***BREAKING: The jury sent a note to Judge Walton at the end of the day today. I've been informed that the contents of the note will be addressed in open court at 9:30 am ET tomorrow morning, following a previously scheduled matter that was already book in for 9:00 am ET. Just wanted to give everyone a heads up. Could be as innocuous as a question about the meaning of a jury instruction, or as substantive as a verdict or a deadlock. We won't know anything further until tomorrow morning. I've got this from two separate sources at the courthouse. Hang onto your hats, kids — and see you in the morning. — CHS***
***UPDATE: I'm told the note from the jury was a question of some sort, but nothing about the type or subject of the question. Just FYI. We'll find out in the morning.***
The jury has left the courthouse for the day. No verdict as yet. So, we'll resume the verdict watch in the morning as they resume deliberations. Until then, something to contemplate:
Dan Froomkin compiled some very interesting polling results for his White House Watch column. The next time someone tells me that disgust with the Bush Administration is the by-product of some liberal plot, I'm just going to link this up:
Consider some of these findings, listed in order of how strongly those views are held. (And I'm only including those with over 55 percent support):
* 67 disapprove of the way Bush is handling Iraq.
* 67 percent oppose sending additional troops to Iraq.
* 66 percent support reducing U.S. military and financial support for the Iraqi government if the Iraqis fail to make progress toward national unity and restoring civil order.
* 64 don't think the war with Iraq was worth fighting.
* 58 percent want Congress to limit the number of troops available for duty.
* 56 percent feel the U.S. should withdraw its military forces from Iraq in order to avoid further U.S. military casualties, even if that means civil order is not restored there.
And in an somewhat related finding:
* 63 percent feel they cannot trust the Bush administration to honestly and accurately report intelligence about possible threats from other countries.
Dan Balz and Jon Cohen write about the poll in The Washington Post; Gary Langer for ABC News.
A new Gallup Poll finds that 65 percent of Americans see the British troop withdrawal announcement as a sign that things are going poorly in Iraq, rather than well — contrary to the White House spin.
Another Gallup Poll, this one on the U.S. role in the world, finds that a record 73 percent of Americans say they don't think leaders of other countries around the world have respect for Bush, and 61 percent are dissatisfied with the position of the United States in the world today.
The Gallup Poll traditionally skews conservative — and those numbers are not pleasant for the Bush Administration, now are they? So, explain to me again why, exactly, is anyone kissing the odious Joe Lieberman's rear end? Digby would like to know. And so would Taylor. And Glenn. You can add me to that list as well. Enough with the kabuki — I'd like some spine with my members of Congress, please.
And if they need more incentive to grow one — this is particularly instructive on Lieberman's method of backstabbing his "friends" once he no longer considers them immediately useful. How's that "I got you reelected to protect my Homeland Security funding in NYC" thing working for you now, Bloomie? (H/T to Woodhall Hollow for finding this one.)
Related posts:
- Teabaggers Attack, Obama’s Poll Numbers Climb
- Laura Ingraham on “This Week”: Dick Cheney “Cuts Through” on Afghanistan Because “His Numbers Are Going Up”
- Exclusive: New Poll Shows Clear Majorities Distrust Big Corporations, Favor Unions
- DADT: Gates Open to Opening Gates?
- Obama’s Numbers Driving Democrats Down
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Joe Blows!
Madness! Madness! Madness!
Give back the truth!
Christy!
I want my country back!
Good, now I can go get something else done.
Hello, Christy.
Spine? and Congress in the same sentence? The two terms are becoming mutually exclusive, especially when you bring in old Joe. Frustrating in the extreme.
FITZ!
Re Reid, Pelosi and Kabuki: the only thing that I can think of is that they are waiting for something. Maybe they are waiting for public sentiment to finally reach the zero point. If they haven’t gotten there yet, they are pretty damn close. There won’t be rioting in the streets this time around because even if there was, the networks wouldn’t cover it. The pressure has to be direct and intense or they won’t risk it.
How this for some numbers?
Dow drops 416 on global market plunge
http://www.hemscott.com/news/l…..9443994411
I wonder how Bush polls among members of the Bush family? My guess is that he doesn’t poll well since none of them will serve in his war, no matter how noble he claims the effort to be.
Do you think they could be watching this trial along with mia dead-eye dick?
If the movie casting has carried over from the last thread, Peter Boyle might would have made a good Cheney (think Young Frankenstein performance) if he had not passed away recently.
an old chestnut:
“my contempt for Joe Lieberman will never subside”
Lou – why the panic?
You’d think that Bloomberg (a Republican mainly in a business sense) would learn, as this is not the first time he has been stabbed in the back by one of his
politicalbusiness friends wrt to security funding. Bush has never come through for him either, even though he has been very careful to only say very nice supportive things about him in public.And now, et tu Lieberliar?
portia.vz @ 8
Do you think they could be watching this trial (along with dead-eye dick?)
Could give them a compass!!!
