
No matter how cynical and hardened some of us have become in the last six years, there are still times when the next statement from the Vice President just takes your breath away. On Wednesday, the Vice President of the United States spoke to American sailors stationed in the Far East about the need for "honor" in the US policy in Iraq.
"We want to complete the mission, we want to get it done right, and we want to return with honor," said Cheney, who heads on Thursday for Australia to meet Prime Minister John Howard, another staunch supporter of Bush's Iraq policy.
Cheney's comment immediately evoked memories of Nixon's promise to achieve "peace with honor" in Viet Nam. But what struck me was the absurdity that Dick Cheney, the man whose words and actions have brought more dishonor on the United States than almost anyone in our lifetimes, would presume to lecture us on the concept of honor.
Dick Cheney, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld and their attorneys are responsible for the shameful notion that America's "honor" is loose enough to include this:
. . .as well as this continuing embarassment . . .

To retain our sanity and any sense of moral balance, we need to keep repeating that Dick Cheney is the guy who persistently encouraged and defended the use of torture and the use of information obtained during torture in military tribunals. He's the man with whom John McCain had to negotiate to get any restrictions on the use of torture and evidence derived from torture, and who rolled John McCain and Lindsey Graham, and thus the compliant Republican Congress, into passing a pathetically watered down restriction of torture in the Military Commissions Act. That's the bill that Cheney's and Bush's favorite non-Democrat, Joe Lieberman, voted for.
Dick Cheney is the man who thinks it’s okay for the US government to kidnap citizens of other countries, secretly render them to another country where they can be tortured, while transporting them through the countries of our allies, both embarrassing our allies and compromising their own laws; he's thus created the conditions in which two of those countries, Germany and Italy, have indicted nearly two dozen US agents for their roles in this despicable activity.
Dick Cheney is the man who, along with his and DoD's attorneys and the Attorney General, believes it is just fine to set up phony military tribunals to punish anyone, including lawful US residents and US citizens, held indefinitely by the US military at Guantanamo, if there was any suspicion, justified or not, of their being "enemy combatants." Cheney's the guy who, along with these same attorneys, believes that the US courts should not be allowed to determine whether these people have been lawfully seized, or are being lawfully imprisoned, denying a right of habeas corpus that has been the ethical and procedural foundation of US/British law for centuries. Cheney's the guy who thinks the President as Unilateral Executive is not bound by the 4th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States when it conducts surveillance of US citizens.
Dick Cheney is the guy who insisted that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and who insisted that the CIA was unequivocally confirming that Iraq had attempted to purchase uranium yellowcake from Niger to further its nuclear weapons program, and who, when the basis of this claim was exposed as a total fabrication, and when it was pointed out that the CIA, State and Defense had serious doubts about this story from the beginning, managed to conceal these doubts from the public but later blamed the CIA for his ignoring and hyping suspect intelligence information. And he's the guy who encouraged Doug Feith into doing a terrific job in his rogue intelligence group, stovepiping the phony information into the President.
Dick Cheney is the guy who, when Joe Wilson at first privately, and then publically challenged the Administration's claims about Iraq seeking uranium yellowcake, directed his Chief of Staff to continue to mislead the press about the WMD story, by leaking and misrepresenting selective portions of the classified National Intelligence Estimate to New York Times reporter Judy Miller, even while other members of the Administration were still attempting to get the NIE formally declassified, but without telling them he had already ordered the leak.
Dick Cheney is the guy who then conspired with and directed Libby to discredit Joe Wilson, including a scheme to recklessly and deliberately leak a CIA agent's employment and position to the media, without considering her classified status or the potential harm and risks this disclosure might have for Valerie Wilson, her CIA unit, their operations, her cover or the safety and lives of those she worked with in the intelligence community.
Dick Cheney is the guy who worked incessantly to convince the American people of a link between those who attacked us on 9/11 and Saddam Hussein's regime. He's the one who assured us, repeatedly, that a top al-Qaeda representative met Saddam's intelligence officials in Prague prior to 9/11. And then when this phony intelligence was exposed as bogus, and with equal assurance, he denied he ever said that.
