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I'm at the courthouse right now and so are a lot of others, but nobody really knows anything other than that a verdict is coming at some point and it's as likely to come today as any day. Libby was here for lunch with his wife, Ted Wells and Barbara Comstock (Libby and Wells had cheeseburgers — Libby reportedly paid). I saw Jeffress earlier in the lunchroom too, eating separately. Wonder if the Jeffress/Wells spat continues?
There are photographers camped out at the parking lot entrance, big media circus equipment everywhere. I can't imagine it will resound with the profound implications of Ana Nicole Smith, but a verdict one way or the other will probably make some kind of blip on the news radar.
For real dose of stupid, read the Joe Lieberman Weekly's take on the Libby case. Why do people insist on writing about the story when they haven't even bothered to familiarize themselves with the basics? (Hint: a bit disingenous to wrap yourself in the First Amendment to protect your sources when you've, you know, already outed them to the very investigators you're now trying to obstruct. It's a rather remedial bit of information and it's publicly available.)
And in the mean time, entertain yourself with a live performance by our good friend Lou Reed of "Waiting For the Man" from Paris in 1974.
My fingernails are getting shorter and shorter.
Anna Nicole who?
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Fitz??
FITZ!
and no, I really can’t read about stupid Joe today…
Guess everybody’s still at Donita’s.
Stupid Joe is just too stupid.
gets on my nerves.
How about a little Talking Heads – “Crosseyed and Painless”?
Interesting about the continuing bad blood and that Libby has been seen hanging with Wells. Of the two I would think Wells would be in the doghouse. But what do I know?
it is not Cheney’s fault that he’s reckless, has no respect for no one but himself and knows no boundaries. Maybe he hasn’t always been that way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumphead_syndrome
maybe he wasn’t always that way- it could be the result of all his bypass operations.
Madness! Madness!
OldCoastie @ 2
Neither can I. I think it bugs him more to be ignored than to instigate outrage, anyway.
But the question of where to bury Anna Nicole has global implications. Really!
With no word at this hour, I have to think it’s going to roll over to Monday at least. Argh!
oh, darn! there goes that Jeopordy song in my head again…
Babs should know better than to let her team split up in the lunchroom. I’m surprised she’d let that happen. Her 1-2 punch at WaPo this past weekend was a showcase in media control. She’s slipping as the week drags on.
Will @ 7. People older even than I tell me that any heart op makes one short-tempered, but multiple ones…. Watch Out! Downright nasty!
Jane!
Be careful out there. You’re a treasure. ;->
If there is cosmic justice, and the jury was paying attention when Cathy Martin revealed the Friday afternoon news dump (of which we “West Wing” watchers already knew), maybe the jury is just hanging in the jury room, so they don’t give the administration the gift of a Friday afternoon verdict. But then, I still believe in Santa Claus.
Fitz!
LOU!
KanyeEast @
5
the bass line lead-in of the Lou Reed song sounds like “Take Me to the River”
littleheadprop dropped in on donita’s thread.
very cute
Let’s all remember that a Monday verdict will make it more difficult for the MSM to bury this.
Sparkatus @ 10
People, there’s like an hour and a half before the jury closes shop for the day. We don’t know how close they are to finishing, but if they’re anywhere near it, then 1.5 hours is plenty of time to finish up and announce the verdict.
JANE for heavans sake go say Hi to Pay.. He’s sitting in the hallway with his laptop
Jane!
I, too, have had enough of stupid joe for the day. Anna Nicole woulda made a better Senator.
I saw Jane already. We spoke for a minute. She had to take care of something. We’re all good.
What’s the mechanism for deciding whether a given felon goes to band camp or to a maximum security penitentiary?
How are pardon powers distributed? What can a governor pardon? Does the mayor of DC have any such powers since the district isn’t in any state?
Pins and needles, baby! I was hoping for a Friday news dump and took the afternoon off. No, I’m not so addicted as to admit to doing it for a verdict. No, really…..
annabanana @ 21
in a blue shirt, looking at you
nevermind
All this talk of casting the movie caused me to free associate in a direction I’m not sure I’m proud of.
In any event, somehow this guy reminds me of this guy.
Jane…… it is a spot unkind to put up the sainted Lou after the teen-aged garagistas from Donita, hein!
Surely it would be wonderful to listen to the F— wits blabbing on Sunday after a Guilty! on Friday afternoon, and not a Friday Dump at all?
One advantage of Joe L turning officially Republican is that the MSM won’t be able to use him to make things look “bi-partisan.” If the MSM wants another conservative Democrat to spin, may I humbly suggest Jim Webb. *cough*
OldCoastie @ 11
Well, you could turn on the Weather Channel or something. It’s looking interesting out there. Nothing on the Doppler, though.
dab_from_CT @ 18
She is watching me climb the walls here. And she wants to go tothe mall. I worked till almost midnight last night and spent the beginning of the week in DC. She is off from school this week for winter break and has hardly seen me, so she came to wotk with me today.
I took her with me to court this morning. She liked that, but hangng around my office watching me compulisicvely “refresh” and jump ten feet in the air every time the phone rings is no fun for her.
JGabriel @ 20
Good point. If the verdict is going to come today, the odds would be in favor of an end-of-day announcement.
I would guess that juries usually reach a verdict at the end of the day. It just intuitively makes sense psychologically that the jury would fill up any given day’s worth of time allotted to them before making an announcement.
the anti-thesis @ 26
But not in a stalkerish way.
I finally downloaded The Google Earth
lost in flying all over
I’m spending my waiting time sending pissy emails to http://www.dabrams@msnbc.com .
Not a mention of the Libby trial. They could be spending the time on details of this case. They are willfully staying away from this. Not even an “oh BTW, in that OTHER trial.”
presque vu @ 24
He will likely go to Camp Fed. The decisions mostly rest on how violent you are. Scooter may be dangerous, but he ain’t violent
ralphbon @ 27
You are soooo right!
Is there anyone here who is not at least a little bit in love with Ms Hamsher? If there is (someone who is not a little bit in love) you’re utterly mad!
In other news, Please, jury! Please, please, please, GUILTY!
I have a stoopid pardon question: if Libby’s convicted, and Bush pardons immediately, does that stop any appeal on the part of the gov’t? I assume it would, but would it also kill any future charges?
Obviously not an attorney, and somewhat embarrassed to ask such a question, but was curious.
David Baerwald @ 38
Well, I admit it, if I saw her in the hallway, I’d be a little starstruck, too.
“I’ve used The Google Earth…” – G. W Bush
looseheadprop @ 36
Oh, there’s all kinds of violence Scooter has his claws in–he did sign off on PNAC, after all. Like the rest of the neocon “brain” trust, he just doesn’t get the blood on his own suit.
Dr. Bong @ 41
So he could find his butt with both hands.
looseheadprop @ 36
…And plenty of time to develop new communications strategies.
;>)
Looseheadprop – I posted this on last thread, but then realized you had moved over. It is short, so I’ll repost-I’m interested in your thoughts on sentencing.
I am conflicted on that. First off, my experience is out here in the 9th Circuit, so I’m not sure on the guideline application tendencies in DC. If it comes down to sentencing, Libby did himself a world of good by not testifying. Most classic mitigating factors would also have to be given to Libby, and the fact that he torpedoed a Fed investigation is inherent in the charges. Aggravating would be damage to national security, but I’m not convinced the government would argue that with detail for obvious reasons. So, I say it with absolutely no real conviction, but I would not be surprised if there was a slight downward departure.
ive had cnn on in the background all day.
i dont think im exaggerating when i say not 5 minutes about the scooter trial.
ReneND @ 35
Don’t. That’s silly. There’s no reason for the networks to be covering this yet.
Once a verdict is reached, the MSM will be all over it. In the meantime, people are just going to flip away from it, seeing it as a lot of unresolved politico-legal jargon.
