Yep, you guessed it… Republicans!
How else can we explain Harry Reid's unbending desire to have the Democratic presidential debate broadcast on Fox News? How else can we explain their reluctance to make a serious effort to end an incredibly unpopular president's incredibly unpopular war? How else can we explain them buying into the Republican meme that withdrawal is some sort of fringe leftist commie position, and that defunding the occupation means that our troops will be patrolling in Big Wheels, wearing nothing but their underwear, and facing down Teh Scary Terrorist Hordes armed only with sticks and pebbles?
Or going back further, how can we explain their lack of resistance to the bankruptcy bill, of the nominations of Roberts or Alito? Or, fortheloveofGodandallthatisholy, the "Torture Good, Habeas Bad" Act, which should have been the no-brainer di tutti no-brainers?
I have three theories (as you may have noticed by now, I kinda dig lists; maybe because I really suck at organizing my thoughts), none of them encouraging:
1) The Democrats have seen the growing unrest in the Republican ranks, and have decided to go for the home run, a raid on the Republican base.
2) They still believe the toxic whispers of the DLC, telling them that compromising Democratic values and playing to the right is the only way to get elected. After all, it worked for Bill Clinton (his being the most gifted and charismatic American politician since JFK had absolutely nothing to do with it). Since Bill, well, not so much until last year (which was a gift). But only because they're not triangulating hard enough.
3) This is the one that scares me the most: That the Democrats have internalized the unspoken frame that the Republicans and the media have been using, which is that only Republicans are real Americans. Think about it: All of the claims that they make about what's mainstream and what's not make no sense when you look at the overall poll numbers. But if you look at the Republican-only numbers, that's where you'll find the mainstream that the media keeps talking about, where Dubya is strong and honest and resolute, and everyone hates abortion and immigrants and gay marriage and peace. Or, alternatively, the Democrats simply haven't looked at the polls since late 2001, and think Dubya is still insanely popular.
Whatever the reason, This. Capitulation. Must. Stop. This isn't even pandering to the polls – it's the exact opposite. The Democrats are doing the exact opposite of what the majority of the country wants, and the exact opposite of what they were voted into the majority for.
Even if they don't succeed in ending the war, their opposition to it must be committed and indisputable. To do anything less is to assume partial ownership of the war, and repudiate the voters who demanded an end to it last November. If the American voters feel that the Democrats did everything they could but just didn't have the votes because the Republicans remain committed to the war, then 2008 will be a bloodbath for the GOP. But if they sense that the Democrats were pulling their punches because they were afraid to look weak (oh, the irony), then a lot of them are just going to stay home, or vote Republican.
Now, I'm hoping that this post has become obsolete since I started writing it last night, but the new withdrawal proposal is still pretty lukewarm: long withdrawal timetable, allows Bush to fudge benchmarks to claim that we're still making progress and need to stay, and I'm not sure if it actually has any kind of enforcement provisions. A unified front behind this measure would be an improvement over their posturing so far, but I'm not sure if it's going to be good enough.
UPDATE: Well, I guess you can just ignore this post completely now. Talk amongst yourselves. (h/t Twisted Martini)
Related posts:
- Red State Targets Vulnerable Democrats in Conservative Districts over IMF
- Hey, Harry Reid, Stop Protecting Democrats Who Want to Filibuster the Public Option
- Democrats and Republicans Targeted by Clunkers
- Democrats “Win” 2008 So Republican Can Write Health Care Bill
- FDL Action Launches 40,000 Call Phone Bank to Nevada Democrats Targeting Harry Reid and the Public Option
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Martinis for everyone! Happy Friday!
Apparently the Dems found their balls…
Dems fire Faxe News
Eli !
Maybe we should start our own party.
Great post. Items 2) and 3), in spades.
Belated thanks to Jane for her post downstairs. Scooter Libby is indeed not a good man. No way, no how.
Who wants a drink? I do I do!
Twisted Martini @ 2
eli, doncha just hate it when this happens right after you’ve posted something? :)
Twisted Martini @ 1
And all it took was for the Fox News president to compare Obama to Osama bin Laden…
p.lukasiak @ 6
It would suck more if it were *bad* news.
I’m personally grateful for any step they take in this direction, no matter how small.
Outrage with the DLC continues to build here. In this house.
Wildly off-topic (and deeply disturbing): Getting away with murder
Twisted Martini @ 10
Me too. But March or August 2008 is awfully late. If we still have troops there next August, there are going to be a lot of voters wondering why the hell we’re still over there.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 10
OK, finding new peaks are we? The are a bunch of cowardly scum, aren’t they?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 11
They remind me of Grima Wormtongue in the Lord of the Rings trilogy, secretly in the enemy’s employ, counseling his king to stay passive and weak.
I am beginning to suspect that I am smarter than the leaders of my party, the Democrats. Scaaaary. We are letting the Republicans burden us with the Middle East fireball that’s to come.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 15
This is a common occurrence in the corporate world. The line workers in the field see things much more clearly than those HQ types who have built up political and byzantine power structures.
Great Wormtongue analogy too Eli. Perfect.
Oh my, where is the wingnut outrage? Not one wingnut screed (misspelled or not) so far in the HuffPo comments that their precious channel lost the Dem ‘contract’. bwahahaaaa
From Drudge-
WAR: DEMS PULL OUT OF FOXNEWS DEBATE
Eli, until at least one of the Democratic leaders (1) stands up to Joe Lieberman; (2) stands up to Bush; (3) starts talking about living wages for working Americans; (4) kicks the DLC out the door; and (5) any number of other things—this post will not be obsolete. It’s nice that they decided not to do the Fox News debate, but that decision was a no-brainer. They know there’s no way that their appearance on that network could persuade any Fox viewer to vote Democratic. It was a safe decision, since they had nothing to lose. I grant that it’s nice to see them actually standing up to Unfair & Imbalanced News this way, but I’d like to see them pull off, oh say a non-binding resolution to bring the war to an end. They couldn’t even do that.
I just want to point out that Chris Matthews interviewed Tina Reynolds of grassrootsamerica4us – the woman Rep. Obey hollered at in the bit of YouTube being aired a lot today – on his 5pm EST show and it will probably be aired on the 7pm version.
Just want to say that we felt she articulated her point of view in a heartfelt and reasonable way. I looked at the website and was very moved by the story about her son she posted in a letter to Walter Jones.
Somehow we have to find a way to stand up to the “failure to support the troops with funding” issue.
Congratulations Eli. Your post must have scared the Dems back to their senses re Fox. Good news.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 16
you are, OK.
and Eli, your post is just great.
That picture of that dumbya sporting the ‘purple heart’ is one that I really, really despised back then and it’s never gonna leave my brain…
;(
Well, Mr. Reid wanted some $$$.
Balrog brings the heat!
Blue Dido @ 20
I can actually cut the Democrats some slack on not ending the war, *if* they do everything they can to end it. But if they don’t have the votes, and the Republicans won’t break ranks, then there’s nothing they can do about that.
But that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t make the effort anyway, so that at least they’re on record as wanting to end the war, and the Republicans are on record as wanting to prolong it. If the war was hard on the Republicans last year, it’ll be even harder on them next year. But only if the Democrats can honestly say that they did everything they could to end it.
And I am absolutely, positively not saying that the Democrats should somehow sneakily prolong the war so they can make it a 2008 campaign issue – I want the war OVER. But if that can’t be done, then wiping out the Republican party and *then* ending the war would be a halfway decent consolation prize.
David Brooks lied and smeared Joe Wilson in PBS tonight. Claimed Wilson’s op-ed has been proven wrong. In which universe?
SusanM @ 21
boy is that ever right.
The Congressional Dems are cowering because they can’t find a way to fight the White House PROPAGANDA. It is pathetic.
They can’t find a way to say cutting off funding does not leave soldiers stranded naked in the desert. IT STOPS THEIR DEPLOYMENT TO A WAR ZONE.
I don’t know why that’s so hard for them to say.
Wow, and that comment re: the pullout from Faux Noise Channel just *proves* why the Dems need to pull that debate YESTERDAY.
eli – i have another possbility to add to your list:
4. they are trying very hard to appeal to two constituencies – the ones with the big bucks (mostly not us) and the one with the votes and volunteers (us). so long as we don’t notice (or make a big enough fuss), they will (in general) follow the money.
if there’s lots of money involved, we have to create an awful big fuss for them to listen (even a little bit) to us.
Damn Skippy!
angie @ 23
Thanks, angie. Pat Peale is a horrible, horrible person.
And you know what? She’s never going to vote for a Democrat. Never ever.
don’t forget to read this
there’s more
Jay Rosen hearts Firedoglake
Twisted Martini @
2
Actually, I think this is less an instance of finding their balls, and more an instance of realizing that putting your balls on a chopping block isn’t such smart move.
Hey, Eli, the FOX news news doesn’t spoil the main point of your post at all. Cancelling the Nevada debate is a step in the right direction — but having found a little courage, there’s no reason to believe National Democrats find it again tomorrow.
We need to keep after them always: remind them who they work for, demand they represent the views of the majority of Americans, and encourage them to continue down the correct path. The obstacles and temptations on the path to righteousness are many, varied, and glittering — our representatives will stray if we let them.
