
Over at Salon recently, Kevin Berger interviewed Evan Kohlmann, who is considered to be an expert on the Iraqi insurgency and who has done consulting work for the DoD, CIA and other government agencies, and asked him, among other things, what the US should be doing in Iraq.
Kohlmann rules out a US withdrawal, for the following chilling reason (emphases mine):
If we withdraw from Iraq right now, there's no doubt what will happen. First there's going to be a war for control of Baghdad and then once Baghdad is ripped to the ground, the battle is going to spread across Iraq. It could potentially be like Rwanda. Right now, hundreds of people are being killed each month, which is awful and horrifying in itself. Imagine if that figure was 100 times bigger. Also, if we withdraw, a widespread war is going to be entirely our responsibility. It's easy to say it's Iraqis killing Iraqis. But nobody else is going to see it that way. Everyone is going to affix blame to us. We will ultimately cause a situation that forces us to reinvade Iraq and create even more casualties. It's an awful Catch 22.
But when asked to say what the US should do, instead of withdrawal, Kohlmann can only say this:
We have to give people a reason to stop supporting al-Qaida. And the only way to do that is to punish the people who are harming them. We have to show that democratic forces can also hold up justice. Right now, democracy for Iraqis amounts to Shiites in control of the police force and running everything. The things that might convince Sunnis to move back in the other direction would be a real step at trying to reform the Iraqi police force, the Interior Ministry, and try and bring some of the individuals in those places, which have committed gross crimes, including crimes on the scale of Saddam Hussein, to justice.
All of this is fine and dandy, but…
…but of course he doesn't propose to show how all of this can be done — probably because he knows that it CAN'T be done. What I just quoted above is all he had to say on the subject.
And in the very next breath, he admits that Bush wouldn't be capable of pulling it off anyway:
I thought perhaps, in invading Iraq, they had some long-term view that nobody else could see. But that hope faded very quickly. The Bush administration didn't reach out to anyone credible when they were asking about, for instance, the connections between al-Qaida and Saddam Hussein. Anybody with any real knowledge of the region would have told them there are no connections between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaida. The only people who believed that nonsense were lunatics.
Staying in Iraq long-term, no matter how much Bush and his PNAC Platoon buddies want to keep control (via Executive Order 13303) of the billions and billions of oil revenue money coming out of Iraq, is simply impossible. Our armed forces are already fraying at the seams, and the day is fast approaching when unit cohesion is going to collapse the way it did in Vietnam, when troop mutinies and "fragging" became distressingly common.
In addition, to do what Kohlmann recommends would require tripling or quadrupling the number of American troops in Iraq to have even an outside chance of succeeding – and even if Bush were willing to call up a draft to do this (and thus ensure that the Democrats win big in 2008), there's simply no way the draftees could be trained fast enough and well enough to do the job, as there aren't enough people around Stateside to do that; most of the people who would be training them are themselves stuck in Iraq or Afghanistan. We couldn't get the draftees trained and into Iraq fast enough to save the unit cohesion of the troops already there.
The military commanders, even the ones Bush cherry-picked, all know this. General Petraeus has recently tacitly admitted as much, hence his push for talks with all parties, including Iran.
Speaking of Iran: What happens if Bush launches an attack on that country? I'll tell you what happens: The Shiites join the Sunni insurgents in attacking us in Iraq. We start losing bases in Iraq, one by one. The airport falls — trapping the tens of thousands of non-Iraqis living in the Green Zone next door, as their safest escape route out of Iraq is now gone. And those troops that do survive will do so only via a fighting withdrawal to Turkey or Syria or whichever of Iraq's neighbors is least likely to shoot them on sight.
The inconvenient truth here is that there are no 'good' options in Iraq right now. Leaving may well cause a much, much bigger series of bloodbaths than are already occurring, as well as send the price of oil skyrocketing as the Shiites fight the Sunnis for control of the oil rigs (which is, I suspect, what many if not most of the we-can't-leave folks really fear; Juan Cole, at least, was honest enough to give $20-a-gallon gas as a reason for the US to stay).
But there is no way that the US can stay in Iraq. It's just not feasible. It's also a particularly brutal proof of Einstein's famous truism that the problems that exist in the world today cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them. The same people who planned the invasion have also been the unwitting architects of its undoing, by trashing the readiness of our armed forces and their ability to train new members, and trashing our credibility and reputation both in Iraq and elsewhere. It's one gigantic flustered cluck, and there are no possible "good" solutions to it — only those marked "bad" and "much, much worse". The main point of argument is "Which solution hurts the least amount of people in the long run?"
It now looks undeniable that a US withdrawal is that solution.



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Waxman! and Roots!
PW!
FDL!
Al-qaida? Surely not al-qaida? This guy’s as screwed up as bushcheneyco.
WITHDRAWAL!
Coming up next, further denials from the Bush administration.
I fear that the main point of argument may instead become, “Which solution hurts the least amount of American people in the long run?”
Which is a different calculus altogether.
Excellent post, PW. Why do you make me think so hard?
FDL looks a little fluster clucked tonight. Has the formatting of the comments been changed? I see white space between header and comment and between comment and footer (Quote This Comment.) If its FDL and not me (I am running some updates here) then the change makes it harder to read.
I think that the “100 times bigger” part is BS. there will be a lot of killings and a lot of refugees, but at some point a partitioned Iraq will stabilize according to the military power balance, with constant skirmishing but not Ruanda-like chaos.
Iraq is almost completely unlike Ruanda. I don’t want to go into detail, but the idea that all poor dark nations are similiar is just stupid.
To quote a bumper sticker that is appropriate:
WAR IS TERRORISM
Isn’t it nice when the “expert” puts forth the lingo that proves and contradicts their statement of truth?
If this is the kind of quality staff we have working for us, must we maintain this one’s employment? it is rather obviously not qualified for truthspeak, thus perfect for our leaders ministry of information. but not for the intelligence, for it seems to lack that.
Neil — all’s well at my place, perhaps your updates are clustering things for you?
Where is my comment? It got posted in this thread. Now its gone. Did Siun see it? If the formatting on your end chnaged or is it me?
Ignore 11. It’s back. So freekin wierd. Sorry.
Neil @
7
Have you been experimenting with HTML tonight? ;) Mine looks OK.
Mr. Kohlmann has his head up his ass.
With 60-70% of Iraqis saying continued US presence in the country is exacerbating the problem, the first act of a truly democracy-minded country would be to ask the people–and that’s not a question this administration is going to ask.
Al-Qaeda is not the problem in Iraq. We are.
PHOENIX WOMAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!
Huzzah!!
Hey, does anyone here know anything interesting about the life of Camille Saint-Saens? I’m trying to write my intro to tonight’s show…
The blame does not fall to “us.”
It falls completely to George Bush and his puppetmasters. The war crimes to come are completely theirs. They should be made to pay.
That said, we are still in deep shit in this country and will remain so until we figure out how to make government serve the people.
As Juan Cole said, I believe, sometime in 2004, regarding the options then facing us in Iraq, “sometimes you are just fucked.”
Things have not gotten better.
What a sorry mark on humanity. I knew before the war that it shouldn’t happen, didn’t you guys? How could the congress pass this resolution? OK,OK, but how could the dems vote for it?
The pertinent thing for this Demo is, where the Hell is my party? I am really getting fed up.
60 to 70 percent of the A*PAC conference audience just booed Harry Reid for suggesting Iraq is a wrong course.
60 – 70 percent of Americans and Iraqis want us out of Iraq.
What Democracy?
Mitch McConnell is on CPSAN2, speaking at AIPCA.
oldtree @ 10
Yeah. The two main reasons that I was inclined to take him seriously were a) the DoD and other outfits did, and b) aside from the “we can’t leave” stuff, he sounds like he could be one of us in terms of Bush-bashing. But I’m not so sure now — I think this has more to do with the oil than the Iraqis. (Granted, $20 oil would be a catastrophe for the world, but I suspect that none of the factions in Iraq wants to see that happen. Besides, Hugo Chavez is about ready to step up his extra-heavy crude production to the next level, thanks to Chinese and Indian investment.)
I have been pleasantly surprised by Kohlman in the past – up until his rather incoherent comments about al-Quaida in this interview – his comments have always seemed t/b reality based and way out in front of other TradMed selected pundits -
Postponing withdrawal is postponing the inevitable. Nobody in history has been able to maintain a foreign empire there for long. The US is no different.
The neocons do not want to give up their mil. bases, their green zone, oil, cash and other perks. The locals will never stop attacking American assets until they are gone.
Once the invaders are out, Iraq will make its own government within two or three Freidman units. It will be bloody and we won’t like their Muslim Theocratic government, but that’s what will happen. Some have said we were better off with Saddam. At least he had a secular government and he kept the peoples from killing each other.
How to rid the party of the DLC?
