
(Photo from Reuters via The Age.)
Oh look. Over there. A report about scary Iranians from 2003 that's just now surfacing. Gee…wonder why? Any guesses? Could it have something to do with this?
Mr. Cheney’s trip was shrouded in secrecy, and he was on the ground for only a few hours, sharing a private lunch with the Pakistani leader at his palace. Notably, Mr. Cheney traveled with the deputy director of the Central Intelligence Agency, Steve Kappes, an indication that the conversation with the Pakistani president likely included discussion of American intelligence agency contentions that Al Qaeda camps have been reconstituted along the border of Afghanistan.
The decision to send Mr. Cheney secretly to Pakistan came after the White House concluded that General Musharraf is failing to live up to commitments he made to Mr. Bush during a visit here in September. General Musharraf insisted then, both in private and public, that a peace deal he struck with tribal leaders in one of the country’s most lawless border areas would not diminish the hunt for the leaders of Al Qaeda and the Taliban.
Now, American intelligence officials have concluded that the terrorist infrastructure is being rebuilt, and that while Pakistan has attacked some camps, its overall effort has flagged.
The historical truth is that the Pashtun areas on the Pakistani/Afghani border have never been under any semblance of governmental control at any time. Period. Read any history or political text about the region to get a sense of just how deeply rooted the tribal culture and the shutting out of outsiders goes — and that includes a larger loyalty to tribal allegiance than to any national boundary line that may have been drawn across their region. That there is a resurgence of al qaeda and Taliban forces in the region, massing for another push come spring from both sides of the border, should have come as no surprise to any military or intelligence officer.
Did no one bother to explain any of the long-time intricacies of the region to Bush and Cheney before we decided to leave a skeletal force in Afghanistan and go off to the mess of our own making in Iraq? Or did they just not care?
As E.J. Dionne says today in the WaPo:
The fabricate-and-smear cycle illustrated so dramatically during the case of I. Lewis "Scooter'' Libby explains why President Bush is failing to rally support for the latest iteration of his Iraq policy. The administration's willingness at the outset to say anything, no matter how questionable, to justify the war has destroyed its credibility. Its habit of attacking those who expressed misgivings has destroyed any goodwill it might have enjoyed. Bush and Cheney have lost the benefit of the doubt….
…those words illustrate the administration's political methodology from the very beginning of its public campaign against Iraq. Back in 2002 and early 2003, it browbeat a reluctant country into this war by making assertions about an Iraqi nuclear program that proved to be groundless and by inventing ties between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda that didn't exist.
Then, once our troops were committed, anyone who had second thoughts could be trashed and driven back as a pro-terrorist weakling. The quagmire would be self-perpetuating: Once you checked in, you could never leave.
The evidence presented at the Libby trial has demonstrated how worried Cheney was that this scheme could unravel….
Whatever price Scooter Libby pays, the country is already paying for the divisive practices of a crowd that wanted to go to war in Iraq in the very worst way — and did exactly that. As a result, we confront the mess in Baghdad and the continued threat of terrorism as an angry, polarized nation.
And what price are we, as a nation, paying at the moment? The Europeans, even our staunchest allies, are disgusted by our fundamental lack of understanding of even basic diplomacy — we are making a mess of the Iran situation and Bush's inability to be anything but a pigheaded, stubborn jerk on the world stage has played a large role in toppling the Italian government. As if this were even possible, the American public trusts the Bush Administration even less this month with regard to their conduct of the war in Iraq.
As for the treatment of the very soldiers who risk their lives in our nation's uniform for these failed Bush policies? Hundreds are homeless. And the lack of care they are receiving is heartbreaking.
After returning from Iraq in late 2005, Jonathan Schulze spent every day struggling not to fall apart. When a Department of Veterans Affairs clinic turned him away last month, he lost the battle. The 25-year-old Marine from Stewart, Minn., had told his parents that 16 men in his unit had died in two days of battle in Ramadi. At home, he was drinking hard to stave off the nightmares. Though he managed to get a job as a roofer, he was suffering flashbacks and panic attacks so intense that he couldn't concentrate on his work. Sometimes, he heard in his mind the haunting chants of the muezzin—the Muslim call to prayer that he'd heard many times in Iraq. Again and again, he'd relive the moments he was in a Humvee, manning the machine gun, but helpless to save his fellow Marines. "He'd be seeing them in his own mind, standing in front of him," says his stepmother, Marianne.
Schulze, who earned two Purple Hearts for wounds sustained in Iraq, was initially reluctant to turn to the VA. Raised among fighters—Schulze's father served in Vietnam and over the years his older brother and six stepbrothers all enlisted in the military—Jonathan might have felt asking for help didn't befit a Marine.
But when the panic attacks got to be too much, he started showing up at the VA emergency room, where doctors recommended he try group therapy. He resisted; he didn't think hearing other veterans' depressing problems would help solve his own. Then, early last month, after more than a year of anxiety, he finally decided to admit himself to an inpatient program. Schulze packed a bag on Jan. 11 and drove with his family to the VA center in St. Cloud, about 70 miles away. The Schulzes were ushered into the mental-health-care unit and an intake worker sat down at a computer across from them. "She started typing," Marianne says. "She asked, 'Do you feel suicidal?' and Jonathan said, 'Yes, I feel suicidal'." The woman kept typing, seemingly unconcerned. Marianne was livid. "He's an Iraqi veteran!" she snapped. "Listen to him!" The woman made a phone call, then told him no one was available that day to screen him for hospitalization. Jonathan could come back tomorrow or call the counselor for a screening on the phone.
