
The jury has now deliberated nine days. Best as I can reestablish with my PACER password glued to my computer at home, here are the breadcrumbs the jury has left for us to follow its trail.
Wenesday, February 21, PM
[Jury asks for easel, masking tape, and post-its. Rayne and Marcy sigh in office supply giddiness.]
Thursday, February 22, AM
May we please get any one of the documents where there are pictures of the witnesses.
Tuesday, February 27, 4:30 PM
We would like clarification on the charge as stated under Count 3 specifically:
Page 74 of the jury instructions, "Count three of the indictment alleges that Mr. Libby falsely told the FBI on October 14 or November 26, 2003, that during a conversation with M. Cooper of Time Magazine on July 12, 2003, Mr. Libby told Mr. Cooper that reporters were telling the administration that Mr. Wilson's wife worked for the CIA but that Mr. Libby did not know of this was true." (i.e., is the charge that the statement was made or about the content of the statement itself)
Judge's note at the bottom, sent on Wednesday morning — I am not exactly certain what you are asking me. Can you please clarify your question?
Wednesday, February 28, 10:45 AM
Psyche! After further discussion, we are clear on what we need to do. No further clarification needed. Thank you. We apologize.
Wednesday, February 28, 3:45
We would like another big Post-it pad. The large one for the easel. [Cue sighs from Marcy and Rayne; cue grumbling from the office supply agnostics.]
Thursday, March 1, 4:00 PM
[The jury requests a dictionary and requests to be let go the following day (Friday) at 2PM. Judge Walton says no to the dictionary but yes to the early dismissal.]
Friday, March 2, 10:30 AM 2:00 PM
We would like clarification of the term "reasonable doubt." Specifically, is it necessary for the Government to present evidence that it is not humanly possible for someone not to recall an event in order to find guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
Friday, March 2, 2:00 PM
As Count 1 statement 3 (pages 63 & 64) do not contain quotes, are we supposed to evaluate the entire Libby transcripts (testimony) or would the court direct us to specific pages/lines.
Thank you.
Monday, March 5, 4:05?
[3 questions, all relating to Count 3. The first two appear to relate to the timing of the statements. The third relates to whether the jurors can use evidence from the grand jury testimony in their consideration of whether Libby lied in his FBI interviews on October 14 and/or November 26]
Now, obviously, they've barely let me in the court room, much less the jury room, so what I'm going to say is pure conjecture. But this sure seems like a vulture flying in slowly tightening and accelerating circles over its prey.
On days one (a half day), two, three, and four, the jury progressed methodically, with all the order you might find in a corporate retreat. Late on Tuesday, day five, the jury hit its first stumbling block–a seemingly simplistic confusion over whether the charge related to Libby lying to journalists–or to the FBI–on count three, the false statements charge alleging Libby lied about his conversation with Matt Cooper. After Walton asks for clarification the following morning (day six), the jury decides they can answer this on their own. The jury appears to regain steam by later that day–at least, they've gone through their first flip chart. Then, on day seven, they seem to hit another stumbling block. They ask for a dictionary (and an early Friday). The jury, observers guess, has hit a stumbling block on a legal definition, perhaps on a regular doozy like reasonable doubt. And sure enough, early the next morning they ask for clarification on reasonable doubt–though they hold that request until the afternoon, as if they continued to try to work it through themselves. Also on day eight, they ask for clarification on the part of the obstruction relating to the Cooper charge.
Note, this is a different charge than the one they previously asked about (Count Three, false statement), but as I explained in a post on this question, it seems to suggest different thinking about the two Cooper charges (the false statement and the perjury).
Now, if you recall back in closing statements, Zeidenberg made a really great attack on Team Libby's assertion that the Cooper charge amounted to just a few words. Zeidenberg said:
You remember COoper said at end of conversation. He said What have you heard about Wilson's wife sending him on the trip. Libby's response, "yeah, I've heard about that." Wells suggested that differences between LIbby's version and Cooper's version, is just difference between a few words. Cooper said, I heard that too. And Libby said, I heard that too, but I don't know if it's true? But is that the evidence in the case. Do you remember what Libby ACTUALLY said what occurred in that conversation? I'd like to play portion of what Libby said he said to Cooper.
Libby, then Cooper said, why did Wilson say it?
[Libby's GJ tape: I would have thought, off the record, that CIA wouldn't tell, who asked about it. Conversation VP has is supposed to be confidential. They'd have said that CIA tried to do it. I wouldn't have thought that he heard this, but if it's possible he heard something unofficially, it was wrong. In that context, I said, off the record, reporters telling us that Amb Wilson's wife works at CIA. I don't know if true. But if it's true, it may explain why Wilson got some bad information at agency.]
By anybody's count, that is not a few words. By any account, that is not what Cooper said Libby said. He never told Cooper, I don't know if it's true. It's made up, made up out of whole cloth. Ladies and gentleman, Cooper could never have taked as confirmation the things Libby had told him. Cooper took this as confirmation. How could he have taken it as confirmation?
Basically, Zeidenberg responded to this "just a few words" charge by demonstrating that Libby babbled on and on and on during his grand jury testimony. Jeffress responded by showing that the False statements charge really only alleges that Libby said a few words.
For the sake of closing arguments–and for the sake of the Cooper charges generally–this seems to be gamesmanship.
But not for the obstruction charge, where this appears. The jury seems to be asking whether they should take the allegation in the Cooper false statement charge, which says…
Mr. Libby told Mr. Cooper that reporters were telling the administration that Mr. Wilson's wife worked for the CIA, but that Mr. Libby did not know if this was true.
…or whether they should take the allegation in the Cooper perjury charge, which includes multiple sections of Libby's babblings.
This suggests to me that the jury is approaching the two Cooper charges differently. It suggests Zeidenberg's argument may have done the trick, by pointing out Libby's endless babblings in the grand jury charge, he may have convinced the jury that there would be no way to confuse what Cooper said Libby said–"I heard that too"–with paragraphs and paragraphs of babblings.