Constant, ongoing supervision may win the day.
scarecrow @ 27
eli – please write a post on this. with your magic powers, i’m sure brooks would immediately retract this nonsense.
nice post eli, let me take issue a little bit with one of your quotes;
this is exactly what the president did do though, he gave them far too troops with far to little equiptment, no support
big wheels and and their underwear is about all they did get…some of them have even been billed for the uniforms that was blown from their body with their arms, and the rifle that went with it
selise @ 30
Yes – I believe the big bucks are virtually interchangeable with the DLC, and I believe that given the choice between winning elections and pleasing the money men, the Democrats will pick pleasing the money men. But what they really want to do is win elections *and* please the money men.
Unfortunately, us dirty fucking hippies are making that harder to do, and that’s why the party establishment and the money men hate us so.
Great post, with one exception: “After all, it worked for Bill Clinton (his being the most gifted and charismatic American politician since JFK had absolutely nothing to do with it).”
Can we let this annoyingly false claim die? Please?
Let’s review history a bit. Bill Clinton certainly has more personal charisma than most politicians. I will grant that, even if I personally find him to be a transparent phony.
But Clinton never won a majority of American voters. As leader of his party, he allowed it — if not pushed it — into the state of decay that we are only now recovering from. After Gingrich cleaned his clock, Clinton embarassingly declared himself to be “still relevant.” A pathetic phrase that neither Bush nor Cheney
wouldwill never utter evenifwhen their poll numbersdroppeddrop into the single digits.Clinton had no control over the media, as years of Whitewater faux-scandals showed. He let himself get impeached by a bunch of hypocritical assholes and he left no major political achievements behind as his legacy.
Clinton presided over our country during a time of relative peace and prosperity and steered a fairly centrist course that would have been largely duplicated had we elected any of a couple dozen new democrats.
Since leaving office, despite being the most recognizable Democratic face in the country, Clinton has utterly failed to lead any sort of push-back against the Bush/Cheney administration. He is such a let-down that Democrats don’t even bother hoping that he will stand up for them.
And this is the man who has been dubbed “the most gifted and charismatic American politician since JFK”? Not even close.
perris @ 37
Well, yeah, but when the president does it it’s okay, because he supports
the warthe troops.Sorry for the long post. I had to vent.
POWER TO THE PEOPLE!
Eli @ 32
And we don’t need every Repub vote. I think the Dems just need to stand for everything Bush has tried to destroy – like good, honest, competent government, etc — there is plenty of support for that, and we won’t care what the Dubya die-hards do.
Shez @
18
They’re all over The Politico. Here’s the link, if you must:
http://www.politico.com/news/s…../3069.html
Space, it depends on the meaning of the word “politician”. Clinton is incredibly smart, incredibly charismatic, incredibly eloquent… and incredibly weak.
But since JFK, who would you say has been better? There have certainly been a lot of Democrats with more integrity and backbone, but none of them have anywhere near his charisma and campaign skills.
Eli – what about the possiblity that they are involved in a unique venture into poltical performance art?
I can totally see Reid as Borat.
Totally.
I almost hate to say it, because I don’t want to encourage this sort of behavior, but I think, in the end, this was the best of all possible scenarios. Better, even, than if the Nevada Dems hadn’t signed up for this debate with Faux Noise at all.
As wishy washy as it makes Reid look, this whole ordeal really forced the perception that Faux Noise is a Republican propaganda outlet that’s not to be taken seriously as a news source into the public’s conventional wisdom, and drove the point home.
It’s nice the wingnuts have a new roost at The Politico. I’m sure Vandehei and Allen feel loved by their new best friends. I wonder if their commenters share their Cheetos with the “journalists.”
scarecrow @ 43
I’m not sure we need *any* Republican votes. But if we *do* get them, let’s get them by way of grudging admiration (you know, the old “I don’t agree with everything he stands for, but he’s a standup guy and he means what he says” deal) rather than pandering. Nice thing about that approach is that it appeals to *everybody*.
perris @ 37
perris – i had the most frustrating conversation (luckily it was short) with a person in senator kerry’s DC office this week. i called to ask if we could count on him not to vote for any further funding to continue the war/occupation…. and i got a short lecture on how we couldn’t do that ‘cuz people would die due to lack of armor, etc.
jeeze, and i thought it was BEING IN IRAQ that was putting the troops in harms way.
i really hate it when dems use republican talking points to lecture me.
bdu @ 47
Possibly, but let’s not let that mutate into another “ooh, clever Harry Reid” meme, please….
Who the hell is Pat Peale (other than the troll in the picture?)
TeddySanFran @ 51
Oh, God no. He’s like the Chauncey Gardiner of politics.
Twisted Martini @ 52
Her.
This: From Nicole at C&L. An Iraqi blogger.
http://gorillasguides.com/2007…..-and-shit/
As an Edwards fan (but not an “operative”) I like where he ends up on this Nevada debate issue, as well: leader of the pack.
Eli, I agree that this post is about a lot more than one debate at Faux. It’s also about, as Tina Reynolds said (to paraphrase,) we will be paralized to do anything until the Democrats in Congress stop using Repugnicant talking points in their efforts to squirm out of stopping to fund this war. And until they do stop using Repugnicant talking points, your post will be valid, and never obsolete.
They’re all over The Politico. Here’s the link, if you must:
wow…. although it was obvious that Politico had a right wing slant, it shocking the extent to which its audience so quickly descended to the level of LittleGreenFootballs
I’m glad that the Democratic debate won’t be on Faux Gnus. But it upsets me that it took grassroots outrage to change Reid’s mind. If we hadn’t spoken out they would have gone right ahead with it. Why didn’t they see the wrongness of it for themselves?
Ann in AZ @ 57
I wish I could say that was reassuring.
It did blow up one of my main arguments, though. On the other hand, it never would have happened without (yet another) provocation by Fox.
I bet Hillary and Obama are really relieved that they don’t have to worry about whether they should skip the debate.
scarecrow @ 27
If Brooks lost his access to the latest WH talking points, his brain would probably click off.
TeddySanFran @ 51
Oh, I agree completely, hence the “I don’t want to encourage this sort of behavior”…
You’d have to be a fool to think Reid engineered this one as a frontal attack on Faux Noise, losing to win in such a convoluted way that makes him look personally weak is WAAAAY too Sun Tzu for his ilk.
TeddySanFran @ 56
Still not sold on his toughness, but he definitely “gets it” on this one. Maybe he’s evolving.
Eli,
I think your Karma turned the trick of getting the Dems out of bed with Fox.
p.lukasiak @
58
How long do you think it will take until Howie Kurtz notices the incivility of The Politico’s commenters and invites Michelle Malkin to lunch at Union Station to talk about it?
AZ Matt @ 64
From now on, *all* of my posts will be about how the Democrats will campaign cautiously and weakly, causing them to get massacred in the 2008 elections.
lina @
28
Terry Olson @ 55
read that this morning over at Gorilla’s Guides and the comments are off til Sunday so somebody(s) else is grieving…
I feel so ashamed. I am grateful that Nicole linked to it.
I would submit that all three are correct (with imademocrattodaybutwhokowswhattommorowmightbring*winksatpalDick* Lieberman of course being the lead man on #3), and you’ll likely get one or all of those reasons depending on which Dem you speak to.
While all three are correct, one explanation can cover all. Most of these people are the same. They’re pals who get together after spending the day arguing at work, performing for the mob. As long as they can keep cashing AIPAC and other lobby checks, the
warwars (ongoing and future) suit most politicians just fine, Dem or Repug.What happened to impeachment, Dems? Conyers, what about that Constitution in Crisis? Anyone?
**crickets**
The truth of “off the table” is that it is the location of the American citizen. The people don’t even figure into the decision anymore. We are now spectators, who (as long as you aren’t too brown), get to play voter in a rigged system.
And hello OKK.
;0)
Eli,
First, I object to the small sample size, since we are largely talking about national political figures.
Second, Clinton (twice!) had the benefit of Ross Perot. Al Gore would have won going away had he had a center-right candidate siphoning votes away from Bush in 2000.
As for the meaning of “politician,” I would apply it in three contexts: campaign skills, policy smarts, and leadership skills.
Clinton was above average on campaign skills, but more of a survivor than a real champion. Give him a 4 out of 5.
He was mediocre on policy. I don’t care how “smart” he is, his actual policies were fairly middle of the road. As I said, you could have replaced him with any number of center-left Dems and gotten the same luke-warm government. 3.5 out of 5.
Leadership skills were in the toilet. He couldn’t keep a loyal staff. He attacked his party instead of building the brand. He failed to decisively lead on issues like health care reform. And he didn’t bother to even fight on global warming or Rwanda. 1 out of 5.
The bottom line is that a skilled politiican should be able to set goals, get him/her-self elected, and enact the agenda.
Even George Bush, whose political goals are violently repulsive, is far more skilled at achieving his political goals than Clinton ever was.
I read that article by Jay Rosen (two threads ago).
I’d wager that if he’d been in Gabbly during the whole thing, he’d be the one blushing. :D
Terry Olson @ 69
Thank you.
scarecrow @
27
Trex to the white courtesy telephone please – this Late Night should write itself.