Dick Cheney is the guy who assured the American people that the Iraq invasion would be easy, that we would be greeted as liberators, that the insurgency was in it's last throes, that we were making enormous progress in Iraq. This week Cheney pushed the fantasy that the British troop reduction in Basra was a sign of success in Iraq, and on and on. Along with George Bush, Dick Cheney is responsible for having recklessless put thousands of people in harms way, but Dick Cheney's response when asked to serve himself was, "I had other priorities."
And Dick Cheney is the guy who, when the President claims that criticism of his policies is not a sign of disloyalty or lack of patriotism, repeatedly links anyone who opposes the Bush/Cheney policy with support for al-Qaeda, both before the elections, and after. And he's still doing it. [Update: Digby has more over over the last two days.]
An honorable nation does not engage in these actions. Honorable people do not do them or endorse them. To Dick Cheney, I say, these are not the actions of an honorable man. If an honorable man suddenly woke up and discovered he had contributed to all of this, he would know exactly what to do:
He would first humbly apologize to the nation and beg for forgiveness.
And then he would resign.




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Mornin Scarecrow! Fitz!!
Saw Road to Guantanamo in Germany this week, the same day as closing arguments. How appropriate. Now to read post.
If Libby’s convicted, will Cheney be forced to resign?
I’m thinkin so. I’m hopin so.
Good morning. Happy Verdict Watch Day.
Cheney speaking about honor reminds me of this quote my dad occasionally used:
The louder he spoke of his honor, the faster we counted our spoons.
–Ralph Waldo Emerson
Thank you for putting all of this in one place. What is going on is insane and evil, to say the least.
I am angry. So angry. And even more … I’m sad. Very, very sad.
FDL is a lifeline for me and for many. Thanks.
Good Morning Scarecrow! A though provoking post this morning. George Bush is the man who enpowers Cheney, turn him loose on the rest of the world, and is eirther too stupid or doesn’t care enough to understand the consquences of Cheney’s actions. George associates action with manhood so he thinks he is a real stud.
Something to chew on. This business about declassifying the NIE. There are procedures for keeping records of declassification. Obviously if it is crime to leak classifed informetion (and it is crime) you need to keep track of what is and is not classified. There is a showdown brewing with the OVP becasue they claim that DON’T KEEP ANY REORDS OF WHAT THEY DECLASSIFY.
I have never seena document that shows when the NIE was declassified.
I am looking for evidence that such document exists (or doesn’t) anybody have any info on this?
And what man of honor, when tasked with carefully and deliberately finding the best candidate for VP spot, chooses HIMSELF!
From that moment on, Cheney’s use of the word honor would always seem hypocriticalto me.
I wonder if his lip curls upinto that sneer when he says the word “honor.”
Please consider this commentary written by David Kurtz, which appeared in Talking Points Memo on February 4:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c…..012263.php
Oh, not that I am predicitng or anything, but Fridays are often verdict days, Juries sometimes treat deliberations like a workweek, so on Fridays they feel a little more pressure to finish up.
I did not expect a verdict yesterday, today I am going to start getting obsessive.
looseheadprop @ 7
Here’s a link to Executive Order 13292: http://www.fas.org/sgp/bush/eoamend.html
looseheadprop @ 10
Be as obsessive has you like! I think most here are in the same boat on this too!
This reminds me of way back, in 2000, when George asked Dick to interview potential VP candidates for the ticket.
Of course, after interviewing all of them, Dick just couldn’t find anyone suitable for the job and took it upon himself instead.
I’m so glad he did. Can you imagine what shape our country would be in if we’d had an even worse VP?
Thank you for the comprehensive list! During the 2004 campaign, Cheney also authoritatively asserted that if John Kerry were elected that the US would be at increased risk of another terrorist attack
looseheadprop @ 10
I think today will be the day, too. Col. Jack Jacobs predicted – just now on Imus – that Libby would get off. He added, “One way or another”. really. and I guess that’s acceptable to “team Imus”! outrageous!
lisongare @ 14
Considering the scale of vote fraud in Ohio, I guess that means Dick kept his promise.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 11
Steve, Thanks. I know about the EO. What I am looking for is the memo/cover sheet/ diary entry/ check off form/ Whatever
that says on this date, X person authorized these parts of the NIE to be declassified.
