Comments on: Wake Up and Smell the Questions http://firedoglake.com/2007/03/05/wake-up-and-smell-the-questions/ Firedoglake weblog Thu, 16 Feb 2012 05:35:49 -0600 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2 By: MRx http://firedoglake.com/2007/03/05/wake-up-and-smell-the-questions/#comment-540809 MRx Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:30:40 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/03/05/wake-up-and-smell-the-questions/#comment-540809 <p>I’d like to remind the “peanut gallery” that it occasionally happens that a defendant is innocent, and you want defense counsel to have the power to make the prosecution and judge and jury get the details correct down to the last detail, else an innocent man/woman might be convicted. If everyone would just agree to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, life would be much simpler. What would emptywheel be keeping herself busy with in such a world?</p> I’d like to remind the “peanut gallery” that it occasionally happens that a defendant is innocent, and you want defense counsel to have the power to make the prosecution and judge and jury get the details correct down to the last detail, else an innocent man/woman might be convicted. If everyone would just agree to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, life would be much simpler. What would emptywheel be keeping herself busy with in such a world?

]]> By: resipsa http://firedoglake.com/2007/03/05/wake-up-and-smell-the-questions/#comment-540661 resipsa Mon, 05 Mar 2007 22:49:57 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/03/05/wake-up-and-smell-the-questions/#comment-540661 <p>I am a lawyer (defense, too - but, for the indigent). This is so … infuriating! The defense attorneys, in particular, in high profile trials such as this one, are permitted to “game” the system, and as a result - the Judge, the jury, and ultimately justice. I know that we have an advocacy system. But it has gotten to the point: Let the best bull-sh-tter win and damn the truth! This is exactly what happens when the system allows attorneys to argue jury instructions to the judge, & in effect write the instructions themselves. As a result, the instructions become so convoluted and open to misinterpretation and nuances that the jurors can 1) misinterpret the instructions (which is exactly what the defense, in this case, wants) and 2) become so confused that they cannot see the forest for the “buds” on the trees. When I see the results of these types of shenanigans that $600.00 a hour can buy, I am ashamed of my profession. It is absolutely disgusting.! What makes it even worse is that then the Judge argues that he doesn’t know how to get out of the box he allowed himself to be put in by accepting the instructions in the first place. This case is so simple. Did Libby lie or not lie; did Libby perjure himself or not perjure himself; did Libby knowingly make misstatements or not make misstatements; and did Libby obstruct justice or not obstruct justice? Come on jurors - take some deep breaths, stand back from all the post-it notes and flip charts, and use your common sense - which is the essence of “reasonable” in “reasonable doubt!</p> I am a lawyer (defense, too – but, for the indigent). This is so … infuriating! The defense attorneys, in particular, in high profile trials such as this one, are permitted to “game” the system, and as a result – the Judge, the jury, and ultimately justice. I know that we have an advocacy system. But it has gotten to the point: Let the best bull-sh-tter win and damn the truth! This is exactly what happens when the system allows attorneys to argue jury instructions to the judge, & in effect write the instructions themselves. As a result, the instructions become so convoluted and open to misinterpretation and nuances that the jurors can 1) misinterpret the instructions (which is exactly what the defense, in this case, wants) and 2) become so confused that they cannot see the forest for the “buds” on the trees. When I see the results of these types of shenanigans that $600.00 a hour can buy, I am ashamed of my profession. It is absolutely disgusting.! What makes it even worse is that then the Judge argues that he doesn’t know how to get out of the box he allowed himself to be put in by accepting the instructions in the first place. This case is so simple. Did Libby lie or not lie; did Libby perjure himself or not perjure himself; did Libby knowingly make misstatements or not make misstatements; and did Libby obstruct justice or not obstruct justice? Come on jurors – take some deep breaths, stand back from all the post-it notes and flip charts, and use your common sense – which is the essence of “reasonable” in “reasonable doubt!

]]> By: selise http://firedoglake.com/2007/03/05/wake-up-and-smell-the-questions/#comment-540631 selise Mon, 05 Mar 2007 22:45:25 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/03/05/wake-up-and-smell-the-questions/#comment-540631 <p><a href="#comment-540387"><em>twolf1 @<br /> 137 </em></a></p> <blockquote><p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCivo2xO1Tg">fdl on cnn</a> from moments ago- youtube</p></blockquote> <p>thank you!!! wow.</p> twolf1 @
137

fdl on cnn from moments ago- youtube

thank you!!! wow.

]]> By: kayhouz http://firedoglake.com/2007/03/05/wake-up-and-smell-the-questions/#comment-540565 kayhouz Mon, 05 Mar 2007 22:34:45 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/03/05/wake-up-and-smell-the-questions/#comment-540565 <p>wrt = with respect to</p> wrt = with respect to

]]> By: cttom http://firedoglake.com/2007/03/05/wake-up-and-smell-the-questions/#comment-540526 cttom Mon, 05 Mar 2007 22:28:14 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/03/05/wake-up-and-smell-the-questions/#comment-540526 <p>What is wrt (shorthand)??? I think jury has guilty on one date not unanimous on another according to their question. Am I way wrong??</p> What is wrt (shorthand)??? I think jury has guilty on one date not unanimous on another according to their question. Am I way wrong??

]]> By: kayhouz http://firedoglake.com/2007/03/05/wake-up-and-smell-the-questions/#comment-540520 kayhouz Mon, 05 Mar 2007 22:27:11 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/03/05/wake-up-and-smell-the-questions/#comment-540520 <p>TalkLeft at 54: Thanks for clarifying that.</p> TalkLeft at 54: Thanks for clarifying that.