Excellent post and still very relevant, Eli, regardless of the cancellation of the Fox debate.
You are right on about your hypothesis.
It’s also true that if Matt Stoller, Markos, MoveOn, Robert Greenwald and local blogs hadn’t pushed hard this would never have happened.
I was on that conference call and to say Reid was taken back by the comments from those on the call was an understatement. He promised at the end he would have something more on this. He heard us. He delivered, but I believe it was because of the push back and leadership from those listed above that made the difference. Of course, Roger Ailes helped.
Twisted Martini @ 14
;0)
In lieu of the Democratic debate cancellation Fox News announced they will have Neil Cavuto host a Jello wrestling match with Hooter’s girls.
-GSD
Oh, almost forgot, John Edwards deserves huge credit for refusing the Fox debate from the start.
space @ 70
Clinton also had a massive headwind, in the form of a hostile media and a well-funded Republican noise machine. I think he did pretty well, considering. Perhaps I should have chosen the word “campaigner” instead of “politician”, but I stand by my point, which was that Clinton won *despite* the centrist DLC agenda, not because of it.
The Democrats’ failure to realize this is a large part of why the DLC still has credibility, and why the Democratic party establishment, well, sucks.
Roger Ailes has done some serious damage to Fox News. If the other networks are smart—we know they aren’t—they would give his anti-Clinton, Obama and Edwards comments some serious air time.
So much for “fair and balanced” Ailes, you repellent sleaze merchant….
-GSD
selise @ 30
you’ve got it right. This was a victory for the grassroot dems in Nevada, not, except Edwards, the candidates or party leaders. But it is a great example for all of us. No matter which guy or gal you back, let’s all remember it is to the grassroot orgs that we must first give our money and efforts. The pols must understand they ignore us at their peril.
GSD @ 77
Hardly.
“In lieu of the cancelled Democrat debate, Fox News will air a debate between several political impersonators acting the roles of the Democrat candidates. The script will be written by Rush Limbaugh and Bill OReilly.”
GSD @ 80
Instead, CNN hires Tom DeLay…
Taylor Marsh @ 74
Very good to hear, but as I think someone already asked, why did the leadership have to come from the blogosphere? It sounds like we have a pretty large vacuum at the top of the Democratic party.
twolf1 @ 82
Do they still have Glenn Beck? They can do some kind of point-counterpoint show, with Beck as the liberal.
I have a suggestion for Fox snooze to fill that time slot.
Give it to Lieberman.
Just let him ramble and whine and snivel to his hearts content.
It will save us from having to listen to him, burn up air time for fox and let the Bloviator piss off some republicans for a change.
The FBI broke the law?
AP – The nation’s top two law enforcement officials acknowledged Friday the FBI broke the law to secretly pry out personal information about Americans. They apologized and vowed to prevent further illegal intrusions.
Eli @ 63
Yes, but it seems kinda cool that Obama continues to ignore Fox altogether.
Bustednuckles @ 85
Can the Reid schedule all the withdrawal resolutions for when Joe’s in the studio?
Eli @ 84… Yes, indeed, no argument there from me. Reid was forced to make a move, I believe. As for leadership, see Iraq.
TeddySanFran @
48
You know that Allen and Vandehei won’t share their Karl Rove’s Special sausage and quail wings with the hoi-polloi though.
Thems goodies are for insiders.
-GSD
I have a different take on this Fox News thing than most. While it is important to stand up for our party, I think it is equally important to observe each candidate’s true gut political senses.
The Fox News debate is like a political IQ test. If you are too stupid to realize that Fox is actively working to destroy you, and too stupid to realize that there is NO downside to attacking the network, then you are too stupid to be President.
I am most disappointed in Obama. Personally, if Murdoch’s stations were “accidentally” connecting me to Osama bin Laden, it wouldn’t have taken more that 2 seconds to pull out.
Especially in the House you have two contradictory forces.
You have a few liberal Congresspeople like Conyers and Waxman who were able to weather the conservative onslaught. Their senority set them up to be chairmen of important committees when the Democrats went into the majority.
You also have the DLC types who gravitated toward leadership positions in the minority and in the campaign apparatus. They achieved their status not by opposing the Republicans but by facilitating them no matter how wingnutty they were. These are the Tauschers, Emanuels, and Hoyers. They weren’t behing the lines commandos. They were and are collaborators.
In short, these have internalized the Republican frame.
lina @
28
Sorry, what I meant to say was maybe we should ask the dems to fund an election in Iraq to see if the Iraqis want us there or gone.
Terry Olson @ 87
After all the shit they’ve flung at him, I think he pretty much has to. I would have been more impressed if he had said “Hell, no!” to the debate the second it was announced that it would be on Fox. That would have carried a lot more weight than Edwards, since Obama’s a Superstar! (”Superstar” must be pronounced with an exclamation point).
Eli @ 85
Beck is there as far as I know. Maybe that’s why they called the exterminator – to get rid of that roach.
CNN just aired a slightly longer and more informative version of the Tina Reynold/Rep. Obey confrontation and I wonder the following:
How dare any elected member of congress not be willing to have a reasonable conversation with a citizen?
When did we get to the point where our elected representatives are too frustrated to deal with us, listen to us, and answer our questions in a reasonable manner?
The two people who spoke to Obey asked him what they could do to help him get the votes to accomplish the objective of ending the war and they seemed pretty calm while his aide came out and whisked him away before he slugged somebody. Should someone like that be representing any of us?
SusanM @ 97
Recall the actions of Gordon Smiths office when two little old ladies showed up and insisted to see him. They were arrested.
No shit, arrested.
Looks like the Dems woke up, pulled out, got dressed and left after all. According to Robert Greenwald, the event just got cancelled.
Can anyone else confirm this?
Taylor Marsh @ 78
Yeah, and Bill Richardson got out just in time. I have to wonder if he had inside info (being a member of the Western Whatever co-sponsor) and got out before the word was announced. He was, after all, the only candidate who actually accepted FOX’s invite.
I do not want Obama, nor do I want Hillary, as the nominee in 2008. Can’t we do better? I for one, think so.
Eli @ 78
See, I don’t see that as being outside politics. A hostile media didn’t appear out of thin air. It was created by Republicans with far more political savvy than Clinton, who never understood that, for the GOP, campaign season never ended.
Although my contempt for Joe Lieberman is infinate and eternal, my contempt for the DLC is merely enormous. They may be wrong, but they are not such obvious turncoat sleazebags. However, I could be wrong.
Getting the Dems out of the FNC debate was a major victory for the netroots, without which it would never hae happened. Yay us!
I have rarely been prouder to be a dirty fucking hippy. (Except maybe back in ‘67.)
SusanM @ 97
Wars ruin nations and decimate populations. This war is ruining America. It is sad and it is devastating. Read the Mark from Ireland post, it is heartbreaking. This war is ruining so much and now the ruin is coming home to roost.
-GSD
Hmmm, Gore , Feingold , Edwards, Dean, Clark?
I think posters have found slights with every one of these candidates, Oklahoma Kiddo. There is no ‘perfect candidate’
A very real fear of mine is that Republicans will indeed move over to the D-party. If we cannot clean out the Lieberlovers quickly then our party will be screwed with an influx of Republicans who do not have our best interests in mind (both voters and candidates).
As long as Democrats stand for nothing but the likes of the DLC and AIPAC, Republicans will seek refuge and dilute progressive momentum at all our detriment.
*sigh* Thank goddess for FDL and Blue America!
Democrats in Congress need to slam bill after bill in the neo-cons face until the occupation of Iraq is over. No excuses, no recess, period.
And David Brooks is a lying weasel on the News Hour.
TSF @ 100… I, for one, think it was too coincidental by half, but I’m a cynic when it comes to sudden decisions right before a huge announcement. However, I could be wrong. Richardson is a serious man, so it’s not far fetched to think he got a clue just in time.
I do not have a candidate in the ‘08 primary race, but for my money, Edwards wins big on this one. He didn’t blink an eye. Said no. He wins.
space @ 102
If the media’s relentlessly antagonistic, there’s only so much you can do. After the first couple of years (IIRC), he remained pretty popular, and still is today. Certainly a lot more popular than Bush, who has the friendliest media money can buy.
Let me present it to you another way: Is there *any* other Democratic politician since JFK who could have won in 1992, running on a DLC platform?
CancerCures @ 105
no, but some are better than others.
CancerCures @ 105
True. But perhaps there’s someone ‘more perfect’ than some others. ;0)
Edwards maybe learned something from that BS with the bloggers who got swiftboated on his campaign.
Maybe.
Eureka Springs, AR @ 106
If Republican voters want to vote for Democrats, that’s fine by me. Doesn’t mean they should get to run the Democratic party.
Wow, Tina Richards on Tweety now, speaking for ME!!
TeddySanFran @ 113
“If Nancy Pelosi would listen to this nation — America voted to get us out of Iraq!”
GSD@104
I don’t disagree that war ruins nations. But if we let our representatives act badly without calling them out we get what we deserve and there is no excuse for bad government making us bad citizens.
Never forget the Perot factor. He was a bigger spoiler to Bush I than Nader was to Gore.