Add in Deadeyes -15 Jar* and you have some disillusioned Kool Aid drinkers.
* Depending on what time zone you are in.
JGabriel @ 2
Hope we All get the truth back this week!
portia.vz @ 8
I agree, but I think it is more mundane than that. Reid needs 60 votes in the Senate. To risk a bill going down, even via a procedural manuever–is to risk giving the administration political cover and thus delaying real directional change. Vote-coounting is very important now.
Call or fax your congresscritters today, particularly if he or she happens to be a middle-ground Republican. They must, as you suggest, feel the pressure intensely.
well, duh.
Dorgan queries the panel on Pakistan and AQ/Taliban — if you say they are the biggest risk to US– why no surge there?
Pace: How do you attack an enemy inside a country with which you are not at war?
(there’s lots to get from that answer…)
Calibrating disgust:
http://www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc……libby.gif
Did the Taliban really try to kill shooter in Afghanistan today?
The pressure has to be direct and intense or they won’t risk it.
What do we have to do, stage sit-ins in their various offices? (I’m including all the Dems in that group, even though some of them have gotten the message.) I’d rather not have to get to the pitchforks-and-torches stage, but if that’s what it takes, then that’s what we’ll have to do.
bmaz @ 12
That makes him especially qualified.
Stop the presses
Lieberman and Collins have a bill up tomorrow.
*geesh*
dab_from_CT @ 14
Pick your poison…Google News search
punaise @ 13
Christy writes:
My amazement that anyone would have ever wanted to kiss Joe Lieberman’s rear end will never subside.
tbsa @ 22
Hard to know for sure since the Bush Administration cries wolf so often.
dab_from_CT @ 14
It started in China early this morning. There were rumors that the Chinese government was going to tighten controls on China’s economy, which is moving too fast. Everyone started “taking profits,” that is, selling, before controls set in. And since our “ownership society” is really an “pwned by China society,” panic swept westward with the sunrise.
I’m not sure exactly what happened, but that’s waht I gather. Much more in the MSM.
Nina Tottenberg is reporting that the jury is now wearing jeans and sweats, rather than the business attire they wore during the trial. She said that this is being interpreted as a sign that they are not close to being ready to make a public appearance/announcement.
And Wells is pacing the hallways all day long.
Badwater @ 28
The WH is apparently backing off this belief this afternoon (saw it on CNN)
tbsa @ 22
I have my doubts, and so does one of Josh Marshall’s readers:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c…..012674.php
It’s certainly possible that it’s what the Taliban claimed, but there are also enough terrorist incidents in Afghanistan these days that it could be coincidence, as well.
Laura Bush was interviewed by Larry King last night. He asked her how Americans (nonmilitary) are sacrificing. She said that 1) it’s not like WWII sacrificing because our economy is so good, and 2) there are people who wait on the tarmac for soldiers to get off planes in Texas, and they give the soldiers hugs.
I am not kidding.
I’ve gotta ask -”What’s taking SO long?”
Guilty on all counts should have taken 3 days tops – to rationalize away a few charges mabye another day and a half – if they don’t finish tomorrow does it mean he will totally skate?
oxide @ 29
No need to panic, CNN now reporting that it was simply a “computer glitch.”
Move on, nothing to see here. Go back to your shopping.
Woodhall Hollow @ 30
Interesting. I wonder if any of the sweatshirts say GUILTY or FUCK CHENEY.
What we need is an intrepid reporter to crawl through the air conditioning ducts like Jack Bauer and position themselves right above the deliberation room.
Marcy? Swopa? Egregious?
john in california @ 34
He is going to “skate” either way. If he’s convicted he will be pardoned promptly before he ever sees on day behind bars. One has to wonder what it will take to get this pack of lying, cheating, criminals incarcerated for their crimes.
tbsa @
22
three attacks within 24 hours,
Cheney visit was surprise, mess ran out of food…
bomb coincidence according to base announcement
[watching to see if White House revises this notion]
froggermarch @ 19
Bull, that’s the gutless traditionalist approach. This might be a valid tactic when public opinion is split or nigh-against you, but the numbers just don’t bear that out.
Overwhelmingly, the public wants this war over and done with. If they put a vote up and lose it, they can pound the asshats who vote against it about the head and neck with their vote until they relent. The will of the people will amplify the blows.
Sparkles the Iguana @ 36
Well, we could take up a collection to purchase them a tin foil hat which tunes into the molar of the foreman!
I think tonight is the Frontline that focuses on bloggers, no?
OK, I just gotta say that I am still tingling over my H/T from Christy!!!!!!!
The Court received a note containing a question from the jury at the end of the day today. Judge Walton will address the note with the parties in court at approximately 9:30 a.m. Wednesday morning, following the conclusion of another matter the Court has scheduled at 9 a.m. The contents of the note will not be disclosed until the note is addressed in court and docketed sometime tomorrow morning.
