
(Please welcome pastordan from Street Prophets for this guest post. Thanks, Dan! – Pach)
One of the most frustrating aspects of the conversation on religion and politics in today's climate is that the discussion often seems to be about "people of faith" rather than with them.
Barack Obama's candidacy puts this frustration in sharp relief, I think. All the plausible contenders for the Democratic nomination are practicing Christians, though they vary widely in how much emphasis they place on their faith. But Obama is the most open of them and as such, he poses a tremendous threat to the GOP "values" machine.
All of which is not hold him up as a model progressive candidate necessarily. He's just going to be a target because he challenges a key perceived strength for conservatives.
So they attack: first, they question the authenticity of his faith. Then they question its legitimacy by trying to portray it as out of the mainstream. (Obama, to his discredit, caved in a bit to this attack by trying to distance himself from Jeremiah Wright, his allegedly "radical" pastor.) Even the recent insinuations of sleaze used against Obama can feed into this attack. If he's "dirty," why then he's not so Christian after all, now is he?
The interesting thing about the two specifically faith-based charges is how little they actually had to do with, you know, faith. The madrassa hit-piece was just that: a nasty little lie that will live on in freeper compounds for years to come. The extremist-church theme was set out in interviews between Tucker Carlson and two political operatives, and Sean Hannity and an Alan Keyes-style blogger. The sum total of the qualifications for discussing the religious character of Trinity United Church of Christ (they couldn't even get the name right) was essentially "I've been to church" and in the case of Hannity's blogger, "I'm a black guy." Had anyone bothered to consult with someone who actually knew something about the religions in question, these stories would have quickly collapsed. As it was, Carlson and Hannity wound up looking like nitwits when the transparently false allegations were swatted down. In fact, Hannity made the mistake of actually talking to Jeremiah Wright, and promptly had his ass served to him.
It's disturbing that secular political hacks are allowed to define my religion (Obama and I are from the same denomination). Even more pernicious are the people like James Dobson or William Donohue who are given leeway to represent themselves as religious leaders when in fact they're nothing more than Republican party activists. This is a consistent pattern in the media: Dobson is not ordained, and to my knowledge, plays no greater role in the life of a congregation than simply showing up. Ditto Donohue. Many of the other "religious leaders" who get their mugs on television with alarming regularity are hardly any better. Pat Robertson gave up his ministerial credentials long ago to run for president. Jerry Falwell hasn't been a pastor in any meaningful sense in decades. Albert Mohler and Richard Land from the Southern Baptist Convention have a little more credibility – Mohler heads a Baptist seminary and Land works for the denomination. Even Jim Wallis, God bless him, has always been more of a writer and editor than a primary religious leader.
So we wind up talking about these mysterious "people of faith" rather than to them directly. Rev. Wright had a direct succinct answer to Sean Hannity: our congregation's values are directed at addressing the specific needs of our community, and if you don't understand that, you're an ignoramus. Had anyone spoken to the average person-in-the-pew, they might have talked about the ministry of Trinity, what it's done to transform its neighborhood. Or they might have spoken to someone from the Islamic schools Obama attended in Indonesia and found out they weren't so radical after all. Indeed that person probably wouldn't have much sympathy for Muslim extremists.
But of course such an interview wouldn't have scored the requisite political points.
The GOP depends on a simple narrative to keep its conservative Christian base in orbit: liberals hate faith, and they hate "people of faith." If it should come out that Democrats and Republicans actually look pretty similar in terms of religious representation, the narrative collapses. At that point, the vaunted "What's Wrong With Kansas?" hypothesis might kick in, and Republicans could lose "values voters" who begin to realize that their economic interests aren't being represented. It's quite a bit more complex than that, of course, but still. Losing control of the religion narrative could put a nasty little dent in the GOP machine.
You might expect, then, that I'd argue the "Dems should be friendlier to people of faith" line. But I actually disagree with that almost completely.
For one thing, it only reinforces a negative stereotype. Even if I believed that Democrats were hostile to people of faith, which I don't, I wouldn't talk about it in public. Why give a cheap shot free publicity?
Truth is, we have many wonderful religious people in the party. We should celebrate them and their presence with us. Though I make no endorsement of him, Obama is a good model. His faith is important to him, and so he talks about it. Jonathan Edwards' religion, by contrast, isn't front-and-center in the same way, and so he doesn't talk about it as much. That's great too. (Hillary, typically, is sincere and dedicated and absolutely hopeless at conveying that in anything resembling genuineness. That's bad.)
More important than the candidates, though, we need to push forward the experiences and beliefs of the average people. We need more pastors on television, fewer hacks with transparent agendas. (Not me. I'm ugly as a troll and twice as stupid.) Better yet, we need average, rank-and-file Democrats talking about their faith, their families, and their communities. A brief documentary interviewing delegates to Dem conventions around the country would do the trick marvelously. However we do it, we need to push our own very simple message: Democrats aren't so scary. They're people just like you.
For that reason, we need to push the flip side of the equation. Who else is not heard in the conversation on religion? Correct: atheists and secular folk.
Obama has done a great job of speaking as a person of faith from his tradition. He has done a much poorer job of representing Democrats who did not share his faith. He can come across as speaking to them, rather than with them. Many atheists I know think he was a scold in his speech at Wallis' Call to Renewal convention. Can't say that I blame them. The price of his failure to speak to atheists and secularists was an unnecessary and costly political battle. Nine months after the speech, Obama's only now making up ground with some folks, and others have written him off altogether.
In a sense, Democrats need to celebrate all people of faith – including those who have no faith.1 Speaking personally, though I may not agree with the assumptions of atheism – I really am a pastor – I can honor its passion, its thirst for justice and equity, and its ethical integrity. It's true that there are some really unpleasant atheists out there in the blogosphere. But you know what? There are some real a-hole Christians as well. "Everybody talking about heaven ain't going there," as the spiritual says.
I don't believe I'm the only person of faith with those opinions. Our society is becoming a more secular place, and despite the loudest voices heard in the media, most Christians are learning to live with it. It will be very difficult for atheists and secularists to raise their poll numbers above the levels typically seen by various forms of pond sludge, but it can be done. It's going to take some very brave people willing to go public about their beliefs – and many more to back them up whether or not they share those beliefs.
But when it really gets down to it, the great strength of the Democratic party is its diversity. We represent a much broader portion of society than the Republicans, on religious issues as on many others. That leads to many, many conversations pleasant enough to make you long for the days when drilling a hole in your own skull wasn't illegal. But it also leads to many conversations where ordinary people talk to one another across the highest of fences only to discover that they have far more in common than they ever imagined.