When he did call the following day, the response from the clinic was even more disheartening: the center was full. Schulze would be No. 26 on the waiting list. He was encouraged to call back periodically over the next two weeks in case there was a cancellation. Marianne was listening in on the conversation from the dining room. She watched Jonathan, slumped on the couch, as he talked to the doctor. "I heard him say the same thing: I'm suicidal, I feel lost, I feel hopelessness," she says. Four days later Schulze got drunk, wrapped an electrical cord around a basement beam in his home and hanged himself. A friend he telephoned while tying the noose called the police, but by the time officers broke down the door, Schulze was dead.
This is appalling. It is unconscionable. And it is well past time that the Bush Administration was called to account, along with the Republican members of Congress who allowed this abysmal situation to continue to deteriorate for the last six years under their watch.
For shame. Our nation's soldiers deserve far, far better than this. And so do all Americans. The time for honesty and accountability is now.
It is well past time for questions to be asked, and for Congress and the public and the media to demand that they be fully answered. The lives of every American soldier and our national security depend on the Bush Administration making the right choices for all of our safety over the long haul. Be honest with yourself: do you trust George Bush and Dick Cheney to make these decisions with the nation's interest in mind? Or do you think that maybe, just maybe, they'll be making more decisions and maneuvers that do nothing more than cover their own behinds as they stall in place — in this failed, miserable place — until the clock runs out on the Bush Presidency, leaving this mess for someone else to clean up for them?
(And, fwiw, Bradblog asks some interesting questions about Dick Cheney. As does CNN's Kevin Bohn. Would that we had more answers to all of these.)
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FITZ!
Jane!
CHS. You folks are the best. Thank you for all you do.
shooogarp at 3 — Awww, thanks.
When Wells was observed “pleased” and Fitz was observed “angry” regarding the decision to move forward with eleven, who was watching? Was the jury in the room or just parties and media?
funny, should be labeled under;
american president and vice president; facts regarding treason:
they are now supporting Al Caca and Bin Laden. What is new about this, they have always supported the saudi’s and done their bidding. nothing has changed.
they are now telling the Perv that something is going on, but I bet you 100:1 that it isn’t about anything that they are saying it is about
The only thing I cannot stand about a ramp-up with Iran is that the Iranians I encounter in random daily activities shows that Iranians are moderate and level headed.
I imagine that those who are a little more on the Nationalist or ‘Islamic First’ pursuasion will get louder as the U.S. drums up more threats, and points more guns in Iran’s direction.
This causes the moderates or secularists(sp?) to quiet down and partially admit that the nationalists have points. Fence sitters side with the right, Iran plays right where the U.S. wants them to.
I desperately do not want this war, because from what I encounter with Iranians, is that this country still has hope. If there is more security to Iran, then Iranians will lean for a moderate government. In many ways, they already have. A recent vote gave insight that Iranians reject Ahmadinejad’s policies. But if we were to start conflict with Iran, then Iranians will do what any other nation does: Rely on their leaders in times of crises.
My $0.02
o/t (sorry Christie, caught something in background 1/2 way through post)
just caught Noron actually questioning winger’s (Ron Christy: a Cheney pet) logic wrt firing Carol Lam on performance issues
run for your lives, it’s the 7th sign ! ! !
I just heard a rumor that Jane or Mrs. Libby lost her underwear in the bathroom. My sources tell me the marshals at the Prettygirl Building are now checking all bags for the missing thong.
Christy , a comment by Dredd on bradblog “If Libby is found not guilty, Fitz would have the right to appeal and try to show that there was no “good cause” to use the 11-person jury instead of using an alternate juror to bring the total back up to 12 persons.”
What’s your take on that? Thanks
As a physician, I can tell you that anyone who openly states that they’re suicidal doesn’t get to leave the hospital. Period. Paragraph.
If the above story is even remotely accurate, the hospital needs to be sued into oblivion. “The hospital is full” is NOT an acceptable excuse to deny someone admission. You are obligated to arrange a transfer to another facility, and the patient should remain in the clinic or emergency room pending the transfer. We have ambulances for this. This kind of case is a malpractice attorney’s ideal scenario.
Anybody got an update on Jane?
Deadeye shows his ever-present cowardly stripes in that NYT article:
Another “tired” old Deadeye bromide. Whenever he has to tell someone the “bad” news, it is always the fault of the Democrats.
Of course, Junya, Deadeye and the rest of the Repug slugs would never cut off Musharraf’s allowance, ’cause he’s doing a heckuva job!
FITZ!
A platitude that we now hear – at least from my Reublican friends – is that “Yes, we made a mistake (in electing Bush), but we only have two more years and then we will have another chance”!!
As a long time civil servant in the military, I often saw where “waiting out” a political Assistant Secretary or a too full of himself general actually made some sense. We would just minimize the harm the individual could do and move on when the replacement came aboard.
This is not a prudent choice for the Nation with the Bushies. These people learn nothing and continue to think they are God – or at least with powers coming directly from God.
Two more years will drive our Country further away from our traditional values and waste more of our peoples’ blood and treasure.
I have never been a real proponent of removing people from office but I do think that serious consideration must be given to impreaching Bush and Cheney.
I was feeling soooo good about the trial after Fitz’s closing, but I am having a hard time understanding how Art Lady intentionally sought outside information yet Walton concluded that she didn’t intentionally disobey his instructions. The only thing I can figure that is consistent with both these assertions is that she was doing internet research on some other matter, and yet somehow a search on The Google brought up information that related to Libby or Cheney or the CIA leak case that she couldn’t shield herself from. But how likely is that?
I also don’t understand why Wells wouldn’t ask for a mistrial. Perhaps he’s totally drunk the Kool-Aid — and lawyers do tend to believe in their own arguments the more they make them — but I wouldn’t be so confident that Libby’s getting acquitted, based on the record in this case. It’s not impossible of course, but why wouldn’t he grab a mistrial if he could? If he has to try the case again, he does so with knowledge of what Fitz’s witnesses will say, and without overpromising in his own opening.
