
[FDL is pleased to welcome Stirling Newberry and Joe Conason here today for a discussion of It Can Happen Here. As with all Book Salon discussions, please be polite and keep this thread on topic. Any off topic discussions should be taken to the prior thread. -- CHS]
You do not need Joe Conason, or Norman Solomon or me or anyone to tell you that America has pased through a period of political and constitutional crisis, and that our liberties have been attacked, overtly and covertly, in broad daylight and in public, and in secret places that scarcely have names.
However, if you read Joe Conason's newest book It Can Happen Here you will have a much better idea of the who, the how, and the where, and the why of what has happened. In it he details the triangle of Republican Party apparatus acting through the executive branch, corporatocracy acting through the collusive power of money and deal making, and defended by a haze of theocratic populism. FDR famously declared that fascism's essence was "ownership of government by another power." Joe Conason details how an authoritarian movement has risen to control almost every lever of power in American society, and has worked relentlessly to insulate itself from accountability – legal, public or moral.
It is a sobering book, and a timely one, because America has been very drunk.
The heart of Joe Conason's story is how "corporate money and church muscle" have been used to elevate George Bush from an undistinguished business hack, to governor of the third largest state in the Union, and thence to the Presidency. How this broad movement was combine with Nixonian tactics and ideology, often carried out by the same people who were in the Nixon administration, to create a neo-Nixonian Presidency, but one unrestrained by the political checks and balances of the early 1970's and which overturned or ignored the legal restraints enacted in the wake of Watergate and Vietnam. Joe Conason writes, on page 167:
Living in bitter exile after his forced resignation, Richard Milhous Nixon could hardly have foreseen that someday another generation of Republican politicians would seek to vindicate his authoritarian vision of executive power – or that they would be led by men who had once worked on his staff and camapign. The pedigree of the Bush administration and its most ferrent ideological supporters leads directly back to Nixon's unlamented presidency – as do their pretexts for exapandng presidential power in the direction of dictatorship.
And what was that Nixonian vision?
According to the original Nixonian doctrine refurbished by Republican lawyer and propagandists, America's traditional checks and balances are no longer meaningful or useful. In the name of national security – precisely the same justification employed by Nixon – the president can do whatever he deems necessary, in secret, and neither the Congress nor the judiciary can hold him accountable. Now the theory has a name – "the unitary presidency" …
Crucial to this Nixonian government, is, and was, domestic spying on American citizens for expressly political purposes, more specifically, for expressly partisan political purposes. This domestic spying, when conducted by our enemies during the Cold War on their citizens was seen as proof of the inferiority, and impracticality, of their system of government. We even gave it a name "the police state". Conason details how computer technology, wire tapping and other forms of surveillance. This is not new, peace activists, civil rights leaders, public intellectuals and political figures opposed to the policies of a particular administration, or who ran afoul of the fiefdom of J. Edgar Hoover's FBI, have been monitored for decades. The difference is that the Bush executive sought constitutional justifications. Not that we could spy, or even should spy, but that we must spy, it is our duty to spy. It is American to spy on other Americans for the purpose of advancing a particular partisan agenda.
But more alarming than a single president who used an incident to fatten his powers and over reach, an pattern which is not new to American history, is the danger that the pattern of executive power that Nixon invented and George W. Bush has staked his legacy on, might become the permanent shape of American government. That the "ultimate triumph" might be the approval, by a Bush appointed Supreme Court, of a philosophy of permanent war and presidential aggrandisement. In effect, the Supreme Court would elevate Bush, not just to the Presidency, but as the founding father of an America with a Presidency elevated to supreme power.
In this Joe Conason makes a telling point. He paints a picture of a conservative movement which is led by men of principles, however, that those principles are whatever principles are most convenient to their desires in the present. When out of power, they would reduce the Presidency to a cipher and rule by a legislature elected from rotten boroughs. When in command of the Presidency, they would elevate that office to unaccountable and unquestionable supremacy. When investigating Bill Clinton, nothing, not even his private life, was beyond questioning, under oath – when defending against investigation of Bush, they would place even the most necessary of questions about the conduct of public business out of bounds.
The defense against this downward spiral, towards an America where churches indoctrinate masses of angry and alienated people to an ideology of perpetual conflict, and where this rootless angst is then used to elevate and consecrate, not merely a corporate, but corporatacratic order, and the instrument of this order is a Republican Part which controls the executive by force and fraud, is not to be found anywhere but in our own ability to act. Conason warns that democracy is in danger, that those who have fought in previous struggles to preserve, and elevate, America another step forward towards that "more perfect union" that was promised so long ago and has still not been achieved – have left behind warnings of how usurpation of fundamental rights and liberties is always justified in the name of necessity, and under the sanctifying cloak of patriotism and piety.
Ironically, it was the Works Progess Administration that produced the original play by Sinclair Lewis, and the image, taken from government archives, is of a poster produced by an unknown WPA artist. In FDR's America, the government funded sharp critiques of the possibility of government over reach in time of crisis, rather than funding pseudo-news clips to be inserted without attribution.
While the history of the unitary executive, and the rise of a theocratic-corporatocratic party bent on imposing an authoritarian political culture is essential, the question I'd like to ask Joe Conason is about the future. Having written eloquently and accurate on how this triangle of church, corporation and party both act to thwart the democratic will of the public, and to crudely debase the rule of law when in power, what does he believe that we must do now in order to turn back this wave, which he so rightly labels as barbaric in its practices. How can we strike, to paraphrase Thoreau, at the roots of this poison tree, rather than merely swat at its twigs and branches?



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ESTEN!
Thank you Joe, Stirling and FDL.
This is a shoutout to a little boy – please do feel better.
Hello, Joe! Thlank you ;for a great book!
Welcome Joe and Stirling!
Hello, Stirling, great write-up!
hello joe loved you on al franken’s show – wait wait dont lie to me lol
Joe,
Welcome to the Lake. I have enjoyed reading your work in Salon for quite a while now. I wish I could say that I’ve finished reading your book, but I wanted to read Lewis’ book first before yours, and there has not been enough time. I”m about half way through it. It is EXCELLENT. That said I have a couple of questions for you:
Are you at all familiar Facing History and Ourselves or the story by Ron Jones called The Third Wave? They are both focused on teaching how easy it would be for ordinary Americans to become just like the Nazis that we found so tyrannical. It is one thing to look at how the power structures manipulate their control behind the veil of secrecy, it is another to see how ordinary people can be intoxicated by the allure of discipline, community, “safety” and being “inside” the system. The Third Wave is a chilling story and Facing History is an educational foundation that began because of a need to teach about the Holocaust in a way that would help people understand how it CAN happen here. I’d be interested in knowing if either of these played any part in your thinking or research.
The other question is this, reflecting on the current happenings in D.C. regarding the scandals of Walter Reed, the fired US Attorneys, and the guilty verdict in the Libby case, do you believe that we may actually see some accountability and a turnaround in both Congress and the White House leading to the restoration of Constitutional protections that have been discarded by the current administration? Or are we just seeing kabuki theater being played out and the real power lies in the corporate interests that are running both parties?
Oh and one last thing,
I miss your Friday afternoons on Air America. Will you be joining any other AAR show as a regular contributor?
Hi everyone — this is Joe – and thanks for joining us today. Let me say first of all how much I have admired Jane, Christy, and everyone involved in making FDL such an important locus of information and organization.
Bear with me on the coding please — I’ve only started blogging again this week at joeconason.com so my HTML is a bit rusty!
Welcome!
Hi Joe, what role do you see the propaganda arm of this movement (especially fox news) playing in the future? Fox is finally starting to be discredited, but what else can be done to prevent this authoritarian philosophy spreading in the cloak of “fair and balanced” news?
Joe Conason @ 8
There are buttons…
Welcome to the Lake, Joe! Beer’s in the fridge and pretzels are on the counter.
Joe, one of the things righties like to fling at the left is the old tyranny-of-the-marketplace schtick. Yet much if not most conservative institutions and media aren’t exactly self-supporting — and even those that pay their own way needed heavy subsidies to get started. Would you like to address these entities and the role they’ve played in taking away our freedoms?
Joe Conason @ 8
Welcome Joe. Most of the coding that you might need is already built into the WordPress system. Just highlight what you want bolded, underlined, linked etc. and it will do the work for you.
I think RevDeb has a great first question – what is about the authoritarian politics that Bush represents and uses that makes it so seductive to millions of Americans? And how can we break the hypnotic spell that it has?
Hey Joe, saw you at the DC Politics & Prose book-signing.
Question: your suggestions for dealing with the media? [How many times can one cancel one’s subscription to the WaPo?] Watching even someone good like Bob Schieffer on FTN this morning — not knowing how to smack down crap, follow up with Spector & ask the right questions — no wonder the American public is so uneducated about Iraq et al.
Then reading Isikoff & Wolff’s article in this week’s Newsweek about Libby. As I said, these are supposedly the good guys in comparison to the WSJ, WaPo editorial board, Fox, et al.]
Is there any way to get good, intelligent, media, short of putting you, Al Franken & Keith Olbermann on every channel & in every publication? [I mean, actually, for the rest of the nation. We, of course, get our news here on the blogs. And from Salon & the NY Observer.]
Don’t worry about the HTML, Joe — just use the nice blue buttons up top. If you get in a jam, the mods will assist. (One hint: To avoid excessive quote-within-a-quote scenes — the infamous “ziggurat” — you can use italics (the “i” button, or “i” and “/i” tags) or bolding (”b”) to signify quoted text.)
Joe:
Should we look to roll back these media empires of news, TV & radio to provide more voices? I know the dynamics are changing with the internet but these are still the primary vehicles for most Americans.
Glenn
And I also have to thank Stirling not only for his introduction here but for his thoughtful and incredibly kind essay on my book that appeared on Smirking Chimp earlier this week. I feel slightly embarrassed in citing it but I certainly owe him much gratitude.
Now I am slightly familiar with Facing History because my sister is a teacher who has used that program in high school classes and has worked with the people who created it. I’m not familiar with the Ron Jones story.
I see some signs of accountability in both the Libby and US Attorney matters. Of course we may have to await the outcome of the civil lawsuit for full accountability in Plamegate, but Rep. Waxman seems to be preparing a serious investigation. I hope he will demand the release of Fitzgerald’s early interviews of the President and Vice President, a subject I explored a few weeks ago in the Observer.
And there is also growing pressure for accountability on the US Attorneys matter.
I’m with former Major General Paul Eaton, who said Friday on Bill Maher’s show: forget problematic defunding strategies. It’s time to put into place a “containment strategy” around the chief executive.
It’s Seven Days in May…
(Unfortunately, Maher didn’t see the significance of his remarks and moved on.)
Sterling and Joe, it’s not clear why folks continue to use the phrase “unitary executive” for the theory that animates much of the Bush Administration’s approach.
What is clear is that this is the term that they use. But the unitary executive theory has nothing to do with the kind of unilateral power the Bush Administration is accruing, vis a vis the legislative and executive branches.
