
Last week Christy highlighted a case argued on Wednesday before the Supreme Court that had caught my eye - Hein v. Freedom From Religion Foundation. Said Christy,
This is going to be an interesting decision to watch for when the opinions are released this term, as it pits the religious conservative and libertarian conservative principles in direct opposition to one another, and puts the justices on the spot with regard to prior court precedents versus political expediency arguments. (A big open question on the way to arguments, again, that may or may not result in the chipping away of Roe v. Wade, among may other precedential decisions.)
For those who want to join me in slogging through the weeds, here are a couple primary source material links [all pdfs]: Brief by the Government for Hein; Brief by FFRF; and transcript of the oral arguments.
The case centers on the Bush White House Office of Faith Based and Community Initiatives, with three claims made by FFRF about improper governmental conduct (FFRF Brief, pp. 6-8):
- The Office of FBCI "organized conferences regarding federal grant programs that were intended to and had the effect of preferentially promot[ing] and advocat[ing] a climate conducive to funding for faith-based organizations, without similar advocacy for secular community-based organizations.”
- "Eight federal grant recipients directly and preferentially funded with Congressional taxpayer appropriations used those funds for services that integrate religion as a substantive and integral component in violation of the Establishment Clause.
- Various recipients of grants from the Department of Health and Human Services passed along these FBCI funds as sub-grants to organizations without using appropriate objective (i.e., non-religious) criteria.
Right now, however, these aren't the claims being discussed. Instead, the Court is wrestling with whether the FFRF has the right to bring the case in the first place. The legal term for this is "standing," and it basically means that you have to be the injured party to raise an issue in court. For instance, I can't sue anyone for outing Valerie Plame; she can.
In some cases involving the Freedom of Religion and Establishment Clauses of the first amendment, standing is easy to identify. In Engel v. Vitale, which outlawed school prayer, the case was brought by a group of parents on behalf of their children - people directly affected by having to deal with a teacher-led mandatory prayer. In Sherbert v. Verner, a 7th Day Adventist was fired from her job for not being willing to work on her Sabbath, then was refused unemployment compensation by the government. She could sue the government for treating her unemployment claim as a violation of her freedom of religion, because she was the one who was directly affected.
But who might have standing to challenge the FBCI program? It's a much fuzzier situation, and the FFRF chose the route offered by a 1968 case called Flast v. Cohen. Earlier cases prevented people from using their status as taxpayers to raise a legal challenge to government spending with which they disagreed. The place to argue that, said the court, was in the halls of Congress, not the courtrooms. But the Court left an exception in Flast for taxpayer challenges based on the Establishment Clause, and the FFRF is using that as the basis for their claim of standing.
I'm not a lawyer, just a pastor with more than a passing acquaintance with this branch of SCOTUS cases. After my own fast slogging, two issues stood out for me.
Role of and burden on the courts: Expanding (or refusing to restrict) the ability of taxpayers to sue like this may be a huge drain on the courts, as they sort out who has a legitimate beef. The questioning of the FFRF's lawyer, Andrew Pincus, got into the distinction between likely legitimate incidental spending (for instance, buying bagels for a prayer breakfast) and substantive programmatic spending that might be unconstitutional. Scalia led the questioning here, and described this issue quite clearly: "You really want to condemn the Federal courts to deciding case by case at the instance of all these people who feel passionately about this, case by case whether the expenditure was incidental or not. It doesn't seem to me an intelligent expenditure of any sensible person's time." (p. 46-7) For those justices worried about an overburdened judiciary, or the expansion of judicial power, this is not a small argument.
Executive Power: What appears to me to be the bigger issue in the immediate case, though, is not the religious question but the executive power question. The Government, represented by Solicitor General Paul Clement, argued that because the constitutional language speaks only about Congress (“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”) and not about the activities of the executive branch, there's no problem here. Again, Scalia gets to the heart of the matter, in raising a hypothetical situation (pp. 15-16):
JUSTICE SCALIA: [The President's] getting the money from Congress under a general, under a general appropriation. If he takes this money and he says here, use it for a religious purpose, that's okay?
GENERAL CLEMENT: He -
JUSTICE SCALIA: As far as standing is concerned, he can't be sued?
