I would also agree with marcy’s excellent email, never forgetting for a minute that Pakistan is the Taliban who were recognized while in power in Afghanistan by only three states: the United Arab Emirates, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia.
But, bushco invited them here and funded them, too.
Phoenix Woman at #42 says:
“When was the last time you saw it mentioned on the evening news that Jewish Americans opposed the invasion of Iraq? Certainly not during the run-up to the Iraq war, and not at any time since, I wager. But we will have Andrea Mitchell pretending that most Americans support pardoning Scooter Libby when the polls say the exact opposite.”
Your perspective is bizarre. When was the last time the evening news suggested most American Jews supported the invasion? Given that such a suggestion has, in fact, never been made, why would the evening news be bound to rebut it?
I chimed in on this thread to offer my general observation that this is a subject people are pretty comfortable talking about, but now I have to scratch my head over your perfervid defensiveness. You’re evidently not comfortable talking about it.
And what’s with the Andrea Mitchell non-sequitur?
egregious @ 49
i missed that (thank goodness), must have been while i was canvassing in CT. thanks for the warning/heads up.
Iirc, the two lobbying organizations exempted from the recently passed reform bill in the new Congress were AIPAC and the Aspen Institute. How charming.
Dude, this is simply unreadable. Please, introduce yourself to the concept of paragraphs.
shootthatarrow>>> @ 48
egregious at #49:
I didn’t follow comment threads during the Lamont campaign, though I followed firedoglake. Was there really “heavy duty anger” on the subject then here? If there was, it was probably trollery (see my #33). Absent a Lieberman campaign, I would expect level-headed discussion of the subject.
Wonder what would happen if 5000 progressives were able to flood Capitol Hill with face-to-face appts with elected reps/senators after having an expensive, high profile conference with rousing speeches and policy meetings?
ah.
egregious #49:
This is a great point. AIPAC should be looked at as a legislative issue.
Now that the Democratic Party is resisting its sway it’s cleaving all the more to the Republicans (they booed Pelosi) and this should, in turn, embolden them to rein it in –by treating it like other lobbying groups, as you mention, and also, in my opinion, making its lobbyists registers as agents of a foreign country.
I humbly submit that firedoglake would be an excellent vehicle for pushing such an agenda. Someone has to do it.
I just drove through town (near Camp Pendleton) and saw three giant Coach buses full of kids heading in from Twenty-nine Palms. Children. The ages of my children. And they had their two fucking weeks of training.
Dante was speaking of this Administration in the Inferno.
All right. I’ll keep my powder dry and my arrows in the quiver. For a bit. ;0)
brendan @ 55
It was pretty brutal for people behind the scenes, if the gossip is correct.
Israel, We Bless Thee ~ http://www.crescentandcross.co…..bless_thee
Breath of fresh air, Pach; thanks.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 59
You’re a sweetheart!
Um…real arrows?? ;)
I am so interested in the thoughts here, LaFourmiRouge @ 54 that I read it, no prob!
LOL.
egregious– your 49 is intriguing.
The Palestinians deserve life and hope, too.
I embedded an update to the bullet points. Stoller has some Blue Dog saboteur names, including past Blue America candidates Mike Arcuri and Kirsten Gillenbrand.
Please feel free to remind them why they were elected.
So, Kossackistan is now Big Orange? I’ve seen this several times in the past couple of days.
Hokay!
Yup, the Hagee-ophiles really are as crazy as they sound. They are just itchin’ for nuclear holocaust with Iran so they can get this whole end of the world thing over with. They are getting very impatient for the rapture. And Lieberman and the AIPAC crew are playing them like fiddles so they can set the US foreign policy agenda. Israel strikes through our military might and then hides behind our superpower status.
Hey, Hilary, Edwards, Obama, is the money really worth it? If you guys took a group pledge to abstain, wouldn’t it put you on roughly the same playing field and give you leverage to work for a practical solution without pressure?
Think about it.
Dalia Rabin on the panel I alluded to above, says that Israel is still over-investing in the military.
(Like her father)
Peace.
brendan @ 55
The moderators behind this blog deal with a lot of truly dreadful material posted in comments. They alone will attest fully to the nastiness of the trolling FDL gets specifically — but as a blogger who’s managed a couple other sites, I can tell you there is truly awful stuff that comes out when certain key subjects come up.
One is the issue of the relationship between the U.S. and Israel.
I’m not certain why you appear to be copping an attitude with folks who have been frequent commenters over the last couple of years and have seen some of the worst as it’s peeked through before mods catch it. Maybe it would behoove you to go back through some DailyKos diaries or some of M.J. Rosenberg’s posts at TPM’s Cafe Central to see some of the vituperative comments that emerge on this topic.
That move by Pelosi is a fatal mistake; once Iran is attacked, there is no more law left that can have any effect on the executive. That is the end of America and the beginning of Fascist Amerika. It is precisely the apeact and PNAC convergance that has made the children of America into war criminals, not heros, not with the attrocity that was done to Iraq, now to be visited upon Iran for no visable cause.
The congress will have to decide wether they shall become a part of the solution, or remain part of the problem. In less than two years, the voters again will either return the members for reflecting the will of the public, or they will find others who will reflect the public will. Pelosi just may be a flash in the pan, a sad footnote to history, or she can show that she has the mams to be President.