I’ve updated above: ***BREAKING: The jury sent a note to Judge Walton at the end of the day today. I’ve been informed that the contents of the note will be addressed in open court at 9:30 am ET tomorrow morning, following a previously scheduled matter that was already book in for 9:00 am ET. Just wanted to give everyone a heads up. Could be as innocuous as a question about the meaning of a jury instruction, or as substantive as a verdict or a deadlock. We won’t know anything further until tomorrow morning. I’ve got this from two separate sources at the courthouse. Hang onto your hats, kids — and see you in the morning. — CHS***
I’ve been around a few juries in my time and, I’m not sure exactly why, but I like the fact that the jury is coming more casual. At a minimum, I think it signals that they are comfortable with each other, which if true, probably indicates there are no outliers.
tbsa @ 37
No one will be incarcerated for long, if at all, as long as Bush has pardon power. However, it helps expose the Republicans for what they really are and that may contribute to their ultimate demise. It’s a fair trade off.
Woodhall Hollow @
30
I can change clothes in 3-5 minutes.
tbsa @ 22
No, Cheney was never in any danger. Bagram is a large base. The Taliban knew that Cheney had been in Pakistan the day before and that consequently he might show up in Afghanistan. If he did that would mean coming through Bagram. Increased security measures at Bagram or a leak out of the Karzai government would have provided further tipoffs.
Such an attack is about making a political statement. In that, it succeeded.
john in california @ 34
Well…. ; )
A federal jury convicted former Enron chiefs Ken Lay on all counts and Jeff Skilling on most counts today, marking the climax of one of the most notorious corporate scandals in U.S. history and nearly ensuring prison time for two of Houston’s best-known executives.
The jury heard 16 weeks of testimony and arguments and made its announcement early on its sixth day of deliberations. The eight-woman, four-man panel found Lay guilty of all six counts. They convicted Skilling on 19 of the 28 counts against him.
http://www.chron.com/disp/stor…..93599.html
john in california @
34
Going into this trial, the jurors had to know that their work would be sliced and diced and gone over in public in minute detail. If I were in that position, I’d want to not only be sure that I’m right and that my fellow jurors are right, but I’d also want to be sure that every instruction on the jury forms was followed correctly. Nobody wants to look like a fool on the network evening news or the latest “breaking” report on cable. They want to get it right, and they want to be sure they got it right.
That takes time.
bdu @ 39
Precisely. Ending the war, preferably well, but mostly ending it, is what the vast majority of Americans want. This isn’t some issue that no one cares much about or about which there are serious divisions out there (like, say, abortion). Even some of the cheerleaders for this war have come to realize what an endless screwup this war has become.
To be seen trying to do anything that can really bring this war to an end will be a political plus for anyone who’s on the right side, and a dreadful liability for the ones who aren’t. Make the Republicans stand up and be counted, one way or another. And do it for something that really matters, not some namby-pamby “we told you so” resolution that doesn’t mean squat.
Here is my tin-foil hat shudder of the day: What are the chances that the jury room is not being bugged by Cheney? Is there anything he would not do?
(brought on by ew’s comments about people crawling in the ceiling and another commentor urging that someone crawl up and find out what is happening)
Well ok, I may have to take that back. Didn’t see #43 and #44 before I went all happy. Jeez.
Balrog @ 46
I can change clothes in 2-4 minutes.
CHS- is it common practice for jury to send note first saying we have a verdict?
Some days, I change my personality in 10 seconds.
NZ Expats @
52
You’re a couple threads behind for tin foil.
;)
NZ Expat @ 54
Do you have any Gemini in you?
Valley Girl @ 54
When I was on jury duty (county court), we just told the bailiff or clerk who was sent to mind us.
**BREAKING** I am going to chew my arm off.
Thanks Christy!
VG@55 – Possible, but its my experience that they simply notify the bailiff verbally that they have a verdict.
VG at 55 — Yes, it can be. Depends on what the practice of the particular judge is, but they like to have all communications with the jury in writing for purposes of the record of the case. I’m informed further that the correspondence from the jury was a question — but was not told what sort of question or what the subject was. Guess we’ll all find out together in the morning.
Sparkles @ 33
Answers to Laura:
(1) She’s insulated from the real world economy;
and
(2) She’s insulated from the real world of soldiers
(I wouldn’t be surprised if X*n*x or something similar was involved also. That’s insulating in its own way. I don’t believe that DC was what she signed up for when she married the guy.)
Cujo359 @ 58
that’s what I imagined would happen….(stomach lurches)
Sounds like the jury wanted to go home to change clothes.
I can see that we’ll be checking to see what the jurors are wearing tomorrow.
Well, I’m behind on threads but ahead in time. And it is time to head out to teach this afternoon.
Nope, no Gemini. Totally Taurus here…..I think the personality change is when the raging bull announces itself with no warning.
CHS- thanks for reply. Much appreciated.
The jury wants to know where Cheney is.
Timing is everything.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 62
A question is a much better sign than a statement, I think.