GENERAL CLEMENT: If he, if he's taking it from a general appropriation that makes no indication it's to go outside the Government so one could not in any way articulate that as an as-applied challenge to the appropriations, then I suppose that there would not be standing.
I'm not going to hang out at the Supreme Court waiting for the opinion to come down - it could be anytime between now and June! - but I'll be watching for it. Most likely, in my opinion, is that a slim majority will find a way to say the FFRF has standing, and return the case to the District Court to be heard on the merits. When all is said and done, I think a majority will say that there must be a way to test executive branch spending on allegedly religious matters - but exactly what they will come up with to define how standing is granted here is anyone's guess.
Speaking of guesses, here are a few: Jack Balkin of Balkinization stresses "dignitary harm" rather than financial effects as the best mechanism for recognizing standing, which one of his commenters notes appears to be supported by Justice Breyer in the oral arguments. Roger Citron at Findlaw, on the other hand, thinks the case will go to the government, very narrowly. The appellate decision favored the FFRF, and was written by the 7th circuit's Richard Posner, whom he and others consider to be one of the best appellate jurists around. Despite that, Citron feels the "minimalist ambitions of Chief Justice Roberts" may be the final piece that tips the scales against the FFRF. At SCOTUSBlog, Lyle Denniston writes
It is most difficult, however, to say just where the Court might now draw the line on taxpayer lawsuits claiming Establishment Clause violations. One reason to be hesitant about predictions is that Justice Antonin Scalia, who usually lines up on one side of an argument and stays there, this time was almost equally aggressive toward Clement's core argument and toward the basic argument made by the defender of this taxpayer lawsuit, Washington attorney Andrew J. Pincus.
Denniston's bottom line guess is that it might come down to Anthony Kennedy, with Scalia, Roberts, Samuel Alito, and Clarence "The Sphinx" Thomas on the side of the government and Stephen G. Breyer, Jr., Ruth Bader Ginsburg, David H. Souter and John Paul Stevens voting the other way.
One other little note. Say what you will about his politics and his jurisprudence, but Scalia has a wicked sense of snark, as noted by legal scholars across the spectrum, and he got off one of the best lines in a long time during the oral arguments of this case. He and several other justices bantered with the two opposing counsel about expenditures for things like the president's secret service protection or Air Force One travel to a "religious" conference, or paying for the bagels at a prayer breakfast, wondering if the amount of money at issue makes a difference, or whether there must be discrimination practiced in the purchasing for there to be standing. For instance, would a taxpayer have standing if bagels were only purchased for evangelical prayer breakfasts? Quipped Scalia, "what could be worse than not buying bagels for a Jewish prayer breakfast?" One writer (whose link I can't find now - aarrgh!) said that the lawyer being questioned ought to have asked for some time to be "put back on the clock" because of the length of the laughter.
It's a case that deals with religion, but right now the pressing issues are presidential authority and the role of the courts. Sound familiar? For those worried about the coming wiretap cases, the decision in this "religion case" could provide interesting insights into the reasoning of the court on other coming cases, like the warrantless wiretapping cases coming out of the Ninth Circuit courtroom of Judge Vaughn Walker.
Stay tuned -- and if it is your style, you might want to pray. This one's going to be close.
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Peterr!
Yes! Now to read!
hey~
Pray …..and “sacrifice a goat”
With a title like this one, I probably ought to apologize to everyone who thinks this is another Libby post.
kathleen @ 4
Still 707!!
Fitz for President.
Kathleen for vox populi.
I would refer to myself as a faith-based, separation of church and state kind of a guy. I’m quite serious. I am not trying to be funny.
Peterr, even before you got promoted, I enjoyed your comments. Would that we all were taken care of by pastors like you and RevDeb.
Mixing religion and politics has given us George W. Bush and years of Republican rule. I pray that we go back to a separation of church and state.
Come on in the water’s warm…
The previous thread has 242 posts in 11 minutes.
That may be a new FDL comments record.
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTTTTTTTZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 9
Yes, and there are other “faith-based, separation of church” kind of people out there, like me. I am also a pastor, not a lawyer, Peterr, and I appreciate your time and effort to put this together.