The ones anxious for a verdict are all here.
Dr. Bong @ 41
And not in a good way.
Jeez, I’m not getting anything done at work today…
David Baerwald @ 38
This isn’t THE David Baerwald, is it?
If so, I need to relay a message. You really, really need to play a show in Lawrence, KS. Your biggest fan on the planet lives there.
retirin’ in five @ 43
He couldn’t pour piss out of a boot with instructions printed on the heel.
looseheadprop @ 36
Or rather, he has other commit his violence for him, he wouldn’t want to bloody his own hands–just the limbs and lives of thousands of young men and women.
But by putting him in Club Fed, at least he won’t have access to the violent ones.
Why is the jury taking this long? Is there some reason they didn’t come back with a guilty verdict within 5 minutes? It sounds to me like they’re parsing a lot of irrelevant nonsense, and the country was done an injustice because the prosecution wasn’t allowed to describe the context of Libby’s charges. Look at the IIPA matter, from the Scottish Defense point of view: Libby is not charged with outing Plame, not because he’s innocent of it, but because his guilt isn’t proven. I think the jury is operating with the assumption that he’s affirmatively innocent of it, giving them a confusing set of facts, rather than that the prosecution chose not to pursue those charges. The presumption of innocence only extends to not throwing a guy in jail based on charges that are not proven. Stuff that’s probable but not proven can still be considered in weighing the certainty of other charges. That’s the whole point of jury deliberations, to weigh together a bunch of items that are uncertain, and reach a conclusion based on the summation of individually uncertain pieces of evidence all pointing the same way. As Mark Slackmeyer would say, guilty, guilty, guilty!
jayacoop @ 49
I asked this the other day, too. I suspect you have many fans here at FDL.
NewsClues @ 39
Yes, but there’s not going to be an immediate pardon. It would just totally piss off the intelligence community and create a shitstorm for Bush.
Most juries would want to wrap up their work at the end of a week, but it doesn’t look like we’ll have a verdict today.
Either there are some real differences of opinion in the jury room, or this is a real laid-back jury.
Spaniels insisting on a walk…
it’ll be my luck….
So, the day Anna Nicole died, I did an informal poll where I worked: how many military personnel have died in Iraq? No one could tell me. And who the flip is Anna Nicole Smith? (I seriously didn’t know) EVERYONE knew something about her.
I was thinking of this as I watch whatevernewBREAKINGNEWS there is about this woman’s body. It’s just disillusioning.
It would be karmic justice for a verdict today, just to see the heads of the Heathers explode about How To Look Important about the Libby trial while itching to keep talking about Anna Nicole.
mc @ 40
She is quite beautiful. Very ethereal.
As if the simple act of waiting isn’t bad enough….My b/f just called asking if there was any word. LOL, he’s cute.
~sigh~
Are we there yet?
Dr. Bong @ 41
“…to find my Paraguayan (non-extradictable) ranch.”
urban pirate @ 46
(Gomer Pyle voice) Soo-prize! Soo-prize! Soo-prize!
Jane,
Are you sure team Libby was eating cheeseburgers or were they sleezeburgers?
And, while your’e waiting at the courthouse, here’s a little blurb today about LIEberman. UGH!
I want to know what happens too, but isn’t it better if they come out with the verdict on Monday?
I mean, Bush routinely releases embarrassing news on Friday to minimize damage.
Jane, Jane, Jane
Lou Reed “Waiting for My Man”?
You already were the coolest. By doing stuff like this, you are just rubbing it in our faces at this point.
: )
Excellent work, all around, regardless of verdict.
urban pirate @ 46
I have too..you’re not exaggerating. I have not heard a word since 12:30pm….that is until just now, Wolf Blizer just mentioned they are standing by for a verdict in his teaser for the Situation Room as I was typing this.
David Baerwald @ 38
Get in line, buster.
none @ 52
Take three deep breaths. The jury will be back when they’re back. They’re doing their job.
revmama @ 61
“well, gooooolly, Sgt. Carter!”
urban pirate @ 46
I turned on Court TV. They give something about every 1/2 hour.
Nothing new of course, but it’s nice that they acknowledge the trial.
Looseheadprop – forgot one factor, I don’t think Libby would exhibit contrition (if he was inclined to do that in the least, he would be cooperating at that point) so that would be an aggravating factor.
Bowie: “John, I’m only blogging”
Folks
JUst because they’ve taken 2.5 days (almost) doesn’t mean anything bad–yet. Jeralyn first predicted a week (though she backed off that after missing the most impressive part of Fitz’ close and the freaky breakdown of Wells), Christy predicted 3.5 days.
At the very least, they’re going to want to look over the evidence. There’s a lot of it, and it’s prety complex.
If they were all set on not guilty, we’d be done by now. BUt we’re not yet even at the point where the timing looks like dissension, IMO. It is perfectly sensible given the amount of evidence.
dab_from_CT @ 58
And smart as a whip. Bit feisty though. ;)
Poor littleprop. My daughter has been through that many times, too, tapping toes and pacing waiting for me. Bought her a ZipIt instant messaging device to keep her busy during those slow times when she has to wait for me, and to get her off the computer when I need to work.
#47 Not.
I believe I have the right to point out their excessive Anna coverage when there is another verdict hanging in the balance. And I don’t believe their coverage of that verdict will be wall-to-wall.
The jury isn’t taking long. Seriously. There is a lot of evidence to go through, 5 counts to discuss.
We’re three days in? That is nothing to concern yourself with.
JB2 @ 55
I think these people are acutely aware of the broader importance of this trial (beyond the weight of determining Libby’s future), and want to make sure their decision has been utterly thought through and is truly “beyond a reasonable doubt.”
_
TJ @ 37
Um, maybe he IS an alien and I was wrong about the gaydar thing.
Then again, how about my favorite martian:
http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Mptv/1095/5729_0004.jpg
that’s Bill Bixby, on the left, the non-martian
creepy
bmaz @ 70
I wouldn’t put it past him to shed some crocodile tears, but I don’t think they’d have any credibility by that point.
NewsClues @ 57
If only Anna Nicole Smith had been having an affair with Scooter – THEN there’d be coverage!
JB2@55
You’ve just described my worst nightmare–that there might be one or two on the jury who ‘don’t get it’, or who are stubbornly clinging to the ‘any doubt’ rather than the ‘reasonable doubt’ measuring stick.
S.O.S.
mc @ 22
Anna Nicole would still make a better senator…
I’m still trying to figure out how to hook up an air raid siren to this place so when the verdict does come, I can drop the wrenches and come running.
emptywheel @ 72
In other words, they’re weighing the evidence, which is exactly what they should be doing. The purpose of a trial is not to satisfy our desire for a certain outcome.
mc @ 53
Did you get an answer?
I actually wasn’t talking about myself. I love his stuff, but I have a friend in Lawrence who is, in fact, his biggest fan on the planet.
For your continued reading entertainment while we’re on hold, check out John Dean’s and David Swanson’s posts at http://www.smirkingchimp.com
Swanson discusses a move by Washington State Senator Eric Oemig, who introduced an impeachment petition in the state senate. Hearings begin March 1st. It’s a petition directed to the U.S. House of Representatives asking them to start impeachment proceedings. Apparently, if any member of the House accepts the state’s petition, Speaker Pelosi will be required to start impeachment proceedings. Eight hundred people attended a forum at the Washington State Legislature today to listen to speakers Ray McGovern, Elizabeth de la Vega, and Dave Lindorff speak about impeachment.
Dean’s article is about the U.S. Supreme Court and what the Senate should do if one of the liberal judges retires before the 2008 election and Bush submits another Bork.