I don't know about you, but I've always thought that's what Democrats were all about. We are not a creedal organization, but one whose members are joined together by common cause. I hope and I pray then that we are able to sit down and talk with one another, for our own good, and the good of the nation.
1I realize that some people find calling atheism a "faith" insulting. I mean it only in the sense of a coherent worldview structuring moral beliefs, not in the sense that atheists hold a "positive belief" in the absence of God. I have a hard enough time defining my own faith, let alone somebody else's.



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Fitz!
pastordan!
FDL!
Thanks to Pach, Jane, and Christy for giving me the opportunity to be with you all tonight.
I keep wanting to mention this to somebody: I live near the city of Fond du Lac, Wisconsin. So everytime we go to the mall it’s the FDL mall, FDL post office, FDL city hall, etc., etc. It certainly keeps me mindful of this community and its beautiful, beautiful front pagers.
pastordan @ 2
why yes, many of us are Fond of the Lake.
(OT – how did a place get to be named Bottom of the Lake, anyway?)
This is Wisconsin. I’m assuming alcohol was involved in one way or another.
Aloha
Pastordan, thank you – this is a great post, and very insightful.
Yes, and God bless Wallis for next Friday holding a protest worship service at the Washington Cathedral and then a march to the White House with civil disobedience as the coda for the day!
where are my manners?…welcome to this Lake, pastordan.
Welcome to the Lake, pastordan
[[[[and welcome to the epu’d group hug]]]]
Good zeds to you!
Thank you, punaise.
Mimi, I’m not up on all my protests anymore. Is Wallis going to get himself arrested again?
My faith is personal and private. I practice it everyday and it shows in actions.
My theory is that Repugs/Neo-cons/wingers have a fixed world view…. no matter what their view, it is solid concrete but to keep that world view they Must adjust their facts and their values.
Progressives/Liberals/Left use solid facts and their foundational values to create their world view.
This is the big difference and why their use of “values” ring hollow and they sell their morals to maintain an unsustainable world view.
My thoughts are, on this matter of religion, and particularly Christianity, is that if one fulfills an “inner voice” to practice the ‘golden rules’, the requirements are met for ‘grace’. But. And here it is. One must be intrinsically propelled and perhaps compelled to practice the golden rule. Not out of a sense of some sort of heavenly gain, but born of a need to provide compassion, empathy, fairness, and justice for those needing a hand-up. I am sounding maybe a bit sanctimonious. No?
Great post pastordan!
I was raised Catholic but haven’t practiced in decades do to disagreements I have with the church leadership. I appreciate greatly the work done by many of the rank and file especially in the area of social justice. There are many other groups doing what the Sermon on the Mount teaches. There are good people in all faiths but unfortunately we tend to lump them in with villians to obtain political goals.
Thanks for this thought-provoking post, and welcome to FDL pastordan.
I’ve read your commentary, though I have to admit I have not absorbed all of it.
I can’t say I am an aethist, more of an agnostic. But, I do have my own brand of faith, even though it is not officially sanctioned. What I most object to is the “my Faith is the true and correct Faith” attitude that I see so often coming into the discussion when ever faith is talked about. Just my own point of view- not a commentary one way or the other on what you’ve said. Just the particular bell that rang, reading your post.
I certainly understand your meaning here pastordan, but I do think we need to move away from this sort of branding. It is dangerous, imho. As is the “GWOT” and “Islamofascism”, Insurgency, etc.
A madrassa is, most times. nothing more than a theological seminary or school. That is all that it really was and is. As in most faiths, all teachings and beliefs can be taken to an extreme by those who would use them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrasah
{{{Egregious}}}, if you are still around, I left you a message down below.
I love Fond du Lac. Not because I’ve been there, but because my bestest friend ever, Dave, was from this place. Dave passed away a few years ago. But somehow, or another, I think he’s in Fond du Lac.
I have no interest in religion, and I’d be perfectly happy if no politician ever mentioned it again.
OkK:
You must be a Lutheran. ;^)
That’s actually a fair assessment of Paul’s doctrine of “salvation by faith.” It’s much-distorted these days, but the basic idea is that faith changes one in such a way that produces good works, rather than those works somehow earning one enough Merit Badges to get into heaven.
The Jewish theology is very similar: God sets up right and wrong ways to relate to one another. When you’re living in right relationship with other people, you do the work of justice and compassion, and you get along with God. If you’re not, well, then not.
This is one of those areas where most of my atheist friends think it’s really pointless to argue. You do good things because you think God wants you to; I do them because they’re just the right thing to do. Now, can we get back to work?
pastordan @ 19
DING! works for (non-religious) me.
I work in Russia to save lives because I am a Christian. When interviewed on their tv news programs I say I am a Christian like their Pravoslav/Orthodox. I can hardly believe a tv editor let that go on the air in 1998.
A member of the powers that be said in 2000 that “you push us” to pay attention to the sick children in the hospital. They followed that up with an investment of several million dollars to improve the facilities.
People at the highest levels of the government thanked us in summer 2001. It proved useful in the government vote after 9/11. Pro US: 2 including the one who thanked us for helping their children. Anti US: 18. Apparently 2 plus the president was a majority.
A person can do all this and yet be sick with concern about the destiny of our country. It is possible to be a Christian and a patriot and someone who actually looks at the facts.
I was going to save this for my memoirs some years hence but it seems pertinent.
GOD HELP US. GOD SAVE US.
Valley Girl:
I know what you mean. It’s extraordinarily difficult to speak adequately about faith in this nation, if for no other reason than there’s so many of them. What winds up happening is exactly what you see in this piece: it gets resolved down to Christianity and not-Christianity, which is really inadequate.
As for certainty or superiority, most faithful people are convinced that they’re on the right path. That’s why they’re on that path. And again, it gets very difficult to talk about these issues if you’re stopping after every sentence to say, “but I could be wrong.” Were the discussion not so poisoned, we might be better able to converse without needing to hear those four little words–because we’d be able to hear them as implicit in what people say.
I am of the opinion that most people who talk of faith, and do not do so for a living, are generally talking out of thir hat or somewhere lower.
That goes for politicians.
Deeds speak louder than words.
Welcome to the Lake PastorDan. I agree completely with your comment @19. Let’s not argue about faith – too many wars have been based on that argument – instead let’s get out there and do some good, for whatever reason.
I get leery when anyone proclaims how faithful they are, to me it’s a red flag saying “Don’t pay any attention to the greedy hateful things I do.” (Is that too mixed a metaphor?)
Woodhall Hollow @ 16
Hi. Thank you for your explanation. If you have spent much time at fdl you might observe that I can occasionally be a hothead. I attribute it to either being a redhead or being bipolar/adhd/ocd, take yr choice.