God, here we have another idiot speaking his sublte support of Bush’s frayed and idiotic policies on how to deal with Iraq! What we call a civil war the Iraqis see as dealing with quislings, collaborators. If we were gone, they just might restore order on their own. Never will, as long as this asinine attitude that we alone are able to restore freedom–we need to salvage what is left of ours right here.
Morris Sheppard @ 18
Yeah. In fact, they’ve got worse.
Granted, it would have been bad even if professionals instead of zampolit were running the show. But then again, the professionals would never have done this in the first place.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 25
1) Primary opponents.
2) http://www.publicampaign.org (to remove a chunk of the money from politics — many of the DLC/Blue Doggers are the way they are because they see it as the only way to earn enough campaign $ to win).
The Democratic party is rolling over and letting Hillary have the nomination.
Excellent post. Chaos will result when we leave in 6 months or 2 years. The real question is management of a bad situation. How do we stage the withdrawal, how do we deal with the resulting chaos, it will be messy and a lot of people will die. As bad as that is the current state of denial is worse and only delays the inevitable. There are costs to stupidity, and many of those of Bush, Cheney, and those who elected them have yet to be paid, and will be paid not by them but by others.
Warning: I’ll be putting up another Adventure in my NYT series here in the comments in a few minutes.
Neil? you rang?
Kohlman et all ignore the basic truth – we have raped Iraq, we continue to rape Iraq and we apparently will continue for forseeable future.
Phoenix Woman @ 29
I can accept that. What nags me is Lamont’s loss.
Ken @ 3 – I reacted to this remark as well: “We have to give people a reason to stop supporting al-Qaida. And the only way to do that is to punish the people who are harming (sic) them.’ (should be arming them, I’m guessing).
That statement sounds wrong to me, which oddly still gives me hope that the outcome, if and when we leave, might not be as dire as everyone predicts. I also have this suspicion that while there will be increased chaos, the experts are underestimating the potential for neighborhoods, villages, and tribes to mete out security once it is clear to all that we interloping Americans are leaving lock, stock, and barrell. I also still like Murtha’s idea of redeploying off the streets and out of Iraq to nearby bases, but being able to mobilize to thwart outright genocidal killing.
The main thing that I hope is being underestimated is the extent of Iraqi nationalism. Iraqi Shia don’t want to have Iranian overlords and Iraqi Sunni don’t want foreign Al Qaeda to set up the seed for their bloody Wahabbi caliphate there. While the sectarian violence is longstanding all too real, I hold out this hope that there is an element of sectarian chaos that will abate once occupying military are GONE. It will get settled between neighbors by neighbors and no one else.
And another thing:
I do not understand why we should accept the prognostications of “experts” that if we leave things will become unimaginably horrible anymore than we should have accepted the predictions of the wonderfullness of the invasion itself. Many by these same “experts.”
What if we leave and the Iraqis, and the Iranis, and the Syrians all look into the abyss and manage to come up with a way of salvaging the situation, and avoiding their own destruction, all on their own?
Yes, we blew the lid off this volcano, but does not predicting a regional bloodbath and genocide both convey the “bigotry of low expectations” and an utter lack of faith in the people of the region? If they are so incapable of serving their own interests, why then is it our obligation to serve them? This war will live on as a monument to hubris and stupidity no matter what happens next, but I, for one, am all in favor of seeing less Americans die and less American resources squandered in a sure-to-fail attempt to rectify that.
Eureka Springs, AR @ 21
do they think that attacking iraq was good thing for israelis?
nuts.
Come to Washington!! We just set up the “Troops Out Now” encampment on the Mall in front of the Capitol. Anti-war activists will be gathering all week. Friday Night we will be marching from the National Cathedral to the White House to demand an end to the occupation, and Saturday we will be marching from the Vietnam Memorial to the Pentagon. There will be opportunities for civil disobedience all week, as well as on the weekend, if that is your cup of tea.
Come help us tell the congress and the president to stop the war!!! Isn’t it a worthy duty?
peace,
jim
IOKIYAR Part I
Adventures in Reading the New York Times March 9 Edition
One of my complaints about coverage of politics in the Times is that they almost never try to analyze the information they are given. The good news is that the article “Democrats Steer the War in Iraq in Fits and Starts” by Robin Toner with Carl Hulse contributing does that. The bad news is that it doesn’t do it very well.
The article points out correctly that major policies like a war of an entrenched President are difficult to oppose directly. You have to work up to it and achieve a consensus. At the current time, the Democrats are only beginning this process and they are both fairly afraid and divided about it.
Up to this point, I essentially agree although the Democrats have had 4 years to work toward a unified position on Iraq, just saying.
Where I really part company is in the analysis of how all this plays out with the $100 billion supplemental spending bill for Iraq and Afghanistan. Basically, Toner’s argument is that the Democrats can’t defund so all they have left is hearings. Things may very well fall out this way but not because the Democrats can’t defund but because they won’t defund, having bought into the same confused, rickety narrative that Toner has.
It is this which I wish to examine.
From the beginning there has been a profoundly dishonest equation between defunding the troops and defunding a bankrupt policy. No one is talking about defunding our soldiers. No one. This is on par with Bush and Cheney’s repeated contention that we all must agree with whatever they want, or the terrorists win. It conveniently forgets that Congressional Republicans had no problem threatening to cut off funds for Clinton era deployments to the Balkans and Somalia.
Then, of course, there is this Catch 22 of the Administration and its supporters. Democrats are criticized for having no plan for Iraq, but when they present one, they are accused of “micromanaging” and usurping the role of the Commander in Chief.
I had to include this quote if for no other reason than to show that Gordon Smith’s much publicized angst over the war doesn’t extend to actually doing anything about it.
Today, Andrea Mitchell made the utterly false statement that a majority of Americans would like Scooter Libby to be pardoned.
Her and her network colleagues, including Timmeh Russert, could benefit from being humbled a bit.
I would like to start a contest among FDL readers.
The winner is the first person who gets himself on camera in the crowd on the Today Show holding a large sign that simply says in large, clear writing:
Dick Cheney Controls Tim Russert
Wouldn’t that be beautiful?
More than a few of the leaders of my party just don’t seem to get ‘it’. I am assuming we did not vote for more of the same last November. And I am thinking that progressives, liberals, left wingers and rads need to consider lining up behind a Democratic candidate for prez soon.
I tell you Admiral Fallon is very cherry picked. He stopped the invasion of Chad from Libya back in the ’80’s with his Intruder Squadron, and covered in Lebanon all the White House screw ups there at the same time. Too bad Perot couldn’t bring on Admiral James B. Stockdale as vice president back there in ‘92 etc. We wouldn’t be believing our own BS about a new world globalization, and how Jimmy Carter saw bunnys’ in the pond.
IOKIYAR Part II
Toner also unquestioningly recycles the perennial charge that Democrats are weak on defense.
How hard is it really for a reporter like Toner to use the google to find polls on how well the Republican in Chief is doing on “national security issues.” If he had he might have come across these from the most recent AP/Ipsos poll of March 5-7, 2007. Bush was rated as follows
Handling foreign policy issues and the war on terrorism: 38% approve; 61% disapprove
Handling the situation in Iraq: 32% approve; 66% disapprove
http://www.ipsos-na.com/news/c…..mp;id=3399
So most Americans think Bush is doing a terrible job in these areas, but it’s the Democrats who have the problem. Could this perhaps be because media like the Times keep repeating this story despite the facts to the contrary? And while the Walter Reed scandal certainly sheds light on Republican hypocrisy with regard to the troops. A much more potent example can be found in the 4 years of Republican failure in Iraq that has killed thousands of Americans and tens (perhaps hundreds) of thousands of Iraqis to no purpose. The New York Times remains scared to death to commit to pixels or ink the simple truth that while Bush and the Republicans postured year after year after year after year, Iraq was going up in flames. Republicans have been screwing around with Iraq and the lives of American soldiers and Iraqis for longer than the Second World War, but the stenography of the mainstream media persists in warning us that it’s the Democrats that we need to be worried about.
Finally, Toner notes
Let us consider this for a moment. First, the Democratic bill is a lot weaker than advertised. It requires only that Bush certify progress in Iraq on June 1 and again on October 1. If he does so, and there is little doubt that he would regardless of circumstances on the ground in Iraq, he can keep troops there until September of next year, deep into the election campaign.
But even if a withdrawal was mandated (which I wish it were), look at the situation. Congressional Republicans would be fighting against not only withdrawal but funding of the troops, precisely the two issues that most Americans agree on. Support the troops and get them out of Iraq. Because the $100 billion supplemental is about funding the troops, it is a must pass bill. You don’t pass it, you aren’t funding the troops. This is true in the House, in the Senate, in the White House. It is as true for Republicans as it is for Democrats. Yet the inside the beltway narrative is that all the risk lies with the Democrats. It is yet another instance of the pernicious meme that everything is good for the Republicans and nothing is good for the Democrats. If Republicans vote against funding, that’s principled. If Democrats vote against a murderous policy, that’s treason.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03…..ref=slogin
JimPreston @ 36
You go, Jim! Wish I could go.