Effectively, by ordering the jury to refer to the entirety of the grand jury testimony this morning, Judge Walton basically told them the allegations made in the perjury charge–the paragraphs and paragraphs of babbling–were available for this charge.
But that didn't answer the questions about the Cooper charges. Late in the afternoon on day nine, the jurors asked three more questions about the charges. We have not yet seen the questions, but it seems that the jury implied it believed Libby had lied about the Cooper charge in one–but perhaps not both–of his FBI interviews. We await indication whether they all believe he lied in the same interview–but Judge Walton seems inclined to instruct them that a lie in one of his interviews was sufficient to find Libby guilty.
But that's not enough, it seems, for them to convict on the false statements charge. They also asked if they could use the grand jury testimony to support their consideration of the false statements charge. Again, this seems to mirror their earlier confusion about whether they should consider the obstruction charge using all the babblings of the grand jury testimony, or only the sparse statements alleged in the false statements charge. More and more evidence seems to suggest that Zeidenberg convinced them with that the babblings in the grand jury testimony could not be equated with Cooper's version of the statement. Mind you, I'm certain that Walton will instruct them that the can only use the babblings in an ancillary consideration of the false statements charge, if at all. But it's as if they're saying, "well, if we're convinced he lied in March about his Cooper conversation, is it really possible he told the truth in October and November."
Now, by all accounts, Count 3 is the weakest charge. It basically pits Libby's testimony against Cooper's and, to a lesser degree, Cathie Martin's. Whereas all the other charges involve either more substantive differences between Cooper's and Libby's testimony, or many more witnesses. Which would seem to suggest that they're honing down on the last charge, trying to come to agreement over the fifth charge.
Of course, we don't know that. They may have perceived the Cooper charges to be easier to work with. They may be moving back and forth between all the Cooper charges first, before they get to the Russert charge. The biggest piece of evidence supporting this notion is that they asked a question about the obstruction charge at a time when they should have been convinced of Libby's guilt on Count 4. After all, simply a conviction on Count 4 might be enough to convict on Count 1. And if they had already decided on the seemingly easier Russert charges (Counts 2 and 4), then they wouldn't need to consider the Cooper allegations in the obstruction charge that closely. Remember, though, while a guilty verdict on one out of the two perjury charges is sufficient to a guilty verdict on the obstruction charge, it does not necessitate an obstruction charge. The jury may feel more confident convicting for the stronger charge of obstruction if they can show that Libby made a coherent attempt to cover-up any evidence to support an IIPA charge, rather than just making up a pathetic, isolated, story about Russert.
But to me it seems much more likely that they've almost honed in on their prey. Accelerating circles, nearly ready to pounce.
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Fitz!
I think today they’ll come out with something.
Why can’t anyone interview that juror who left?
Back by popular demand—
Court weather for today:
Current temp 19F
High of 34F, winds 20-30mph.
Tomorrow a tad warmer, inch of snow.
Bundle up folks!
Since we are one day closer to the verdict I beleive we are closer to a verdict. ;>)
Go EW, Go!!!!!!!!!
Thanks, Marcy. I haven’t been this excited to read a note since the girl sitting in front of me in fifth grade ostentatiously dropped one by my desk.
Fitzmas in March! Something to warm the heart on a cold day.
Get any sleep Marcy?
Morning all! Egregious, are you on-site today?
Walter Reed Veteran Neglect Time Line in draft form at oldamericancentury.org.
Taylor Marsh has the video of Senator Webb at Hardball re Walter Reed. Link on late nite near bottom. Do we have edit turned off?
Georgesimian @ 2
Simple answer: Walton apparently instructed her not to speak to the media.
In-depth answer: As curious as we all are about what’s going on inside that sealed room, the last thing we’d want is a media circus (or rather, even more of a media circus than we already have) that might serve to affect the deliberations. Scooter Libby’s fate now rests in the hands of a jury of his peers. That’s a somewhat unsettling prospect for most of us, since we were about ready to convict the guy solely on the basis of the indictment, but I assure you, it’s even more unsettling for Scooter.
Excellent treatment, Marcy. I always appreciate your interpretation.
I do believe I see the vultures now.
good morning! coffee’s ready… do the officers of the court have their handcuffs at the ready?
and, is anyone wearing their lucky shoes today?
RevDeb @ 6
Yup! the Fitzmas Bunny is coming to town for all the bad little boys and girls with many decorated Fitzmas colored indictment eggs.
Twisted Martini @ 8
I think Jane and Marcy have it covered today.
It’s sort of like church, where I am the third emergency backup organist. Standing by on-call in the suburbs. But I did pick out a lovely outfit just in case.
Ooooh, coffee!
What’s on the fashion menu, today?
BurkeDem @ 15
something in really awful orange?
I went out this morning to scatter some cracked corn for the dove and pick some flowers for my kitchen table, and I noticed at least five buzzards circling over the hills behind my house. By the time I came inside, they had moved to the skies over the field across the road. They’re hunting…
Perhaps they’ll make their way to DC by this afternoon?
OldCoastie @ 15
Fingers and toes crossed!!
OldCoastie @ 12
Wearing my ugg boots. Not as sexy as Janes but it’s cold as all get out here this morning… also wearing my gold shamrock. Waiting for the verdict. FITZ!
Just have to add; this is my second zed! Woo hoo!
It’s looking like the firing of the US Attys could become as much fun as this has been. Lots and lots of people trying to game the system. More than enough to keep FireDogs busy for the foreseeable future.
We are quite capable of multi-tasking.
Sen Webb video on Hardball.
I want the jury to say, “Guilty as SIN!”
I like that after all that smiling and posing for the cameras, Scooter stopped grinning yesterday…
Another day of my productivity shot to hell.
RevDeb@21
Yes, we are.