BTW Nader is still relevant! IF Clinton wins the primary, I’m voting green or Nader. Peace out Dems!
Eureka Springs, AR @ 106
I just got a chance to see the Brooks performance. It was vintage Brooks. Blah, blah, blah, Joe Wilson, (quiet slightly sad tone to voice) said a lot of wild things that we now know to be false, blah, blah, blah, Scooter Libby is an honorable man, blah, blah.
When did lying to the FBI and the Grand Jury become such a righteous act?
CancerCures @ 116
If the Democrats do not oppose the war with every fiber of their being, there are going to be a lot of voters in 2008 saying Nader was right.
This would not be good for the Democrats.
Some Democratic leaders are disappointing me. They are not paying proper attention to what was said last November. It is becoming a bit more than aggravating.
Fox Noise is having a shit fit! Perfect. They are lashing out at Democrats and the Nevada party and of course claiming that George Soros used his secular-progressive mind-melding ray to cause this affront to Fox Noise.
Congrats asshats, you guys are getting branded now. Yep, you, Fox News are getting branded by us, the smelly blogosphere!
Thank that pasty-faced political apparatchik Roger Ailes for creating this nightmare.
Congrats Fox, your time is coming.
Now we get to watch you get all shrill and pathetic…..gonna just love it.
-GSD
SusanM @ 115
Here, here.
-GSD
OfT: Jim Webb’s gonna be on ABC’s This Week with George Steff this Sunday.
About time someone besides us dirty f*cking hippies found out about Fox.
I’m with GSD, I am going to enjoy this.
squiddy @
99
Why am I always late to these parties?
I have seen the power of the secular-progressive mind-melding ray. It is awesome. Even to think of it now makes me tingle.
Check out Matt Sludge:
Ailes: Pressure To Boycott Debates ‘Must Be Resisted’…
(So much for the resistance, heh Roger?…haw, haw, haw….You can intimidate your Fox News flunkies, but you just lost this round. -GSD)
“We have not received official word from the Nevada State Democratic Party disclosing a change in debate plans. Rumors are being circulated and if true, news organizations will want to think twice before getting involved in the Nevada Democratic Caucus which appears to be controlled by radical fringe out-of-state interest groups, not the Nevada Democratic Party. In the past, Moveon.org has said they ‘own’ the Democratic party—while most Democrats don’t agree with that, we’re waiting to see if that’s the case in Nevada.” — David Rhodes, Vice President, Fox News…
WAR: DEMS PULL OUT OF FOXNEWS DEBATE
-GSD
It seems to me that this “we have to support the troops or we will be painted as weak” is a crock of propaganda. How hard should it be to shed the light on all the Republican scandals that add up to no support for the troops. They are being sent without proper equipment – provable. They are being sent back out of rotation so not trained and ready -provable. They are not cared for when they return – provable. What more do they need to attack.
squiddy @ 124
Not your fault. FDL started daylight savings earlier then the rest of the country. That’s how we knew.
Bustednuckles @ 123
How long until FUX News says they pulled the plug on the Dems?
What exactly do the Democratic leaders of my party not understand. Most of the country is opposed to the Iraq war and Democratic voters said as much in the last elections. Something’s got to give, Democrats, on the Middle East. What does it take?
GSD @ 126
Resistance is useless!
Hugh @ 117
You know, one reason they’re so frantic? Because in a week, they won’t be trying to smear Joe Wilson. They’re going to be trying to smear Valerie, finally freed to tell her side of the story. They’re not going to get very far, smearing Valerie.
Eli @ 106
I completely disagree that Clinton couldn’t do more. He made no effort.
Take Bush and the GOP. They are relentless in trying to “work the refs” by portraying the media as liberal. Sometimes it is goofy, but effective, like when Bush carried around the book “Bias”. Sometimes it is clumsy and stupid, like when Bush tried to poke fun at the NYT during the Presidential debate. It takes time. It takes energy. But in the aggregate it is effective.
But Clinton never made the effort to push back. Other than Hillary’s shot at the “vast right-wing conspiracy” the Clinton’s largely refused to fight.
Are you really telling me that the NYT can let Jeff Gerth run bogus story after bogus story about Whitewater for YEARS and the President of the United States is impotent to do anything about it? Right now, Scooter Libby is thinking, “If only I were so naive.”
Also, what does Fox know about “news organizations”?
Actually it was a clever ruse by democrats to remove credibility to Fox News.
More people trust the Democratic party than the Republican party.
And at this moment in history, the Democratic party says NO to Fox News, because they are a Republican mouth piece.
Whether it was intentional or forced or accidental.
More like this post, Eli!
Keep holding the Dems feet to the fire.
is it just me or was that just a gay black man defending KKKarl Rove on Tweety?
CancerCures @ 135
Quick, call Harry Reid and give him that…..That is brilliant.
-GSD
This really is a huge moment for Fox. Foxaganda has reached its acme……..It’s gonna be a long slide back down the bannister…look out for the razor on the post.
Urban Pirate @ 137
Ron Christy, sold his soul. Poor dude must be real lonely at family gatherings.
-GSD
And goddam am I psyched that the pressure made the Nevada dopes back off. Sorry your post became irrelevent so quickly, Eli. :)
CancerCures @ 135
I’m not buying that. It made all the dems who *didn’t* buck the debate early, [ie: everyone but Edwards, including Reid who was pulling strings to keep it going up until the last day or so] look bad. It just so happens that it makes Faux Noise Channel look worse.
It would take massive balls and serious commitment to purpose to pull a maneuver like this off. If our party leadership had half those requirements we’d be seeing a lot more movement on the Iraq issue than we have.
space @ 133
Yes.
Well, okay, if Gerth did that to Bush, he would have been tried for treason, but that’s a special case. If the media is determined to make you look bad, you’re not going to be able to stop them. Many presidents have tried.
You still haven’t answered my question about what Democrat could have won in ‘92 with a DLC platform, which was my central point.
And Clinton may not have used his gifts for good, or to their fullest potential, but he sure as hell had ‘em.
Valerie’s testimony is something I am VERY much looking forward to, she has been totally silent throughout this whole spectacle. I would imagine there are a few things she would like to say,out loud, on the record, in front of cameras.
Eli @ 45
I agree with you totally, Eli, except I don’t think he’s quite as weak as you do. He did give in to several political expediencies, but he also found the balls to shut down the government and bring the Repugnicant congress to their knees when he needed to. He did send troops to Kosovo even when he was under fire with claims of “wag the dog.” I also think he made us a lot of friends overseas, even when we were considered the ugly American. And I think he’s done quite a bit of good since he’s been out of office with his Global Initiative. Seems most Repugs would prefer to just make a lot of money giving speeches. If W didn’t partner Clinton up with his dad, can you think of any good works daddy Bush has done since he left office, or Ford, or Reagan. Jimmy Carter and Clinton have been out there, and Al Gore. Besides, Bill’s polls are still high, probably higher than Hills. Nope, I like him, even if he is philanderer. I consider that Hillary’s problem, not mine.
We — the netroots — can capitalize on this victory by hammering Democrats who appear on FOX anywhere. They aren’t a legitimate news organization, and that’s the reason the debate’s over. So why should any Democrat appear on FOX?
Freeze them out — their non-authoritarian viewers will continue to drift away. We won’t ever get the Pat Peales of this world, so why care if they continue to get their “news” from a Democrat-free FOX?
GSD @ 139
Jeez. I just don’t get it.
Urban Pirate @ 137
amazing to me that someone so cross-eyed gets invited back on teevee…
WOOT!
Beer o’clock. Have a good one!
Eli @ 95
No, Fox News would have painted it as petty and all about him had Obama been the first to announce that he wouldn’t attend a Fox hosted debate. Really, it was better that Edwards went first.
That said, Obama should have jumped on the bandwagon within a day or so of Edwards’ announcement. It was stupid for Obama to wait so long that the debate got cancelled without him ever taking a stand on it.
Pade @
127
A bullhorn.
TeddySanFran @ 147
That be HER!
I here it said we Democrats are demanding leadership in our nominee for president in 2008. Let me ask you. Does Hillary Clinton fit the demand for leadership requirement?
Ann in AZ @ 144
Well, he’s like the rest of the Democratic leadership. Sometimes they do or stuff that makes you say “Yeah! Go Democrats!” And sometimes they just say stupid shit that reinforces Republican talking points, or they completely cave on something they should be fighting to the death for – like blocking Alito, or the habeas repeal.
Bustednuckles @ 143
Presumably Mrs. Wilson will have an attorney present; will she also have a CIA minder?
emptywheel @ 132
I hope they get far enough to fall of the ledge they are standing on when the truth hits them in the backside during the hearings.
You know so much more about this than I, Marcy, (after all, you wrote the book) but I think the hearings will demonstrate once an for all that Valerie was covert, that her position at the CIA was a vital and classified one, that she, and her intelligence network was destroyed and that Ambassador Wilson told the truth.
I am curious as to whether Fitz will testify, and if he does, what will be revealed.
TeddySanFran @ 145
Good call, we should get on that…
Sorry for the driveby and I apologize for not reading the comments first, so if this has already been mentioned:
Ahem (shuffles feet looks down at feet and mumbles) you may be mad at the wrong guy.
