
Either the jury system and the judicial process matters to the Bush White House and to Republicans, along with that whole, pesky GOP talking point "Do the crime, do the time" – or it doesn't.
Here is what I know: sometimes, even seemingly decent people commit crimes. And when they do, they ought to be punished in the same way that everyone else is — because they have committed crimes. Perhaps it is the prosecutor in me saying this but, honestly, you commit a crime for which you are convicted, then you are sentenced, and you carry out your sentence and pay the penalty for your criminal conduct. Period. End of story. There is a very simple way to not have to deal with prison: do not commit a crime.
Libby made a series of bad choices: he lied, repeatedly, to the FBI, to the Grand Jury under oath, all to cover up for the Vice President of the United States and for his own poor choices. For those poor choices of his own making, he was convicted by a unanimous vote of a jury of his peers, and he should pay the penalty for this. No one, no matter their station in life, no matter their connections or political affiliation — no one — should be allowed to repeatedly and manipulatively lie to a grand jury under oath or to criminal investigators without consequences. It is wrong, whomever may be doing it, and Libby is no exception to the rule of law.
As for Dick Cheney and the rest of the White House Iraq Group cronies at the White House, up to and including President Bush, who were involved at all levels of pushback on Joe Wilson's questioning of their motives and actions? They bear responsibility for all of this as well, and it is up to folks in the public sphere to look into this further, including journalists, members of Congress and all of us.
It isn't as though I don't expect substantial hypocrisy from these people on a daily basis, but the immediate calls for a pardon from such self-serving quarters as the WSJ editorial page — which tries the exceedingly unlikely tack of attempting to guilt George Bush into a pardon by calling him on the carpet for not doing his job well – and Bob Novak's self-serving screed of an op-ed (truly two shilling peas in the same, rotting Republican pod) give off the odor of desperation. Especially on Novak's part this morning — this is hilarious:
George W. Bush lost control of this issue when he permitted a special prosecutor to make decisions that, unlike going after a drug dealer or Mafia kingpin, turned out to be inherently political. It would have taken courage for the president to have aborted this process. It would require even more courage for him to pardon Scooter Libby now, and not while he is walking out of the White House in January 2009.
Apparently, in Bob Novak's world, "courage" is defined as making decisions in a way that is subservient to Novak's gargantuan ego. What are the odds that President Bush will put his own interests aside to serve Novak's? Hmmmmmmm? (Pretty slim, if an interview with Bush on CNN Espanol is to be believed.) Sorry Bob, looks like you'll have to seek your reputation rehab from another source — Rove has other plans.
Speaking of Rove and plans, Sidney Blumenthal follows up on yesterday's revelation of some press folks begging for scraps from Rove's table with this inside tale of palace intrigue.
In a note entered as a trial exhibit, Cheney expressed his concern that his chief of staff was being thrown to the wolves while Rove was being protected. "Not going to protect one staffer and sacrifice the guy that was asked to stick his neck in the meat grinder," the note read. Despite the dramatic opening, Libby's defense made no reference to the note during the trial. In yet another mysterious lapse, although Libby's lawyers repeatedly gave every indication to Judge Reggie Walton that both Libby and Cheney would testify, neither did. In a perjury trial, if the defendant does not look the jury in the eye and say he did not lie or that he made an honest error, it's difficult to win. But Libby never appeared as a witness on his own behalf; Cheney was not called; and the defense rested on the thin reed of Libby's weak memory and the supposed impeached credibility of journalists. The feeble defense amounted to a verdict foretold….
Just as Fitzgerald was about to indict Rove for perjury and obstruction of justice, Rove got a lucky break. A reporter for Time magazine, Viveca Novak, a colleague of Cooper's and privy to his conversation with Rove, became consumed with an overwhelming desire to be an important inside dopester, and she rushed to inform Rove's lawyer, Robert Luskin, about Cooper's information. Suddenly, Rove produced an e-mail from Cooper that he had not produced to the prosecutor for a year, refreshed his memory, altered his testimony, and was off the hook. (Novak did not tell her editors or Cooper of her freelancing, and she was forced to resign, in effect sacrificing her career to save Rove by the skin of his teeth.) Libby was left to take the fall alone….
What bearing might this have on Libby's weak defense? Why didn't Libby and Cheney testify? Observing the trial as it developed, Cheney may have decided Libby would lose and that his becoming a witness was beside the point. Ultimately, did Cheney's self-protective calculation trump loyalty to his loyalist?
Did something change in the defense after its opening statement about Rove (Libby "will not be sacrificed so Karl Rove can be protected") that led to its refusal to follow up during the trial? Did the prosecutor have new information that has not yet been made public about Libby and Cheney? If so, that evidence would have been irrelevant to the precise charges against Libby but might have come into play if Libby and Cheney testified. Their appearances might have made them vulnerable to additional perjury and obstruction charges if they were found to have lied on the stand. But who might have proved that?
The missing piece in the extensive evidence and testimony that detailed the administration's concerted attack on Wilson, orchestrated by Cheney, is the conversations among Libby, Cheney — and Rove. Rove had made a deal with Fitzgerald. Rove changed his testimony, escaped prosecution and went back for a fifth time before the grand jury. Fitzgerald owned Rove.
Only if Libby and Cheney appeared could Fitzgerald cross-examine them about their discussions with Rove, which presumably Rove had already testified about before the grand jury. Rove was the hostile witness against Cheney whom the prosecution had waiting in the wings, the witness who was never called. If Libby had come to the stand in his own defense, and summoned Cheney as well, Fitzgerald might have been prompted to call Rove from the deep to impeach Libby's and Cheney's credibility and reveal new incriminating information about them. Instead, Libby remained silent, Cheney flew off to Afghanistan and Rove never appeared. Rove was the missing witness for the prosecution.
According to Sidney, Rove and Bush have been going about their regular business this week — hosting the regular book club, hanging out for dinner together — all the while Dick Cheney has been jetting around the globe, while his former trusted aide was sitting in the Prettyman courthouse awaiting the verdict of a jury of his peers. And if the plan was, indeed, to hold Rove in reserve as an impeachment witness for Vice President Cheney and Libby, what, do you think, are the actual odds on a pardon?
Who holds more sway with George Bush — Rove or Cheney?
Think about that for a moment. Is that the balance on which you want to hang your family's future, if you are Libby? If it is Rove, there will be no pardon. He regards the people who fail in their tawdry political missions in the same disdain as the people against whom such smear invectives are launched. And after the offensive lobbed against Rove in the opening statements of the Libby trial, the President's choice for verdict week dining was with Rove? Message sent.
Suddenly, the desperation with which the "pardon me" troops have been dispatched is much more clear, isn't it?
Victoria Toensing's disastrous round robin appearances on verdict day were stunning in their chattery, substanceless, shrill tap dancing — she was nervous, she was easily thrown off by any questions being asked of her by interviewers who were no longer buying her false legal spin and, more than telling, she was unprepared for the sudden media barrage because her haircolor had to be seen to be believed (Not to be catty, but honestly no one, and I mean no one, goes on camera that unprepared unless they are desperately hustled out into the limelight at the last minute — and given then fact that we had all been sitting around waiting for a verdict for days and days? The lack of planning was stunning. It smacked of desperate last-minute shoving in front of a camera.). The same goes for Rush Limbaugh's unfortunate choice of bear metaphors in discussing the Libby verdict — the allusion to cages and sticks cannot be far behind, now can it?
Why the desperation? I'd ask Mary Matalin and Barbara Comstock, who have long been the shrill twin harpies of Dick Cheney's PR machine in this matter. Sounds to me like Dick and Lynne are none too happy with the legacy of corrupted stench and vindictiveness that the Libby trial has deposited squarely on the Vice President's doormat.
And I've started to wonder if that won't translate into some pushback against Rove and others in the Bush White House. And whether the Libbys have begun to fully comprehend the fact that Cheney is, first and foremost, going to protect his own reputation — even if that protection comes at the expense of Libby's own interests. Because for Cheney to pushback on Rove or Bush is not going to make either egomaniac happy, and that isn't exactly the best of recipes for begging for a pardon for a former subordinate who has been protecting you, now is it?
Emptywheel and I were talking this morning, and she has a theory on where Novak's allegiance may now lie. It's intriguing, and she'll have more up on it at Next Hurrah soon, but I wanted to give everyone a heads up to look for it.
Finally, I wanted to call this Colbert Report piece to everyone's attention because it cracked me up this morning.
Related posts:
- The Bush Fairy Tale on the Libby Pardon
- The Taxpayers Paid Dick Cheney’s Personal Defense Attorney to Obstruct Any Inquiries Into His Crimes
- Cheney Refused to Release the Journalists
- Cheney’s Lawyer Already Leaked the Content of Cheney’s “Privileged” Interview
- The Fitzgerald-Cheney Interview: What Don’t We Know That We Don’t Know?