After rereading wt you wrote, I see wt you mean and apparently I jumped to conclusions not for the first time. Forgive me.
I am experiencing trouble with our Russian work, my last trip involved hideous obstacles [excuse me “Evaluating Available Options”] and I am struggling with why this is a good thing to spend my energy on. A little bit edgy and not anything to do with your very kind post.
I’m sorry.
pastordan @ 19
If truth were told I’d have to ‘confess’ to being Catholic. But Lutheran is close enough. But any religion will do if that religion espouses a philosophy of “do unto others, as you would have them do unto you”. ;0)
I try and keep it simple: It is not what you believe but what you do and how you treat others and the world around you.
egregious @ 25
As a full on hot-head red head myself, I “get it”! No apologies necessary. And I am in awe of your russian work.
AZ Matt @ 27
Well said, and I completely agree.
I don’t care about faith and other people’s faith. I care about justice and human rights.
People should practice their religion out of sight as far as I am concerned. I find religion and discussions of religion and faith intrusive and basically a private and personal matter and have no place in politics.
What I do see is that people of “faith” are fighting, killing, arguing and acting in ways which are at best off putting… and doing it in the name of their “god”.
Yet there are some people of “faith” that are not obnoxious and in your face with their self absorbed entitlement and they are getting painted with a broad brush.
The odd thing about religions is that some expect that they be respected and left alone to believe that their religion is THE way. Few religious people it seems are actively demanding that everyone else follow their belief system…. But how can each religion be THE way? It makes no sense.
So in the end it is all about “faith” and choosing to believe in some unprovable notions and joining a club of others who subscribe to the same collection of myths and rituals.
Frankly, I can’t be bothered as there are other things which seem more pressing for my thoughts and actions than contemplating how to get to heaven… a place which does not exist as far as I can tell.
If god exists… he certainly made lots of mistakes. GWB is one obvious example.
This post reminds me, tangentially at least, of something I wrote last week about the inadequacy of labels.
pastordan @ 22
Thanks for your response pastordan. I perhaps was too abbreviated when I said “What I most object to is the “my Faith is the true and correct Faith” attitude that I see so often coming into the discussion when ever faith is talked about.” The part I really have trouble with is the part that comes after (which I didn’t articulate before) and that is “and It should be Your Faith also, otherwise…”
Let me throw this out for discussion, knowing it will get a variety of responses: is it okay for a politician to talk about their faith as a way of describing themselves? Not saying “God says we should do this” or “Good Christians should always do that,” but just “This is who I am, and where I’m coming from?”
Welcome to the LAke!
As you can see he water id fine.
Woodhall Hollow – If you are here, I took my best stab at answering your last question to me; its @236 on the last thread.
Woodhall Hollow—
Thank you for your kindness.
I am able to carry on with my work because of the love and support of a great many people, including those I have never met, but who provide support in many forms.
Many thousands of children in eastern Europe and Asia are alive because of the kindness and support of people such as yourself.
Tens of thousands of parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles, friends are happy because of the life saved of a child very precious to them.
I thank you on their behalf.
—————————egregious
pastorDan@33
No
Politicians should not speak of faith, their religion or anything close to it.
Religion and faith are not a litmus test for being a good person and especially a politician… who usually is lying and parsing his words. Once they step into that arena… they have lost me.
Leave god in the their private prayers and in their church. I don’t want to hear it and I am turned off when I do.
pastordan @ 33
Well how about people like me who are severely mentally ill but still trying to serve God with all our heart/soul/what’s left of our mind??
That’s just fine with me, pastordan @ 33 since I respect and have studied all faiths, but who/what the candidates believe in/don’t believe in religiously will never prompt me to vote for them one way or another unless they live, breathe, and walk the Golden Rule.
For everybody.
Pastordan, sure – I’m always interested in learning about people and where they are coming from. I want to know about politicians so I can evaluate them. And if he or she wants to share their religious background but not beat us over the head with it, that is fine with me.
See my comment above.
Deeds count, words do not.
If asked why I do what I do, I will answer,
If my motivations are unclear, I will answer.
Absent being asked, I find spoken evangelism suspect.
In politicians and in others.
I have tremendous respect for those who live their faith.
Egregious is a good example.
pastordan @ 33
One of the basic problems in so far as I view ‘things’, is the so called “Doctrine of Original Sin”. Sometimes it seems that conservatives believe we were born with it (original sin), and liberals do not. I happen to be a radical liberal.
pastordan @ 33
I don’t have a problem with that, if it’s sincere. Too often, however, it seems that politicians feel the need to trumpet their faith for fear of being labeled faithless (the kiss of death in American politics).
angie @ 39
GWB seems to walk the Golden Rule really well for his sponsors. He rules and they get the gold.
AZ Matt @ 44
yep.
(he’s the poster child for hypocrisy)
This is a fabulous post Pastor Dan!
One of my favorite journalists is Bill Moyers. He recently put together a fantastic series called “On Faith and Reason” — all of which is available for viewing on the web.
All of the interviews are fabulous, but in terms of Christianity, I particularly recomend the one with Sir John Houghton. He has had a tremendous influence on Richard Cizik, who has been a major force behind the concept of Creation Care.
My personal feeling is that this is a major breakthrough, and for this reason it is very important for Democrats and Progressives to continue to work to find common ground, particularly in the realms of social and economic justice.
egregious @ 38
egregious-I’m not quite sure of your point, but from one bipolar to another, I salute you.
pastordan @ 33
Well, I’m probably not the one to answer–I imagine you can guess what I’m going to say. But I’m going to anyway. ;) I think expecting someone to “closet” an important aspect of who they are would be the opposite of “progressive”. I think we need to be sensitive to our audience.
But like I say to the kids all the time, people need to be careful not to bother/annoy, but at the same time be careful not to be too easily annoyed. We’re all responsible for doing both.
PD, We have to stop meeting like this!
angie @ 15
I have been to Indonesia and I really don’t think that the school that Obama attended was a madrassah. The photograph of Obama attending that school shows the girls and boys together in the classrooms and the boys and girls in decidedly secular attire. While it may have been a predominantly Muslim school…given that 98% of Javanese are Muslims that would have been almost a certainty…
and had accomodations for its students to pray, I doubt that much theology was taught there.
One has to realize that the public school system in Indonesia largely emerged from Islamic madrassahs…
just as they did from semi-religious roots in the US. There were few Christian schools simply because there was very little effort by the Dutch colonialists to convert Indonesians. A few German Lutheran pastors undertook efforts in North Sumatra and Borneo, along with some French Catholic groups (who were actually most sucessful with Chinese immigrants). But by 1950’s and 1960’s there was a big effort to secularize the schools and build them on the pan-ethnic/multi-religious “Nationalist” foundation of “pancasila”. Today the kids in these schools wear uniforms, usually slacks or shorts for the lads with white shirt…girls with a long midi style skirt and white blouse. Some of the girls will wear headscarfs, and the boys may wear caps.
