
Last week Christy highlighted a case argued on Wednesday before the Supreme Court that had caught my eye – Hein v. Freedom From Religion Foundation. Said Christy,
This is going to be an interesting decision to watch for when the opinions are released this term, as it pits the religious conservative and libertarian conservative principles in direct opposition to one another, and puts the justices on the spot with regard to prior court precedents versus political expediency arguments. (A big open question on the way to arguments, again, that may or may not result in the chipping away of Roe v. Wade, among may other precedential decisions.)
For those who want to join me in slogging through the weeds, here are a couple primary source material links [all pdfs]: Brief by the Government for Hein; Brief by FFRF; and transcript of the oral arguments.
The case centers on the Bush White House Office of Faith Based and Community Initiatives, with three claims made by FFRF about improper governmental conduct (FFRF Brief, pp. 6-8):
- The Office of FBCI "organized conferences regarding federal grant programs that were intended to and had the effect of preferentially promot[ing] and advocat[ing] a climate conducive to funding for faith-based organizations, without similar advocacy for secular community-based organizations.”
- "Eight federal grant recipients directly and preferentially funded with Congressional taxpayer appropriations used those funds for services that integrate religion as a substantive and integral component in violation of the Establishment Clause.
- Various recipients of grants from the Department of Health and Human Services passed along these FBCI funds as sub-grants to organizations without using appropriate objective (i.e., non-religious) criteria.
Right now, however, these aren't the claims being discussed. Instead, the Court is wrestling with whether the FFRF has the right to bring the case in the first place. The legal term for this is "standing," and it basically means that you have to be the injured party to raise an issue in court. For instance, I can't sue anyone for outing Valerie Plame; she can.
In some cases involving the Freedom of Religion and Establishment Clauses of the first amendment, standing is easy to identify. In Engel v. Vitale, which outlawed school prayer, the case was brought by a group of parents on behalf of their children – people directly affected by having to deal with a teacher-led mandatory prayer. In Sherbert v. Verner, a 7th Day Adventist was fired from her job for not being willing to work on her Sabbath, then was refused unemployment compensation by the government. She could sue the government for treating her unemployment claim as a violation of her freedom of religion, because she was the one who was directly affected.
But who might have standing to challenge the FBCI program? It's a much fuzzier situation, and the FFRF chose the route offered by a 1968 case called Flast v. Cohen. Earlier cases prevented people from using their status as taxpayers to raise a legal challenge to government spending with which they disagreed. The place to argue that, said the court, was in the halls of Congress, not the courtrooms. But the Court left an exception in Flast for taxpayer challenges based on the Establishment Clause, and the FFRF is using that as the basis for their claim of standing.
I'm not a lawyer, just a pastor with more than a passing acquaintance with this branch of SCOTUS cases. After my own fast slogging, two issues stood out for me.
Role of and burden on the courts: Expanding (or refusing to restrict) the ability of taxpayers to sue like this may be a huge drain on the courts, as they sort out who has a legitimate beef. The questioning of the FFRF's lawyer, Andrew Pincus, got into the distinction between likely legitimate incidental spending (for instance, buying bagels for a prayer breakfast) and substantive programmatic spending that might be unconstitutional. Scalia led the questioning here, and described this issue quite clearly: "You really want to condemn the Federal courts to deciding case by case at the instance of all these people who feel passionately about this, case by case whether the expenditure was incidental or not. It doesn't seem to me an intelligent expenditure of any sensible person's time." (p. 46-7) For those justices worried about an overburdened judiciary, or the expansion of judicial power, this is not a small argument.
Executive Power: What appears to me to be the bigger issue in the immediate case, though, is not the religious question but the executive power question. The Government, represented by Solicitor General Paul Clement, argued that because the constitutional language speaks only about Congress (“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”) and not about the activities of the executive branch, there's no problem here. Again, Scalia gets to the heart of the matter, in raising a hypothetical situation (pp. 15-16):
JUSTICE SCALIA: [The President's] getting the money from Congress under a general, under a general appropriation. If he takes this money and he says here, use it for a religious purpose, that's okay?
GENERAL CLEMENT: He -
JUSTICE SCALIA: As far as standing is concerned, he can't be sued?
GENERAL CLEMENT: If he, if he's taking it from a general appropriation that makes no indication it's to go outside the Government so one could not in any way articulate that as an as-applied challenge to the appropriations, then I suppose that there would not be standing.
I'm not going to hang out at the Supreme Court waiting for the opinion to come down – it could be anytime between now and June! – but I'll be watching for it. Most likely, in my opinion, is that a slim majority will find a way to say the FFRF has standing, and return the case to the District Court to be heard on the merits. When all is said and done, I think a majority will say that there must be a way to test executive branch spending on allegedly religious matters – but exactly what they will come up with to define how standing is granted here is anyone's guess.
Speaking of guesses, here are a few: Jack Balkin of Balkinization stresses "dignitary harm" rather than financial effects as the best mechanism for recognizing standing, which one of his commenters notes appears to be supported by Justice Breyer in the oral arguments. Roger Citron at Findlaw, on the other hand, thinks the case will go to the government, very narrowly. The appellate decision favored the FFRF, and was written by the 7th circuit's Richard Posner, whom he and others consider to be one of the best appellate jurists around. Despite that, Citron feels the "minimalist ambitions of Chief Justice Roberts" may be the final piece that tips the scales against the FFRF. At SCOTUSBlog, Lyle Denniston writes
It is most difficult, however, to say just where the Court might now draw the line on taxpayer lawsuits claiming Establishment Clause violations. One reason to be hesitant about predictions is that Justice Antonin Scalia, who usually lines up on one side of an argument and stays there, this time was almost equally aggressive toward Clement's core argument and toward the basic argument made by the defender of this taxpayer lawsuit, Washington attorney Andrew J. Pincus.