Still 707!!
pardon my ignorace, but what is “707″?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 9
Badwater @ 11
Sounds like you too are on the same wavelength - and so am I.
Wil @ 15
Still 707!!
pardon my ignorace, but what is “707″?
LOL - laughing out loud
707 - laughing out loud so hard that you fall out of your chair and laugh with your legs in the air.
707 is LOL upside down - laughing out loud
Oh, that Scalia, what a card! Jokes about Jews from the highest court in the land — such a sense of humor!
And it was such an obvious comment, too. *sigh*
Neil @ 12
Bet that record gets broken soon…
I am still amazed that religious voters never notice that Republicans like their votes, but have no intention of doing anything about their issues. Republicans just want to use those issues, election after election. It keeps working.
TeddySanFran @ 19
Maybe the humor loses something by clipping out only that line, but in the context of the drawn-out discussion of the hypothetical situation, it really took the wind out of the room. If anything, the target of the joke was not Jews but the lawyer being questioned.
Badwater @ 22
Lift the scales from their eyes, please: Brownback/Musgrave Theocracy Party 2008
Peterr @ 23
Perhaps, but can you imagine the outrage from Bill Donohue if Justice Ginsburg had cracked wise similarly, but about Catholics?
I thought I heard somewhere that the office of faithed based initiatives gave primarily to certain sects and discriminated against many others. Anyone know?
And how trad med would be all over it.
BTW delurking
…it pits the religious conservative and libertarian conservative principles…
there are no conservative principles, only pretend conservative principles that are immediately forgotten the moment the principle becomes inconvenient.
like all conservative decisions, this will come down to how it benefits the big funders of the Republican party. since those people won’t give a rats ass about this case on its merit, that means they’ll decide it based on electoral calculus.
look for the religious side to win, therefore — since they outnumber the libertarians by a large margin.
TeddySanFran @ 25
Absolutely! Bill Donohue will twist anything to be able to clutch his pearls and twitter about persecution. If he can’t see himself being attacked, then he can’t continue his martyr’s binge.
TeddySanFran @ 25
serving “jeezits” (That’s what we called the hosts when I was an altar boy)
Gnome de Plume @
10
My sentiments exactly.
‘Forgive them, for they know not what they sue’
;>)
TeddySanFran @ 19
I do not like these so called jokes. Thank you for the reminder that hateful remarks centering on discrimination is far removed humor. ;0)
I received a candidate questionaire guide from the Catholic Church I attended. It contained the names of candidates and their positions on the hot-button issues. The first question at the top of the page was worded thusly: How do you feel about government funding for programs that would destroy a human embryo? The answers were Support, Do not Support, Did not answer.
Most of the questions were similarly emotionally loaded. Though no explicit support for a candidate was made, all the republicans answered the questions the way the church wanted them answered and most of the democrats did not - though, sadly, some did.
Many churches are brazenly blurring the line or crossing it. The republicans will not stop them b/c they are working together for votes and money.
ironyesc8psem @ 26
That’s what FFRF is alleging. The details are in their original complaint. I’ll dig for the link, and post it later.
seems all they do is “preach” hate
Peterr @
36
Worse, the faith-based office provided seminars on how to grab federal contracting dollars, and publicized these government-sponsored seminars within their “base” only.
Jim Webb on Hardball now.
This case is so important. Most of us realize that the mingling of religious principles into our publically funded social service programs has done damage beyond measure. When Rove empowered the evangelical base,as a cynical voter strategy he unleashed more hatred and destruction than can be calculated. It damaged the social service networks and really now, how much volunteering is realistic?
Religious groups are not a substitute for trained scientists or counselors, and business adminstrators etc. Inserting faith vs. education has diminished the value of advanced degrees in the marketplace. Another aspect is the hatred unleashed towards the “unsaved” and set back women’s and LGBT civil rights horribly. There are probably studies available on hate crimes going up as the zelots have been empowered. No doubt in my little mind.
Many will be watching this case closely. Peterr glad to know you are too. My dissapointment is ameliorated knowing that there are progressive pastors out there, who recognize that the mixing of religion into the funding of public programs is a poison. Replacing science with faith, not a good idea. Not in this day and age. Makes one really suspect we are as a culture de-volving.
