
The Supreme Court of the United States heard arguments today regarding an issue of standing — whether or not the plaintiffs in the case could actually bring it before the federal bench. These sorts of arguments occur with frequency as an effort to cut a case off at the knees before it can even get started. But it was the subject matter of this particular argument today that made it more than the usual procedural wrangle. This case involves an issue of separation of church and state, and whether or not American taxpayers have standing to challenge the Bush Administration's growing list of faith-based initiatives expenditures.
All of this goes back to a 1968 case, Flast v. Cohen, and a long-held Warren Court precedent regarding the standing for citizens — any citizens — to challenge these types of issues, a decision that the Bush Administration has concluded needs to be weakened, if not discarded outright.
From the NYTimes:
The real question by the end of the argument was whether a majority would be content simply to scale back a Warren court precedent that allows taxpayers to challenge the use of public money for religious purposes or whether the court would disavow the precedent altogether and keep such suits out of federal court.
Solicitor General Paul D. Clement revealed his hand slowly, bringing his argument to a pinpoint landing at the precise close of a three-minute rebuttal. If the justices could not see their way to applying the precedent narrowly, Mr. Clement said, the court should simply overrule it. “If something has to go in this area,” he said, “I think it’s an easy choice.”
Under either option the administration advocated, the court would reject a suit that the federal appeals court in Chicago reinstated last year, a challenge to conferences that Bush administration officials have held to advise religious groups on how to apply for federal grants as part of the effort to bolster the role of such groups in social service programs.
The plaintiff is the Freedom From Religion Foundation Inc. of Madison, Wis., which advocates strict separation of church and state. In a complaint filed initially in 2004, the organization argued that officials who convened and addressed the conferences used congressionally appropriated money in a way that “violated the fundamental principle of the separation of church and state.”
Under the ordinary doctrine of “standing,” which defines who may bring a suit, people who object to a government policy but who cannot claim a concrete injury from that policy have no right to sue. But in a 1968 decision, the court carved out an exception for religion cases. The case, Flast v. Cohen, gave taxpayers standing to challenge federal laws that authorized expenditures for purposes alleged to violate the First Amendment prohibition against the “establishment” of religion.
The administration position in the case argued on Wednesday, Hein v. Freedom From Religion Foundation Inc., No. 06-157, is that the Flast decision should be understood to include two limitations. First, Mr. Clement said, taxpayers should be limited to challenging Congressional statutes, not executive branch programs like that in this suit. Second, the solicitor general argued, taxpayers should be able to challenge only spending outside the government, not internal spending like that cited by the Freedom From Religion Foundation.
The WaPo and the AP have more on the arguments. This is going to be an interesting decision to watch for when the opinions are released this term, as it pits the religious conservative and libertarian conservative principles in direct opposition to one another, and puts the justices on the spot with regard to prior court precedents versus political expediency arguments. (A big open question on the way to arguments, again, that may or may not result in the chipping away of Roe v. Wade, among may other precedential decisions.) I'll be keeping an eye on this one, and wanted to give everyone a heads up about it as well.
One final note: if you haven't seen Oyez.org before, I wanted to bring it to everyone's attention. They have a number of the arguments before the Supreme Court in listening format. You can find a particular case of interest and, if they have the arguments in their database, you can listen to them — the back and forth between the attorneys and the justices as it moves forward. It is fascinating stuff, and a wonderful glimpse behind the rarified curtain of the Court. If you have never participated in an appellate argument, or have not been privy to watching one (and you can often do so as a member of the public, just FYI), this is a treat. (Maybe it's my law nerdiness showing, but I truly find this sort of thing fascinating.)
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Fitz! FDL!
Give truth back.
Evening kids. I know this is a wonkfest expedition into the legal weeds, but I find this absolutely fascinating. (I’m such a nerd. *G*)
FDL = Truth Porn
Nerds ‘R Us
I missed you all!
Ok, what is happening in the court house???????
Of course the wingnuts want to shove their religiosity down our throats with protection from the Supreme Clowns. Disgusting!
Ah, yes, I forgot, the position of the Bush Administration is that the executive branch does not work at the behest of the people of this country, but exists outside of every possible means that the constitution created for them to be held accountable.
By all means, allow citizens to challenge the constitutionality of Congressional action in the court system, so long as the president has a free hand to do as he pleases!
*sigh* won’t someone PLEASE impeach already? It’s all we’ve got… and they keep shouting “I DARE YOU” inches from our noses.
Another 20,000 hits last hour. Whoa, dude…
CHS- I will have to check out that site- one of our commenters had an invited brief/ opinion??? filed? for a recent SC case- sorry I can’t remember the legal terminology.
OT this thread but EPU’d from the last on the Libby jury:
Pay no attention to jury questions, requests for dictionaries, or even mid-deliberation demeanor. It can mean something, or not, but seldom what you guess it is.
The failure to look at Libby and demeanor will mean something when they come in with a verdict, but not before.
Relax every one. I have waited for something like 100 juries (98% civil)and trust me, nothing means anything till they come back with a verdict.
bdu at 8 — Yes, I thought Mr. Clement’s arguments were quite the wave of the red cape, myself.
Christy –
Speaking for myself, I absolutely LOVE your so-called nerdy wonkfests. But then I was always the kid in school who wanted to understand MORE, not LESS.
If anybody finds it truly too “nerdy,” let he or she scroll on to something lighter. But having this detail here is important, IMO. It’s so rare to find a place where someone can explain for all the non-legal types what goes on at the heart of our court system.
It’s far better to HAVE the option to understand (and ignore it if one chooses) than to WANT to understand but have no way of having it explained. IMO.
See? Is that a good argument? Would I have made a half-way decent lawyer? LOL!!!
Mrs. K8 at 13 — Thank you, dear — and awfully good to see you. :) How are you feeling these days?
Christy –
A broader issue may deserve consideration: what methods are available for overturning Executive Orders?
For more information about faith-based initiatives, please read this Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F…..initiative
Damn, Christy. Reading FDL is like singing crystal. Can’t. Leave.
Thank you for putting this up, Christy. The plaintiff is a group based here in Madison. (http://ffrf.org/)I admire them immensely for their dedication to constitutional principles. They have faced down enormous ridicule and scorn over the years.
Christy, thanks for the Oyez link! That is seriously cool.
Hi, Mrs. K8!
HotFlash at 16 — Ooooh, I love that book. That’s my favorite McCaffrey book. :)
wow. christy, many thanks for the Oyez.org link… a new link for me.
in case you haven’t noticed, i love listening to this kind of thing – anything spoken that was meant to be heard (on the otherhand, if it was written and meant to be read, then i prefer to read).
any suggestions on where to start… or should i just browse and see what i find?
Gee what a surprise! The Administration is arguing that even if taxpayers have standing to challenge statutes, they have no standing to challenge Orders of the Unitary Executive.
Is that because our taxes aren’t used to pay for the activities of the Unitary Executive?
I will observe that the Faith Based Initiative is yet another instance of BushCo money-laundering scheme. The result is, as usual, tax dollars to cronies.
Nefarious Leslie at 18 — Just be forewarned — it is lawyer crack. Once you start, you won’t be able to stop yourself. *g*
This Wikipedia article might answer my question posed in my 2:37 pm comment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_order
litigatormom @ 21
I just realized the answer to my own question.
How could I have forgotten?