Denniston's bottom line guess is that it might come down to Anthony Kennedy, with Scalia, Roberts, Samuel Alito, and Clarence "The Sphinx" Thomas on the side of the government and Stephen G. Breyer, Jr., Ruth Bader Ginsburg, David H. Souter and John Paul Stevens voting the other way.
One other little note. Say what you will about his politics and his jurisprudence, but Scalia has a wicked sense of snark, as noted by legal scholars across the spectrum, and he got off one of the best lines in a long time during the oral arguments of this case. He and several other justices bantered with the two opposing counsel about expenditures for things like the president's secret service protection or Air Force One travel to a "religious" conference, or paying for the bagels at a prayer breakfast, wondering if the amount of money at issue makes a difference, or whether there must be discrimination practiced in the purchasing for there to be standing. For instance, would a taxpayer have standing if bagels were only purchased for evangelical prayer breakfasts? Quipped Scalia, "what could be worse than not buying bagels for a Jewish prayer breakfast?" One writer (whose link I can't find now – aarrgh!) said that the lawyer being questioned ought to have asked for some time to be "put back on the clock" because of the length of the laughter.
It's a case that deals with religion, but right now the pressing issues are presidential authority and the role of the courts. Sound familiar? For those worried about the coming wiretap cases, the decision in this "religion case" could provide interesting insights into the reasoning of the court on other coming cases, like the warrantless wiretapping cases coming out of the Ninth Circuit courtroom of Judge Vaughn Walker.
Stay tuned — and if it is your style, you might want to pray. This one's going to be close.
Related posts:





Spotlight








Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Advanced search

Peterr!
Yes! Now to read!
hey~
Pray …..and “sacrifice a goat”
With a title like this one, I probably ought to apologize to everyone who thinks this is another Libby post.
kathleen @ 4
Still 707!!
Fitz for President.
Kathleen for vox populi.
I would refer to myself as a faith-based, separation of church and state kind of a guy. I’m quite serious. I am not trying to be funny.
Peterr, even before you got promoted, I enjoyed your comments. Would that we all were taken care of by pastors like you and RevDeb.
Mixing religion and politics has given us George W. Bush and years of Republican rule. I pray that we go back to a separation of church and state.
Come on in the water’s warm…
The previous thread has 242 posts in 11 minutes.
That may be a new FDL comments record.
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTTTTTTTZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 9
Yes, and there are other “faith-based, separation of church” kind of people out there, like me. I am also a pastor, not a lawyer, Peterr, and I appreciate your time and effort to put this together.
Still 707!!
pardon my ignorace, but what is “707″?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 9
Badwater @ 11
Sounds like you too are on the same wavelength – and so am I.
Wil @ 15
Still 707!!
pardon my ignorace, but what is “707″?
LOL – laughing out loud
707 – laughing out loud so hard that you fall out of your chair and laugh with your legs in the air.
707 is LOL upside down – laughing out loud
Oh, that Scalia, what a card! Jokes about Jews from the highest court in the land — such a sense of humor!
And it was such an obvious comment, too. *sigh*
Neil @ 12
Bet that record gets broken soon…
I am still amazed that religious voters never notice that Republicans like their votes, but have no intention of doing anything about their issues. Republicans just want to use those issues, election after election. It keeps working.
TeddySanFran @ 19
Maybe the humor loses something by clipping out only that line, but in the context of the drawn-out discussion of the hypothetical situation, it really took the wind out of the room. If anything, the target of the joke was not Jews but the lawyer being questioned.
Badwater @ 22
Lift the scales from their eyes, please: Brownback/Musgrave Theocracy Party 2008
Peterr @ 23
Perhaps, but can you imagine the outrage from Bill Donohue if Justice Ginsburg had cracked wise similarly, but about Catholics?
I thought I heard somewhere that the office of faithed based initiatives gave primarily to certain sects and discriminated against many others. Anyone know?
And how trad med would be all over it.
BTW delurking
…it pits the religious conservative and libertarian conservative principles…
there are no conservative principles, only pretend conservative principles that are immediately forgotten the moment the principle becomes inconvenient.
like all conservative decisions, this will come down to how it benefits the big funders of the Republican party. since those people won’t give a rats ass about this case on its merit, that means they’ll decide it based on electoral calculus.
look for the religious side to win, therefore — since they outnumber the libertarians by a large margin.
TeddySanFran @ 25
Absolutely! Bill Donohue will twist anything to be able to clutch his pearls and twitter about persecution. If he can’t see himself being attacked, then he can’t continue his martyr’s binge.
TeddySanFran @ 25
serving “jeezits” (That’s what we called the hosts when I was an altar boy)
Gnome de Plume @
10
My sentiments exactly.