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c’mon Congress!
Thanks again Christy! I learn so much here.
morning, CHS!
come on, Scoots – cough it up. W does not have your back…
way way off topic
I’ve got plans to spend a couple of weeks in WV state parks. Any guide book recommendations?
I wonder how long we have to wait to find out who Mrs. Scooter wants her husband to “f*ck” over the Scootmeister’s treatment.
Dick: “Lynne, there’s a flaming bag of dogpoo on our front stoop!”
Lynne: “Oh, that Bob Novak, what a card!”
Of course he’ll be pardoned. Probably not untill the Preznit’s last day. Is there any doubt?
Toles has a great cartoon this morning:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/….._main.html
I do not think impugning the BoyKing’s courage will sit well with Him.
Well done, Christy! Excuse me, but “George W. Bush lost control of this issue when he permitted a special prosecutor to make decisions ” Just what were Bush’s powers to interfere? And it sounds like Toensing has Cheney’s & Rumsfeld’s project planning skills if she was that unprepared with her hair color!
Jay at 4 — I don’t have a guidebook recommendation, but I would suggest a couple of lovely places. The lodge at Blackwater Falls is lovely, there are great trails there and many others within easy driving distance at other state parks. If you golf, Canaan Valley and Pipestem are quite nice — and the scenery around them is equally lovely. And, if you get a chance, hiking through the boardwalks at Cranberry Glades is heavenly.
Christy – that’s a great post!
However, you must edit it to include a link to a Youtube or other video to a Toensing appearance on verdict day. I didn’t see her reaction. Your description of her appearance makes me desperately want to see that hair!
LandOfTheFree at 12 — I’m talking to Amato about getting something up at C&L — will update if they ave time to put something together for me.
I mentioned this last night and wonder what today’s teevee will bring: yesterday two of the jurors told MSNBC shows that they think a Libby pardon would be fine, even preferred. Tweety ate it up, Lawrence O’Donnell was a bit taken aback.
Where is the outrage?
Ouchie by Mark Fiore
http://www.sfgate.com/comics/fiore/
His take on the military hospitals.
I find it rather interesting that Wells was successful in sticking the “Libby is the fallguy” meme with the jurors, even though he offered no evidence to support the claim. It really goes to show how much Rove, and Cheney too, are thought of with high disrespect.
Perhaps Wells sensed that it was unlikely Scooter would get off of all the charges, and putting him on the stand might actually make it MORE likely that he’d be convicted – the jurors might see through that he’s not as confused & bumbling as they wanted to portray.
But Christy nails it on the head when she says that sometimes nice (seeming!) people can do bad things. He lied, and it doesn’t matter if he looks like a nice fella, he is a felon.
More NPR inanity: On Morning Edition, they’re interviewing a guy named Austin Bey about USMC lingo, anacronyms and nicknames in Iraq. The term “bobbit” came up, and Bey defines it as a putdown of behind-the-lines soldiers, relegating them to the status of “Hobbits.” Uh, calling John Bobbit, calling John Bobbit, or at least the stitched together John Bobbit…
Rene Montaigne and Steve Inskeep played along with the clueless Bey. What a bunch of Bobbits. LMAO…
From the NYTimes:
Ed*ard Teller @ 6
Yeah, me too! I really would like to know what that was about! ANY answer to the question would be very interesting, regardless of what it might be.
Ben Sargent – great cartoon!!!
http://www.uclick.com/client/wpc/bs/
Stuart Carlson – great cheney/libby toon
http://www.uclick.com/client/wpc/sc/
Biodun quotes Love via NYT:
Well, Bush never worries about justifying his actions. Heck, we thought it would be impossible for him to justify pre-emptive war (or should I call that pre-meditated war). Bush is very resourceful in doing whatever he damn well pleases, precedent and law and justice be damned.
If Isikoff and Hosenball’s “web exclusive” was discussed earlier, could someone point me to the post where this was discussed?
Not that they’ve ever let rules or guidelines get in their way before, but apparently
Love your posts Christy…
Question for you…
Is there any possibility that Fitz could call Libby back to testify before a grand jury in the event he is pardoned and in that case he would need to testify on issues not previously addressed in his testimony?
Tony Auth has the perps lineup!
http://www.uclick.com/client/wpc/ta/
gotta go, lossely skimmed post – in prev. discussions about the impact for Mrs. Libby – it was agreed Scooter gets no pension money as a convicted felon, right ???
Christy – that pic, jeebus, bring back the Ann Coulter Tapeworm *g*
Ed*ard Teller – just saw -2 deg. and blizzard warnings for you – stay safe and warm
mad progressive love to all Firedogs
i wholeheartedly agree:
it is high time that congress convene
hearings into what cheney knew — what
he ordered — and whom he used to get it done.
we all know, from the trial evidence, that
scooter libby’s defining characteristic
is loyalty — fealty — never, ever was he
a “rogue” agent cheney cut loose. . .
no, he was, almost certainly, and
according to special prosecutor patrick
fitzgerlad, the most loyal, and dutiful,
and careful of hand-servants to the
vice president. . .
so — how much of this sordid mess did
dick cheney personally oversee/order/direct?
we, the people, are owed an answer.
an answer in small words, and in
short sentences. from his own mouth.
you are our servant, mr.
cheney — not the other way around. . .
much more available here. . .
I am fascinated with Bush’s comparison between himself and Churchill.
He seems to be saying that because he is a believer, he is not moved by the things that move normal people- like being thought an idiot or a criminal- because he believes in God..
There’s some missing logic there? A normal human knows shame and guilt and takes responsibility for his decisions and mistakes. Bush seems to think that because he believes in God, he is not subject to such feelings…Does he still believe- despite all the evidence to the contrary, that he’s doing God’s will? That’s the missing piece. You can’t make any sense out of what he saying unless you assume that he believes that God’s telling him to do what he’s doing.
crikey ! one more thing – got some money on Congresswoman Wilson being the USA’s ‘fall guy’
Not Your Night Heather !
Now that Libby is a convicted felon, the pressing question for FDL and the progressive blogosphere is the following:
How do we take maximal advantage of Libby’s conviction to aim the sunlight of inquiry into the catacombs of the Bush Administration’s lies that led us to war?
It seems to me that we, the progressive blogosphere, have entered a new phase of involvement in the Libby saga.
We have passed through a veil from the stage of analysis and reflection on the investigation and trial, into a stage of political action to ensure that the outcome of the trial is utilized to the fullest.
To paraphrase Jane, each of us needs to step up and complete the heroic work that was begun by Fitzgerald.
In order to do that, I look forward to collective brainstorming here at FDL as to what is the most effective way to leverage our collective voices, talents and resources to keep the spotlight on Libby and Cheney and to force further investigations and inquiry.
Once we decide on a strategy, we need to treat this cause just like we did the November 2006 elections and go all-out.
After all, we have been watching and analyzing long enough – won’t it be fun to actually feel like we can step into Fitzgerald’s shoes and keep the investigation going as it evolves from the courtroom to the halls of Congress?
My own belief is that we should start a coordinated phone call and letter writing campaign to our representatives to immediately begin an investigation into the events that led to the outing of Valerie Plame.
Part of this Congressional investigation must involve a request from Congress to Fitzgerald to gain access to all available information that he gathered during the course of his investigation.
We need to pressure Congress to take action.
We have the majority.
We have the truth.
We have the power.
Let’s use it.
Remember, folks, to stop at Media Matters for all your Libby-apologist-debunking needs!
What are the federal rules on contact with members of a jury, either by defense lawyers, their surrogates or the prosecution for that matter, after a verdict? Has anyone asked juror Redington if she has had any such contact?
TeddySanFran @ 7
Plug your nose.
Fascinating that TradMed trumpets Wells’ “success” in getting the jury to agree that Scooter’s the fall guy. Properly, they would report that “despite the jury’s agreement with Mr Wells that Mr Libby may have been a fall guy for others, they found his client guilty on four of five felony counts…”
Sadly, though, today’s meme is that Wells succeeded with the jury.
rw at 28 — I found that fascinating as well. My upbringing as the grandchild of a minister was that, as a child of God, my responsibility to do the right thing was greater — the ethics responsibility was to live up to the example of goodness, not to excuse myself for whatever I wanted to do just because I could ask for forgiveness. Bush appears to have missed that concommitent issue of personal resonsibility and free will correct decisionmaking component altogether and gone right to the forgiveness no matter the sin if you ask correctly portion. But, in my mind, forgiveness is something you earn — not just demand. Even though I’m not the churchgoer I once was — the whole “live the ethics” portion of my upbringing sticks with me.