Must. Get. Back. To. Work…..
Interesting bio:
Judge Reggie Walton was nominated to his position on the United States District Court of Columbia in October 2001 by President George W. Bush. He served as President George H. W. Bush’s associate director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy in the executive office of the president and as senior White House adviser for crime.
Not sure if i completely trust Walton…
Once you checked in, you could never leave.
They stab it with their steely knives but they just can’t kill the beast. -Hotel California, Eagles
Waiting for a Jury is worse than election night [except for 2000]. Usually, on election night, it’s going to be over within hours. This is more like the waiting room outside the labor room with baby number one [back in the days when we were kept outside]. In a regular world, a 70 year old Art Curator who doesn’t like tacky t-shirts peeking at the Internet wouldn’t be big news. And any other time, we’d just tell Jane to go home and take a nap. She just got out of the Hospital. But today, we are forced to speculate on bits and pieces, because doing nothing isn’t much of an option, and doing something else isn’t much of an option either. I tried t.v. but Suzanne Sommers was ragging at some lady for asking her if she’d had plastic surgery or botox. I suggest talking about the weather. It’s beautiful today in the Georgia Mountains. Like Spring…
Frank Probst @ 11
Agreed. My sister is a shrink who’s run the psych ER — you stick the guy in the hallway on a gurney if you have to, but you don’t let them walk away.
On the power struggle between Rice and Cheney in foreign-policy issues. From the same article by John Heilemann that I linked to in the last thread:
EJ Dione spells it out quite nicely. BushCo lied there way into Iraq. Their reasoning was manipulative, deceitful and devoid of basis in fact.
Now the people say, “Get the troops out of Iraq, bring them home, you lied about everything.” So Bush pumps 21,000 more American combat troops into Bagdhad and 48,000 including support troops.
Bush says terrorists, terrorists, terrorists! Who’s the terrorist?
Just an innocent (EPU’d) thought here:
If the intact jury were aware that the curator made an innocent rule breakage in her very important duties and no replacement is made then the jury may perceive the concept of rule breakage as essentially harmless, forgivable. Point for Wells. Had a replacement been made and deliberations upset, the jury may have perceived the concept of rule breakage as less than harmless, problematic. Point for Fitz.
litigatormom @ 16
IIRC, the jurors weren’t supposed to go meandering around the toobz. Email was okay, but I don’t think googling things would be.
From the WAPO link Christy posted…
Wake up Democrats (in both houses). No more war, no more funding, no more recesses until the Republicans are forced to acknowledge facts.
Fund mental health and other needs of our vets for gawds sakes.
Every day and night Dems should not rest without confirming Republicans are at fault for this madness.
About to send my weekly mail to both senators and my congressman. May just send my first contribution to the one presidential candidate who gets it. Kucinich.
Biodun @ 21
So would Cheney’s globetrotting be to cement relations with his buddies to make sure Condi is locked out? So busy, the VP of State, the VP of Defense, the VP of everything. And do we know what Dick’s BFF Rummy is doing these days? And who is babysitting Junyah while Dick’s out of town?
Cliff Shecter on his way down for lunch. Doesn’t know yet he’s buying…
;)
litigatormom @ 16
good luck with that :)
Have a nice lunch Jane!! say “Hi” from all the firepups.
Jeez, the suicide is heartbreaking. Couldn’t someone give him a prescription for something in the meantime? If his mother heard him say he was suicidal, couldn’t they have arranged to have someone with him all of the time? (No fault of the parents. I’m sure they considered all of the options and did what the thought they needed to do. But maybe someone at the VA could have made some helpful suggestions.)
As for Bush’s knowledge of foreign policy, we all heard him screw up the “Who’s the president of Pakistan?” question prior to the 2000 election. And we were told that we were just being a bunch of know-it-all smarty pants because we thought he should have known the answer. Oh, he would learn it all before it was really necessary. Don’t worry. Condi will bring him up to speed. In retrospect, since he was planning to invade Iraq anyway, he should have known all of this stuff. Or, conversely, he just never thought (there’s an understatement) that Afghanistan and Pakistan would be an problem. He was looking at Iraq, after all. He probably didn’t even realize that Afghanistan and Pakistan were only an Iran away. Geography, phiw! Who needs that?!
Jane Hamsher @
27
With enough effort, you can find a silver lining to just about anything. :) Even at 40% brain voltage, you rock, Jane.
Sort of tangentially topical…. I am wondering what to make of Chuck Hagel’s dilliance with a “mixed ticket”. I saw that report on HuffPo this morning. He certainly is one of the strongest anti-war high profile politicians out there. If he were to make a run on a third party ticket, with maybe a qualified and well thought of Dem, I wonder what would happen? If he won, I doubt we would be in Iraq for much longer, or be coordinating plans for war with Iran. Heck, depending on the Dem candidate, I might even vote for him.
Jeralyn seems to agree that the two alternates were probably perceived to be pro-prosecution and that’s why Wells was happy with the decision.
Jane Hamsher @ 27
Lucky! He’s a cutie. Too bad he’s taken.
Swopa @ 31
Amen to that, Swopa. I’d take her at 20% over my bad moods anyday.
Did you get your leather
vestjacket back, btw?I see another book opportunity here.
” The Travels and Travails of the Trying Times in the Scooter Libby Trial”.
Jane,
Did you check with security/lost and found?
You will need photo ID to get back into the courthouse. Maybe security can write you a letter instead.
emptywheel—
Are you coming back to DC?
Jane lost her phone and wallet.
zeppo @ 32
With Hagel’s great ES&S connections, he’d probably win even if nobody voted for him.
It actually much worse than that — the Pakistan ISI (Inter Service Intelligence) created both Al Qaida and the Taliban [Frontline — Return of the Taliban] — and there is considerable evidence that the 9/11 attacks were planned by the ISI, and subcontracted to Bin Laden & Company.