A question is less likely to signal that the jury is hung.
Also, I agree that a notification of verdict is not likely to come as a note at the end of the day that isn’t acted upon until the next day. If the note said they had a verdict, then they would have announced the verdict tonight, I think.
bdu @ 39
Well, then there’s that.
Look, I’m as frustrated as you are about the thick-headedness of the Congress, but the fact is that they are not up to be “”pounded about the head and neck ” until November 2008. By and large the Congress IS with us, but the rules of the Senate mean that we need a few more votes. That’s not to say we shouldn’t take to the streets and use every tool in the toolbox, but a noble defeat on a key vote means real lives for real soldiers over there.
That may seem gutless, but it is a sincere opinion that bringing troops home as soon as possible is the most important objective and one that is best advanced with 60 Senators and a majority of members of the House voting that way.
The most common questions from juries tend to deal with questions about what the jury instructions mean — at least in my experiene, anyway. Any of the other legal beagles out there have thoughts on that?
Sparkles the Iguana @ 33
Anyone from the Bush family giving those hugs? Probably not. It’s something for little people to do when they can’t find jobs in this great economy.
From today’s WaPo politix chat:
Huh? Whatever he’s smoking, I want some.
CHS- not a legal beagle- but has the one part of a count re: conversation with Judy Miller been completely taken out of consideration? Sorry, I didn’t follow this part of the live stuff with any comprehension.
p.s. just wondering if this could be basis of question.
P J Evans @ 23
Code Pink DC has a project to put people at congressional offices, in hearings, etc. as much as possible, though I don’t know how far it’s progressed yet. Not disrupting anything (yet), just being there wearing highly visible pink antiwar shirts, kind of a “we are everywhere” effect. I’m sure they could use more volunteers, if anyone is free sometimes during the day and is so inclined.
smapdi @
60
*passes the Heinz 57*
Badwater @ 73
Plus the little people are kinda dirty and all, just sayin’.
bmaz @
12
Why not? Adds to the realism.
Good grief- I know I’m not sleeping tonight. My stomach is a flip-flopping faster than Mitt Romney in a room full of Christofacists. I can’t imagine what this must be like for team Fitz. Could somebody please ask these jurors to send out any notes early enough that they don’t leave us hanging like this?
Kind of a painful read, but well worth it imho.
much more here:
http://www.tompaine.com/articl…..empire.php
Scarborough: Only Gore can beat Giuliani, McCain in defense debate
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17361718/
My favorite jury question, from The Verdict, script by David Mamet:
The Jury Box. The Jurors seated, the FOREMAN standing.
FOREMAN
Your Honor, we have agreed to hold
for the Plaintiff… but on the size
of the award, are we bound…
JUDGE
You are not bound by anything, other
than your good judgment, based on
the evidence.
ANGLE
Galvin, totally defeated. Nods his head sadly, as if
commiserating philosophically, with himself. Mickey looks at
him in grief, with sympathy.
FOREMAN (V.O.)
Are we permitted to award an amount
greater than the amount the Plaintiff
asked for?
Galvin slowly raises his head, turns and looks at the Jury,
Mickey begins to smile.
JUDGE
Yes. You are.
While you guys are waiting for a verdict, can you line up someone to go undercover at
Ashcroft’s pizza party?
Maybe have someone ask Ayres if Abramoff had pizza in the skybox when they were chit chatting about the classified Mariana’s report or if anyone bought Ashcroft some pizza after the basketball games where deep sixing the report was going to come up?
I’m glad to hear the ethics watchdog thought that people should think “how it looks” (although IMO, next to arguing in favor of torture, most things look good). Still, it’s a tribute to her impact that the ethics memo included a Sue Ellen rider, in fine print: As long as you are just sleeping with, or buying a million dollar vacation home with, ex-AG Ashcroft, you’re good to go.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 82
He’s right, Wes Clark can’t touch these guys…and Ghouliani has loads of foreign policy experience in dealing with the squeegee men in NYC.
Is there a link to the official jury instructions?
Mary!!! Have you been following the details of the Libby trial? If so, Q for U.
TJ @ 85
Do you have time to teh google?- that would be a good thing to read.
portia.vz @
8
People in my area are upset. “What’s taking them so long? Pull the funding, make it illegal, impeach him, something. This HAS to stop. That’s why we elected Democrats.” etc. etc.
Leader Pelosi, Reid, waiting isn’t making it any better or easier.
Completely OT, but OK Kiddoo, you ever meet Wes Studi at some clan gathering?
Valley Girl @ 88
I tried and didn’t come up with them. I hoped someone here might know.
A little tidbit from Time magazine to tide you over ’til morning:
http://www.time.com/time/natio…..07,00.html
froggermarch @ 71
I’ve lived in the DC area all my life, so I’m generally sympathetic to the view that they have some idea what they’re doing. I understand that the Senate can’t get anything passed that doesn’t have 60 votes, which is why repealing the war resolution, etc. isn’t progressing. But there’s one thing I don’t understand, which is why they aren’t moving forward with attaching conditions restricting funding. If they’re immune to pressure from us because they don’t face re-election until ‘08, why aren’t they immune from pressure from the “undercutting the troops” crowd, too?