Ester Kaplan’s book With God on Their Side delves into the infiltration and corruption of all our federal agencies by the religios zelots. ie. prayer circles in the morning before government meetings at places such as the FDA and it goes on and on..thanks for a great post.
This is a huge topic. Just got the book American Fascists by Christopher Hedges, Already read American Theocracy by Kevin Phillips. It is a subject dear to my heart.
thanks again.
I have limited access to the toobz this week but when reviewing the VA website for information a couple of weeks ago, they have a whole webpage on their Faith based services.
This is important because if they are leaving services for our Veterans to faith based organizations then our Vets are in dire need.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 34
Amen to this, and Amen also to your previous comment about the desire of faith-based peoples to be seperate from the politicians in govt.
I was struck by she who should never ever be named statement on the Barbara Comstock roots video that “we are all Christians” … obvious pandering to the authoritarians parading as the faithful, but I wonder how conservative Jews and Muslims (who are all on board with the morality police-state) feel about that statement.
Webb saying “we” when he means to say “they”
and by preaching hate: they mock their very own religion, but they don’t see it.. how ironic.
Thanks peterr ref link
I am a Catholic in Baptist territory (and I was born here). And I am careful not to let anyone know. But obviously most of my dear friends are Baptist. But I love them dearly. And I think they like me.
After pounding religion into his kids all their lives, my father at age 78 has started reading books by Shelby Spong and other eye openers and is passing them onto me. He was shocked when I told him I had read Spong ten or 12 years ago.
Aiee, checking in from our vaca hotel in Santiago Chile — still no verdict… give us back the truth, already! Tnx for the updates and the excellent live-blogging, FDL.
((FDL)) (((Jane)))
Looking at Jim Webb on “Hardball”. I am in awe.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 45
depends on how tolerant they are, insanity is the way I see it
Reterr, thanks for this post. Opining, as I have for years, against faith-based initiatives, I’ve always wondered why it isn’t easy for taxpayers to sue over their money being used for religious purposes. Your discussion of “standing” answered my question as no one has before.
I only hope the thin opening that the law allows for this argument will prove to be sufficient. It just seems so wrong to me that tax dollars can be used to support anyone’s religion, no matter how well the abuse may be disguised. I have read many credible and well-documented stories of faith-based monies being used to expand and improve actual church buildings and other equally outrageous abuses.
The law has always allowed for church-sponsored organizations (Catholic and Jewish family social services, for instance) to integrate tax monies into genuinely non-religious programs. But these programs have to be open to all in the community and no prosletizing can be done. It’s simple, it worked and there was no need for the program to be expanded except to reward friends of the Bush Administration for their political support. It’s payola at its most obvious and if the SCOTUS can’t find a way to stop it, something’s really amiss.
ironyesc8psem @ 26
Here’s the source of that information — from the FFRF brief to the Supreme Court:
ironyesc8psem @ 49
Shoot, they tolerate me better here, where I live, than do some on this blog. Either way, it’s OK.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 52
;o)
Peterr,refresh my failing memory here if you can.
Didn’t 41’s “Thousand Points of Light” start this trend?
Shoot, they tolerate me better here, where I live, than do some on this blog. Either way, it’s OK.
;o)
Yea but you have to admit, like me, you are not all that careful about what you say here.
Pet Peeve (just one of many but none the less)
The “Solicitor General” is not a “General” I don’t recall who got started with that, some congreffcritter I think who kept referring to As*croft as “General.” The title is ‘Solicitor.’ The word ‘General’ modifies ’solicitor’, in a lower case ‘g’ way. Think about it this way: he is the general solicitor for the US.
While I’m at it, it’s “Egg’s McMuffin”, damnit.
Don’t even get me started on the complete mispronunciation “of “dis-section” as “die-section.” Didn’t you hear me?!?!?! I said don’t get me started!!
I’ll just go get another cup of coffee and relax now….
Raven @ 55
Shoot, they tolerate me better here, where I live, than do some on this blog. Either way, it’s OK.
;o)
Yea but you have to admit, like me, you are not all that careful about what you say here.
You got me. My hands are up.
I don’t understand why the fed govt should spend even one cent on any religious function like a prayer breakfast. I’m baffled by the argument that the courts will have to waste their time distinguishing between the government buying bagels for prayer breakfasts, and funding a federal church. They are the same, neither should be funded.