Has the system finally reached its breaking point? I should hope so. How much abuse can it take?
epu’d from previous thread
Thanks for the link, egregious.
We need many more like Jim Webb. As the other Dems continue to disappoint, Jim Webb continues to impress.
Marcy is brilliant, and I hope she’s right. I keep hoping that the jury of 11 can be as capable as our one Marcy.
joy for me for now
I have to admit, I am now much more optimistic bouat the outcome then I have been the past few days
it seems to me that if they got past charges 1 and 2 then there really isn’t a holdout at all, there might actually be legitimate concerns over the charge they are having trouble with
cool
this of course suppses they didn’t skip right to the charge they all wanted to approach first
in any event, it looks to me lke there is movement and I think we might get something in today or tomorrow
I’m gonna get fired thanx to firedog lake
is the judge allwoed to poll the jury or get any indication where they are?
oooh, morning latte w/ Emptywheel and the Firepups – another $25.07 coming your way. Thank you so much for all of your contributions Marcy !
it’s probably a good thing I can’t get fdl at work, but yesterday was agony! and, while I knew things were happening, not one word on any other site…
RevDeb @ 21
It goes back much durther than the recnet mass firings. There is a lovely scandal there that goes back into the first Shrubya admin.
Keep diggin’ Pups
perris @ 29
According to the instructions, the jury can’t give any indication of the numbers prior to delivering the verdict.
hey – thanks much for the detailed coverage. much appreciated. you guys exemplify what’s best about the blogosphere.
btw vultures eat things that are already dead. they are “nature’s clean-up crew.”
OldCoastie @ 31
I can get FDL at work and boy am I not getting anything done!
egregious @
14
Well, you’re certainly WELCOME to join us if you want. More the merrier. I wish we knew whether it was going to be today or tomorrow (hopefully) so you could make sure you were here.
looseheadprop @ 32
Is there some reason you are keeping it a secret?
Marcy, your depth of knowledge and uncanny recall never cease to amaze me.
However, a couple things to remember. They don’t have the trial transcripts in there (which makes it a little weird that they haven’t asked for readbacks).
So, unless somebady took really fabulous notes I doubt thay have ccess to anything of the level of deetail that you have in your liveblogging posts.
I would be amzed if they were performing an analysis of the kind you are capable of. No matter how smart or well educated, they don’t have the raw materials to work with.
They do have the GJ transcripts IIRC. Which may explain why they are focused on them
I take it the notes did not get put up on Pacer overnight? Jeralyn had said she was going to poke her nose on there periodically in case they did …
Marcy—thanks for the kind invitation. Will need to spend today on my charity stuff, life as we knew it before the elections and trial.
looseheadprop—I assume you mean [?Black] the US Attorney who was fired for actually investigating the Marianas. Surprised that hasn’t made it into the media yet. If there is yet -another- case then at least give us a wee hint.
Good Morning Prof Prop –
right now I am thinking of the TX redistricting issue wherein some concientious DOJ ers said it failed to meet the legally required critera and their appointed supervisors quashed that and went on to approve it
brain is quite fuzzy but I recall there were at least two other similar incidents – is this what you are talking about ?
PSA – Christy’s Cinnamon Rolls comin’ in 30 min
TJ @ 37
It’s not my story to tell. And the people who have chosen to go quietly have a right to determine how to run their own careers. It’s not fair to expose things said in freindship.
However, if it happened here, I’m sure it happened elsewhere.
And at least one member of the Senate Judiciary COmmittee knows and if he is not acting on that information, I don’t know why.
looseheadprop @ 38
Damn. You mean they’re don’t even have my liveblog?
No–you raise a good point. But remember–the dispute between Zeidenberg and Wells on the Cooper stuff was almost the last thing they heard (before Fitz’ use of Libby as proof that hte “I heard that too” came at the end of the conversation). So it may have stuck, at least enough to point them to these babblings in teh GJ transcript.
egregious @ 40
That was one
looseheadprop @ 38
not to mention her delightful wit!
Christy, email headed your way. Could be real important.
Detective Egregious on the case ! good one, and if I recall, didn’t some little Rove minion lose her job over talking about that as well ?
lhp at 44 That was one
Ooooh, there IS another one….
emptywheel @ 43
You could be right. However, I did not notice anyone on the jury taking notes during that. So, unless they have MUCH better recall than I do (I forgot all about that until I read your post this AM) I don’t see how they could drill down that far.
Remember, we have had 2 years to slowly load this information into the hard drive between our ears. The jury had less than amonth to absorb a huge information dump. No matter how hard they tried to concentrate. I just don’t know if it stuck with the kind of detail we can bring to our discussions
looseheadprop @
42
TJ @ 37
looseheadprop @ 32
RevDeb @ 21
Well, sad I have to ask but would that be a Democrat or a republican Senate Judiciary Committee member?
I think today is a very bad day for the criminals in control of our country.
Sorry I won’t be at my computer all day. Yesterday took a long time just to go through the posts without even being able to read all the comments. Talk about a junkie. I am hopped up.
Ack! Too many moving parts! I can’t keep track of it all. I need a flow chart, a venn diagram, a flip chart, some post-its. Can someone please make some visual, clickable summary of the charges in boxes with their corresponding allegations and dates and testimony so the text makes more sense?
Boston Globe August 8, 2005. So the media did cover the Black/Marianas firing, briefly.
Wonder why the story stopped there? Who quashed the investigation? Who should have looked into it and didn’t etc.
I’ll stop w all the off-topic stuff as soon as court begins.
Sticking with stuff that is public knowledge: WTF is up with turning over the power to nominatie USA’s in California to a guy who NOT elected to anything, but merely a major fundraiser.
For years and years it was the Senators from a given state that did the nominationsfor both USA’s and federal judges. Then Shrub comes along and if there are no Rep Senators in a give state, Like NY, he says he is gonna give the power to the Gov.