‘Forgive them, for they know not what they sue’
;>)
TeddySanFran @ 19
I do not like these so called jokes. Thank you for the reminder that hateful remarks centering on discrimination is far removed humor. ;0)
I received a candidate questionaire guide from the Catholic Church I attended. It contained the names of candidates and their positions on the hot-button issues. The first question at the top of the page was worded thusly: How do you feel about government funding for programs that would destroy a human embryo? The answers were Support, Do not Support, Did not answer.
Most of the questions were similarly emotionally loaded. Though no explicit support for a candidate was made, all the republicans answered the questions the way the church wanted them answered and most of the democrats did not – though, sadly, some did.
Many churches are brazenly blurring the line or crossing it. The republicans will not stop them b/c they are working together for votes and money.
ironyesc8psem @ 26
That’s what FFRF is alleging. The details are in their original complaint. I’ll dig for the link, and post it later.
seems all they do is “preach” hate
Peterr @
36
Worse, the faith-based office provided seminars on how to grab federal contracting dollars, and publicized these government-sponsored seminars within their “base” only.
Jim Webb on Hardball now.
This case is so important. Most of us realize that the mingling of religious principles into our publically funded social service programs has done damage beyond measure. When Rove empowered the evangelical base,as a cynical voter strategy he unleashed more hatred and destruction than can be calculated. It damaged the social service networks and really now, how much volunteering is realistic?
Religious groups are not a substitute for trained scientists or counselors, and business adminstrators etc. Inserting faith vs. education has diminished the value of advanced degrees in the marketplace. Another aspect is the hatred unleashed towards the “unsaved” and set back women’s and LGBT civil rights horribly. There are probably studies available on hate crimes going up as the zelots have been empowered. No doubt in my little mind.
Many will be watching this case closely. Peterr glad to know you are too. My dissapointment is ameliorated knowing that there are progressive pastors out there, who recognize that the mixing of religion into the funding of public programs is a poison. Replacing science with faith, not a good idea. Not in this day and age. Makes one really suspect we are as a culture de-volving.
Ester Kaplan’s book With God on Their Side delves into the infiltration and corruption of all our federal agencies by the religios zelots. ie. prayer circles in the morning before government meetings at places such as the FDA and it goes on and on..thanks for a great post.
This is a huge topic. Just got the book American Fascists by Christopher Hedges, Already read American Theocracy by Kevin Phillips. It is a subject dear to my heart.
thanks again.
I have limited access to the toobz this week but when reviewing the VA website for information a couple of weeks ago, they have a whole webpage on their Faith based services.
This is important because if they are leaving services for our Veterans to faith based organizations then our Vets are in dire need.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 34
Amen to this, and Amen also to your previous comment about the desire of faith-based peoples to be seperate from the politicians in govt.
I was struck by she who should never ever be named statement on the Barbara Comstock roots video that “we are all Christians” … obvious pandering to the authoritarians parading as the faithful, but I wonder how conservative Jews and Muslims (who are all on board with the morality police-state) feel about that statement.
Webb saying “we” when he means to say “they”
and by preaching hate: they mock their very own religion, but they don’t see it.. how ironic.
Thanks peterr ref link
I am a Catholic in Baptist territory (and I was born here). And I am careful not to let anyone know. But obviously most of my dear friends are Baptist. But I love them dearly. And I think they like me.
After pounding religion into his kids all their lives, my father at age 78 has started reading books by Shelby Spong and other eye openers and is passing them onto me. He was shocked when I told him I had read Spong ten or 12 years ago.
Aiee, checking in from our vaca hotel in Santiago Chile — still no verdict… give us back the truth, already! Tnx for the updates and the excellent live-blogging, FDL.
((FDL)) (((Jane)))
Looking at Jim Webb on “Hardball”. I am in awe.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 45
depends on how tolerant they are, insanity is the way I see it
Reterr, thanks for this post. Opining, as I have for years, against faith-based initiatives, I’ve always wondered why it isn’t easy for taxpayers to sue over their money being used for religious purposes. Your discussion of “standing” answered my question as no one has before.
I only hope the thin opening that the law allows for this argument will prove to be sufficient. It just seems so wrong to me that tax dollars can be used to support anyone’s religion, no matter how well the abuse may be disguised. I have read many credible and well-documented stories of faith-based monies being used to expand and improve actual church buildings and other equally outrageous abuses.
The law has always allowed for church-sponsored organizations (Catholic and Jewish family social services, for instance) to integrate tax monies into genuinely non-religious programs. But these programs have to be open to all in the community and no prosletizing can be done. It’s simple, it worked and there was no need for the program to be expanded except to reward friends of the Bush Administration for their political support. It’s payola at its most obvious and if the SCOTUS can’t find a way to stop it, something’s really amiss.
ironyesc8psem @ 26
Here’s the source of that information — from the FFRF brief to the Supreme Court:
ironyesc8psem @ 49
Shoot, they tolerate me better here, where I live, than do some on this blog. Either way, it’s OK.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 52
;o)
Peterr,refresh my failing memory here if you can.
Didn’t 41’s “Thousand Points of Light” start this trend?
Shoot, they tolerate me better here, where I live, than do some on this blog. Either way, it’s OK.
;o)
Yea but you have to admit, like me, you are not all that careful about what you say here.
Pet Peeve (just one of many but none the less)
The “Solicitor General” is not a “General” I don’t recall who got started with that, some congreffcritter I think who kept referring to As*croft as “General.” The title is ‘Solicitor.’ The word ‘General’ modifies ’solicitor’, in a lower case ‘g’ way. Think about it this way: he is the general solicitor for the US.