Morning all,
The idea of Libby getting a pardon after all this makes me sick to my stomach.
jayackroyd @ 5
I know Christy is an expert but just to add that is a great book call The New West Virginia One Day Trip Book by Colleen Anderson that has all the hot spots of West-By-God-VA in it. I have spent a lot of time in Cannaan Valley which I recomend. Lots of hiking and mountain biking. The Down hill skiing is short but there is great cross country sking at White Grass in the winter.
cbl – I’m bundled up and keeping out of the wind as often as possible. Spring is right around the corner.
More OT from ET. I suggest we find an expert to write an fdl essay on how our women soldiers are faring in the mix of soldier/Vet problems emerging. They are often forgotten. Here’s a quote from a Salon.com article on how awful it is for our female soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan:
Col. Janis Karpinski caused a stir by publicly reporting that in 2003, three female soldiers had died of dehydration in Iraq, which can get up to 126 degrees in the summer, because they refused to drink liquids late in the day. They were afraid of being raped by male soldiers if they walked to the latrines after dark. The Army has called her charges unsubstantiated, but Karpinski told me she sticks by them. (Karpinski has been a figure of controversy in the military ever since she was demoted from brigadier general for her role as commander of Abu Ghraib. As the highest-ranking official to lose her job over the torture scandal, she claims she was scapegoated, and has become an outspoken critic of the military’s treatment of women. In turn, the Army has accused her of sour grapes.)
Karpinski and others are understandably pissed.
Desperate people do desperate things.
The guys in this administration are acting as if there aren’t going to be any history books to analyze their legacy of depravity.
Yikes.
CDS:
Interesting post, and something well worth considering indeed. As to your point about how unprepared Toensing looked on verdict day wherever she popped up, I thought the same myself but then dismissed it as how could she not be prepared with an impending verdict? However since then it occurs to me that she may well have genuinely believed this was an empty case that would never get a successful conviction (how anyone no matter how partisan could have thought that given all that was out there to show it was a solid case notwithstanding) and therefore never prepared herself to deal with multiple convictions on all but the weakest charge (#3) because she was prepared to do victory dances/celebrations instead. I don’t really know, but watching Wolf Blitzer of all people knocking her off her stride repeatedly was both a pleasure and a bit disconcerting given her performances prior were usually a bit better handled (not that I would agree with what she was saying, just in terms of her actual performance itself) than on Fitzmas Day.
As for Novak, well what else can one expect from the douche bag of liberty (thank you Jon Stewart for that moniker, it fits so well) except excrement of this nature? If he was smart he would be keeping a low profile since he has been proven to be a tool and a dupe used to out a CIA NOC despite his so called decades of Washington experience which should have given him reason to be far more careful about this revelation than he chose to be. After all, this was leaked for several weeks to several reporters but it was only Novak that actually was willing to run with it. Now, once Novak broke it then some of the others did stories, but it was Novak and Novak alone that was the sole “journalist” willing to risk outing a CIA asset despite being asked not to by the CIA itself. Incidentally, I loved his spin about how he uses the word operative, as I have read Novak from the 80s onwards and he only ever uses that word in connection to CIA when he is referring to someone on the operations side and not an analyst. I was really surprised when he tried that weak defence given I knew he was either lying or misremembered his own past work (given his age I have to consider the latter possibility as a viable one) and how he used that word related to the CIA.
In any event, the pardon guessing game is going to be a hot topic for some time I suspect. What will be really interesting is if Libby ends up having to do his appeals from jail after his sentencing. Will that prompt a pardon; will it prompt Libby to give Fitzgerald more, who can say? Not that Libby deserves a pardon of course, but that has been the GOP way to cover up for the several Administrations’ criminal actions when they have been caught from Nixon to Reagan/Bush (Iran-Contra) and now Bush 43. Amazing how it always seems to come from the same party and indeed the same circle within that party, and yet thanks to pardon power they keep being able to come back and do more damage to America and the world. A sad commentary on the state of political affairs in Washington indeed.
Signe Wilkinson has a nice cartoon @:
http://www.uclick.com/client/wpc/wpswi/
About the only thing the WaPo is good for these days is links to good political cartoons. Everything else is getting so bad that Kay Graham must be rolling in her grave.
Um, about the hair color. Maybe it is that the kool-aide is connected at the roots?
The jury system and the judicial process matters to the Bush White House and to Republicans only when they can use it to their advantage. A pardon would be further proof of this.
Christy, another really excellent analysis. Thanks. I’m already sickened by the idea that the jurors could so casually suggest a pardon for Scooter. After reading the NYT article this morning about Joe and Valerie Wilson moving to New Mexico, away from all their friends, all I could think of was the financial difficulties both of them must be facing at this point. They both seem to be fairly private people, and although I can understand Valerie writing a book in order to get out her side of the story, agreeing to movie rights to her story is, I suspect, driven by financial need. While I am confident that two such bright and personable people as they are will manage to get their lives back on track eventually, the hardship that they are currently facing in so many areas of their lives is nothing short of infuriating. Libby be damned. What about the Wilsons?
Go here to see what Novak has to say in his column today about David Boies, and about a pardon.
Thanks, Christy, for this. Two thoughts run through my mind about pardons. First, they usually either reflect a concensus that the law violated was so abhorrently immoral (think Jim Crow laws) that no crime should attach to violating them, or they reflect the contrition of the convict who, as BarbinMD at Daily Kos points out, accepts the pardon for crimes committed. So Scooter would have to, on one level, admit the crime in order to not do the time – that seems unlikely, at least in the short term.
When pardons don’t fall under those two general categories – think Cap Weinberger or Marc Rich – that they become a stain on the process and an albatross on the pardoner.
What I can’t figure out is whether Bush puts more weight on his legacy or on his unbridled ability to do anything he wants ‘cuz he’s Preznit. I certainly don’t think Turdblossom will let him do anything before November 2008.
Hey all — Jane will be on Stephanie Miller shortly. Just FYI!
Saint Brigid @ 38
Wasn’t Bush recently hinting that he’s alot like George Washington? Now that’s an inflated sense of legacy.
the government is a criminal conspiracy. it is likely prosecutable under RICO laws due to the involvement of manipulation of the private sector, and the use of government funds for personal gain
talking about these people in anything other than gang terms is not conducive to the end goal. This is just a group of gang members working on taking out their enemies.
their enemies are the people that make up the citizenry of their own country. we, the people, need to realize that this is a war, against us.
Imagine if a Democratic administration had outed a CIA agent in order to silence dissenting voices on a war it had started, and Republicans controlled both houses of Congress.
Every member of the administration involved in any way would have been hauled before multiple committees of both houses of Congress.
The Republicans would have passed the Super-Secret CIA Identity Act, making disclosing a CIA officer’s identity a capital offense.
They would have pushed the special prosecutor to dig around for years and years and see if they could dig up any other dirt, no matter how unrelated.
Fox News would be 24/7 complaining about Democrats who can’t be trusted with our national security if they can’t do something as simple as keep classified information classified, and covert operatives covert.
Impeachment proceedings would have begun some time in 2003? 2004?
Thanks, Christy, for your take on this. Watching juror 10 on Tweety’s show last night made my head hurt. She wanted Scooter pardoned because he seemed like a nice guy?!?
Hey gang, I could use some help, my Google search powers are failing me.
I need either excellent and dogged search help, or some Lexis/Nexis/Westlaw, or legal background familiar with this concept.
Need to find a past petition for disclosure of grand jury minutes/evidence.
Need a past brief responsive to same.
Feel free to email me if you have ? on this. rayne_today [at] yahoo
And yeah, this is on topic. On your mark, get set, GO!!!
Bush thinks he’s a lot like God. That’s why he’s better than Churchill in his own mind.
See if Churchill had lied to go into a war that turned into a bloody disaster- he would be filled with shame and remorse and perhaps apologize and withdraw- but since Bush believes in God- he does NONE of these things- as he doesn’t feel that he is vulnerable to such petty things as morality.
Vicki was afraid of having her roots called out by our Jane, and mixed all her leftover Clairol products together, with sad result.
Don’t think they haven’t been reading here!
The deal got cut for the pardon right after Wells’s opening statement.
Libby will do some time after the appeals have run out, then get his pardon Xmas 2008.
The wingnut greek chorus will continue its “no underlying crime” lament; Bush and Cheney will continue to ignore it; and life in Bush World will go on as usual – remaining at a 30 percent JAR.