Christy, Jane, Marcy, Pach, Swopa, and all of you (especially whoever is keeping the servers running) – thank you for your incredible devotion to bringing us the truth.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 19
Yeah, mine too. A great comfort to us failed singers.
I am by no means a lawyer (hell, I have no higher degree at all), I’m just thinking through the logic here…
What are the legal differences between a Congressionally-initiated program, funded by acts of Congress and a program initiated by the Executive that requires Congressional funding to continue?
Does the fact of requiring Congress to fund the program still give citizens standing to be heard under the Govt’s logic here?
LOL, Christy – the Libby trial is already like crack, so what’s one more addiction, right? It’s not like I actually need to finish my grad program. *g*
Stephen Parrish, I think this may be the article you are looking for.
Thanks Christy.
probably not a smart question here but ianal etc.
Shouldn’t these religious folks who are unconstitutionally seeking our treasure have to pay all costs incurred by the system for this ridiculous waste of time?
If taxpayers don’t have standing, who does?
Doesn’t the Constitution make it clear that ‘We the People’ are the government?
And WTF do they think the First Amendment is about, when it says ’shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof’? These guys may be violating it through the back door, but they’re still violating it.
[mumble, pitchfork, mumble, torch, mumble]
Thank you so much, Christy, for this post and for the link to Oyez.
This issue of course is bound up in the whole re-aristocratization of the colonies.
In the place of the sovereign people we have the sovereign president.
In the place of the ducal fiefdoms, we have CEOs.
In the place of the people’s court, we have HRH George 43’s court.
Eroding the wall between church and state serves a nonreligious purpose to the aristocracy. The tyranny of the church used to work when the tyranny of force would not. Do it (or don’t do it) because God says so.
Or: I am your lord because God made me so. Disturbing the natural order is an insult to God
In the movie A Man For All Seasons, Thomas More laughs at the idea he could be in mortal danger for expressing his convictions. “This isn’t Spain,” he tells the friend who warns him. “This is England!”
We used to think (smugly?) we were special. We were free. It couldn’t happen here. This is America!
But things are changing. If the Supreme Court rules in favor of this establishment of religion, why should we not believe the Enlightenment has entered a New Dark Age, and right here in the land of the free?
Christy –
It’s great to be here! Car still in shop, will be for weeks — rental costs are killing us.
BTW — aha! You’re a lawyer! If a guy violates state law and has no insurance and gets a ticket for reckless driving when he broadsides you, can the person who was hit take this jerk to small claims court to try to recover the hundreds of dollars (at least) for a rental? Maybe it’s covered by state law and varies, but if that’s the case could you suggest how we can find that out without hiring a lawyer, which we have no money whatsoever for?
Other than that, my sister — the snooty-with-no-good-reason one — is visiting tomorrow and Saturday. We are trying to make up for three years of (my) lousy housekeeping in the space of one week. It’s killing us, but at least the house will look better than it did two weeks ago. LOL!! Sis sets my teeth on edge. Must remember to breathe.
Thanks for asking! If you don’t see me, that’s where I’ve been and my sister and her husband will be occupying me until the end of the weekend. But I love you all, am grateful for all your work, and read every front page post even when I can’t get to the comment section.
And I’m so sorry that we have no money to contribute. Just want to say that, as I don’t want you or Jane to think I’m ignoring the site’s needs, not at all. I’m just not able to do anything about it, and am not sure when I’ll be able to. But rest assured that when our fortunes change, I’ll be here with wallet open. Much much love to you and all the FDL crew.
joe conason up on hardball
jeffreyw @
35
He’s making the rounds today. Was on CSpan this morning.
More please.
bonkers @ 4
Hardcore.
I’ve looked at this Flast v. Cohen stuff before. And just re-read it. Tax payers are basically powerless against the exec. branch.
(EPU’d) I friggin hate this jury. I’m sorry, I know they are probably doing a nice thorough job, but I am beginning to think they are either idiots or people without a life who are overly enjoying their 15 minutes.
I was able to put up with the speed of deliberations until that comment about them “grinning from ear to ear, giggling, having the time of their lives.” Screw that. Take it seriously, and get it friggin done.
And Walton ?? If he feels that way about the dictionary, he oughta sequester them until they are done. A) Who doesnt have a dictionary at home ?!? Does he think curiosity wont kill that cat ?!? B) They LAUGHED IN HIS COURTOOM. They have had ALL this time. If they are behaving jovially and giggling at this point, perhaps they need to be locked in a hotel, away from fun & family, until they get this very serious task completed.
I’d have told them, “No, you cant leave early tomorrow to go to your PTA meeting. In fact, as of tomorrow at 5:00 you will be sequestered until a verdict is reached.” BOOM – done at noon tomorrow.
Andy McCarthy has a rational Libby post, with actual detail, at the Corner:
http://corner.nationalreview.c…..BiZWM5M2E=
We need another “Tea Party”!
bdu @ 28
Congress can de-fund programs created by executive order. Or Congress can pass a statute that makes the executive order illegal. Of course, the Preznit can veto such statutes, and then Congress would have to override.
Someone with more direct standing can always sue to challenge an executive order. For example, in the Youngstown Steel case, the steel company challenged Truman’s executive order nationalizing the company. It had standing, as it was directly and adversely affected by the order.
Where the only “adverse effect” of an executive order is the expenditure of tax payer dollars, the government is saying that a general sense aggrievement over the whittling away of the establishment clause is not enough of an impact to create standing. (By contrast,in cases where government funds are being used to fund religious displays, or require school prayer, etc., it would be much harder for the bovernment to make this argument since people are directly affected.)
I have always wondered why religious groups are so eager for the government to promote their various religious agendas. I guess it’s never occurred to them that they’re creating the precedent for their own future persecution. Because what goes around, comes around.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 3
This could be some pretty important wonking. I don’t like the notion of weakening this precedent, either in the particular case or in its broader implications. It makes sense to me that “concrete injury” is a difficult argument to make where religious bias is concerned, and I’m willing to accept that a more generalized concept of injury should be applied when defining standing.
Oye Como Va – Santana
Leslie — a big warm hello right back atcha, with a hug attached!
LindaR — I love your comments here. And A Man for All Seasons has once again become prominent in my list of fave movies. It is topical AGAIN, sadly — and that’s so scary. If these fucks had their fascist way, they’d try to make sure TCM wouldn’t replay this film (and many others) which reminds viewers of how much this administration has moved us towards the realm of totalitarianism.
I have always believed that the Jesuit-trained and very Catholic Fitz has a special place in his heart for St. Thomas More, the patron saint of attorneys.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 41
Indeed
Clement.
Isn’t he the guy who was arguing in front of the Court that the US never tortures, even a little bit, just the day before the Abu Ghraib pics hit the press?
Pssst – I know that Jurors are following the rules and not checking FDL, but I’ve never had a shot at jury tampering before, so I feel I have to go for it now:
Oxford American Dictionary
ITZF!
HotFlash @
30
I thought that concept fell into desuetude well before the last Stuart acceded to the English throne.
punaise @ 44
I’ve been humming that ever since I opened this thread.
Mary4 @ 47
LOL!!!! Too funny.