TRex @
16
All I can remember is Saint-Saens depised the first birth name Charles but the details escape me. :~(
This worries me:
AP – Top House Democrats retreated Monday from an attempt to limit President Bush’s authority for taking military action against Iran as the leadership concentrated on a looming confrontation with the White House over the Iraq war.
I voted for the Speaker many times while living in her area in California. I still support our Speaker. But…
Another thought. If the democrats postpone getting out of there now, they (we) really will own it in ‘09. It’s got to be done now.
Is it me, or did these people give up any attempt to even pretend to be serious?
This well-written post by Phoenix Woman (thank you!) and the discussion in the last thread, which I just finished reading, has my heart heavy.
What can we do to overcome the influence of the warmongers in our own society and elsewhere on this poor sad globe?
Once upon a time, Tom Friedman wrote books which actually weren’t too bad. I remember reading one of his, From Beirut to Jerusalem was what it was called, IIRC.
One chapter toward the end really really stuck with me. He outlined in detail the massive, unbelievably organized public relations machine operated in the U.S. by Isr*el (in particular, Isr*el’s far right) to monitor and then ultimately control everything said about Isr*el in the so-called free press. Friedman, in that book, was highly critical of the whole operation. It was stunning and very unsettling to read about. And that was many long years ago. Recent news articles have indicated that this coordinated news monitoring and news influencing machine has been modified to include news sources and discussion groups on the Internet.
Of course, our own government does this to us as well. Probably even we here at FDL would be shocked if we knew the whole extent of manipulation of the public discussion to enforce what can and what can’t be up for debate in these extraordinarily dangerous and war-drenched times.
What on earth can we do in the face of so much energy put into the control and narrowing of our “options”?
Don’t worry, I’m not in danger of total demoralization here. I just think that we have to keep coming up with newer, more creative tactics in order to confound our military-industrial overlords somehow. Am eager to hear the ideas of other Firepups.
Now congress dems have backed off “no iran”. I’m sick.
*xyz @ 37
Andrea Mitchell needs to get the HOOK, at least on MSNBC for starters
“You are entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts”. – Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan
ok, i’ve had a few beers tonight, tried to get people to think bigger on the israeli/palistinian/iran thing, due to my historian uncle’s perspective, it didn’t draw a comment…….
so, i will try from the tibetan buddhist temperament-
from my dali lama daily calendar from my sister:
and notice i’m using caps, which i never do:
but for him i will——
When we apply our reason when addressing a problem, we have to be vigilant in ensuring that we remain honest, self-aware, and unbiased; the danger otherwise is that we may fall victim to self-delusion.
We have troops! They’re probably better trained than some of the recent ’surge’ units posted. There’s the final training site in California which was supposed to complete training in desert conditions. The powers that be decided it wasn’t really necessary …
Here’s one list of U.S. bases I just found.
U.S. military bases
According to some postings on the web, some claim an admitted figure of 737. Others declare there are actually 1000 as many countries don’t want it known they are involved.
From what I read about the situation in Okinawa, the locals would be damn glad to see all military personnel gone. But hey, we may not need a draft or other measures if our leaders can just keep recycling the injured back to Baghdad.on.the.Styx …
itwasntme @ 50
Somebody said that the head of A*PAC was on C-Span and had boasted that he was turning loose 5000 lobbyists onto Capitol Hill.
Why they want to see Americans die when the Shia and Sunni unite against us in Iraq is beyond me. It’s not as if invading Iraq worked out all that well for Israel’s security.
The Bush administration got us into this mess, largely by deluding a gullible, misled public.
They’re the ones that have to get us out of it, and they won’t. They don’t want to do so, and Congress isn’t unified enough (or is too compromised) to decide to support the current wishes of that same public.
But, it’s not as if there are no plans to get out of there. This one can’t be any worse than staying for years and watching the misery increase.
I can say this: I will not let go of my party, the Democratic party easily and without a fight. I will not go quietly into the night. But if I do go, it won’t be pretty.
dmac @ 52
That’s “it” in a nutshell.
Discourse must follow.
I see nothing that has benefitted Israel since Bush took over. I don’t blame Israel for what’s going on in the Middle East. I blame us.
OfT: Chris Dodd backstage for his Daily Show appearance tonite.
*xyz @ 39
Ding!
Beautiful Indeed and I’d do it in a New York minute if I didn’t live on the left coast.
AIPAC represents the extreme Likudist right wing of Israeli politics. As things continue to get worse for Israel, most recently demonstrated by the botched “war” against Hezbollah, in large part because of Likud policies and Bush — a fact many Israelis are beginning to understand, perhaps their influence will begin to wane. One can only hope.
What needs to be realized is that supporting AIPAC is not supporting Israel. In fact, just the opposite. We need to publicize and support the Israeli opposition.
Two things:
1. Nothing we afford to do can be realistically expected to make things better for Iraqis. All the Kohlmann strategy boils down to is to get a few thousand more Americans killed so that the local (xxxxxxxxx) will eat the Sunnis last. There is something manly we can do: Admit Bush was wrong, cut our losses, and get out. (And yes, our well deserved international pariah state will continue for decades, but that’s a given already.)
2. What struck me today about the Sunni vs. Shia is that there are no ’swing Moslems’. That was Karl Rove’s big insight into American politics: It’s just base vs. base. Iraq is just Red vs. Blue in a country with no economy and no gun control. We’re not as far from that as I once liked to believe.
mod note from Siun – wmcq, your choice of words was racist and has been deleted – your ignorant statements about Iraq, Iraqis and Islam I have left in …
Something ate my last comment.
I wonder if it tasted good.
When Bush toppled Saddam, he created a power vacuum that our troops partially fill. Whether they leave now or five years from now, there’s going to be a total power vacuum that the Shiite will fill with possible help from Iran. And it’s not going to be pretty for the Iraqi Sunnis, who are making it harder on themselves with every bomb their insurgents detonate. I feel very sorry for them. Payback’s a bitch.
The alternative is to keep our troops there as a partially effective moderating element, while they and our treasury do a slow bleed. Yes, the “slow bleed” is the heart of Bush’s strategy. He has our troops in exactly the war of attrition that his father carefully avoided: “Had we gone the invasion route [in 1991], the U.S. could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different–and perhaps barren–outcome.”
wmcq – that’s an incredibly racist comment
moose at 53
Here’s one list of U.S. bases I just found.
U.S. military bases
According to some postings on the web, some claim an admitted figure of 737. Others declare there are actually 1000 as many countries don’t want it known they are involved.
From what I read about the situation in Okinawa, the locals would be damn glad to see all military personnel gone. But hey, we may not need a draft or other measures if our leaders can just keep recycling the injured back to Baghdad.on.the.Styx …
our biggest port other than here is in dubai, where halliburton just located.
chomp..chomp..chomp..
yummy, Morris Sheppard!
coulda been a certain dinosaur ya know.
wmcq– have you studied anything beyond the MSM talking points? you must know that this is the cradle of CIVILIZATION, eh?
TRex @
16
I once sang “Mon Coeur S’Ouvre A Ta Voix” for contest…and there’s always Wiki…
No offense, the image up top was kind of bugging me, so I did a remix that I find a little less disjointed:
flusteredcluckup
angie @ 66
So it was you!
Picking up a link from *ilbo on the previous thread:
Criticisms of Jimmy Carter and Pacifica Forum have tragic parallels
wmcq – please edit your comment … I will not have the Iraqi people called cannibals here.
Phoenix Woman,
I just wanted you to know that, although I save posts this late in the day to read in full even later, usually the next day, I do appreciate your posts enormously. So it’s been hard to thank you as much as I’ve been wanting to.
The background and perspective you offer are invaluable. Thank You !
oh look, a liar bird !
montag @ 55
It’s a measure of Bush’s and his advisors’ pigheadedness (or greed — so long as they stay, they control much if not most of Iraq’s oil proceeds, as noted above) that when the Baker-Hamilton Report was offered up to them as a relatively graceful, face-saving escape route, Bush angrily denounced it as a “flaming turd”.
There was a novel written some years ago — a novel whose name escapes me; I think it was something by Irving Wallace or some other similar author — about a very immature man in his mid-fifties, the son and heir of an immensely powerful tycoon, who went on a psychotic rampage that nearly took down the country. Damned if it wasn’t prophetic.
I find it amusing that Hillary is demanding that Bush doesn’t leave the Iraq mess for her to clean up. What did you think Senator when you were giving this president a blank check to invade Iraq, that he would have it all conveniently disposed of before you became prez? What a hoot. Except for the fact there are American soldiers dying in Iraq almost every day.
bdu @ 68
Oooh, ooooh! Mind if I appropriate that image? (I bow to your superior Photoshop skills!)
Gen. Peter Pace instills confidence.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/…..;cset=true
dmac @
65
our biggest port other than here is in dubai, where halliburton just located.