Jurors saw in Scooter a normal sort of hard working white person like themselves- workin hard to do his best and please his boss- who got directed into the caca. They know he’s guilty but don’t think he should be punished for just doin his job.
clb72@49,
That’s all true. By not doing so now, Republicans show that they put their party way before their country. Fox News shows that it is simply a Republican noise machine. Haven’t we all had enough of them?
Redd
Is it possible for team Libby to keep up the appeals process until after the 08 elections?
rwcole @ 28
Yes, Virginia, there is a screw loose.
*xyz @
30
Here’s the gist, to be sure. Some how the meme has been floated that the mandate of the 2006 election was something other than a direct cry for CHANGE from the people. This Democratic bunch of milksops seems hellbent on meandering slowly away from forcing accountability on this authoritarian administration. There’s occasional lip service (aka Harry Reid), but no action. Keeping pressure on Congress is key; now, how do we do that because as one commenter pointed out the other day, even John Conyers’ office is well versed in poo-pooing concerned citizens.
cfeddy @ 50
That made my head hurt, too. In his terrific book The Gift of Fear, Gavin de Becker points out that “nice” is a choice, not a character trait. It is action that reveals character, and in looking at poor ol’ Scooter’s actions with respect to Valerie Plame, it’s clear he’s anything but a “nice” man.
This is nestled, almost lost even, in the NYTimes today:
It would seem that the NYTimes is making a stealth sub-rosa case for a pardon.
8.2ontherichter @ 32
To my knowledge only rule is that juror may refuse contact and lawyers must respect that, otherwise they are fair game after the verdict and they are discharged. By contrast it is a felony in Australia to contact a juror ever, even long after the case.
Excellent piece, Christy.
Speaking of the odious Toensing, did anyone notice that the WaPo saw fit to include some of her timeless wisdom in their “Pardon Libby” front page article?
Libby’s allies urged Bush to move right away to put an end to a prosecution they consider blown out of proportion. “He absolutely should do it,” said Victoria Toensing, a former federal prosecutor who has been one of Libby’s most prominent public supporters. “It was a case that never should have been brought in the first place. It’s in Scooter Libby’s interest to have it happen as soon as possible to stop this madness.”
It’s a durn shame that there are so few people available to comment on the Libby case that the WaPo finds it necessary to go back to the well so often with Toensing.
“The Jurors Need a Sit-Down With Larry” (don’t miss Larry Johnson’s reaction in the 1st comment :)
http://noquarter.typepad.com/m….._need.html
I’ve written both my senators and my representative, and have also sent an email to the House Committee on the Judiciary, chaired by Conyers, telling all that it’s imperative that they follow up on the Libby trial. Here’s the link to the Judiciary Committee:
http://judiciary.house.gov/fullcommittee.aspx
Jane should be on in a couple minutes.
those in l.a.: stephanie miller is on 1150am KTLK. jane up after commercial break…
Time to dust off Bertrand Russell’s chestnut “Nice People”- in which he proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that “nice people” are responsible for most of the world’s evils.
rwcole@52,
I have long felt that Bush’s claims of religion are simply a convenient way to pose for votes and to dismiss critics. There’s never been anything on his part to demonstrate sincere belief.
I’m on Stephanie Miller.
I disagree that Rove was intended to be a witness in this trial. AFAIK, Fitz didn’t do all the disclosure during discovery to even use him (and I suspect he did it to hide the full extent of Rove’s testimony). He may well have Rove on ice, but if he does, it’s not for use against Libby in a Libby trial. If you know what I mean.
That said, I think Sidney is right about getting Shooter or Scooter on the stand. I argued with Jeralyn, hard, that there was no way Dick would testify bc it would probably impeach LIbby (as Hannah did so well) and might well open Dick up to impeachment issues.
Though I have been thinking about one more thing. Wells said he decided not to put Libby on the stand when he got Jencks on December 22. Now, I think that’s somewhat bogus, and I can’t help but remember that Wells was the one to apologize for doing teh CIPA headfake. It is possible he’s the only officer of the court who could have said that legally.
In any case, they may have seen something in Jencks that made them rethink putting Libby on the stand. I still wonder if this all revolves around Eric Edelman, the biggest surprise non-witness in this case.
rw at 57 — It’s possible for Libby’s legal team to keep the appeals process going for a while. But that leaves open the question as to whether Judge Walton will allow him to continue on bod throughout that process. Walton has a “tough on criminals” reputation — and,. thus far anyway, bond has only been continued until sentencing. I think there is a distinct possibility that Libby could be remanded to custody pending further proceedings rather than be allowed to remain on bond — which is, doubtless, why the desperation is beginning to show. It’s a short window of opportunity to whine about pardons if Libby heads to jail in June, isn’t it?
http://www.1480kphx.com/
Air America Phoenix with Steph Miller
Badwater
He may be sane and using religion to manipulate- or he may be INSANE and using religion to justify his otherwise unjustifiable behavior. I lean toward the latter read- but the evidence can support either I suppose.
Badwater@47
Washington had false teeth. Bush has a false presidency.
With crimes of this magnitude, one would think that Reid/Pelosi/Conyers et al would come out swinging and stop worrying about 2008! Most of America will be behind them… we are hungry for the truth, we fought for it and it is sooo insanely quiet. And whatever Democrat(s) inherit this mess in 2009, if no action is taken asap, will be doomed to inherit much more of a nightmare.
grrrrrrr.
Listening to that juror on Hardball go on about poor Libby and how she hopes he gets a pardon, it makes me realize how close we came to a hung jury.
The defense only got half lucky when she got on the jury. She is obviously a person who is easily taken in by people in power, but that weakness of character meant she could not stand up to the group dynamic – she was not strong enough to be the lone juror “hold-out”.
More and more I think that Fitz threw in that weak Count 3 to use as a bone for any juror reluctant to convict.
Has the Phase II Report that Pat Roberts stonewalled for years ever been released?
Seems to me that congessional investigation into the Libby/Cheney/Wilson fiasco would fit nicely into that report as to how the administration used its ‘intel’ in order to sell and justify its war.
EPU’d from prior thread:
The 205,000 wounded includes those injured in Afghanistan. One of our local talk radio stations DJ was discussing this the morning after the TV special on the anchor who sustained an IED caused brain injury (Bob Woodruff, I think?).
Something that came out during the special is that troops who were near an IED explosion but not outwardly injured may have sustained brain damage from their brains hitting the inside of their skulls. Many of these are undiagnosed and symptoms will manifest later…so we’ve got who knows how many troops out there who really are “walking wounded.” And we won’t know the full cost of this for years.
Scotian @ 39
Fitz will get nothing from Libby. Like G. Gordon Liddy and Oliver North before him, he is a true believer who will take one for the team. After he gets his pardon as Bush leaves office, he will show up in a future adminstration to do further damage to our country.
Biodun, quoting the increasingly sooty Gray Lady @ 61
Bullshit, and irrelevant to the criminality of their actions.
Bullshit, and irrelevant to the criminality of their actions.
Bullshit, and irrelevant to the criminality of their actions.
Bullshit, and irrelevant to the criminality of their actions.
Biodun @ 61
It would be bullshit, and irrelevant to the criminality of Libby’s actions. But you already knew that!
Rayne @ 51
LET’S GET READY TO RUMBLE!
*xyz – love your call to action – but whom to we go to on this issue? As mentioned late in the last thread, I think the Armed Services Committee has their plate full with the military hospitals scandal and trying to tie Bush’s hands with war funding & escalation into other middle eastern countries. To me, getting to the bottom of what happened (particularly what possibly treasonous events happened in the OVP and WH itself) is important, but it has to take a back burner to protecting our troops and our borders today. I don’t see Levin and the Senate Armed Services Committee taking action on this for a while. My guess is that the House is where we should focus this effort. Where/who do you suggest? Conyers?
Redd- thanks.
On what basis do judges normally decide whether to continue bond through appeal? Do more convicted felons who appeal their convictions stay out during appeal or begin serving their terms? What are the odds? 60-40?
*xyz @ 30
This is great!
How about this being the opening Comment of each Thread as a To-Do-List for each day. The FDL Community doesn’t actually need a reminder per se. But seeing it up front will help to get the juices flowing.
Prairie Sunshine and PW,
Thanks for straightening me out on butt boy. It did not mean what I thought it meant.
great post. libby lost.
OT—
If you have a paper copy of the NYTimes, check out the pic of giuliani in draf–blonde wig and feather boa–singing with Julie Andrews in a skit in 1997.
that ought to make some wingnut heads implode.
Redd
Just one more question- I promise. Will the jury decide punishment or the judge? In any event, are there guidlines that must be adhered to? If so- what’s the minimum Scoots could get?
rwcole @ 74
I keep going back and forth on that one, too. Evil or crazy? Stark raving mad or diabolical? Brain and will eroded by drugs and alcohol or perfectly possessed in some kind of satanic ritual?