While I’m at it, it’s “Egg’s McMuffin”, damnit.
Don’t even get me started on the complete mispronunciation “of “dis-section” as “die-section.” Didn’t you hear me?!?!?! I said don’t get me started!!
I’ll just go get another cup of coffee and relax now….
Raven @ 55
Shoot, they tolerate me better here, where I live, than do some on this blog. Either way, it’s OK.
;o)
Yea but you have to admit, like me, you are not all that careful about what you say here.
You got me. My hands are up.
I don’t understand why the fed govt should spend even one cent on any religious function like a prayer breakfast. I’m baffled by the argument that the courts will have to waste their time distinguishing between the government buying bagels for prayer breakfasts, and funding a federal church. They are the same, neither should be funded.
Bustednuckles @ 54
No, it goes back to Reagan, and in some respect further back than that. 41’s 1000 Points of Light stressed volunteerism and community service, highlighting people and groups as examples thereof. IIRC, many of those people and groups were religious, but I don’t think all of them were.
Peterr @ 51
Thanks…. nope no discrimition goin on there
now I remember where I heard about it: this morning on the radio, Elaine Boosler was talking about it, filling in for Stephani Miller.
none @ 58
I say *ahem* Amen brother!
From Roseanne Cash
The priest has been praying for your soul
and the doctor for your heart
does someone tell me how to live now that
we must live apart
and once we had a mother
but that’s all over now
so wish you well and let them go
just as soon as you know how
It’s strang the world we live in
where the church leads you to hell
and the lawyers get the money
for the lives they divide and sell
and the only truth believed in
is the one up on the screen
so we live our lives like fugitives
and we were born to live like queens
Once we all were daughters
now we never hear that name
and everything I could have learned
I just truned into begin
don’t send me more letters
with your ignorance and rage
and I don’t want your tight religion
not the sould you need to see
It’s strang the world we live in
where the church leads you to hell
and the lawyers get the money
for the lives they divide and sell
It’s strang the world we live in
where the church leads you to hell
and the lawyers get the money
for the lives they divide and sell
and the only truth believed in
is the one up on the screen
so we live our lives like fugitives
and we were born to live like queens
Notta Flatlander @ 56
I just quotes ‘em as I sees ‘em. The SCOTUS transcription says “General,” so perhaps you can take it up with them.
Thanks Peterr.
I’m a newbie (like you all didn’t know) so I haven’t had the chance to pis….er upset anyone.
OT: Saturday’s cuss-fest was impressive
Notta Flatlander @ 56
Oh, you were finished? I say, drop a little whiskey in that coffee and tell me more.
ironyesc8psem @ 65
I always miss the good stuff.
Thanks for the heads up.
You’ll know where to find me.
*g*
I view the Bush Administration as most discriminatory. This is not intended as a compliment.
Latest FaBlog: Fait Divers — “I’m Just Sayin’ “
Or better yet, “World without Sound”
I wish I was a Christian
and knew what to believe
I could learn a lot of rules
to put my mind at ease
I wish I had the money
to live just like a queen
with emeralds and cashmere
and every little thing
I wish the ones who love me
would never go away
but had to have my company
every single day
But who do I believe
in this world without sound?
who do I believe
once they put you in the ground?
who do I believe
when the night’s falling down?
I wish I lived in Paris
and dreamed in French each night
and had a dozen children
and raised them up just right
I wish I was John Lennon
free as a bird
and all of you who sit and stare
would hang on my every word
I wish I had the future
tied up with a string
then I would never feel the blows
the revolution brings
Who do I believe
in this world without sound?
Who do I believe
once they put you in the ground?
Who do I believe
when the night’s falling down?
I wish I was a Christian
but I cannot believe
cause no one in the Bible
craves my company
Bustednuckles @ 67
Serious Spew Alert!
You might want to set down any beverages before reading it, or cover your keyboard with a sheet of plastic.
OT: Cheney being treated with blood thinners after clot discovered in calf.
Previous discussions have focused on Cheneys mental state due to various medications. They will not release which medication he has been prescribed, but Heparin is speculated. Anyone know what further psychotic effects this our other blood thinners will have on his mental state?
Hillary and Obama? Are these the best of the best?
OT – hey TSF or OK, what was (my senator) Webb talking about on Hardball tonight? Gave the show a miss in favor of watching GMU/VCU college hoops.
Pectopah @ 72
It’s a cinch it won’t have to be brain thinners. I’m terrible. ;0)
Notta Flatlander : maybe you could solicit the general for a correction (my grammar and punctuation is atrocious)
Raven @ 55
Shoot, they tolerate me better here, where I live, than do some on this blog. Either way, it’s OK.
;o)
Yea but you have to admit, like me, you are not all that careful about what you say here.
{{{{{{{{ OKiddo }}}}}}}}
{{{{{{{{ Raven }}}}}}}}
And I, for one, like what you guys say.
There’d be no apostrophe in “Eggs McMuffin.” Dammit. Don’t get ME started!
HotFlash @ 77
;o)
Yea but you have to admit, like me, you are not all that careful about what you say here.
{{{{{{{{ OKiddo }}}}}}}}
{{{{{{{{ Raven }}}}}}}}
And I, for one, like what you guys say.
I like us too! I’ve posted song lyrics from Roseanne becuase I have such a visceral dislike for organized religion that I hesitate to even get started.