Very real. That’s what we hunt with. ;0)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 70
……..cough……..nice OKK……… :)
angie @ 64
I am trying not to be a lightning rod. I am just itching all over though. ;0)
Neocon policy is neocon policy whether in the United States or in Israel. If dangerous and undesirable policies of another country are influencing policy in the government of this country, it needs to be examined without fear of being labeled as some form of hate speach. When Hitler’s policies were being implemented also by Mussolini in Italy (which is a Catholic country), it would have been ludicrous to not have been able to protest those policies for fear of insinuating that all Catholics in the world were in agreement with his policies. The fact that a foreign country is influencing the actions of our government’s policies (by lobbying our Congress) and assisting in implementing policies by members of this government, against the desires of the majority of citizens in this country, is the problem – not what religion anyone is. Remember also that during WWII human beings of all religions were rounded up and murdered. This is a policy problem in this country, and it is about the present, not about what happened in the past. It cannot be easy to be an Israeli in this kind of climate, and the policies of that country don’t seem to help the security of those citizens. Neocon policy, wherever it exists in this world, only seems to create more hatred and more violence. I find it simultaneously sad and infuriating.
jump in, the water’s fine, OK!
Skies are clear here, no lightning at all.
some numbers from 2004 about pro-Israeli pacs and your congress critters from washington report on middle east affairs.
I will say this. I will never stop supporting those who have had their land occupied, their women, the old, the sick, the meek and the weak, and the children killed, maimed, assaulted, or otherwise molested. And I will revolt against racism and descrimination of any kind. Until I can no longer comprehend what I am doing.
I was worried the subject was taboo among interested and concerned foreign policy followers on this site (and others). At a time like this it is helpful to read this article. John Mearsheimer is the Wendell Harrison Professor of Political Science at Chicago and Stephen Walt is the Robert and Renee Belfer Professor of International Affairs at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html
AIPAC’s constituency is very very narrow yet they dominate our Middle East foreign policy to the detriment of U.S. interests.
How does Congress justify exempting some lobbying outfits from lobbying reform?
TeddySanFran @ 78
If only we knew someone who was really, really good at posing questions to the Washington Post online people.
LS– thank you for your thoughts.
;)
LS @ 73
It would be nice to reframe this as a neo-conservative issue. Perhaps we should be checking with George Lakoff on this matter.
We have difficulty talking about this issue as charges of anti-semitism come up frequently. It’s a method by which discussion is shut down, and there are people out there who are more than personally motivated to do so. There is a persistent difficulty with differentiation betwee one’s religion, race, country of origin and religion; these separate statuses are easily conflated, often deliberately.
Using Catholicism as an example doesn’t quite work because there is no Catholic “homeland”; Catholicism is not wound into an ethnic group or country.
We also have to deal with the notions of “American exceptionalism” as it is part and parcel of the neo-conservative movement. At what point are we not manifesting the same inability to separate components of culture and identity from our nationality? How is that being used against us, just as it is against most Israelis?
funny eg
brendan @57
i think the perceived defensiveness that you perceive is real, in all public postings re: AIPAC.
the anti-semitism charge is used liberally both by Israel and AIPAC. i make a distinction between Israeli in general, and the government of Israel- I think that AIPAC and the state of Israel have congruent interests, even if they are counterproductive to the wishes of it’s citizens.
I think it’s too optimistic that AIPAC will be reined in since the democratic victory, since most of the democrats are scared shitless of AIPAC.
Glenn Greenwald had a great post last year that opened up the discussion
http://glenngreenwald.blogspot…..r-war.html
I spy Godwin’s Law uberall!!
The Palestinian elections were “free and fair” but because the wrong party got elected Bush refuses to talk to them.
Iran and Palestine are probably the nearest thing to “Democracies” in the whole of the Middle East.
Who voted to supply Laser Guided Weapons to Israel during the recent Lebanon conflict?
What has happened to the “investigation into the use of cluster bombs by Israel at the end of the same conflict?
Iran is not doing anything illegal under the IAEA NPT, but then Saddam didn’t have WMD’s either.
TeddySanFran @ 82
You guys DO know, I hope, that Teddy has made a specialty out of researching which online WaPo forums/fora will come online at exactly what hour, then being the very first question.
All hail the great Teddy!
I learned from the master, eg and I hail him often.
Got two published just this very day…
Can anyone explain to me the answer to a question I have asked many times before? If it was right to give the long suffering Jewish people a homeland of their own in 1948, and I am certain this was moral and proper, then why is it not right to accord the Palestinians their own home today?
angie @ 86
Go you!
Details, woman, details!
Pachacutec, To the mix of religious fundamentalists and right-wingers in the US and Israel, and AIPAC specifically, I would add the armaments industries (so-call “defense” industries). There are vast amounts of money involved here. There was recently a binge of armament purchases in Dubai, spurred by war talk on the part of the US. The higher the tensions are in the M.E., the more arms are purchased. Exactly what the connections are between these various factions I don’t know, but it would be very naive to not assume that connections exist.