Well Pataki was a little bit of a gentleman and worked out a deal with Schumer and CLinton whereby they got one out of every (I think) 4.
In Illinois, they give he power to Denny Hassert. When Pat’s 4 year term was expiring (he is now a holdover), Hassert was talking to the press about his short list of replacements.
In California, I guess they don’t trust the terminator despite the fact that he ws elected on the Republican line and gave the power to a fundraiser.
This, oh pups, is all in the public sphere already. And anything else not in the public realm, tha I know about, is already known to a Senator on the judiciary committee with enough experience and know how to act on it.
Gary @ 50
Dem
egregious @ 53
Don’t stop, egregious. We need some diversion before the main event. Besides, it’s always right to shine light on corruption.
portia.vz @ 52
Actually team Fitz had a couple of very good charts that really did make things crystal clear. I’m not sure if they went into the jury room though
Marcy, if you’re optimistic, that’s good enough for me!
It does sound as though the denouement is near. Will hang on every word but “refresh” sparingly. Good luck! Hope you and Jane can get home soon.
Man, Marcy I hope you are right. I have a lawywer friend and he keeps cautioning me that perjury charges are very hard to prove …
So we wait and hope. It is so much easier doing that with all of you, though.
While the firing of U.S. attorneys for purely political reasons is appalling, I have trouble seeing how it’s prosecutable. Don’t you need a direct link to an ongoing case? And even then, what would be charged and how would you get any Republican congresscritter or White House operative to admit that was the reason? Anybody?
EW at Top: “Late in the afternoon on day nine, the jurors asked three more questions about the charges. We have not yet seen the questions, but it seems that the jury implied it believed Libby had lied about the Cooper charge in one–but perhaps not both–of his FBI interviews.”
I have a slightly different reading here.
It seems more likely that the jurors believe Libby lied about what he told Cooper in both FBI and GJ testimony, but that they are divided on whether the prosecution proved it beyond a reasonable doubt in one of the instances – probably the FBI interview.
EPU-ed last thread, something to occupy your fingers, and further on egregious’ theme of “where was the oversight…”
looseheadprop @ 57
Interesting question–we have no idea WHICH document with the pictures of the witnesses on it went back. If it was Team Fitz’ document, it’d sure be a nice bonus, huh?
Right now we’re waiting on a cab. And waiting. And waiting.
how about a verdict today ! i’m getting a BLOOD CLOT in my leg .
egregious @
48
I think lhp meant ‘that was a hint‘
Rapid Ann starting to get commercial backlash. From the Raw Story:
They’ve been in there too long. Somebody is holding out and playing lawyer against the rest of the jury, being unreasonable and otherwise a pain in the ass.
Here is an OT, but a goodie.
The NM Senate (floor) is going to hear the impeachment resolution which has now received a do pass from all three committees to which it was assigned. Normally 3 committee hearings is a sure sign that the leadership wants the legislation dead.
However, in this case the sponsors ASKED for 3 hearings, which now gives it more standing than ever. Because it did not die after 3 hearings.
The floor vote will be very close. But Iglesias has been held in high regard, and there may be even a republican or more who will vote to impeach, after the hearing in DC today.
Woo Hoo!!!
I just want to add to Prairie Sunshine’s comments. It is frightening how Hannity and Limbaugh tried to shut Dana Priest up. She is the best of the WP, and to see them try to run her out on the rails was chilling. The fourth estate has been badly corrupted. Thank God she hung in there. The secret prisons and Walter Reed would have been swept under the rug.
And it only takes one good, honest, investigative journalist to turn the tide. In all my bitchin’ about the media, I sometimes forget that people like Dana Priest deserve our highest support and defense.
I’ve been dreaming of a white Fritzmas.
I’ve never had a proper respect for the buzzard before this morning.
Some of this discussion has reminded me of a question I wanted to ask: Why aren’t the jurors allowed a transcript of the trial (the parts they were present for, that is)? People absorb information in different ways, and it would make sense to let them read words that they’ve already heard. Why so “Top Secret” with the transcript??
there’s a diary at Kos about how the DOJ is threatening the fired attorneys and told to STFU.
Terry Olson @ 70
And how does your spouse feel about this?
Eg
If you wanted to gather up all the existing info and flogg the story mercilessly like FDL did with Plame, you might create a climate where, after an agaonizing wait, you may get most of your questions answered.
That was part of the genious of what Christy and Jane and Marcy and others have done here.
Pat was gonna do whatever Pat was gonna do no matter what. But that alone would not dictate how the American people would recive the information.
Without the pushback and truthtelling by the people here and at related sites, most Americans would proably believe the spin from the likes of Victoria Toensig. You know the “overzealous” slime.
Early in the coverage, they were making him sound unbalanced. FDL and kindred sites kept the boat from tipping over.
Well the same is true of the story of the attempted systematic destruction of DOJ and the Federal Judiciary.It will take decades for federal law enforcement to rebuild b/c so many of the good people, “career” people left if they had the option to.
The middle ranks, the places where future agency leaders vcome from, have been decimated. They upper leadershipt (deputy and assistant attornies general) replaced with cronies.
An awful lot of this is already publicly available. In fact the vast majority. You could put this together with a lot of research.
emptywheel @
63
Oy. This former DC resident remembers how long _that_ could take.
Is this the firing of a prosecutor to which lhp and others were alluding? Josh Marshall at TPM has it this morning.
DiBiagio in Maryland was going after the hatchet men in the Erhlich administration when he was sacked.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c…..012825.php
bg @ 67
Impeach who? The replacement USA? I don’t think a state leg has the jurisdiction to do that.
More details please.
lhp—
Any volunteers to run down the attorneys general scandal?
My plate is full, but it looks appetizing. Hope someone else can take this on.
Pete @ 69
Does that tie into the snow in tomorrow’s forecast?
Impeach who—Bush I think.