What is the rationale for moving a company’s headquarters so close to a potential regional conflagration?
Siun and all- please F5 (reload) not refresh. The comment has been removed.
Adie @ 72
Addie — thanks. I’m trying to work hard to meet the very high standards set by Jane and Christy (the blogging demon!) and TRex (waves to TRex!) and Pach and Siun and the rest. I just hope that I don’t embarrass myself too much in their company.
Morris Sheppard @ 70
perhaps :)
Though I can only hope to see again your lovely and artistic work in a museum, you are here for me to “talk to” and that’s perfect. :O
(I do own a Gustav Stickley Morris chair that I am very fond of though– bought it at a “tag sale”)
It wasn’t just the Bush administration that got us into this Iraq mess.
Phoenix Woman @ 77
Of course you can use it, that’s what it’s there for. This struck me as something that might be needed again, hence spending the 15 mins or so to make it a little better. ;0)
Oh, yea, Phoenix Woman ;-)
I’ll trump your (wingnut) consultant (Kohlmann) with James Fearon from CFR, and you already mentioned Gen. Zinni
Wish to hell I could remember where I came across an article recently from Isr*el about how public confidence in their political class and political institutions is now at an all-time low.
The author was detailing the effects of the numerous public corruption and criminal investigations and trials underway in Isr*el right now. It was a much longer list than I remember having heard about before. The public, according to this article, has been hit pretty hard with all this stuff, following on the heels of the disastrous recent war in Lebanon.
The author also noted the increased interest in two new political figures on the horizon, both of whom are sort of populist demagogues — and who unfortunately also seem to be right-wing once you scratch the veneer a bit. And no, I don’t remember their names. Typical of me.
Does anyone remember reading an article like this? It wouldn’t surprise me if I found the link in a comment here at the Lake…
Oh, btw, that’s the bird’s original beak, too. I google imaged for chicken to grab a beak, and spotted your original chicken!
Phoenix Woman @ 75
Just want to make a brief remark about the “control of the oil in Iraq” angle. I’ve been convinced since pretty early on in the occupation that the Bushies wanted control, not to get the oil ONTO the market — but just the opposite — to keep the oil OFF the market.
Exxon/Mobil and their allies like it much better that way.
Phoenix Woman @ 73
Didn’t know that Irving Wallace wrote the Merck IV Manual. :)
But, yeah, it’s hard to stop rampages (and Iraq is precisely that, whatever gravy the administration pours on it to hide its true character).
One day we’re gonna wake up to what’s been going on for the last sixty years, and that the Bushies are simply the culmination of decades of propaganda and manipulation.
Bush is going to cut and run once the pictures of Iraq start really coming out after he leaves office.
By the way … Kohlmann is apparently the “terrorism” expert for National Review …
clearly a great source of wisdom, eh?
montag @ 89
Let’s see, sixty years. That would have this grand mess beginning in 1947.
Yep. Sounds about right. Although maybe it was started in 1946 or even late 1945 already. When did Operation Paperclip get its start?
Actually I think that Bush whose access to intelligence is after all unique, knows how bad things are. It is just in the last year it has begun to sink in. And I am sure that he had received such a negative estimate before his invasion. But he chose to brush it aside.
And so he grasps at straws.
Instead of being linked with Churchill, his legacy will be to be linked with Chamberlain. Author of a policy which lead to a major multinational disaster.
Perhaps it is that he must face the fact that his father was correct in cautioning him.
angie @
82
You are so sweet. Thank you.
Three things need to happen soon to minimize violence.
1) A tactical retreat to the Murtha line
2) A major strategic review …including the Phase 2 report from the Senate.
3) A virtual summit including all interested parties to hash this thing out.
These three things will help us pass the time while we wait for all the lame ducks to step off.
Siun @ 91
He is, eh? Which is why it’s so odd that he’s so very anti-Bush in his commentary. Go read it — aside from what he says about the US’ alleged need to stay, it could have been written by any one of us. He doesn’t sound at all like a typical wingnut.
It is interesting that others are having posting problems. I do believe FDL has a quirky glitch.
And what is up with the white space between comments?
Phoenix Woman @ 81
Silly PW. This is a brilliant post and you’ve been doing consistently brilliant work, here and at your own group blog, which I encourage everyone to check out.
I wonder…
Did Cheney arrange his worldwide trip around the Halliburton move to Dubai?
d
Mrs. K8 @ 90
Operation Paperclip. 1945. Revival of HUAC. 1938. Election of Tailgunner Joe McCarthy. 1946. Signing of the National Reorganization Act. 1946. Signing of the National Security Act. 1947. Announcement of the Truman Doctrine. 1947.
stephen parrish
Quote This Comment
their main money makin’ deals are in new oil drilling, that’s where the action is…..as hard as it is for people to believe, all of their other endoevers are second……to that…….my dad used t explain it to me as, how much do you want to pay an executive for bein’ on a plane? that’s where there action is right now……..the iraqi contracts are secondary to the contracts they hold on new oil drilling. that’s where there money is right now.
and since i’ve had a few beers, am reposting last things=======ya’all just humor me ok????????????????
i do not believe in epu posting, but i am going to
me at the last thread
ok kiddo :
I want a homeland for the Palestinians as was rightly done in 1948 for the people of Israel. It’s fair and right
dmac :
in a way i hate to pass this on-but a family member put it all into perspective for me years and years ago—-isn’t going to happen……they have no resources—no natural resources and no money and no strategic spots we need……..the only way it will happen is to end war…….and you see how that has changed the world……..but i still believe that the end war in the world will win…..and that’s what i said, even though i knew they were probably predicting what would come in the future…….they’ll get it when people get tired of fighting…….and it makes me as sick now as when i heard the truth from my family member……..i was young then, and it broke my heart when they said it, and they knew it would, but told it to me as a hard truth i needed to learn, they have no resources, so it won’t end, until someone else ends it…….and the someone else (israel) doesn’t want to end it. i will keep hoping, just as i did back then, that it will end.
added me:
this all boils down to israel, whether people want to talk about it or not………bush doesn’t need to go to war with iran, he’ll use the un…..because we went around them before, they’ll be ready to kowtow to us to avoid another mayhem…….get with it people, it’s about world markets, and other countries don’t want it to happen this time, so they’ll enter in…….to castrate iran without a gun being fired……..the new people in power at the un were backed by US……yes us, we………..if we go in, it’s backed, you can bet on it……putin’s only waitin’ on what his cut will be…….for which way he turns………..it’s all about who owns the contracts, and we don’t…..france, germany, britain, russia do…….and those brokers inbetween, which are us….it’s about commerce, and we want a bigger cut……meanwhile, nukes, bush doesn’t want anyone to be a
‘cell’ for terrorists, that is our marker…….oil, commerce and training grounds for opposition, government ‘cells’……that’s the divvy up pile……i hope this made sense, is hard to break down in a little post.
I didn’t click through the links, PW, but I think Cheney/Bush “oil binness” buddies in Saudia Arabia are holding their feet to the fire, probably throwing a downright knipshin fit about their Sunni brethren being killed by the Shia majority in Iraq.
Saudia Arabi, in my opinion, insist America stay in Iraq to protect the Sunnis. And the Saudis seem to have a lot of sway with Bush/Cheney Co.
Organic George @ 96
And I thought it was me that had the quirky glitch. Oh, that’s another type of quirky glitch.
(I do own a Gustav Stickley Morris chair that I am very fond of though– bought it at a “tag sale”)
Can I go shopping with you?
:-)
Organic George @ 95
Maybe its a new Word Press “feature”.
VG … I added a little mod note and released it.
Mrs. k8 – you might be interested in the news which hit Israeli papers this week about how Olmert had planned the attack on Lebanon and was just waiting for an appropriate provocation … sorta like W and Iran I fear:
http://news.independent.co.uk/…..341366.ece
Olmert ‘planned Lebanon war before soldiers’ kidnap’
By Donald Macintyre in Jerusalem
Published: 09 March 2007
Ehud Olmert’s decision to go to war in Lebanon in response to abductions of soldiers was taken as early as March 2006, according to a leak of his evidence to the commission investigating the war.
The report means that the military strategy was decided more than three months before it was triggered by Hizbollah’s abductions of two soldiers on Israel’s northern border in July. Israeli officials said this was broadly in line with what the Prime Minister has already told the cabinet.
Thanks to bdu, the graphic has been improved: Hit Ctrl-F5!
Phoenix Woman @
74
Great job, Phoenix Woman. Have you ever noticed that when Bush is angry about something, he uses the scatological rhetoric of a elementary school bully?
OT I recorded Jane Hamesher on Stephanie Miller Show last Thursday if anyone wants the mp3. I tried to email to you, Siun; but, of course, “at firedoglake com” couldn’t accept it. LOL You would have been inundated with spam and killed the servers.
Phoenix Woman, your posts are extraordinary! Thanks!