HotFlash @ 77
;o)
Yea but you have to admit, like me, you are not all that careful about what you say here.
{{{{{{{{ OKiddo }}}}}}}}
{{{{{{{{ Raven }}}}}}}}
And I, for one, like what you guys say.
Speaking for me: ;0)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 75
the mind is a terrible thing or maybe, lack there-of
OKKiddo, raven, and co.
. . . and I like you all too, but alas — The Kid is calling, and the long Libby threads pushed this post back into his story time. I’ll be back later, after he finishes reading me a story..
(Used to be, I’d read to him. Now he wants to read to me. Gotta love it!)
LoudounLib @ 74
Iran and some other stuff. This man has what it takes. ;0)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 73
Edwards is still in it.
LoudounLib @
74
Walter Reed; then Tweety asked about his ‘Nam war injuries, Webb laughed and said he’d rather talk about Iran, which he did.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 83
Yes, he does! Thanks for the info :-)
TeddySanFran @ 85
Thanks to you too! :-)
ironyesc8psem @ 81
I’m afraid there’s no denyin’
I’m just a dandelion
A fate I don’t deserve.
I’d be brave as a blizzard …
TIN MAN: I’d be gentle as a lizard …
SCARECROW: I’d be clever as a gizzard …
DOROTHY: If the Wizard is a wizard who will serve.
SCARECROW: Then I’m sure to get a brain …
TIN MAN: … a heart
DOROTHY: a home
LION: the noive!
Raven @ 88
and Toto?
[Mod Note; Zig alert. Please don’t use Quote This Comment again on this comment. Thanks.]
Pectopah @
72
I have had more than 30 blood clots pass through my legs in the past 12 years, getting treated with Heparin during the clot episodes, and mostly Coumadin and or Aspirin as well as Lovenox post-clot. While there are no psychotic effects from these medications, the increased blood flow if not properly regulated can put someone at risk for a stroke which can put stress on a person.
In short, the medications are not the danger, the state of mind issues of constantly being under threat of a stroke will increase stress which will of course cause irritability, depression, and other psychotic effects, but it is not the medication’s fault per se.
!
and Toto?
Pick on somebody your own size you big bully!
Thanks Raven, now I have a certain tune running around in my head. Grrrr.
Time to feed the kidz: yorkie (22 lbs) an a silky (14lbs) They’d give ya a run for your $ mr lion
Gnome de Plume @ 92
I’ll fight ya with one hand behind my back
I’ll fight ya standin on one foot
arrrrrrrrrr
Umm, okay.
Boo, no KO
Raven @ 96
Boo indeed…guess I’ll stick with the college hoops!
LoudounLib @ 97
i had it on picture in picture already! Go GM!
The Big Bang explains everything:
http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gm….._bang.html
ouiski @ 78
Did I actually put the hated extraneous apostrophe in there? O M G
/hanging head in shame/
I support our troops in Iraq radically. Bring them home. Now.
There is ONE thing that’s entirely appropriate about Cheney’s likely treatment – Coumadin is also known as Warfarin, also known as rat poison.
I am rather upset with my party, the Democrats. I don’t see much cooperation with the wishes expressed by the voters last November. What does it take Demos? Bring our soldiers home from Iraq. My God. What’s with you people?
Give the Palestinians a homeland.
I want the ‘twins’, Chelsea, Lieberman’s son and all the DLC member’s son’s and daughters suited up and on their way to Iraq.
No shit man. Voters wanted a change. We get Senator Reid tiptoeing around the senate floor like a child in the night.
I said it before, but I’ll repeat it: Senator Reid likes playing the role of senate minority leader. Less responsibility, and it’s always easier being a critic than being a leader.
So dump reid. He is timid and lacks vision.
Excellent discussion Peterr. Thanks for taking on this subject.
I want Reid, Harold Ford, Lieberman, Hillary and a bunch of others replaced.
Darn it.
They closed the comments on the cuss thread.
I was readier than a two peckered billygoat to dive into that one.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 105
I was watching the “10,000 Day War” on the History Channel the other day and there was President Thieu saying “The Americans cut and run on us”. The Democrats are loathe to get that label for the next 35 years. Hence their trepidation.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 105
I do too!!! Why won’t any media who cover Bush and the White House ask this question.
Raven – I am liking GMU’s chances tonight – fingers crossed!
Bustednuckles @ 109
Oy vey! That’s one ready goat!
pwrlght @ 111
sheeeeet, if I still did I’d want some of what ya’ll are smokin!
I missed my calling there.
LoudounLib @ 112
Yea, I’m a diehard Illini but this will do for a Monday!
Looks like Wes Clark lost all of my support and makes it clear he wont be running for Mark Pryors Senate seat by announcing his support of our Jr Lieberman.
excerpt from an email from Clark this afternoon:
FYI Senator Mark Pryor is among the worst of our Democratic crop.
He considers himself a student of Joe Lieberman and a proud member of the gang of fourteen.
Some votes he has cast
For Alito Cloture (note: he does claim to be an anti choice Dem)
For Bankruptcy bill
For free use of cluster bombs on civilians (cast during the Israel’s attack on Lebanon last summer.
Against the Reid amendment 9-16-06 iirc, this was against habeas corpus.