Any time the Supremes deal with standing it’s an important case. Just like the personal jurisdiction battles of the 80s, a standing case now isn’t confined to the issue before the Court (i.e., traditional concepts v. substantial contacts). Moreover, with the cases about wiretaps, etc., standing was a major issue in the lower courts so the decision here might tell us something about the court’s (really Kennedy’s) view on how broadly it will confer standing.
schuster up on hardballz
Mrs. K8 @ 45
That’s funny, “A Man for All Seasons” was the money answer on Jeopardy last night. Hadn’t thought about that movie since …
punaise @ 44
You slay me. Must retire, mi lindo!
Christy Hardin Smith @
19
My favorite is The White Dragon.
Mrs. K8, thanks. I’ve been doing a lot of research lately around the American and French Revolutions. The history of the great wrench from aristocracy to democracy is precious and crucial, I think, to “keeping it” as Benjamin Franklin suggested would be difficult to do.
I often link George W. Bush rhetorically with King George because it’s all so obvious. But the society we are devolving into now resembles ancien regime of France more than the Parliament-moderated monarchy of England. In France, the nobility and the Church held all the wealth and paid no taxes, much like we are heading toward.
This taxation w/out representation business. Perhaps we need a clash of conservative v. progressive lawyers on this issue. Do we have enough progressive attorneys to make a fight out of it?
Stephen Parrish, CPA @
49
Well, I often think we are still using it here (Canada). For all the representation we get most times it feels like rotating elected dictatorships. You see, the folks who do the governing really like it.
Attaturk @ 40
It’s an interesting post. But it seems to me, if the jury is heading toward being hung, they wouldn’t be laughing and grinning. There would be more visible tension.
Linda –
These obscenely rich fucks would do well to remember what eventually happened to Louis and Marie, no?
And that at any point in the trajectory leading to revolution the nobility could have averted their own demise if they had simply acted even a teensy bit like the “Christians” they said they were.
Hi Mrs K8.
THIS could have been a good Clinton jury – it may all depend on what the meaning of “is” is after all.
This is a case to watch. If taxpayer’s can’t object, then you are left with the Executive blurring the separation of powers by becoming the ultimate arbiter of the Constitution’s legal limits for spending within the Exec branch — now that doesn’t seem right. OTOH, devils advocate, it would be a pain to have nutcases trying to interfere with everyspending decision. Still, they limit that pretty severely for Congressional statutes and there’s no reason why the Exec shouldn’t have the same limits.
It becomes a meaningless distinction to have the branch that writes the laws subject to the legal interpretaions of the judicial branch, but to release the branch that enforces the laws from the constraints of the legal interpretations of the judicial branch.
Thanks, Christy, there goes the idea I was playing with for my post tomorrow, but that’s OK. I’ll just wait until the decision is handed down. That’ll be next Tuesday, right?
;)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 38
With the exception, carved out in the opinion IIRC, of allegations of “establishment of religion.” Flast might say “you can’t sue the govt because you don’t want them spending your tax money on Iraq,” but it allows for challenges based on the establishment clause. What BushCo is asking for is that this exception be overturned.
First this – Libby jury.
Second this – Sup Ct’s Hein case.
Shopgirlove @ 55
bueno pa’ goza!
Mary4 @ 61
Especially when there’s plenty of evidence that that branch as it’s constituted today “enforces” the law whenever and however it damned well pleases (or not) and rewrites any law passed with its own very special “signing statements.”
Attaturk @
40
Thanks for that, Attaturk, that is very very sane.
Lindy @ 56
Put me down for Dragonsinger. But Crystalsinger is a very close second.
Mrs. K8 — yep.
Have you seen Marie Antoinette yet? People seem to either love it or hate it. I fall in the love it category.
I think Sofia Coppola makes a statement about the current aristocracy/celebrity fetish, and how the people fetishized (is that a word) are as much victims as anyone else.
Of course, they get to eat all the good food, wear all the great clothes, and — until the head goes — live outside of constant fear over whether the bills will get paid.
…if the jury gets Dick, would that make them a hung jury?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01289.html
Shopgirl and Mrs.K8… 2nd interview completed, and I thought it went well.
Now I just have to wait to see if they want me. I think they do, but we’ll see. I’ll know by tuesday.
more waiting… sound familiar?
twolf1 @
70
Well…
Linda –
No, haven’t seen it. Actually I haven’t been to the movie theaters since before the accident way back in the nineties. But I’ll keep my eyes peeled for rental possibilities. Your saying it’s good is a recommendation I take to heart.
And, yes, “fetishize” is a perfectly good word. :-)
OT
Kwiatkowski on Iran and Iraq and Bush
“Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski (ret.), a veteran of the Pentagon with firsthand experience of the administration’s cherry-picking of intelligence, reveals why Bush thinks he can win a war with Iran, why few politicians are serious about withdrawal and why ‘when they call Iraq a success, they mean it…’”
Kwiatkowski
Okay, who’s tight with a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee?
Anybody?
Of course if the Democrats would just show some courage and cut off tax derived spending for Iraq, I wouldn’t give a damn, with respect to this issue, as regards Flast v. Cohen.
Rayne at 76 — What are you looking for exactly? (I’m sensing a gleam in your eye, btw…)
randiego @ 71
Oh no, more pins and needles!
But that’s a GOOD THING. (In both instances, IMO…)
Thanks for letting us know! And if you need a reference from us FirePups, give a shout-out!
That’d be a hoot, no?
“Sir/Ma’am, I have some references, if you’re interested. Several hundred of my good friends at the Lake….”
Bye all — I want to go get some dirt for my garden before it gets cold and rainy again!
LindaR @ 33
You are correct and you make an excellent point – it is one I encourage. The lack of knowledge of history is a huge problem. Religion has always aligned itself with money and power. Money and power in right wing government finds kinship with religion.
This symbiotic relationship is sometimes exposed and easy to see, but most people are not aware of it b/c they do not know history. Churches again today are especially keen on the blatent financial benefit they receive by promoting a right wing agenda. Faith Based Initiatives.
Many have already crossed the line – handing out tricky bulletins promoting republican candidates to their flocks. These groups are so far removed from the teachings of Christ that they are more like the devil, but that is another point.
Christy, was my earlier question about small claims court out of bounds? If so, I apologize.
I’d just like to say for the record that Mr. ReddHedd is stealing frosting off my piece of cake. The nerve!
mmmmmmmm…. cake…..
mmmmm…frosting…
tell him to please remove his hands from your cake, Christy.
I’ll tell these folks to take their hands off of our Constitution.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 78
Um, yup…that handout from McNulty’s office I referred to last week maybe a Rosetta Stone. NEED that document. Pretty please.
Secondly, also need to find out how close the same committee is to issuing subpoenas, or if they are going to let the House counterpart run with the ball in regards to USA’s. I think the truth’s emergence depends entirely on the right questions being asked, and perhaps not in open session but behind closed doors.
What a mess. I may drop you a note later this evening on this, have to finish cooking dinner. [sigh] Gets so hard to save the world around dinner time, doesn’t it?
Peterr @ 68
Dragonsinger? I must go have a look. Also a sucker for U K Lequin’s winged cats.
Mmmmm…Beer.
– Homer Simpson
Christy Hardin Smith @ 82
Objection!
Your honor, please instruct the jury to disregard the above statement, as it presumes facts not in evidence and calls for speculation (”the nerve!”) as to motive.
He could be simply conducting a taste test, to make sure that Mrs. ReddHedd is not poisoned in some nefarious plot to disable FDL.
WHOA.
Serious lightning and thunder. Strike less than a mile away.