Seems like the best way to overcome the 60 vote barrier is to use something like the funding bill, where the Republicans need it to pass.
Similarly with the Murtha plan — why not put it forward and make the GOP to vote to strip out the requirements for training and deployment limits if they don’t like them, to show who really supports the troops?
TJ- hmmm… well then I prob. can’t find either… sigh
froggermarch @ 70
2008 is right around the corner, as we’re seeing in the presidential races. Already, the more “moderate” pubs are having to angle their votes to not anger their constituents. In modern electoral politics, the next race is always just a heartbeat away, and early negative memes can grab constituents and not let go.
I don’t see the logic here, how does a noble defeat on a key vote harm our position any more than not taking that vote to the floor at all? How does it cost any more lives than backroom strategery? How does it prevent us from bringing it up again once we have a LIEberman-proof majority?
Yes, we’re all on the same side here, I think, but it’s frustrating to see our representatives in congress consistently take the road well-traveled, while the less-traveled path appears to not only be clear of debris, but also has the possibility of being a shortcut, or at the very least take no longer than the other routes.
I refuse to search about for arguments as to why they might be doing this, as I find no reason in the fundamentals.
VG @ 87 – big stuff, not details. And I may have missed some of the big stuff (or inadvertently remembered a detail just bc it was so weird *g*)
Twisted Martini @ 85
And McCain is an unwavering supporter of the military debacle that’s destroying our armed forces. I’m sure the American people will want more of that in ‘08.
You know the media focuses on the one day where the stock market plunges 400 points instead of all of the other days when the market goes up.
-Laura Bush
Christy@72 – Yep. Usually questions are jury instruction related or a request for readback of testimony. Have had them ask about about visual aids at trial, i.e. overheads, easel markups etc., that were not submitted as exhibits, so that is possible. Have also had them ask what the potential penalties for the charges were, but I would think they would have done that earlier if that were the issue.
How is it that Obama is unqualified as a four year senator and Slick Mitt the Dancer Romney who was part time Governor of Mass. for four years is qualified?
-GSD
bdu–
Who the hell said not to take a vote? From what I’ve read, this is about “days, not weeks.” If it goes longer than that, I’m all for your position.
I would, however prefer to WIN the vote, so if a few extra days does the trick I’m all for it. And to troops in Iraq, Novemeber 2008 is NOT just around the corner. We have to get them home NOW. Not four or 14 failed votes from now.
bmaz at 99 — Yup, true — read back of testimony also popular. And given the particulars on testimony in this case, it may be illuminating if that is what they ask for: Whose testimony? On what subject? That can be very useful in terms of divining what the jury’s been discussing. (And then again, sometimes, not so much. *g* I hate waiting for a jury.)
Rumor has it Ashcroft rewrote his famous song for the pizza party.
Let the Pepperoni Soar.
-GSD
Question: Why does everybody think Giuliani is a strong candidate because of his bonafides on national security? What great experience or performance does he have? He was mayor of a city that got attacked. Thats it. How had Rudy prepared his great city for that? Well, lets see…he located his emergency command center for the entire city, and the critical communications equipment, in the biggest terrorist target in the United States, the WTC. That was brilliant and worked out very well didn’t it? What great people did he surround himself with? Kerik; a mobbed up illiterate jerk who was running hookers out of his and Rudy’s emergency hotel room. How did Rudy protect the responders? He didn’t. Told them all it was safe when he KNEW that was a lie. Now they are dying. Rudy’s national security credentials are less than Obama’s, which, admittedly, are somewhat thin.
Oh, this is bad. I won’t have internets access tomorrow between 8-10 a.m.
OK, Libby owes me 48 bucks for the parking ticket I just got because I was distracted waiting for his verdict and moved my car from a two-hour zone across the street to a once-a-month street-sweeping zone. I’m sure the parking authorites will understand…
CHS- you’re back! Q from above- has the Miller part of the charges been totally taken off the table? I didn’t follow this part.
Hilzoy, on liberating Iraq, very much worth reading. Send to Congresscritters and editors.
1,440 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Hardin Smith and the Firepup Patriots:
I’m afraid the jury’s hung…with my track record for prognostication I hope I hold true to form but I really think Fitz allowed himself to get screwed, blued and tattooed on jury selection. How the hell didn’t we end up with at least 4-5 black jurors??!!
Oh well…time to start the pressure on our current elected officials, what can they do to us if we force the war into everyone’s living room and, with the stock market finally headin’ to Switzerland with what’s left of the babyboom’s retirement, the Democrats hafta realize that it’s now or never.