The unitary executive theory states that the President directs the Executive Branch; the departments do not operate independently of him. That is not a remarkable position. To some, it also means that there should not be “independent agencies” that operate outside of the executive or legislative branches (like independent counsel Kenneth Starr who hounded Pres. Clinton). That is not an unrespectable position, although subject to debate.
But the Bush Administration has invented something very different: a theory of unilateral executive power that does not depend on power from the legislative branch, and that can override it.
Why adopt the terminology of the Bush people (unitary – one unit) when they are trying to hide within that term something far more sinister (unilateral power – a power that is unchecked and unstoppable by any other branch of government)?
Language matters.
Stirling Newberry @ 14
Stirling,
If you’ve never read the Third Wave, it tells the story quite well. The article was given to us 20 years ago in seminary to show how easy it is for people to get aboard a totalitarian regime. It’s just the kind of thing that fundamentalist churches are doing in practice today which is what makes it so scary.
Hey Joe!! Just wanted to say hello and that you did great the other day on Cspan.
I only had to throw things at the teevee twice.
Looking forward to reading the book- we just added it to the books on http://www.cliffschecter.blogspot.com. ‘Cause you rock!!
we know the majority of americans dont like the direction bushco has moved the USA into – in your travels have you seen much evidence of this and does this bode well for progressives gaining power in this election cycle? and restoring the constitution to its rightful place?
Joe– how much does the politics of fear that this administration has exploited (imho) have to do with the development of the Unitary Executive and current state of fascism?
Do you find that the language bandied about by the administration and their minions and then regurgitated by the MSM (’GWOT’, ‘evildoers’, ‘Islamofascists’) to be part of the problem?
(I am sorry to say that I have yet to read your book)
Hey Joe:
Great and important book about the emergent authoritarianism in this country under Bush. I think the current Us attorney scandal highlights one of the mechanisms of Bush’s brand of authoritarianism. He thinks that it is perfectly acceptable to sack US attorneys if they are not political enough. It’s just politics as usual and then you have Rove going on TV saying this is all normal which of course it is not. The MSM has a huge blind spot when it comes to politically motivated actions that harm the country. Large chunks of the MSM thinks that it’s OK too-just normal politics-nothing to see here so move along. Your book does a great job of calling this destructive behavior out.
Any plans to visit the Raleigh-Durham area on your book tour?
hi, Joe, Stirling–
to extend your point about the presidency being reduced to a cypher, the word “corporatocracy” seems to have, if not been coined during this presidency, been made far more commonplace.
it has long been my pet theory that this Bush “presidency” is a hollow sham; that we have a figurehead and nothing more as president, and that the corporate powers have ascended into what they consider to be their rightful position–supreme leaders of this country, with Cheney as their steward (see how he ran when the UAE snapped their fingers?)…it would certainly explain how corporate media dare not dissent, and how a largely corporate congress remains so supine.
any take on this?
Do you think there is anyway we (the dirty fucking hippies) can get Fox banned from the Democratic National Convention. I attended the last one in Boston and was dismayed to see their booth looking out over the congregation like a predator licking it’s lips.
Joe, what do you think the chances are of the Republicans being reined in by backlash against BushCo. for all the scandals that have been emerging?
Is there a point where the vast majority of people will decide that Republicans simply can’t be trusted, and they don’t want to be associated with the GOP? I don’t mean short-term disgust, I mean a permanent shift – otherwise this is just Watergate & Nixon all over again, with a new Reagan on the horizon in 4-8 years.
Joe! I love the new book, and agree that I miss you on Air America. Please come back to the radio!
Thakns for the coding tips. Ah, what can we do about the media? Until some of the billionaires on our side grow a pair and create television that competes with Fox, etc,. and provide adequate financing for Air America, the answer is that we have to support what independent media we have — and also the organizations such as Media Matters and FAIR that try to create a more level field in the MSM.
Breaking the spell of authoritarianism is an exceptionally difficult political task. But I think Bush and Cheney have done some of the work for us, with their failed war and crooked government. Although pushing back is hard work, the success of that effort over the past few years is tangible. I’ve seen it since the publication of Big Lies in 2003, when we were really pushing the stone up the hill…
Hi, Joe, Stirling. Welcome to the Lake. I want to personally thank you both for the work you are doing.
Joe, your writing is so often the last word for me on any given topic. I really respect the clarity you bring to the issues.
And Stirling, great intro!
Some of you guys may not know this, but Stirling has the most incredible suits. Smashingly dressed.
What a pleasure to the FDL team to have both Stirling and Joe here for Book Salon – thank you both!
Joe, Bought the book after reading Howie Klein’s enthusiastic comments about it. Read it the past 12 hours, and must say… it’s a doozie.
On p. 116, I stopped and made a note to myself that the images swirling around in my brain as I read your book almost bordered on sci-fi images of cyborgs morphing into ever more venal, synthetic, amoral, dehumanizing organizational structures and communications networks, emulated by sinister emoticon-generating Christianist-chanting wraiths.
It really filled my mind with a powerful sense of how all these deeply messed up people have found one another and morphed over time (perhaps attracted by their mutual fears and jealousies — a bit like a carbon atom attracting other, random atoms with free electrons and fusing into something increasingly toxic).
As I read further and further in the book, I had almost Star Trek-like images of hideous, viral-like social and political cyborgs, most of their internal logic wired by greed, secrecy, and powerlust.
—-
Allthough this may not read like a compliment on your end, it’s perphaps one of the greatest commendations that I’ve given a book.
Like George Soros, you seem to present a glimpse of the Really, Really Big Picture. I’m in your debt, and will be passing my copy along — I don’t want it squandered by sitting on my shelf collecting dust, if someone else can be reading my copy.
Questions coming in fast and furious. (Thanks Paddy and I’ll try not to make you blush.)
Terminology is important and I take the point that “unitary executive” is their euphemism for unilateral authority. Nevertheless I use that term because it is the phrase people have heard — if they’re paying any attention at all — and then I proceed to define it correctly as unilateral authority. Or dictatorial or monarchical authority, as George Will once said…
I wouldn’t favor banning Fox from the Democratic Convention for many reasons, both moral and political. Why turn them into victims? They whine enough already.
Survey research seems to show that the Republican brand is in serious trouble, yes. The other day I appeared on Hardball with a GOP consultant from North Carolina. Off air he jokingly said that Rove had gotten them a realignment as promised — only in the wrong direction. Then he invited me to come down to NC to speak to the John Locke Foundation about my book!
Joe Conason @ 30
Ah, care to name names, Joe? (I understand if it’s a bit touchy.) I find it ironic that Bill Gates and Warren Buffett made a big show of donating $32 billion to “charity” when $1 billion spent at home would have done more to fight the problems their “charity” is supposed to address — by attacking the root causes. And of course Barbra Streisand backed off when asked to put her money where her mouth was WRT funding a progressive TV network.
I kind of think that this particular period of time may be remembered historically as a kind of beach-head. There is a confluence of mighty forces all at once, it seems to me. I feel like the Dems walking away from the Fox debate combined with the PR disaster that was the CPAC conference, and a dozen other factors are combining to possibly inflict some real damage on the Right Wing message machine.
The conservatives are in big trouble, I think. What can we all do as writers and activists to hasten their demise?
Joe, I have all 3 of your books and think this one is your best yet. You have hit the nail on the head again. Thanks for all you and personally answering my emails back when you first started with Salon. If not for you and a few others back in ‘03, I would’ve gone insane watching my country go insane.
btw, did you see any of Lowell Bergmans “Frontline” special on the media? I was somewhat disapointed he didn’t mention the elimination of the Fairness Doctrine and the medias participation in the character assasination of Democrats
Welcome Joe & Sterling –
If you haven’t seen it, SusanG has an excellent review of the book at DailyKos –
annagranfors @ 26
The hallmark of the last generation has been a reconcentration of wealth and power in the hands of fewer and fewer people. Never have so few stolen so much from so many. In the eyes of the right, all good comes from a few people who are what Bill Gates calls “the innovators”. What they really mean is the people who are good at breaking large problems down into small problems, and collecting a hefty reward for the piece that makes all the small pieces fit together. While this process is important, I think Robert Heilein had a story The Roads Must Roll that pointed out that no one, however important, deserves to be in complete control of the economy or polity.
Iraq points out the flaw. We are addicted to the carbon economy, and as long as we are, our politics will be more and more nothing but a relentless defense of that jugular vein. People like Bush seduced elites by telling them that his policies would bail them out from the stock market crash, and that he, and he alone, had the power and fortitude to prevent instability in the flow of oil.
I think 2006 represented the year where Americans woke up, and realized that the room they awoke in is not their own, and that the pounding in their head is a hangover from a binge.
Joe, by laying out how small, how tawdry Bush and his cronies are, begins to debunk the “Rise of the Vulcans” myth that somehow the Republican Party is composed of uber-competent warlords.
Joe Conason @ 34
The question then becomes, how do we keep it that way? Assuming that the Republican brand is damaged enough that the Democrats will be in firm control of two branches of government, how do they, and we, combat the inevitable scapegoating as the Democrats in power struggle to clean up all the ugly messes that the Bushies created?
The Democrats will be blamed when Iraq completely implodes, they’ll be blamed if the economy collapses, and of course they’ll be demonized as reckless tax-and-spenders when they try to raise taxes to restore some fiscal sanity. They will need to be able to convey that all of this was due to disastrous *Republican* policies, and convey it through a mostly hostile, Republican-owned media.
thanks to the yeoman work of the progressive blogosphere and writers such as you and others pressure is being applied and with dems in power – now answers will be forthcoming – even a fire has been placed under the NYTimes soo there’s hope yet – lookout MSM!!
Thanks, Joe.
I’d like to note that I participate in the AnySoldier.com program — sending items to those stationed in Iraq & Afghanistan that they request on that site. I’ve developed correspondence/relationships with some of the folks I’ve sent items to, and when appropriate (4 or 5 cases) have responded to their requests for further information by sending both Big Lies and It Can Happen Here, as well as Marcy’s Anatomy of Deceit.
BTW, have you picked up your copy yet?
I miss doing the show with Al, too, of course. It was always a fun way to end the week and I became good friends with Al, Franni, Katherine, Ben Wikler, and a lot of other people associated with the show. I also rediscovered my own love for doing radio. So we’ll see what happens. For now I’m planning to appear on Sam Seder’s show every Friday morning (ET)…but I am getting feelers from other progressive radio producers.
readerOfTeaLeaves @ 33
BusChenic sub-deities…multiply and divide! Destroy the amalgam of liberal democracy! Vengece belongs to the vengeful!
Hi Sterling –
Slightly OT, but where are you blogging these days?
BOPnews was one of my favorite sites, but it seems to have gone away . . .
Joe,
Thanks for pulling together the information about John Yoo and his dirty work. Do you think that there will ever come a time when Yoo, Dinh, Gonzales and the others who have systematically tried to destroy the constitutional protections of habeas corpus and reasonable search and seizure and against torture will be tried for war crimes?