Weird, after the snowstorm this morning.
Mrs. K8, there’s always someone here who can answer your questions, from recipes, to music, to backaches (Trex last night) to small claims questions.
Heck, it wouldn’t surprise me if someone could tell me if micro-sanding the bottom of my surfboard would make it faster.
Hydrodynamics, anyone?
Rayne @ 89
I hope you aren’t plugged into the wall there! Yikes
Thanks for keeping an eye open about this for everybody, Christy. FDL is surely the go-to place in the entire US about how we might “let America be America again.”
MrsK8, take it easy. A clean house is the last refuge of a scoundrel! I only do dishes every 3 days, and I’m not kidding.
Rayne @
90
May be time to shut down the ‘puter for a bit?
Hotflash –
It’s part of the “Harper Hall” trilogy, filling in some back story stuff on the main Dragons of Pern novels.
Mrs. K8 at 82 — Oh, sorry – -I missed it somehow when I got a call from my dad. Your insurance company may be required to reimburse you for those costs and/or you may be able to hire a plaintiff’s attorney who specializes in auto accidents to take care of this on a contingent fee basis (meaning you don’t pay them anything up front — they take their cut out of the settlement from insurance, etc.). Every state is different, though, on how they handle this sort of thing and, I’m sorry, I have no idea how Arizona would do this. The best thing to do is to ask friends who have dealt with this situation who they used if they had an attorney — I’ve found word of mouth is the best way to find a good attorney, truly, because you find out who a lot of the bad ones are and you can eliminate them. *g* Or check in the phone book for someone who does auto accident/insurance work.
Sorry I’m not more help on that — but it’s really tough to tell you anything useful not knowing what AZ’s insurance laws require. But someone practicing in your area would have a pretty good idea on what they could or could not do for you. Hope this helps a little…
Hot off the press:
Panel Slams Treatment of Guard, Reserves
By LOLITA C. BALDOR, Associated Press Writer
2:02 PM PST, March 1, 2007
WASHINGTON — The National Guard and Reserves don’t get enough money or equipment and are left out of important planning for national emergencies, an independent panel concluded Thursday, long after the Iraq war and Hurricane Katrina exposed serious stresses on the services.
The report from the Commission on the National Guard and Reserves compounds earlier criticism of the Bush administration’s response to the devastating hurricane that struck the Gulf Coast in August 2005. The administration also is still struggling to better manage the reserves nearly four years into the Iraq war.
The 151-page report found a significant lack of communication between reserve officials and other military leaders, the Homeland Security Department and U.S. Northern Command, which is responsible for the military’s defense of the U.S. homeland.
[snip]
Members of Congress, meanwhile, criticized the commission for not going far enough in its recommendations., Sens. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., and Kit Bond, R-Mo., said they will continue to push for their legislation, which gives the Guard chief budget authority and the power to buy equipment, and also makes that person a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
[They want the NG chief to have four stars too. But will they fix what’s already broken?]
We had thunder and lightening early afternoon in a snowsquall. Then settled down to do some serious snowwing. We have inches of the stuff, haven’t been out so don’t know how much, lots of wind byt so far not the ice and freezig rain that we are supposed to have overnight. If Marcy’s flying, tomorrow am w/b better. I crockpotted, so now I only have to make a salad and nuke a veg.
Christy, EW, LHP, Anyone – I caught LHP’s questions regarding the FISA filing at the bottom of the last thread (starting to understand this EPU’d thing) and I also wonder whats up with that? Any further info? Also, Christy, thanks for the Oyez site, I’ve never seen that before; pretty interesting resource.
Peterr @ 94
I can’t define Pern, but I know it when I see it.
HotFlash @ 97
ooo cool!
My nerves are shot. I broke out the ultra-light beer to calm myself down. I honestly don’t know how the Libbys are coping with this. (I know I shouldn’t feel sorry for him but this is killing me; I can’t imagine being Mrs. Libby right now.)
Oh, and Peterr — I’d love your take on this case, so please don’t feel like you can’t hit it, too. :)
punaise @ 99
707!
I edited my original comment: it should be the “Harper’s Hall” trilogy, in the Dragons of Pern series of novels.
Mrs K8,
As Ann Richards said, “I did not want my tombstone to read ‘She kept a really clean house.’ “
(AP) Just hours after floating the idea of cutting $20 billion from President Bush’s $142 billion request for military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan next year, Senate Budget Committee Chairman Kent Conrad was overruled by fellow Democrats on Thursday.
Which fellow Democrats overruled Conrad?
OK Tired Fed I checked Pacer and the only thing I see on the docket from today is a motion for and extension of time to complete the classifiaction review of the transcritps and evidence used at trial.
On which docket did you see a FISA related motion? I chekced both the Libby docket and the ABC News docket, no FISA.
Hey folks.
Whew. We had a few visitors there back at the courthouse–the courtroom surge, huh?
Here’s Plame House schedule. The only flights I could get out tomorrow were early. So I took one (my shrink, Pach, told me to get thee to mr. emptywheel, though in somewhat smuttier terms…). Just as he was giving me my shrinking, we got caught in the middle of the Libby papparazi (sp). Which was pretty funny, bc really, Libby probably doesn’t need to hear Pach encouraging me smuttily and he’s really got more to worry about than I do.
So Jane’s on her own tomorrow, for a day that, Reggie believes, won’t include a verdict. I’ve got my flight back on Sunday night. I know I’m going to be in a much more pleasant mood next week. God knows the jury is having fun, why can’t we???
Thanks, Christy. And for the citations and just telling us about the case.
Hi Elliott:
You had asked what Rush had said regarding Bob Woodruff. I finally found the article. It was posted on DKos yesterday, Feb. 28
“To Limbaugh and Back – TBI & Bob Woodruff’s Journey (Updated)”
Rush and his caller asked: Why doesn’t the liberal media ever talk about the soilders that get injured, and make a great recovery? Why just their journalists?
bmaz @ 99
I can’t find a FISA Motion on either of the dockets PAt has in DC.
Further under FISA, the only time you should see the motion is when the investigatin is over and a decision has been made to unseal. I am confused by Tired Fed’s comment
Mrs.K8,
I went to Law school at ASU. I believe contingency fees are allowed.
thanks christie for this post……..i didn’t know there was anything in the courts about this, thank you…….
i have seen the gradual merging of church and state in my own community……i was a life-long methodist, until four years ago when my church read the statement of a republican senator using his minutes on the floor to promote his religious beliefs as an ‘atta boy’ thing, they read it DURING SERVICES one sunday…it was one of the most appalling things i had ever heard, his manifesto and them reading it in church…couldn’t believe it was happening, but it was…they tied it into being patriotic….and it all of a sudden became ‘cool’ to be religious because of george w. bush…..it made me ill…….and caused me to quit attending church…..in any form……for now…….and heard the same kinds of things from other people in other religions, sounded like a plague to me…..
glad to say that some from the church have been writing me to come back, (i always enlivened the bible studies–reminded them that lying and gossiping was equal to ‘lasciviousness’ (you know what i mean) in the bible…really, brought up good stuff…….want me to come and listen to the new minister with progressive views…but that still makes me uncomfortable, because there is a reason for separation of church and state and ought to be enforced the same as any other law…….and they participated in letting it happen, liked it in fact.
i know people from all walks of life and religion growing up and now where i live, even rastafarians, and there is a place for everyone, but mixing religion and government is a highly toxic cocktail.
hard to condense all of the thoughts i have on this just wanted to say
thank you, didn’t know it was in the courts, glad it is…….
separation of church and state gives everyone room to manouver…is a necessary thing in my view. gives room for each to play a part.