(in an almost inaudable whisper) Gov. Dean is the Chaiman of the Democratic Party, not Harry Reid.
I’m sorry folks, I loves me them Dean Boys (Hiya Jim there, too! How you guys doin’?) I really do. And I am no fan of Harry Reid, who never gives’em hell, when he can find a way to cave and dwaddle.
But the sad fact of it is that the Democratic Party, not the Senate is in charge of these election campaign thingies.
The guy to take to task over matters of Primary Campaign discpline, is (sniff-this is killing me Govenor it really is, I even like your mother) Howard Dean.
I frankly was shocked when I heard about this debae on Fox and wondered if my beloved Howard was out of the country meditiating in a remote monastery in the High Hymalyas when this happened. Maybe he didnt’t know?
I wasn’t one of the original Deaniacs, I was a Clarke girl, but I have come to love me them Deans. Really and truly. So I just don’t understand how this could be happening on Howard Dean’s watch.
TSF @ 145– well Wes Clark mebbe ought to hear from us.
jgabriel @ 34
ouch!!!!!!!!
so glad that we won’t have to witness that spectacle……….
bdu @ 156
This will require monitoring FOX News, something my physician will not allow me to do.
LHP, I thought it was the Nevada Democratic Party’s call, not the DNC’s. Meaning Reid would carry a lot more weight with them than Dean.
But I would like to know if Howard ever said anything, and if not, why not.
Eli @ 106
To answer this, I would say that the term “DLC platform” is misleading.
For one thing, I have no problem with the DLC agenda circa 1988-1992. At that time the New Democrats were comfortable attacking the GOP, but were simply saying that the party needed to get away from issue-politics and the pork-barrel politics that had made big Democratic commttee chairs fat and comfortable. Frankly, the criticisms sounded more like what you’d read in “Crashing the Gate.”
Second, aside from promising to put more cops on the streets, being pro-death penalty, and attacking Sistah Souljah, Clinton really ran as a liberal…just as one not beholden to “special interests.” Clinton only adopted the “triangulation” strategy as a response to the 1994 ass-whooping.
Bottom line, I think quite a few people could have won in 1992 with Perot running. Gore, had he ran. Possibly Cuomo, depending on what the skeletonsin his closet were. The field was actually pretty weak because Bush I’s weakness in the polls was not perceptable 2 years out…he still looked like he could ride Gulf War I to re-election.
Newt Gingrich. For prez. Such an insidious rascal.
The answer to the ? wrt JFK or WJC is RFK. But, he wouldn’t have been beholden to DLC.
imho.
TeddySanFran @ 154
That’s a good question. I plan to watch that as well.
I also wonder if a damage assessment has been completed by the CIA and if we’ll ever get to see it, or even a redacted version of it.
and ok kiddo-posted this the other day risking meteors sent my way-but mattered———
everyone else, just let it slide, don’t ask, is past, but is just something that needed said…..i think anyway. was waiting for the kid to be back to post.
really
here it is-
ok kiddo, the opinion expressed the other day was not shared by me
i only found this place at the end of january, but have found it to be a great resource. one of the reasons is your commentary.
you say things that make me think…….i think whaaaaaaa? then, ok, then, wellllll, then maaaaaaaybe, then oooooooohhhhh…….i get it….and i move my outpost over and take in the new view…….
i don’t always AGREE with you, but what you say makes me think, and it is valuable to me for that reason…..
so, if you’re reading and lurking, my brain needs some real meat to chew on.
so, toss out some more bait, will ya?
========================================
thanks for the bait……….glad you’re back
Eli– here
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..02137.html
LHP — this was a state party decision that nobody would ‘fess up to. Not sure Dean was involved at all. He’s been quiet on it, I think. Harry Reid’s first statement was that he was “happy about FOX sponsoring the debate” and he’s the highest elected Democrat in Nevada. Harry’s been waffling on this since it was announced, and from reports of the bloggers’ conference call, was unclear on the problem with FOX from the start.
Harry’s son, a former Nevada state party chair, is the chair of Hillary’s campaign in Nevada and is advising her on Western issues.
The reason Harry Reid’s involved is that he’s from Nevada, not that he’s the Senate Majority Leader. His not getting it about FOX, though, is of concern generally.
I can say this. If we are still in Iraq come Nov. 2008, and Hillary is the presidential nominee of my party, I will not vote Democratic for the first time in forty-some years.
Blank Kludge @ 164
JFK, RFK, Paul Wellstone. All the promising ones get assassinated or killed in accidents.
dmac @ 166
;0)
TeddySanFran @ 168
I think he gets it.
Face it, fellow Democrats. We’re stuck with a bunch of weenies who are afraid the Republicans will hurt them if they stand up for getting us out of Iraq now. The idea of waiting another year is idiocy. Is this what we said we wanted in November 2006? I didn’t.
space @
162
The Wikipedia must be way off, then.
This is what I am hearing. When a Republican is President, the media must cozy up to the administration to maintain “access.” This is why the media is pro-Republican.
But when he is President, Bill Clinton believes the administration is powerless to control or challenge oft-repeated lies and distortions because you should “never pick a fight with people who buy ink by the barrel.” Even if they are lying about you every single day. If you do fight, they might be even meaner.
Face it, Clinton just lacked the skills to exert control over the media.
angie @ 167
Crikey. Howard, what were you *thinking*?
Does everyone recall that the band-aid on the women’s chin in the photo was a snarky little way to mock Kerry’s Purple Heart?
Mary Alice @ 173
I would like to think you’re wrong. Unfortunately, I do not.
ok kiddo @171
my heart feels glad
Blank Kludge @
164
I think you’re right on that one. He never even occurred to me, because he got tragically cut short.
raven @ 177
Yeah, my mouth curls into a snarl every time I see that photo.
It’s ok, though, she needed that bandaid there. After all, someone had just stolen her neck and gave her a few more chins in it’s place.
I personally think that Dean was prolly pressured by the DINOs, Rahmmy, Schumer and “their” frontrunner Hill who’s good friends with Rupert.
(and mebbe Reid, too)
my WAG.
raven @ 177
Oh yes.
raven @ 177
Of course we do. Like you remember getting kicked in the groin as far back as the fourth grade. And, trust me, for me that’s pretty far back.
I cannot describe my dislike and disrust for the DLC adequately here. It wouldn’t be proper and would be ill mannered to say the least.
space @ 175
We have VERY different views of the nature of the media. You think that the media can be cajoled and intimidated by either party. *I* think that the media is owned exclusively by Republicans, and is therefore much more swayed by Republican cajoling and intimidation. If not for the blogosphere providing an alternative narrative, the media would be even more implacably Republican than it is now.
bdu @ 181
I was resisting making any comments regarding her appearance.
Oklahoma kiddo @
185
That’s OK. We’re nothing but a bunch of angry, vitupertive, foul mouthed and vulgar extremists here anyway.
space said
Face it, republicans own the media.
FoixNews website still has no announcement on the item that’s been at the top of Drudge Report for over an hour now. When’s the last time that happened?
OTOH, you can sign up to receive Ann Coulter’s weekly column for free at Fox’s home page.
I am wondering where precisely egregious is.
Morris Sheppard @ 188
Hey, I’m not an extremist!
raven @ 187
I know. It’s too easy.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 191
Probably doing what we should be doing, taking a break from this whacky blog!
Morris Sheppard @ 193
She looks Republican.
egregious. ;0)
eli,
read your post. was this commentary “planned” obsolescence?
raven @ 194
;0)
Eli @ 195
Now that’s nasty!
Ed*ard Teller @ 197
Heh, not really. I actually wanted to scrap it (or at least seriously rework it) after reading about the new Iraq resolution, but I didn’t have enough time.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 191
Oh you came back!!! I’m so glad.
I’m sorry if I hurt your feelings. Only wanting to help make your messages more effective…maybe I didn’t phrase it well…
As to where I am, I spent about 36 hours thinking I had to withdraw from blogging and then came to my senses.
Good to see you!!!
Hey EG, what it is?
Two thoughts:
Space, why should a president want to “control” the press? Freedom of the press is like…well, you know. I agree with Teddy San Fran and Obama, the more nobel thing to do is ignore Fox and let them stew in their own putrid juices.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 196
Yay! :D
Why are news organizations like MSNBC, CBS etc. not reporting on the news that the 265,000 signatures on the petition accusing Fox of being a right-winged mis-information network convinced the mind of the Nevada Democratic Party to pull away from Fox for their primary medium?
I understand that badgering other news organizations is, well… less than classy. However, in light of the overwhelming support for the accusation, followed by the notion of confirmation by the NDP pulling out should be evidence enough that any badgering is well-founded. Not to mention the increase in ratings…
A little food for thought?
Maybe it’s okay for the Repubs to badger, accuse and mislead. But even if the badgering isn’t misleading, the Dems shy away and any organization that supports Dems follows the leader…?
raven @ 202
I went into stasis or maybe shock after the verdict and plamehouse party. Now its back to work. Jane and Marcy are unbelievably great.
ah, it’s so nice to be here when doggies kiss and make up. What a family!