The other day, Christy listed many ways we could pass the time while we wait. One suggestion was that we listen to John Coltrane. Immediately, I thought of the tune “You Are Too Beautiful” played by Trane and sung by Hartman. The lyrics seem so
appropriate for her and the equisite Team of Jane, Marcy, Jeralyn, etal
“You are too beautiful
my dear, to be true
and I am a fool for beauty …”
U-Tube only offers “You Are Too Beautiful” by Hammond not Hartman and Trane
The video includes the band warming up. Be patient. The tune and lyrics are lovely.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_f4oY8cy9c
A nice video of Hartman is an album entitled “Johnny Hartman for Trane”
in which Johnny Hartman sings – “What is there to say”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fodSQZPVIM
Christy also asked us to list some of our favorite U-Tube videos. Here is one of my all time favorites, and it is just right for this week. Since Tuesday was the last day of the Carnaval in Rio de Janeiro and the day of Mardi Gras, it brought to mind one of my favorite tunes, movies, and U-Tube videos.
First, there is the delightful end of the movie where a boy plays his magic guitar, just like Orpheus, to make the sun rise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0jZRkFtksI
The trailer for the movie is here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkxGkL7o9xk
Another member of the FDL Varsity Team suggested listening to Celia Cruz. I apologize that I can’t be sure I remember
who suggested Celia Cruz. Nevertheless, here is another way to celebrate the carnaval. Check out Celia Cruz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lArGoRhFr4E
Redshift @ 82
Joe! Joe! He’s our man! If he can’t do it, no body can!
EvilDrPuma – you have to do far more than shed a few self serving tears to obtain the benefit of a contrition allowance under the guidelines, so thats a no go.
Jane—
Two threads back people were chiming in with opinions about your being in the courtroom v. mediaroom. Just wanted to let you know there’s a lot of support for your being in the courtroom for the verdict.
Repost from a couple of days ago, but relevant to Jane’s post, and since I’m still looking for an executive producer…
“Anna Nicole Smith’s partner/agent/attorney Howard K. Stern announced today at a break from court proceedings that, in a departure to what he called a “serious role where she will get to use her acting chops”, the actress and former Playboy Playmate will play the title role of Addie Bundrun in the film version of William Faulkner’s classic As I Lay Dying.
everhopeful @ 80: “If only Anna Nicole Smith had been having an affair with Scooter – THEN there’d be coverage! “
lolol Excellent point! Damn you, Scooter!
When the movie comes out, I vote that Jane plays Jane, Christy plays Christy and Marcy plays Marcy.
Who needs surrogates, when you’ve got that much class and beauty aavailable. Not to mention brains galore.
And it would be an easy title to paraphraze, all about the Cheney gang.
Call it “Natural Born Liars.”
Jane is hot.
emptywheel @ 72
Of course and this is what we want a jury to do. Weigh all the evidence, make sure they understand what they are looking at, etc.
Some of us are just really impatient.
LHP – You should be prepared to discuss an “Allen Charge.”
Only kidding.
can someone please post the 5, (i believe its 5), charges libby is facing & their 2-3 sub charges? this way i can fantasize about what the jury is doing accurately, rather then bite my nails. ;)
(sorry if this has already been posted. i’ve been reading FDL from morning till after midnite since the trial began & i might have missed it during a rare bleary-eyed moment.)
Maybe we could make Scooter wear one of these (if convicted) until he gets his trip:
Eye of Sauron Theft Protection Device. Would you mess with someone with a ring of purple fire around him?
Bustednuckles @
83
Try the Air Raid Siren Widget!
Pat_AlexVA @ 94
About ten thousand people, including Jane, just heard that.
ROFLMAO
Was Lieberman a tailgunner too?
urban pirate @ 73
Jane, sorry to be talking about you in the third person. Feel free to tell us to STFU. *g*
[Mod Note; Please don’t quote this comment, it will bust the margins. Thank you.]
I don’t think its appropriate to comment on a persons looks whether they are beautiful or ugly or in between. If this place turns into a ‘cult of personality’, I won’t come here anymore. It’s the ideas and the actions that matter, so leave the high school comments out of it.
Anti-thesis @78
Your link was broken; I think this is the photo you were going for…and you’re on to something.
Cheney’s bad attitude was inserted at birth by a proctologist. The bypasses were to get around his concience – had to be, he doesn’t have a heart.
moe @ 103
Well. . DON’T go to gabbly, then.. for sure.
Leisureguy!
I did three posts explaining the charges:
The Obstruction Charge
The Two Russert Charges
The Two Cooper Charges
NewsClues @ 92
I’m tellin ya, Anna is/was not SCooter’s “type”. He’s an Alien, or, if not an alien, then his wife is a skirt, or a beard, whatever you call her, I’m just not buying it. He’s very swishy.
Not that there’s anything wrong with that goes here…
but that oughta get Extra! Extra! Extra!!! flocking to Prettyman.
emptywheel @ 108
Thank you
Oh, and your book rocks!
urban pirate @ 46
The local newscast at noon here in DC had a very accurate quick summary of the case. It demonstrated the lie of the network nitwit who claimed they aren’t covering it because you can’t explain it in thirty seconds, and I had an epiphany.
It’s not that you can’t explain it in thirty seconds, it’s that you can’t explain it in thirty seconds without stating clearly that the administration is accused of a crime. That’s what they’re not willing to do. The reason the network bubbleheads find it hard to explain is because they’re not willing to just say “allegedly” like they would with any other trial; instead they think they have to mention all the wingnut obfuscations.
Most junkie anthems don’t use the indefinite article. I saw Lou in Boston at the Paradise in 1979. This show included a harrowing rendition of “Heroin.”
Waving a big ol’ hand at all the fdl’ers.
ralphbon @ 104
D’OH, my html bad
NewsClues @ 57
Same here. I lead a very protected life — no TV except for Curb your Enthusiasm, and I didn’t know who the hell she was — I thought she might be married to one of the Beatles or something. Then I found out she was a hooker who killed herself. I felt bad about that, but don’t understand why she rates more than a lot of other women in her sad circumstances.
KanyeEast @
5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0odYPIgEKc
annabanana @ 106
I could be wrong, but I think the attraction to Fitz is his brilliance, not his looks.
mc @ 107
Dammit, that’s my line!
:-)
Reposted from pror thread:
Esteemed EPUniverse@96 – bite your tounge.
Pat_AlexVA @ 94
spoken like a true geek hunched in a wifi’d hallway. But she’s on the phone, has something to take care of. Sounds like a producer to me. Just walk up to her and say you’ve got a script with Jane Fonda and her daughter Uma Thurman on a heist to steal the lost OVP hard drives.
Methinks that would normally get her attention.
(thanks from all of us for driving down, Pat, ready on the keys. Or did you just use your helicopter?(
line from some B movie somewhere – “it wasn’t time for killing, so I was killing time”:
my contempt for Joe Lieberman is renewed daily.
I’m a proud, heterosexual female….and I love Jane and Marcy like crazy. I’m so glad this trial could happen (would it not be grand for this to be the beginning of the end of all the king’s men), but also to put a face with a name of all these amazing/dedicated few who have taken us with them into the courtroom from the onset. Where else could we get even a hint of real news on the Libby trial? Certainly not on anyone’s TV screen.
Rock on, Sister/Girls!!!
OFG!! Nice to see you.
Agh. I have to do something else, can’t even concentrate on contract work right now. Maybe I’ll break down and do laundry and clean the kitchen.
I know better than this, too, that’s what is so aggravating. Grown adult feeling like a kid on Christmas Eve; worse than waiting outcome of primary or election because I can’t watch the numbers mounting in one direction of the other.
Alright, out of here. Somebody call me if there’s a change of status. Yell loud, can’t hear over the washer and dryer.
I’ll agree with Jeralyn on week, even if she later hedged. That seems about right given the amount of evidence and the type, and number, of individual crimes.
“White collar” type crimes typically don’t involve open and shut type evidence like a surveillance camera video of the guys face while robbing the convenience store or fingerprints. It’s usually more complicated then that (no matter what we think the evidence proves).