We need to look at the connections between right-wing authoritarianism, militarism, armaments industries, and religious fundamentalism in the US and Middle East to know how our democratic politics are undermined. Ultimately, ordinary people die and suffer in wars due to the behind-the-scenes manipulations of these players in the global power elite, and that is frightening and sickening.
i think one of the biggest jokes of the WMD discussion is the fact that Israel is a nuclear power (a one time proliferator- see S. Africa), and how no one dares bring that up, but everyone else who so much has a SCUD is a deadly threat. Depends on where you’re standing to see where the real threats are.
Pachacutec – Thank you so much for this post. Want to read all the comments, but first wanted to point out this C-SPAN development:
Harry Reid just said, on the Senate floor, as he was summarizing the Homeland Security 9/11 Bill that is now (finally) being voted on [this because “Iraq will still be there when we return” according to Reid weeks ago when he made this bill a higher priority]:
Harry Reid made that statement in order to try to give credibility to the efforts Roehmer contributed behind the scenes in the drafting of this bill, and thus to the bill itself. It’s like shooting ducks in a barrel for the Republicans… They must howl with laughter behind closed doors at the pathetic efforts and cluelessness of their Democratic “opposition” in Congress. [Reid also made sure to call the longtime Lieberman/Collins lovefest a ‘model’ of how the Senate committee chairs and ranking members should collaborate. We simply can’t teach that old dog any new tricks.]
Coming on top of Dave Obey’s “you idiot liberals” hurled at a wounded Marine’s mother, we can see the absolutely disgraceful level of failure to which the Democrats have descended in the propaganda wars. Harry Reid is simply incapable of absorbing the lessons that Americans have been screaming from the rooftops for years now. It is in one ear, out the other for him. He hasn’t the least clue how to sell a message, how to take a stand, how to fight back. Not the least clue.
Oh, by the way (in the same fashion in which he threw this tidbit out as an afterthought): Reid has now declared that he and Mr. Minority Leader McConnell will be coming to agreement on an Unanimous Consent resolution about that Iraq thing hopefully for tomorrow so that the Senate can proceed to the matter of the U.S. Attorneys on Thursday. What the blazes this means I have no idea, and Reid couldn’t be bothered to elaborate, except to say: stay tuned.
We’ve been “tuned in” for years, now, Mr. Reid. Your reception is the problem (that has developed into a national crisis to which you are apparently oblivious), not ours.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 87
OK – they took most Palestine and gave it to the Israelis – who then promptly stole the rest (sorry but I get really angry about this) – I promise not to mention “Lebensraum”.
Living in GA when friends bring up voter fraud I bring up voter suppression. It’s something that we can all learn. Somehow when you point out that Bush is more concerned about Iraqis voting then us it hits home. Thank you John Edwards for bringing up this important issue on CNN
Jeffinberlin … not sure if you’ve seen the accounts in the Independent etc of how Olmert planned the most recent Lebanon war three months before the abductions and then just waited for a provocation … sorta like we’re doing with Iran.
In fact, one thing that is striking to me is the degree to which our military has adopted Israeli military strategies in the Middle East …
Siun @ 94
This appears to be a rather objective view. ;0)
Great post, Pach:
Yes, please do.
Siun@94
Yes I know the piece. I always thought that the the Lebanon this was to protect Israel’s northern borders, they should have destroyed Hezbollah leaving the US free to attack Iran with Israel “safe”.
Unfortunately it didn’t work out that way – which is why Condee refused to have an immediate ceasefire – they were still hoping that Hezbollah would be defeated.
question for the moderators – are you getting a lot of slime in the filters or is this going well?
The feeling here is that we need much more discussion on this topic.
NH
New Hamsher
brendan @ 55
Rather strident charges of anti-semitism (levied at progressive supporters) in the Lamont campaign came from Lieberman’s campaign, as they leafleted windshields of vehicles in and around black churches with accusations of Lamont’s ‘racism’.
Thus, the same source that dabbled in playing the race card was the first to trumpet accusations of oppression as a stratagem of further denigrating their opponents.
The ‘heavy duty anger’ referenced by Egregious in that time period emanated in part from this chain of events, but was not precisely focused on them.
Ultimately in that case, the Republicans got their candidate elected…So the world continued to unfold as they hoped.
from an older Ari Berman article – illustrating how virulent this is -
but will give final word to a voice for sanity -
Ari Berman
Re: the Jewish Homeland -
Ethnicity is a divisive basis for social and political organization, but it’s what we’ve inherited. If we are to have ethnic-based nation states, Jews, because of their historic persecution, have the highest claim to a national homeland.
But according to principles of reparation and state succession, the Jewish nation should have been fashioned from the territory of the German state defeated in 1945. Instead the WW2 victors wrote a check that was supposed to be paid by the residents of the British mandated territory. Palestinians thus became the only people in history whose beef against Jews isn’t imaginary.
Anti-Zionism does not equal anti-Semitism. The issue is Israel’s borders. For nearly 20 years, the PLO/PLA and most mid-East governments have been willing to settle with Israel along the lines of U.N. Security Council Resolution 242 (return to the 1967 borders). When put to a UN vote, only the Marshall Islands and the USA support expansionist Israel.