I just can’t decide. Either way, we still have to deal with the results of his actions.
The fact that PARDON is the word on everyone’s lips is a great victory for us. The pardon issue is great for anyone who is against the war and against this administration’s disastrous policies.
The damage has been done, through the revelations of the trial. The curtains were pulled back on an administration that was lying about its justifications for war, and was scurrying about trying to keep the truth from coming out.
That Bush has to face the pardon issue is an embarrassment in and of itself, and the longer Bush takes to make a decision on it, the better.
We have to stop looking at it as a legal issue, and see it as a political and PR issue.
I said it previous thread
the president can actually salvage some of his legacy if he iniitiates impeachment hearings against the vice president
bush pledged to remove anyone who was involved in the leak from the administration, we know as a fact the vice president was involved
that’s where the call has to be…journalists have to challenge bush’s claim and hold him to it, point out his honor, his dignity are at stake and then add the whip cream by pointing out our national security is at stake when the vice president himself cannot be trusted with secrets his is charged
It seems to me that the people who are pushing for Scooter to get a pardon are the same ones who were incensed that Clinton pardoned Rich, and that they’re the same people who were making lots of loud noises about mandatory sentences and ‘law’n’order’ candidates and Democrats being ’soft on crime’. My sympathy for Scooter, and for them, is limited.
All across the nation Republican propagandists are calling it a travesty to prosecute someone for perjury when there is no underlying crime. I couldn’t agree more. But, since when is felatio in the Oval Office a crime?
it’s been done before, but anyone who want’s to tell Novak’s syndicate to drop him can do so at
info@creators.com
they won’t, but every drop of pressure helps
Brigid
It’s a tough one. I tend to lean toward “He really believes this shit”.
petedownunder@62:To my knowledge only rule is that juror may refuse contact and lawyers must respect that, otherwise they are fair game after the verdict
So…how did Redington’s appearance on Tweety come about? Why did she decide to go public?
Smelling a rat here.
LandOfTheFree @ 83
Conyers would be a great person to focus on.
And I agree that Democrats in Congress already have a lot on their hands.
However, as I understand it, it wouldn’t take much time or effort to simply initiate the Congressional investigation and file the proper requests to get Fitzgerald’s evidence.
And once the right persons in Congess have all the evidence Fitzgerald has gathered, believe me, this investigation will take on a high priority. Fitzgerald has already done a lions share of the work.
All I am asking Congress to do is get the evidence from Fitzgerald via the appropriate channels and make it public to the fullest extent possible within the law.
The American people have a right to know whether there are traitors in the White House and why Scooter committed perjury and obstruction of justice.
Once Fitzgerald’s evidence is brought before the public via Congressional requests for information, I believe the rest will take care of itself.
But we have to get the evidence out there. And if we don’t pressure Congress to do this, it might not happen…
The fact that PARDON is the word on everyone’s lips is a great victory for us.
I don’t think so, if we were really influential they would be embarrassed to talk about pardons.
Jane Hamsher @ 70
Faux News “smells bad”
Good one! lol
P J Evans @
92
Guess who got Marc Rich his pardon from Clinton? His attorney, Scooter Libby, who received over $2,000,000 for his services.
rw at 90 — The judge decides punishment, and he’ll likely go by sentencing guidelines — into which a number of factors have to be considered to determine where he will fall for sentencing purposes. There is a lot of debate as to where on the guidelines he will fall and, unfortunately, I don’t have my guidelines calculations on this at my fingertips where I am at the house at the moment. (And, I’m rusty on doing guidelines calculations anyway — so perhaps someone who has been in front of Walton for sentencing proceedings can chime in and give us a fresher perspective on what we can expect from Walton?) My research on Judge Walton’s sentencing practices says that he is very tough in terms of expecting some acceptance of responsibility — which we have not seen at all from Libby. (We’ll see what happens with the pre-sentence investigation report on that issue, but I doubt there will be a lot of change from Libby, to be honest.) Sorry that isn’t more precise, but there are a lot of factors that get considered — and we don’t know how Libby will attempt to finesse them with the probation officer providing the court with the pre-sentence investigation just yet — so it’s tough to say anything for certain on sentencing at this stage.
Calling Trex! Calling Trex!
Your favorite Columnist Goldberg is at it again!
Snark required! Snark required!
Be sure to wear protective gear.
http://www.latimes.com/news/op…..ion-center
If Congress wants to get involved, it should do so on the basis of investigating necessary changes to the law against outing agents. Such an investigation would have to look into all the details of what happened- and WHY fitz was unable to prosecute. It would cover all the necessary ground and would be seen as necessary to national security.
Oh, that was good. I wish it was Stephanie and her crew, though.
I was listening to Elaine on my way in this morning and she was going off on people bashing Hillary saying, “That’s the right’s job, we shouldn’t be bashing our own.”
And, of course, I totally disagree with that left/right speak mentality (but she’s a comedian, whataya gonna do). If someone speaks wrongly, or weakly or without logic or conviction or purpose or anything redeemable (as Hillary is wont to do) then they deserve to be called on it — no favorites, no quarter, no excuses, period!
Great job on Steph Miller’s show, Jane! Listen to her every chance I get on KTLK.
rwcole @ 97
I think that Bush is mostly a puppet and says whatever he has been instructed to say. The rest of the time he just hopes to get throught the day without being too bored. Those running the White House don’t expect him to do much. They don’t even interrupt his bike rides when serious events occur.
Pardon Libby? For what? Lying and obstruction of justice? Would he still be liable for his other activities?
If Bush is in a pardoning mood, I’d like to see him pardon our troops. He loves to remind us that they’re all volunteers now, but they really have done all they can to save his ass. He should let them come home.
Libby was a volunteer, too, but he could have left the administration any time he became uncomfortable with his “duties.”
There is one word to describe what Bush is wallowing in “Hypocrisy”
From Websters online disctionary (My bold)
Main Entry: hypocrisy
Pronunciation: hi-’p-kr&-sE also hI-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -sies
Etymology: Middle English ypocrisie, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin hypocrisis, from Greek hypokrisis act of playing a part on the stage, hypocrisy, from hypokrinesthai to answer, act on the stage, from hypo- krinein to decide
1 : a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion
2 : an act or instance of hypocrisy
On a relevant note, establishment figures are setting the stage for Cheney’s resignation, asking whether he has “lost…his mind” and whether he’s “delusional”: http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..02044.html
Redd
Thanks
Sure is great to have you here!!
Christy Hardin Smith @
12
Thanks very much. Canaan Valley and Blackwater were booked. We’ve got a dog constraint to deal with. Right now, it’s gonna be Watoga and Lost River, with a little time in VA at Shenendoah National park.
AZ Matt @ 102
that’s a misprint. Doughy Pantload is a calumnist.
johnSwifty @ 104
It all depends on how you bash. The other Democrats go after Hillary for her position on the Iraq War and for not being strong enough on certain Democratic/progressive issues.
Hillary attacks other Democrats using right wing talking points, like “not understanding the war on terror” (a paraphrase).
Hillary’s approach is unacceptable and Liebermanesqe.
On a related note, establishment figures are setting the stage for a Cheney resignation by openly asking whether he’s “lost…his mind” or is “delusional.”
See Jim Hoagland in Washington Post today: “What Has Happened to Dick Cheney?”
brendan @ 109
Or whether he was replaced by a Golem during a heart attack prior to the 2000 election?
Rayne
Citation for you Fed. Rules of Crm. Pro. Rule 6(e)(3)(E)(i)
Relevant text
If rayne has left the lake and shows up later will somebody make sure she gets this?
Thanx
LHP
emptywheel is on Sam Seders show.
doing an excellent job of running down the details.
I think the picture you put at the head of this post is rich, CHS. Personally – and like you did with Rove, reading the “characters” involved – I think what’s behind the whole Plame flaming was “fear of pillowtalk.” Dick may well have known about Valerie as a WMD agent at CIA well before the SOTU – she probably provided some honest skepticism in the face of the Cheney inspired poop-spreading on Iraq and Iran. Cheney has spent the last 30 years cultivating the most ruthless characters in and around Washington, especially those with handles on intel reporting. I think it likely that someone mentioned the “blonde with all the questions” to someone who got it to Cheney – if he didn’t actually meet her himself on one of his several arm-twist excursions to Langley (sure would like to ask Valerie about this!). My point is, Cheney’s gang started vetting Joe as soon as he started speaking to reporters about Niger and the SOTU. That vetting turned up the OH SHIT! fact that Joe is married to the CIA blonde! At that point, Cheney’s fear of pillowtalk kicks in: what secrets have passed and might yet pass on that Wilson pillow. This cannot be allowed to proceed! his Dickness commands. I suspect the setup was made in late May early June, and that witting or not, Dick Armitage was a purposefully launched vector in this caper. After the Wilson op ed, the pre-set machinery went into emergency overdrive, and gosh darnit, I guess some mistakes were made in the execution. Ergo, Libby must lie down under the wheels of Air Force 2.