Re: “How can we strike, to paraphrase Thoreau, at the roots of this poison tree, rather than merely swat at its twigs and branches?”
You have to make the unconscious conscious. The conscious consists of the twigs and branches, the unconscious is that which is subterranean. Twigs and branches are individuals, roots are human nature.
You use individuals to lead you to identify and map the roots. With that understanding, you learn to anticipate how roots will behave again in the future and prevent the poison tree from taking hold.
You make the unconscious conscious for others by stating your correct observations over and over, and then some.
Hi Joe, Stirling. Great to have you both here.
What is your take on Halliburton moving its HQ to the UAE?
Each could speak to this I should think.
ww @ 48
Is there any potential convergence with Dubai Ports World?
-ck- @ 45
Thanks for the kind words.
Bop may be back soon, but I haven’t had time to blog between day job, working on book and getting a CD of piano music (which should be available within the next month) done. I’ve missed it, but, duty calls…
Joe: I want you take over that 10pm hour on MSNBC that’s now devoted to boring crime stuff (I think it’s called Lock Up). Better yet, go on at 9:00 right after Olbermann.
You have a radio voice, and TV face.
I am reading Marcy’s book now — I picked up a copy when I was in the Bay Area. It’s a sharp, fast read, very well written and I recommend it even to those who already know a great deal about the case. I didn’t know about the AnySoldier.com program but I’ll look it up — and thanks for sending them my books.
Joe:
Hope you make it down to San Diego. The last I saw your schedule, your California swing didn’t include San Diego. Talked with you last time you were here. Love to see you again. And no, I don’t expect you to remember me.
Glenn
Naming names of the billionaires (and mere multi-multi-millionaires) who should be doing more to balance the media isn’t important. They know who they are and so do you. What amazes me, after talking with a few of them about this topic, is how obtuse they can be. They seem to think that great wealth confers great wisdom. It ain’t so.
OT – if you’re interested, Kansas just beat Texas (88-84 OT) in the Big 12 championship. And a short while ago Ohio State beat Wisconsin 66-42.
Not sure yet whether I will get to San Diego this time but there is a chance. I will be in southern California a couple of times next month — notably at the LA Times Book Festival at the very end of April.
Joe Conason @ 54
Have you talked to Soros? Any insight as to why he categorically refuses to have anything to do with media ownership/sponsorship?
Sorry, Joe. As for banning Fox, I think we (the Dems) have to stop enabling them as “serious journalists”. Such an act would highlight our differences with their “fair and balanced” style of reporting about Democrats and it would be a controversy that we created. A fight WE picked. Like the Dixie Chicks said, “no more making nice”.
I really, really don’t care if they start whining about the big, bad old democrats not treating them with respect.
The Republicans have been picking fights with us for 12 years, it’s time we started a few of our own.
Joe: I want you take over that 10pm hour on MSNBC that’s now devoted to boring crime stuff (I think it’s called Lock Up). Better yet, go on at 9:00 right after Olbermann.
You have a radio voice, and TV face.
Usually they say I have a face for radio, LOL…
Joe Conason @ 59
Could be worse. I have a face for radio and a voice for newspapers.
Joe – I wanted to thank you for your Salon dot com article which revealed the name of Arlen Specters staffer, Michael O’Neill, who placed the clause into the Patriot Act, which would allow for the current USA scandal. Best I can tell, you were the only person to write about him. It’s an outrage and once again I remain amazed at the silence in the MSM and the obvious follow up questions that should be asked of Specter and O’Neill. Anyway, A big kudos and thanks for digging up that info.
Joe Conason @ 59
Hey, I work in radio. What are you trying to say?!
Joe Conason @ 59
au contraire, I saw you on CSpan the other day. You sounded and looked great. it is time that you and more like you are regulars on the talking head shows and on Olbermann and Tweety etc. The scales have been tilted to the right for far too long.
Eureka Springs, AR @ 61
Anyone know if O’Neill is still working for Specter? If Specter was so outraged about his staffer going behind his back and making him look bad, he should have fired him on the spot, right?
By breeding and nurturing authoritarianism in megachurches, don’t the cultists isolate themselves from a great deal of criticism? — after all, here in America, we don’t criticize others’ beliefs. I think this is part of what makes the current trend so difficult to undo.
Welcome Stirling and Joe!
When Al was interviewing Joe on Air America, his voice put me to sleep. It was a good thing, not boredom. I really, really needed to sleep. I told Joe he should make relaxation tapes. Wonderful voice.
Yeah, TRex, but we’ve all seen your picture!!
If Spectre was forced to hire O’Neill to keep his Chairmanship of Judiciary in the 109th, I doubt he can fire him.
TRex @ 62
So sorry, Sweet Pea. I haven’t seen your face, but I just know it’s adorable.
TeddySanFran @ 65
I think they also actively cultivate women and minorities as mouthpieces, so that when we attack them for being full of shit, they can accuse us of racism/sexism/homophobia.
TeddySanFran @ 68
But he’s no longer chair of Judiciary. Shouldn’t the staff of the committee have changed?
Just left to read The Third Wave. Truly fascinating/disturbing.
Joe, miss you on Fridays.
Joe Conason @ 54
The recent support of the FDL community for Plame House and the liveblogging of the Libby trial was proof to me that yes, there is a market for the real news and a fierce one at that. The explanation that we are getting the media that we demand is utter tripe. Someone quoted Bucky Fuller here the other day,
I think we just do that and scr*w the TradMedia. Trying to reform that very entrenched machine will be difficult and expensive, and in the end it will only give us a set of the previous war’s tools while we need to fight the current war.
TeddySanFran @ 68
I kinda suspect the whole thing was a charade so that Specter could abdicate all responsibility for being a right-wing tool, ’cause they put a gun to his head.
TeddySanFran @ 65
As is often the case, the very thing that makes tyranny powerful in the short run is its long run undoing. In the short run having factories that churn out believers, isolated from everything else, means they are unified, certain and aggressive. However, it also means that they are disconnected from reality – witness how the true believers have botched Iraq – and that they are increasingly alien to everyone else.
In the 1980’s Americans saw the religious right as more moral, more virtuous, more pious – all things that Americans aspire to. Increasingly they are seeing the religious right as anti-progressive, and unstable, a sickness.
Joe has a really good chapter at the bizarre underpinnings of the corporatist-theocractic marriage called “The Corporate State of Grace” and how dominionism prevades that marriage.
RevDeb@63
Amen!!! MSNBC thinks it’s being “liberal” when they have Wolff, Isikoff, Alterman et al. on. Sheesh!
If I had spoken privately with Soros about that subject, I wouldn’t feel comfortable discussing that conversation here. Whatever disagreements I may have with him, I regard him as a man who has done a lot of good for this country and the world with his fortune.
However, from what Soros has said publicly already, he seems to think believe that any broadcast media must be profitable and self-sustaining, and he doesn’t regard progressive media as a worthwhile investment. I disagree on all counts. To take just one example, NPR is among the most important media outlets in this country, and it is both nonprofit and government-supported.
When I say “grow a pair,” no disrespect intended, I mean take a risk — as Murdoch did with Fox News Channel, which lost hundreds of millions of dollars before it broke into profitability.
Joe, if you have a face for radio, then why does Joe Scarborough or Cavuto have a TV show? It ain’t your looks, its because your not a conformist sell-out.
This is something I’ve often wondered about–given that these guys covet nothing so much as power, why are they always so inept at actually running a government?
Eli @ 64
Or called the FBI???? Surely changing a debated-on law after the debate and before the vote is, like, illegal? If not, why not?
I’d just like to submit my view as an American who has lived for twenty years in Germany, where it did happen once. The lesson from that history for all of us is that it can happen anywhere.
I suppose that means it’s time for Godwin’s Law, but this is the point of the discussion, after all. History repeats itself, but it doesn’t always repeat itself exactly the same way. If dictatorship comes to any country, it will come within the context and framework of the history and culture that prevails there. If it comes to America, it will be brought to us by the authoritarians and the hate-mongering Ann Coulters, sold under the pretext of national security and religious fundamentalism and the theory of the unitary executive.
The lesson that Germans learned the hard way is that when the threat is looming, we all have to fight against it early before it becomes impossible to stop. For us Americans today, this means right now. And I think it means that the new majority in Congress will have to muster the courage for a pitched battle of constitutional power to restore the order of American democracy. There’s no point in shying away from a constitutional crisis — we’ve already had one ever since the “unitary executive” became the operational theory of presidential power. Congress will have to prepared to assert its constitutional power, and fight for it against an incorrigible administration to the bitter end. Bush/Cheney won’t give an inch, and neither should they. They’ll have to issue subpoenas, compel an end to the warrantless wiretaps, close the illegal prison camps, end the illegal detentions and torturing, expose the corruption of the DoJ, and declare an end to the war. And they’ll have to fight hardball all the way, up to and including impeachment and removal if necessary (and it almost certainly will be necessary).
tikistitch @
79
For the same reason that foxes don’t own good chicken coops. They are there to rob the bank. As one friend of mine quipped, “Is this any way to run a country? Only into the ground, George.”
Joe Conason @ 77
My suspicion is that there is a huge and *very* untapped market for an alternative news network that reports on all the news the other networks bury, and presents all the speakers and viewpoints that the other networks suppress, although I’m not sure it needs to be an explicitly progressive network. Just objective and genuinely balanced, although it would probably be painted as liberal by all the other networks.
But I think more and more people are beginning to realize that the media they have is unreliable, but aren’t really sure what to do about it. They don’t know about the blogs and other resources on the internet, or don’t feel comfortable navigating them.
As I recall, back in the days when CBS was a great network, it was partially because TPTB said “the news division doesn’t have to make money. The rest of the network can make money to support the news division.” They saw providing news as a public trust.
The need to “make money” is one of the reasons for the “Happy News” that now inhabits the CBS Evening News time slot. [After starting out with Dan Rather as my local newsman, and 30 years of loyalty to CBS, I’ve switched to ABC.]
Something as important as creating an informed electorate can’t be left to the whims/popularity of “Deal or No Deal” and “Lost”. (Although both titles are strangely pertinent!)
i’ve often wondered why wealthy liberals didnt combine some of that wealth and backed media as right-wing moguls do…..- dont they see how effective wingers have become?
Actually, I’m not the only journalist to write about Michael O’Neill. Dahlia Lithwick, the excellent legal reporter and commentator at Slate.com, wrote an extensive article about O’Neill, Senator Specter and the Patriot Act amendment on US Attorneys just last week. Don’t have the URL handy but it should be easy to find — and it raises many of the same questions being asked here.
So far Specter, one of the most slippery “moderates” on the GOP side of the aisle, has provided no plausible answers to those questions. He is on the minority side now but O’Neill still seems to be working there anyway…
Hi, Joe, longtime reader, first time asker: what’s the business climate for books like yours these days? It seemed like there was quite a spurt of “anti-establishment” books all coming out pre-2004 election. What do your publishers think of the sales for this one so far? Are they actively promoting it?