Phoenix Woman – he is … writes regularly for NRO. I did read the article … while he is right that the situation is complex, his absurd focus on Al Qaeda in Iraq and portrayal of Sunnis and Shia is kool aid.
All it’s going to take is one measly little ole atom bomb or missle in the Middle East to start the big war. Then no one will have to worry about where the money will come from to send our kids to college.
montag @ 99
Thank you!
Somebody here needs to have all this at their fingertips, ready to roll out at a moment’s notice. I’m glad it’s you, ’cause my brain certainly can’t do that sort of thing very well.
I tend to see lots of things which are not usually connected as, in fact, linked, so –
Isn’t it interesting that American cinema starts to get a hard edge of cynicism and an air of disgust with American superficiality and materialism during just these immediate post-war years? [Which then soon picks up lots of steam as time goes on.] I have to think the public picked up something in the age which was heartbreaking to veterans and their families — the realization that the ideals maintained in WWII propaganda was certainly not the whole story, not by a long shot.
Mrs. K8 @ 102
sure, i’d love it. my Mom always says I have a good eye.
(though they are failing me now! what is it with age, anyway?)
we’ll have to bring the loupe and more…
Partition under US and Muslim countries’s supervision is the most desireable solution. Partition is also the only solution.
karen jacobs @ 107
karen- that’s a great idea. When everyone catches their breath after trial, I hope that a place on the page can be put up to give links to mp3s of Jane and Christy’s interviews. I mean it would be a great thing to do.
Speaking of old books and times repeating themselves:
During a severe downturn in the Warren G. Harding Administration (the “normalcy” guy) he is reported to have said that he knows there is a book out their on ecenomics that probably has the answer to the countries problems…”but I probably wouldn’t read it anyway.”
A story told by one of my college perfessers.
I wonder. Is it all hopelessly out of control already? Thanks to George and a few others.
I want to go shopping with angie and Mrs.K8! I have a loupe.
Krog … I assume you are Iraqi and represent the interests and views of the Iraqi people when you say that?
Karen Jacobs – thanks, give it another try with the email.
Krog @ 112
ONLY, if that’s what they want and THEY do it themselves. Imposed ANYTHING ain’t gonna work.
Valley Girl @ 113
You mean the white space between comments hasn’t been there for the last umpteen weeks? It looks fine to me, the way it alwys does (except when the margins get busted).
I’ve told my Senators (more than once) not to attack Iran. I get form letters back, so I don’t know if anyone in their offices actually reads the mail. I’m mad at the Dems in Congress because they seem to have the backbone of cooked macaroni, without the saving grace of the cheese sauce. Far too many of them seem to have no source of information that isn’t filtered through GOoPers and distorted out of all recognition – twisted or turned inside out or upside down. How do we get them to reconnect with reality?
I’m also interested in why Krog thinks that the US has *any* right to say *anything* about Iraq.
Krog @ 112
whaaat are you talking about?
People that have lived, married, and breathed the same air is up for partition yet again?
Nobody has the right to do this, least of all, the US and their “coalition”.
Re: Halliburton’s relocation:
On one hand, since Halliburton was at one time primarily an oil drilling and transportation services firm, the move makes sense. That’s where the oil business is.
On the other hand, as a prime Gov’t contractor, it is outrageous.
A law needs to passed, and I mean needs, to limit government contracts, especially in supplying the Armed Forces, to companies organized, headquartered and paying taxes in the U.S. Also, to slow, if not stop, corporations from making profits from American business and consumers and then siphoning off those profits to offshore entities to avoid paying taxes, any corporation which has such entities should be subject to a gross receipts tax from all American sales, kind of like the business tax I pay here in LA. It could be structured to roughly equate the income tax that would have been paid on the imputed profits had they been reported and any income tax they do pay could be used as a credit towards that tax.
The corporations would not like it, but I could care less.
angie @ 112
LOL!!!
You bring the LOUPE (was it the Lord Wimsey Dorothy Sayers character who used one of these? or some other early 20th c. crime novel character I’m thinking of? Yikes, somebody bring SOMETHING for the failing memory!) — and I’ll bring the cantaLOUPE for a post-shopping energy snack.
And I’m pretty damned good at snapping up silk dresses and leather and suede coats/bags at thrift shops. We’d make a great team!
Valley Girl @ 117
‘Iz best in West.’
Siun @ 118
quack!
Yeah, markfromIreland and myself got into a little debate over the partitioning thing. I dunno. The current boundaries of Iraq are arbritary. Paul Newman is older than Iraq. I’m not nearly smart enough to figure it out, and my IQ is considerably higher than room temperature–unlike the deflated codpiece, Forrest Gumping his way toward ?
Phoenix Woman @
81
OMG NO! You never disappoint! Don’t even think in those terms. This wonderful blog lives and breathes by letting everyone speak as they are wont to do. Yes, the standards are high, but if you are invited to post, have full faith those ‘in charge’ trust your judgement.
I value your perspective immensely. I value the variety of offerings on this wonderful site also, even some of the musical stuff I’m just too stuck in my personal classical rut to appreciate to the fullest, heh.
But then, we spent 2 eve’s ago enjoying Bruckner symphony that I can’t pretend to understand the way my [grown] “kids” do, & that would have driven others nuts even to sit thru – yet it was incredibly lovely and relaxing for us.
It just takes all of us. And you’re one of my favorites to read, and to make me think. Thanks! ;->
angie @
57
And after the discourse, the oral sex (the oral sex, the oral sex!).
The Bush administration rules by divine right. These guys have taken ‘manifest destiny’ to a new level.
Siun:
Your assumption is incorrect.
It doesn’t make any difference anyway.
Of course, if your alternative is to see the Shiites and Sunnis slaughter each other to an unimaginable degree, then you are free to make any assumptions you like.
Isn’t it clear that the Iraqis have no solution themselves? Bush removed a leader, Saddam Hussein, who though despicable nevertheless kept a lid on this cauldron that the British designed almost 100 years ago.
Now that the lid is off, we see the result.
Partition is the only alternative that has a chance of future, greater bloodbaths. Do you really think otherwise?
Please, if you have thoughts, contribute them. But no more nationalistic nonsense, thank you.
Siun @ 122
Not to defend Krog… but
The Pottery Barn Rule?
Can’t Karen Hughes sort all this out? She is the “people-get-along” expert in this malAdministration, ain’t she? Or is she the “people-misunderstand-us” expert?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 132
As well they should, since W talks directly to God.
What do you mean we, Kemo Sabe’ ???
Don’t you just love these guys who are so happy about condemning other people to die in combat!!
The only kind of shopping that I really enjoy is picking through the beautiful offcasts of a world that is history.
I cringe in department stores and boutiques.
I like old, worn historical and meaningful and beautiful.
and then there is the future.
The U.S. has the ‘right’ to do what it wants. Based upon the idea and fact that we are the most heavily nuclear armed country in the world. And that’s that.
I used siun at firedoglake_com. should I try that again now?
Anybody see McClellan take Sith Cheney to the woodshed on Blitzer today?
This war is the greatest foreign policy blunder in American history for all the reasons listed in the post and many more.
There will be no good outcomes.
Since there are no good options what MUST be considered is something that the whole neocon dream of world domination ignored.
What was ignored in that fantasy was what happens to the United States.
Warfare, as we now practice it, is incredibly expensive. Corrected for inflation we’ve now spent as much money on 4 years in Iraq as we spent on 8 years in Vietnam and that’s with smaller numbers of combat troops. We are currently borrowing vast sums to maintain military operations from foreigners. We have no choice but to honor that debt. We must pay it back. It should be recognized that every day we remain in Iraq makes us weaker.
Seriously damaging home base (U.S.) is not acceptable.
Our only option left is to stop the bleeding at home. By bleeding I mean that (among many other things) the financial burden and neglect of a deteriorating infrastructure, infrastructure in it’s broadest sense.
Allow the hemmorhage to continue unabated and we risk becoming a sad sack second rate power. By second rate power I’m not talking about military power but power in the broadest sense.
curve666 @ 98
This reminds me to ask if it was ever confirmed that the official WH limosine spotted moving slowly on the street in front of the Prettyman Courthouse around the time Libby & his team met the press outside was Cheney’s?
Oilfieldguy @ 134
uh. no. (i’m hoping you’re being sarcastic?).
there is nothing we could do that would give us the moral authority to remove the right of self determination from where it belongs – with the people of iraq.
the combination of american arrogance and ignorance has caused enough harm. we need to stop pretending we have all the answers and start listening to the wishes and wisdom of others. imo.
Siun @ 109
Oh, exactly. He of all people should know that if there’s one thing that Iraqi Shia and Sunni can agree on — besides a hatred of US presence and Ahmad Chalabi — it’s the near-universal disdain for Al-Qaeda in Iraq. Even their fellow Sunnis (mostly former Ba’athists) can’t stand them.
Krog @ 133
So you are saying we are The Decider?
I think I’ve seen that movie, and didn’t like it.