Morris Sheppard @ 199
It’s nasty because it’s true.
And sorry about the sophomoric joke about appearances, I have a hard time controlling my baser impulses when faced with such idiocy.
Ed*ard Teller @ 207
Im the oldest of 7 wt do you want. This is my destiny.
I do work overseas for reconciliation you know :)
MikeyLUD @ 205
Badger badger badger badger badger…
omg kiddo you are without scruples once you are defended……..omg and you know what i mean………quit stirrin’ the shit pile………….
Ed*ard Teller @ 207
ding!
Ed*ard Teller @ 207
Ew, slurpy wet doggie kisses.
egregious @ 201
Evening egregious. Me too, only I spent several hours coming back to my senses but then came back to FDL. ;)
egregious @ 201
Or did you just start ot get the shakes from withdrawal?
FDL – Cheapest, bestest group therapy ever.
I went into stasis or maybe shock after the verdict and plamehouse party. Now its back to work. Jane and Marcy are unbelievably great.
Speaking of, my father in law seemed to be doing well enough for my wife to come home and then last night he became unresponsive. They did a bunch of stuff with glucose and an endocrinologist is supposed to be looking things over. I know that this is going to be a long haul for an 84 year old but I wish they could do more for him.
Eli @ 210
Are you from Wisconsin?
Eli @ 172
I don’t think the Wikipedia is way off. I think your interpretation of it is. What the DLC was saying back then is that it shared the principles and goals of progressivism, it just disagreed on the methods and tools that should be used to achieve the goals.
For example, a traditional liberal might support a tax on individual cars that are sold with low gas mileage or a mandate that 25% of its cars sold be hybrids. Whereas a New Democrat would have have advocated simply regulating the overall fuel efficiency of a car fleet, and let the automakers and the market decide on what technologies can best solve the problem.
That is a far cry from the modern DLC, which has adopted the GOP’s rhetoric that unfettered corporatism, even corrupt corporatism, should be free from regulations of the dirty fucking hippies.
Oklahoma kiddo @
152
Fuck no.
bdu @208
That you can control them at all makes you a better person than I am.
egregious @ 217
They are up 11 with 1 1/2 minutes left, Go Illini!
space @
39
Great post except for the grammatical error in the last paragraph. That should read “even worse than JFK.”
JFK did more to give us the Vietnam War than any other president but he could hardly top Clinton aiming a missiles at Congress and hitting an aspirin factory in The Sudan and an empty training ground for al Queda in Afghanistan.
Clinton made the Democrats an auxiliary of the Republican Party and handed the Congress to the Republicans Heavy. That’s some charisma all right.
Best, Terry
scarecrow @ 214
Well you’re a better man than I.
But I look better in Louboutins.
The official court shoes of fdl.
OT
Steve Gilliard is very ill, and various folks including Pach and Scarecrow have been pitching in at his blog. This is an older post, but gives background here
Light A Candle for Steve Gilliard start by clicking on an unlit candle, and then follow the instructions at the link- heretakes you through some pages after which you can light a candle.
This is the same site where many candles were lit for Jane, a while back.
Steve is a friend of FDL.
You know I just had a slightly odd experience. I wrote a piece yesterday lambasting an article in the NYT by David Stout on the House Democratic bill on Iraq. I just checked the link I copied because I wanted to verify something (OK, a typo) from it but the link now takes me to a different article on the same subject with the same title today. I’m not a subscriber so I don’t know where it went. My impression is that when they have two such similar stories so close together in time there is usually a link from the more recent one to the previous one but not this time.
raven @ 216
Speaking of, my father in law seemed to be doing well enough for my wife to come home and then last night he became unresponsive. They did a bunch of stuff with glucose and an endocrinologist is supposed to be looking things over. I know that this is going to be a long haul for an 84 year old but I wish they could do more for him.
Raven we are pulling for you. Honestly I have to say that unresponsive is not good. Please come here often and give us updates.
I sometimes think about my mom at 82 and think about things being one phone call away: impossible yet…
(((((raven and family)))))
space @ 218
I don’t think the Wikipedia is way off. I think your interpretation of it is. What the DLC was saying back then is that it shared the principles and goals of progressivism, it just disagreed on the methods and tools that should be used to achieve the goals.
For example, a traditional liberal might support a tax on individual cars that are sold with low gas mileage or a mandate that 25% of its cars sold be hybrids. Whereas a New Democrat would have have advocated simply regulating the overall fuel efficiency of a car fleet, and let the automakers and the market decide on what technologies can best solve the problem.
That is a far cry from the modern DLC, which has adopted the GOP’s rhetoric that unfettered corporatism, even corrupt corporatism, should be free from regulations of the dirty fucking hippies.
What part of
do you think I misinterpreted? Was it the deregulation part, the free trade part, or the Southern conservatives part?
The DLC may have gotten worse, and more hostile to liberals, but they have *always* been pro-business centrists.
and ok kiddo she offered you a completely lovely apology a few threads/days back, if you missed it it’s your own fault…………
it was genuine, i felt…………really.
math teachers rule, humanitarians in all of their craziness rule.
they figure in all of the inconsistensies(sp?)
wager in all of the algorythims(my spelling is atrocious)
and forgive
that you don’t need to spell to do…………you just do
egregious @ 217
No, the Althouse radation would have robbed me of the ability to form complex sentences.
space @ 218
When pray tell did any liberal, let alone the radical Progressives, determine it was best to dump any concern for the majority of Americans and appeal only to the upper and middle classes?
Best, Terry
Morris Sheppard @ 215
Oh you got that right. I had a total meltdown of the soul last summer during one of my Russia trips and the fdl people were so there for me. Children in Asia are alive because of the love here.
I know, awwwww. But seriously. It matters.
Raven we are pulling for you. Honestly I have to say that unresponsive is not good. Please come here often and give us updates.
I sometimes think about my mom at 82 and think about things being one phone call away: impossible yet…
(((((raven and family)))))
I’m sorry, he did come around today and is better.
I have lost both my folks in the last two years and they both lived on the west coast, I did my best and was back and forth tons but it still sucks!
raven at 216– lots of hope heading your family’s way.
Does that badger thing ever stop????
Valley Girl — thanks for the update on Steve G.
Hugh – I had the same problem with the NYT article on Petraeus. Drafting last night I linked to last night’s version, but this a.m., it was slightly different with a different title.
raven @ 234
Weell no not if you are born a badger. It pretty much carries with you until the end of your long and happy badger life.
Go Bucks!
[Mod Note; Please only nest 2 or 3 quotes at a maximum. Any more may break the margins. Thank You.]
Alison Stewart is way hotter than Keith Olberman.
Way.
raven @ 215
Speaking of, my father in law seemed to be doing well enough for my wife to come home and then last night he became unresponsive. They did a bunch of stuff with glucose and an endocrinologist is supposed to be looking things over. I know that this is going to be a long haul for an 84 year old but I wish they could do more for him.
Hugs, Raven (and wife).
raven @ 234
It’s a loop.
Perhaps Bananaphone will be more to your liking. (Blame Olbermann)
Hugh- re: that NYT thing. This has happened before, but only w/ CraPo. Sometimes it is nefarious. Sometimes it is not. The originals can be found via Nexis/Lexis, if you have access.
dmac @ 228
I was aware of that. But thanks. ;0)
angie @ 167
Well having lived in VT while Dean was Governor, this sounds more like the Dean who we progressives loved to hate up there. In those days he was a DLC “centrist” and we all knew he was dying to run for Pres some day.
That said, I loved his incarnation as a Deaniac and was torn between him and Edwards. By the time the primary came to NY, Kerry was a shoo-in, Dean was history and I voted for Edwards.
egregious @ 236
I meant the video? I saw the Dead for the first time in the fieldhouse in Madison in 70 and went up for several Halloweens! I also lived in Wauwatosa when my dad was the fottball coach there in the early 50’s.
egregious,
as a performer and composer, I’m used to the ups and downs of attention performers go through before and after an event. as a performer, I seldom get a sense of letdown after a concert. but after a performance of one of my pieces, I can sometimes go through a major letdown, similar to depression, even if everything went super.
I was thinking a lot of people heavily involved in the Libby trial coverage at fdl would go through something like that the past three days. then I read Marcy’s posts about Vaclev Havel and about talking rugby with Fitz, and realized she is truly, truly major league.
Scarecrow- alas it really isn’t an update on Steve- it’s an older article that gives info as to what the history is. I went to the current site, but couldn’t find anything more recent as to how he is doing. But, I did see your post.
And, I do see some familiar initials on the candle page- ET, cbl, rbg, etc.
raven @ 232
I’m sorry, he did come around today and is better.
I have lost both my folks in the last two years and they both lived on the west coast, I did my best and was back and forth tons but it still sucks!
It totally totally sucks. Both in two years…my heart goes out to you. I lost my prosecutor dad 17 years ago to the day Verdict Day and I am still heartbroken. When it rains it pours sometimes.
That verse about God doesnt give you any more than you can manage is a mistranslation. God doesnt allow you to be tempted without providing a way out. It is perfectly obvious to those of us w chronic mental illness that God in His wisdom does sometimes choose to heap more upon us than we can handle. Why, well, we are patiently waiting to understand.