And as for whether the jury understands the broader import of the case, and whether that might affect the time taken to make a decision? Personally, I don’t think they are going to take the “broader picture” into account. But I do think they will take their jobs seriously, b/c deciding to convict anyone of a crime is a serious matter, and I think juries understand that regardless. Not that juries always do take their task seriously, but in fed court I think they do.
Dr. Bong @ 118
Can I share it? I was there that day, too. ;-)
Or maybe I’ll just use moeguy!
knut wicksell @ 115
I don’t think anybody could explain that. You either go along with the cult of celebrity or you don’t. Unsurprisingly, most folks who post here are a little more concerned with issues of substance and legitimate public concern than they are with the rotting cadaver of a former gold-digging Playboy model.
knut @ 115:
Cuz she’s wealthy and blonde. Blondes get coverage, wealthy blondes who were playmates get quadruple the coverage. Edward R. Murrow is spinning in his grave.
dab_from_CT @
18
Thanks for the heads-up, Dab! I just went back to check it out.
my, we are a nervous little bunch this afternoon… aren’t we?
OldCoastie @ 130
I’M NOT NERVOUS!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry…sorry…(crawls back into corner to chew nails).
OT: CNN Bidenteefies on Wolf Blitzer’s beard.
bmaz @ 70
He’s may not be sentenced before he exhausts his appeals. Plenty of time to develope some contrition
OldCoastie @ 130
How could ya tell?
~twitch~
jayacoop @ 131
Now we get to find out if the Wilsons are still lurking. That’s Wilson-bait if I ever heard it. (don’t kill me)
Welcome, littleprop! (If you’re still around)
The great thing here at FDL is you get to pick your own name . . . so give it some thought.
OldCoastie @
130
Shush! We’re waiting!
It’s coming any minute now…
looseheadprop @ 119
littleprop
Meeting your mom was one of the really cool parts of the trial.
Sorry skiing sucked. I keep meaning to make it out to visit my bro in CO–they’ve had a great year this year, and my skis have been sitting in his condo closet collecting dust for a few years. But I went to the trial instead. Waiting for mr emptywheel to be ready to put up with my family again, too.
Well, your mom’s name is pretty damn cool, too (I used to be an outside center before I played ultimate, though I thought scrummies were much nicer than backs, who were generally kind of self-centered).
You’ll figure out your cool name–I think one usually just stumbles on it.
To emptywheel:
As a typical American slaving under a crushing workload, I want to extend a profound appreciation for all you have done in this one small slice of this criminal regime. I lack the time or what is left of my energy to fill the void left by the corporate media large enough to vanish the entire middle class of this nation.
I wish you great success because I know that is not what you sought. I am so very proud of your efforts, and team fdl, coupled with Arianna at Huffpo, to give voice to the outrage.
Thank you very much.
Methinks we’re getting close to SOL on a verdict today…
btw – I don’t think Scooter will get his pardon… shrubya needs to cut Shooter loose and I can’t think of a better way to do it…
bmaz – I was – an lawyer joke for lawyers. I believe a week or so sounds about right, and I think the gov’t put on a very strong beyond a reasonable doubt case and the defense really didn’t do much (if anything), b/c it had nothing to work with. I’ve said all along I think he will be convicted, and nothing I’ve seen in the trial changes my opinion – in fact, what I’ve seen reinforces it.
Sure he could be acquited, there could be a hung jury, but it wasn’t the way to bet before the trial, and it’s certainly not the way to bet now. If I were gonna hedge, it would be for 4 out of 5, although since inconsistent verdicts have always annoyed me, I’d rather not see it.
emptywheel @ 72
Best to see it this way: how long has it taken Marcy, Jane, Christy, Swopa, eRiposte, et al. to put together a timeline and assess the evidence based upon the stuff we knew before the trial began? The jurors are having to do that, without the classic single-mindedness of the Plameologist.
I worry about it going into the weekend, just because it allows Fred Hiatt to put together an A-1 Babs Comstock special that’s visible from every newspaper stand in the District. Not because it’s a case where the facts take ten minutes to lay out in front of the jury during deliberations. Because it’s not.
Oxide @ 136
LMAO
I think you’re probably safe.
Crazy Horse @ 60
“…to find my Paraguayan (non-extradictable) ranch.”
Seriously, is ir really non-extradictable?
to U.S.? to The Hague?
everhopeful @ 141
We’re an hour and 12 minutes away from knowing the answer.
Redshift @ 111
Amen. On NPR today some “journalist” from USA Today tried the – it’s just too confusing, everyone has different memories, it’s just inside the beltway gossip spiel to explain to a caller what the Libby trial is about. Fortunately Ignatius from WaPo set the record straight in about two minutes – very accurately and susinctly, emphasizing a number of times what an important case it was.
The “it’s too confusing meme” is a wingnut talking point.
Evil Parallel Universe @ 76
EPU, did you see my post reply the other night. Although Christy never a got a chance to forward your email, she didn’t ahve to. I figured it out and told her my (correct) guess the next morning.
I am such a fan of your Dad’s. Truly.
Dr. Bong @ 133
I’m surprised the MSM hasn’t picked up on his connection to Al Qaeda…
…BIn laDEN
Hey gang. Nice to see you OFG.
As far as the “isn’t Jane hot” stuff, I would gladly buy a “Women of FDL” calender. Tastefully done, of course. Such a concentration of intellect and beauty. Oh my.
emptywheel @ 139: “Sorry skiing sucked. I keep meaning to make it out to visit my bro in CO–they’ve had a great year this year, and my skis have been sitting in his condo closet collecting dust for a few years. But I went to the trial instead. Waiting for mr emptywheel to be ready to put up with my family again, too.”
The snow here in CO is stunning, even for CO. It just keeps on coming. I’m not getting kickbacks for the Chamber of Commerce, but even jaded natives are sucked into the vortex of the deep snow. Come on out!
I could use some China Cat Sunflower, I Know You Rider, One More Saturday Night, Uncle John’s Band, Ripple, and a long long version of Stella Blue wrapped up with some really hot Good Lovin.
Elliott @ 146
“…to find my Paraguayan (non-extradictable) ranch.”
Seriously, is ir really non-extradictable?
to U.S.? to The Hague?
Paraguay will extradite, but only if no death penalty is on the table. So they would extradite to The Hague, but it would depend on the case for an extradition to the U.S.
Oilfieldguy @ 113
Hey, OFG! Where are you today?
Looseheadprop@134 – would he not be sentenced before appeal to consolidate any potential issues, and then resentenced after exhaustion of appeals to account for any deviation necessary as a result of the appeal process?
Coffee, please… DECAF!!!!
:-)
OldCoastie @ 142
The North Korea agreement must seem somewhat ominous from Dick’s POV.
“But… but we need the enemies! We need the FEAR!”
mc @
40
I am suprised you haven’t used my handle. ;-)
*xyz @ 147
Oh – I thought it shut down at 5:00 during deliberations
tommy yum @ 151
No. No. An “Older Babes That Hang Out at FDL” calendar.
NewsClues @ 128
Actually, she may be nailing a famous former newscaster as we speak. MSNBC earlier today repeatedly referred to Anna Nicole’s lover as Howard K. Smith.
Preview is my friend. Can’t edit. Somebody please close bold tag?
*slinks away… back to lurk mode*
:(
It seems like it is getting awfully late… I hate the idea of having to wait a weekend with no verdict. On the flip side, if we get a verdict next week, maybe Cheney will be in town to speak to reporters? (Yeah, that’ll be the day…)
Evil Parallel Universe @ 96
We could do that now. Or I can give the ladies a post for Monday morning. I should have put it in the Jury Nullification post
OldCoastie @ 142
Pardon or not, Cheney is there to stay.