]]> By: joe falcone http://firedoglake.com/2007/03/05/wake-up-and-smell-the-questions/#comment-540511 joe falcone Mon, 05 Mar 2007 22:25:26 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/03/05/wake-up-and-smell-the-questions/#comment-540511 <p>I’m surprised no one has made explicit an inference about the jury that is much more obvious:<br /> When the jurors ask about the standard of reasonable doubt, and even more when they ask whether it means ‘humanly impossible’, WE ALREADY KNOW THEY BELIEVE HE’S GUILTY. </p> <p>You don’t ask the questions they’ve asked unless you believe he’s guilty for the most part, and what is holding you back is your understanding of reasonable doubt.</p> <p>Possible juror judgments:<br /> “I think he’s guilty, but I can’t be absolutely sure because I’ve still got a reasonable doubt.”<br /> “I think he’s guilty, but it’s humanly possible that he just forgot.”</p> <p>Not a possible juror judgment:<br /> “I’m voting not guilty, because he just isn’t, but I want to check what the reasonable doubt standard is, because it’ll help me understand future episodes of Law and Order.”</p> I’m surprised no one has made explicit an inference about the jury that is much more obvious:
When the jurors ask about the standard of reasonable doubt, and even more when they ask whether it means ‘humanly impossible’, WE ALREADY KNOW THEY BELIEVE HE’S GUILTY.

You don’t ask the questions they’ve asked unless you believe he’s guilty for the most part, and what is holding you back is your understanding of reasonable doubt.

Possible juror judgments:
“I think he’s guilty, but I can’t be absolutely sure because I’ve still got a reasonable doubt.”
“I think he’s guilty, but it’s humanly possible that he just forgot.”

Not a possible juror judgment:
“I’m voting not guilty, because he just isn’t, but I want to check what the reasonable doubt standard is, because it’ll help me understand future episodes of Law and Order.”

]]> By: Notta Flatlander http://firedoglake.com/2007/03/05/wake-up-and-smell-the-questions/#comment-540450 Notta Flatlander Mon, 05 Mar 2007 22:12:41 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/03/05/wake-up-and-smell-the-questions/#comment-540450 <p><a href="#comment-540420"><em>pow wow @ 151</em></a></p> <blockquote><p>Thanks also for your tips, Notta Flatlander @ 107.</p></blockquote> <p>Yer very welcome! I’m glad to be of *some* use around here…<br /> /extends bottom lip, looks at ground, hands in pockets, makes desultory stone-kicking motion with leg</p> pow wow @ 151

Thanks also for your tips, Notta Flatlander @ 107.

Yer very welcome! I’m glad to be of *some* use around here…
/extends bottom lip, looks at ground, hands in pockets, makes desultory stone-kicking motion with leg

]]> By: Rayne http://firedoglake.com/2007/03/05/wake-up-and-smell-the-questions/#comment-540437 Rayne Mon, 05 Mar 2007 22:10:09 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/03/05/wake-up-and-smell-the-questions/#comment-540437 <p><a href="#comment-540352"><em>litigatormom @ 117</em></a></p> <blockquote><p>Those aren’t just roots. Those things reach down past the Earth’s crust into the mantle….</p></blockquote> <p>Jeepers. She’s wearing some odd vestment made of bubblewrap. WTF?</p> litigatormom @ 117

Those aren’t just roots. Those things reach down past the Earth’s crust into the mantle….

Jeepers. She’s wearing some odd vestment made of bubblewrap. WTF?

]]> By: cinnamonape http://firedoglake.com/2007/03/05/wake-up-and-smell-the-questions/#comment-540419 cinnamonape Mon, 05 Mar 2007 22:06:57 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/03/05/wake-up-and-smell-the-questions/#comment-540419 <p><a href="#comment-540345"><em>portia.vz @ 111</em></a></p> <blockquote><p><a href="#comment-540329"><em>beth meacham @ 95</em></a></p> <blockquote><p>Whoa. They’ve got a guilty on Cooper, except that some of them think he’s guilty on the first date, and some think he’s guilty on the second date.</p> <p>Very interesting.</p></blockquote> <p>That’s the way I interpreted it. Sounds like he’s going to get nailed for at least part of it, maybe more.</p></blockquote> <p>My understanding of the instructions was that as long as the jurors reached unanimity on the COUNT that he lied on one of more elements that they didn’t have to reach unanimity on any single element.</p> <p>I brought this up earlier…that my reading of the instructions allowed for the jurors to deevide up between LIES and still say “YES! HE LIED!”<br /> THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A LIAR CONTRADICTS HIMSELF AND MAKES A SERIES OF LIES. PEOPLE AGREE THAT THE LIAR HAD TO LIE, THEY MAY JUST DISAGREE AS TO WHICH OF THE CONTRADICTORY STATEMENTS WAS THE LIE</p> portia.vz @ 111

beth meacham @ 95

Whoa. They’ve got a guilty on Cooper, except that some of them think he’s guilty on the first date, and some think he’s guilty on the second date.

Very interesting.

That’s the way I interpreted it. Sounds like he’s going to get nailed for at least part of it, maybe more.

My understanding of the instructions was that as long as the jurors reached unanimity on the COUNT that he lied on one of more elements that they didn’t have to reach unanimity on any single element.

I brought this up earlier…that my reading of the instructions allowed for the jurors to deevide up between LIES and still say “YES! HE LIED!”
THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A LIAR CONTRADICTS HIMSELF AND MAKES A SERIES OF LIES. PEOPLE AGREE THAT THE LIAR HAD TO LIE, THEY MAY JUST DISAGREE AS TO WHICH OF THE CONTRADICTORY STATEMENTS WAS THE LIE

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