Isn’t it hypocritical for some to claim that they have more right to say what happens in Iraq than others?
Again, partition is the only rational solution to the present problem. The US and Muslim countries are the only forces able to effect such an outcome.
Hi OFG!
am having a tough time charcterizing this guy as a wingnut – KO has him on all the time and I don’t think it’s for entertainment purposes-
I really don’t understand his jibberish in the interview above about al-Quaida – but I’ve actually heard Michael Scheuer recommend his book on same -
further -
he was the lst I ever heard on teevee talk about the futility of the constant taking and re taking of villages and provinces in Iraq
when the WH attempted the Iranians are killing our soldiers meme – I heard this guy straight up call out the Saudis
he also is on the record as to the dangers we face with continued neglect of Afghanistan and Pakistan and he mentions the past and future dangers of ISI (Pakistan Intel. Agency) every chance he gets
so I will keep an open mind (not like I haven’t been fooled in the past) but I just don’t see this guy as a kool aid guzzler
oh people, please don’t get lost in the triviality of it all. the shiny objects………it is about world commerce, don’t forget that…..that’s what’s on the table, where we make money,that’s where we go, all aspects of that and weak countries that could leave their grounds open, an open training ground for people who oppose us, in a real sense, training grounds, military, for real….that’s what it’s all about. pay attention to the broader view, even though it hurts, follow the money…….
Oilfieldguy @ 140
Do you mean Max Cleland? If so, C&L has this video.
Valley Girl @ 117
Yes, please do!
I’m very very sorry to say that my turtle shell antique cigarette holder was broken by someone who borrowed it for a costume party, then dropped it on the marble floor at the site of the event. Boo hoo! It would have made a smashing combo look with the loupe!
Of course maybe I’ll run across another one. The first one got snarfed up at a Goodwill store…
BTW, there’s a Goodwill right around the corner from me…then we can come back to my house and go swimming in the pool post shopping spree, eh?
I’m almost thinking about becoming angry about politics. I’ve written the math test for tomorrow and I’m going to the Aunty’s house for the night. So there. ;0)
oh god, now I disagree w/ no less than Phoenix Woman – crap !
Karen – my address is on the about page – media dot firedoglake at gmail dot com reaches me.
Thanks!
Siun @ 105 –
Thank you kindly for the link! You’re right — I am interested.
Krog– perhaps you have some insight wrt Afghanistan?
Cozumel:
I of course said no such thing.
Your use of ad hominem discredits your argument, if you have one.
Partition is the only viable alternative. Why do you think that Iraqis are opposed? Do you have any evidence.
Obviously not!
cbl @ 154
Actually, you’re disagreeing with Siun. ;-) But that’s OK — you can disagree with me, too.
I know what you mean about his not sounding like a typical Kool-Aid guzzler. But as Siun just pointed out, his belief that Al-Qaida is a major player in Iraq is just, well, silly. Al-Qaida is not much more liked than is Ahmad Chalabi in Iraq right now.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 153
good for you. we’ll still be here tomorrow…
sleep tight.
Who’s a homonym?
the day of Iraqis tearing Iraqis to shreds was always inevitable once the bushliar-criminal regime idiots destroyed Hussein’s iron fisted rule. The only question…the ONLY question is WHEN it happens, i.e., the US presence only delays its occurrence – doesn’t stop it, we only defer it.
Iraqis will have to at some point realize that fratricide is not the answer. Whether or not they come to that realization before one of the two, or both groups is/are annihilated remains to be seen. But this is the ONLY scenario before the world. The US is powerless to stop it. The spigot of blood flowing in the streets of Iraq has a long way to go to get full open, let alone be turned off.
.
Krog … the only people who have a right to say what happens in Iraq are Iraqis. Period. Done.
The arguments otherwise are based on arrogant … and yes, racist, attitudes about the Middle East and the rights of people to self-determination – a concept I realize is out of fashion in Pax Americana.
Homonyms are immoral. Gen. Pace said so himself! ;-)
dmac –
You are spot on about “follow the money” in the larger picture. I’ve been convinced of that every since reading “Confessions of an Economic Hit Man.”
And you are right that it hurts. A lot. I couldn’t even finish reading that book, it made me so sick at heart and soul.
I can only think that our hopes can only fully take shape when the poor of this earth and their allies who want both justice and peace, regardless of natural borders, join forces to refuse the game of the overlords.
Angie asks:
>Krog– perhaps you have some insight wrt Afghanistan?
Not much. No one has been able to govern that country. No one. It is a feudal and tribal society. The USSR tried to take it over and left with their tail between their legs.
I don’t think the US pouring in more troops into Afghan. will be useful to anyone of any nationality.
Kohlmann has connections to a bunch of pretty unsavory – and decidedly republican – institutions. Do some googling, then see what you think.
LoudounLib @ 163
no, no: homonymity ACTS are immoral.
Krog @ 159
RE: “ad hominem” — To paraphrase Fezzik from The Princess Bride, I think you’re using that word improperly. (Then again, it makes a handy marker for detecting Rush Limbaugh listeners, since the only way most of them have heard that word is via him.) Could you demonstrate its use, please?
And do you really think the Turks — or the Iraqi Shia or Sunni — will accept a Kurdish state? (Hint: Where are the headwaters of Turkey’s two largest river? In Kurdish Iraq. Think the Turks will let the Kurds control their water supply?)
Krog @ 159
Maybe Iraq has some GOOD ideas about how to change OUR government. Whudaya think? Or France maybe. Huh?
*ilbo @ 126
*ilbo- thanks again for that interesting link. The links that people at FDL provide are my shortcut to learning about so many things. And, now that you’ve made through step one, here’s step two. It took me a while to figure this one out. But, the reply box has tabs- one is LINK. Click on that, and first paste in link, and then a new box opens so you can type in your own text. Easy html.
TeddySanFran @ 167
And only in pairs.
Scarecrow @ 150
Yeah, Max Cleland. I thought for awhile trying to remember his name. Apologies to the war hero. I knew one of the most excellent commenters would come bail me out.
Hi Teddy!
TeddySanFran @ 166
Sounds like shit, to me. :)
TeddySanFran @ 166
TSF I stand corrected ;-)
Krog @ 158
oh boy.
go here:
http://gorillasguides.com/
and read
oh, now you’ve done it. I knew someone would bring up France!
Watch Cheney get a standing ovation and even crack a smile!
Krog @ 134
Didn’t the same thing happen in Yugoslavia after Marshal Tito died? They had been living in repression under a strongman dictatorship, but were not at war with one another. Once the strongman was gone, all hell broke loose and they fell into ethnic cleansing, the like of which we hadn’t seen for years. Eventually we, along with others from the UN, went in and calmed the situation and ultimately we had to partition the country. Isn’t that what happened, more or less?
LoudounLib @
165
No he didn’t. He said sew himself.
angie @ 138
angie –
I’m with you! We haven’t been inside a “mall” in YEARS, and intend to keep it that way.
You should see our house — almost all the furniture and odds-n-ends are straight out of the teens and twenties and thirties (all those things about which my relatives said, “what!?! You want that OLD stuff? Then, take it!!” — to which I said, oh thank you, thank you, thank you).
Morris Sheppard @
35
Damned good point. These are the same “experts” who were wrong on everything leading up to the war – wrong on WMD, wrong on al Qaeda, wrong on the # of troops needed for the occupation, wrong, wrong, wrong. And we’re talking wrong about *big* things, things that even this penguin could see straight. Why should we believe anything they say anymore?
– Badtux the “I was right and they were wrong” Penguin
peanutgallery @ 176
An awful thing to behold, Cheney smiling….
PW, very moving well-written post. Thank you.
dmac, you’re thinking of I Ching tr 11? (earth over heavens: peace) Thought about that myself today.
Thank you all for some deep comments.
My apologies to those attempting serious discussion.
Me, I’m in a stick-poking mood. General Pace always does that to me.
pluege – sectarian violence in Iraq was ignited by American strategies similar to those used in Central America. Check the articles from ‘05 about the El Salvador option, check the interesting hints found in Imperial Life – what was Bernie Kerik doing, etc … Iraq was not a “sectarian” state and the attempts to maintain a nonsectarian culture continue … did you know that large numbers of Sunnis joined the Shia pilgrims last week to walk to Karbala?
The sectarian meme has been cultivated and inflamed by our strategists – and then used as an excuse for continued occupation.
Cozumel @ 169
Actually, we could probably use an intervention.
(waving to Mrs. K8 – left you a little something here)
Ann in AZ @ 177
Umm, yeah, after we sent in the CIA to stir things up a bit….
This has probably been commented on but can’t the Dems grow a spine.
By DAVID ESPO and MATTHEW LEE, Associated Press Writers Mon Mar 12, 7:22 PM ET
WASHINGTON – “Top House Democrats retreated Monday from an attempt to limit
President Bush’s authority for taking military action against
Iran as the leadership concentrated on a looming confrontation with the White House over the
Iraq war. …
Conservative Democrats as well as lawmakers concerned about the possible impact on
Israel had argued for the change in strategy.”