In the 1960’s real formal all-boys boarding-school madrassahs emerged for strictly religious training, usually for a year. These were established by progressive Islamic groups unaffiliated with the Wahabbist movements of Arabia. They would teach an integrated way of Islam with modern thought. One was more complementary with older Sufi traditions (adat) and the other was more modernist and anti-superstitious. The radical Wahabbist sorts of schools only came in with the influx of Saudi oil money and teachers in the 1980’s and usually were restricted to rural areas. They are still very few and far between and under close scrutiny.
To characterize the average Indonesia school as being at all like these (or the madrassahs of Pakistan) would be akin to saying that US Public schools are identical to a home-school run by a promulgator of the racist rhetoric of an Identity Church or run by radical Afro-Centrists.
But these were definitely NOT the type of school that Obama attended.
It’s what you do, not what you say. Words and definitions are nothing but empty propoganda and used as political manipulation, and it is true that religion is the opiate of the people.
Caldonia @ 49
Hey, chica – have the dogwoods budded yet?
I have to think if one cares for peace, for the children, the sick, the meek, the weak, the poor and the hungry, and for Mother Earth, one will be okay.
Pastor Dan says:
Actually, atheism has nothing to do with morality. One could be an atheist and have no grasp of morality. By definition an atheist does not believe that morality comes from God.
You may be talking of a subclass of “moral atheists” who could believe and embrace a natural definition of morality that does not depend upon supernatural enforcement.
cinnamonape @ 50 — I should have said “‘madrassa’ story”, actually. You’re quite right that Obama never attended a madrassa (I don’t recall the proper term off the top of my head). I meant to use the term as a name for the story, not to buy into the smear itself.
Oops.
What I hate are self-rightious SOB’s who think they know what God intends(The only to know what is in God’s mind is to be God) and to me this article from the Raw Story illustrates the self delusion of some religious leaders.
http://www.rawstory.com/showar…..-original/
This fool thinks he can be a god.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 53
Yes! The sooner people realize or remember that the earth “produced” us, the better. Maybe then we’ll stop the crime of abusing our mother!!
MonkeyBoy–follow the link and read the James Fowler quote, if you haven’t. That’s what I was referring to.
bmaz @ 35
Thanks and I have now responded!
Have you seen Bono’s speech upon receiving the NAACP Chairman’s Award?
Pastordan,
Delurking to say I’m sure you mean John Edwards in the paragraph beginning “Truth is . . .” since Jonathan has been gone 250 years and most certainly talked emphatically about his faith.
Thanks for your assessment.
I don’t have a problem with politicians who talk about their faith as a way of explaining themselves and the way they think. I know that if I try to explain myself, I will cite writers from ancient times to the present. I will expect that the listener will be able to follow along and see the basis for much of what I think and the way I can be expected to act.
Thoughtful religious people will do the same, and have the right to expect that I will be able to follow their thinking and use it as a basis to predict their behavior.
In both cases, however, actions speak louder than words. It is always safer to base judgments of future actions on prior behavior, rather than on words. Too many people don’t follow that rule, and lately, most of them are on the right.
What do you say about a pedophile priest like, Roger Mahoney?
pastordan @
33
As a self-descriptor? Of course. But never as a stand-alone stratagem for personal hierarchal mobility.
In other unrelated matters, one might take advice from those who can dance in a superior fashion.
;>)
Pastordan,
Speaking of faith ‘n’ politics, did you get my e-mail a few days ago re: some plans for YearlyKos? Dunno how much e-mail you get at your streetprophets address, so it might have gotten lost in the crush.
(Sorry all for the cryptic communique.)
hyperbolic pants explosion
Perhaps just a drive by, as dinner is simmerring . . . Good to see you here at the Lake, PastorDan! Of course, given the comments thus far, it’s obvious that dinner isn’t the only thing simmering.
“This is who I am, and where I’m coming from,” is a great statement/question, regardless of whether we’re talking about one’s educational background, immigrant status, work history, or anything else. Even so, religion seems to grab us all by the throat, regardless of our particular beliefs, because all too often, the public perception of the statement carries with it the phrase “and you should be like this too.” Any thoughts on how progressives, especially progressive politicians, get past that unspoken attached phrase?
Isn’t called Fond du Lac because it’s at the south end of the lake? (i.e., at the foot of the lake).
What about Roger Mahoney?
Oklahoma kiddo @
12
No. You need never apologize for speaking out for a virtuous life.
what masaccio said.
pastordan, thank you for opening this discussion.
i so look forward to the day when liberals/progressives/activists embrace the religious tradition of social change in the service of human rights.
i hear science and medicine are all bad (or all good) – both seem absurdly reductionist views.
as religion and religious belief are inextrictably linked with written history, i can find religion associated with great evil and powerful good.
oddly enough, just like the human believers.
religious values are so powerful…and so many of the values (although not all) are progressive……
i’m always happy to see progressives drawing on these powerful resonances in service of social good.
and the strongest coalitions i’ve seen in the US respect and include religious tolerance….
while insisting on shared values in the coalitions’ actions.
I am amazed by Mohler’s admission that homosexuality is genetic. That sort of shoots the whole “lifestyle choice” argument right in the heart, doesn’t it.
And pastordan, I hope Wallis doesn’t expect everyone who attends the peace rally to get arrested! We’re taking our kids and don’t want that kind of experience for them to blab to their Republican grandparents!
Whatever happened to Jesus saying people should pray in a closet, away from everyone else? I think this says it all. Is it saying humans should never pray in church? No. Is it saying that humans shouldn’t use religion or faith to make their points, by talking about religion? Yes.
In America, of all places, your religion should not be front and center, except in your deeds. YE SHALL BE KNOWN BY YOUR DEEDS. Why yap about religion, per se?
pastordan:
Beautiful.
On no other blog have I seen such cogent and thoughtful – umm – wermons even when I disagreed.
With this I do most vehemently, while accepting the logic of the argument as flawless:
From The Devil’s Dictionary:
Best, Terry
Roger Mahoney wasn’t a pedophile priest. He moved one around without removing him from office.
What’s that have to do with Pastor Dan’s post?
PastorDan, welcome to the Lake!
I am a former pastoral studies major who consequently left my fundamentalist church. I sometimes wonder if the politicians and others who feel the necessity to thump their Bibles (and twist the words inside for their own ends) have even read them. They may read, but they don’t comprehend.