I don’t actually think such a document exists publicily or at all. But before I go hog wild on a tin foil hat idea I have, I’m trying to do a little rough due diligence.
quick “topy” cop:
who’s words and actions
Should be whose words
Now back to read the full post. Thanks for this topic!
Good morning everyone. We actually got real snow last night. Not much, but it’s better than the ice we had.
lhp — yeah, that magic wand declassification stuff is just not credible. Lot’s more under that rock.
Stephen Parrish, CPA — thanks for the Kurtz link; fits in nicely.
I think today will be the day, too. Col. Jack Jacobs predicted – just now on Imus – that Libby would get off. He added, “One way or another”. really. and I guess that’s acceptable to “team Imus”! outrageous!
You gathered that right after Imus restated that “everyone knows they are war criminals and liars”?
lisongare @ 14
Where did I read it this morning? This is the problem when you read 5 newspapers and a bunch of blogs one right after the other.
There is an article that saw within the last 2 hours that says deadly terrorist attacks have increased 7 fold since we invided Iraq.
Don’t you feel safer knowng that? Not!
lhp –
I don’t actually think such a document exists publicily or at all. But before I go hog wild on a tin foil hat idea I have, I’m trying to do a little rough due diligence.
I agree. We don’t actually know what Cheney said to Libby; we only know what Libby says Cheney said about the NIE and getting clearance from the Pres. Then we had that curious statement by Cheney in some interview (anyone remember?) in which he said he had the authority himself. The timing of that in relation to what else was going on in the Libby case can now be looked at again in light of the new evidence from the trial.
Scarecrow @ 19
I am becoming very interested in that rock. You may recall that “Mary” spent almost a year trying to get folks to pay attention to abuse of the classification rules.
To say she has been vindicated by the revelations of the Libby Trial would be a huge understatement.
I think it may be time to revisit some of thase citation rich comments of hers.
If only I understood how to search the comment archives.
Scarecrow;
Nice to meet you.
I’m one of those who believe Cheney IS the living symbol of the congressional-military-industrial complex, and it did not take him long to put the wheels of war into motion, once he annointed himself the king behind the brainless puppet prince.
If I were to pick a moment when the neocons’ master plan went into high gear, from the time Sharon stepped onto the Temple Mount, those wheels have been in motion, and Cheney’s no-bid book-cooking bubbas have been profiting ever since.
Saddam’s hanging corpse and multi-national corporate control of all that Iraqi oil were Cheney’s primary lifetime achievements(not necessarily in that order).
That will be the history book’s footnote about Cheney, he’ll be listed tight after that “comma” that Bush called the Iraq War.
There’sll be no record of humane philonathropy, no accolades for making peace between warring nations, no charming tales of heroic sacrifice to make the world a better place for future children.
Cheney’s legacy will be one of unchecked corporate greed and an insatiable hunger for more oil.
I’ve said it before, it is no surprise to many of us, that we DID find a terrible Weapon of Mass Destruction in Iraq.
It’s called OIL. And Richard the Worst wants it all for himself.
“topy” cop again:
its okay for the US government
“it’s okay”
no apostrophe in the possessive its
use apostrophe in the contraction it’s [it is]
Sorry to be so picky, but FDL’s incredible expertise is now being linked all over the blogosphere.
looseheadprop @ 23
Check for Mary 2002 posts at dKos.
Good Morning Scarecrow and Firedogs -
scarecrow – sterling effort, my oh my
but wait, there’s more -
there is a connection between this Beast and what we have seen out of Bldg 18 this week – uniforms and their families continue to suffer b/c the resources needed to provide them with proper care has gone to Haliburton, Bechtel, & Dyncorp – and we all know who was driving that bus
And this sent me around the bend (clinical term) when I saw it last night
simply unbelievable
Coming back from lunch to my office at the DOJ yesterday around 1:15, I walked right past the man himself — Fitz in the flesh. I was too much in awe to speak, but if I had found the words, this is what I would have said:
“Mr. Fitzgerald, I am an attorney at the Department of Justice. I am actually quite proud of the work I do in my section, and glad to be doing it. But at the same time, it is a rare thing these days for me to turn on the tv news and see something that makes me proud to be a part of the Justice Department. You do, and I just want to thank you for that.”
Excellent post, scarecrow.