(and i lean toward tibetan buddhist if i had to claim one)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 106
Here’s one:
http://www1.whdh.com/news/arti…..l/BO44800/
fwiw– it was presented at an ‘informal meeting’
Thanks emptywheel and be safe!
I sat through a SC hearing once many years ago. It was the Physician Assisted Suicide case back in 1997. Mr. Rev., also a Rev. was the founder of Compassion in Dying in WA and the case made it all the way up the ladder. Not a helpful decision, but an amazing experience. Lawrence Tribe made the case for our side. We had breakfast with him the day before.
This was a big case in terms of those wanting to witness it. The “not dead yet” people were there in droves. We had “passes” to get in but still had to be there in the wee hours to line up and go through the security.
Cardinal Law waltzed in when he wanted to, the bailiff had a spot for him in his “pew” whenever he wanted it. He sat in front of me and reeked of an incense-like smell.
Like other trials, there were no electronic devices allowed and no reactions or facial expressions allowed. Thomas, as usual was silent. I remember the red velvet drapery, the tall pillars, the musty feeling of it all. Hallowed halls indeed.
Emptywheel – thanks for coming back on Sunday. We need you!!! I don’t think you will miss anything tomorrow.
Rayne @ 86
What handout from McNulty? Did he give it to only the Committee? Or was it given to the press? If given out to the press all you have to do is call the DOJ press office and request a copy, they will probably fax to you then and there.
If given to the committee, was it given with any restrictions?
I am not recognizing what you are referring to, so pardon my many questions
punaise @
100
You’re a Pernicious wit, aren’t you?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 106
From AP:
WASHINGTON (AP) — Just hours after floating the idea of cutting $20 billion from President Bush’s $142 billion request for military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan next year, Senate Budget Committee Chairman Kent Conrad was overruled by fellow Democrats Thursday.
‘’It’s nothing that any of us are considering,’’ Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., told reporters.
Scooter Flippy
n 1. an intelligent, highly educated ideologically-driven neocon senior administration official who sold his integrity (and soul) for memberhip in the project for a new american century. “There’s enough oil for everone but just in case there is not, we’ll lay claim to it right now, WMD or no WMD”
emptywheel @ 108
I also discussed the matter with mr. emptywheel, and he is on board with the treatment program.
There an event with Marcy Wheeler in NYC on Saturday, March 10.
Here’s the information:
YearlyKos Convention Fundraiser: New York
Posted on February 20, 2007 by Raven
YEARLYKOS CONVENTION FUNDRAISER
Saturday, March 10th – 6-9pm
The Tank @ C:U – 279 Church Street
Register here!
Join activists, organizers and on-lookers, as we drink, laugh and carouse liberally to celebrate the DailyKos community and prepare for the 2007 YearlyKos Convention.
With special guests Marcy Wheeler (”Emptywheel”), author of “Anatomy of Deceit” and Libby Trial blogger, the comedians of Laughing Liberally, the sweet eats of Eating Liberally, fellow Kossacks, bloggers & rabble-rousers.
Hosted by Living Liberally with Vaster Books, Young People For The American Way & the Kossack community of New York City.
Free food, cheap drinks, great gifts, lively conversation & progressive camaraderie!
Saturday, March 10th – 6-9pm
The Tank @ C:U – 279 Church Street
btw Franklin & White, just below Canal
A,C,E,J,M,N,Q,R,W,Z,6 to Canal; 1 to Franklin
$50 – YearlyKos Suggested Donation
$100 – YearlyKos Fundraiser Host
Register here.
All guests will receive gift bags. Hosts will receive recognition in invitations and complimentary copies of “Anatomy of Deceit”.
http://www.yearlykosconvention.org/node/62
angie # 114
Why does that not surprise me coming as it does from Harry “I set it up with Bill Frist to pass the Military Commissions Act” Reid? I think one of the most underreported stories since the November elections is the ongoing influence of the DINOs, especially in the Senate.
pat @ 109
Oh, thank you for that! Thank you so much.
You know, people I thought were intelligent actually listen to him. I don’t know how they can stomach it. *shiver* yuk
no Pern-a-mint bases in Iraq!
maneuver, i knew that………..
Pach, you devil….
angie @ 114
Thanks! I saw that. Who are the others? I’m lazy. I am disgusted with many in my party as regards Iraq. ;0)
LHP@111 – Thanks. I think it must just be the Mot. to Extend Time. It simply makes no sense for there to be any substantive FISA filing on that docket or that would appear on PACER. Red herring I think. Again thanks. One further thing, to any who have seen my snarky dismissals of the clothing based prognosticators, I may well have to retract my position and dine on crow after today’s events.
punaise @ 127
Wink, wink; nudge, nudge . . .
Say no more, say no more!
Pachacutec @ 121
film at 11:00?
I am no longer content with accountability for just Republicans on Iraq. I want accountability for those in my party as well.
Jim Clausen@112 – I think I went to law school with you are you still here?
Peterr @ 130
The Devil Bears Prodding
Hugh @ 124– I know!
OK Kiddo– it was an ‘informal meeting’– no other names I can find, but:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/…..refer=home
Hugh @ 123
He has got to go.
bmaz @ 134
1982-1984 left for the great offer from Oldsmobile.
Is it fair to speculate that most ‘rank and file’ Dems (Dem voters) want out of Iraq?
Jim Clausen, are you “the” Jim Clausen with the football playing boys?
jim Clausen@139 – Yep. Bill Moore here. How the hell you doing?
looseheadprop @ 117
The handout was referred to in a report on NPR the morning after McNulty testified in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee; Ari Shapiro was the reporter. The article was an audio report downloadable from NPR.org. In the article, Shapiro notes that McNulty testifies that most of the dismissals were for performance reasons, but that while McNulty testified, a staffer/aide/assistant from DOJ passed out handouts that included emails from members of Congress asking USAG-DOJ to do something about USA’s. It’s this handout we want because the emails will show the political nature of the dismissals and which Congressional members affected which dismissals.
There may be more than member of Congress named in that handout, too.
Looking for link to NPR, will post shortly.
Elliott @ 137
DINOs? Is that the same thing as DLCs?
As to Reid? I can do without this guy.
But could we beat the tortfeasors from UA?
I’m here everyday. We’ll talk
What cruel irony that they are laughing, exhibiting jovial commraderie etc… as I have sat here all friggin day whittling down my fingernails in Chicago, working at a place that shall not be named being a very lonely cheerleader for Team Fitzgerald. Although I thank heaven for FDL it is at once a blessing and a self imposed curse to be tuned in. I will be so very disappointed if they do not come forward with their GUILTY verdict tomorrow. Then (oh Happy Day) it will not matter if I am the lonely cheerleader (although I will continue to be silently, sigh..) regardless. GO TEAM FITZ!!!!! And thank you FDL (she wrote while calling up unfinished report to work on through the night…..)
Christy –
Thanks!
We’re so screwed on the word-of-mouth thing, though.
We moved here to take care of a terminally ill relative – my mother-in-law – and were so busy with that there was no time to “make friends.”