I am tired of politicians that play “the God card”. Whether we practice a faith or not, we know right from wrong, and we should act in that knowledge. We can believe, or choose not to. It’s one of the greatest strengths of our nation. To position oneself (as many on the other side of the aisle do,) as a person of faith who doesn’t bother to live by the tenets of that faith in their daily lives is laughable.
The true faith is what we do with our lives. Do we leave our world a better place than we found it? Do we fight for social justice? Do we defend the defenseless? Do we do the right thing, not just the expedient thing?
I realize that religious faith shapes and molds the personalities of those who practice that faith. At the same time, “this is where I’m coming from” is so much more than faith.
IMHO, YMMV, again, welcome to the Lake.
Julie
Good point, momly — if the geneticists can fix the gay, it ain’t really a choice. heh
To paraphrase an oldie from Emerson: “The louder he proclaimed for the Lord, the faster we counted our spoons.”
I’m with Atrios on this one, I think we are on a slippery slope when we start to examine the content of a politician’s faith. When you define yourself in whole or in part by what you hold to be your faith, you open yourself to the question– “What is it exactly that you believe, what are the tenets of your creed?”
Grace is applicable only if one accepts the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus and belives on him for the forgiveness of his/her sin of unbelief in him. That’s just for starters.
Just one priest? You must not live in the L.A. area. Was he practicing his faith in doing so? That’s what’s so relevant.
Today I got to shake Obama’s hand. I was late to his talk in Dubuque because I couldn’t pull myself away from the Lake and the movie discussion. Anyway….the fire marshals wouldn’t allow anymore people in since it was full….he came out to the 50 of us who didn’t get in even though we had tickets to thank us for coming out and to let us know that he would be coming back again, even though the novelty of his appearance would have probably worn off by then.
He was wonderful, so real, so considerate, his staff brought us cold drinks, girl scout cookies and pretzels. So it turned out to be a great place to be.
Pastor Dan, I’m a christian and much of what I do as a progressive democrat is based on my religious leanings. I’m sick of the evangelicals and christian right taking over Christs’ teachings. They are so wrong……I often think about who would Christ bomb and know that he wouldn’t bomb anyone…..a older woman in my bible class this past wednesday said that she thought many other nations were becoming quite aggressive and military. I said what? We are the ones who spend more than all the other nations on earth combined on our military and we are the ones who are bombing and destroying other countries. She was dumbstruck….she’s a good woman, but she’s bought into the meme that we’re the good ones and the terrorists or muslims are the evil doers.
I won’t give up on being a Christian and ceding to those whom I think are hypocrites. Thanks for your thoughts.
Mods? For some strange reason after I hit submit comment in the last thread it just sits and spins.
I have no other problems loading pages etc.
please excuse the interruption.
Thank you pastordan. You may have all of my spoons..)
No, I don’t live in LA – as a matter of fact, I had to google Mahoney to find out who he is.
Is he running for office?
As an agnostic, I’ve always been fond of this sonnet by Matthew Arnold.
706. The Better Part
Matthew Arnold (1822–1888)
LONG fed on boundless hopes, O race of man,
How angrily thou spurn’st all simpler fare!
“Christ,” some one says, “was human as we are;
No judge eyes us from Heaven, our sin to scan;
We live no more, when we have done our span.”
“Well, then, for Christ,” thou answerest, “who can care?
From sin, which Heaven records not, why forbear?
Live we like brutes our life without a plan!”
So answerest thou; but why not rather say:
“Hath man no second life?—Pitch this one high!
Sits there no judge in Heaven, our sin to see?—
More strictly, then, the inward judge obey!
Was Christ a man like us? Ah! let us try
If we then, too, can be such men as he!”
From tomorrow’s NYTimes:
The Failed Attorney General
Strategerie @ 75
We do?
I think not.
I am absolutely delighted a Muslim was elected to Congress. My cup runneth over that some bigots could not avoid showing their fangs.
And yet there is a not unreasonable – to me – argument that democracy is incompatible with dominant Muslim belief and practice. For at least some, government and religion are interchangeable. The crime of converting to some other religion includes a mandatory death sentence for the erstwhile Muslim in some Muslim nations.
It seems to me that little on earth is more difficult than defining right and wrong.
Best, Terry
You really live near a Fondu lake? And that’s in Wisconsin?
Also, “various forms of pond sludge” no doubt outnumber ‘people of faith’ but are to
blissed out to vote.I’m an atheist but I think I could talk to you. Be well!
Pastordan- I figure that you probably had some idea as to what you were getting into here, and trusted that you would keep the conversation on a steady keel. And so you have.
I really don’t like the idea of mixing politics and religion AT ALL. Separation of Church and State, and all that. Somehow the phrase “By their works you shall know them” comes to mind. If Faith (capital F) guides good works for an individual, then that is good. If it drives bad works, then that is bad, or perhaps even evil. I have seen plenty of evil from people who profess their “Faith”, just as I have seen good from others who do same. “By their works you shall know them.”
ES- just to let you know that I have been having the same problem. I have reported it to the authorities.
However, as you can see, I have just been able to post, so this problem might not be easily resolved.
VG – thanks, I think it’s working now.
(every time I see you lately, I try to imagine toad vision) *s*
Live it, breathe it, be it.
Nobody should have to preach it if you want to lead a secular and multi-ethnic and multi-cultural country, should she/he?
Be real. Just do it and so shall we judge you.
(and vote)
btw, I judged the booshies et al way back and lots o’ dems, too. C’mon, now!
I really want someone who believes in our Constitution.
Speaking of:
“fewer hacks with transparent agendas”
Made the transition this evening from watching The Dark Ages on the History Channel to a vid-clip of Jerry Falwell pimping Newt Gingrich and the other “values” Republicans as his crony Dobson did yesterday.
What goes around comes around.
Dropping in from tall timber country of northern Minn. tonight, where the celestial chorus is the neighborhood hoot owl, and the majesty is the constellations in the sky…not the phony prophets on the tube.
Interesting discussion in that Dark Ages series on the origins of the benediction. Food for thought with your words of wisdom, pastordan.
Pastor Dan, welcome. I wonder if you read John Danforth book, Faith in Politics, and what you thought about it if you did.
Welcome, pastordan.
pastordan @
33
I don’t know. I am really sick, almost physically repelled, by hearing people talk about their “faith.” I think this last 6 years has done for me what nothing ever could before, and that is make me question my faith.
Do I really want to be a Christian?
Maybe not. Maybe I can be an amalgam of various beliefs.