Come on folks, time to get lined up with Move On and any other local group that is willing to take direct action ta get folks into the streets and onto the laps of every elected Democrat in Congress.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION GOD IS WATCHIN’ AND SHE’S REALLY PISSED!!
Speaking of Ashcroft:
via Balkinization
Perhaps the most interesting personal fact to come out in the book is how deeply Yoo despises John Ashcroft for dropping him like a hot potato when the torture memo leaked.
VG at 107 — The Miller stuff was taken out of the Obstruction charge entirely. (Sorry, was heating up dinner for the fam there for a bit…)
bmaz @ 104
Keep repeating to everyone you know: Rudy has no experience beyond the municipal level.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 110
thx- I guess that puts to rest my idea that the jury Q could be about that.
froggermarch:
I guess we’re talking about two different things… I just keep hearing about how dems aren’t backing the Murtha approach, how Reid isn’t going to let the resolutions come to a vote unless his count says he can win.
This approach to the problem could easily lead us into 2008 with no progress.
If, as you say, they are willing to charge forward in a week with something substantial and well-gamed like the Murtha approach, regardless of whether they have the 60 they need, then I’m with you, a couple days is a small price to pay to WIN the vote.
This approach strikes me as out of character for the Senate, though. I hope you’re right.
VG — It is most likely a query on a particular aspect of a jury instruction, or as bmaz says, a read-back request for some partiular testimony so they can be certain they are all remembering it correctly. Unfortunately, “most likely” doesn’t mean “for sure,” and so we wait until tomorrow.
So there was this Paul Newman movie, The Verdict. He was an alcoholic lawyer who took a case that reformed him. In the movie, the climactic moment was when the Jury asked a question – something like “Can we award more damages than the plaintiff asked for?”
Until tomorrow morning, I’m going to pretend that the jury is going to ask, “Can we add some perjury charges of our own?” and “Can we include Vice President Cheney in our verdict?”
Crazy Horse @ 90
No I have never met this GIANT. But I am in awe of his acting talent. I would love to meet this man. ;0)
Christy or any of the lawyers here:
Could the question be something like “What do we do if we’ve reached a verdict on all but one of the charges – and we’re hung up on just that one?”
If it could be, then I’m hoping that’s the question…
Mickey at 116 — Mwahahaha.
punaise @ 106
If nothing else works, blame Clinton.
Forgive me for bringing up the absurdity, but why is Martha Stewart’s slam dunk conviction SO different from Libby’s case? I fail to see why those on the right wing side of this summarily dismiss the Libby case as having no merit. Talk about a witch hunt culminating in a successful prosecution…and yet I see the Libby case as more of the same….obstruction and lying. What am I missing?
Sparkles the Iguana @
36
Well they can dress down now that Mrs. Tight-Panties Art Expert is out of the room!
BREAKING NEWS – Contents of Libby jury note have been revealed:
Thank you,
The Jury”
GSD – My guess is the pizza party is a front for selling time shares at the Domino’s village. ANd I heard the song re-work was to give recognition to DOJ’s recent works: Leave Civilians Sore.
Meanwhile, back in EYErack, Odierno is making sure everyone not at the pizza party feels safe – by rousting their friends and family off to the New Improved Abu Ghraib.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..mi_ea/iraq
Well, there you go. If a 19 yo who has just lost a buddy to an IED and been pumped up on “all Iraqi males between 15 and 50 are enemies” and isn’t really sure who the “government” of Iraq includes and doesn’t speak the language “feels” there’s a problem – Odierno has it covered.
And why wouldn’t they feel safer, after having people break into their homes and disappear siblings and cousins?
I feel an Ashcroft/Odierno dua, Feelings
Mickey@116 and Christy@119 – I had totally forgotten this until reading Mickey’s bit from the Verdict, but i once had a jury ask if they could also serve as a grand jury to make a charge against an innocent dupe i had pointed the finger at in trial to deflect blame from my guilty client!
Fresh thread, all — and twolf1, that’s freaking hilarious.
bookwoman @ 121
Libby can’t cook and is one terrible dresser…
twolf1 @ 122
707!
bookwoman @ 121
You’re only missing the fact that they’re not trying to reason forward from the evidence to the truth, they’re trying to reason backward from their preferred outcome to whatever BS they have to assert to get there.
Stupid question: The court is required to tell us what the question is, correct? They’re not allowed to torture us by not releasing what the note from the jury says, right? (Like they did with the dismissed juror)
Christy Hardin Smith @
44
Okay…a question…which means that they are still deliberating one of the charges. I suspect it might be “Can we go back and review charges that we’ve already decided based upon our discussions subsequently?” [I.E. If Libby Lied on one or more counts does that have a chance of impugning his honesty on other counts on the same facts?].
I’m also interested in the other matter that the Court needs to deal with. That sounds as if Walton is going to say something about behavior that the jury need not know about but he considers necessary to make a statement about to both the lawyers and public.