Bustednuckles @ 54
No, it goes back to Reagan, and in some respect further back than that. 41’s 1000 Points of Light stressed volunteerism and community service, highlighting people and groups as examples thereof. IIRC, many of those people and groups were religious, but I don’t think all of them were.
Peterr @ 51
Thanks…. nope no discrimition goin on there
now I remember where I heard about it: this morning on the radio, Elaine Boosler was talking about it, filling in for Stephani Miller.
none @ 58
I say *ahem* Amen brother!
From Roseanne Cash
The priest has been praying for your soul
and the doctor for your heart
does someone tell me how to live now that
we must live apart
and once we had a mother
but that’s all over now
so wish you well and let them go
just as soon as you know how
It’s strang the world we live in
where the church leads you to hell
and the lawyers get the money
for the lives they divide and sell
and the only truth believed in
is the one up on the screen
so we live our lives like fugitives
and we were born to live like queens
Once we all were daughters
now we never hear that name
and everything I could have learned
I just truned into begin
don’t send me more letters
with your ignorance and rage
and I don’t want your tight religion
not the sould you need to see
It’s strang the world we live in
where the church leads you to hell
and the lawyers get the money
for the lives they divide and sell
It’s strang the world we live in
where the church leads you to hell
and the lawyers get the money
for the lives they divide and sell
and the only truth believed in
is the one up on the screen
so we live our lives like fugitives
and we were born to live like queens
Notta Flatlander @ 56
I just quotes ‘em as I sees ‘em. The SCOTUS transcription says “General,” so perhaps you can take it up with them.
Thanks Peterr.
I’m a newbie (like you all didn’t know) so I haven’t had the chance to pis….er upset anyone.
OT: Saturday’s cuss-fest was impressive
Notta Flatlander @ 56
Oh, you were finished? I say, drop a little whiskey in that coffee and tell me more.
ironyesc8psem @ 65
I always miss the good stuff.
Thanks for the heads up.
You’ll know where to find me.
*g*
I view the Bush Administration as most discriminatory. This is not intended as a compliment.
Latest FaBlog: Fait Divers — “I’m Just Sayin’ “
Or better yet, “World without Sound”
I wish I was a Christian
and knew what to believe
I could learn a lot of rules
to put my mind at ease
I wish I had the money
to live just like a queen
with emeralds and cashmere
and every little thing
I wish the ones who love me
would never go away
but had to have my company
every single day
But who do I believe
in this world without sound?
who do I believe
once they put you in the ground?
who do I believe
when the night’s falling down?
I wish I lived in Paris
and dreamed in French each night
and had a dozen children
and raised them up just right
I wish I was John Lennon
free as a bird
and all of you who sit and stare
would hang on my every word
I wish I had the future
tied up with a string
then I would never feel the blows
the revolution brings
Who do I believe
in this world without sound?
Who do I believe
once they put you in the ground?
Who do I believe
when the night’s falling down?
I wish I was a Christian
but I cannot believe
cause no one in the Bible
craves my company
Bustednuckles @ 67
Serious Spew Alert!
You might want to set down any beverages before reading it, or cover your keyboard with a sheet of plastic.
OT: Cheney being treated with blood thinners after clot discovered in calf.
Previous discussions have focused on Cheneys mental state due to various medications. They will not release which medication he has been prescribed, but Heparin is speculated. Anyone know what further psychotic effects this our other blood thinners will have on his mental state?
Hillary and Obama? Are these the best of the best?
OT - hey TSF or OK, what was (my senator) Webb talking about on Hardball tonight? Gave the show a miss in favor of watching GMU/VCU college hoops.
Pectopah @ 72
It’s a cinch it won’t have to be brain thinners. I’m terrible. ;0)
Notta Flatlander : maybe you could solicit the general for a correction (my grammar and punctuation is atrocious)
Raven @ 55
Shoot, they tolerate me better here, where I live, than do some on this blog. Either way, it’s OK.
;o)
Yea but you have to admit, like me, you are not all that careful about what you say here.