Talk about feeding people who are hungry. That has been my situation, and people “of faith” have known it and done nothing. So I get a little queasy when it’s brought up. Show me the grocery money. Then maybe I’ll change my mind.
TeddySanFran @ 76
Maybe the next Original Sin they can eliminate in the womb is committing adultry and hanging out with prostitutes.
Hello? Should probably just say good night, if I can.
Explanation: for the past half hour or so, I couldn’t post. Would just watch the little thingie spin for who knows how long.
Renee in Ohio @ 97
ditto.
test.
Pach is upstairs
Renee in Ohio @ 97
I had the same problem. Maybe is was Donita Sparks and the Spin I’m In?!
AZ Matt @
100
Got an email that PastorDan had the same problem with commenting. Weird goings on . . .
He said he’ll pop by tomorrow, to check for comments and such, but since tomorrow’s a work day, he’s got to call it a night. He sends his thanks, to all who commented and all who read.
Ah- so many of us were having the same problem. I was.
Sorry, folks. Got lost down the wormhole there.
Very quickly, and then I have to go bed. (I have to get up in the morning for some damn thing or another.)
LnL@61–D’oh! Who said clergymen were infallible? Some people can’t spell; I can’t remember names.
masaccio@62–I fundamentally agree with you. Part of the problem, I think, is generalized ignorance. We ought to be able to expect our pols to put their thought into some kind of larger context, religious or not. Many of them actually can, but the soundbite system works against them.
DfD@63 & 68–Huh?
Confidential to HPE: send it again. I don’t think I got it…
lina@67–correct.
jeffreyw–I don’t see that as a bad thing at all. If people are going to open themselves up to those questions, then they need to be prepared to answer them, fully.
ValleyGirl@87–who ever said faith was anything but morally ambiguous? Not I. Not anyone who’s ever read the story of Abraham and Isaac and taken it seriously.
AnninAZ@93–I have not, but from what I’ve seen of Danforth in other forums, he’s…well, let’s just say he’s not as free from self-interest as he might be.
Peterr- it was really frustrating, bec. this was shaping up to be a very interesting FDL discussion. I tried to post my comment many times. Turn, turn, turn… (musical reference, but maybe not the best).
Hmmm. Robert Fisk and Noam Chomsky – and US policy from the restoration of the Shah through Kermit Roosevelt’s splendid little coup in ‘54 to Cheeny/Rumsfeld’s support for Saddam during the Iran/Iraq war up through the US’s undying support for Egypt’s President For Life, now on his sixth term…with very full jails.
Yep, the Muslim world hates democracy so much theathe US spends billions of dollars a year to prop up oligrachs and dictators who jail, torture, and massacre their subjects.
Just as our clients the Shah and Saddam did. They were our stongmen, after all.
Oh….
– the reactors in Iran and Iraq?
Pressed on both nations by the US.
Part of Atoms for Peace, doncha know?
Our ideology was that atomic power is peaceful.
Oops.
The US electorate, in contrast, freely elects and re-elects theocratic candiates who publicly seek to attempt to impose their theocratic ideologies in reproductive health (Plan B), domestic partners’ tax relief (”gay” marriage), Jesus’ message of peace (Iraq war), Jesus’ message of forgiveness (death penalty), biology (evolution), geology (yep, evolution again), and planetary geochemistry and geophysics (global warming).
This sorry record appears to support the prejudicial conclusion that democracy is incompatible with dominant Muslim beleifs.
A more catholic view (look it up) is that fundamentalism of any religious or ideological origin is incredibly destuctive.
Fundamentalists – Bin Laden, Gen. Boykin, Milton Freidman, MaoTse Tung, Torquemada, Cromwell, Israel’s Lieberman, LePen, Norquist, Falwell, Dobson – are all slaves to ideology.
Willfully, stubbornly, violently enslaved – and opposed to any glimpse of the world confounding their ideological fantasies.
Fundamentalism is to religion as incest is to parenthood.
Those who mistake the evils of the former(s) for the full extent of the latter(s) limit greatly limit their choices.
I try not to allow that to limit mine – or my choice of allies.
Myself, I’m damned glad Catholic Worker showed up to bottom line much of the work required to fit out our five story rented hHQ in LA fot the Aug 2000 protests against the DNC. Progressive religious groups also served central roles in Philly for the 200 RNC protests.
I look forward to continuing to fight side-by-side and community-by-community together with people and faith, agnostics, and athiests towards shared progressive goals.
We share the goals – and without people of faith, progressives can’t win elections.
I’ll fight along with progessive believers.
Those who choose victory in American electoral politics will join us.
Cheers.
terry hallinan @ 85
pastordan- well, as might have gathered from comments above, many of us had the same wormhole experience. This is very odd. Unfortunate, since it was a great topic for discussion.
Valley Girl @ 89
Just so you guys know, I had that same problem with my next to last post, too. By the time I got there and realized it had not gotten thru, I was way down the line, about 30 comments from where I originally posted it. Yet I posted again, it was fine. So it’s an intermittent problem.
merde – sorry for multiple typos..but afraid an edit will eat the comment. i can’t type for ebnas. or beans.
Mary (Mary4)
Your attention is requested over at http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/3/10/201057/490
Bob in HI
Hey, to PastorDan. A brief delurk to offer the observation that the real strength of a secular culture lies in its ability to moot almost all of that “one true religion” stuff in the interests of getting day-to-day work done. For me the measure of respect men (and women) of faith get depends on the degree to which their words and works honor secularity. Sounds weird, huh?
kirk murphy @
108
__________________________________________
revision:
Hmmm. Robert Fisk and Noam Chomsky exhaustively record – and US policy (from the restoration of the Shah via Kermit Roosevelt’s splendid little coup in ‘54, to the Indonesian generals’ coup, to Cheeny/Rumsfeld’s support for Saddam during the Iran/Iraq war, up through the US’s undying support for Egypt’s President For Life – now on his sixth term….with very full jails) confirms how the West struggles to destroy any vestige of popular rule in the Muslim world.
For those who haven’t noticed, the Palestinians had the cheeck to freely elect leaders Israel doesn’t like.
So the US, EU, and Israel are starving Gaza and the 1.5 (?) million residents thereof.
‘Cause we love democracy and those dirty goddless Muslims don’t.
Uh huh.
Yep, the Muslim world hates democracy so much that the US spends billions of dollars a year to prop up monarchs and dictators who jail, torture, and massacre their subjects.
Just as our clients the Shah and Saddam did. While US taxpayers bought their weapons for them from US megacorps.
They were our strongmen, after all. We installed them.
Oh….
- the reactors in Iran and Iraq?
Pressed on both nations by the US.
Part of Atoms for Peace, don’cha know?
Our ideology was that atomic power is peaceful.