I’ve all along thought that burning a CIA NOC was just too big a stick to “discredit” Joe Wilson – even if some feeble minds would buy the misogenous “junket” junk. No, in my book, Valerie was a target of this caper, because of the damage Cheney thought she might yet do about dodgy intel, both past and future. Note, I have nothing but the highest rspect for the integrity of both Val and Joe Wilson. This, IMHO, was nothing more that the usual desperate move by Desperate Deadeye Dick Cheney. Why I wouldn’t be surprised if his wife made him do it!
rwcole
Occam’s razor would agree. Bat-shiat nuts is the most plausible answer. Perhaps we should change Hail to the Chief to:
Does that make me crazy?
Does that make me crazy?
Does that make me crazy?
I remember when, I remember, I remember when I lost my mind…
Re DOJ’s regulations on pardoning: I wonder how far back these regulations go because Nixon certainly didn’t have to wait that long for his pardon from Ford.
IIRC, it is the common view that accepting a pardon is an admission of guilt.
Helpless Dancer @ 80
I would not be at all surprised if that is how it plays out. However, until we know the sentence (given Walton’s record for not being easy on sentences and while this may be a first time offender it was a hell of a offence by one of the top people in American government) and whether Libby has to do his appeal inside or outside of the federal pen I think there is some possibility he could crack. I agree he is a true believer because of his strong PNAC ties and support of the PNAC agenda, but once in jail and being treated just like any other prisoner (indeed, this may be more of a shock to his system than many may realize going from being one of the most powerful and respected men in America to being seen and treated as the equal to rapists, pedophiles and murderers and drug dealers in the eyes, words, and actions of guards) plus family pressures might make him crack if not pardoned swiftly. It is possible, if not necessarily probable, and the speculation regarding pardons once Libby was behind bars would be intense for that reason I suspect.
So while I would not be surprised to see your expectation end up being what happens I do not think it is a given/certainty, not yet. Once Libby is in jail (assuming he makes it that far prior to a pardon since I doubt he can win an appeal, well an honest win there is always the possibility of a political partisan ruling given the makeup these days of the relevant appeals courts this will go to) and demonstrates that he can handle doing the time then I will be more comfortable treating that as a given/certainty but until then I am going to remain uncommitted on that point.
brendan @ 109
Plus, Jeb needs a job now and George H.W. Bush needs some way to salvage the family legacy.
LHP — got it from egregious in last thread, thanks, it’s being used as reference even as I type this.
Looking for past examples of application. Hoping Elliott is able to help out, along with a few others.
p.s. Reading up on Walsh and Iran-Contra now. ;-)
punaise-
Yeah I read it this morning in the LA Times. Thursday is always pantload day at the Times.
I can’t understand why they decided to use Goldberg. He’s probably the WORST of the conservative columnists- doesn’t EVER bother to do a bit of research before he writes.
Terre @ 23
Yet his signing statements are off the charts! Go figure!! The Constitution and The Law of the Land mean nothing to these criminals.
*xyz @ 113
Good point, and completely agreed. Ok, there is at least one exception to prove the rule; but as long as there is a forum like FDL to point these things out, the world is a better place.
Is it just me or is the general righteousness of FDL being noticed and gaining respect. Jane rocks!
Great post Christy!
I too was struck at how inane Toensing was; she sounded and acted really freaked out. Which leads me to believe that they (at least Comstock and Vicky anyway) really believed that Libby would be aquited and were genuinely surprised by the verdict (but I would bet dollars to donuts that the defense attorneys were not laboring under that delusion and had thus prepared Libby & “the wife”). These are people who are not used to not getting their own way (how’s that for a double negative!). And did you catch that outfit? Obviously she was not prepared for a desperate round of teevee interviews.
Speaking of ‘the wife” — I am still fascinated by her comment that “we are going to get the f*ckers.” Which ones could she possibly be speaking of? Not Fitz & team, because there is nothing to get. So who does that leave? Russert? (not likely) Rove, Cheney, Ari….the possibilities are almost endless, aren’t they?
An interesting factiod about Harriet Grant: she worked for Biden during the Clarence Thomas hearings was the cheif counsel in the Anita Hill hearings….that is, she was on Anita’s side.
As far as the pardon goes, if Bush does pardon, I really hope that he buckles to the wingnuts and pardons him immediately. He would not live the firestorm down for the rest of his term and give the dems some great ammo in the 2008 elections. It would become a scandal that just will not die. And it would make it easier for Conyers et al to force him to testify about how the VP’s office handled classified info in the lead up to the war.
One other point before I drop out.
If congress requests Fitzgerald’s evidence and makes it public to the extent possible, it will be a hell of a lot harder to pardon Libby, because the public will know a lot more about why Libby lied and who he was covering for…
punaise @ 112
I will remember that, Thanks!!!!!!!
Biodun @ 61
Well, the old ‘criminalization of policy differences’ pardon excuse worked so well last time, America didn’t have the sack to pull the weeds out by the roots then and set themselves up for 15 years of Alice-In-Wonderland values manipulation as a result…I don’t expect any new post-its in the playbook from this crew.
melfeasance @
33
A conservative movement in more ways than one
;>)
*xyz @
30
A good starting point on this is the requirement by the President to annually give a report on the measures being taken to protect covert agents, sources and operations under the Intelligence Agents Identity Protection Act. I wonder if Bush has filed these required reports, and what, if any acts he had undertaken to remove those who leaked, or provided classified information to those in the Administration who lacked a “need-to-know” from holding Security Clearances.
In addition why was Classified information used in a blatantly political act…to mislead the American people to support a war on false grounds. These behaviors violate the National Security Act and it’s clear that when those acts weere revealed the “whistleblower” was personally targetted.
darkblack @ 131
it’s classified: “top excrete”
I keep hearing about “accepting” a pardon. Can a pardon get rejected? I have never heard of this. I thought a pardon just happens- whether you want it or not.
Make that “misogynist”
jayackroyd @ 111
Jay
Let me know if you find a good dog friendly place. We went (well, our friends did, and mr. emptywheel and I worked) last year, but their dog friendly place was a hole in the wall.
cinnamonape – I always look for and appreciate your intelligent and informed commentary. Thanks.
punaise @ 133
Brown opps?
rwcole @ 134
I think a pardon because it is not a statement that one is innocent could be rejected by someone who is genuinely innocent and wants to continue to fight through the normal channels to clear their good name. Though I wonder if this has actually ever happened…
semiot @ 119
Are you aware that Corn and Isikoff’s Hubris says that Valerie was the CIA officer who went to Jordan and got a hold of some of the notorious “aluminum tubes” that Bushco was claiming were for nuclear centrifuges? They turned out to be for conventional rockets.
Cheney, et al, would have naturally been really pissed.
I think the guilty party has to apply/petition for a pardon, rwcole.
SOMEONE please tell me why FITZ didn’t call Cheney?
johnSwifty @ 115
Last year, my mom was diagnosed with a-fib. One of the new medicines suggested to regulate the heart is called Amiodarone. After I looked up the side effects on line, she declined. In addition to all kinds of physical side effects, it can affect the mind as well. I remember one side effect was the inability to change opinions in the face of evidence to the contrary. I remember wondering if Darth was on it. Also, it turns you skin blue. Mom didn’t want to become a psychotic smurf.
angie- any links for this?
Ed*ard Teller @
100
They weren’t really incensed that Clinton pardoned Rich. It felt more to me more like they conspired to get Clinton to pardon Rich so they could have one last thing to hammer him with as he made his way out the door. They used it to reinforce the meme that Bush would bring back “honor and integrity” to the White House thus trying to make the case that even if Al Gore really won the election we were getting the “right” kind of president now.
Someone mentioned yesterday on one of these threads that Conyers was planning to talk about Plame hearings on Air America today. Anyone remember the details of that?
Rayne @ 124
Rayne
how can I help you?