After she died, my accident happened very soon thereafter, and I’ve been pretty much completely house-bound all these years since. We really HAVE no friends, but not for lack of trying whenever possible. It’s hard when Mr. K8 gets so exhausted from working overtime and then running all errands, doing all serious physical housework, etc. etc. He collapses when there are a couple hours to spare.
Joined the local parish, started to make friends, until we realized they were all fascists in sheeps’ clothing. Haven’t been back since.
Seemed to have a good friend in a neighbor ’til I discovered what a fundy she was. That in itself wouldn’t have been disqualifying, but when she accused me of being a “terrorist sympathizer” because I criticized Ariel Sharon’s policies in her presence — well, that was the limit.
We find our next door neighbors sympatico — but they don’t speak English and we don’t speak Spanish. So we have lots of good-natured pantomime and friendly waves going on. Other than that we have a lot of gun nuts on the block, and Fox fans, and people up to their eyeballs in debt buying toys they don’t need with money they don’t have because they’re so into the latest celebrity fads, etc. etc. and talk about their new clothes and stuff non-stop. I don’t mean to sound judgemental about them all (except the racists REALLY cross the line – will never be friends of ours), but none of these folks are people I would trust for their “judicious” opinions, even though they can be quite nice and warm in social interactions.
Oops, sorry for rambling on about it. We just aren’t plugged in to any “network” here, and don’t quite know how to get around that to hear some word of mouth stuff.
Hmmm. Maybe I should ask my doctors!?! They’re the folks I actually talk to face to face most often. Maybe that’s not a bad idea…
Sorry, guys, if this sounds self-pitying, but every once in a blue moon I guess I need to really wail out loud.
Rayne @ 142
But who were they being handed out to? The best/easiest way to get docs is from a press office. FOIA requests can take forever. ANd getting them on hte down low can have unfortunate legal consequences
Jim Clausen @ 111
Thank you very much!
bmaz @ 130
The thing I think is MOST signifigant is that they would not make eye contat with the defense.
QUestion to Jane and PAch, did they make eye contact with anyone on the prosecution team?
Pachacutec @ 122
Good on you, Pach! I feel quite sure mr. emptywheel didn’t need much persuasion, but I’m sure all of us are happy that Marcy will be returning on Sunday refreshed and revitalized, if not rested!
Now, what are you doing to pamper yourself over the weekend, hmmm?
Mrs. K8 – …people up to their eyeballs in debt buying toys they don’t need with money they don’t have because they’re so into the latest celebrity fads, etc. etc. and talk about their new clothes and stuff non-stop.
wow, that’s a very concise encapsulation of much of what ails this country. wail said.
Mrs. K8- there is some site I found when I was trying find a lawyer for my mother re: 1994 earthquake. Had lawyer links but also info about background. I’m not sure how helpful it would be. I’ll try to find it for you, but I am fading fast this eve. A good wail is sometimes good therapy.
Mrs. K8 @147, I’ve been there. We lived in the mountains for about ten years. I knew a lot of people, but very very few with whom I could agree about matters political. Had it not been for the net, I am not sure what would have become of me.
OT again. While I am glad that Dana Priest broke the Walter Reed story, I just wanted to point out the following:
1) Walter Reed is located not near but in the nation’s capital.
2) It is located only a few miles from the White House, the Congress, and the offices of the media.
3) This story could have been written anytime from late 2004 onwards as American casualties mounted.
My guess is that this falls under the category of an open secret. The situation was known but nothing was done about it because no one cared. Only when it hit the headlines and a public disgusted with the war and the hypocrisy of its leaders read about conditions at Walter Reed did the nation’s media and leaders realize that they were shocked, shocked I tell you, that it was going on.
The Walter Reed scandal happened because the media are lazy and slow to investigate anything and the politicians are fecklessness personified.
Mrs K8 -
Do I need to call Greenpeace? *s*
Dang Mrs. K8,That sux.
If it was me , I’d pack it in and go somewhere a lot less “Fundie”.
My folks have been in Yuma for a month and say they really like it. They don’t get much more Liberal Democrat than those two, ‘cept maybe me. *g*
Oklahoma kiddo @ 142
I think that’s Democrats In Name Only
yeah, I’m starting to think Reid is part of the problem.
Mrs. K8 @ 147
I shouldn’t talk because at heart I’m a hermit (except that my ‘work’ etc… compells me to ‘network’) but I’m wondering if your area has a coffeehouse-musical venue- hang out place where Tim Lahaye might not ‘feel at home?’
TP @ 145
tis a cruel irony indeed
if Wells was shaking his head and yawning while the jury requested an early dismissal wouldn’t that fall under the ‘how not to win friends and influence people’ category?
When is the fucking Congress going to understand they can not be against the war while they continue to fund it. 70% of the country want us out of Iraq, what the hell is it going to take?
Mrs. K8 you can refine this by city. Beware of the guys with the big billboards. Also, from my experience, you can at least get a feel for a place by phoning various firms, to see how you are treated. Phone calls returned, high pressure sales, etc. Try this site,
here
LHP@150 – Well, again, I have had an unusually poor day of analytical success (although the big flub was based on the erroneous info that the jury, attys and Judge were meeting in chambers, which I did not like the sound of at all), but I have had mixed experience with the eye contact test. Sometimes that is an accurate indicator and some juries just dont’t want to betray their determination until the verdict is formally announced, regardless of which party it favors. Better than nothing if you have to speculate and, of course, we must.
About the wars– how much more money should they be allowed to reap from the dead and their deadly policies? I mean, really. They have failed so far and the Congress is just gonna throw more money at it in the guise of “supporting the troops?”
The same troops that they lied into war and sent ill-equipped in oh so many ways and are still short shrifting upon their return.
puh-leeze. enough.
I wonder if the Iraqis and Afghans are spending 2 billion a week to fight their occupiers.
(no– they are desperately poor!)
2 billion a week (iirc) and almost zero progress wrt reconstruction, clean water, electricity, security or healthcare or peace and democracy. Just more dead, wounded and broken folks with a surplus of fear and despair.
Valley Girl @ 163
a legal firm here has had the back page of the yellow pages for years with an ad making spectacular claims. a lawyer I know chatting about his job mentioned to me how utterly incompetent the main guy at that firm is/was.
hey bmaz- are you lawyering in az?
Not that I could see. They were all about each other and keying in on Walton.
Some of the statistics flying across the television reflect a conflicting message, iirc. They say (roughly 70 percent)folks don’t want the surge but don’t want congress to defund aka not support the troops. I have a feeling this rediculous framing is what allows for
inactioncontinued death destruction and waste of treasure by both houses.dmac –
Boy do I EVER know your sentiments in your comment at 112. Really. Seriously.
I was getting up and walking out in the middle of sermons in my Catholic church. Then realized if that was the way every Sunday was going to go, it was better for me to stay home.
You see, in graduate school I studied the Weimar Republic and the onset of the Third Reich. I knew exactly how it went down in the churches and their relationship with Hitler. The suckers were oh so thrilled that Hitler abolished the previously legal abortion rights of women. That he thought homosexuality was degenerate. Etc. It’s a sucker’s game. And to see the same thing happen here — accepting all sorts of evil for the sake of the denunciation of “sexual sin” has made it impossible for me to be part of the church community here.