A friend who is a licensed small aircraft pilot said there is no way he could fly a commercial jet airliner — but a military pilot could. Which in turn, suggests that the “terrorist fight school” might have been used to cover the indentities of the real perps.
General Hamid Gul, the former head of the ISI and current leader of the Pakistan opposition party (representing the lawless north west territories) wired $100k to Mohammed Atta shortly before 9/11. Sacked by the government after the attacks, he now represents 1/4 of the Pakistan population and 1/2 of it’s territory.
How does Bush/Cheney respond? By invading Iraq, and shipping F-16s to Pakistan.
Wiki on General Gul.
Profile and Timeline on General Gul.
Article on ISI involvement in 9/11.
Asia Times article on the 9/11 Smoking Gun.
This abandonment of vets by Bush and Company is an ongoing thing. Could someone tell me how many cuts to the vets have gone through with this administraion??? I seem to recall that congress and the budgets have been reducing funding ceaslessly. And the red states, where most of the soldiers hail from, remain subsurvient…
emptywheel @ 35
Not yet. When did you send
what was left ofit?EPU’d hilarity from last thread (sez poster):
it’s impolite to put your taint on another juror.
alright i’m done for the day.
Neil @
22
Why say “Lied” when you can just as easily say “Forged”?
It’s so patently more crimiinal.
egregious @ 38
If the jury is still deliberating at the end of day today, I’ll be on a 9PM flight to DC to take care of Jane.
Damn ice storms.
I’ve recently been through a situation with a family member that is similar to the one in which Jonathan Schulze was turned away from a psych unit, despite telling them that he was suicidal. To give all of you an idea how bad things are in this country, Minnesota is ranked in the highest category awarded to a state for the quality of its mental health care by the National Institute of Mental Health. Overall, the group awarded our nation a D, and no state was awarded an A. Quite a few states, including Kentucky where I live, were awarded an F.
Can it get any worse than it already is?
Swopa @ 40
Hmm. Jane was going to try to send it. But then had to hang on the verdict. So maybe the
vestjacket will still be there tonight when I get back.Emptywheel, good for you.
There has to be a decision by tomorrow because I will be away from computers and TV’s on Wednesday. Please let it happen before then…
emptywheel @ 44
Hurray!!! for Marcy.
litigatormom @ 20
This incident does more than indicate the criminal negligence of the bureaucray. It also gives you an idea of how many returning vets are suicidal. Wards jammed? Waiting list, how long?
Disgraceful.
I thought Hyatt had people to keep stuff like Dionne’s from getting published in the WaPo.
LBrowne @ 24
I agree. It’s hard to see how any foray onto the Intertubes could have been “innocent.” Unless she went shopping on Amazon and suddenly found herself face to face with Marcy’s book?
Victoria Jones was just on with Thom Hartmann and said that they are seating an alternate juror.
Thom should watch out for her – she does not report accurate information.
BushCo has created an incredibly paradoxical situation in which the US is now against itself, as it were:
From Sy Hersh in The New Yorker:
My bold.
emptywheel @ 45
I bet Kobe’s been wearing it for the past week.
litigatormom @ 50
Dangit, did you write a review that said, “Marcy Wheeler proves that, not only is Irving guilty of perjury, but he orchestrated the whole damn leak.”
Because I intentionally left that part off the cover, for just this reason.
Any possibility that the other 11 jurors have been bought off?
Hmm. Jane was going to try to send it. But then had to hang on the verdict.
Wouldn’t it be more convenient to hang it on a coat rack?
Swopa @ 53
Probably Katie. With the sleeves cut off, it wouldn’t fit Kobe anymore. And Katie was sweeting up to me for something.
timmyc at 57 — No.
I just cried about the soldier’s suicide. When my son came home from Iraq he was depressed and diagnosed with PTSD. The VA asked him if he was suicidal and he said no, but very depressed, anxious, and short tempered. He couldn’t get an appointment to see a counselor unless he was suicidal and they didn’t even recommend group therapy for him.
ew at 47 —
Hmm. Jane was going to try to send it. But then had to hang on the verdict.
Wouldn’t it be more convenient to hang it on a coat rack?
egregious @ 56
Hopefully, the verdict will be even stronger than the coat rack. Swopa’s a big guy, you know, and has a mighty leather
vestjacket.At this point, every move has to be considered in relation to the jury and what the jury thinks. What would be the impact on the jury of going back into the deliberation room, down one member? What would be the impact of the “loss” of this particular person, in terms of the group dynamic?
timmyc @ 57
I guarantee you, if Libby is acquitted there are 11 people who will be watched carefully until the end of time to see if they spend more money than they should.
Is there a computer geek or some FLD squad member at the Court Hopuse who can scan the last thread as well as this one and put together an organized To-Do-List of the several good suggestions for getting back Jane’s wallet etc. and hand it to Jane. Better yet, personally check out some of the suggestions and let Jane stay seated at the frontline.
lf @ 43
Well, that would be slightly more blatant than Toensing’s approach…
Please go to Wes Clark’s site and sign the petition:
StopIranWar.com: “War is not the answer”
http://securingamerica.com/
Marcy—I quickly checked the reviews and none of them says that. If you see something fishy let us know, at least 2 can be changed.
sweetp @ 61
Folks, this is why the VVAW started the first “rap groups”. It was a response to the total negligence on the part of both the military and the VA. It’s also why we built the Wall our goddamn selves.
scarebaby @ 64
Total speculation, but I think they’re going to crank out a verdict as quickly yet efficiently as possible now. My guess is tomorrow.
Froomkin’s up — all Cheney.