Woodhall Hollow @ 243
I actually did not like Dean much until *after* his candidacy. I’m a big fan now, though – he’s one of the few Democrats who gets it. Or at least, he *was*…
Ed*ard Teller @ 245
I just talked w her. She is getting ready for the next round.
Stay tuned! [not in a washington post ombudsmanesque kind of way]
Still no mention of the Nevada debate cancelation at Fox’s web site. But they just started running No More S.I. Swimsuit Issue for Schoolkids…
perhaps this has already been mentioned (I’m not quite caught up yet today)… a soldier – a young woman – the Army says she committed suicide in Iraq, but it appears that she was beaten and dragged outside her tent instead just before she died… none of which was documented in the Army’s autopsy (and the Army keeps insisting it was a suicide).
Now, her Daddy is a doctor but I’m sure having the funeral home tell you they had to sew your daughter’s lip back on, you don’t need that medical degree to realize something is rotten here.
of course, it might be getting more attention if she was blond and white.
I am super mad.
C&L has the story and the link.
Ed*ard Teller @ 250
We’re still working on the SI issue w fdl women.
Edit—–Sorry this is right after OC’s report. Not intending to be disrespectful.
Pre-empted by the Libby verdict, and now by the Dems finding their cojones…. hmmmm. I see a strategery here.
When we want to kick some Republibum *ss, have Eli write up a post and the universe itself will race to comply.
Hoo-rah for Eli!
And I swear I haven’t read comments, so if someone else also came to this concluson, I tell you we have the makings of scientific principle.
That verse about God doesnt give you any more than you can manage is a mistranslation. God doesnt allow you to be tempted without providing a way out. It is perfectly obvious to those of us w chronic mental illness that God in His wisdom does sometimes choose to heap more upon us than we can handle. Why we are patiently waiting to understand.
Thich Nhat Hanh’s “no death, no fear” has helped me.
OldCoastie, I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that she did not beat herself to death.
(I suppose it’s possible that she killed herself in response to the beating, but that seems a bit peculiar… and it doesn’t exactly exonerate the military)
Prairie Sunshine @ 253
Heh. They have. But I think it’s more a matter of the universe wanting to make me look bad than anything else.
Eli @ 184
There is no argument that there are huge institutional forces favoring the GOP. Where we disagree is over Clinton’s skill — or even desire — to oppose those forces.
Sure, Clinton can’t single handedly abolish Fox News. But he could refuse to appear on the network. He could use his bully pulpit to attack it as a propaganda mill.
He could also support alternative media sources. If Clinton is so brilliant and has been so screwed over by the media, why didn’t he see the power of blogs early on and support them? Why did he never guest post at dKos or elsewhere?
More importantly, why didn’t he FUND alternative media? Why not call up some rich progressive buddies and say, “Hey, let’s throw a few bucks at these bloggers to make sure that people like Digby or Glenn Greenwald, or sites like firedoglake, never go away”?
Republicans will throw more $$$ at a college intern than Democrats will at some of their most valuable resources. And Clinton is no exception. He’s a semi-talented, old-school politician without much of a stomach for a tough brawl.
woodhall left you a message at the end of the thread at scooter libby is not a good man @ 171
wished i would have been caught up in the threads to offer
((((woodahall))))
Ed*ard Teller @ 245
I am both a performer and composer and agree w your perspective.
Creative people have on/off times and need to learn to respect the cycles. Learning curve.
Ed*ard Teller @
250
clearly more important.
dmac @ 258
Awww dmac! *blushing*
man, i love this place
I admire this man to no end:
“predator becomes more dangerous when wounded”
Washington’s escalation of threats against Iran is driven by a determination to secure control of the region’s energy resources
Noam Chomsky
Friday March 9, 2007
The Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comm…..15,00.html
Eli- just stop the guilt trip you are giving yourself about this post Right Now! Brendan was doing the same thing to himself last night. Do I need to say more? Give you a blink?
Eli @ 255
Democracy Now covered LaVena Johnson’s mysterious death last week. You can sign a petition for re-opening the investigation here. Her parents want a new investigation.
Speaking of Howard Dean, the DNC has not added RGJoe’s radio address to their list of Democratic responses. I have not had a response to my emails on the subject either.
egregious
Sorry to hear about your father-in-law. Mine is also 84 and is now undergoing chemo. I can empathize, to say the least. It’s been very tough on my wife. I’m sending my best wishes and all my hopes you’ll both have all the strength I know you’ll both need.
dmac @ 262
Me 2!
TeddySanFran @ 266
Very interesting TSF- thanks for tracking that.
Riesz Fischer @
238
Even formerly gay pornstar Rod Majors, err, Matt Sanchez agrees with that statement.
-GSD
Eli @
256
It’s magic. Just like Mr. Emptywheel’s fairy. As soon as Marcy invoked it, the verdict came in, or so it seemed on MY end of the toobz *g*.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 263
That’s a great article and Noam is a treasure, indeed.
Eli @ 256
WHAT? ARE YOU CRAZY?
Don’t answer that.
Like Will Smith “I make this suit look GOOD”
You are always lookin good on the blog.
Good luck coming yr way from the Irish in the court and on the blog :)
man, i love this place=====
forgot to add:
((((fdl))))
the view is unbelievable
Morris Sheppard @ 267
It’s raven’s father in law and thank you for all the good wishes and hopes. I think they really help. The power of prayer/positive thoughts.
(((((((Morris and family)))))))
space @ 257
There were bloggers during the Clinton administration? Okay, there was Somerby, who I suspect no-one had heard of yet, but the blogosphere didn’t become any kind of force until well after it would have done Clinton any good. Unless you’re talking about what he should have done after his term ended.
And can you corroborate your claim that Clinton never pushed back against the media? You claimed that the early DLC wasn’t centrist, and that turned out to be wrong – but presidential media pushback 1993-2000 is not an easy Wiki or Google away.
egregious @ 259
As an artist of sorts and having some very good friends who are performers at rather high levels, all I can say is you got that right. Often after the feeling of accomplishment there is a sort of letdown upon finishing something. No one can see all the mistakes and shortcomings in a piece like the creator.
Egregious, I would like you to elaborate on the mistranslation thing. I have always hated when people say that God never loads you up with more than you can bear —hmm I say, what about PTSD?
Eli @ 255
from the article:
yup – qualifies as peculiar, all right…
What is up with the fundies and Newt? The beginning of a movement to freeze Guiliani and his pro-choice, gay-rights, modern blended family self out?
scarecrow @ 235
I commented on the Petraeus piece too. I would like to have someone ask Petraeus if his strategy recognizes that a civil war is going on, not an insurgency. I also wish they would at least add in the Iraqi frame to that given by Petraeus. Petraeus: sectarian violence down; car bombs continuing versus Iraqi frame: Shia lying low while US fights it out with the Sunni, hence less death squad activity and continuing car bombs. The first sounds hopeful, the second frame, not so much.
Valley Girl @ 264
Hey, I never said it was *crappy*.
(I only *thought* it – figured if I didn’t point it out, maybe no-one would notice)
Morris,
Even if the piece goes 100% well there is a letdown.
Ever see Chariots of Fire, when the one guy wins the race and is despondant? “Leave him alone, he just won”
(Clinton sure as hell pushed back on Chris Wallace, but that was after his term, of course)
Eli @ 282
Hey, I never said it was *crappy*.
(I only *thought* it – figured if I didn’t point it out, maybe no-one would notice)
Busted.
You are surrounded by people who notice, who think you’re fab, and who want you to keep writing. Often.
OldCoastie @ 279
So she tried to set herself on fire after beating herself didn’t work? That seems a very odd suicide strategy for someone with easy access to guns…
egregious @ 285
Well, you’re very sweet. But like Brendan, I see every flaw (because I struggled with it and unsuccessfully tried to fix it), and I always assume they’re glaringly obvious to everyone else, too.
I’m always amazed that anyone thinks I’m worth reading, to be perfectly honest.
Tithonia @ 278
I am a Christian from birth, from 7 plus generations back, and I’m here to tell you:
God OFTEN sends you more than you can handle. True even for people who aren’t mentally ill.
It is a cruel translation.
Also it never says anywhere in the Bible that God helps those who help themselves. Tho it does often say we should help each other.
Eli @ 286
For a family to have to deal with that is more than anyone should have to bear.
Eli @ 287
Ok well don’t believe that little voice in yr brain, believe us, who think you’re amazing.
Try it.
Here’s a mindblower: even those of us who see your glaring errors STILL find you amazing.
Ponder THAT.
dmac @ 228
I saw it too, it was very sincere but I don’t know …….what happend?
Omigod! Morris Shepherd is THE Morris Shepherd. My wife’s sister in NM has one of your arts & crafts chairs. It is some piece of work, sir.
egregious @ 290
I actually have a theory about this, but it’s too long to post here. Maybe a post of its own someday, either here or at my place.
egregious @ 283
Yeah.
I’ve seen people (actually a friend) come off stage after an absolutely stunning and brilliant performance in front of 20,000 people who literally screamed for minutes in appreciation and look like he’s just witnessed a horrible accident. But, I guess after something like that anything would be a let down.