I was just reading a piece on Coulter’s reaching “the tipping point” from AP (amusingly enough, the commentary was written by AP’s TV writer, not a political analyst). The executive producer of the Today Show was quoted as saying some members of the show’s staff didn’t want Coulter to come on when she was promoting “Godless” last summer, but he overruled them because (quoting the article), “Having only certain points of view would make for a bland program, he said.”
I’d like to ask about your experience over the past few years when you’ve been out selling your books. Did the Today Show beat a path to your door?
(BTW, here’s the link to the article, if anyone’s interested:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..nn_coulter )
Well, running a democratic government. If you read Joe’s book in conjunction with, say, John Dean’s “Conservatives Without Conscience,” you get a pretty good idea of why they keep trying.
Thanks Buckeye. Those are my sentiments exactly — and the reason I wrote this book.
Mauimom @ 84
The rest of the corporate parent can make money from Republican policies that far exceed the money they make on ratings. Which is why I believe that the Republican propaganda imperative outweighs the profit imperative when they conflict (i.e., lurid, juicy Republican scandals like Gannon or Foggo).
Joe Conason @ 30
I think Joe makes a great point here. We need to support ALL of the independent media to counterbalance the firehose of right-wing media.
One liberal radio host who is in desperate need of our support is Guy James. Never heard of him? Download a free podcast here (scroll to the bottom for most recent show):
http://www.whiterosesociety.org/James.html
If you like what you hear, please help him out with a donation or subscription:
http://www.theguyjamesshow.com…..James.html
There’s currently a drive to get about 60 more listeners/supporters to keep him afloat. Personally, I’ve contributed to AAR, NovaM and Guy James.
If you can afford to help him, please do so.
- Tom
Buckeye @ 81– great comment! Thanks.
As a non-anorexic non-blonde, I have not found that the Today Show is clamoring for me to appear on their air. They did have Gene and me on when we wrote The Hunting of the President , possibly because it offered an occasion to air Hillary Clinton’s “VRWC” clip again.
If you want me on the air, please let the shows know — I doubt that Today will put me on but I maintain hope that Olbermann, Colbert, etc will be open to this kind of discussion.
Eli @ 90
Yeah, GE’s making boatloads of cash off its war profiteering. They could/should have a great news department [NBC].
Joe Conason @ 77
In olden days, wealthy patrons supported social and cultural enterprises — thinkers, musicians, universities, scholars. Many of these patrons were the aristocracy, either born so or elevated by reason of merit — ok, usually by virtue of making lots of money, but still. Many took their duties to maintain and improve society seriously.
Having forsworn an aristocracy, in a democracy the responsibility for supporting these institutions belongs to the people. That means tax dollars. Public radion, public television, and a free internet.
I think the real danger point is this next Presidential election. Clinton has been making noises that she’s not averse to laying hands on all the power that Bush has consolidated into the Executive. Others might feel the same once they get in there. If the withered condition of the other branches becomes a permanent norm – detached from BushCo – that’s the end of the story.
Don’t forget The Daily Show. Jon Stewart is really smart, and an appearance on his show boosts book sales.
What is important with Joe’s book is what Buckeye mentioned about Germany. Hitler wasn’t Hitler, the one we now know, at the beginning (at least to others). Hitler was first elected then acquired more power as he went. It’s important to stop these things early.
Stirling Newberry @ 82
Ding! In understanding what this administration is doing, I have found it useful to ask myself the question, “How does this action transfer tax or consumer dollars to the very rich?”
Joe Conason @ 86
Dahlia Lithwick on O’Neill
tatere @ 96
On the one hand, I find myself thinking that unfettered executive power might be really handy for cleaning up all the Republican messes, but:
A) It’s not worth it, and
B) I’m not convinced that Hillary would use such powers for good anyway.
The only positive outcome, and I don’t know whether it’s parliamentarily feasible, would be to leverage the situation to get the Republicans to agree to strictly enforced, ironclad restrictions on presidential (and majority) power, which can only be overturned or bypassed with, say, a 75% majority vote.
I’m sorry to say that the liberals and progressives with wealth have simply not been as enterprising or as focused as their counterparts on the right over the past 30 years. They flit around from one cause or organization to another, while the right sustained support for groups and individuals decade after decade. That is what built the noise machine, the infrastructure, and provided the ideas and authors that continue to make them run.
Fortunately, some far-sighted people understand this now and have taken steps toward building the same kind of infrastructure on the left. But they’re learning as they go, and some of them are faster learners than others…
Cool2it @ 98
Hitler was just some clownish buffoon. Who could ever imagine that he would be such a megalomaniacal threat to freedom and peace and, well, life itself?
Buckeye Hamburger @
81
We should remember that George Herbert Walker and Prescott Bush were early funders of Hitler and the Nazi Party. George W Bush was weened on hatred of the New Deal, and anything that benefits average Americans.
Okay, so the “to do” list is looking like:
*buy many more copies of Joe’s book;
*contact The Daily Show, Today, Olbermann re having Joe as a guest;
*support other liberal media outlets;
*pressure millionaire & billionaire friends to start additional liberal media outlet(s) [I’ll get right on that one.]
PS – Joe, try to get booked on Diane Rehm here in DC. She has a good audience & will ask good questions. I’ll add contacting her to the to do list.
joe—-what do you think about the prospect of impeachment? there certainly is enough impeachable things this administration has done that make even nixon’s acts pale in comparison, but the congress doens’t seem like they have the will to go that far.
why is the congress being so timid? I’m starting to think the talk of redployment will be rendered useless until there is someone in the white house who is willing to solve this situation diplomatically. it also would be a signal to the world that THIS IS NOT WHAT AMERICA OR DEMOCRACY IS SUPPOSED TO BE LIKE!
Hitler… there was a painter! He could paint an entire apartment in ONE afternoon! TWO coats!
I’m sorry. I had to say that.
OT: #1 seeds: FL, UNC, OSU & KS
Stirling and Joe — Do you think Congress might have an appetite to impeach Cabinet-level officials, e.g. Gonzales, as John Dean recommends? Overturning the Presidential election (no matter how fraudulent) seems beyond them, and my Congresswoman has un-set the impeachment table to, apparently, focus on “real work.”
And, well, we’re leftists–shouldn’t we concentrate on building this stuff from the bottom up, rather than waiting for some rich guys to save us?
Let’s keep on topic for this thread please.
The NCAA pairings will still be available after Book Salon.
Thanks.
Buckeye @ 81 – completely agree. My comment @ 47 speaks to the repetitive aspects of human nature as well. Punishing individuals isn’t a solution though it’s instructive for people and validates what is acceptable or not. But punishment isn’t such a great deterrent to human nature. You have to expect it will happen again -anticipate it- and not regard it as evil.
I think to the extent you use language that normalizes this kind of expectation, it becomes more acceptable for the general public to contemplate and address as it relates to all people in power.
Nancy Pelosi said impeaching Bush was off the table which I still agree with but she didn’t say anything about Cheney. Given what was described at the trial, Congress should definitely look into the Office of the VP.
watertiger @ 107
707 ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5KM2HosqOo
Hey Joe, sorry to be late. Thanks so much for being here today. It’s a fabulous book, Howie Klein could not stop gushing about it this weekend and I was his chorus. Should be required reading.
Just wanted to be sure to welcome and thank both Stirling and Joe for joining us today.
This is a terrific book and I was sorry that the night Joe was at Politics & Prose here in DC I was mired in Libby trial stuff and unable to attend, even though I had marked the date on my calendar.
Stewart’s producers have told my publicist that although they “love” me, they’re not going to show me the love this time. I hesitate to criticize Jon because I enjoy the Daily Show so much and think they do a real public service, especially in the opening monologue. I wonder occasionally about his choice of guests. Why is he so enamored of Fareed Zakaria, who so unwisely endorsed the invasion of Iraq? Jon did kick Bill Kristol’s ass, however.
Jane!!!
Joe Conason @ 117
They love you, but they’re not *in* love with you.
It’s not you, it’s them.
Joe, Listening to you now on AirAmerica. Great interview..Thanks for all you do.
Mauimom, Gators are going all the way!
[Mod Note; let’s stay on topic for Book Salon, please]
Joe Conason @ 54
Yup. Plus, most of the very rich are drones sitting on piles of money they inherited; all they did to get rich was pick the right womb. There are very few “self-made” rich people; even Bill Gates himself didn’t start out dirt-poor, as his father was the name partner in Seattle’s toniest white-shoe law firm. And even the self-mades had a lot of help getting their pile.
Plus, being able to amass (or hold onto) large piles of cash doesn’t guarantees wisdom in other areas — in fact, it’s more likely that the person has focused so much on protecting his/her money that his/her brain doesn’t have room for anything else — not that this stops them from thinking they’re experts at certain things, such as flying small planes.
Gotta go.
Thanks for everything Joe.
Stirling Newberry @ 39
Stirling, sorry to take so much of the context from your comment (especially that Heinlein part ;-)
Nevertheless: we have only started to grasp the ramifications of reliance on petrocarbons. But there’s definitely a hunger for info — one that Faux News is ill equipped to feed.
———————
Over and over, it struck me Joe’s narrative supports my assumption that for Bu$hCo, government is really a means of controlling business/finance and resources — particularly in an age of increasingly scarce resources.
They seem to view government as “business by other means”, which is one reason that the Constitution is of little interest to them. If ‘government’ represents a way for you to get your hand on economic resources (land, financial regulations, whatever…) then you don’t put much emphasis on the Constiution; your focus is going to be on regulatory and agency appointments. And judgeships.
Which underscores your point about Bush signaling to elites that he — and only he — could keep the oil flowing. That’s what someone who views ‘government as biz by other means’ would do, IMHO.
I do wish that “Syriana” had included a scene of the Rendon Group getting $100 million to set up the Iraqi National Congress; I hadn’t connected that dot prior to reading your book. Appalling.
Thanks for making that point. Its the crux: that it is all about power. They do not believe in the unitary executive, at most in a unitary republican executive. There is no longer a Republican theory of government, only useful justifications for accruing wealth and power by Republicans. They will use these arguments: signing statements, disregard for congressional restraints, corruption of the legislative process and the rules of the legislature. But as we saw when Congress changed hands, the Republicans did not bat an eye before complaining of unfair practices by the Democratic majority. In other words, these are only precedents that can be used by Republican administrations. This was already evident in the 2000 debates, when Bush was asked which military actions in the past twenty years he supported. His answer boiled down to every Republican use of the military was justified and correct, and Democratic action ill-advised and fruitless. He was fine with Lebanon (Reagan), but opposed to Kosovo (Clinton). Pure dishonesty.
What worries me are the parallels to Israel. Notwithstanding deserved respect for Israeli intellectual life and their vibrant media, the mechanisms of the terror state, authoritarianism, militarism, right wing religiosity seem indomitable and I believe are being consciously copied. And a great deal of their effectiveness is the ease with which progressive and moderate elements of the opposition can be played off against each other.