When will people realize that A*PAC is bad for Israel?
peanutgallery @ 176
pass
Balrog @ 181
;-)
TeddySanFran @ 186
I take homonyms very seriously.
And after the homonyms, the oral sex.
ah Montag … thank you.
Krog @ 166
The Afghans did a fine job of “governing that country”, thank you very much before everbody including the USSR and the USA wanted a pipeline through it.
Oilfieldguy @ 143
No! Do tell!
But I did see Bill Maher on Larry King. I never watch his show, but what with the time change, I was looking for what to watch and when I saw that Bill Maher was on, I watched it. Personally, I like Bill Maher. He’s blunt and sometimes outrageous, but I don’t think anyone is more candid and realistic.
Angie … email me sometime, I have a question to ask.
I, for one, have now figured out Krog.
Cozumel:
>Maybe Iraq has some GOOD ideas about how to change OUR government. Whudaya think? Or France maybe. Huh?
Cozumel has grasped my point, even though she or he is unable to understand it.
Many non-Americans have better ideas than many Americans about what the US should do in Iraq.
Glad that we agree about something.
Also, AD HOMINEM is an attack on a person rather than a intelligent response to what the person says.
COZUMEL and SIUN have given several examples of the former. COZUMEL’s above cited response is an example of the latter. My response is one of agreement with the criticism which unwittingly supports my main point.
(snicker)
peanutgallery @ 179
been there live C-Span this morn. w/ my 1st cuppa. Didn’t sprew or drop the cup, but only outta abundance of self-control – can’t promise not to have nightmares tonight. he’s a sick, sickening person!
Oilfieldguy @ 197
Said Scooter to the bear….
Siun @
187
All the more reason for the US to get out now so we can see that Iraqis love on each other.
.
TRex @ 16
He blew Wagner’s mind when, while visiting Wagner in Beyreuth, he sight read at the piano, the entire score of all four operas of Das Nibelungenlied from the handwritten orchestral score.
At the age of 10, he could play all of Beethoven’s piano sonatas from memory.
Even though he famously stormed out of the premiere of Stravinsky’s Le Sacre du Printemps muttering about Stravinsky’s use of the bassoon (too high for Saint Saens), he went back and listened to the ballet a week later, stayed, and proclaimed Stravinsky to be a “genius.”
TeddySanFran @ 185
Use a Big Stick.
Oilfieldguy @ 200
A Biden staffer, crashed and burned LOL
Nite firepups ; )
Scarecrow @ 172
So Mary Cheney isn’t immoral, then? ;-)
Angie:
>The Afghans did a fine job of “governing that country”, thank you very much before everbody including the USSR and the USA wanted a pipeline through it.
A fine job? Your claim is historically inaccurate.
Afghan has been an arena for murder and opium for a long, long time. It is essentially a lawless area, and this is hardly a “fine job”.
You seem to conflate colonialism with anarchy.
Siun @ 32
Thx! All the toobz problems are mine. All the political ones are ours.
Partitioning Iraq ?
three things -
Juan Cole
Juan Cole
via Juan Cole
folks like Biden get away with this b/c “it’s sound sensible” and people are hungry for a solution
Partitioning Iraq brings the Arab world down hard on Chimpney – as it is perceived as weakening an Arab state, and strengthening Israel -
ET- I left you a heartfelt comment at the end of the last thread here.
Please read, please?
PW – Mary Cheney gets “grandfathered” in. Everyone else can fend for themselves!
cal @ 144
And you haven’t even mentioned that our armed forces are basically broken and will be even more broken if we try to start a war with Iran. That’s when they start sinking our ships, and we are facing WWIII without the means (in terms of boots on the ground and equipment) to fight. Then we are no longer the super power that we have been throughout all of our lifetimes. Heckofa job, Georgie!
Valley Girl @ 211
I did – {{{{VG}}}} and {{{{fdl mods}}}}
Teddy:
I, for one, have now figured out Krog.
I find this to be the most incisive response to my postings, to date.
Ann in AZ @ 195
Scarecrow saved my faux pas.
Do you mean Max Cleland? If so, C&L has this video.
V.G. @172 Ok, thanks a bunch. The author I’ve known for years. Notice he is a former member of the Forum. The issue dominated the Holidays this year. Sad enough, theyr’e not the best time of the year for me. Recently a Temple was trashed by trash who destroyed two sacred Torahs. The beat goes on.
Suzanne @ 187
Oh my. Oh my goodness.
Suzanne, thank you SO much. I needed that!
They’re so very gorgeous, and I really have missed them very very much.
Thank you for your kindness!
BTW — your self-description on your blog is a hoot and a half! Love your humor.
And your pupster is just the CUTEST doggie. Well, the cutest right after my dear 10 year old Tandy. You understand how that works, right?
Oh, btw … Chalabi is sitting in the Green Zone deciding who gets reconstruction funding … just in case you’d like to know what Ahmed is doing these days.
Yes, ma’am, Mrs. K8, I do understand. Glad I finally caught up with you to give you that.
Siun @ 214
Umm, I think Ahmed is doing what he’s always done… a bit of siphoning.
cbl @ 208
Plus, the Shia and Sunni don’t want partition — it’s all or nothing. And neither Shia nor Sunni will stand for letting the Kurds have their own state — and the Turks sure as hell won’t, not when most of their water supply comes from what would be the proposed Kurdistan.
Mrs. K8 @ 181
I am so focused now on the new world, but my real joy and comfort comes from my family, friends, and the endeavor to never letting all of our pasts and treasures ( no matter how small) be left behind.
I come from indomitable folks and that’s something.
ET- thanks. You can always email me if you have further comments. I think you have my addy, no?
Siun @ 220
one for you, uh, let’s see, five for me; one for him, three for me….
Valley Girl @ 225
yep
mrs. k8@ 166 i think
And you are right that it hurts. A lot. I couldn’t even finish reading that book, it made me so sick at heart and soul.
I can only think that our hopes can only fully take shape when the poor of this earth and their allies who want both justice and peace, regardless of natural borders, join forces to refuse the game of the overlords.
that’s the only way it’s gonna happen
Krog…
I’m thinking about selling my house but I don’t know. Please tell me what to do
ROFL
OK, that’s it…
Later
dmac @
52
Oh, I like that. Thanks!
Suzanne @ 219
I know that’s my fault (the difficulty in catching up with me), as today’s the first I’ve been able to post here in a while.
Thank you for your patience, and the gorgeousity of those wondrous flowers. I look at them and I remember hope.
Siun @ 216
If Chalabi’s head doesn’t end up on a pike outside of one of Saddam’s old palaces I’ll be very surprised. He’d better hope he has advance warning of any attacks on Iran, or he’s not getting out alive.
Krog @ 208
You, sir/madame, are bereft of knowledge.
You missed a course or three.
bye.
Obviously, General Pace is a self-loathing, in the closet homosexual. The movie “American Beauty” explored this issue quite effectively. Such odd comments about his fellow military brothers and sisters…
Chalabi redux again:
“Ahmad Chalabi, for example, the political chameleon and advocate for the war, has re-emerged as an intermediary between Baghdad residents and the Iraqi and American security forces. At a freshly renovated compound in the Green Zone, Mr. Chalabi now regularly meets with leaders from all over Baghdad as they compete for roles in managing the expected infusion of projects and jobs. At a recent gathering, representatives from 15 neighborhoods in eastern Baghdad stood one after another to explain why they should be chosen to lead.”
NYT on rebuilding
By the way Phoenix Woman, you do outstanding posts here. Really top-notch stuff. This Gordian Knot that is Iraq is a very tough topic, with a whole bunch of edges and angles. Good stuff.
Now about the Sherrif of Maricopa County…
Angie … agreed
Twas not a problem at all, Mrs. K8. You greeted me so warmly the first time I delurked and posted a comment here many moons ago – you made me feel welcome. It was the least I could do to brighten up your day.
Wow. Get a load of EZ Writer’s post at DK:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..2179/59305
EZ Writer gets access to WashPo stories shortly before they are published. It’s going to be an interesting day tomorrow.
*ilbo @ 213
*ilbo- Carter spoke recently at my U. Unfortunately I had to teach at the time. If a link comes up, I will try to post it. I did however happen to be in the faculty audience when Carter spoke to faculty a while back. By chance it was the morning after Bushco. launched the Iraq invasion. Carter’s comments were candid. No punches pulled. The story of how he turned around the failing negotiations at Camp David is very interesting- not sure I have read it- heard it from a colleague who met with him to discuss environmental issues.
bonkers @ 234
My sister-in-law wrote glowingly about Gen. Pace in her Christmas letter. Seems her husband went to Rutgers with him.