Just got home. Nice post Eli !
That woman’s face is perfect. The arrogance of ignorance. It’s like someone ordered her up from central casting !
Now for some more “pain go bye-bye juice ” !
Oh, don’t worry, Eli. We don’t actually read what you have written. We just come here to talk to the other interesting folks on the thread.
/snark
But, we do like you.
Yeah.
I’ve seen people (actually a friend) come off stage after an absolutely stunning and brilliant performance in front of 20,000 people who literally screamed for minutes in appreciation and look like he’s just witnessed a horrible accident. But, I guess after something like that anything would be a let down.
Yeah, I felt that way when the Bears won the Superbowl in 85. It’s the process not the outcome!
Valley Girl @ 296
God, I hope so.
Ed*ard Teller @ 292
Which chair? I’m dying to know. How did she get it?
Tithonia @ 278
I think that people who say that lack either imagination or compassion or both.
Eli- talk about reporting things out of context!!!!
But but but Egregious what is the real translation?
Fern @ 300
Both, which is why they are very often conservatives without a conscience.
Eli @ 298
Unfortunately, we actually do read what you write. Fortunately, we love it. Don’t ever stop.
dmac @ 274
me too ;)
woodhall at 261
meant every word
i was the wife of a coach-highly public, knew what you went through in public opinion…..
the hugs were real ones.
Hugh (you know Hugh?) is now upstairs.
Morris Sheppard @ 304
Aw, shucks. I still keep expecting it to just… dry up, but I’m still trickling.
Ya’ll mofo’s lighten up on Egregious!
(That sounded maybe a little too much like a medical condition…)
Hugh done saved your sorry asses!
raven @ 311
Huzzah!
Or maybe “Hughzzah!”…
Eli @ 312
I loved your post Eli. Thank you so much.
Morris Sheppard @ 299
I think they got it about fifteen years ago when they lived in Louisiana. I think they bought it in North Carolina at a show that combined old and new arts and crafts stuff, which they collect.
Her husband and I aren’t talking, because he thinks I’m anti-Semitic for being sympathetic to the Palestinians. I’ll see how my wife does finding out for you.
The chair is simple and elegant, not like the one on your web page. I’ve also read about you in Architectural Digest.
Thanks, lolo, and everyone else for the kind words. I’m feeling pretty good about the next two or three posts.
Eli @ 308
We all expect out talents to whither up and blow away some day. Sometimes we think the last piece proves that. maybe it’s just the nature of the beast.
I’m sorry for
the things I’ve done,
I’ve shamed myself with lies,
My cruelty has punctured me
And now I’m running dry.
Morris Sheppard @ 299
I don’t know what kind of chairs you do but my Spindler cousin in France does marquetry chairs among other works. Are you familiar w his work?
I have the same fear every time I pick up my camera: What if this time I don’t “see” anything? And of course, everyone else thinks my photos are much better than I do…
Ed*ard Teller
Let me know if you find out. Doesn’t ring a bell. Maybe it’s the drugs. Heh.
Tithonia @ 302
Better translation:
God will not allow you to be tempted without providing a way out.
I’ve got quite a story about this but another time.
Vastly different from saying that He won’t heap more on you that you can stand. From my mentally ill Christian perspective, that’s not only incorrectly translated but cruel.
Fern @ 300
Fern, amen and amen.
egregious @ 317
Not offhand. Is there a website I can see his work? If you want to see my poor efforts you can check out my site (click on the name)
Eli @ 318
Maybe we’re all delusional or maybe you actually have some hidden talent. Perhaps deeply hidden. But some of us can see.
egregious @ 323
From me, anyway. Ever read Queen Of Angels, by Greg Bear?
Morris Sheppard @
319
I will! Off to see the first night of the Banff Mountain Film festival.
Eli @ 324
amazon.com….”Queen of Angels”….buy with 1-click….it’s just too easy. Tx for the rec.
egregious @ 326
*Only* if you’re a person who is not allergic to sci-fi. And the language takes some getting used to – the future has kind of a different vocabulary. But it’s one of the most amazing books I’ve ever read.
Eli @ 327
Hardly allergic. Well, to that anyway. From a linguistics family that learns new languages for the heck of it. So the diff vocab sounds cool. Thx!!
You should like it, then. The theory of mind that Bear uses in the book really resonated with me.
I am a liberal and I find this talk by Eli to be poison. Some times you have to have a little faith in your leaders that you elected. Did you read the article in The Hill about David Obey? The democrats are working hard but they are being hounded by both the Republicans and their own party base. Remember the Dems have been in power for two months. Let us have some peace from the criticism Eli. Breathing room is required to get the job done. We need to support them, not attack them. Don’t give up hope people. The home team might be behind but it is still the bottom of the first.
-Dan
Dan @ 330
I understand and sympathize with the sentiment, but they *must* oppose, and they have not. They were elected to oppose. If they do not oppose, they must be shamed into it. Or primaried.
There were all manner of awful bills and nominees they could and should have filibustered, and didn’t. If there’s a plan beyond “let the Republicans hang themselves”, I’m not seeing it.
I am sorry; Eli, but you are flat wrong. You are so ready to look for fault that you can’t step back and feel the change in the air.
You must get your facts straight. The Dems are opposing the war and 50 other issues with everything they can within the limits of their power. For instance John Conyers has been investigating the administration since its beginning. It is only until now that they can do anything. Plame will be on the stand next week for-crying-out-loud. Have you not notices the amount of investigation congress is doing now? That is their job; congressional oversight.
However the Dems have an uphill battle as their majority is fragile and the Democratic Party does not do lock step well. To expect them to is to not understand what it is to be a Democrat. They can’t just hold a simple up or down vote against the war because it will fail. Not just for now but for 08 as well. Congress is biggest power is to make bills but those bill can’t become law without the President’s signature. A majority is simply not enough. Understand?
So they have to take less direct routes. The Dems are not homogenous. Not all Dem were elected to stop the war despite what you think but for other reasons. There are conservative Dems and liberal Dems. Everyone has their own plan for how to stop the war. Laws are not changed by screaming loudly but by give and take and persuasion. The democratic leadership has to make bills that will be acceptable to as many Democrats as they can as well as some Republicans. This takes time. Time you are unwilling to give.
Also, how liberal is posting unflattering pictures of other people Eli?
-Dan
the only way this country will get back on track is to put dirty, crooked, waffling harry reid on the back bench. he is horrible. wants to hold closed door meetings, cut backroom deals like he has with a series of terrible wilderness/development bill schemes. any one who criticizes hilary for being in bed with the powers of darkness – needs to look long and hard at how AWFUL harry reid is.
Please let me express my thanks to Rep. Obey for providing me with a much needed sense of personal identity.
I’m proud to be a card-carrying idiot liberal.
I think David Obey is right, leaders of liberal groups and people who make comments like Eli’s are making their job even harder than what it already is. Obey expressed his frustration with the whole Fubar and it was captured on video for every pundit to dissect into fragmented nonsense. I ask all of you if you have ever gotten angry in your life and said things you later regretted?
It is clear from his comments that he is sorry he made the comments but more importantly he is firmly against the war. He is working to stop it but that is not good enough for people who think that a democracy can turn on a dime. Uninformed liberals are just as dangerous as uninformed conservatives.
Do you really think the Dems could have stopped the nominations of Roberts and Alito? Do you really think they wanted the most of the bills passed by the Republican majority? Are you forgetting that the president has veto power and the Democrats do not have enough votes to overcome that bill killer. Leave the blame for these bills where it originated, the Republican leadership. Before passing judgment on your own guys at least read the bills.
-Dan
Riesz Fischer @
238
I agree. Better eye candy. But can she do a smackdown like Keith? I doubt it.
Bob in HI
Morris Sheppard @
294
Experienced performers are usually more acutely aware of performance issues than most people who see their performance. Performers are often more acutely aware of mistakes, bad decisions, lines flubbed, opportunities missed, etc., than 95% of the people in their audience. This applies as much to the FDL livebloggers and politics.tv performers as to musicians on a stage. However, musicians or actors on a stage become more hyper-aware because they can SEE their audience*. Marcy, Jane, Christy and the others know in their minds that they have a big audience, but that’s not quite the same as seeing and hearing them. Nevertheless, it is not uncommon for performers to become hyper-aware, which usually means they’re on an adrenaline high– and you can only do that for so long before crashing.
Of course, it also depends on whether you’re an introvert or an extrovert, and lots of other things, too. Heck, as a borderline introvert, just teaching a class with 200 people is enough to set me up for a crash afterwards.
Bob in HI
*Well, actually, performers often have bright stage lights shining right in their faces, which make it darn near impossible to see anyone in the audience, except maybe the front row. But you can hear them, and feel their energy.
Twisted Martini @
17
This begins to approach the problem. Going back to an old but true vein. There is only one party! Two groups vie for the Byzantine Control Structure.
Personally I believe Regan solidified the effect.
Eli, you’ll get to use this post again, probably in a month or so. Reid’s a really slow learner on this stuff, and Pelosi’s no more than average speed at learning this, IMO.
They’d still be ‘debating’ on Faux, if Richardson hadn’t decided to pull out and left them with, um, nobody much to debate with.