Haaretz has an opinion piece up with the interesting title “Israel Must Stay The Hell Out of the US Debate on Iraq.” The writer takes Olmert to task for, among other things, not recognizing that US Jews are largely against Bush and his war, and that blindly cozying up to Bush may end up getting Israel blamed for Bush’s war. I haven’t plowed through the comments there, but it does seem to have caught people’s attention.
angie @
56
We would be introduced to the frogger march. (no music)
Fresh thread from Jane, up and ready for the reading.
heh, ESAR– probably so…
For many interesting articles, I find ICH invaluable. If you peruse the site today and yesterday, you will find some on topic articles by Gideon Levy, Yoav Stern, Jonathan Cook and Sarah Posner.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/
I also found this editorial from the LA Times thought provoking.
http://www.commondreams.org/views07/0311-26.htm
JeffinBerlin @
84
These 70 US Senate nay votes are the votes for cluster bombing civilians.
The bottom line is that members of our elected government are accepting money from people representing another country in exchange for supporting the policies of that country, which includes bombing another fledgling country into rubble, against the will of the people in our country. Our citizens are subsequently frightened into believing the propaganda of demonization, en masse, of the ethnicity and religious culture of many other countries, because some enemies of that lobbying country are of a particular ethnicity and religion. It is the interference by any foreign country in our policies that is at issue. Saudi Arabia is also a perfect example.
Christy Hardin Smith @
25
Shrum is irreplaceable. He writes the best concession speeches in the business.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 87
Not to change history, and I know this will be inflammatory but can someone go back and tell me why it’s a given that it was “right” to give Jewish people a homeland in 1948? by who? by colonial powers? U.S., Great Britain, U.N.? If a 2000 year old claim is valid, then the native Americans have a pretty damn good claim since theirs is more recent. why does the palestinians pay the holocaust debt of the Europeans- why not Austria?
Humpty Dumpty is done broke, and no one can’t go back and fix it, but please don’t say that pushing lil Humpty off the ledge was “right”
The constitution gives it to them and they don’t have the guts to write laws with it. Gimme a break, however bad Iran is to think they can launch war on them with the authority they have right now is a joke. WTheF is OBL? Do your F’in jobs.
Re-negotiations of billions of dollars in military aid to Israel are being negotiated right now.
What does that tell you. Stars Wars, anti-missile defense could be worth billions alone.
mattes @ 113
i think you’ve hit on the key point. warmongering and fearmongering (see iran) help justify these billions in military aid – which of course end up in the pockets of which companies? follow the money.
that’s my working hypothesis.
How does requiring Congressional approval(as required by the Constitution) before the Bushies can attack Iran weaken U.S. negotiating position on Iran nukes? The Dems’ backdown over this necessary restraint is very troubling.
Sure the Bushies will be gone in 2009, but unless AIPAC’s malicious influence over U.S. policy is reined in, the US will continue to pursue Middle East policies which are definitely not in the US’ best interest.
Glad that FDL is discussing this.
Goddam!!! I turn my back all day for depositions and you do this!!
It is too late and I am exhausted….. any chance of returning to the theme, Pachacutec, tomorrow or soon?
PeanutGallery @ 75 shows an interesting table. When the going gets really down and dirty do not expect Pelosi to stray too far rom the AIPAC line. It is really hard for Democrat AIPAC fellow-travellers/recipients, with the Larry Franklin, Weissman, Rosen, Feith, Wolfowitz, Wurmser, Libby, Ledeen, Hannah, Finkelstein, Kristol, Perle, ??Bartlett etc etc Brigade all in there pushing the Greater Reich Israel boat.
Look at this; it is a public trumpeting of the “strategy” of attacking Iraq` first and then Iran. Greedy Cheney and Gullible Bush were conned into invading Iraq in a proxy war on Israel’s behalf. The LOobby/AIPAC/PNAC/WHIG have a lot to answer for.
This is all the underlying reason for the WaPo’s support for BushCo and for the NYT’s`sitting on the fence.
Since Joe Lieberman’s first loyalty is to Israel it is obvious why he French kisses GW. (I wrote this to Jane H during the Lamont Primary battle.)
At bottom, it is now an Un-American Activity to support Zionism.
LS @ 109
They have continued to pursue these policies despite the fact the american people no longer buy into the fear, terror, bad brown people mantra.
Not to change history, and I know this will be inflammatory but can someone go back and tell me why it’s a given that it was “right” to give Jewish people a homeland in 1948?
It wasn’t right to divide Palestine. How would you have liked being a Muslim (or Christian) Arab and having your home falling within the boundaries of a “Jewish” state? It’s really sad what happened, and what’s done is done, but it’s in America’s interest to solve this situation somehow. I’d like to see a one state solution, but I suppose that’s not in the cards.
maunga @ 116
It would help if I had given you all the “this”, probably!
http://www.iasps.org/strat1.htm
Greedy Cheney and Gullible Bush were conned into invading Iraq in a proxy war on Israel’s behalf.
Well, Bush and Cheney had their own reasons for invading Iraq. Bush so he could play a credible commander and chief, and Cheney for the buisness deals. So, while Israel played a role (a pretty big one I imagine) it wasn’t the only tuba in the toilet.
At bottom, it is now an Un-American Activity to support Zionism.
That’s funny. There are other Americans who would insist on the opposite (think Rush and his sea of dimwits).
Oklahoma kiddo @ 12
That conversation a few days ago got it going. Healthy Healthy! It is worth going to watch the 2004 Aipac conference on line. the major focus of the conference was on Iran Iran Iran. In fact a Hollywood style nuclear facility for people to go through at the conference to stir up some more fear.