Marcy, you mentioned Count 3 is the weakest charge. Which is the strongest charge against Scooter? By “strongest” I mean the one on which you think the jury might be most likely to convict. I believe Jane said Jeralyn is skeptical that Fitzgerald really made his case. Does J think at least one of the charges is likely to stick?
Thank you.
Thomas Jefferson made a point that a state legislature can ask for impeachment. I can find the info, but it is there. Several state legislatures are doing this now, but perhaps NM is the farthest along in it.
Any state legislature has to pass it through both houses, and then the national congress has to hold a hearing or something similar on the merits.
laurie9 @ 71
because both sides would have to agree on the accuracy of the transcript before it could go into the jury (court reporters make mistakes. They are only human)
Usually, it would take longer to “settele” the transcript than it does to deliberate. SO the transcript is not yet official.
WHen the jury requests a readback of a portion of the tanscript, the two sides confer and “settle” the portion that will be read back.
laurie9 @ 71
I think it’s a great question. If I were on this jury, I’d be asking for constant readbacks.
Not to be the world’s biggest legal wet blanket, but a healthy dose of deep breathing is a good idea before we get started today. As I said yesterday:
Anything else is speculative, and should be treated as such. Period.
That said, I love this post. And I do have this tingly something is gonna happen feeling…so maybe we’ll get lucky today? All I’m saying is, until the jury announces the actual verdict, nothing — and I mean nothing — is certain. And that’s a healthy thing to keep in mind while we wait.
Technically speaking, being scavengers not predators, vultures don’t have “prey.”
Even better. The image of Libby as carrion is sort of appealing.
egregious @ 78
CSPAN is having a thing on this next.
BurkeDem @ 15
Dinosaur suits are all the rage in certain haute couture zones…so I’m told.
lhp,
New Mexico legislature is trying to impeach Bush & Cheney, AfterDowningStreet.org details.
Thanks, looseheadprop!
looseheadprop @
55
rywd
Does the last name begin with a D and end with an N?
CHS said…
I have to concur. I always used to tell my clients that going to court was like a one-way ticket to the twilight zone. I’ve seen VERY peculiar, absolutely unpredictable, things occur. It is definately not over til it’s over and even then…sometimes…it still ain’t over.
Ain’t nothing to do at this point except enjoy each other’s company and seek new ontological meaning in the refresh button.
emptywheel @
63
Hmmm, there are no local firepups who could give you a lift? I would but I’m about 200 miles away.
CNN – bob dole, donna shalala to head Walter Reed probe
BurkeDem @
20
Maybe it’s because I grew up over at DailyKos but I don’t understand what the fascination is with getting the first comment.
Anyhoo, ‘morning all. Marcy and Jane and other courthouse elves, thanks again.
twolf1 @ 94
Great, she can take time off from covering up the Miami Hurricane’s football scandals!
bg @ 82
There’s a post on Digby’s site about the attempts being stifled in WA to do what NM is doing. I think this will explain it.
Marcy – thank you, thank you, thank you!
I missed all of yesterday afternoon’s events, and while I read the blog entries last night, it was a bit confusing to me. You’ve summed everything up so well here, I now understand.
Probably the most important point that was confusing my non-legal mind was clarified here:
I really would have thought that if he committed perjury, then the obstruction would be obvious. But, then I suppose you wouldn’t have different charges.
I suppose one way the jury might convict Irving of obstruction is if they believe the prosecution proved beyond a reasonable doubt that there was deliberate contradiction in Libby’s FBI testimony vs. GJ testimony.
Does anyone know if the jury has transcripts of the FBI testimony? I read in the comments they have transcripts of the GJ testimony. I’m curious if they might be able to compare.
Great point to whomever mentioned that they haven’t asked for readbacks of testimony (which surprises me, frankly). I can’t help but wonder if, after they’re done comparing a lot of the written evidence (transcripts), they’ll want to double-check with testimony review on the key issues. That could take an extra day. Oh, I hope I’m wrong on that!
Good morning everyone.
I wasn’t able to keep up very well yesterday, and still have not read some of yesterday’s post. Hoping for better results today, but just wanted to say hey.
Thanks for post #85 Christy – you are right. Even though some signs are hopeful – you never know what a jury will do. And I am still worried that they are concentrating on item 3 of Count 1. That may indicate they didn’t find Russert credible. After the ups and downs of yesterday, deep breaths all around.
egregious @ 78
The good folks at ePluribus Media are plugging away at this…but they could always use more volunteers.
I will tell you that calling the different USA’s office yields incredibly different results. Some of the offices now appear to be clamping down on information released. Frustrating as hell, can’t stay ahead of Gonzales and that flaccid sack of dung Rove. So far.
Calling Leahy’s office this morning, as soon as I hit SUBMIT; they need to subpoena EVERY USA that has left office. The extremely tricky part: what does the Senate or House committees in question ask of each of these USA’s? will they simply give up what they know, or are highly specific questions necessary in order to provide adequate cover?
[ahem.]
so many scandals, so little time . . .
a list in need of updating -
no mention of (completely at random)
Firing USA Black
Current USA’s scandal
The missing billions
The missing body armor
Sibel Edmonds
Karen Kwiatowski
Charles Swift
White Phosphorus used in Fallujah
Magic Instant DeClassification Wand
and there’s something about Walter Reed . . .
Might be a good day to start looking into the US Atty sit’n now that lhp have pointed us in useful directions. Rayne has done some digging on this topic, perhaps a she could do a post here on what she’s found?
As I recall, it was Abramaoff who pushed to get Black ditched as US Atty for the Marianas. I have had a feeling that Abramoff is involved in this since day one — Abramoff, Indians and casinos, Marianas sweatshops. Ah yes, the LATimes article is no longer up but Truthout still has it here.
Damn, I have to go out today so can’t take time to dig now. If anybody sees Rayne today, can you make sure she knows about this thread?
Fresh thread, while we are waiting for Libby proceedings to get underway.