On the treatment of our soldiers. Just in case anyone missed this, Lizette Alvarez at the NYTimes on how this stupid war is destroying the families of soldiers who survived combat:
My bold.
scarebaby @ 63
11 is divisible only by itself and 1. 12 is divisible by 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, and itself. So what, you ask? 12 is a sacred number that enhances communication and agreement. Eleven does not.
egregious @ 67
Maybe air-dropping copies over D.C. wasn’t such a great promotional idea after all.
Mason @ 44
Defunding Mental Health started in the Nixon days and has continued to aim for the bottom since that time. The Carter years were the only slight blip upwards. Those of us in the field during those years were literally driven out if we questioned the lack of ongoing care. So many of us finished our careers in Private Practice, not by choice, but by necessity. The alternative was to be in the situation of the intake worker above – processing human tragedy in a system that had nothing to offer – no room in the Inn. Actually, the largest Mental Health facility in the U.S. today is the L.A. County jail.
This is not a new story, it’s now an old sad story. No. It can’t get any worse. It’s already been there for very a long time…
I just got in front of the computer.
So……anything new? :D
Swopa @ 73
Btw, lots of people were impressed with the way I (ha!) managed to get my book on the cover of the NYT. When I explained who did it they said, “Who names their kid Swopa?”
After how cute he looked in the videos, I bet a lot of kids will be named Swopa.
*xyz @
71
Or 1/180th of a Friedman.
Anyone ever hear of a shadow government? I remember hearing this a few years ago when Jello Biafra came to town – Let the largest majority opposition form a shadow cabinet – 1 president, VP, secretary of state, etc etc.
Each of these people would align their voices in opposition to the current government.
For examples sake – John Edwards as president, secretary of State Bill Clinton, secretary of Defence Wesley Clark, Attorney General Pat Fitzgerald, Secretary of the Interior Al Gore.
Now these hopefuls would represent their future positions assuming Edwards is elected in 2008. They could critisize their mirrored position’s activities. They could explain what they would do, and offer advice on what needs to be done. Since they know their focus 2 years in advance, they can stay on track, and not have to deviate in state matters in which their experience may be lacking.
Voters would see how they would operate on several issues. If they like how the Shadow Secretary of Defense operates, then this would make them feel more comfortable with them in 2 or so years.
I really like the idea of a nicely formed cabinet before they approach office. As it stands, we have many presidential hopefuls gunning for presidency. No one is talking about the other cabinet positions, but they must be filled with capable officials nevertheless. I say democrats should lead a good example and approach the next election in this fashion.
Mason @ 74
4 is right out.
Once again Victoria Jones has chimed in with information that the dismissed juror is to be replaced with an alternate. (just heard her on Thom Hartmann’s show). I don’t know whether she’s just making this stuff up when she speaks or if she really knows what she claims is factual? If she’s just whistling in the wind then Hartmann shouldn’t talk to her any more.
emptywheel @ 78
I believe his given name is “Needlenose.”
oh crap Swopa !, apparently Kobe met a DC cutie he wished to impress*g*
Mason @ 74
“11 is divisible only by itself and 1. 12 is divisible by 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, and itself. So what, you ask? 12 is a sacred number that enhances communication and agreement. Eleven does not.”
So, you are saying that it’s easier to reach consensus with 12 rather than 11? Or do I need more coffee.
It’s been my experience that anything over 3 and there are problems.
Balrog @ 80
Exactly. And in the spirit of Friedman, if there is no verdict tomorrow, I will predict one on Wednesday. And so on and so forth. This way, I cannot fail!
Swopa @ 75
Or turkeys.
CancerCures @ 7
Somehow, the powers-that-be at the WH just don’t seem to understand that fighting Iran isn’t the same as deposing a cheesy tinpot dictator who likes to pin ribbons on his own chest and rules with utter disregard for his people. We would be fighting a system, a government with coherent institutions, rules and political leaders who have substantial legitimacy with their own people.. even if these leaders are, by our standards, unpleasant. If the idea that a plurality of Iraqis were ready to rise up and welcome us as their liberators was naive, it’s utterly ludicrous in the case of Iran. Sure, there’re dissidents there, and there are alot of people who aren’t happy with their president and supreme leader, but that’s in much the same sense that a lot of Americans are upset with shrub. We’re not about to run shrub out of office with a bloody revolution, and neither are the Iranians to their leaders. The hubris of Cheney’s thugocrats is, once again, simply astounding.
Balrog @ 88
LOL! WFDL in Blogistani….
cbl @ 83
Guffaw.
*xyz at 87
Exactly. And in the spirit of Friedman, if there is no verdict tomorrow, I will predict one on Wednesday. And so on and so forth. This way, I cannot fail!
Actually, in the spirit of Friedman, I predict verdicts on BOTH Tuesday and Wednesday.
cbl @ 85
that’s funny!
Wait, somebody help me out here.
Jane lost her wallet because it was in the pocket of Swopa’s leather jacket?!
TeddySanFran @ 72
THANKS! I love Froomkin. He doesn’t shoot until he sees the whites of their eyes.
egregious @ 92
I predict that the jury will be greeted with flowers and candy.
cbl @ 85
Say, that IS a nice looking jacket.
I can see why you want it back.
Kinda short in the sleeves tho.
Somebody check the names on that dog’s credit cards.
Al Queda is regrouping in Afghanistan so of course we should attack Iran.
Jane–
Thanks for the call out on the last thread. I returned from playing hookie to working at hookie here to see my little take quoted. An honor indeed.
I hope you relocated your wallet, phone and most importantly found some pantyhose in something close to your size.
Firedoglake: All the nudes that fit.
Poppy is not ill-nicknamed.
a*shole.
kml @ 85
So, you are saying that it’s easier to reach consensus with 12 rather than 11? Or do I need more coffee.
It’s been my experience that anything over 3 and there are problems.