(was outside for bit with the dog)
Bumzaway @ 142
This leads to a larger question of why Fitz seemed to use a very streamlined approach to the trial that some speculated was designed to cordon off any insight into any other charges he might use later. This seems inconsistent with Fitz’s statements after the verdict that the investigation was “inactive”. Anyone have thoughts on this?
punaise @ 133, johnSwifty @ 138
Karl’s no stoolie
;>)
According to Newsweek, according to Justice Dept guidelines, he does not qualify for a pardon!
rwcole– here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardon
yellowsnapdragon– Conyers promised he’d call Ed Schultz today– he was interviewed yesterday.
rwcole @ 134
Yup, you can reject it. Accepting a pardon is tantamount to admission of guilt. THat was one of the hiccups with Nixon’s pardon, how and to what degree he’d accepet guilt.
Saint Brigid @ 143
There is a decided bluish/magenta pall to the man in Christy’s choice of pic above; but, I thought it was just being in the path of the fetid harpy stench emanating from Lynn Cheneys festering gob (did I type that!!??? That was unkind)
angie @ 141
That’s probably true for those not connected to the White House. Nixon never applied, though, and was never tried. George H.W. Bush pardoned Weinberger before trial as well.
darkblack @ 149
Sick transit
darkblack @ 149
Just the blossom of one?
Many pardons have been controversial; critics argue that pardons have been used more often for the sake of political expediency than to correct judicial error. One of the more famous, recent pardons was granted by President Gerald Ford to former President Richard Nixon on September 8, 1974, for official misconduct which gave rise to the Watergate scandal. Polls showed a majority of Americans disapproved of the pardon and Ford’s public-approval ratings tumbled afterward. He was then narrowly defeated in the presidential campaign, two years later. Other controversial uses of the pardon power include Andrew Johnson’s sweeping pardons of thousands of former Confederate officials and military personnel after the American Civil War, Jimmy Carter’s grant of amnesty to Vietnam-era draft evaders, George H. W. Bush’s pardons of 75 people, including six Reagan administration officials accused and/or convicted in connection with the Iran-Contra affair, and Bill Clinton’s pardons of convicted FALN terrorists and 140 people on his last day in office – including billionaire fugitive Marc Rich.
A presidential pardon may be granted at any time after commission of the offense; the pardoned person need not have been convicted or even formally charged with a crime. In the overwhelming majority of cases, however, the Pardon Attorney will consider only petitions from persons who have completed their sentences and, in addition, have demonstrated their ability to lead a responsible and productive life for a significant period after conviction or release from confinement.
The United States Supreme Court has held that a pardon can be rejected, must be affirmatively accepted to be effective, and that acceptance carries with it an admission of guilt. Burdick v. United States, 236 U.S. 79 (1915). That Richard M. Nixon accepted his pardon is noted by Justice Stevens (the only Supreme Court justice appointed by President Gerald Ford) in his concurring opinion in Nixon v. Administrator of General Services, 433 U.S. 425 (1977).
The pardon power of the President extends only to offenses cognizable under U.S. Federal law. However, the governors of most states have the power to grant pardons or reprieves for offenses under state criminal law. In other states, that power is committed to an appointed agency or board, or to a board and the governor in some hybrid arrangement.
(Wikipedia)
So apparently it isn’t necessary for a person to apply for a pardon- presidents can do blanket pardons for whole CLASSES of people- but it is necessary for a person to ACCEPT a pardon. It isn’t clear to me how this is formally done.
Woodhall Hollow @ 128
I thought the quote from Mrs. Libby was “forget the f*ckers” ?
Which could mean something very different,
viz it could be an expression of soliderity along the lines of “forget everything and everybody else, it’s just you and me now”
Which is what I would say if I loved a man in that situation.
punaise @ 155
Karl is bound to impacted by the verdict.
deleted by author
Angie, thanks.
jayackroyd @ 111
Jayackroyd
Try http://www.canaanrealty.com/?g…..GAodIw4S2g Canaan Realty rents houses in Timberline and has a few other place in the Valley. They are nice folk and the places are a lot nicer then the State Park Facilities. (I know, my family has owned a home there since 1976. And sorry but it is not longer a rental.) They will have less problems with the dog issues. Also don’t forget to take the dogs up to the Dolly sods. Lots of Blueberries and cranberries up there. But I can’t tell you were as I am sworn to secrecy.
Peterboy @ 88
YouTube: RudyTootToot does The Donald.
Down With Tyranny: Will the Real Rudy Giuliani Please Stand Up?
Frameshop: Giuliani the Transvestite
*xyz @ 148
he said at the indictment press conference that Libby’s obstruction was preventing him from moving forward. Maybe it’s inactive uless or until Libby comes around or some other break comes Fitz’s way
regardin *xyz’s call to action: do I hear another “rubber stamp” stunt brewing here? Perhaps something that will get the attention of the press (especially now that FDL is more of a known entity to the public thanks to the Libby trial coverage).
If we could think of something we could send to Conyers that would signify our desire for him to get to the bottom of the Plame story, I’m sure he’d be more than happy to talk on the House floor and to the press about it. Ideas?
AZ Matt @ 159
‘Suppository conclusion, your honor.’
;>)
Angie
From what you found and I found- it appears that it’s NORMAL for people to apply for a pardon- but not necessary.
boosh and abu were not so nice about granting clemency while in TX, why would they grant a pardon now?
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17670
thanks rwcole!
looseheadprop @ 158
Ahh. I guess I misremembered what I read! But I hear you on the its just you and me thing, as I would feel the same way. I wonder how such a mindset would influence their sentancing preparation. They are in a bit of a pickle because they have no idea whether Walton will allow him to remain free on bond while he goes through the appeals process (something which is really irritating as it points to the way in which white collar criminals are often treated in a more deferential way than more petty non-violent criminals), if Christy is right in that he hands down harder sentences to those who don’t accept responsibility and express remorse…well, they are going to have to have a lot of heart to hearts in the next few months. I wonder if she will freeze Comstock et al out of them?
Just in case someone’s still reading this thread – what do you all think of a very simple question to be asked of each candidate for president, collect and post their responses.
It could be more open:
1) Scooter Libby, key aide to Vice President Cheney and President Bush, has been convicted of four counts of perjury and obstruction of justice. You are running for President and will have the ability to pardon those convicted of such crimes. Yes or no, If you were President right now, would you pardon Scooter Libby? Explain.
It could be more challenging:
2) Scooter Libby, key aide to Vice President Cheney and President Bush, has been convicted of four counts of perjury and obstruction of justice. You are running for President and will have the ability to pardon those convicted of such crimes but you will also have the responsibility for upholding the Constitution and the laws of the United States. Will you pledge not to pardon Scooter Libby of his crimes should you become President? Will you ask the President to also take such a pledge?
I think this is a gangbusters opportunity for every Democratic candidate to look good and for every Republican candidate to look really weaselly, potentially repeatedly, and either hurt themselves or their party with their responses. Thoughts?
LandOfTheFree @ 165
If I had the time ( and I don’t and I better get off this thread and do my damn work!) I would deliver to him a draft set of motion paers and the legal research unpinning the brief tat shows him how to get the info.
I would also deliver to him a written investigative plan, complete with witness lists, suggested exhibits and proposed questions.
But that would take me and a couple of associates over a week to put together if I did nothing else. It’s a decent sized piece of work.
However, there is ton of legal talent and MArcy’s memory, it could be done over teh span of a few weeks.
I gotta go back to working on my motion due tomorrow
From the DOJ website:
looseheadprop @ 171
LHP – I think this is a fantastic idea – would you mind posting it in the active thread so people get a look.
You are really on to something here.
Gosh, Christy, this is an interesting post. But I think you give all of these neogoons too much credit for being consistently and logistically evil.
Depending on what ’stage’ the legal process is in, will determine loyalties, or the lack thereof.
Libby might get off on appeal. And if the whole matter is remanded for a new trial, what are the odds that a new trial will happen? It could be politically quashed. That would be a huge injustice. No, I do not believe there are grounds for a new trial but I also do not believe in the appellate courts – esp in DC. I esp don’t believe the S.Ct.would do anything except the most expedient for political gain (for the neogoons).
I picture this this duo (Rove and Cheney) strategizing to ENSURE Libby gets freedom until the appellate process is complete. As long as Scooter can play ball with his boys…..I am Scooter is fine with it. His defense fund friends will take good care of him monetarily while he isn’t working.
These goons push everything right to the edge of reason — and beyond. They seemingly risk everything to get their way. Why would they stop now.
As for future plans, they are probably focused on making sure a new trial never happens. I assume, and IANAL, that dismissing a special prosecutr and the funding for future actions, might be a way to head off a new trial.
Basically, we who believe that justice is a real commodity in this country think the game is over. For the neogoons? It is NEVER over. The game never ever ever ever ends. And the playbooks can change at a moment’s notice when necessary. For now, the playbook is dealing (manipulating) the appeals process.