Okay, so the “to do” list is looking like:
Thanks Mauimom — I think I know you from somewhere (Salon TT perhaps?)…I’ve never been invited on the Rehm show. She hates the Clintons and is among those in Washington who won’t forgive me for being right about Whitewater and Starr LOL…
mark @ 121
Watch out, or you too will get scolded. I was only providing a public service re the #1 seeds and . . .
Joe Conason @ 102
Sadly we have forgotten the lessons of the past, or perhaps had become overconfident with the impeachment of Nixon. I saw US vs. Lennon last night. It’s deja vu all over again. I can’t agree more with Joe. Bush is Nixon without any of the checks, balances or restraints that Nixon faced thirty-five years ago. I understand why Congress is out to lunch, ditto for the Democrats and the media, but where have the rest of us been? Where are the protests? Where is the outrage? I am just awakening to the total debasement of our country and I am OUTRAGED!
tikistitch @ 110
How do we reach Joe and Jane Lunchbucket, who still get their news from drive-time radio and the evening TV news? Got any ideas on how to get and keep the attention of a hundred million people every night — that doesn’t require a few billion dollars to be spent?
Yep, and persistent e-mails/comments.
I’ll shoot Rehm’s show an e-mail & encourage others to do so.
Political Chowder should be on Joe’s list of places to contact. Arnie’s great and it would be a great conversation.
Joe,
So many good books, so little time! I read _Hunting of the President_. Brilliant! I haven’t had time to read _It Is_, but hope to.
Was it you or Christy who pointed out that it was the Works Progess Administration that produced the original play by Sinclair Lewis? I didn’t know he’d made the book into a play. Hard to find information about it.
Also, did you know AK Press has begun distributing the 1980 film, The Free Voice of Labor: The Jewish Anarchists, which includes an interview with a very young Joe Conason?
Cool2it @ 113
I heard that similar things were said before Nixon got impeached too. If investigations like the libby, walter reed, or the attourny scandals get exposed publicly as going all the way to the top there may be a chane though.
Joe—-don’t you think a major effort for impeachment would be the best way to really send a nation-wide message about the nature of the threat we face?
Ed*ard Teller @ 132
Joe is a Jewish anarchist? Awesome!
What about The Colbert Report? Or do the two shows share the same producers?
mauimom@130
LMAO – my sentiments exactly! i’ll get right on it as of now;o}
For the reader who asked about San Diego — I just got word that I may be doing an event there sponsored by the local Democrats. Updates will be appearing regularly on my website joeconason.com…
tatere @ 96
A very important point — we must bear in mind that no one can be trusted with the kind of power that Bush/Gonzo/Yoo have claimed for the presidency, not even someone we think might be inclined to use it “reasonably”. Hell, back in 2000 not even Bush looked like he would turn out to be the torturing tyrant that he’s become. Frankly, I think he’s stumbled into that role, not due to any grand design, but basically because of his emotional insecurity.
For my signature over at the Daily Kos, I chose the phrase “Absolute power corrupts absolutely” (a line attributed to Lord Acton, although I think I first heard it from Captain Kirk while he was overthrowing some galactic despot). Bush/Cheney have made a bid for absolute power, and the result has been torture, war-mongering, indefinite detentions without trial or attorneys — utter corruption almost everywhere you look. Frankly, I think that any of the Democratic candidates would succumb to the temptations of absolute power if they had it.
Has anyone asked Clinton, Obama, Edwards and the rest about their view of the unitary executive? Shouldn’t this be one of the most important issues of the 2008 election?
OOPS thats mauimom@105 picture me red-faced…..
Joe Conason @
102
Thank you very much for your thoughts but it sounds like trying to herd cats to me. Liberals ain’t goose-steppers.
The most pernicious effect of the destruction of liberalism in this country in my view is the rise of a rightwing that is labeled liberal and isn’t at all. I think I don’t need to name names.
For what little it’s worth, the rise of Obama seems to me to give a strong hint there is lots of life yet on the left.
Any comments?
Best, Terry
Mr. Conason, it is a great honor to have you here at FDL.
Buckeye Hamburger @ 138
9/11 helped. A lot. Without 9/11, no Patriot Act, no Afghanistan, no Iraq, no torture, no indefinite detentions, no warrantless wiretaps, no re-election.
If there was no 9/11, they would have had to invent one.
Joe and Stirling — So sorry I’m running late to a great discussion. We went out to pick up Chinese take-out for dinner, and The Peanut fell asleep in the back fo the car. We decided to let her sleep it out, and that took much longer than I anticipated. Can’t wait to go back through and read comments!
Okay, I’m going over to Amazon.com now. Which book do you guys think I should order: Joe’s or Coulter’s?
I don’t know the kid who appears in that movie…Actually, my grandfather was a Jewish anarchist and I was named after him. He was one of the editors of the Free Voice of Labor, or Freie Arbeiter Stimme in Yiddish, whose offices in Manhattan’s Union Square were very near where I work now.
I discuss a bit of the history of It Can’t Happen Here , including the play and the aborted effort to make a movie, in the introduction to my book. But a fuller account can be found in Sinclair Lewis, Mark Schorer’s fascinating biography.
Thanks for everything, Joe. You’re the greatest.
Come back to DC. Perhaps Diane Rehm and a book-signing at Barnes & Noble.
And where can we find your recent Hardball appearance? It’s not on their web site. Perhaps they’re afraid of your outshining the host.
Eli @ 64
Does the term “plausible deniability” sound familiar to you, Eli? C’mon, you know as well as I do that you do not do something like that unless you first clear it with your boss, the guy who signs your checks, the guy in whose service you’re supposed to be. I don’t care if the President, himself, tells you to do it, you clear it with Spector, if only to cya.
Joe,
With the disruptions that peak oil,{being the petro-carbon junkies we are},isnt the danger that whoever gets the presidecy will feel the need to establish even more authoritarian type actions to deal with the societal upheval? Katrina/Rita is a good example…
Oh,Stirling…I also miss BOP…
Usually they say I have a face for radio, LOL…
Don’t think so silly. I would love to see you on teevee.
What about bringing back the fairness doctrine? Would that help matters/
Ann in AZ @ 147
I think my skepticism was pretty obvious, right? Specter is a liar. Period.
This is my favorite part so far:
It was one of those brief, pithy head smackers that make you go “of course.”
I couldn’t agree more — and I intend to do so myself when I have the opportunity. I happen to believe that preserving Constitutional rights shouldn’t be a partisan issue – and should bring together advocates of fairly disparate ideologies who value what the founders created. Indeed, I don’t believe that we will succeed in rolling back the incursions of the neoconservatives without the help of honest conservatives and libertarians.
Never forget that Barry Goldwater helped to rid us of Nixon…
Other favorite parts — “the windbags of war” and the discussion of Michael Ledeen, whose activities need a LOT more sunlight on them.
Joe,
Hope you can make it to San Diego.
Eli at 41, I’m worried about the dems being blamed for all of this administration’s crap too. I haven’t decided who I support for president yet, but if somebody does treat us as if we have a brain, and that we can accept that there are bills to pay, I will support that person. Thank heavens for Waxman.
Joe @ #145,
Thanks. I’ve been looking for good info on the play on the web since reading about it above. Apparently, you have to rent the play version of _It Can’t Happen Here_, as it isn’t published. Are there any doggies out there who have ever seen it produced?
I’m fascinated that the legacy of a play on such an important subject, and by somebody of Sinclair’s stature, is only covered in such a comprehensive biography as Mark Schorer’s.
Don’t know how to find the Hardball appearance but it definitely occurred on March 1…
Joe, funny that your Booklist review was written by someone named Bush. (Just saw it over on Amazon.)
does anyone hear recall chomsky’s manufacturing consent? this bunch in power most definitely has done that….
TeddySanFran @ 65
That’s why I think it’s so funny that the top four Repug candidates have like eleven wives and ex-wives among them and the only guy with just one wife is the Mormon. I think the serial marriage practiced by so many of the Repug faithful will slow them down quite a bit on the way to the next election.
Jane Hamsher @ 151
Worse yet, the dividing is achieved by lumping the opposition in with the enemy that all right-thinking Americans must unite against.
Joe, please come to Austin.
We’re surrounded here.
Joe Conason @ 156
If only I’d known, I would have set the TiVo before coming to the Politics & Prose event!
Eli @ 142
Bush-the-wannabe-Tyrant was in place long before the 2000 election. Karl Rove had worked very hard to cultivate a moderate image of Bush throughout his years as Governor. Even the longtime Bush watchers like Molly Ivins and James Moore were shocked by the reactionary radicalism once the got into power. Bush wasn’t kidding when he said “If this were a dictatorship, it’d be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I’m the dictator.”
Joe, back in 2002 we corresponded about the my pet story — that Karl Rove and George Bush had launched the criminal conspiracy to steal the election no later than 1998, using Tom Feeney and Jeb Bush to implement the Florida Voter Purge.
Details can be found at democrats.com/blueprint
–
Yes — one more reason to start planning for a different kind of energy future now.
They value marriage so much they must partake of it often, while denying any taste of it to teh demon gays.
TeddySanFran @ 65
Teddy, what seems to be the only thing doing the trick with the undoing of some megachurches is the downfall of their beloved authority figures. If the org. is designed to be top down and the top is revealed to be a fraud, the whole rest of it crumbles. Therein lies our work, to expose the people at the top for who they are. Some of them are helping us along with this. Others will require some work.
-ck- @ 162
I know the motive was always there, but 9/11 gave him the perfect opportunity.
Eli @ 150
Yeah, I know you’re too smart for that. I’m just sayin’, Spector must think we’re all really gullible or stupid.
Joe Conason @ 162
To change the way energy works, we must change the way money works.
I wonder if any of your West Coast [or other] events can be picked up for Book TV?
Hi Jane! Thanks for hosting me here. I’m glad you liked “windbags of war,” but I must confess that’s somebody else’s brilliant phrase. I did make a decent joke about Karl Rove and forks in there, but the only laugh I’ve gotten so far is from Mark Schmitt…
Mauimom @ 162
transcript.
I also wasn’t one of those who recalled Jeane Kirkpatrick’s work with fondness at her passing. Thanks for this:
How many current international crises are the result of the repercussions of this policy? It boggles the mind.
Bush was forced to be moderate when he was the governor.
Karl Rove, on the other hand, has always been a nasty, vindictive, evil son of a bitch. Even other republicans here hate him.
TeddySanFran @ 165
I’ve decided the easiest way to get stem cell research approved would be to tell the GOP it can lead to a cure for homosexuality.
Joe Conason @ 152
Don’t we need rather a supply of pitchforks that the founders envisioned as a defense against “moneyed interests?”
Seems to me that the acceptance of the right of rule of the upper classes is the main problem bedeviling the country rather than some hangover from Nixon. “Suffering middle class” ring a bell?
Best, Terry
Ann in AZ @ 168
He’s been infected with the same historical delusional disorder as the rest of them.