Informed consensus is easier to reach with 12, which is symbolically expressed by the mythical story of King Arthur. 12 is a unanimity, a whole, because it is divisible by so many sacred numbers.
Meanwhile, OT but not quite.
Campbell Brown of NBC and wife of Dan Senor, BushCo’s erstwhile rep in Baghdad’s Green Zone, on Andrea Mitchell as her role model:
Yikes!
Logickal at 97—
In the department of so unfair, there already is a WFDL radio station.
On an encouraging note, there is this:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t…..434540.ece
Apparently our generals are threatening to walk if W wants to go into Iran…
sweetp @ 61
Bummer. Please thank your son for me for his service to country. My son is a recon corpsman and since he returned from Eyerack he spends a lot of his time trying to be sure his wounded of all kinds in various locales are properly looked after.
Depend not on the system.
-
QuentinCompson @ 105
Thanks to your son as well.
I know that the First Amendment is a generally good thing, and I know that it helps blogs like this flourish, but at time’s like this I think sub judice has an awful lot going for it. Or at very least, jury sequestration.
jinny @ 97. Thanks. I don’t have cable so its great to hear about it. Did you pick this up from their website or do you have an inside track?
ck @ 40 -
have said it over and over again on these threads that ISI is the underreported story
something tells me you’ve seen it, but just in case -
Press For Truth
approx. 1hr 11 minutes, and not a single scrap of tinfoil in it
So Iran wants to go nuclear and Bushco leaves everything on the table, except diplomacy.
Meanwhile we hand over nukes to India, support Pakistan as a nuclear power. Finally Six Arab states join rush to go nuclear Algeria, Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia, UAE and Saudi Arabia seek atom technology…and Bushco says nothing but we need to
condemnattack Iran no matter what.egregious @ 104
Sorry that should be at 90.
And jinny at 97 is FROM Countdown? We are honored.
[waves hi to fellow Cornellian KO]
kml @ 85
Who ever heard of going to the store for eleven eggs? or eleven donuts? or picking up an eleven pack?
Whose panty hose are these?
HotFlash @
65
I guess I’m naive. Who has the resources and the time to do this?
I have a feeling any items lost by the FDG correspondents will either soon be up for auction on eBay, or being donated to the Smithsonian.
Imagine what just a PIECE of that jacket might bring if FDL readers were bidding!
: )
Mickey @ 110
No, but sometimes I shop at the 7/11 to get those things.
Marion @ 105,
Interesting news..
But I am always astounded by the ability for public officials to ‘walk away’ and resign. It has happened so much in these past 7 years. Officials who are put in place to manage or oversee are ignored from higher ups. Since they lose their ability to perform their job, they QUIT.
I am reminded of ancient China during the Han Dynasty – This would happen a lot underneath corrupt or ignorant rulers. Officials would rather quit.
But bad things can happen ! They will be replaced with incompetent officials, and obviously officials who WILL do the job. That is not a good solution at all! Especially if we are talking about our military!
Since America is pretty damn secure against political crises (overt coups and the like), what else are military officials to do but either quit or comply? Do they have any other fucking choice???
Mickey @ 112
Mason @
101
kml @ 85
Informed consensus is easier to reach with 12, which is symbolically expressed by the mythical story of King Arthur. 12 is a unanimity, a whole, because it is divisible by so many sacred numbers.
Who ever heard of going to the store for eleven eggs? or eleven donuts? or picking up an eleven pack?
While we are at itLagniappe means a small gift given to a customer by a merchant at the time of a purchase, such as a 13th beignet when buying a dozen, or more broadly something given or obtained gratuitously or by way of good measure; a bonus.[1] The word is used in Trinidad and Tobago, Louisiana, Mississippi, the gulf coast of Alabama [2] and south-eastern Texas. It was also once in common usage by antiquarian booksellers, without regional limitation, and is still used by more old-fashioned members of that tribe.
Damn. If this jury has two holdouts, Cheney will be right: 9/11 changed everything.
Bakers dozen = 13, so your donut analogy is a little… sticky… or full of holes.
Pat if you are trying to call Jane re glasses she lost her phone and wallet.
Can you just take them to the courthouse?
And please remind her she will need a PHOTO ID to get back into the courthouse. Lots of passport photo places in DC. Thx.
I don’t have her number. She should have my e-mail, so I’m waiting to coordinate how to get them back to her.
I’ve discovered comments is easier to get ahold of Jane than e-mail.
I think she’s still at lunch. Cliff was to have been buying.
egregious @ 103
Oh, that’s too bad – would have been a natural name should there ever end up a Firedoglake podcast or radio show… :)
But still, the simple fact is that you don’t get to appreciate WKRP references very often, do you?
west coast: KFDL
Any of the lawyers out there – I’m confused about Looseheadprop’s initial post this morning. Did the jury announce that it couldn’t reach agreement, or was that speculation? Was the only issue that the juror was excused?
cbl @ 110
The ISI and 9ll:
http://www.cooperativeresearch…..ailed_look
FITZ!
EW, I presume you’ll be labless. Which is probably good, otherwise we might need search and rescue for MelleniaLab.
BBC’s Katty Kay on European animosity toward the US, and on the jingoistic reporting of US MSM:
Fitz!
Mod: Please take us out of ital.
HotFlash @
65
I guess I’m naive. Who has the resources and the time to do this?
From the published reports, the jurors appear to have discovered the media taint. This suggests to me that they were pointedly asking the art curator to defend her position. It sounds as though she might have brought up facts “not in evidence,” or which no other juror could recall hearing. Questions like “Where did you hear this,” might have led to her admission of being tainted by the media coverage?
Mason @
74
Trying not to engage in excessive ziggurating…
Shorter: 11 is prime, 12 is not.