For Alice Fisher Assitant USAD
For Torture S3930
For the fence act
For cloture on child interstate abortion notification act
etc etc
bye bye General
My sons friend on the school bus asked him if he was a Democrat or Republican, he said he didn’t know (I thought I would let him decide for himself someday) so his friend told him that he was a Republican because Democrats kill babies. He asked me, “Mom, is that true?” I told him “That’s just plain crazy and not true?” and I told him to tell his friend that too. Man, I’m not so sure I’m going to be able to stand back and let him decide what party affiliation to belong to. He is only eight.
I am not pleased with most of the Democrats.
Beer thirty fer me. I’ll be here bright and early to start celebrating Scooters convictions.
Hasta pups.
Raven @ 110
even with 65% of the public behind you?
they’re wimps… obviously they care more about the perception than the fact that our troops are put in the middle of a civil war and are dying daily. ggggrrrrroooooowwwwwwwwl, jeebus that pisses me off!
Always try to remember, that the viewpoints here expressed by me are those of a radical. A proud, and unashamed radical though.
ANCHORAGE, Alaska (AP) — A helicopter is not necessarily a match for an angry moose.
Instead of slowing down after being shot with a tranquilizer dart, a moose charged a hovering helicopter used by a wildlife biologist, damaging the aircraft’s tail rotor and forcing it to the ground.
Neither the pilot nor the biologist was injured, but the moose was maimed by the spinning rotor and had to be euthanized, wildlife officials said.
“It just had to be one of those quirky circumstance. Even dealing with bears and goats and moose and wolves, this is pretty unusual and truly a very unique situation,” said Doug Larsen, regional supervisor for the Division of Wildlife Conservation.
Beer 30 for me for now, too. I gotta feed my four legged pups and my two legged one.
ESAR, I understand the urge to bolt away from Wes Clark with his support of Pryor, but before you do, understand that he is playing the Bill Clinton gameplan by doing this. When Clinton was in his pre-announce phase before his run for the White House, he had to do some fundraisers for some AR pols that were as distasteful to him as Pryor is to you. Its definitely a cause for concern to note, but keep in mind Clark has to build support in his home state so he has to do things like that.
Fini FiniTOOBZ! @ 125
Like Hillary had to vote for the war.
Number one on my short list? Lieberman.
. Would you favor or oppose Congress taking each of the following actions in regards to the war in Iraq?
2007 Mar 2-4 (sorted by “favor”) Favor Oppose
Requiring U.S. troops to come home from Iraq if Iraq’s leaders fail to meet promises to reduce violence there 77 20
Requiring U.S. troops returning from Iraq to stay in the U.S. for at least a year before being re-deployed to Iraq 76 21
Setting a time-table for withdrawing all U.S. troops from Iraq by the end of next year 60 39
Putting a cap or limit on the number of U.S. troops serving in Iraq at any one time 54 42
Voting to revoke the authority it granted President Bush in 2002 to use U.S. military force in Iraq 44 52
Denying the funding needed to send any additional U.S. troops to Iraq 37 61
(New Gallup Poll just released)
Raven @ 126
Two different deals entirely. There are things you HAVE to do and things you DECIDE to do. When running for President of the United States it is considered necessary to gain the support of the US Senators from your party representing your home state. That fundraiser is a HAVE to do.
When acting as a US Senator and faced with a vote to authorize a war known to be on dubious grounds and you choose to vote yes, that is a DECISION made willingly with political calculations taken into account.
Hillary punted and missed, Clark is trying to simply get onto the playing field.
I watch Hillary’s political actions daily. The Senator is certainly not changing my perception of her. If anything, this woman who once I would have walked barefoot across live coals for is making things worse.
Raven @ 123
In the 70’s, I had a friend who crashed his VW bus into a wild burro on a lonely desert road. The burro walked away, with a possible headache, but that’s all. My friend was stranded for hours, with his totalled vw, waiting to thumb a ride.
Peterr:
Thanks for your thoughtfull post. But I’m curious as to why you didn’t cite the 1963 landmark decision on “Murray v. Curlett” for the reason prayers are banned in public schools. (This Murray, may I remind you, was Ms. Madalyn Murray O’Hair who was subsequently murdered.)
Fini – I respect your opinion, but, I for one am sick and tired of kissing up to these habeas hating torture mongers. Perhaps this isn’t a party for me (Dem). I will fight these folks tooth and nail, however, I will not cozy up with them for any reason. ***k the triangle.
How many bloody lines in the sand am I supposed to back up and redraw? Another step or two and we fall off the cliff, imo.
Does anyone beside myself think that my party, the Demos, pay no attention to what we say?
Raven @ 126
This was an eye-opener
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/48729/
Oklahoma kiddo @ 134
After they chose Lieberman to give the Democratic radio address this weekend, I would tend to agree.
Eureka Springs, AR @ 133
Not bad. Not bad at all. ;0)
It is considered necessary to gain the support of the US Senatorsfrom your party representing your home state.
Ok, that sounds pretty weak to me, sort of like predicating going to war on a lie but who am I, just some schmuck!
Wes’s support of Pryor is disheartening, since it ends our best primary chance against Pryor. Too bad, that.
Lieberman giving the radio address this weekend. Can you believe that? I’ve about had it.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 134
I do, 1 of 2 things need to occur before they’ll listen: Remove corporate money from the equation or make the politicians afraid of the netroots.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 134
Zilch, zero, nada, if that much.