Not yet but we’ll see. I wouldn’t be surprised if they record the LA Book Festival panel next month, which includes me, Frank Luntz, and our old friend Spikey Isikoff…
Joe Conason @
86
I was rather shocked to hear Spector on FTN this morning going on about the Libby conviction and the nation subjected to four years of the special-prosecutor-out-of-control and the waste of taxpayer resources. Spector is a former prosecutor, yet he is no longer bothered by lying to the FBI and to Grand Juries? My understanding is that Libby had already lied to the FBI before Fitzgerald was assigned to the case, and that particular felony was looking Fitzgerald in the face when he started. There was a time when Republicans did believe in the rule of law overriding party loyalty.
Joe Conason @ 171
I liked the line you got off about the Pod (”excitable son of neocon eminence Norman” I think it was). Nice shot at his old man, too, didn’t you call him an “amateur” foreign policy expert or something?
sab @ 179
That time is long over. They believe in “laws for thee, but not for me.”
Re: megachurches, while everyone chortled over the recent layoffs at Ted’s place, I was amazed that they said their income was off only ten percent. Imagine how bad it must be if they admit to ten percent!
sab @ 177
Why would you be surprised? Specter’s job is to make the law conform to administration policies and actions so that nothing they do stays illegal long enough for prosecution.
Joe, I’d love to see you as the NewsHour guest liberal when Mark Sheilds is away.
Still, it might be hard to clean up the mess when David Brooks head explodes.
-ck- @ 182
I don’t think there’d be much to clean up.
Jane Hamsher @ 180
Jane, isn’t everyone connected with Bushco an amateur? I’m always astonished to hear Barlett or Karl Rove opining about foreign policy.
They clearly do not know what the fuck they are talking about. Not a one of them had any experience in this area before Bush got into office.
Spoiler @ 175
They wouldn’t bite on that. The gay issue is a wedge and a cash cow for them. They would never want to see that revenue stream disappear.
Bush wants the right-wing thoecrats on his side. They tend to organized and in lock-step and he has pandered to their mis-guided belief that this is a Christian Nation. Then to where the money is, the corporations and people who control them. Thirdly, he brings fear to the masses, witness all of eleveated alerts that always seemd to happen when things were not going his way. Then the dis-enfranchisement of as many voters as possible. The media has been cowered through various means both carrots and sticks. The Justice Department is a joke under Gonzales so there is no watchdog. It goes on.
I read It Can’t Happen Here many years ago, that and 1984, and Big Bro is part way here.
Phoenix Woman @ 122
Joe Conason @ 54
I agree. Why blame Soros, or Gates, or anyone else for failing to fund media? It’s your dream; live it yourself.
Gates is probably going to single-handedly do more for global health than any other individual. He shouldn’t have to perform every bloody Good Act on the planet. Good grief! (And I have it from reliable second-hand friends that both his parents were extremely civic minded, so chill.)
Soros has very clearly identified his priorities. They don’t include media; he appears to value participatory activities over passive things like teevee. What point is there in fuming about how HE spends HIS money?!
Buckminster Fuller was right — move on. Create the new thing. It’s happening; the media will catch on, or it won’t. The people at Fox are ‘message control freaks’ and they’re the least equipped to deal with what’s coming. The NYT is light years beyond what Fox is doing; philosophically, and simply from looking at their information architecture.
As for all the whining about ‘media,’ I can only say that whenever I go online to watch Nicholas Kristoff’s reporting at the NYT, I thank my lucky stars that SOMEONE at that media organization invested in the sending a reporter overseas with a video camera — and then must have invested MILLIONS in building the infrastructure to archive, search, and display it on demand.
‘Cmon folks, whining about Gates, or Soros, or anyone else isn’t going to solve problems.
The Internet is based on Open Source protocols — anyone who doesn’t ‘get that’ is failling to glimpse the future.
And as for Keith Olberman and Tweety, I never watched them until they were available online. Now I watch them several times each week — and I assume that MSNBC can tell **exactly and precisely** how many clicks they get.
Don’t expect some white knight on a horse to save the day. This is about Open Source Citizenship. It’s our shared, collective obligation.
Okay, now I’ll be nice again ;-)
Yes, Jane — to me this is very important because it raises an important question about the neoconservative commitment to democracy. For the most part they were either indifferent or ferociously opposed to democratic forces abroad during the Reagan era. The sole exception was Wolfowitz, who played a decent role in helping to get rid of Marcos in the Philipppines without a huge amount of bloodshed. Most of the neocons were on the wrong side of that, too.
Joe Conason @ 77
Sorry, I just have to disagree here. Perhaps it was more true at one time, but NPR regularly lets remain unchallenged GOP talking points and spin. Their coverage is decidedly shallow on many counts. That they look more like real journalists when compared to the norm isn’t saying much.
I have no affiliation, and just found the site awhile ago.
http://nprcheck.blogspot.com/
I noticed for a long time what nprcheck puts to words very well. Its a worthy site.
I think it’s just an excuse they’ve glommed onto.
Speaking of Frank Luntz, I saw him on C-Span several weeks ago on After Words (I think) discussing his book. While I don’t want to say that he would do this, but the way he was discussing terminology made me think he could be telling Hitler he needed to come up with a better expression for his “Jewish problem”. It seemed so disassociated from the substance of what was going on. Don’t worry about what you’re doing, worry about how to describe it.
ROTL – That’s all very well and good for *us*, but we still need to get the truth to the people who only get their news from TV, or second-hand from other people who watch TV.
And maybe Gates wouldn’t have to spend billions on global health initiatives if we had a government willing to do so. (Of course, I’m assuming that a Democratic government would give a damn, which kind of depends on who’s in charge)
Cool2it @ 193
That’s PR in a nutshell. And that’s Bush in a nutshell as well. They are much more concerned with appearances than with substance. Always have been.
sorry, I’m coming in woefully late here, but I think you’re great, Joe. And heartily agree, it is happening here.
Not for nothing, but the US government can’t possible support every health care initiative overseas. I think there is a place for private philanthropy in that arena.
And it’s reasonable for a man to decide where his priorities are.
Joe Conason @ 190
Yep, and I liked this, too:
Abu Ghraib and Gitmo didn’t just “happen.” They have a legacy that scared the shit out of many of us for decades.
Oh well, it allows Bush to go to South America and cause no small amount of chaos and a few casualties to drum up sympathy in the American press when he is piloried. So I suppose it was useful to some.
fourlegsgood @ 195
It is a bit ironic, given that the knock on liberals is that they want the government to fix all the world’s problems…
I just happen to think that it’s of paramount importance that our government should never again be in the control of thieves, murderers, and assholes. An awful lot of good will flow from cleaning up our government, *if* we can do it.
Someone who knows John Amato @ Crooks & Liars should check with him and see if he has it recorded. I’m not sure how far back he keeps stuff, but he does record Hardball
Eli @ 199
Well, yeah. Me too. But you already knew that.
Trying to catch up with this thread.
I agree with Eli upthread that there is a hunger out there for a real news outlet. I see so many stories not reported, under-reported, or spun into caricature that some hard no nonsense news reporting the rare times that it occurs (say on many of the Frontlines) is a breath of sanity.
Also I just heard about a new site tracking the Congress today. I don’t know how good it will be but here is their URL:
http://www.opencongress.org/
It might be worth keeping an eye on.
One of my favorite lines from the book, on p. 106 where you tell about Bush judicial appointees and legal officials claiming that CONGRESS “lacks standing” to sue the Pres and VP.
Chilling.
As for MSNBC> msnbc.com. Click on “msnbc.com’ and a new nav bar will open on the left side of the screen that includes “HARDBALL”. From there, users have to go to the bottom of the screen and click the ‘get more videos’ button. That’s one way to find you. Sorry, didn’t capture the link yet.
Buying that Coldwater Tide they advertise on that site, and hoping it sends the right message. Jane, P&G ought to be advertising here — this must have a target demographic ;_)
fourlegsgood @ 199
So do you believe that the rocket to shoot the Bushies into the sun should be privately or publicly financed? I’m certainly willing to chip in.
Joe Conason @
54
Same as it ever was . . .
So close to being EPU’d but — I just had to say, the above paragraph summarizes the woes of The People vis-a-vis The Aristocrats since forever.
But the problem isn’t that The Aristocrats believe their own press. The problem is that The People believe The Aristocrats’ press.
Jane Hamsher @ 198
Hell, Cheney has Elliot Abrams advising him and his cronies how to be a shadow government and do “dirty” around the world. No voersight on this unless Waxman or other Dem Chairman gets after them.
LindaR @ 203
Well, obviously it’s *impossible* to make a lot of money without being one sharp cookie. Or get elected president.
ww @
191
I agree! This spot deserves more rcognition and more traffic. I, too, discovered it within the past few weeks. They not only comment on NPR’s shortcomings, but on their strong points. Missing, recently, has been any comment (there – or here, unless I missed it) about Ari Shapiro ending up taking over a high percentage of NPR’s Libby coverage from Nina Totenberg.
Specter is a dreadful man and a blowhard who played patsy for Ken Starr right up until the moment when he had to make a choice on impeachment. And then he ducked his constitutional responsibility. It isn’t surprising that he would now suck up to the neocons on behalf of Scooter. His attacks on Fitzgerald are appalling.
Eli @ 142
Some of us knew back then that Bush was dangerous. Molly wrote a book about his sleezy character and failures in business and governing. The press wrote about the money. A man who would preside over the execution of 152 men and women in Texas with such relish is not to be trusted, no matter what campaign slogans he uses.
Eli @ 204
Privately funded. Your donations are welcome.
sorry to be so OT at the book salon, but are any fdl commentators working on a piece re Bush’s SA/CA tour? Pach would be excellent, or Howie Klein, as he’s just come back from some of the same territory.
mrobinsong @ 208
I knew he was bad news back in 2000, but I didn’t know just *how* bad. Although I don’t think he would have been nearly as huge a disaster without 9/11.
Joe Conason @ 209
He has the spine of a wet noodle. He’s a jackass.
Hey Joe:
Will you be at Yearly Kos? I would encourage a book tour swing through Tar Heel country-there are very Blue patches here in this very red state.
I think that FDL should mount an email campaign to get you on Olberman (as a regular contributor) as well as Jon Stewart. He does seem to throw more than a few bones to the Right. (More than are deserved) He did also do a good job of taking down Dinesh D’Sousa-that was really good TeeVee.
Joe Conason @ 209
And then there was his cross examination of Anita Hill…
I happen to find much that I value in listening to NPR coverage. Totenberg’s coverage of the Libby trial and her Supreme Court coverage in general are superior to most broadcast news. There are many fine reporters on NPR although I agree that they bend over backward, like so many mainstream outlets, for fear of being termed “liberal.” Of course it doesn’t help them much — the wingers want to defund them anyway.
But whatever NPR’s shortcomings — and I think it’s good that media watchdogs monitor them too — I find the local NPR hosts very congenial to me and my work. Not so much the DC HQ, where a lot of them have had sticks up their butts since the Clinton years. (I had a tough interview with Juan Williams on Talk of the Nation when I was on the Hunting tour.)