Perhaps you were taking my advice from an earlier thread, that advice being not to speculate wildly unles you could say something really outrageous?
dab at 127 — LHP’s post was just an explanation of what they do if there is a deadlock. It was a “if this happens, then you will see this from the Judge” informational post. The jury did not deadlock — they are deliberating right now as I type this. (Minus the former art curator who has been removed from the jury as of this morning.)
Biodun — I am not on a MAC, and therefore, I see no italics. Could you please let me know where you see it starting and I will happily pull the offending comment and see what I can do. But without information as to where you see it starting, I cannot help you.
I’ve been doing alright with waiting for the Libby trial verdict for the last few days, but today, for some reason, I’m on pins & needles.
John Casper @ 135
Oh for her name or the department where she served as a curator at MOMA – anybody have a clue, any clue?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 137
I am on a Mac and I don’t see any? Browser?
11 is also known as a Master Number (as is 22, 33, 44, etc) with special properties and in numerology it isn’t reduced. An 11 will ring with truth.
DAmnit. The National Airport seats just closed out for tonight. Those of you in DC–which is less onerous to get into DC from–BWI or Dulles? We’re talking 11PM.
I do not see ital either on PC w/FF. F5 and clear your cache Biodun.
John Casper @ 134
that makes more sense to me
This little story over at Raw Story in response to Marcy’s interview:
For more:
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2….._0226.html
emptywheel @ 143
Try to go to Dulles, it’s very easy to get into town from there.
EW –
I can pick you up tonight at either airport — just go for what’s easiest for you!!
I’ll send phone etal later. mb
Dab, you’ve got mail…
CHS @ 138:
Thanks. I refreshed and it’s now back in roman. FYI: I’m on Windows platform.
CancerCures @ 81
Typical of a parliamentary system. Here in Canada the Minister of Health is a member of the current majority (all elected members of parliament, btw)and appointed by the prime minister. The opposition and other minority parties have their Health Critics, etc. for every cabinet position.
raven @ 139
Visine?
-
Biodun — try refreshing you whole screen. You may just have a hiccup somewhere that a browser refresh will cure, becaue we’re not seeing any open tags, even for mods on Macs.
lou costello,
Press for Truth is based on same terror timeline – outside of the ISI revelations/questions, Thompson’s long substantiated claim that all of this info was already out there and t/b collected and reported on was truly stunning
EW – both are equally easy. The BW parkway goes all the way from BWI into the city and will be clear. I always preferred BWI over Dulles, and the seats are generally cheaper.
EW–
central DC is about equidistant from BWI or IAD; I would say a slight edge to BWI.
EW — You will have a long cab ride into the apartment from BWI, just FYI. National is the closest. Dulles is second.
CHS – where is that apartment? I used to live Bethseda/Chevy Chase… I miss the bars and restaraunts, but not that weather!
at 11:00pm, I’d go Dulles. You’ll get downtown faster.
Christy Hardin Smith @
137
Hence IANOAMAC?
LOL…. Glad you asked about the airports?
Fresh thread for everyone.
Pat_AlexVA @ 157
I just wish I could buy the seat already.
Though–want to bet if I bought one right now, we’d get a verdict within minutes?
emptywheel @ 143
Probably Dulles.
BWI will almost certainly be cheaper to fly into. Just saw you have a ride? – go for BWI, it aint that far and if you’re not paying cab fare definitely best bet.
emptywheel @ 163
Not taking that bet. For many years I would light up a smoke if the kitchen/waiter was taking too long to bring dinner. Ho and I’d light up and like magic, there’s our meals!
For Dulles – getting to the city is straight shot. You got the Dulles connector road (no-toll portion) that feeds right onto 66 which goes right into DC and becomes (Constition ave).
Dulles is a major airport. I got stuck at BWI waiting for a taxi, less frequent taxi service, so I’m a bit biased. Although, I’ve never taken a taxi from Dulles. It seems like they have more taxi’s available.
I also presume you want quick so you can get home and to sleep.
so funny. maryland people always say BWI, VA people always say Dulles. The security apparatus/lines alone are enough reason to avoid Dulles.
emptywheel @ 142
Dulles — if the plane’s more or less on time you could take the Washington Flyer shuttle to the West Falls Church Metro station and take the Orange line into DC.
randiego has a good point, while I would love to ARRIVE at Dulles, leaving from there SUCKS.
timmyc @ 114
Us.
randiego @
167
I’m inclined to get a one way and fly home from DCA. So that’s not an issue in this direction.
EW,
I’ve found BWI has more CONUS flights. Dulles is more international. The BW parkway feeds right into downtown DC and might be easier to use.
If they ever get the Metro extended to Dulles then it will be a different story.
Good luck and safe traveling.
newspaperbrat @ 139
newsbrat – from what I have heard on MSNBC (Schuster) she worked at NY Metropolitan Museum of Art, not MOMA. She is no longer there, as she works as a critic or something in DC.
Twisted Martini @ 148
okay twisted. i’ll go check
In a high profile effort to bolster his credibility on national security, 2008 Republican White House hopeful Mitt Romney last week called on New York to divest its pension fund of any holdings in firms doing with business with Iran. But as it turns out, it is Mitt Romney’s former employer with the ties to Tehran. And as you’d expect, Dick Cheney’s Halliburton is in deep as well.
For the details, see:
“Romney, Cheney in Deep with Iran Investments.”
EW – what city you coming from? I used to fly quite a bit between san diego and DC, and I loved those non-stops out of DCA.
Reported that the power is out at the courthouse
See
http://www.orient-lodge.com/
EW:
Dulles is both closer and has more flight options from DTW than BWI. It is also more expensive.
The problem with BWI is that it is really Baltimore’s airport so the cab fare to DC will be more expensive. Typically, if you’re staying in DC, from BWI its cheapest and most convenient to jump on the Metroliner into Union Station, if you can arrange your travel schedule accordingly. I wouldn’t recommend BWI if you’re taking the last flight in at night.