Diplomacy Diplomacy Diplomacy is what is called for. Flynt Leverett at the New American foundation is the man to read on Iran. He dropped out of the Bush administration months before the invasion of Iraq
Thank you Pach for some level-headed discussion of the subject.
kathleen @ 122
I like him, he knows what he’s talking about.
What the region needs now, according to Brzezinski, is an American leader brave enough to say: “Either I make policy on the Middle East or AIPAC makes policy on the Middle East.”
cbl, there is one candidate that will not toe the AIPAC line,
DENNIS KUCINICH
he is the ONE
dachoste @ 90
If you go to the IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency) website. You can find articles about how President Kennedy was the last President to demand that Israel open up its Dimona site to inspections. Kennedy had made lots of enemies. Johnson dropped this issue as soon as he came in.
Also one of the more fascinating documents at the IAEA website is called “Israel’s nuclear and weapons capabilities and threat the the middle east”. This letter/document has been sent to the IAEA many times and is signed by most nations in the middle east. They demand that Israel play by the same rules that they want all of their neighbors to play by.
Worth spending time at the IAEA website digging into and reading documents about this issue.
Mordechai Vanunu is one of my heroes!
Surprise, surprise., Pelosi today decided to drop the prohibition against a preemptive attak on “Iran” from the upcoming Iraq resolution because it may be “against Israel’s interest.” Oh, my! You think AIPAC had something to do with the sudden about face? Let’s see how the new Senator from VA – with a similar resolution pending – will hold up to the inevitable pressure.
egregious @ 7
While I am thankful that one of the FDLers wrote about this issue. I believe that this is the first time that they have done so. Great dialogue.
kathleen at 128 — It is not, by far, the first time someone at FDL has written about the issue. Please try reading on the site further back than the last couple of months.
GSD @ 20
Christy Hardin Smith @ 128
Thanks… I did look back and could not find anything. I will look further. Glad to see it one way or another. Great dialogue on a sensitive subject. Christy do you know how far back I need to look. Thanks!
Kathleen — I recall that Pach had a great post on Israeli/American relations last August, and that we had a number of lively discussions in the comments around that time as well. And I know there have been posts further back than that — I just don’t know off the top of my head when they were. Maybe try a Google search — that’s probably the easiest search method.
LS @ 73
I believe that Micheal Ledeen focused on Fascism for his Ph.d. Seems some of those strategies influenced his thinking.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 130
Thanks
There Is A Solution. …. but dream on as long as Bribers— sorry lobbyists — go on being permitted to give money in support of a foreign country.
Congress members might then get real and understand that the US’s one-eyed support for the terrorist, illegal regime in Tel Aviv is what has created the monster.
If Bush really wants a legacy he could setle the Israel/Palestinian problem.
He makes a statement setting the following pre-requisites for any further discussion or support.
1. Call in every single “loan” right back to the beginning — since ISrael will be broke, freeze all Israeli balances.
2. Israel will immediately hand over its nuclear weapons to the IAEA for disposition.
3. Israel will withdraw completely to the pre-Six Day War borders, restoring the land to its previous state or leaving its alterations at the Palestinians behest. All 242, 338 and successive Resolutions will be accepted by Israel. This includes Right of Return and Restitution.
4. All immigrants post 1948 and their descendants.
At that point a discussion will take place as to how many illegal immigrants the new government will permit to stay.
For readers who do not know………. the Old Testament, from which “Israel” claims its right to exist, is a fictional work written first in about 650BC. Abraham, if he existed, did not do so in Palestine.
Moses did not exist in the terms expressed, because there was no journey into Egypt, so no Return, no Wandering in the Wilderness….. neither David nor Solomon built a lick, and almost certainly are figments of the authors’ fertile imaginations. ‘Israel’ was an organised society of Palestinians, called Canaanites then, in the North of Palestine when the people who came to be the Hebrews were an utterly unorganised group of semi-nomads in the Judaean hills.
There is lots morre…… but it is also a fact that Titus was a very unpleasant and efficient exterminator and he set out to kill every Jew living in Judaea/Palestine 70-77AD.
Thus today’s Jews, if not descended from converts, are mostly descended from Jews who had already voluntarily emigrated by 70AD.
St Paul’s copious Epistles were written to Jewish settlements…….
The easiest book to read about the b.s. of Jewish origins was written by the Director of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University, another Finkelstein. Israel, and David Asher Silberman.
Jesus was born in Nazareth, of Jewish parents living in a predominantly non-Jewish town.
Someone suggested a parallel above with tghe Indian population of the US, that` we immigrants must leave, on the same basis, and give the US back to them.
Contemporaneous with the non-owners of Palestine being dispossessed is France. Should all non-majority-Celtblooded French be driven back ove the Rhine and back into Italy? Yes indeed. Should all non-majority-Celtic blooded Britoons be sent back to wherever.
Bearing in mind that every blond Russian is Swedish — perhaps every blond, should they all get sent back to Sweden? Think how good their women’s tennis team would be!!!
A number of monied influential Jews conned the British and then a much larger and richer group have conned the American people.