Could he be about to nail Toensing for her efforts (as a practicing lawyer before the Washington DC Courts) to interfere with a fair trial?
pai at 130 — They will have to put the question on the record somehow — most judges do it in open court, at least in my experience. But there is a possibility of them doing it on the record but during a sidebar. Since the note that I got on this reads: “Judge Walton will address the note with the parties in court at approximately 9:30 a.m. Wednesday morning, following the conclusion of another matter the Court has scheduled at 9 a.m. The contents of the note will not be disclosed until the note is addressed in court and docketed sometime tomorrow morning.” – I think it is likely that this will be addressed in open court. But it does not say so expressly, so I can’t say that for certain.
Thanks Christy.
froggermarch @
71
Do you remember looseheadprop’s brilliant essay on the Bright Shiny Object Defense? It was back in mid-December, but it is still a classic to be referred to, often. I think that the War is Bush & Cheney’s primary Bright Shiny Object.
Look! See! Over here! War! Doesn’t that make you mad??? Run! Run like mad at our bright shiny object!
They’re playing us like a matador plays with a bull. We get so mad about the War that we don’t spend much time looking at what they’re doing with their other hand that is not waving the bright shiny object. We just charge with rage at the bright shiny object (war, social security, whatever) and meanwhile, brick by brick, they’re turning our country into a Fascist state.
I can’t take Reid’s nose-counting seriously. During Watergate, did the Senate do a headcount before authorizing the Select Committee that Sam Ervin chaired to look into certain things? If they had done so, Sen. Sam would not have had his several weeks of national fame that enshrined him in the Constitutional Hall of Fame forever. And Nixon’s plots might have succeeded (he was a lot more popular then, than Bush is now.)
I’m about ready to PUKE over the gutlessness of this Democratic Congress. Why are there only a few investigations going on? Are they afraid of their own shadows?
Bah! Humbug! :-)
Bob in HI
Mickey @ 127:
Duh! I knew that! This is why I love FDL…you guys are so smart (and snarky. I get my best laughs (and tears) of the day here.
I despise Joe Lieberman and to borrow from Natalie Maines, I’m “ashamed” he represents my state. Nothing will convince me that it wasn’t Rove’s string pulling that resulted in our having to even LOOK at him again and I pounded that in my blog all throughout the primary. “Holy” he isn’t, never was and never will be. I’d give my eye teeth to see him recalled but to date, I’ve seen no efforts around this. Sad.
Quick! Send Joan Rivers & Melissa to the courthouse tomorrow to ask the jury:
“Who Are You Wearing?”
Mary @ 135
Mary- from the comments I’ve read at FDL, it seems that there is no CT legal basis for recall of a Senator. You’re not the only one who has had that thought!
Oklahoma kiddo @
117
Me, too. He’s been magnificent in every role I’ve seen.
Bob in HI
Flagstaff, AZ 1987-2003
Margot @ 110 – thanks, I think. The thought of wading through Yoo’s personal grievances is daunting. I’m thinking his torture memo was inspired by every first grade slight he couldn’t put aside.
Plus, I’m not sure that it’s and improvement that Gonzales and the new “acting” assisstant AG and head of Office of Legal Counsel, Bradbury, think so much alike:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..00953.html
Gee – I wonder why Congress hasn’t gotten around to confirming this guy yet?
After seeing the 135, I guess I probably should go back to being Mary4.
Back stabbing?
Imagine ExXon contributing to a Republican, then going to a committee wanting a favor, what would be the reaction if turned down (or not?)
You know Minnesota has a former Governor who is also an underemployed Film Actor — mostly action pictures with lots of bloody close combat — but anyhow Jesse Ventura does a mean imitation of Cheney. Apparently there was some sort of emergency regional Governor’s meeting after 9/11, and Cheney attended as he was on his way to South Dakota to shoot birds. Afterwards, Ventura vamped the veep among some of his commissioners, and word got out.
As to Congress — understand they are all nose counters, and generally they do not sign on to resolutions or bills unless they sense they are on the winning side. The key is to localize pressure sufficient to cause they worry about their political base. For instance, last week a Kentucky Poll was published indicating that 52% of those polled believed the Senate should vote on the Iraq resolution. Of course their Senator, McConnell was the one standing in the way of this. So the question — how much can one jive up things in Kentucky so as to enlarge that 52% and/or identify their Senator with action against the position of his own voters?
We are not in Election mode at this point — we don’t have, in most cases, actual opponents. What needs doing is seeding the ground for a possible high quality opponent.
bmaz @
12
I don’t know if anyone else has mentioned this, but I think that the late, great Peter Boyle is now perfectly suited to play Shooter.
Peterr @50
reminds me of a quote on Alias-
Spymommy to Syd: Truth takes time.
Valley Girl @ 138
I vow to you that should I hear of it, I’ll be one of the first to sign on! :)
“During Watergate, did the Senate do a headcount before authorizing the Select Committee that Sam Ervin chaired to look into certain things? If they had done so, Sen. Sam would not have had his several weeks of national fame that enshrined him in the Constitutional Hall of Fame forever.”