Further Adventures in Reading the New York Times.
In today’s Times, there is an article entitled “U.S. Says Raid in Iraq Supports Claim on Iran” by James Glanz and Richard Oppel with Michael Gordon and Scott Shane contributing. The Times has been sensitive to criticisms on this issue. This article shows that the authors have tried to address some of the concerns raised while at the same time continuing in many ways to miss the forest for the trees.
The title is less inflammatory by not appearing to state an assertion as a fact but it remains misleading. The “US” in question is not the President, the Vice President, or the Secretaries of State and Defense, it is a single military weapons expert Major Marty Weber. Now it is nice that the Times has actually named him instead of referring to him as an anonymous source but if we are to go to war with Iran I would like it to be on something more than his say so. The “Iran” in the title is equally nebulous. Are we talking the Supreme leader Khamenei, President Ahmadinejad, al Quds, some other governmental entity, or does it mean simply a smuggling conduit?
Now to be fair to the authors some of this is addressed in their opening paragraph.
So it is manufacture of EFPs (explosively formed projectiles), a more lethal type of IED used by some Shia militias against armored Humvees that we are talking about. Moreover, in a new attempt at balance, the Times immediately adds the caveat “but critics contend that the forensic case remains circumstantial and inferential.” Seriously though, does the Times really need critics to assess whether evidence is circumstantial or not? Isn’t this a job that, oh say, its own reporters could and should perform?
This gets back to my central criticism of the Times coverage of the whole Iran-Iraq connection: it lacks critical thinking and investigation by Times reporters. For many reasons, Iran is involved in Iraq. Yet the nature of that involvement is seldom explored by the Times and its reporters, and no attempt is made to integrate such an understanding into an article like this one. The Iranians wish to ensure that Iraq’s majority Shia prevail in the ongoing civil war and that they will have influence over whichever Shia group eventually dominates. The Iranians also seek to weaken American influence there and generally, both militarily and diplomatically. As to this second point, most of it is being accomplished by wrongheaded Bush policies and the Sunni insurgency. They don’t need to get involved in it. Some level of Iranian military aid and expertise to Shia groups on the other hand to prevent us from dominating them is not only likely it is predictable. It is also a fairly easy way for them to establish cred among Iraqi Shia and their leaders. That it creates a certain amount of pain for us is simply a bonus.
If you look at things this way, it helps explain why the Iranians are doing what they are doing and why they are doing it the way they are. They are not interested in turning Iraq into a surrogate military conflict with us or stabbing us in the back. They are pursuing their own policy objective which is to increase their influence in a troubled neighbor with a Shia majority and vast oil reserves.
The real story here, however, is not Iran but the Bush Administration. This is the story that the Times doesn’t cover and, by not doing so, all of its stories have an air of bias and incompleteness about them. For instance, the Times article fails to note that the evidence presented did nothing to bolster recent claims by the Bush White House of an al Quds involvement. As it has from the beginning, the Times continues to ignore the relative importance of the EFP issue which has accounted for less than 8% of American deaths in Iraq in the last 2 1/2 years (if you believe the government’s figures). For myself, I would be a lot more concerned about the other 92% but that is just me. Finally, there is the question of timing. The Times has occasionally mentioned that there has been a recent increase in EFP attacks (again the numbers are dubious) and it has, as it does in this article, mention the charge by critics that this is part of a build up in tensions in order to justify possible military strikes against Iran. Yet as I pointed out above this is a situation that has been known about for 2 1/2 years. The Times may not have the answers but its reporters should be asking the questions and they should not be taking the first simplistic response they get at gospel. That’s where critical thinking and investigation come in, two qualities which sad to say remain absent in the Times coverage of this issue.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02…..ref=slogin
Christy – The Bradblog article you link mentions that Armitage is Cheney’s man. It is the first time I’ve seen this mentioned.
Cheney’s daughter Elizbeth was once employed by Armitage’s company.
Sorry…I used the forbidden italics! OOPS! Promise it won’t happen again. Thanks FDL for everything you do! I’ll go to my corner for my time-out now. Maybe I should go back to work instead…Nah!
Just out of curiousity, when Pakistan signed the treaty with Waziristan, why didn’t the US speak up then about the situation? This isn’t new… but I guess now it’s convenient to fill the Media (versus all the other things out there that need close scrutiny)
Will this marine be counted as an Iraq occupation death?
I think not.
Mason @
74
Wow! That is really good!
Hugh: interesting & worthwhile post.
Some more reasons for Iran to be involved in Iraq:
Iraq once started a war with them.
Iraq has Kurds, too, and an independent Kurdistan in the former Northern Iraq will be a lit fuse for Iran, Turkey, and Syria. A Kurdish Northwest could become Iranian in name only, like the Pakistani Tribal Areas.
Iran has a massive oil problem. The southwest part of the country is where all the oil is, and it is the Arab minority part of the country. There is a big wall of mountains between it and the rest of Persian Iran. Arabs consider themselves to be “first-class” Muslims and the rest of the world “second-class”. In fact Shiite holy sites are in Iraq, not Saudi Arabia.
So, Iran is in terrible danger of losing its oil territories to a Southern Iraq-based Shia splinter state. This alone is a fine reason why Iran needs alternative energy sources like nuclear power. And also a fine reason to dominate the resurgent Iraqi Shia.
raven @
106
It is probably too late to thank Raven and QuentinCompson in these comments, but I do thank you. And I will convey your thanks to my so. He was in the Marines and 2 weeks from getting out when he deployed to Iraq in the first wave. He is now attending AA (thanks Jane for suggesting it), private counseling and has gone back to college. He came home alive with all of his limbs, but still anxious, sometimes depressed and short tempered. Thank goodness not binge drinking any more and has met a wonderful woman.