In the 70’s, I had a friend who crashed his VW bus into a wild burro on a lonely desert road. The burro walked away, with a possible headache, but that’s all. My friend was stranded for hours, with his totalled vw, waiting to thumb a ride.
I bought a 72 VW Bus from a buddy who had these enormous “cow catcher” bumpers made down in Mexico for just such a situation!
OT…
Rachel Maddow on Countdown moments ago:
“Ann Coulter needs publicity like a tape-worm needs a large intestine.”
Raven
Got a piece of an ass in ol Mexico eh?
I am beginning to think about contemplating about becoming upset.
newtonusr @ 144
Oh, snap!
We have got to grass roots the DLC out of the party. The DLC is a cancer.
Eureka Springs, AR @ 133
FWIW, I agree with you. You have to remember that I was not a Democrat from 1994 to 9/11 and fled the party in the face of Clintonian triangulation. The only reason I returned to the fold is because in the face of BushCo fascism it is more important to combat the authoritarians in a unified front than to try to combat them from a non political or third party angle of attack.
The numbers are on our side in this battle by remaining in the same bunker as the Pryors and Clintons of the party so that we can return to power and THEN continue the inner party debate once we have regained the reigns of power. I feel your pain completely, I am very frustrated with Sen Evan Bayh from my home state.
OT – Domenici called Iglesias FOUR times, not one. We’re talking serial harassment here, folks! Should be a good hearing tomorrow.
newtonusr @ 144
yep and the tape-worm is fatter and don’t have adam’s apple, probably better looking and hates diet coke.
I like those who battle for principle. ;0)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 152
we got no class
and we got no principles!
Raven @ 153
We can’t even think of a word to rhyme…
Veritas78 @ 150
oh, he’s toast. got a link for that?
Raven @ 153
;0)
Heather Wilson ‘fesses up.
I am absolutely outraged that Lieberman is speaking for my party, and by implication me, this weekend.
This Lieberman thing on the radio this weekend, I look on as being symbolic. The Demos in control are sending me a message. And the message is quite clear.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 158
But we have to go along with him because he’s a democratic senator!
Lieberman. I am so pis’ed off!
Yes Fini, but there needs to be a difference in the mediocre Dems and their Republican counterparts to begin with… before they get any sort of pass from this firepup. Wes via his support for Pryor is either lying about his true intentions or weak or naive beyond exceptable bounds. Pryor is far, far, from any Clinton. (Not that I support a Clinton)
If Hillary and Bill and the rest of these goddamned so called Demos had done what was expected of them, then it would be Lamont doing the radio gig this weekend. Oh I’m mad!
Raven @ 160
Now you’re just being disingenuous, that’s not what I said at all.
Wes Clark is running for President. He is from Arkansas. He has to make nice with the Democratic Senator from Arkansas because of his running for President and the need to carry his home state should he get the nomination to run. It is necessary for him to be supportive of folks like Sen. Pryor at times like these for future political considerations such as this.
I am not someone who supports senators just because there is a D after their name. I go round and round with Sen. Evan Bayh all the time. All I was saying to ESAR was to not hold that fundraiser against Wes Clark too much because while it is something to note for the future it does not necessarily mean he is a fan of Mark Pryor, its just something he had to do for his run for President.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 158
you should be, in the 2000 debate he could have wiped cheney off the map (especially for the haliburton line) but no. Then on the day of the election, Randi Rhodes (back when she was local talk show host in WPB FL) spoke to him, he didn’t take her seriously, I remember that conversation,about the voting irregularities, specifically the butterfly ballot (yeah, I helped count em, ballots, history in the making, during the recount in West Palm Beach, I happened to work in the building where the recount took place, still do) he sucks something fierce a &(&*^*&^^&&&(&(^^^%%&*( words don’t even begin to describe him. I think I personally shut down Kos’s site updating during the primary when Lamont beat him.. He’s a major POS, there, I sorta feel better.
btw, Pryor said in a committee meeting on cspan a few months back that he did not see any reason why the internet (neutrality) shouldn’t be chopped up in three or four or five pieces. He expressed it in a manner as if he were preparing to slice a pizza for the kids.
Anyway I just wanted to alert folks of Wes’s support for a Leiberlovin’ Senator, I didn’t mean to tie up the thread. Sorry Peterr.
Oddly enough, this entire conversation here now is related to a couple of blog posts from today. One is from our friend Matt Browner Hamlin and one I wrote to contribute to the conversation. You can read both at my place if you click my name. My post is called Discourse in a ‘Screamocracy’.
foolsgold @
132
Because Engel v. Vitale was a 1962 case, decided a year earlier. These two, along with Abington Township School District v. Schempp which addressed compulsary Bible reading (decided along with Murray v. Curlett in 1963), were the cases that reshaped the school prayer debate.
Fini FiniTOOBZ! @ 164
OK man, I’ll back off. This ain’t the hill I’m going to die on and Wes Clark isn’t going to get elected anyway.
I may not always be crystal clear in how I word things, but you guys should know our interests are far more in alignment than they are different. I’m as upset about the fact that in two months we have had no action on Iraq from the do nothing Dems as you guys are.
In my blog posting today I pointed out that for the first time in a long time, the more radical elements of the party and the reasonable practical folks are in alignment in wondering what happened to the mandate given to the politicians back in November. You’d think they would understand clearly the people want out of Iraq and they have free reign to not do the timid thing they felt forced to do for 6 years.