Today’s the day! Got my boots on. (Wellies, dressiest thing I could find.) Wearing the TechnoTrousers (Couldn’t find a dinosaur suit). Borrowed pearls from Wendolyne. Got my knitting. Got my cheese and crackers. Got my laptop. Let’s get cracking!
Just another fervent admirer de-lurking to express his thanks and to offer his two cents worth . . .
Fitzgeralds’s cry of “Madness! Madness! Madness!” certainly gave the jury his opinion of Libby’s defense. But it also sent a different, more subtle, message to a larger audience. Patrick Fitzgerald says nothing without careful thought. He was citing lines from the film “The Madness of King George,” alluding to a film whose title, in the context of this trial, has extremely provocative connotations. This may hint that the evidence he has points to King George himself. If this seems far-fetched, bear in mind Cheney’s cryptic hand-written note that Libby was acting at the direction of “this Pres.”
At the outset, Fitzgerald told us that Libby was a merely distraction, the sand in the eye of the umpire. He may now be indicating who the real target is.
Here’s a link for a ’scorecard’ for today’s hearings on the firing of US Attorneys:
Fired US Attorneys
“Eight U.S. attorneys were fired by the Justice Department, seven on one day, late last year. Most had positive job reviews and were presiding over public corruption probes when dismissed. Six are due to testify before Congress today.”
Raven @ 96
And Bob can do undercover investigation.
HotFlash @ 103
pssst…HotFlash…over here!![waves]
I’m still scrambling on an article on Chiara, have had to major rework to meet journalistic standards (yeah, what are those, you ask — but there actually used to be some standard). Also having to revamp to keep up with avalanche of information coming in.
dalloway @ 60
Michael Kinsley’s wonderful Law of Scandal says: It is not what is illegal that is scandalous but what is legal.
Best, Terry
LandOfTheFree @ 98
In my opinion, IANAL, the perjury charges wound be good, but the obstruction of justice charges, if found guilty, could/would then lead to conspiracy charges against others (Shooter???).
OT- Just heard on the local L.A. news that Bush is making a speech today in which he will announce “small, subtle signs that the Iraq troop surge is working.” Don’t know about you, but I can hardly wait…
Very large photo on page 1 L.A. Times of Staff Sgt. Shannon testifying yesterday, Purple Heart eye patch prominent. Caption quotes him saying those in charge of Walter Reed should “pull themselves up by their bootstraps like any sergeant would do, admit to their mistakes and work to fix them.”
looseheadprop @ 77
Jefferson’s Rules (for Congress–official rules). A state legislature can submit a privileged bill of impeachment (of the Prez and/or others) to the U.S. House. All House business must stop, to consider it. In the case of a bicameral state legislature, I think it takes both. Don’t know if Gov has to sign.
A federal Grand Jury can also do so.
The rule was discovered last year by Illinois state rep Karen Yarborough. Several state legislatures are working on it–WA, VT, CA and a few others. NM’s has made the most headway to actual passage–and I heard WA is far along, too.
twolf1 @ 94
there’s a joke in there somewhere
bg @ 82
The private musings of Mr. Jefferson are not considered constitutionally binding. There’s no reason that Congress would have to take up this ill-advised resolution, even if it were to pass. Why doesn’t the New Mexico state legislature devote its obviously-considerable energies to a more productive endeavour, like investigating the deplorable condition of veterans’ care in the state, or the burgeoning scandal surrounding the dismissal of its (former) US Attorney?
If there’s anything that we should have learned from Fitz, it’s this – never go to trial until you’ve got your ducks lined up in a row. He spent two years carefully, laboriously, painstakingly assembling an ironclad indictment, and I suspect within a few hours we’ll see that pay off. To impeach is to indict – and I have yet to see an assemblage of evidence capable of convincing the requisite number of senators to remove the president from office. In the absence of such evidence, an impeachment would simply serve to polarize the country, paralyze the government, and most regrettably of all, rally the public to the president’s defense. (Recall, if you will, the effect of impeaching and trying Clinton on his previously-flagging approval ratings.)
So let’s not get ahead of ourselves here. For the moment, the best thing we can do is to support Henry Waxman and the other tenacious investigators in Congress, and to stoke the public outrage that is fueling the rapidly-growing number of investigations. If this administration is as rotten as many of us believe, the evidence of that rot will certainly be forthcoming. Impeachment ought properly to be the capstone of that process, coming at a moment when most Americans favor the removal of the president from office for committing high crimes and misdemeanours. We’re a long way from that day yet.
Shuster on msnbc reporting that the jury “is dressed up” and emphasizing that even the marshalls noted the dress code change …
FITZEASTER!
OldCoastie @
16
something in really awful orange?
Orange, with stainless steel accessories?
Ah, maybe coordinated, because compassionalte cuffs now come coated with plastic… so colors are available
Hey You @ 106
Here and I thought he was making a reference to the last lines of “Bridge on the River Kwai”; the character says, “Madness! Madness” in reference to what looks like treasonous activity.
So…is Fitz fond of Shakespeare, or old war movies?? Either way, I think we catch the gist.
Rayne @ 101
Rayne. Go read the comment thread at DKos. There are some comments there that look like they came from some of the folks who should be subpeonaed.
Look, if an USA of middle/upper DOJ offical got out with his her reputation intact and landed in a decent job, htey are not gonna be in a hurry to stir the pot.
They went quietly and avoided having their reputtaion ruined. To expose this, you have to pull the info out of them and ALL OF THEM, becasue there is saftey in numbers.
The only way you will get the truth is if they know that ALL OF THEM will be asked.
Ask abot the pnone call when they were advised to start looking. ASk all the Acting USA’s that filled in when their bosses got canned , got interviewed,but did not get the nod b/c Karl Rove said no.
Why is Karl Rove involved in picking Judges or USA’s ?
ASk everyone of them this question:
“when was the first time you heard of KArl Rove and what, if any, involvement do you believe he had with either your leaving or your successor’s selection?”