I can fight on the political front, or I can fight on the church front, but not both at the same time. Church should be a place where I feel safe (sanctuary!), but that certainly ain’t the case now. Am willing to roll up my metaphorical sleeves and slug it out in the church community (all christian-like, lol – ) once the fascist hands have been pried loose from the wheel of state. Whenever THAT happens.
make that the ‘back cover of the phone book!’ not back ‘page’ of the yellow pages………
Mabel’s-
yep- those are the types I would steer clear of, for sure. Lawyer mills.
hi mrs. k8
see my post at 113
people have polarized, into things, into ‘religion’, into themselves……
but the rest of us are alive and well……and still kickin’…….and gatherin’ at the lake……..
d
looseheadprop @ 148
Incoming, should be there already.
I hear you. You’ve given me a pointer I needed, going to press office. Much better than poking around when time is of the essence — and I appreciate that greatly.
Valley Girl@167 – No more than I have to any more, trial practice grinds on you after a while, but I guess the honest answer is yes.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 171
And then there are the ones who advertise by pasting a refigerator magnet to the front cover of the yellow pages.
Mrs. K8
I am an insurance coverage attorney. If the driver was uninsured, your insurance company might have to pay for your rental as part of the damages you would have recovered from the other driver had he been insured.
I am not in Arizona but most small claims courts allow you to pursue similar claims to what you are considering.
Also, if you want an attorney, you might try contacting the local bar association for a referral.
Is it confirmed that the jury expressed that they would not be likely to reach a verdict tomorrow? If this is the case why on earth would they be so happy? Could they possibly not have any idea how desperately people are waiting for this???
Just asking
bmaz- I was just asking, wondering if you had read Mrs. K8’s plight. She is one of the very very oldest firepups in blog time (no ref to actual age). Anyway, I was trying to respond to her request as to how to find a lawyer re: her auto accident stuff. I thought perhaps you might have some good ideas. I found one link lawyers.com. Don’t want to put you on the spot. More to say Mrs. K8 is a special firepup. Not a drive-by asking for free legal advice. ;) ;)
Unless the jury was embarrassed over their casual attire in the courtroom or punaise’s cousin is in the jury, I don’t understand their giddy demeanor.
Previous post at #178 Maybe all the lawyers/people in the know have logged off and/or I am pathetically perseverating. Maybe it’s time to have that cigarette. I am beginning to even annoy myself.
Rayne @ 174
Rayne, got the email. Can you share with me, who or what entity you are investigating for?
I used write investigation plans for living, if I understood what you were trying to accomplish, maybe I would give you beter answers. I just am not really unsderstanding the questions too well
new thread atop
TP @ 178
Sorry, the jurors asked if they could be dismissed early (2 PM) tomorrow to go to parent teacher confernces in hte DC schools.
Clearly they don’t expect to have a verdict before then
bmaz,
for security reasons email firedoglake for my email with my permision. I’ve been at the Lake for a long time. Great to hear from you. Claus
i used to keep tictacs handy, whenever something was happening that i wanted to scream, i ate a tictac………my former husband told someone one day what i was doing, it became a joke among the members–dayna’s poppin a tic tac!!!!!!! small country church, only 64 members……came from large church…..liked the country atmosphere, loved the people with all of my heart, didn’t like the politics mixed in…..they didn’t know they were being manipulated, and didn’t like me telling them they were, so i left. now they know, and are writing me to come back, that is a good thing, that they know it was a manipulation. one person at a time to wake up, that is all that anyone can want…….i had to wake up at one time, and i did, i hope the same for others, one at a time.
VG@179 – can you repost the info regarding her case? I know it must be upstairs somewhere because I saw the Jim Clausen bit, but I was away for awile beating my head against a wall after the last court bit, so I missed the nuts and bolts of the story. Be happy to help if I can.
TP@181 – No, they did not indicate that. Peterr said, and I fully agree, that they were probably just making contingency plans in case they were not done. So it is possible they will return a verdict tomorrow, but they sure seem to have no fear of going on forever.
Mrs. K8, just a reminder on using contingency attorneys. Although their primary compensation is received from settlement payments, they typically require that you pay for actual costs, regardless of verdict. I was charged $1600 in costs by a contingency attorney for a case that lasted for 2 years. If you decide to go the contingency route, be sure to ask questions up front about the out-of-pocket costs.
Secondly, and not to further depress you, but most people who don’t carry insurance are people who can’t afford insurance. As the old saying goes, you can’t get blood out of a stone. If the person who hit you truly doesn’t have any money there will be no reimbursement, or else it will be something like wage garnishment, which could take a very long time in which to recoup your losses.
My sympathies. Been there, done that. It’s no fun to feel so helpless. Good luck.
emptywheel @ 67
Even though McCarthy can write some things that are disappointing, he is generally very, very smart. As a rule, I’m not interested in what the other posters over at NRO have to say. But McCarthy, even when I disagree with him (which is common) usually makes a cogent, if obviously biased, argument.
Jim Clausen@187 – yep, I had already had that concern myself, thats why I didn’t go further earlier.
bmaz- Mrs. K8’s first post on the subject was here.
If you read, you will see that she is trying to pursue the case w/o lawyer, because of no $$. Some following commenters mentioned “on contingency”. Let me know if this makes sense. xxoo
Hi firepups. I rarely delurk, read as often as I can, love it here more than I can say.
I hope you will forgive my O/T post, but you are a vibrant, activist community and I haven’t seen this posted here.
It’s not only a petition, (Click the Take Action link) but a tool to use to spread the word to local media, our Congresscritters and our fellow ‘mericans to alert them of the coming next war… in Iran.
The only way we (We The People) can be fooled again is if we are kept in the dark by Corporate Press. Please help VoteVets.org and Wes Clark get the word out, put the pressure on, and counter the silence on this most crucial issue!! And please pass it on far and wide! Thanks, jen
STOP IRAN WAR!
dmac @ 113
I hope you go and check out the new minister. Was his appointment a reaction against the earlier “Gawd ‘n B*sh” push? If the new guy is being overtly political, you can always high-tail it again. If, on the other hand, he is preaching such things as caring for the sick, poor and lost,; You have yourself a winner!
bmaz @ 190
If you two want to get in touch via email, I can be a trusted intermediary. Trusted, yes. intermediary? probably. FDL is so swamped with emails right now that “permission” info this way is not going to happen. Hang on, I have to deal with something…. but let me know what you want. p.s. I have been at FDL for ages.
Sparkles the Iguana @ 71
Why would they issue their verdict on “Dump Day”? I’m sure they learned at least one lesson from the myrmidons in the Administration!
Yikes!
Sorry, Pups for not responding sooner. We just had two at-home mini-emergencies at once. And I have to go now to attend to them.
I glanced through and saw many comments and suggestions for how we could/should proceed.
Thank you, each one of you, for your ideas and morale-boosting sentiments. This place can’t be beat! I love the Lake!
I’m going to save this page to check out the links and ideas in detail, especially after the snooty sister has departed late in the weekend. And if I have more questions for you patient folks, I hope you won’t mind if I’m not shy in asking.
Many thanks to whoever it was who set up the FDL Annex at Gabbly. Just checked it out today for the first time, and I’m so impressed and excited about having immediate chat with Pups from the Lake.
Wish I had time to respond individually to you kind people, but crises call! See ya — a.s.a.p. — and to quote a phrase from my hippy-dippy youth, keep the faith!
Christy, thank you for telling us all about oyez.com!