Sorry so long. Your post is very good and the logic you apply is airtight — were it not for the fact that we have the riskiest risktakers who wouldn’t know respect for lawfulness if it was their last chance for true redemption.
Because what is that about anyways? Lying to get their war on.
Just rambling. I truly believe that Libby won’t spend ONE DAY in prison. That is Libby’s reward. And Rove AND Cheney will ensure that. (And they will let lil boots know what his part in it will be).
The appropriate committee to look into this case is probably judiciary- or intelligence.
Fresh thready goodness from Jane, up and ready for the reading.
Milbank
“We’re gonna F*ck em’.”! So who’s “we” and who’s “them?”
I’m late to this but I think folks who are having the vapors about the conviction should be forced to view Chinatown. John Huston was a very rich, respectable Angeleno. But he committed a heinous crime. It can and does happen everywhere. The jurors should be told: Get over it!!!!
darkblack, punaise, johnSwifty
A fart hath no nose.
Woodhall Hollow @ 178 re: 177
The effluent flows downhill:
looseheadprop @ 164
Seems “other break” could have come from putting Cheney on the stand. I still don’t get why he didn’t put Cheney up there.
Good catch on Vicky’s hair. Given the money and limelight in Metro DC, there are a legion of stylists available 24/7. They travel by limo, helo and jet to wherever their clients are. The tips would make a mortgage payment. So, Vicky must have been yanked out of bed.
I disagree slightly about the pardon. It should never issue. But, the battle is over Bush’s brain. Turdblossom seems to control electioneering, Darth Chaney policy, and they share payback. Darth seems to have the more extensive network of moles and, hence, the greater motivation to protect his own furry behind once he leaves office. (To that not so far away fortress on the Chesapeake he bought a year or two ago.)
Cheney must protect his moles from the exterminator that will visit after the next election. If he doesn’t, what’s on those thousands of hard drives may suddenly become undeleted and available. If Cheney let’s Scoot twist in the wind, he will find his network coming undone, which could make for a much less comfortable retirement.
The odds of a Libby pardon before January 2009 seem good. Let’s see what the Dems can do to make that less likely by sending the Accountability Man to the White House.
EPU’d I know, but I gotta say it: I’m sick of looking at Mrs. Cheney’s bad facelift. She could have afforded better! No excuse.
That Christy, what a beautiful mind. What an excellent and very plausible theory of strategy used by “those people”. Goes to show how deep loyalties go in the Bush White House. Their commitment to each other is a thin veneer,easily removed. Bush can never rid himself of Rove, lest he be reduced to the empty hat cowboy that he is.
AZ Matt @ 102
The article is very lame nonsense, e.g.: “Lesser mortals might have a hard time sleeping at night knowing that they’re having the time of their lives through a level of dishonesty dwarfing the transgressions that may send Scooter Libby to prison.” You’d think that before making such a claim someone would have demonstrated some dishonesty on the part of the subjects. But to that point Goldberg had merely demonstrated his shallowness via a string of unsubstantiated innuendos.
This:
…. can mean only one thing: The deal for a pardon was cut months and months ago. Get it?
Megalomaniacs see this as justice when they are victimized by a political opponent. Our Naked Emperor — Bush, takes self righteousness to new heights. After all, God did want him to run for President.
xyz at #173:
For public relations’ sake, be sure to use the jury’s own words: “Where is Rove and everyone else” in justifying Congressional investigation.
Terre @
23
Not that they’ve ever let rules or guidelines get in their way before, but apparently
Unfortunately, the president doesn’t have to wait to be petitioned to extend the pardon.
I hear it takes 5 years wait post conviction to apply for a pardon. I didn’t see that info on previous DOJ post.
oops I didn’t refresh, someone beat me to the 5 yr. claim. Sorry
Friends and neighbors, Rove and Bush are the reasons Libby will get his pardon. Remember Cheney’s note about Scooter as someone “this pres.” asked to “stick his neck in the meatgrinder?” They were all involved in the “pushback” against Joe Wilson, Rove and Bush includeded. If Libby sings, Rove and Bush will figure prominently in the lyrics. If Rove isn’t able to game the appeals court (they have a pet justice there) look for Libby to receive his pardon the day after his appeal is denied. Bush will be told by Cheney and Rove that nobody will remember it and that it won’t tarnish his legacy. If anything, it will burnish it among conservatives, the only people who count.
Christy Hardin Smith @
46
*********sigh***********
dalloway @ 191
I agree. Cheney is both evil enough and smart enough to have involved both Rove and dumbass Bush. He made sure that EVERYBODY was equally up to their asses in aligators. Now, Cheney doesn’t have to sell the idea of saving his ass or Libby’s ass…..all he has to tell Bush and Rove is that you can save OUR asses.
Remember, IIRC & IANAL, if Libby is given a pardon, he is then required to truthfully answer all questions regarding the issue he was pardoned for. This is the fly in the ointment.
Bush/Rove/Cheney would actually be better served if Libby had an “accident” that “was fatal”. Dead lips don’t sink ships.
TeddySanFran @ 34
It’s just another example of the bigotry of low expectations. Talk about lowering the bar!
We should also remember that on the only count that Scooter was not found guilty of, it was only one juror that felt there might be a reasonable doubt.
I know I should say something substantive or profound but that is the damn creepiest picture I’ve ever seen. Nobody in my circle is gonna get laid for a really long time. Excuse me but I have to go pour bleach in my eyes.
It seems so obvious that Libby/Cheney et al miscalculated everything. Firstly, their hubris led them to believe they would either not get caught in the lie or that the Prosecutor would not go after a perjury/OOJ charge. Secondly, once into the trial, they couldnt allow Libby or Cheney to take the stand and risk cross examination, so hope that the jury might give them a pass. When that fails, test the waters by cranking up the talk machine to highlight he’s a nice guy and deserves a pardon. If that doesnt sit well, now the big decision whether Libby will sit quietly in jail and keep his mouth shut. Another miscalculation?? Might Libby see himself as the next chapter in Profiles in Courage??
It’s pretty late and low in the thread, but I have to say it: Christy, I think you’re wrong to oppose a pardon for Scooter.
I’m with Cheney on this one. I say GO FOR IT W!! PARDON SCOOTER NOW!! SAVE HIM FROM GOING TO JAIL – TELL US ALL THAT HE’S A GREAT MAN, HE DOESN’T DESERVE THIS, HE WAS FRAMED, THE JURY WAS CONFUSED, THE JUDGE WAS BIASED OR DRUNK, FITZ IS JUST PLAIN MEAN AND A DEMOCRAT TOO, THE JURY REALLY THOUGHT HE WAS INNOCENT, WHATEVER WORKS FOR YOU. MAKE MY DAY!
Hell, if Scooter was going to flip for Fitz, he would have already. I’m sure we all agree he’s planning to continue to stonewall, in expectation of the coming pardon, the day before next inauguration. He can drag out his appeals and stay out of prison until then, while he works on a book and lives on a fat advance. Better to see him pardoned immediately! Why? Does anyone here remember attorney / special prosecutor Archibald Cox? A pardon now for Libby would be W’s Saturday Night Massacre – an act transparently designed to prevent his own investigation or prosecution, and to reward Libby for his loyalty. W, like Tricky Dick, may think no one will notice, especially if it’s handled quietly, on a Saturday night, when no one’s paying attention to the news. In reality, it would set off a firestorm of protest. W’s base would love it, but it just might be enough of an outrage to cause a few more Congressional Dems, maybe even a few Repugs, to grow spines (or other vital organs). IANAL but IMHO, a pardon for Libby, a potential witness to crimes by the President and Vice President, would provide res ipsa loquitur evidence in support of obstruction of justice charges against the Pardoner. That might even be sufficient grounds for immediate impeachment.
Even if not, a pardoned Libby would still be subject to subpoena by various Congressional committees, who will likely be unappreciative of a stubborn, forgetful, perjuring major witness. Refusal to cooperate with a Congressional investigation might carry greater potential for incarceration than the current conviction. Only this time, he’d be out of reach of a pardon. If anyone can force Libby to disclose what he knows about criminal actions by the President and VP, it would have to be an energized and determined Congress. A pardon would likely help bring that about.
Thanks for allowing me to share my thoughts.
RE: NPR interview(#18). Didn’t hear that but in the US. Army they often call GIs who never leave the Forward Operating Base(FOB)Fobbitts and that IS related to Hobbitts. Here on Internat’l Womens Day, I can’t help but notice that they always refer to her as Lorena( and not gallo, i.e Spanish for cock, as in rooster) and him as Bobbit(and not John Wayne). Lorenazo has entered the Spanish Dictionary, though…lol