I’ve had these same thoughts for years. I could never have articulated them so well. I’m taking this post with me to look at from time to time, so that, in the future, I won’t just stammer and sputter when talking about this evil, evil man.
Fineman just called in to Imus ’cause he can’t stand to be ignored…. his bunny in the stewpot is that Fitz was insufficient so the jury had to call for post-its and pictures to convince a couple hold-out jurors. But Wells was a wonderful attorney, a saint I tell you…and based on Fineman’s vast experience as a juror in DC [one civil case], this is probably the biggest experience of these lowly jurors lives….
Gag me.
Dick Cheney and company are war criminals.
addie loggins @
28
Welcome addie loggins — thanks for your service, and hang in there. The country needs honest people like you in the DoJ.
BTW there was some confirmation at the time from McClellan that as of a press conference on (IIRC) July 23 the NIE had been declassified, but he refused to give the date on which the magic wand had been waved.
As far as the classification system goes, the “TATS” markings on at least one (or more?) Libby trial evidence documents is interesting.
“TATS” (which was said to be “Treat As Top Secret”) is not, as far as I know, part of the U.S. Government classification system.
Does OVP has a separate scheme for classifying documents?
I think an enterprising young reporter who pulled on this thread would find a very interesting sweater falling apart in their hands.
addie loggins,
thank you for your service
don’t know how long you have been reading here, but Christy, lhp, Mary,et al have done a very good job impressing on us that there are ethical, concientious, patriotic folk toiling away on behalf of The People and often in a hostile environment at DOJ – good on ya
Welcome to The Lake !
forget the apology,
JUST RESIGN!
Scarecrow @ 22
SOmething else. ANd I’m gonna do a post about this b/c it has been driving me nuts.
Cheney was in the room when Scooter first learned about Valerie Wilson. Cheney is writitng talking points for Libby to go rebut Joe Wilson.
The shit hits the fan about leaking a NOC. And Libby goes to Cheney and says “My source for learning about Valerie Plame was Tim Russert”
Cheney knows thats not true. Libby knows thats not true.
It was amoung the final pieces of information Pat said tot he jury the other day.
It’s Libby informing Cheney about what their cover story is going to be.
Which is why am trying to find out if we have ANYTHING AT ALL except the “word” of Shrub, Shooter and soon to be adjudged liar Libby to support this Insta-declassification thingy?
I do know there is supposed to have been a conversation where Libby asks (addington?) whether it is true that VP can declassify or whether Pres can insta declassify.
Pat also stressed (as did Wells odddly enough) that when Libby went to leak the NIE to Miller only 3 people in the world knew about this declassification.
The people who actually had a legitiamte reason to know about such declassififcation, say like the Secretaries of State and Defense, the CIA Director, the NAtional Security Advisor–They are not told. Even though they are actively requesting declassification of this very document.
If the ONLY contemporaneous corroboration for the insta declassification is this coversation, I would be very curious to know how firm the proof of the DATE of that conversation actually is, rather than just accepting that those things actually happened as they are saying.
Wowsa, Scarecrow! Focused. Pointed. Fitzian.
We are inspired.
Impeach Shadow President Chee-knee.
And the first act after the swearing-in of Democratic President Edwards-Obama-Clark-Richardson should be the appointment of Fitz as AG, tasked with cleaning out all the rats from Washington. War profiteers, traitors, criminal conspiracy WHIGs, the whole she-bang. No exemptions. And start at the top.
I rarely think of a person as “evil”, but Cheney is evil.
addie loggins @ 28
There are so many good decent people still working in our government and trying to keep doing hte right thing in spite of terrible odds. I hope you are able to wait out this cabal and get back to a time where you are proud, not only of your own good work, but of your agency as an institution.
In some ways, I think our choice of the next Attorney General is almost as important as our choice for our next president.
In fact, I think a very good campaign trail question would be to ask who the candidate has in mind for AG, CIA Director and FBI Director. We have to be very serious about restoring integrity to those agencies from the top. We can’t expect midlevel managers to keep fighting their own bosses to try to do thier jobs correctly
man-oh-man scarecrow… you just keep getting better and better… and this one really hit the spot.
i woke up this morning thinking about honor and what it means today. guess it’s from going to sleep thinking about the libby trial with the fitz vs cheney as almost mythical archetypes.