Warren Olney on To the Point, as well as the folks at Northeast Public Radio and Wisconsin Public Radio, to name only a few, have given me lots of airtime and still do.
Joe, Great radio voice, but you definitely keep me awake (not to sleep like in #66). Will definitely buy the book. What is the best indirect jump-link to order from at Amazon — to put extra money in someone’s pocket?
Oh yeah, OT:
OH AITCH!!! EYE OH!!!
From now until the end of March, let’s all shout “Oden!” along with “Fitz!”. Atlanta, here we come!
Joe Conason @
217
As a moderate Democrat, I’m having a difficult time realizing just who are the most EXTREME fascists, the ones on the right, or the ones on the left. As a Democrat of 29 years, I thought we could have an open and reasonable discussion about the issues, but, having now been banned from three (3), so-called Democratic blogs, somehow I’m beginning to NOT feel welcome. This must be the NEW DIRECTION the Democrats are moving in.
Joe Conason @
190
I remember when Bush had his little summit at Eilat after the Iraq war had being going on for awhile. Bush talked about spreading democracy. Americans treated it with a big yawn, as more Bush hot air. I was surprised at the time by the genuine excitement of (English-speaking) Middle Eastern blogs and news-sites. They really seemed to believe that Bush meant it and would do something. More hopes shot down by Bush’s crew.
-ck- @ 184
That would be the liberal Mark “I’m really very fond of John McCain” Shields? I’m really getting tired of Shields. He apologizes for or caveats into non-existence anything remotely liberal.
Joe Conason @ 209
He’s just the Joseph Lieberman from Pennsylvania. He will backstab anything he gets near. If he were a horse, he would be glue.
My original point about NPR, which I somehow lost above, is that their presence is a very important and powerful part of the media universe — and their nonprofit status is not relevant to that power. In short I was arguing with Soros, who seems to feel that profitabilty is a prerequisite for broadcasting success.
By the way, I don’t agree that the liberal billionaires etc have no responsibility for the mediasphere. If they are as worried about the direction of the nation and the world as they claim to be, then they have to try to understand and change the conditions that led to conservative domination. Media alternatives are part of any longterm solution.
Please order the book from the link on the FDL opening page and reward our kind hosts…
Joe,
Is O’Neill still working for Specktor?
DfD, you start by reading the directions at the top of the page:
Bold is mine.
If you have a question or comment for Mr. Conason, about his book, go ahead. If you want to whine about getting kicked off three other blogs, we’ll be happy to
kick your asspolitely and respectfully discuss that on other threads, not the FDL book forum.Let us not forgot the Democratic Leadership Council, kind of Republican-Lite. They will get in bed with whoever has the $$$’s. They don’t exactly represent us small potatoes.
John Casper @ 225
You can have off-topic conversations on the next thread, too – but preferably not that one…
Or support your local bookstore.
Now I can see just how much clout moderate Democrats have today, although not the Party’s elitists, there is enough of us around to change the control of Congress from one side to the other, frustrating for you guys huh? We don’t need the MSM evening news, NPR, or EXTREMIST blogs on either side. Folks, your influence is dying. Bye Bye!
Got it! My Bad!
readerOfTeaLeaves @ 189
i think KO has to use the pundits that MSNBC wants as the price for his “Comments”….. joe conason would be perfect as a pundit on KO or better an hour as KO is buffeted by hardball and scarborough plus that twerp tucker – wheres the balance there?
This is really important. Private philanthropy, laudable and useful as it can be, is no substitute for government action. It is far smaller in scale and influence. To believe otherwise, for Gates and anyone like him, is mere hubris.
Joe Conason @ 224
NPR is better than cable or network news, but as I became more media conscious, I realized that they often integrate into their narratives the same talking points as the regular media.
As for Soros, the recent Frontiline series on the media pointed out that media outlets like the LA Times are extremely profitable (around 20% on revenues) or twice what most Fortune 500 companies get. It was and is profitable. It is just that it is run by types who don’t know news but see their primary duty as delivering ever higher returns at no matter what price. Soros could invest and make money. That he doesn’t says something of his priorities.
RevDeb @ 21
RevDeb –
Thank you for providing the link. All I can say is “wow.” Ineffable.
Hugh @ 234
When he was here for book club, his issue seemed to be more that media involvement would be some kind of corrupting influence on him. He said nothing about profitability.
I know almost nothing about hedge funds or IPOs, but couldn’t we collectively get some media?
Joe Conason @
235
This is the fundamental issue. The government is the matrix. Who controls the government creates and recreates the matrix. As we can see.
So when the Republicans tell everyone the government is “bad” — it’s only because they want everyone else to run away from the government while they take it over.
I’ll have to sign off shortly — even though I’m on the road I have a lot of work to catch up on tonight. While I enjoyed this conversation a lot, I couldn’t help noticing that most of the questions and comments were not about It Can Happen Here. Which is fine of course because I’m here to talk about whatever – although I hope that you will read the book if you haven’t already, recommend it to your friends and family, and so on.
For those who would like to discuss the book in weeks to come, I will be dropping in fairly regularly at Salon Table Talk, where there is a thread devoted to the book under “White House.”
And I want to again thank my friends here at FDL. I consider their hospitality to be a great compliment.
Oh and for people in the Portland area – I will be speaking and signing books tomorrow evening at Powell’s bookstore. Thanks everyone for all your kindness and support!
Phoenix Woman @ 232
I am long retired, Phoenix Woman, and my parents, as well as my wife’s, passed away a considerable time ago.
I worry more about the children who have been fed propaganda for a a very long time and actually mouth many of the slogans heedlessly.
FDL performs a great service I think.
Best, Terry
i still feel progressive folk need a media outlet alongside of the blogosphere – not everyone has access to this particular medium – lots of people can be reached if we had some presence on tv or cable outlet to respond rapidly as wingers do – believe this deeply but i have no resources to pull this together – would that i could – for me its a no-brainer. oh well
Eli @ 238
Didn’t Soros make a lot his fortune in currency manipulations? And he’s worried about corrupting influences? Thanks for letting me know. That’s simply hilarious.
Thanks Joe and everyone, but I am fairly sure that Joe has to get back to work on writing this evening, because the Bushies are out there providing us with a target rich environment. And thank you to Jane and Christy for having me as well.
Joe Conason @ 241
i’ve just been lurking today, because i haven’t read your book yet. it’s on order now though… and i look forward to reading it. then i will certainly visit Salon Table Talk. many thanks for your work, and for your time here today.
Joe — Thank you so much for coming today. Lots of things to think further about and discuss — exactly what we always want in a book club. Truly, some wonderful stuff.
thanks joe for being here – ur book is on my purchase list!
Stirling, as always, thanks so much for all of your help on this — always a treat to have you here. :)
Let’s not forget the intermediary Republican administration that successfully bridged Nixon to Bush: Ronnie RayGun. These sleazy creeps have been around a long time and served RayGun as well as Nixon. Reaganites went a long way to refining the mistakes made by Nixon. Not correcting them. No. Learning more reliable ways to not get caught and manipulate whatever’s necessary to expand power and avoid prosecution. Iran Contra bears full witness to the adjustments made to commit crimes and get away with it. This is not by any means a participatory democracy. This is taxpayer subsidized organized crime.
Thanks Joe, keep ‘em coming, we’re all in it together.
Phoenix Woman @ 233:
I count more than one question ;-)
Are your parents or co-workers as well informed on current events as you? Chances are, they’re not.
Parents extremely well informed (and well traveled). As are their friends.
Co-workers: often more informed than I. I work ‘on the toobz’ so co-workers are not limited to Yankees. Co-workers know a hell of a lot more than I do about what’s going on around the planet. I learn a ton from them ;-)
—————
Why? Because chances are that their main (if not ONLY) news sources are still, in this Age of the Internet, drive-time radio and the evening TV news. Newspaper readership is dropping like a stone, so FOX reaches more people than the NYT.
You aren’t considering several factors:
1. How much do they trust their teevee news?
2. Many times, emails from friends carry more info content (and salience) than their teevee.
3. Parts of newspapers are dropping; other parts are not. Expect to see more amazing stuff like what the NYT did in comparing Bush’s 2006 State of the Union with previous years. As far as I’m concerned, the NYT is kicking butt with this example, and I hope they keep it up.
I think that the NYT is using XML — eXtensible markup language — for the SOTU feature, but I’ll spare you the borrrrrring techie details — just go look at what they’ve done because it’s amazing. (And I don’t work for any media outlet — I only watch stuff, but Joe’s chapter on Propaganda is fantastic.)
—————
Can you figure out a way to create and fund a news media that your parents and co-workers will heed? We’d like to hear it.
Gee, I’d love to have that magic wand ;-)
But look at how many clicks FDL receives, and Kos, and TPM Cafe. More people need to better understand issues related to their own workers rights and to health care. If I were investing, I’d put my $$ into union content, or other socially networked things (like churches).
Of the past 12 books that I’ve purchased, 4 came to my attention via blogs. So that’s an impact.
———————-
As for not picking on Gates and Buffett: Most of the problems they say they want to fight are direct or indirect results of US policy.
Must respectfully disagree. I could accept ‘many’, but I think this statement underestimates the amount of venalty in many, many places. (See “Blood Diamonds,” or other films to get a better sense of what I mean.) There are plenty of evil deeds and evil doers; however, for much of my life being an American was thought to represent laws, courts, education, thoughtfulness.
——————-
Media of the future won’t look like a teevee network. I’m not sure what it will look like, but I do believe that books like Joe’s will always make a difference.
And podcasts would help spread the news more easily.
readerOfTeaLeaves @ 251
At some point, this will probably be true. But I think it’s a ways off, and until then we are at a profound disadvantage.
unmask911 @ 250
I sure agree with the last comments but I think you are being very unfair to Carter and, especially, Clinton. Their contributions toward destroying liberalism were magnificent.
Best, Terry
Eli @ 254
Yes and no. The Libby trial did happen.
Joe did write an exceptional book. It is published. I bought a copy yesterday at a local shop that had several copies.
Barbara Comstock no longer ‘owns’ the news. Snowjob is a daily joke.
Compared with two years ago, what I see is miraculous. And Joe’s book suggests how we got into this mess, who got us here, and what needs a lot of focus.
It’s not hopeless. Every blogpost is one small miracle.
And yes, despite that fact that is corny, I really do believe that.
As is every blog comment.
And every rotten YouTube link that Eli has ever posted ;-)
They’re signs that people have “Had Enough” and are actively searching out alternatives.
Great, great book Mr. Conason.
Christy, — or anyone who knows — I just bought Joe Conason’s book through the link here. I also bought another book I had in my shopping basket, so I hope Firedoglake gets the credit for at least Joe’s book, but at best for both of them — does it work that way?
readerOfTeaLeaves @ 254
All well and good, but until, say, 60-70% of the American people are exposed to the complete story of what’s going on, the Republican zombies will keep coming back. Most of what you’re talking about is a small minority of die-hards like us, not the army of apathetic couch potatoes who decide elections.
and where are the young progressive parties? do young people even read papers or watch the news? as the mother of a young woman who only watches or listens to programs only when visiting me and i make sure to inform her of things political but she doesnt do it on her own…. i try but its a battle with ipods and having a good time….