The resolution that created the Ervin Committee passed 77-0. If you read the resolution you’ll see it is primarily aimed at the corruption in Campaign Finance, and it was only after that investigation that the Committee branched out to other Nixon Corruptions. Congressional Investigations have to be pegged on something Congress can address legislatively. There were four Supreme Court decisions on this in the late 1950’s, decisions that pretty much ended the kind of smear hearings HUAC, McCarren and Joe McCarthy specialized in during the late 1940’s and 50’s. (Hopefully no one wants to repeat that history.)
Mary @ 141
Uh oh – have we met our alter egos? LOL..my usual SN is “Rkymtnmary” and I’d be happy to switch to that.
Mary @
148
Rkythnmary- Mary/ aka Mary4 has been around FDL for a long long time, tho she has not been posting as often lately as she once did. I (as a former moderator) endorse your gracious offer. It will help the current mods stay sane. I’ve been here for quite a while, but when I took a brief break it created great consternation when someone else posted as Valley Girl!
Bob Schacht in HI @ 134 – Indeed.
RedShift @ 76 – Thanks for the link to Code Pink DC’s actions. I have to say, though, that the idea of marginalizing the general public by enclosing them all in garish pink “anti-war” T-shirts is not an effective approach, in my opinion [just ask the Valentine’s Day juror…]. The idea of physically occupying space in our own Capitol and office buildings is, however, very much the idea. We need overalls, business suits, jogging sweats, nursing uniforms, fast food uniforms, blue jeans, high heels – every manner of attire that the average American wears daily: because the point that needs pounding, in the face of our “representatives,” is that we are the American people as a whole, not some fringe stereotype that they can dismiss, and we mean business.
As Bob says, what is really at stake here is the Legislative Branch as a co-equal branch of government. The federal Republican Party basically had a private oath-violating fire sale auction of our Congress to the highest bidder during the last six years, thereby silencing the voice of the American people by shuttering our branch of the federal government. Yet so far, the Democrats seem to be afraid to openly and loudly declare that – through them – the voice of the American people has returned to Washington, D.C., and that the Democratic Party will be repossessing and restoring all the powers and rights of Congress, that the Republican Party sold off to their corporate cronies, for the rightful decision-makers of this nation: the people.
The bluffing of Reid and Pelosi is being called by Cheney and Bush. If the Democrats won’t revive the Congress as a co-equal power in our government before a Democrat takes over the presidency, will the Congress ever revive? That’s my underlying concern. And I certainly appreciate that this state of affairs has been decades in the making. But things have long since come to a critical point, and to such a state of crisis, that action can no longer be deferred, if we want to continue to pretend that our federal government still functions as our Constitution, and the Revolutionary War victors against a tyrannical King, intended.
One commission the Congress could establish – in line with Sara’s point about Ervin’s Committee and the 1950s SCOTUS rulings – is one to study and reform the massive Executive Branch secrecy now inherent in our modern ‘national security state’ and its Congressionally-defined classification protocols. That is very much in Congress’s arena, could address the tweaking that I think CIPA needs at the same time, and could also go a long way toward resolving the crisis in treatment, and need for protection, of our federal whistleblowers. But yet all we get, on every front, is whistling in the wind from our so-called representatives.
Would that our Members of Congress would read Christy’s clear post, its thoughtful links, and the comments above, and truly take our sentiments to heart, before they force us to confront them face to face, in condemnation of their conscience-less, craven pandering to politics as usual.
Valley Girl @ 149
Happy to oblige…consider it done!
Gallup Poll results decoded:
American Electorate 1; Saudi Arabia 0.
Tell it like it is.
Mickey @
116
i like the way Mickey’s mind works.
Christy Hardin Smith @
102
i caught myself.
i was surprised to realize that Plame House is still in full operation.
once the courtroom argument phase was over i was like ready to put the fork in it.
as if.
so we are still encamped at the house that Plame built and sweating snark-infested bullets waiting out our verdict.
but yet will the full-figured one sing?
what more courtroom time for sentencing?
chances of a retrial if we mistrial?
options for appeal(s)?
we have so far to go.
“the woods are lovely, dark and deep
and i have promises to keep
and miles to go before i sleep.
miles to go before i sleep.”
i am kicking in $20 for our Mission of Our Lady of Plame House.
thanks a trillion times that for being there for us.
twolf1 @
123
“p.s. And make it the old Mr Potato Head, where you got body parts with spikes and stuck them into a real potato.”
It’s like a Disney voodoo doll.
About casting: Peter Boyle could do a great anything. The man was a god.
All of the casting talk has been for white actors. There are plenty of African-American actors who could play Wells. The big dramatic emotional finish when the defense closes is the sticking point: it will be hard to find a name actor in this day and age who would be willing to get down on his knee and sing “Mammy” like Al Jolson like Wells did.