Bush & Cheney go together like Squeaky Fromme & Charles Manson. Only prison can separate them.
NewsClues @ 152
That’s what I hear. Maybe the snow will last well into April and I’ll make it out for slush.
Though I’ll be really appalled–my 6 year old nephew has been in racing school all winter. So now even he will be a hugely better skier than me.
OldCoastie @ 130
Could a chorus of Pups remind me what it is that we’re waiting for? ISTR i had my glasses on when i went to the kitchen, but i didn’t understand why the frying pan was glowing red. Was it something about stopping the Decline and Fall of the Amurkan Empire in 10X mo?
EvilDrPuma @ 154
Seriously, is ir really non-extradictable?
to U.S.? to The Hague?
Paraguay will extradite, but only if no death penalty is on the table. So they would extradite to The Hague, but it would depend on the case for an extradition to the U.S.
Thanks EvilDr.Puma!
EPU@143 – Agreed. Count 3 the one count I see some possibility for a NG, but if it were me, I would hammer him on that too.
Bustednuckles @
100
Your point is? ;-)
LHP – I think he would have a hard time post conviction getting any point reductions for contrition, even if cooperates. The best I could see happening, if at all, is that the gov’t might agree to not make any sentencing recommendation if he cooperated. I’ve always viewed it as the gov’t is not going to give the defendant a second chance to deal – they had that chance pre trial or even during the trial.
Of course, he needs to be convicted for us to find out.
emptywheel @ 139
I think this is rugby-speak. it’s a game I know little about (years of soccer parenting are hard to shake). punaise jr. plays in his first rugby game today on Treasure Island. I made sure he has our updated health plan info with him.
EW — One of us in another way! You are even more wonderful….. I was a No 8 and later wing in the Army and for my pub. I am old enough still to be amazed at ladies playing the game and daunted when I see you all playing.
On the lame “bad memories” canard:
When you have a bad memory of “x” you say “I cannot recall” etc. You don’t make detailed affirmative statements or unconditional denials.
_
urban pirate @
73
;-) Sucks that we can’t use actual smileys
[Mod Note; Please don’t quote this comment, it will bust the margins. Thank you.]
zig alert!
littleprop,
Your mom’s great tutorials have helped all of us so much during this trial. I am so thankful for her willingness to do this for everyone.
I hope you’ll get to go to the mall this weekend, too.
-S
(no kids, but remember being dragged off to the mall by my teenage niece…)
emptywheel @ 167: “That’s what I hear. Maybe the snow will last well into April and I’ll make it out for slush.”
Nah, February is our snowiest month, followed by March. And I swear, I have no connection to the Chamber of Commerce. This is one year that it’ll still be good skiing in April.
OK
I’m done
jury not done
see ya’ll next time
thanks for the wait fun
PseudoNC 144 -
I do’t think Fred Hiatt’s jury nullification attemps will have any effect this weekend.
The jury by now have developed their own timelines and weighed all the evidence. They are deep in the weeds by now. They have pretty much made up their minds, but want to sleep over it over the weekend. The thing is set in concrete; it just needs some curing time.
Verdict by Monday afternoon.
Lets all remember, FDL has set some high standards with regard to covering this trial.
Lets not turn FDL into the same circus that you see on TV. Jane would be the same wonderful person if she were ugly as a church mouse. So, lets return our attention to the issue Jane got up out of a hospital bed to cover.
Thank you FDL for this important milestone.
maunga @ 175
One of the proudest moment of my college career (where, I believe, I was coached by the same guy who coached Fitz) was when an old alumni rugger sent me a note (as captain) saying that we were playing the game with the teamwork and crispness with which it was supposed to be played. Said he had been very skeptical of women’s rugby, but that settled it for him.
One of the other proudest moments was when a strong feminist said to me, “You’ve made of the rugby team what every other women’s group on campus has tried to do and failed.” Pretty cool, that.
I am in my own quite abode today, and in a exceptionally good mood. If all goes as planned, at the close of the month I can put fdl on my payroll. Naturally, I would expect permanent recognition as a sidebar, something like “servers greased by Big Oil” or some shit like that.
Just kidding, of course.
LHP – I did see your post, and posted a thanks (and will say thanks again), and also sent another email via CHS to amke sure you had the right EPU Sr. and hopefully you’ll get that one soon enough, but if you have the last name right, then there is only one, at least in NY.
I really was joking about the Allen charge – another reason why I thinkt he rules are seriously against the accused.
Moe at 103;
Lighten up, friend.
And don’t quit this place for such a trivial reason.
Blogs that stay totally on-thread inevitably lose readership. Many people enjoy the OT interplay, others get impatient with it, but if you refuse to join in, you miss some of the most important, cutting-edge internet experience available right now.
Live with the trivia, just scroll past your disapproval moments, also keep in mind sometimes it is really very thinly disguised wisdom, but only if you have the depth of understanding to see past the superficial meaning.
If ever there was a blog full of multiple entendres, its FDL. And often, each of those multiples means a great deal on its own merits.
I call that efficiency of language.
And there’s a lot of wisdom hiding so sardonically in the snark, at times I am overwhelmed and entertained with the genius of it, I mean that snarklessly.
But, definitely, stay off of Gabbly, I was there a while back, the lone male lost in a bevy of man-hungry, semi-grey-haired lady bloggers, and it wasn’t pretty…
But it was funny, and what’s wrong with that?
Infotainment…
I’ll log back on to Gabbly see whether they quit talking about Fitz’ physique and changed the subject to something more akin to a legal- isue question.
If I’m not back in an hour, call the President!
looseheadprop @ 36
It’s actually a combination of factors that determine institutional placement within BOP. You’re right, violence is a determining factor. Length of sentence is a big factor. While, there are many folks in minimum security camps who are serving a chunk of time (60 months), it’s common to start people off “behind the fence” in a low security facility and allow them to earn a position in the camp.
Club Fed is a bit of a misnomer anymore. The camps aren’t bad; however, they are not all that spectacular, either. You enjoy many more freedoms than behind the fence, but it’s still time. You’re still required to work some job (in support of the institution).
BobbyG @ 175
true, but a bit late…the jury has it, our opinion means nothing right now
I am personally writing my scripts for both scenarios
Elliott @ 146
“…to find my Paraguayan (non-extradictable) ranch.”
Seriously, is ir really non-extradictable?
to U.S.? to The Hague?
As i reported in a thread some days ago, the extradition treaty with Paraguay does not allow for political crimes or prosecution with a “political motive.” See Article IV.
bmaz @ 156
It could go that way. It all depends on what motions are made and what the jude wants to do. MArtha Stewart ASKED be sentenced so she could get cracking on serving her sentence before her appelate briefs were even written.
I’m trying to put myself in the position of the jury- tho I’ve never been on one. But, it sounds like from the snippets I’ve read they are personalities who would be the extra careful type. And, for the lawyers out there, is there any way that jury actions could be important in terms of appeal? If so, that specter has got to be hanging over them- they can’t have missed references to it. FWIW, I say Tuesday afternoon at the earliest- maybe Wed. morning after they’ve slept on it.
BobbyG @ 176
Great point. Raising a more general one. Why did Libby speak at all? Is there a penalty for simply refusing to answer questions at a GJ? Is it that oath thing about promising to tell the whole truth? Would refusing to answer questions result in jail time, like contempt?
I just had a total tinfoil hat encouter in the courthouse today. Very bizarre exchange with someone… Not really sure how to characterize it.
punaise @ 122
I’ve been waiting for you to say that
tommy yum @ 151
Tommy! I was so glad to hear that Esten! has gotten back to school. Love you, thanks for all you do, too.
Pat_AlexVA @ 194
How so?
“the lone male lost in a bevy of man-hungry, semi-grey-haired lady bloggers, and it wasn’t pretty”
No. It wasn’t me.
Jacqrat @ 196
Thanks! I almost didn’t dare dream that such normalcy could be regained. I’m over the moon.