Go to it Rayne
Peace Patriot, Don’t know if Gov has to sign.
My understanding is that Bill Richardson will NOT have to sign it.
Oh, and 95, I once agreed with you. Now I believe the Executary is to totally out of control that it is time to have the investigation, which is what the NM resolution is calling for.
Rayne @ 109
Shoulda known your Rayne-dar would pick this thread up. I have to dash — to Georgetown and then to Waterloo, interestingly enough, could it be an omen? At least here I’m pretty sure CBC will tell me if there’s a verdict…
Have a nice time storming the castle, pups.
HotFlash @ 89
Oh, like the Vermont thing? Way cool!
Might as well delurk and thank all of you for making this trial fascinating, comprehensible, and exciting. I dug the red cap with the white fur out of the Christmas box and I’m ready for Fitzmas!
Once again, both in Marci’s post above and throughout the comments, FDL is providing historic trial coverage and disection.
I know some of it is speculation, but it is INTELLIGENT speculation, not partisan pandering.
I’ve been blog-hopping for a couple days, just to try and find anything comparable to FDL, and while there are emulators and admirers, there’s no place else like it right now. Between the colorful characters and their creative commentary it hard to find a more interesting and informative concoction anywhere in the whole media scene.
I’ve even come to appreciate the fashion commentary, whether snarky or complimentary, it does put a “cosmosex” spin on your otherwise very professional coverage.
This trend tends to spill over to Gabbly, where it thrives like a “Madness.” Be careful going over there, sometimes Gabbly gets a bit “fanatic” to put it mildly. (Remember, I’m new here, so I can still be shocked now and then…)
And like so many new pups who are proud of you folks, I am also very grateful you are there to “keep em’ honest” and keep us informed.
Thanks again; and to quote that old lonesome prophet, let me add that, from everything we saw yesterday, we might well assume “The End is Near!”
Someone please clean up the remains of the Bu$h Crime Family, we don’t want to be hurting any vultures by allowing them to eat this spoiled meat. Even scavengers have their limits regarding the rottenness of what they eat.
“Why is Karl Rove involved in picking Judges or USA’s ?”
Well, he IS the “political” guy, isn’t he?
Prairie Sunshine @
62
need to expand the timeline… Dana Priest was on top of extraordinary renditions soon after 9/11.
The jury notes seems to show a pattern of creating questions and then continuing to work on other things (and perhaps coming up with OTHER questions). While the latest questions (dealing with Count 3) are next sequentially after the “reasonable doubt” question, I do not think they are the jury’s response to Walton’s asking them to rephrase it. I think they are other questions that came up in the interval between asking it and then considering (or submitting) Walton’s request for the rephrase.
Therefore: I think it would be a mistake to conclude that the “reasonable doubt” question has been dealt with by these specific Question 3 questions. I think we may see the rephrased “reasonable doubt” question TODAY.
Marcy,thank you so much for all you have done,your live blogging had my skin tingling like never before. I will have happy feet for days after this verdict.You are brilliant!
Rayne @ 118
and I thought he was making a reference to The Madness of King George.
oh well, Madness! Madness! as a reference to treasony behavior works for me as well.
bg @
82
I think this is it:
According to Section 603 of Jefferson’s Manual, “there are various methods of setting an impeachment in motion”: 1) By charges made on the floor by a member of the House; 2) By charges preferred by a memorial filed by a House member; 3) By charges contained in a Resolution introduced by a House member; 4) By a message from the President; 5) By charges transmitted by a State legislature, or a grand jury; 5) By facts developed and reported by an investigating committee of the House.
looseheadprop @
38
Are you serious? Is that normal? I would think a transcript of the entire trial (well, the portions held with the jury in the courtroom) would be the FIRST thing provided to a jury.
They’re supposed to grok all this detailed testimony with just their memory and whatever notes they managed to scribble while trying to listen? I find that amazing. Might as well blindfold them and bleep out every third word of testimony and expect a rational decision.
twolf1 @
95
They must be starting in Proctology.
Re Dole and Shalala to head probe of Walter Reed.
Why can’t Congress do its job without “blue ribbon commissions.” In the end, we the netroots, need to force our critters to do their jobs, or vote them out.
I’m so sorry Ned Lamont fell short.
Also see:
http://frwebgate3.access.gpo.g…..9487616437 0 0 0&WAISaction=retrieve
In the > House there are various methods of setting an impeachment in
motion: by charges made on the floor on the responsibility of a Member
or Delegate (II, 1303; III, 2342, 2400, 2469; VI, 525, 526, 528, 535,
536); by charges preferred by a memorial, which is usually referred to a
committee for examination (III, 2364, 2491, 2494, 2496, 2499, 2515; VI,
543); by a resolution dropped in the hopper by a Member and referred to
a committee (Apr. 15, 1970, p. 11941; Oct. 23, 1973, p. 34873); by a
message from the President (III, 2294, 2319; VI, 498); by charges
transmitted from the legislature of a State (III, 2469) or territory
(III, 2487) or from a grand jury (III, 2488); or from facts developed
and reported
These appear to be the rules in place though I’m sure someone else on this site knows the real status.
chaboard @ 131
I’m kinda with chaboard here. I mean I thought that is why there was such a big deal about “striking” testimony from the record, so the jury wouldn’t have it before them in deliberations if it was improper. You can’t really strike anything from someone’s memory, indeed trying to do so may just implant it better.
Lying to the Grand Jury might be okay, come to think of it. Back in the sixties the FBI lied to the Grand Jury about me and I don’t remember any of them getting disciplined or anything. I had to fight an eleven year court case which I won, but they never paid my costs or anything. Hmmmm, I guess that’s what Mark means, just because you take an oath to tell the truth it doesn’t really matter if your fingers are crossed behind your back or something or if you ARE WITH the government.
95 @ 116
Jefferson’s Rules are the official rules of Congress–I believe re-voted on every session. They are NOT “the private musings of Mr. Jefferson.”