I am so focused now on the new world, but my real joy and comfort comes from my family, friends, and the endeavor to never letting all of our pasts and treasures ( no matter how small) be left behind.
angie –
I am like you, too, in this respect. Hope you don’t (like me) have to put up with other family members who don’t get it. My one sister, for example, is a “thrower-outer” and considers my keeping our “pasts and treasures (no matter how small)” (good way to put it!) to define me instead as a “pack rat.”
BTW — am curious — what do you define as the “new world”? I’m reaching a stage in life when I’m getting more of a feeling that “there’s nothing new under the sun.”
Mrs. K8 @ 167
But Mrs. K8, wouldn’t that be called–Armageddan?
Oilfieldguy @ 217
Thanks, and nice to see you here. Haven’t you been gone for awhile?
TRex @
16
I have the Dover edition of the complete works of Rameau for the harpsichord. It’s not mentioned in the Dover edition, but Saint-Saens did the editing. It’s a very poor edition for use on the harpsichord because the majority of the (rather complex) ornaments are left out. Camille decided that all those frilly ornaments sounded silly on the piano.
Ann in AZ,
In and out. Right now I’m in Grayson, KY. Will be driving by Christy Hardin Smith’s house tomorrow. Can’t stop for a visit, though. After I deliver in PA I will call and maybe we can have dinner. She doesn’t know I’m in the area yet, unless she is up late reading this.
fresh shiny bright TRex upstairs
Mrs. K8 @ 242
The new world as I see it is a world of destruction and misery and one that can’t touch us on the teevee. Unless and until we face the facts, this is the new world order. Life and death will happen (slower but still inexorably here in the West because of disease that is untreated and undiagnosed and inevitable) but it will continue fast and furious in the East because of our might and our munitions and our hatred.
I wish I could go on a weekend jaunt with all of you and I hope to see you at yearlykos. Meanwhile, I’ll try to work for peace and justice, endlessly.
mrs k8 @ 166
You are spot on about “follow the money” in the larger picture. I’ve been convinced of that every since reading “Confessions of an Economic Hit Man.”
And you are right that it hurts. A lot. I couldn’t even finish reading that book, it made me so sick at heart and soul.
I can only think that our hopes can only fully take shape when the poor of this earth and their allies who want both justice and peace, regardless of natural borders, join forces to refuse the game of the overlords.
oh, i just love your soul
FYI (from Wiki):
An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: “argument to the person”, “argument against the man”) consists of replying to an argument by attacking or appealing to the person making the argument, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument. It is most commonly used to refer specifically to the ad hominem abusive, or argumentum ad personam, which consists of criticizing or personally attacking an argument’s proponent in an attempt to discredit that argument.
Rob Zuber @ 235
Oh. My. God.
This is probably EPU’d but everyone, check this out!
Bush wanted to fire ALL 93 US ATTORNEYS.
Holy CRAP.
Oilfieldguy @ 246
Well, have a great trip!
whenever withdrawal of american troops is mentioned – wingers scream a bloodbath will occur – it seems to me we have a bloodbath NOW!
Siun:
What is the appropriate honorific for someone who ties somebody up and drills a bunch of holes in them and then cuts off their head all because the poor soul was named Omar? Is there a different honorific for car and truck bombers?
If I said crocodiles instead, would you stare at the moon instead of my finger?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 56
Beautifully written. My thoughts exactly!
Ann in AZ –
Armageddon? I can only assume you mean that the warmongers are in fact working for the spirit of antichrist, which would simply mean the antithesis of love.
In that case, I won’t bow down to worship that monster. At least I will always pray for the strength not to do so. I’ve never loved my survival so much that I’ve felt tempted to sell my soul. In fact, I conciously avoided all those suitors who tried to impress me with all their material “toys” and wanted to fly me off to Aruba or Bermuda for the weekend, and opted instead for a simple guy with a good heart, who, like me, entered our marriage with very few earthly possessions.
Still, it’s not been like the REAL poverty endured by the people Franz Fanon called The Wretched of the Earth. Even though I don’t know from experience what that life is really like, I like to hope that my heart’s allegiance would be to them, those Christ called “the least of his brethren” and turned against the exploiters and greedheads lovers of violence.
BTW — do you mind if I ask generally speaking where in AZ you live? I’m in the greater Phoenix metropolitan area. Mr. K8 and I had the great pleasure of meeting katymine at a local PDA/DFA meet-up. I hope I get to meet more FirePups like you someday!
oh btw – anyone take notice of the gassing of the people at the peace rally in tacoma wash? police used rubber bullets and teargas on the mostly young crowd – geez what a country……….
dmac @ 249
oh, i just love your soul
As my soul, in turn, loves yours.
What a wonderful thing to be able to nurture each other at Lakeside, no?
angie –
I wish I could see you and everyone at yearly kos, but we haven’t the money for it.
Perhaps there will be other events at other times when things will work out. Or maybe you’ll be travelling through AZ sometime? Do you mind my asking what general part of the country you’re in?
also overlooked in controlling iraq is its water supply – a certain country in the middle east wants access to iraq’s water supply…………….
Mrs. K8 @
259
I’m in NH right now.
Phoenix Woman @ 160
Last number I saw was about 2,000 al qaeda in Iraq. When they are deemed to have served their purpose the Sunnis will kill every last one of them. Bet on it.
angie @ 261
Good to know.
Every once in a blue moon Mr. K8 has to travel for work. His boss is such a nice guy he usually offers to pay for me to go along too. Last year we had the chance to go back home to the Delaware Valley (and took some vacation days to make it a real treat visiting all the folks and also going down the shore).
The year before that it was a trip to Plymouth Mass, where I got a chance to see the old boyfriend, the one I stupidly had a crush on when I first met Mr. K8 — and it was my dear husband’s idea that we should all meet up! Great fun. [I always knew they would like each other if they ever met…]
Point simply being this — I never know in advance if we’ll be travelling, or where. But now that I have a home on the internet here at the Lake, I will surely find out if there are any FirePups living nearby wherever we travel!
I still look forward to meeting you and lots of other FirePups even if we have to miss yKos this year.
“It’s also a particularly brutal proof of Einstein’s famous truism that the problems that exist in the world today cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them.” Especially wiith this administration or great thinkers in the Beltway. I think this is what Mrs.K8 at 49 was saying. We need to think outside the boxes that the media and the politicians put us in. We face two inconvenient truths. With a 500 billion debt for the fiasco in Iraq we are facing economic and environmental tragedy. And, facing the inevitable environmental tragedy we should be spending this money and more for the benefit of the planet. The inihilation of cultures and the lives of good people for the sake of neocon plunder only advances the cause of our demise by the continued use of fossil fuels. Do we continue to fund a stay the course none strategy so maybe Bush/Cheney can find a way to save face-(we don’t owe them that)-or to fund a war for environmental sanity that we’ll all hhave to fight together? We need to think in newer, grander stategies for world peace and it shouldn’t come through global death.
The US needs to admit we did wrong to Iraq and then we need to make amends to Iraq. Big time on both counts. It would be a start.
Nobody, including the insurgents, know what’s going to happen.
JUST GET OUT!
Phoenix Woman @ 223
On partitioning. What do you do about Baghdad?
Bush’s War
Evan Kohlmann is, unlike the Bush felons, at least, trying to imagine alternate scenarios in order to come up with something like a new strategy. not so sure what it means when he affirms the prevailing idiocy but it sounds to me that at least he’s thinking about it.
On its face, it seems that the only hope (as the ISG reported) is for Iraq’s immediate neighbors to attempt to promote political, economic, humanitarian stability to the situation b/c in the end they will have the most to lose if Iraq metastasizes.
but, of course, that requires a US withdrawl in some form or another.
fluserted cluck, cluster f*ck
I really don’t understand his jibberish in the interview above about al-Quaida
It’s not really gibberish, but his analysis falls short.
It’s true that Al Qaeda represents only five to ten percent of the insurgency, and probably near the low end of that. It’s also true that they have no rooted constituency there, even among the Sunni.
His referents get a little confusing here:
But the idea is, the Sunni’s vulnerability to al-Maliki’s death squads is the only reason they’ve turned to AQ’s extra muscle for protection. So we need to increase their sense of security. The way to do that, he’s saying, is to make examples of some of the ethnic cleansers on the Shi’a side: to take on elements of the Mahdi Army.
It’s not nonsensical. But Kohlmann’s desired end state is one in which the Sunni purge themselves voluntarily of the foreign element, before we leave. And what he misses is that if it’s an argument at all – if there’s any chance that AQ will get a permanent toehold in Anbar province, which will threaten the homeland once we’ve acknowledged our loss and gone – then it’s an even stronger argument for getting out fast.
Because the longer we stay, the stronger the Sunnis’ operational dependence and familiarity with AQ will grow. Stay long enough, and the ties could indeed become sufficiently entrenched that normal nationalist impulses won’t suffice to get UBL’s henchmen sent back to Saudi Arabia with a polite, “Nice having you as guests , but it’s been more than three days, and you’re starting to stink.”