You’re a sweetie.
dab_from_CT @ 195
I’ve been having trouble recruiting Anita Bryant to chirp “A day without Liebercontempt is like a day without sunshine.”
Here’s something truly amazing, Pavarotti & James Brown.
Enjoy your weekend. bonne nuit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XQfWAfJvhA
bmaz – Sentencing. They really don’t like to delay that. I would figure 3-4 months max. Fed. judges are graded on their “efficiency” in sort of thing. No doubt Libby will put together his own, voluminous, pre-sentencing report, but that still has to be done within the usual time frames.
Mason @ 153
Amen. Morning Dew encore.
JEP @ 186
JEP, c’mon back, we’ll try to keep it down to a dull roar…
We love you, too!
-S
Well, started by talking about corruption, but went into how she was surveiled by the government, mail opened, court cases opened, court cases filed but files removed — with no trace of ever being filed.
perris @ 189
I was just referring to the typical and tiresome wingut / MSM apology that this case is about nothing more than everone’s “fallible memories.” Scooter made numerous detailed, affirmative statements under oath that got him charged. Lame to now be spinning them as “bad memory.”
_
Evil Parallel Universe @ 202
Do you suppose Shooter will vouch for his sense of civic responsibility?
emptywheel @ 196
But please give it a try.
Jacqrat @ 195
Indeedy. I have a 6yo son, and have been praying like crazy for you guys.
emptywheel @ 183
OMG, she plays Ruby too???! I am going off to a corner now to “THUD”.
k, I have to cave and do errands. Here’s hoping for a verdict!
gaspard @ 200
Zut! Sorry! they removed it!!
moe @ 103
Moe, with all due respect, I believe you have missed something. The comments that you refer to are not “high school comments” but simply extremely brief comments to ease the load on the system. Underneath those brief comments is a deep expression of gratitude for the exceptional work that has been done by the FDL Team. Their work has required not just dedication, unlimited energy, and top notch brains, but also a most impressive way of expressing their ideas. Don’t overlook the fact that the most important sex organ is the brain. Thus you should recognize that the FDL First Team Gals are sexy, brilliant, and also generous in sharing there ideas and perspective. Their physical beauty is simply frosting on the cake that enhances the beauty that flows from their ideas and their ability to express them with clarity.
Pat @ 182
Of for goodness sake.
Jane is who Jane is – the whole package. I think you’re lecturing to a lot of old timers here. And I think there is still room for some levity and personal exchange.
It was all over the map. Corruption in Texas, Iraq, Harriet Meirs, Roberts – talking about their ties to Bush. She mentioned something about Edith Jones, hiding court cases. Rigged case assignment. She was talking for maybe 20 minutes? Iraq, bugging her office, her phone.
EW – I’m sitting in the hallway on the first floor, and she walks right up and here I am stuck.
For the Cliff Notes of this trial, see “A Fish Called Wanda.”
Otto: What was that middle thing?
I’ve been home from work since 3:00, no nervous breakdown as of yet. But if I pull any more hair out, I’ll have to buy a wig.
I’ve seen pictures of Jane, but I wasn’t prepared to see her in person. BTW – I am happily married w/ child on the way. So I say what I say in a totally platonic sense. She has a presense.
Crazy Horse @ 190
Crazy Horse, thanks!
and sorry I missed the earlier post. thought you were just wishful thinking @ 60
Pat_AlexVA @ 214
If you hang around court rooms enough you’ll meet a lot of people like that. If you’re dressed in a lawyer suit it’s even worse. Since Prez Ronnie emptied the mental hospitals many of the inmates moved to the court houses.
N.H.
New Hamsher
18 minutes left.
No decision till next week, I bet. Been my thought all along. Much as we all wanna know ASAP, I think it’ll be better that way.
_
Pat_AlexVA @ 214
Dude, you met Laura Bush?
petedownunder- question for you at 192.
Jacqrat @ 209. Explains the rapier-wielding capacity, I think. Jane and Christy, you too and rugby????
More Americans play rugby than the total palyers in any other country. Rugby has been an Olympic sport twice, 1912 and (I think!) 1920. The US won the gold medal both times. Of course, that was before you wore so much wussy padding, stopped for a rest every five seconds, threw the ball forward, and played on carpet!
No prejudice here, you understand, but it is the national religion I grew up with!
tommy yum @ 151
Littleprop back again:
TOMMY YUM—My foster brother is a huge fan of THE SQUIRRELL NUT ZIPPERS, and I just so happen to be a huge fan of music…so you are in luck, because that means I think you’re cool (not that I don’t think anyone else isn’t cool, I just mean he is really cool cause of the whole music thing…oh you guys know what I mean) Anyway, I would just like to say as a true music lover (and possibly as a hippie) “keep on keepng on Tommy Yum.”
!!! !!!
111 111
111 111
111 111
111!111!111!111
!!!!!111!111!111!111
!1111!11111111111111
!1111!11111111111111
!11111!1111111111111
!111111!111111111111
!1111111!11111111111
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!!1111111111111111
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(I am very proud of my little rock ‘n’ roll hand and you sould be too, I meant that with the utmost respect)
There must be a couple of jurors who are trying to argue not guilty… vs. a room full of others who see the guilty reality and are trying to explain it to the holdouts.
Jury may end up hung…..
More to the Spin I’M In topic,
but no one there now
Rickie Lee Jones plays tommorow night in Chicago at my neighborhood Portage Theater
I don’t think it’;s been well publicized (but I might not really know)
In any event, Mrs Mack, Little Ms Mack and I will be there; rather excited that anything interesting might happen in our provincial corner of the city.
Do we want “clean up” on aisle 131?
I don’t think Joe or Valerie would appreciate that comment.
My book suggestion: the Aubrey/Maturin series from Patrick O’Brian.
entire series of 19 books. Quite a deal! The movie “Master and Commander” with Russell Crowe was made from the first book.
The prose is wonderful. O’Brian translated Simone de Beauvoir and did other “real” writing. This brings up the problem with these books: the writing is so wonderful that when I read standard trade lit (SFF, mystery, crime, etc.) the prose crawls across my eyes like maggots. Once you’ve gone Aubrey/Maturin you’ll never go back.
Just a taste: Jack Aubrey, a sea captain, and Steven Maturin, a Darwin/naturalist type, are sailing in the tropics. Maturin has acquired a sloth as a pet. He walksin to discover the sloth wobbling around because Aubrey has fed him beer, and Aubrey is in stitches. Maturin yells, “Jack! You have debauched my sloth!”.
Pre-sentencing reports prepared by the defense for someone convicted are “fascinating” reading. And they really can be voluminous, with letters from high-school teachers and high-school friends through every friend/acquaintance through life to the present day. You’ll have priests and rabbis attesting to the convicted’s charitable works and love of children, how they helped their friends in time of need or saved them from drugs, how their family will suffer from the kids to the parents – regardless of the crime, though in the white collar world you aren’t talking violent crime you can be talking about people who destroyed literally thousands of lives and stole hundreds, if not billion, of dollars.
Most of it seems (and is) incongruous (even ludicrous) b/c obviously the person convicted of the crime is not the “good” person all these others are attesting to. But even I will admit that letters from children, if there are any, are at least honest and heartfelt. Though interestly (or perhaps not), the letters from children also have the effect of making me think a lot worse of the convicted, since they should have thought about ALL the consequences ahead of time.
Dude @ 226
I doubt it.
BobbyG @ 221
Legal Eagles: In my past life working in TV news, I often waited for verdicts way into the night and on weekends. Is that a state by state thing? The type of case it is? Anyone know?
I’m worried about more chances for influencing over the weekend.
EPU- I was hoping you were still around- question for you as a lawyer from me @192. thx VG
dab_from_CT @ 229
Really? In response to the commentary about Anna Nicole getting attention because she is blonde, and “blondes get attention”?