{{{{{{{{ OKiddo }}}}}}}}
{{{{{{{{ Raven }}}}}}}}
And I, for one, like what you guys say.
There’d be no apostrophe in “Eggs McMuffin.” Dammit. Don’t get ME started!
HotFlash @ 77
;o)
Yea but you have to admit, like me, you are not all that careful about what you say here.
{{{{{{{{ OKiddo }}}}}}}}
{{{{{{{{ Raven }}}}}}}}
And I, for one, like what you guys say.
I like us too! I’ve posted song lyrics from Roseanne becuase I have such a visceral dislike for organized religion that I hesitate to even get started.
HotFlash @ 77
;o)
Yea but you have to admit, like me, you are not all that careful about what you say here.
{{{{{{{{ OKiddo }}}}}}}}
{{{{{{{{ Raven }}}}}}}}
And I, for one, like what you guys say.
Speaking for me: ;0)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 75
the mind is a terrible thing or maybe, lack there-of
OKKiddo, raven, and co.
. . . and I like you all too, but alas — The Kid is calling, and the long Libby threads pushed this post back into his story time. I’ll be back later, after he finishes reading me a story..
(Used to be, I’d read to him. Now he wants to read to me. Gotta love it!)
LoudounLib @ 74
Iran and some other stuff. This man has what it takes. ;0)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 73
Edwards is still in it.
LoudounLib @
74
Walter Reed; then Tweety asked about his ‘Nam war injuries, Webb laughed and said he’d rather talk about Iran, which he did.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 83
Yes, he does! Thanks for the info :-)
TeddySanFran @ 85
Thanks to you too! :-)
ironyesc8psem @ 81
I’m afraid there’s no denyin’
I’m just a dandelion
A fate I don’t deserve.
I’d be brave as a blizzard …
TIN MAN: I’d be gentle as a lizard …
SCARECROW: I’d be clever as a gizzard …
DOROTHY: If the Wizard is a wizard who will serve.
SCARECROW: Then I’m sure to get a brain …
TIN MAN: … a heart
DOROTHY: a home
LION: the noive!
Raven @ 88
and Toto?
[Mod Note; Zig alert. Please don’t use Quote This Comment again on this comment. Thanks.]
Pectopah @
72
I have had more than 30 blood clots pass through my legs in the past 12 years, getting treated with Heparin during the clot episodes, and mostly Coumadin and or Aspirin as well as Lovenox post-clot. While there are no psychotic effects from these medications, the increased blood flow if not properly regulated can put someone at risk for a stroke which can put stress on a person.
In short, the medications are not the danger, the state of mind issues of constantly being under threat of a stroke will increase stress which will of course cause irritability, depression, and other psychotic effects, but it is not the medication’s fault per se.
!
and Toto?
Pick on somebody your own size you big bully!
Thanks Raven, now I have a certain tune running around in my head. Grrrr.
Time to feed the kidz: yorkie (22 lbs) an a silky (14lbs) They’d give ya a run for your $ mr lion
Gnome de Plume @ 92
I’ll fight ya with one hand behind my back
I’ll fight ya standin on one foot
arrrrrrrrrr
Umm, okay.
Boo, no KO
Raven @ 96
Boo indeed…guess I’ll stick with the college hoops!
LoudounLib @ 97
i had it on picture in picture already! Go GM!
The Big Bang explains everything:
http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gm....._bang.html
ouiski @ 78
Did I actually put the hated extraneous apostrophe in there? O M G
/hanging head in shame/
I support our troops in Iraq radically. Bring them home. Now.
There is ONE thing that’s entirely appropriate about Cheney’s likely treatment - Coumadin is also known as Warfarin, also known as rat poison.
I am rather upset with my party, the Democrats. I don’t see much cooperation with the wishes expressed by the voters last November. What does it take Demos? Bring our soldiers home from Iraq. My God. What’s with you people?
Give the Palestinians a homeland.
I want the ‘twins’, Chelsea, Lieberman’s son and all the DLC member’s son’s and daughters suited up and on their way to Iraq.
No shit man. Voters wanted a change. We get Senator Reid tiptoeing around the senate floor like a child in the night.
I said it before, but I’ll repeat it: Senator Reid likes playing the role of senate minority leader. Less responsibility, and it’s always easier b