Eli @ 257
Do Zell Miller and Joe Lieberman ring a bell for you?
Does even Rep. Obey’s shouting at “idiot liberals” tell you anything?
Zombies are bi-partisan.
Best, Terry
Hugh @ 245
I think it’s perhaps useful to distinguish between the corruption of the background deals, political manipulation and the usurpation of domestic civil institutions designed to serve the American people into personal piggy banks (all of the things Joe writes so eloquently about), that has characterized rethug politics for the last 6 years, and the mere concepts of free enterprise and globalization. Merely being a currency trader does not mean that one is party to the institutional corruption of the shrubco party apparatus. In fact, I would argue that the corruption that our present government is not capitalism at all.. but rather its capitalism’s cronyistic proto-fascist negation.
Sorry to have missed this.
Wanted to ask Joe his take on why the Republican party is so full of male hustlers.
Blub @ 261 — great comment, IMHO. Agree — and also agree that Joe’s book helps people understand exactly the differences you mention.
Eli, I know some very, very conservative (even evangelical) folks and I’ve been absolutely fascinated to watch their reactions the past 2 years. They may not come to blogs, but they’re not stupid.
Many have served in the military and that whole Walter Reed story is blowing some minds and raising a whole lot of simmering indignation. They felt alienated and ‘talked down to’ by ‘lefties’ and ‘liberals’ back in the 90s, but they’re catching on. They know more about what’s going on with veteran’s affairs than most who comment here. You can pull a lot of sh*t with the American public, but you can’t treat vets like dirt.
Some feel like idiots as they realize that the people they supported are criminals who lied to them. And that Ann Coulter, who they thought spoke on their behalf, is a venomous wretch — they almost shudder at her name these days.
So the wheel is turning. O’Reilly’s numbers are down; KO’s are up. When the Daily Show is where millions of people get their info, you gotta figure something’s up.
A minor point, not sure if anyone else mentioned it since I got here late.
“third largest state in the Union”
I thought Texas was the second largest state, after Alaska. As a Texan I might be biased.
Cheers
the way JOe explains it seems that the “new” government by the bushies much resembles the Saudis, who have reigned/governed on whim,and no constitution. And this is what our troops are supposedly dying to bring to the middle East?DEMOCRACY AND A CONSTITUTION?
God help us.
Sounds like a great book Joe, you’re easy on the eyes too! ;)
John @ 264
By population, it’s California, Texas, NY, Florida.
By area, it’s Alaska, Texas, California, Montana.
ANYBODY HAVE A link to Barbara Comstock’s picture?
I have no idea what she looks like, except what I heard at the (EXCEPTIONAL) fdl blog trial comments that she needs to work on her roots!
Is that why Halliburton is moving its CEO to Dubai? This really is an unbelievable move.. that the most corrupt corporate beneficiary of shrubco’s cronyism (and probably the outright theft of billions in Iraqi reconstruction contract funds) finds Dubai, an anti-democratic klepto-plutocracy governed by a near-absolute monarch, a more favorable operating environment than the USA. This move alone confirms any and all of our suspicions about shrubco.
There was a boardgame in the eighties where one got to play the dictator of a banana republic, where the object of the game was to acquire control of all branches of the government so that one could happily loot the treasury and ship it to overseas bank accounts. I guess this is my country now.
Linda @ 265
John @ 262
You are correct, I was befuddled momentarily.
Excellent post. My sincerest compliments.
With all due respect to Joe Conason (and Stirling Newberry) there are people powered movements of many kinds that demonstrate the shallowness of much partisan politics.
The challenge to Microsoft by the ultimate in people power is a wonder like no other. Reputed geek Bill Gates has been rather a superb monopolist. The penance Gates is serving is absolutely magnificent and outshines the good works by Jimmy Carter for his atrocious governance as president.
The other night I went to a very small organization meeting for Barack Obama. There were the usual college students, an aging fan of Barry Goldwater, a delightful inter-racial (gawd I hate that term) couple that is hosting a fundraising party later, a very nice anti-environmenatlist Sierra Club leader, a candidate-shopping doctor’s wife and we two ghosts from Eugene McCarthy’s Children’s Crusade among others.
I can’t imagine this is remotely like a Hillary Clinton rally, except for ladies that think Mrs. Bill Clinton represents them.
Seemed Obama’s eloquence attracted most. (We have never heard him speak except for very brief glimpses. Always out of things.)
The Bush’s and Karl Rove and Alberto Gonzales are history. The fossils left on the Supreme Court will be a pain for decades ahead but more a nuisance I think than otherwise.
Seem to me to be lots of pitchforks around.
I don’t know if Obama will live up to his promise, can’t be certain he will beat Hillary and the dinosaurs, don’t know there aren’t better but I like what I see for now.
Folks might want to look to the future a bit more but it is helpful to have a clear picture of the past. Not so sure Joe Conason has that but that is best decided by my betters here and elsewhere.
Best, Terry
fourlegsgood @ 211
If a whole bunch of people chip in, isn’t that public funding?
I keep checking my pants for residue. I am scared about this president.
I hope I’m not too late here, but I’d like to hear what our distinguished panelists think we should do about the inherent advantage of the Executive over the Legislature and Judiciary due to TIME factors– not the magazine, but the calendar. The Executive can act quite quickly. Congress acts much more slowly, because it must propose legislation, have hearings, conduct votes, pass both houses of Congress, get signed by the Pres., etc., and the Courts can take even longer. The Republicans have taken great advantage of this, contemptuously taunting Democrats with disparaging comments about letting them stage protests and write books, while the Republicans take charge and DO things. As someone used to say, possession is nine tenths of the law. Ariel Sharon used this principal to create “facts on the ground” that could be used to shape the outcome. This is exactly what the White House has done for 6 years. I don’t think our founding fathers anticipated how much the executive (unitary or otherwise) could do before Congress or the Courts could act.
How can we deal with that?
Bob in HI
Buckeye Hamburger @
138
A very important question. With respect to the last question, Chris Dodd is about the only candidate who has made restoring the US Constitution a top priority.
Bob in HI
Joe Conason @
89
Actually, I suspect that if it comes to America, it will look very American. Very slick. Multi-layered defense in depth against truth. It won’t look ominous. It will look cool. The ominousness will be between the lines and shimmering at the edges.
Cool2it @
98
Hitler first came to prominence at the head of group well-known (in those days) to be associated with the Frei Korp, soldiers released from the German military who served as counter-revolutionary death squads. For years, before Hitler became chancellor Nazis marched regularly in the streets publically beating up their enemies. They were worse than the KKK in the South in the 60s. Much worse.
Yes, Hitler came to power through (barely) constitutional means, but it was no great surprise what came next. There was no great effort to hide it. And when they abolished the Weimar Republic, they were pretty out front and in your face about it.
Authoritarianism in the US would proclaim itself pro-democracy and pro-liberty.
watertiger @
107
Late to the Chat, Joe.
Nixon’s endowment/support was from the heydays of SOCAL. Standard Petroleum now runs foreign policy through Condi. Bastard children of Rockefeller republicans. The same money ran the Arkansas machine that Clinton eventually was successor of…
Not to say Bill did not have merit, but everything has to be seen in context.
As for the Unitary Executive, it’s shaped around the Vice President, whose limitations are not expressly stated and some of whose duties border Legislative territory. The original POTUS often had a Vice President who placed second on the vote count and was his main rival. There’s perhaps long standing precedent to their vision, though it is overshadowed by Amendments Nine and Fourteen in real practice.
Powers not granted by word lie in the domain of the States, or persons. Individuals hold rights past that, to the extent an officeholder has rights he so cedes some of those to his Oath to serve, most notably to uphold the Constitution on behalf of others.
Michael Sheldon Cheney was the first ever director of PR for ARAMCO. The Arabian-American Oil Co. was a partnership nonprofit comprised of SOCAL and Standard New Jersey(Exxon) it worked to secure western capital to secure resources on the Arab peninsula. Cheney petitioned Roosevelt to set the forebear of the Trans Arabian Pipeline, the Trans Arabian Railroad. This during the second world war Lend Lease era.
Richard Halliburton lived near Memphis, flew bombers for RAF from Cyprus to protect English oil interests, and gave Iraq’s first King Faisal aerial tours to view surface topography and likely future oil claims.
He also toured Mesopotamia. He was a celebrated icon in social circuit who died before his time.
His next door neighbors growing up were the Tutwilers. Thomas Tutwiler was a revolutionary figure in the oil industry, and the Halliburtons helped develop a cement process used to increase flow pressure from oil wells commonly known as ‘mudholing.’
The Tutwiler family developed patented slant drill head technology that was the motivator for Saddam’s original invasion of Kuwait. Kuwait tapped oil fields in Iraq whilst Saddam was enamored with the Iran/Iraq war.
At the time Marge Tutwiler was Undersec. of State for James Baker. She went on to be the director of communications for Iraq’s provisional authority. She went on to become Vice President of the NYSE. A family member of hers is named as one of the Vice President’s Staff at the Senate office of the Vice President.
Halliburton is headquartered in Dubai now? What of the Bahamas and Cayman Islands? Cheney going to Dubai seals the ports deal, no doubt. For tax reasons he has not been technically headquartered anywhere near an American tax bracket.
The Cheney name is no stranger to Saud policy. Michael Sheldon Cheney lived in Saudi Arabia for years directing ARAMCO PR whilst setting up a small city for oil workers to populate, until the Sauds could maintain infrastructure in their own right.
The King of Arabia met Richard Halliburton outside Mecca. He was the closest non muslim to ever get within 20 miles of the city. The King hosted him there with a royal attachment of servants.
Now their money moves back to Dubai. A country ceded from Iran illegally. This is symbolic because it is an affront to the sensitivities of both Persian and Arab sovereignty. It foreshadows the much anticipated Iran war.
Nixon didn’t have Diebold to win his wars, he had a compliant media and did dirty work to undermine the Democrats. McGovern remains an American Profile in Courage, in comparison.
As for the church issue, the PR engines that move their votes and mindset and generate tax shelters is an affront to the establishment clause.
There’s a solution. Establish your own religion. Claim your property as worship place and render it nontaxable. If they don’t have to pay taxes you don’t. Sue the IRS in class actions. Claim equal protection. Something will have to give. Pay your taxes then sue for the difference, plus interest.
There’s no limit to religion. Worship the moment. Worship human rights. Worship free speech. Thomas Paine did.
bravo
Regarding 208 above,
I just looked at that http://nprcheck.blogspot.com/
Sorry, I can’t read it. I do not go back to a site with white lettering on a black background. One try and not only are they off my list, I advise others not to go there.
As I am doing now. Don’t bother. Whatever they write isn’t worth the hassle of their unreadability.