Oops.
The US electorate, in contrast, freely elects and re-elects theocratic candiates who publicly seek to attempt to impose their theocratic ideologies in reproductive health (Plan B), domestic partners’ tax relief (”gay” marriage), Jesus’ message of peace (Iraq war), Jesus’ message of forgiveness (death penalty), biology (evolution), geology (yep, evolution again), and planetary geochemistry and geophysics (global warming).
This sorry record appears to support the prejudicial conclusion that democracy is incompatible with dominant Judeo-Christian beliefs.
A more catholic view (look it up) is that fundamentalism of any religious or ideological origin is incredibly destuctive.
Fundamentalists – Bin Laden, Gen. Boykin, Milton Freidman, MaoTse Tung, Torquemada, Cromwell, Israel’s Lieberman, LePen, Norquist, Falwell, Dobson – are all slaves to ideology.
Religious fundamentalists, economic fundamentalists, social fundamentalists – they’re all delusional. They suffer from “negative hallucinations”. Rather than seeing what is not there, they are psychotically unable to see the world around them.
They’re all incapable of recognizing information from the real physical world that conflicts with their ideologies.
Willfully, stubbornly, violently enslaved – and opposed to any glimpse of the world confounding their ideological fantasies.
Fundamentalism is to religion as incest is to parenthood.
Those who mistake the evils of the former(s) for the full extent of the latter(s) limit greatly limit their choices.
I try not to allow that to limit mine – or my choice of allies.
Myself, I’m damned glad Catholic Worker showed up to bottom line much of the work required to fit out our five story rented HQ in LA for the Aug 2000 protests against the DNC.
Progressive religious groups also served central roles in Philly for the 2000 RNC protests.
I look forward to continuing to fight side-by-side and community-by-community together with people of faith, agnostics, and athiests towards shared progressive goals.
And with Unitarians (I’m not singling them out, I’m just not able to define them).
We all share progressive goals – and without people of faith, progressives can’t win elections.
I’ll fight along with progessive believers.
Those who choose victory in American electoral politics will join us.
Cheers.
I appreciate the spirit of pastordan’s post, and no disrespect, but since we’re on religion:
- People of faith should be activist in opposing the constant, widespread wrongdoing committed under the banner of organized religion.
- People of faith should be upfront in acknowledging the irrationality of their position, and humble in their dealings with the fact-based.
- It’s preposterous in the Age of Bush to suggest that religion or people of faith are being persecuted.
- Once you’ve opened the door to irrationality, it’s hard to complain about who walks through (e.g. Jerry Falwell and South Africa’s Dutch Reformed Church), and you’ve surrendered a crucial tool – logic – for objecting to their behavior.
- Religion should be treated like alcohol, gambling, or fatty foods – permitted but discouraged.
True people of faith do not have to talk about their faith because they live their faith. Presently, the best example of a true person of faith is Jimmy Carter. He lives his faith. Yet, the right “moral values” crowd always denigrate and demean him–acts which are not Christian. Most of the “moral values” crowd are people who are trying to shove their faith down the throats of us who don’t want their faith. I don’t need their faith; I have my own. And, I believe that my actions speak louder than words; thus, I do not talk about my faith that often. If it can’t be seen in my life actions; then, I will have to work harder.
I object to the emphasis on a politician’s faith, and here’s why.
The Obama dustup, and the screeching about a Muslim being elected to Congress was absolutely predictible. It’s what happens when a candidate’s faith or lack of it becomes an issue. I’d be happy if politicians didn’t mention religious faith, and instead talked about the foundations of MANY faiths….social justice, the golden rule, etc.
I understand if a candidate, in answer to a question, says “I’m a Methodist, Catholic or whatever. (I’d love to see someone say “I’m an agnostic, not that it’s your business). But when politicians talk at length about how religious they are, everyone with a religious ax to grind raises the ax, ready for the attack. Bottom line: in today’s atmosphere you cannot talk about “faith” without bringing up “which faith?” And it devolves from there.
pastordan @
58
You seem to be engaged in very slippery slope arguments and weasel wording.
What you referred me to might be called
faith1 = “a person’s belief system.”
This meaning differs from more common definitions of religious faith such as:
faith2 = “a belief system that involves the supernatural”,
and
faith3 = “a belief system that is unquestionable”
These are just a few meanings of what people think they understand when they hear the word “faith”. Often fundamentalists understand all 3 above meanings and more.
With regard to your objectionable definition:
the problem is that it doesn’t really use any of the 3 above simple “faith” definitions – none involve morality.
Calling atheism a faith1 is insulting because it is often understood to mean faith2 and faith3.
To include morality you could generalize “faith” to also include:
faith4 = “all of a person’s moral and immoral/amoral beliefs”
That way you could claim by definition that an atheist has a faith4 that is moral though it purposely confuses the fact that an atheist doesn’t have a faith2.
With faith4, even an atheist psychopath that likes to chop little girls into pieces has “faith” and “morality” – though most people think those are terms that don’t apply to the negative end of the scale.
Rather than all the weasel wording to extend the definition of “faith” in ways that most people will not understand, isn’t it just simpler to say that
Your attempts to extend the definition of “faith” to both include “atheism” and their “morality” is pandering to the “right”, over-reaching and offensive.
Maybe it is possible to have a godless faith1 – but the program seems to want one to evolve to
I can can cope with faith1 (meaning just a belief system) but I put my foot down on suggestions that I will evolve into a God.
Knowing Pastor Dan from Street Prophets, I wasn’t surprised that he slipped & wrote “Jonathan Edwards.” But don’t get him started – no doubt he has a lot to say about the great New England preacher & theologian, too.
Sorry about the above HTML. I wrote valid stuff that worked in Preview, but all of the special spacing and subscripting seems to have been either mis-converted or stripped out between a Preview and the actual post.
Hi Pastordan.
That’s not what atheism is. Atheism, at least for many people, is not a “positive belief in the absence of God”. It is the lack of a belief in the presence of God. Calling atheism a faith is obtuse. It’s a sign you don’t understand the first thing about what atheism is. You are falling in line with the people who view atheism as “just another belief system”. Atheism is the opposite of “faith”, and is based on people who reject “faith” as a way of building an epistemological framework for their thinking.
DefJef @ 37
I agree completely! Why are books, thoughts, beliefs used to justify why a person is a good person to be elected? “Actions speak louder than words” and this leaves me feeling hollow, that they can only define theirselves using religion. Seems the only way to get votes in this country is to be a “christian” and it looses my votes. The conservative “red” states have the highest crime rates so apparently the conservative’s prayers are not being heard….
Just my thoughts.