As for your advice, “never go to trial until you’ve got your ducks lined up in a row,” impeachment is not a trial. It is first of all an investigation. And it never really is a court trial. It is a political/legal proceeding, by its very nature. The consequence is NOT jail–deprivation of the accused’s liberty–but rather removal from office. Different (lesser) level of “proof.”
In any case, do you have any “reasonable doubt” that Bush and Cheney are criminals? They’ve ordered torture, and massive domestic spying, in direct violation of laws. They’ve used “signing statements” to unwrite the laws of Congress. They’ve funnelled billions of dollars in no-bid contracts to the VP’s own company (which is paying him $100,000 to a million a year “retirement,’ tied to Halliburton “profits”). They’ve slaughtered over a hundred thousand people in a war based on a 100% pack of lies. They outed a covert CIA agent and an entire network of deep cover WMD counter-proliferation agents/contacts around the world, putting their lives in acute danger. Need I go on?
Submitting a bill of impeachment to the U.S. House–whether done by a state legislature (or several of them), or by a grand jury, BEGINS a process. It is obviously not the full case, laid out for an impeachment vote.
What is your problem with this–whatever the fate of such a state or grand jury action? Do the states not have a right to say something about this, in your opinion? Are the states, and their citizens and their governments, not affected by the Bush Junta’s lawless, thieving fascist rule? The Rules of Congress, written by Thomas Jefferson, say that they DO have that right, and I’m sure that Jefferson’s thinking was, if you have an out-of-control executive, and a hampered, compromised Congress, the states will act in the interest of their citizens and of the American people as a whole, to try to force Congress to do something about it. It’s the ultimate “check and balance.” The people and their state governments.
Thanks, 95 @ 115 for your sage and measured thoughts on not getting ahead of ourselves. In San Francisco, we had a local ballot measure last November asking us to vote on a “Declaration of Policy that would call for the impeachment of President George W. Bush and Vice President Richard B. Cheney for violating the public trust and for knowingly harming the United States of America, California, and San Francisco.”
Much as I loathe the current administration, I voted against this proposition because it struck me as ineffective sense of the city grandstanding backed by no authority to enact change. John Dean has some thoughts on the subject, too.
Marie Roget @ 112
I’d say that was lousy timing, given the nine US troops killed by roadside bombs today.
The unreality-based administration won’t give that a second thought. Onward!
KestrelBrighteyes @ 17
shut up about that dove and the cracked corn and the spring flowers, willya? up here in the frozen north we’re walking on the same snow that fell in early december and we drool over seed catalogues, knowing nothing will come up till mid-june. so stop gloating and pay attention to the beginnings of the fall of the rovan empire…;-)
lison gare @ 140
While we wait for the Libby jury verdict, in the hope that our legal system is still, in some part, functioning, we contemplate a completely lawless regime in OUR White House, committing gross crimes against the American people, and others around the world, every day that goes by. The ONLY “check and balance” against this lawless junta is impeachment. We don’t have a presidential recall capability. We don’t even have the ability to recount the votes by which they were supposedly “re-elected” in 2004, because most of that so-called vote occurred on paperless touchscreen voting machines, and central tabulators, run on ‘TRADE SECRET,’ PROPRIETARY programming code, owned and controlled by Bushite corporations, and we have a Congress that also remains seriously compromised by non-transparent elections.
I think you made a mistake by voting against the city impeachment resolution. Impeachment is both a political and legal proceeding, involving not just crimes, such as those that would be prosecuted in a court of law, but also gross malfeasance. It is the ONLY “check and balance” against federal executive tyranny, especially in the absence of transparent elections. A city impeachment vote would help build momentum for the state legislature to do its duty, in this case, of submitting a bill of impeachment to the U.S. House. And it would help build momentum around the country, for other state legislatures to act. Opinion polls now show a majority in favor of impeachment, a huge majority who want the Iraq War ended (74%), a whopping majority opposed to any U.S. participation in a widened Mideast War (84%), and more than 70% disapproval of the Bush regime. (And if you look at opinion polls over the last several years, you find 60% to 70% disapproval of every major Bush policy, foreign and domestic.)
City and town resolutions, and county resolutions, and resolutons by all manner of civic and political groups, to impeach and remove this regime, are highly appropriate in this situation, because they reflect the will of THE PEOPLE, who want an end to this war, who want peace, and who want good, progressive, honest, functioning government.
What is wrong with expressing that? No, a city cannot implement impeachment, but what is wrong with the people expressing their utter contempt for this regime, by calling for impeachment, by building momentum for impeachment, by trying to MOVE this toxic cesspool of “military-industrial” corruption in Washington DC, to cleanse itself and start being a democracy again?
Here we sit, desperately hoping that the truth will prevail in one trial of these criminals, and that, somehow, if this one cog in our justice system starts turning, somehow our democracy will be saved.
“Madness, madness, madness!” indeed. But it should not be up to Patrick Fitzgerald and his team to set it all right. WE have to do our part, in whatever venues are still open to us, to insure that the will of the people is done. It is NOT being done now. We are still at war. Bush and Cheney are still sending U.S. soldiers to die in Iraq. And they are planning a SECOND war. We are bankrupt. They’ve stolen us into a $10 TRILLION deficit. And meanwhile, the planet is dying! We don’t have two years to waste on the multiple crises we are facing. They need to be removed NOW. Why shouldn’t the people express this, in a city vote–to push state legislatures, grand juries and Congress to act?
I don’t get it. I really don’t. Why would you be against such an expression of the peoples’ opinion, and the use of public pressure for change? You say “backed by no authority.” What about the authority of the American people–the ONLY sovereign in this land?
Peace Patriot, EPU’ed and all I have to say count me in as agreeing with everything you just said.
A bit late, but English major input:
“homed in”
Not “honed in.”
There is some very interesting information at this website:
http://www.perjury.us