I dunno. I think it is complimentary. And I’d think the Ambassador is well aware that his wife, in addition to being very accomplished, is quite attractive. Given what ‘gets attention’ in the media these days, I’m surprised that this factor doesn’t come into play any more than it does.
Craig Shergold @ 229
I read every word of that series… Lo-o-o-oved it.
Emptywheel and Jane…thanks for the shout out on last night’s video. Did you ever get the printer to work? And, I sure hope none of the beer exploded or caused gastric distress. I feel so privileged to have been able to help and I really mean that. I have very strong heterosexual love for you guys; you make me proud to be a woman and that’s just such an unbelievable gift. Great job!
Dude @ 226
I don’t think so. I suspect that they’re going at each charge separately. Look at the charge, map out the evidence on the flip charts. Discuss. Vote. Discuss. It could take hours for each charge.
I don’t want to pay for stupid.
annabanana @ 235
Read them all and was sorry when he passed away.
Mason @ 153
Amen to that! Good to see another Deadhead atFDL.
EPU@202 – Yeah, thats exactly why I was curious as to why LHP thought there might be no sentencing until after appeals, but as I said earlier, my experience is limited to the 9th Circuit, and if you have studied Federal jurisdiction you know we are a bit -eh- different out here sometimes.
Evil Parallel Universe @ 230
the limited amount of criminal defense work I do deals with people who want to plead guilty. For me, its ALL about the pre-sentence report and putting together a sentencing guidlines “package”. It’s kind of like putting together a really good college aplication. You want to the judge, when he reads it, to really think of the defendant as a whole person and to imagine all of the impacts the defendant’s incarceration will have on his family, his employees, and other lives that he effects.
Valley Girl @ 191
Unless there is actual misconduct – failing to disclose that scooter is their cousin – or blatant violation of court’s instructions on media exposure, rarely does jury conduct come up on appeal. The judge has to be careful that the verdict forms are right before reading them out and discharging the jury, but I’m sure he’ll take extra care with that. Does that answer your question?
Craig Shergold @ 230
I listened to one of those on tape. Coudln’t have been more boring.annabanana @ 236
I listened to one on tape. Boring. Nothing in it for me.
JGabriel @ 222
roflmao
bonkers @ 232
It’s a judge by judge thing. Walton seems to let them go by 5
six minutes (resume Jeopordy music)
Deadeye is more anxious than all of us put together. Can’t figure out whether to tell the pilot of AF2 to fly home or to Paraquay.
OldCoastie @ 248
Are we sure they don’t deliberate until 5:30?
Looks like a wrap.
Marcy,
IT”S BEER THIRTY!
Can the jury continue working after 5:30?
I was once on a federal jury in NY. We stayed later than we were told we had to.
*xyz @ 250
they better not! I’ve got stuff to do…
petedownunder @ 242
Thanks Pete. Yes, mostly. I was thinking more a long the lines of the way that they might positively try to counter appeals. But, I suppose that since all they say is guilty or not guilty for each charge, there’s really no opportunity.
Methinks next Friday at the earliest.
BTW, Heroin from the same concert is the far superior piece. Unfortunately not on Utube any longer.
bmaz @ 241
Ted has done a very good job in the past of persuading Walton that this case is “special”.
Hell, we even had an Imus exception to the Hearsay rule on the table at one point.
Wells does a good job of winning these smaller concessions.
“…Maturin yells, “Jack! You have debauched my sloth!”.
“I read every word of that series… Lo-o-o-oved it”
“Read them all and was sorry when he passed away”
Yes, it’s true. The sloth dies. Sorry for the spoiler.
emptywheel @
108
Did you ever get a copy of the verdict form? That is a useful document for understanding the jury deliberation process. I could not follow from the “transcript” what ended up happening on this.
Looks like that’s it for the day. Overheard press leaving.
No verdict.
*xyz @ 249
In most cases, the jury gets some leeway in terms of exactly how long they go. If they’re at a good stopping point at 4:45, they can quit; if they think they’re within a little bit of finishing (or getting to a good stopping point), they can push ahead past 5.
In other words, they finish when they finish.
“Jack! You have dislodged my Bosch!”
beth meacham @ 251
Walton has been pretty consistent about getting them out promptly. So, I think they are conditioned.
Some judges in NY (Keenan comes to mind) lets the juries have more say in how late they want to work and they often work further into the night than I would ever have the nerve to ask them to stay.
bummed!
Pat_AlexVA @ 259
You played your part well, Pat. Thanks for the effort. Major props.
Pat_AlexVA @ 259
Thank you for breaking the tension. Off to the mall with Littleprop!
She has been singing this made up song about how many more minutes till we leave. It’s been driving me nuts
VG – My take: most if not all juries are careful (there are exceptions, but in fed court I think I’m on safe ground in stating that), and they’re careful b/c they are charged with making important decisions that obviously have an effect on the defendant, the victims, society (writ large). And adding to that is the “gravitas” of the setting – the court room, the judge, the bailiffs – its all serious stuff. If you were a juror, and on this case, I think you (or anyone else selected) would be as deliberative as any other juror, take the responsibility as seriously, and review the facts, the elements of the crime(s) charged, and decide whether you thought the gov’t proved its case beyond a reasonable doubt. On top of that, there is also group dynamics involved, so even if there was one person who was flippant or whatever, I don’t see that lasting long.
As for juries and appeals. I posted a few weeks or so ago in response to a similar question that it is not unusual for something a jury has done to be the basis for an appeal – and there is some really bizarre shit that is claimed at times (I used the example of one juror claiming one juror left his wife to sleep with another juror). In the Martha Stewart trial they used “juror” misconduct as part of their appeal, and it went no where. And it typically goes no where. I don’t see it as anything to worry about if he is convicted (though I would expect them to use it on appeal if they can, b/c that is their job).
Well I got my supplies for either celebrating or unwinding. I guess I’ll be unwinding.
Bummer.
WAG – verdict, Tuesday noon.
VG at 253
I think that’s true. I have not seen the verdict forms, and I don’t do criminal, but I suspect it’s an up or down vote on each count and if 12 agree either way they have verdict on that count.
The only good appeal issues usually are if the jury instructions were wrong on the law and the defendant had offered a correct instruction that was refused or if evidence was admitted over objection and the court of appeals believes that it was both wrong to admit the evidence (or refuse to admit it) and, and this is important, that the evidence would have affected the outcome. Otherwise they call it harmless error and ignore it.
see you all Monday
Regarding Jane:
I have had the pleasure of a private audience with this wonderful woman. She is attractive, no doubt, but her spirit or essence or soul, that thing that forms a personality, is more attractive still. Jane is an extrordinairy person. Not as a woman, or “bright for a chick” but simply extrodinairy.
She has passion that is the fuel, not only for her, but for this entire community. I imagine she also has irons in the fire for her “day job.”
I personally have a deep and abiding respect for her that comes not from being starstruck or her physical beauty.
And for the first time I will share my conversation with her regarding her recent health issues.
We had concluded our time together and I was trying to negotiate my way around her to open the door, being the southern gentleman that I am, when she informed me that she was a two-time cancer survivor.
Gone was her ever present smiling eyes sparkling above her ample lips; they were replaced with fire and grimness, a determination and fierce defiance that stunned me and froze me in my tracks.
She jerked the door open with such force, I feared for the hinges, and the ambient pressure in the building changed noticably by her hand.
Jane is hot.
That is just too damn simple to describe such a dynamic and wonderful lady.