Watson @ 112
This quote may very well be one of the reasons I like Fire Dog Lake and it’s participants…
All of the postings to PastorDan give me hope in our country,they are reasonable!
MonkeyBoy@155 & RickD@118–so what you’re saying is that atheists have no coherent worldview, no consistent moral positions?
Now who’s being obtuse?
I don’t mind a politician saying, in answer to a question, “I’m an Episcopalian and a member of St. John’s parish.” That’s enough talk unless there is something like “our parish, including me, went to NOLA last January to work with Habitat for Humanity for two weeks.” Then talk about how to make government work to address the problems you saw there, as a reason to elect you.
I hope you realize your argument is everything those of us would like those of you that show the religious bent to understand? religion is the primary cause of hatred on this little mostly round rock.
we brand people because they wish to be a part of someone else’s fantasy land. the religion then denigrates them as being outside the loop. they think the very same thing based on your ideas, does everyone realize that? if it is something you are a part of to be a part of something, then you clearly dig segregation, and this will continue as long as you need a club to join.
oh that one day when humans wake up to see that it always was we that are that ole’ god thing. it was us that made it up, and it is going to be up to us to abandon it for something that draws humanity together to solve the issues that gave rise to religion.
religion has some serious side effects that need to be understood first. it needs a warning on the bottle that this is a “controlled substance” that may cause you physical and emotional problems. if you found out before you joined that 99% feel it is about money, power, slavery, hatred, etc… would you join up? there is a good reason why the old golden rule is far older than religion and forms the only substantial base. it is the only religion that allows others to be just like you.
I would like to suggest that if we stopped talking about it, that it would go away. let’s evolve, shall we?
I would be lying if I said that my own life and worldview are not deeply founded in the Christian bibe from the Methodist Church upbringing that I experienced in a small town in the 1960s. I am also a product of a Roman Catholic conversion in young adulthodd and an eventual move to the Episcopal Church when Roman Catholicism became untenbable for me. I now espouse atheism but my work remains inextricably linked to the Sermon on the Mount, the Golden Rule, and the other teachings of Jesus, augmented by other revelations from Buddhism, Paganism, and the social justice movement of the 60s.
Religion has always played a large role in my life even though I now eschew any ties to any formalized religous body and look upon all organized religion with eyes of great suspicion. I don’t believe I am unique or that different from many people. I still avidly read books about Christianity and follow these discussions with as open a mind as I able to, considering that I am gay and often experience what PastorDan speaks of in this post — being talked “about” and “past” rather than “to” by people who are not qualified nor dignified enought to say anything at all about my situation.
It is important for me to know what beliefs political candidates hold because, like myself, it tells me how that person thinks and may act when faced with complicated dilemmas but I also look very carefully at what that person has actually done in the past and I compare and contrast that with what they have said about their beliefs.
Many politicians in both parties demonstrate discord between their public statements and their public and private acts. It would not be helpful to me as a citizen or a voter to either completely shut out a candidate because of what they say about their faith or to assume that their statement was a guarantee of a way of voting and introducing legislation.
Rather than reduce this argument to its simplest and most shallow elements, i.e. “I am a Christian” or “I am an Evangelical Christian” it is my belief that we need to extend and deepen the discussion and connect professions of faith with actions, as so many here have stated so succinctly. We need to ask questions like “If you are a Christian then what does that mean when you are faced with voting on a bill to create Universal Healthcare?” or “How do your beliefs support or deny the tenets of the U.S. Constitution when it comes to questions of equality and freedom of all Americans, such as gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgender Americans?”
Reason and enlightenment come from open and engaging discussion of all aspects of life and benefit little from closeted opinions and ideas. This problem is complicated, in some ways I think, by a fear, on some people’s parts, that their beliefs won’t stand up to this kind of scrutiny or that privately held beliefs will be deemed peculiar and unacceptable when made public. Fear, suspicion, judgmentalism, and angry rhetoric only serve to obscure truth and light and leave us all wanting and ignorant.
Religion should be treated like alcohol, gambling, or fatty foods – permitted but discouraged.
I view religion like I view alcohol-harmless in moderation, and possibly even beneficial. In excess, it becomes addictive & toxic.
What I find fascinating is that many of those who claim to esteem the lessons of Jesus willfully ignore the lesson of his life: Jesus may have been the most gracious man to ever walk the face of the planet. The Golden Rule he taught, ” Choose for others only as one would choose for one’s self”, guarantees gracious behavior when honored. Not one of the purported ‘religious’ leaders cited above has demonstrated ‘gracious behavior’ or ‘gracious understanding’ of why challenges arise in life. In fact, the reason these men of religion seem to attract the men of politics that they do is the furtherance of ungracious aims. How gracious is that? It’s enough to make Jesus laugh at the hypocrisy of it all…
pastordan @
33
I think a great deal of my discomfiture with the intersection of politics and religion comes not from politicians’ declarations of faith, but when and how they make them. Obama came off as trolling for votes by denigrating his own party in front of a religious organization. It was no more a sincere profession than someone wearing a green tie on St. Patrick’s day. Compare this to the orators of the civil rights movement, who were profoundly religious but used that faith to move mountains. I would love to hear Obama rattle the windows, shake the foundation and blow open the doors with a sermon from the heart that started, for example, “It is a sad and faithless country that lets a child die from a toothache.” I don’t mind a religion that comforts the afflicted as long as it doesn’t leave out the parts of the bible were Jesus afflicts the comfortable.
DefJef @
30
Maybe, maybe not. If it is due to god, as the saying goes, god works in mysterious ways. The reforms of the Roosevelt era were a direct result of the blatant self-enrichment of the previous years.
So I persist in hoping that some good comes out of all these blatant crass shenanigans. After all, hope is why we do all this, no?
pastordan @ 121
As a group why should they? Despite what many religious people think, atheism is not a religion. Atheists (except for some nut cases) don’t have creeds and teachings and don’t go to meetings to elaborate or enforce their atheism.
Your snark is similar to assuming that people who live in NYC have a common world view that unites the rich on the Upper West Side with African immigrants.
Calling atheism a religion and perverting the meaning of “faith” so you can ascribe it to atheists is similar to claiming that “not playing golf” is a sport.
One thing that many atheists reject is “faith” in the common meaning that some “facts” have to be “taken on faith” because they are intrinsically unquestionable. Such people can accept “facts” without questioning them but reserve the right to reject them if they cannot be explained.
Pastor Dan, you suffer from parochialism. Since religion dominates and structures your world view you assume something similar structures the world view of people who don’t have religion.
Pastordan, as a former Baptist MK/PK, and current Pagan priest, i must say you renew my hope for Christianity. Thank you.
sv