Fini FiniTOOBZ! @ 170
I agree with you but I think this is a perfect example of the fact that all these people are much more interested in getting re-elected than they are in being responsive. Paralysis through analysis.
Raven @ 171
Of course, but this is never going to go away as long as we have a democracy. The next election is always the top priority of every elected official – its all about job security. I don’t think this issue will ever go away.
Of course, but this is never going to go away as long as we have a democracy. The next election is always the top priority of every elected official – its all about job security. I don’t think this issue will ever go away.
I guess that’s why I gave up on this crap in 1975 and didn’t re-engage until they lit this war up. A lot of us retreated to “working in the community” and blew off national politics.
Raven @ 173
Same thing I did in ‘94-’01. This is THE frustration for those of us activists who have bolder steps in mind for our representatives. These folks have elections to contend with, and a fickle public that doesnt think about politics until election time.
There is always an opponent ready to use their voting record against them, so politicians are always extra careful about how they support initiatives and policies while doing complex calculations of a possible mood of a possible electorate in the next election on their minds. Its a recipe for inaction and timid behavior people like you and I can’t stand.
It’s easy for us to see clearly what they should be doing, we’re activists and partisans on one side of an issue. The politicians are supposedly partisan but if you look at how things are done in DC, there is only one party in power – the Power Party. You and I are in the electorate that they fear because we are the only ones who can fire and hire them.
Its our job to agitate for or against things, its their job to decide which segment of the electorate will be most pissed off by whatever range of options they have to chose from. Its guaranteed to piss off principled folks like us no matter what they do, even when they eventually agree with us.
Badwater @
22
They think that when they die they’re going to go to heaven too
My form of prayer doesn’t involve asking a deity to change events to my liking. If it did, however, I would pray to God that she would save us from fundamentalists! Then I’d throw in a request to preserve separation of church and state, for the benefit of both.
Clarence “The Sphinx” Thomas? I don’t get it. Is the Sphinx a mythical creature with superhuman powers of sleeping?
This is an interesting case for certain. I’m not a lawyer, just someone who likes to argue. But I’d argue that a) Congress cannot make laws establishing religion; b) control of spending is a major – if not the major power held by Congress; c) there is no clause permitting Congress to cheat by authorizing spending while pretending not to know it’s for supporting religious organizations.
Were it so, Congress could merely cut deals with the Preznit authorizing, say, $5b for “Military Instruction in Ethical and Moral Conduct For Counter-Insurgency”. Which would sound like “how not to torture and solicit bribes from the local populace”. But which would be, known to all, intended for “killing them or converting them to Christianity”. In other words, Congress cannot authorize such violations of the first amendment through feigned ignorance any more than through explicit intent. Pretending to be a dumbass is not, as far as I am aware, a sanctioned method for circumventing the law in the last 1000 years of common law; forgive my lack of a handy Latin phrase.
I am actually for religious organizations receiving fund for non-profit, charity-driven purposes. But not if it’s tied to promoting particular religions or sectarian ends (except, of course, to the degree that your act of practicing a positive moral value casts a positive light on your religious beliefs – that would be kooky).
Check out this link about Sikh “free kitchens”. While they are not required to be vegetarians, they provide vegetarian food so that their charity may be received by all. They require no one to convert or profess anything to receive their charity.
There is a big difference between practicing religious values and promoting your sect. I disagree with those who would banish all religious reference from the public square; but I hold the difference betwen practicing or professing and promoting your particular religion or sect is the definitive litmus test for the establishment clause.
I woulda been a good laywer, I won’t kidja.
JT @
177
“The Sphinx,” because he sits there during the oral arguments and rarely says a word. His explanation is that “we’ve invited these lawyers here to tell us what they think, so we ought to listen to them and not do so much talking ourselves.” I find that to be a bit of a cop-out, in that part of listening to the lawyers is probing their arguments, and sifting out the spin from the logic. That’s the one shot a justice has to speak directly with the two sides, the only chance to engage in a dialogue, and to fail to use that opportunity is not a plus in my book.
But hey, he’s on the court and I’m not, so he gets to do what he wants — and so do I.
It’s our country. It’s our Constitution. Some nefarious folks are trying to game the establishment clause in an attempt to setup a state religion.
So, the correct question to ask is “Who doesn’t have standing in any case like this?”
All U.S. citizens have a stake in this, therefore any and all U.S. citizens have standing.
I guess this is just emblematic of what’s happening over in Iraq. Under the Bush idea of religious domination…er, freedom, any Iraqi wanting a post-Saddam Hussein secular democracy didn’t have standing, while all the sharia-spouting, ultra-hardcore Islamicists who want a monolithic, monopolistic Islamic Republic in the new, liberated Iraq did have standing, at the torture-chamber Iraqi Interior Ministry, most of southern Iraq including Basra and of course, the al Qaeda who were let loose inside Iraq after Bush invaded and drove the more secular Sunni Baathists from power.
So, Bush and his hardcore, right-wing religious pals have their eyes and their shriveled hearts set on making America into an image of Iraq? Sectarian violence? Religious monopoly? Hell on earth?
If the Supreme Court justices don’t stop this blatant attempt to destroy the wall separating church and state, then they will be branded as traitors to one of the pillars of our free society.
I’ve heard – from people who’ve heard about and seen it first hand – that he is often literally asleep. I wonder if he has those comic book glasses with the eyes painted on.