I still stand here with my hat in my hand, shifting from one foot and then the other…
LHP@256 – Understood. If I were Walton, Wells would not be my favorite person about now however. The whole pretrial classification nightmare and then no Libby and/or Cheney on the stand; coupled with the head in hands stunt during rebuttal closing. I would go so far as to say that if I were Wells, I would have Jeffress handle such an application, maybe the lion’s share of the sentencing, but that is just me. It is hard to make these calls without having actually seen the conduct of the trial, maybe Wells wasn’t that bad, sure came off that way from the liveblog and Pach’s summary.
looseheadprop @ 265
singing children are a mixed blessing
LHP – If you plead and/or cooperate, then I agree that there is a lot more that a pre-sentencing report may do for the client. But if you don’t, you still do it and hope it has some effect, though the gov’t is usually pretty adament about it not having any effect.
bmaz – I don’t see there being a huge difference between circuits on the “efficiency” issue.
Thanks EPU- as I said to PeteDU, I was initially thinking about something positive to head off appeals, but after thinking it over, there probably isn’t much scope for that. Thx. Again, I say Tues. aft earliest- have you weighed in with a guess?
VG – I have to sign off, but there are other lawyers about to answer questions. The future Mrs Downunder plans to exploit immigrant labor (labour) today.Hope I was helpful
petedownunder @ 274
Thx much!
EPU@274 – Probably true; out here we would sentence him on up if there was a conviction; so I’m sticking to my earlier comment then.
Oilfieldguy @ 271
WOW, OFG!
VG – Above I said I thought a week sounds about right, so Tuesday works for me.
Gromit @ 256
lol
I was sorry the author didn’t get a chance to “wrap up” the characters
I thought we would have a verdict today.
Can we back up a little here? I don’t get it – how can women play rugby?
I’m a murkan mutt so I once asked my friend from OZ about it and he told me: “Soccer is a game for gentlemen played by hooligans. Rugby is a game for hooligans played by gentlemen.”
He dinna say nuffin bouts women!
Oilfieldguy @ 280
OFG- I’ve lost track of how many individual parts are in play for the charges- 6, 7, 8? But I figured at least half a day for each, plus wrapup time.
IANAL, but isn’t it true that each count has to be considered separately? So there could be agreement on some counts, and further deliberation or disagreement on one or two other counts. From that point of view, disagreement or acquittal on one of the counts might consume a lot of time, but that doesn’t mean some guilty verdicts aren’t already in the bag (he said hopefully).
Oilfieldguy @ 282
I was thinking of you earlier,
Working on a W900 with 500 screaming yellow kitties.
Some one needs to learn to drain the air tanks occasionally. When they get full it’s time to look at the air dryer cartridge.
;-)
I should have added that I know several guys who play in the gay rugby league. That’s right, I said “gay rugby league”.
If’n yer gonna dew dialects, the propur spellin is “wimmen”!
Oilfieldguy @ 289
My bad.
OFG @ 270
Thanks for that. Lovely, indeed.
Bustednuckles @ 286
Standard practice–when waitin at the fuel pumps for the tanks to fill, drain the air tanks. It is a matter of training. Good to hear from you, Bustedknuckles and TommyYum and waving a big hand to Valley girl.
looseheadprop @ 264
But effective, yes?
I foresee a great career for her in either law or psychology :)
Notta Flatlander @ 284
Well, women play both of those games! We’re just slightly less hooliganish than men on both counts.
Hey OFG- keep well.
looseheadprop @
245
Many years ago, judges made jurors deliberate late into the night as well as on Saturdays. By keeping the pressure on, they thought, holdout jurors would finally give up and join the majority. This strategy usually disadvantaged defendants and pissed off jurors who subsequently spoke ill of jury duty and motivated them to figure out a way to avoid jury service if they were summonsed in to serve again. Most people don’t know this, but less than fifty percent of the people summoned for jury service actually bother to show up at the courthouse. Theoretically, a federal judge could order the U.S. Marshal’s to find and drag the no-shows to court where a very irritated federal judge would demand an explanation for their absence. Some judges even went so far as hold absent jurors in contempt of court and order them to jail overnight to punish them for ignoring their summons.
Cooler heads among the black-robed bunch eventually prevailed, not so much due to a desire to adopt a more warm and fuzzy approach as it was by recognizing that many jurors, particularly women, were afraid to leave the courthouse after the workday ended around 5:30 pm because the streets were empty, except for the mentally ill and street hustlers looking to make a quick buck. Standing on a lonely street corner after dark waiting for a ride, or searching for your car in a mostly empty parking garage with nothing to accompany you except the sounds generated by your footsteps can be a frightening experience for some folks, especially older people who generally avoid going into the city at night because they are so terrified.
As a result, most state and federal courts now excuse jurors at 5 pm, unless the jury asks to stay longer which occasionally happens if the jury is close to reaching a verdict.
Which is why we need way yonder more women in politics. Way, way yonder more.
I paid you a pretty good complement upthread, emptywheel, trying to make you blush and stuff.
Mason:
“Many years ago…” Hey, now I sound really old. Maybe I should tell another beef stroganof joke to feel young again ;)
Oilfieldguy @ 297
Shoot, I missed it. Where is it?
emptywheel
reproduced for your ease of enjoyment
Oilfieldguy @ 140
Oilfieldguy @ 300
Thank you kindly–for reproducing it and for the compliment.
Hey Bonkers,
I’m the old one. I remember sitting in bars and deciding to have yet another one as I killed time waiting on a verdict. It’s kind of embarrassing when the bartender answers the phone late at night and, following a brief conversation, says to me, “Time to get your sorry ass over to court because the jury has a verdict,” and I have to ask the dude for directions because I’m too drunk to remember where the hell it is.
Just curious emptywheel, do you have any booking dates lined up with any of the MSM talking head shows, due to your book holding you forth as an expert in this particular field pending the verdict?
Sorry for the compound complex sentence, but as a Phd, aka a “real doctor” I have no doubt you can make sense of what I just said.
Regarding the jury taking its time..
Ya know, even though this trial is about Scooter’s perjury and obstruction charges, the jury has to also have in the back of its mind that what they decide could have very serious implications for the Vice President of the United States, and possibly even the President.
Although they’ve been told not to consider peripherals, to focus on the charges that have been presented against Scooter Libby, you can’t unring a bell (particularly one that was rung as loudly as the one rung in Fitzgerald’s closing statements). They know this trial can set things into motion that can’t be stopped. The outcome will change lives, and history, forever.
If you take your job seriously as a juror and try not to let personal feelings get in the way, that’s a really heavy load to carry.
Doing the right thing takes time.
Mason @ 301
That busted me up.
As a crane pusher in the late ’70s (pusher means boss in the oilfields of an addicted nation) I demanded 30 minute lunches instead of an hour because my operators were getting too hammered for lunch. It took one guy an hour to find where he parked his crane!
Theoretically, a federal judge could order the U.S. Marshal’s to find and drag the no-shows to court where a very irritated federal judge would demand an explanation for their absence.
I was summoned for duty in county court once in TX (can’t remember if it was the criminal case time or the GJ opener time), where several people were no-shows. The judge was irritated enough to have them sent a notice with a stiff fine attached if they didn’t appear and either serve or produce an excuse. I think one of them would have been excused because of being over 65 – that one I actually knew – but it didn’t excuse the not showing up.
Sparkatus @ 10
I’d rather have the news come out on Monday rather than to be buried in the weekend news cycle (of course, the Sunday talking heads would water down the impact too).
maunga @
13
Hey! Don’t keep prejudice alive!
I’ve had two major heart operations, both valve jobs, decades apart, and I’m still the same Sweet Old Bob.
But weren’t Cheney’s operations for coronary bypass, IIRC? I mean, maybe there’s a reason the blood vessels around his heart keep getting clogged and hard.
Bob in HI
Oilfieldguy @ 271
OFG, that was so sweet.
OFG, you’re right, and I regret my initial post. The first time I saw her in person, I was genuinely struck by her, and that’s the idiot schoolboyish text that flew from my fingers. We had a conversation on the way back to her car, the deer in headlights feeling is gone now.