Several years ago, “Signals” catalog offered a compilation of tapes called “If It Please the Court.” The tapes were of famous arguments before the Supreme Court, one of which was Roe v. Wade. I’m not a lawyer, but I wanted to listen to it. I didn’t buy it at the time.
Roe v. Wade is one of the cases archived on oyez.com; I can listen to it! Dr. Sarah Weddington is one of my heroes. I owe her my reproductive freedom.
Again, thank you, when this is all over, now I can hear it for myself.
-S
Is the Supreme Court open to the public? (Both the building and the actual courtroom) We are visiting DC in June and would like to visit the SC if possible. What will we see?????
I like how the FDL links to a report by “the NYT.” As if that is supposed to represent a solid news source. The writer was Linda Greenhouse! You remember Linda Greenhouse from her speech at Harvard:
http://www.timeswatch.org/arti…..42938.aspx
That’s who the Times employs to supply hard reporting on the Supreme Court of the United States? Linda Greenhouse, of the “Greenhouse Effect” fame?
http://www.opinionjournal.com/…..=110008190
Did I understand it correctly before; the FDL crowd was upset that Victoria Toensing’s writing of an OP-ED for WaPo was a conflict, yet Linda Greenhouse is an unbiased hard news reporter for the NYT?
Sheeeeeesh!
Valley Girl – I have some thoughts for Mrs. K8, but don’t really want to engage in that in a public comment section. One of us needs to get the other’s email so we can contact each other and relay the info (also maybe the intermediary bit discussed previously). Suggestions?
Thanks, Christy, for the excellent summation. Our own little town was brought to its faux religious kness a couple of years ago by Freedom From Religion. Those folks are gooooodd…
Is it my imagination, or is the argument that “separation” only applies to acts of the legislature and not executive orders…well, specious?…Hollow?…disingenuous? It appears to my unlawyerly eye, that the Solicitor General was trying to accomplish a couple of things…first, they were taking their “imperial presidency” case out for a test drive by saying if the “unitary executive” does it, then it can’t possibly be wrong (or challenged for that matter.) and, they were trying desperately to give the conservatives a fig leaf behind which they could hide their fawning over their wonder boy….
okay, okay, okay….I’m a frustrated lawyer wannabe….
and I’m proud of it too, dammit……
Clueless@198 = Yes. If you wish to watch actual sessions, however, space is limited. They have a website easily Googled (sorry I am link challenged) check it out for their schedule for when you are there and details on attending. Cool building, steps up to it are awesome.
HotFlash @
119
See? This is what I mean…The republican machine will come in in ‘08 and say that the democrats have not ended the war, they’ve had two years to do it, and now they will promise to end it. And Americans will swallow it.
I can see the purpose of limiting ’standing’ for individuals in lower courts, but shouldn’t anyone and everyone have standing in the Supreme Court on Constitutional issues?
If things your government does can be said to NOT have a direct affect on your life, then they can pretty well do whatever they want overseas (for example) and you would never be able to challenge them.
Ever notice how they keep cutting back on taxes due from the poor and then saying all tax cuts should go to the Rich because they’re the people who really pay taxes? Well, consider this, if they’re the only ones paying taxes then they’re the only ones who have any standing in court on issues related to government spending — including Iraq & Iran war spending. Lovely, eh?
I’d love to hear Scalia try to explain who has standing in the Supreme Court when it’s not written in the Constitution and he ONLY reads the text and never interprets what a word means — it’s just one letter after another.
BTW, I find it sad that a judge has to tell the jury they can’t use a dictionary. If no word can be honestly understood to mean what the dictionary says it means, then the Law loses it’s meaning and Lawyers and politicians can redefine the language to mean anything a barnyard pig would want it to mean.
Or from Alice in Wonderland, (paraphrasing) ‘A word means what I say it means.’
Let Bushies eat cake icing!
cake icing: noun, same thing as dung except prettier; synonym for turd-blossom
My favorite all time argument on oyez.org is the first amendment case of Cohen v. California, 403 U.S. 15 (1971). Justice Harlan: “This case may seem at first blush too inconsequential to find its way into our books, but the issue it presents is of no small constitutional significance….On April 26, 1968, the defendant was observed in the Los Angeles County Courthouse in the corridor outside of division 20 of the municipal court wearing a jacket bearing the words ‘F[***] the Draft’ which were plainly visible. There were women and children present in the corridor. The defendant was arrested. The defendant testified that he wore the jacket knowing that the words were on the jacket as a means of informing the public of the depth of his feelings against the Vietnam War and the draft.”
The best part of this oral argument is at the start where Chief Justice Warren Burger tells the Defendant’s attorney that the Court is familiar with the case and that the attorney does not need to “dwell on the facts” in his presentation to the Justices. You can almost see the gears turning in the lawyer’s head as he thinks to himself, “How many times will I ever get to throw the F-word around in front of the United States Supreme Court?” So, he gives them a brief, but fully descriptive replay of the relevant facts, including the unedited content of the jacket. Greatness.
Wow. For whatever reason, this type of thinking does it for me. I think I was an attorney in another life…
This is what makes my mind sit up and pay attention…and why I keep returning to FDL.
Thanks.
God has spoken. All hail God.
The legislative branch must pass the laws that collect money from all U.S. taxpayers, and unquestioningly hand it over to the executive branch which will spend it any way it wants according to the dictates of God.
All hail God. Er, all hail the Christian God. Ahem, all hail the evangelical, orthodox, hard-core rightwing God. Or maybe the Catholic God. Ummm, or the Mormon God.
Damn, I guess we’ll just have to wait for the elections next year to find out which God we’ll all be forced to worship starting in 2009, depending on which Godly candidate steals the next election…and tells Congress and the Supreme Court to “Go F**K Yourselves”…along with all the U.S. citizens and taxpayers who might not belong to this Godly candidate’s religious denomination.
Oh well, God has spoken. All hail God.
(Is God crazy, or are just some of his followers stark-raving crazy? I guess we’ll know after the Supreme Court rules either in favor of religious tyranny and against religious freedom in America, or for religious freedom in America and against religious tyranny.)
EPU again!!!
Ms K8 – FYI I am making a donatiion to FDL in your name as soon as I submit this. I am seriously ahead of the time indicated on comments (by about 1/3 day) so I only get the earliest part of your day there and must read comments the next day here. I will make the donation identifyable by using my vintage year, that and the time should indicate sum donated in K8’s behalf.
Warnings should be posted – Serious Head Candy Involved in this Posting, Warning May Cause Addiction, Withdrawal Symptoms Severe
Magnificent Postings and Comments CHS (and everybody else too).
Do these EPU comments ever get looked at? All the best……
Arnie at 208 — They sure do get looked at — and thanks. :)
Actually, I feel the Office of Faith-Based Initiatives should be expanded.
Let’s have an Office of Faith-Based Emergency Medicine–Dick Cheney could stand forward as a testament to its effectiveness. When his pacemaker cacks out, Emergency Prayer Teams will think about him really hard while praying. No other action required.
I was going to suggest an Office of Faith-Based Law Enforcement, but the Department of Fatherland Insanity’s already got that covered.
Maybe an office of Faith-Based Economics … sorry … forgot–in the Bush White House it’s called “economic policy”.
How about a Department of Faith-Based Impeachment?
Hugh @ 155
Amen. (Sigh)
Nice post.