In 1958 when i began travelling a US passport was the safest in the world, especially in the Middle East, because Americans were always nice and always friendly and unthreatening, whether tourist or on business. There was no difference between them and their government. By the end of 1967 the world and the M East knew that the US was one-eyed in its unevenhanded support for Israel. The USS Liberty Google it!) was listening to the Israeli Army murdering Egyptian army prisoners because they could not be bothered to feed them. The Israeli Airforce bombed the hell out of that ship. President Johnson DID NOTHING, because The Lobby owned him. The Arabs knew.
Islamist fundamentalism grew from then: in effect, we caused its invention..
Phoenix Woman @ 22
I believe this is true. I did close to 1500 audio interviews at the anti-invasion marches in Oct 2002 Wash D.C. and in New York in Feb of 2003. I focused on people over the age of 65 and interviewed many older Jewish people lots of sweet older couples who were completely against the invasion and many were carrying Fascist signs. Of course the mainstream media did not interview these people or the thousands of WWII, Korean, Vietnam and Desert Storm vets who marched againt the invasion.
The radical right(wrong) won out! Everyone lost!
angie @ 36
In one of the later chapters in Carter’s book “Palestine Peace: Not Apartheid”, on Bush 41’s administration. Carter let’s us know that at an A-pac conference Baker told the crowd that plans for a “Greater Israel’ needed to cease. And that Israel needed to stop expanding the illegal settlements. The neo-cons hate Baker.
Pach, if you’re reading on the end of this thread (interrupted by M0ss*d), that was one helluva courageous post, not to mention spot on.
LS @
109
Does AIPAC register as an agent of a foreign power?
Wigwam @ 138
The Council for National Interest (CNI) is demanding that Aipac do so.
brendan @
31
I’m pretty sure the relationship is as follows:
In an argument where Israel’s foreign policy is brought up, A*P*C is also brought up, in the context of being representative of the Jewish perspective. The most virulent opposition to any questioning of or inquiries about the foreign policy comes from those who are a part of, or beholden to A*P*C. Anyone who questions A*P*C itself, or any part of Israel’s foreign policy is called anti-Semitic at the drop of a hat.
Never does the MSM give the perspective of the actual Jews living in the US. Never does the MSM cover the protests that the Jewish-Americans themselves have participated in in reference to the war in Iraq, or their perspective on Israel’s foreign policy.
Ergo, from any layman’s perspective, it would appear that Jewish-Americans support the war, and support everything that Israel does (and in many of the more conservative circles, Israel = Judaism, a patently false premise). The fact that this runs quite contrary to the actual opinions of Jewish-Americans doesn’t seem to matter to those so-called journalists whose journalistic integrity comes in to question more and more each day. FDL’s amazing coverage of the Libby trial, which forced the MSM to at least make a passing attempt at actual journalism, is evidence of the corruption of the MSM.
As Pachacutec quite astutely pointed out, pushing the Middle East into war and inciting chaos in the region is not conducive to a safe Israel. On the contrary, it is the swift road to Israel’s demise.
Diplomacy, on the other hand, and the shoring up of our alliances in and around the region is both Israel’s and the US’s path to peace and prosperity.
A*P*C’s agenda, by all appearances, is to prevent diplomacy and stability in the region at all costs. If this is by design, they are an evil, evil group of people. If this is simply a lack of understanding of how diplomatic relationships are enacted, maintained and strengthened, then they are an incompetent group of people. Either way, their agenda is extremely dangerous to both the US and Israel, and in turn, the rest of the world. I tend to lean towards the belief that they are evil and warmongering, not incompetent.
Pachacutec –
You are a psychologist (psychiatrist?), aren’t you? George Bush is obviously a sociopath, isn’t he? I know medical personnel can’t make diagnoses without examining the person BUT this is obvious.
He has no clue about pain (physical or mental) for humans. Any he tries to show is so fake.
Jeez, people…..this isn’t a dialogue, it’s a bloody Greek chorus. (I’m Greek, so I can say that : ) )
I hate the Bush administration, hate the war in Iraq, have nothing but contempt for Joe Lieberman, and don’t want to go to war against Iran.
Nor do I believe that criticism of Israel or respect for Palestinians is necessarily anti-Semitic.
But it is just NOT this simple. If anyone has read the below Times op-ed by Stanly Fish, I would appreciate a response.
http://fish.blogs.nytimes.com/?p=36
(also, just btw, I didn’t think that catering to bully commenters was what this place was all about.)
Just popping back to catch up on comments, as my toobz were clogged for a while tonight. Still catching up, but I want to address one apparent misconception.
There seems to be some kind of assumption that I wrote this post in response to some recent commentary on the site. This happens not to be true. I have not seen any of the discussion people seem to be referring to.
I wish I could catch up with every comment thread, but in reality, I can’t. For threads I lack the time to read through, I do a search on my screen name to see if anyone is directing questions my way so I can be responsive, but often, that’s the best I can do.
I’ve always been interested in this subject and have touched on it before. I’ve often talked about it with other bloggers who themselves have written about various aspects of it. Last night, when I saw the NYT report of Cheney’s comments, I decided to use a time slot today to discuss this.
I had been thinking I would write about immigration and the new orphans we’ve created in New Bedford, MA, and still wish I’d have the time to do an immigration post, as I’ve been collecting some links. But last night’s news made me change my mind, and today’s events on the Hill with the Blue Dogs cemented my intent.
I don’t know if any of that matters. I often get ideas from the comments, and highly value the input here. Just today I sent a comment around to some friends and Howie Klein quoted it in a post at DownWithTyranny. But in this case, well, I came by this post on my own.
Coincidences happen by definition but the comments yesterday left the impression that this topic is too controversial in effect it needed to be censored. I don’t come here for foreign policy but it was important to demonstrate that censorship is not part of the program.
Maybe you don’t read the comments but could someone had whispered your way?
It doesn’t matter
In the NYT op-ed that oddmommy refers to, Stanley Fish cites the view, which he
associates with Mearsheimer and Walt’s LRB article, that criticism of Israel ‘is always re-described as anti-Semitism’. Fish then contrasts Yale’s Charles Small and Edward Kaplan to the effect that opposition to Israel is in fact often accompanied by anti-Semitism. Fish concludes that anti-Semitism is alive and well, and that Jews have good reason to feel ‘precarious’.
Fine, but that’s not responsive to Pachacutec’s point that:
‘AIPAC and its neocon allies in the United States have made a pact with the devil of global militarism, paradoxically, against the interests of the people of Israel and the United States. What does it mean to be a “friend of Israel?” ’.
I would if I could read the durn thing. But it’s behind the Times Select firewall. Quote it for us?
It’s not that I don’t read the comments, but that I don’t have time all days to read them all. It’s not that I disdain to read them, it’s just that I’m a part time blogger and a full time business owner. Can’t do it all.
You’re right, it doesn’t matter, but since it seems to be a question with some buzz, accuracy seems warranted. No one whispered anything. The conception of this post is as I described above.
Night Musing @ 146
#147… you just collided with a heated exchange.
That could have been avoided by just admitting that this is not a blog to discuss foreign policy. It does what it does extrememly well but that does not include foreign policy.
#146… it is a very long article.
Mark, I don’t know what you’re talking about, but may I suggest you don’t, either?
I’m off to bed so I’ll look forward to more of this tomorrow. Cheers!
Very cool Pachacutec… you can’t be claiming this excellent blog is evenly balanced or even modestly tuned to foreign policy. When you wake up maybe you will be thinking clearer.
Here is an excerpt from the Fish column:
Why, they ask, should our foreign policy be held hostage to the interests of a small country that is perfectly capable of defending itself and is guilty of treating the Palestinians, whose land it appropriated, in ways that are undemocratic and even, in the opinion of many, criminal?
A now famous answer to this question was given a year ago in the title of an article in the London Review of Books written by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt: “The Israel Lobby.” Mearsheimer and Walt contend that American Middle East policy “derives almost entirely from domestic politics, and especially the activities of the ‘Israel Lobby,’” which they describe as an incredibly powerful “coalition of individuals and organisations who actively work to steer U.S. foreign policy in a pro-Israel direction.” The goal of the coalition, they assert, is to get “America to help Israel remain the dominant regional power,” and so successful has it been that “the United States has become the de facto enabler of Israeli expansion in the Occupied Territories, making it complicit in the crimes perpetrated against the Palestinians.”
So there you have it. The war was a huge mistake and is causing us no end of trouble at home and in the world at large. The lobby that led us into it is “a de facto agent for a foreign government” – Israel. Members of that lobby are largely, though not exclusively, Jewish. And that’s where the anti-Semitism comes in. Or does it? One reason the lobby is “immune from criticism,” Mearsheimer and Walt explain, is that criticism, when it appears, is always re-described as anti-Semitism, and “anti-Semitism is something no one wants to be accused of.” Their point, and it has been made by many, is that there is no reason to assume that those who criticize Israel and argue that America’s uncritical support for a flawed state is strategically unwise and morally wrong are anti-Semitic.
Maybe so, but there is some empirical evidence to the contrary. Charles Small and his Yale colleague Edward Kaplan have recently published an article in the Journal of Conflict Resolution, the title of which also tells its own story: “Anti-Israel Sentiment Predicts Anti-Semitism in Europe.” What Small and Kaplan find is that “Those with extreme anti-Israel sentiment are roughly six times more likely to harbor anti-Semitic views than those who do not fault Israel on the measures studied, and among those respondents deeply critical of Israel, the fraction that harbors anti-Semitic views exceeds 50 percent.” The authors conclude that, “even after controlling for numerous potentially confounding factors,” “anti-Israel sentiment consistently predicts the probability that an individual is anti-Semitic” and will say things like “Jews don’t care what happens to anyone but their own kind” or “Jews are more loyal to Israel than to this country” or “Jews have too much power in international financial markets.”
Small and Kaplan are careful to disclaim any causal implications that might be drawn from their analysis: they are not saying that anti-Semitism produces opposition to Israel or that opposition to Israel produces anti-Semitism, only that the two attitudes will more often than not be found in the same individual: scratch an opponent of Israel and you are likely – 56 percent of the time – to find an anti-Semite. This does suggest that if opposition to Israel increases, there will be an increase in anti-Semitism because the population of the 56 percenters will be larger. Is this something Jews, even Jews living in the United States, should be apprehensive about?
The answer to that question will depend on whether you think that there is a meaningful distinction to be made between the “old” and the “new” anti-Semitism. Old anti-Semitism, according to Brian Klug of Oxford University, is based on a hostility to and fear of “the Jew” as an alien and demonic figure. In this ancient and much retailed story, Klug tells us, in an article in Catalyst magazine last year, subhuman Jews wander from country to country and “form a state within a state, preying on the societies in whose midst they dwell.” This is the anti-Semitism that came to full and disastrous flower in Nazi Germany.
The new anti-Semitism, in contrast, Klug continues, is rooted not in a hostility to “the Jew” as a vampire-like destroyer of cultures, but “in the controversial nature of the State of Israel and its policies.” As such, “it is not a mutation of an existing ‘virus,’ but a brand new ‘bug.’” That is to say, its origin is political rather than racial, and there is at least a chance that if its political source were removed – if Israel’s policies were to change – its force would abate.
So there you have two stories: anti-Semitism is on the rise and it’s time to get out those “Never Again” signs. Or, it’s not anti-Semitism in the old virulent sense, but a rational, if problematic, response by Middle East actors and their supporters in the West to what they see as “an oppressive occupying force”; don’t take it personally. I understand this second story, and appreciate its nuance, but I can’t bring myself to accept it, if only because I believe that the viral version of anti-Semitism is always capable of regaining its full and deadly form even when it is apparently dormant or weakened. All it needs is a pretext, and any pretext will do. If the Israeli-Palestinian conflict didn’t exist, it would attach itself to something else; but it does exist, and anti-Semitism couldn’t be happier.
Because I think this way, I can imagine a time in the not-so-distant future when American Jews might feel precarious once again. There is a certain irrationality to this imagining, given that at this moment, I am sitting in a very nice house in Delray Beach, Fla., and taking advantage of the opportunity afforded me by The New York Times to have my say on anything I like every Monday. And in a few months I will repair to an equally nice house in the upstate New York town of Andes, where I will be engaging in the same pleasurable activity. Sounds like a good life, and it is. So why am I entertaining fantasies of being dispossessed or discriminated against or even threatened?
Part of the answer lies in the fact that I spend much of my time in colleges and universities, where anti-Israel sentiment flourishes and is regarded more or less as a default position. And I have seen (with apologies to Shelley) that when hostility to Israel comes, anti-Semitism is not far behind. But the deeper explanation of my apprehension is generational. One of my closest friends and I agree on almost everything, but we part company on this question. He tells, and believes, the “criticism of Israel is one thing, anti-Semitism another” story. I hear it, but I can’t buy it. He is 10 years my junior. I remember World War II. By the time he was born it was history. Maybe it’s that simple.
The Fish column is an hodgepodge o’ crap.
Example:
The new anti-Semitism, in contrast, Klug continues, is rooted not in a hostility to “the Jew” as a vampire-like destroyer of cultures, but “in the controversial nature of the State of Israel and its policies.”
Really? So some guy (Klug) finds it convient to label opposition to Israel antisemitism? That certianly explains this:
Part of the answer lies in the fact that I spend much of my time in colleges and universities, where anti-Israel sentiment flourishes and is regarded more or less as a default position. And I have seen (with apologies to Shelley) that when hostility to Israel comes, anti-Semitism is not far behind.
Once you’ve labeled hostility to Israel as antisemitism…I suppose you’ll find antisemitism behind every anti-Israel position.
Once you’ve labeled hostility to Israel as antisemitism…I suppose you’ll find antisemitism behind every anti-Israel position.
Did you even READ the article? The whole point is that we need to look more closely behind the kind of knee jerk sound bite you just recited — because…MAYBE….SOMETIMES….something ugly might be lurking there.
The whole point is that we need to look more closely behind the kind of knee jerk sound bite you just recited — because…MAYBE….SOMETIMES….something ugly might be lurking there.
Well, it’s quite simple, you should take arguments for what they are and not for what they could be.
And again with:
because…MAYBE….SOMETIMES….something ugly might be lurking there
How will you discern that? Or will you just assume it? Or, do want people to always suspect it when the hear bad things said about Israel?
Well, it’s quite simple, you should take arguments for what they are and not for what they could be.
Oh, okay. THAT’s what I’ve been doing wrong for the last six years….not taking what I’m told at face value. Yes, this war was all about protecting our country from terrorists….why should I consider any other possibility?
How will you discern that? Or will you just assume it? Or, do want people to always suspect it when the hear bad things said about Israel?
No, I do not want to assume or suspect, and I certainly don’t think lurking ugliness can be discerned without close scrutiny.
Beginning with a hint for the subtlety-challenged: in 2007 America, most people don’t drive cars with “I hate Jews” bumper stickers.
Thank you Pach, the issue is an important one and shouldn’t be overlooked or squelched. It is a subject that needs civil debate and the truth skimmed off of the top. I think FDL is skimming the top now. Thanks again.
Good post. Keep it up.
The role of lobbyists and of Israel merits a balanced discussion, and for too long we have not seen nor heard the arguments in opposition. I have paid attention to the attacks on President Carter in the media for his recent book and am convinced by them that opposition to the simple of discussion of Israeli influence on American foreign policy is being suppressed –and with the help of politicians and the media.
It is a wrong and disgusting state of affairs.
I agree with 159 and for what it is worth, I don’t think Jimmy Carter has an antiSemitic bone in his body.
Note, however, that the wrong and disgusting influence of powerful lobbies on policy — and lawmaking — in this country, and the suppression of any discussion thereof by politicians the MSM, extends to many, many other areas besides this one.