LHP @ 36, see here for Libby consulting Addington about declassifying NIE
Thanks.
I’m gonna keep at this for a few days. Maybe pick Marcy’s brain a little.
Oops! Wrong link about Addington. Try here. Sorry!
Has anyone any idea about how wide-spread Cheney’s personal “secret service” is? And shouldn’t someone be looking carefully into the crossover confession in Cheney’s placebo employee list? Why would Cheney, other than presiding over the Senate, have “operatives” scattered throughout Capitol Hill? Are they there as civil servants or Cheney’s corporate spies?
Or is this just one of those traditional transparent links between two supposedly separate branches of government, that has never been an issue because the VP has never been so powerful???
Is the office of VP actually a hook-up between branches that we might want to reconsider. Especially considering how Cheney has abused it so fatally?
My concept of congressional protocol may be quite skewed here. But to my untrained brain, a power-mongering VP with unqualified support from his own majority party, might easily be the beginning of a breakdown of the all-important separation of powers.
If we have many more VP’s like Cheney, it might be worth considering removing the VP from The Hill as a permanent fixture.
there will never be a resignation from anyone in this administration who doesn’t want to put some distance between themselves and the crime family.
and of course, cheney is bush’s little stay-out-of-impeachment-free card. cause no one wants to see cheney actually ascend to the top spot.
the point of the talkingpointsmemo post, cited above in comments, is truly apt: cheney has preferred the background, where there is little scrutiny. i have no doubt that he’s been running all the major foreign policy elements of this government. scary, when you think just how bent an individual he is.
to wrap himself in terms of “honor”….no, he doesn’t get to do that.
one last little item for scarecrow’s impeccable checklist. in the first months of the bush administration, after the rudman and hart commission laid out the clear and present danger (let alone richard clark screaming in the halls of the white house), cheney was tasked with running an anti-terrorist policy group. i believe its first meeting was supposedly 9/10/01, but i’m not sure if it met even then.
Scarecrow – another great piece. I hope there is a steady drum beat for his resignation, with or without a Libby conviction (but preferably with).
There is a certain irony that we now have to deal with an administration full of individuals who were part of previous Republican administrations determined to invoke Constitutional crises like Watergate and Iran Contra. With Bush as president they have had free reign to “right” all their perceived wrongs and have taken us to the bring of destroying our democracy – from stealing elections, to lying us into war, to condoning torture, to sitting by and allowing a city to drown.
It is an administration that will live in infamy and I certainly hope the Congress will discharge their Constitutional duty and move to impeach Cheney (if that’s possible). Agnew had to resign when he was indicted for crimes committed when he was Governor of Maryland. How wonderful it would be if the second after Libby is convicted, Fitzgerald announced Cheney’s indictment.
One can dream…
Resign doesn’t do it for me. That kind of person has to be removed from office.
Oh, I forgot, we’re not allowed to do that. Never mind.
lhp –
In fact, I think a very good campaign trail question would be to ask who the candidate has in mind for AG, CIA Director and FBI Director. We have to be very serious about restoring integrity to those agencies from the top. We can’t expect midlevel managers to keep fighting their own bosses to try to do thier jobs correctly.
That’s the best suggestion I’ve seen on what we should be asking these folks in Iowa and New Hamshire. I see an lhp post on that theme.
Scarecrow — maybe you could collaborate with John Dean to draft some articles of impeachment for Cheney? Maybe today some time? ;-) Nice work, thorough.
looseheadprop — the NIE declassification is right there with the declassification of Brewster-Jennings. Somebody in the chain made the assumption that because Plame was outed, that her employer was fair game, too — a form of instant declassification, without any apparent effort to check for damage control before continuing. Bugs the bejabbers out of me.
Anyhow…went surfing for Mary’s comments. Thought she’d made them back in Haloscan days. Here’s one thread in which declassification is discussed; she refers to 3.1(b) in the course of the thread. I’ll keep looking.
dab_from_CT @ 46
this is right on. there has simply not been a republican administration in the last 40 years that has not tried, and in most respects, succeeded in shredding the constitution.
i’d be willing to give ford a pass, except he’s where rummy and cheney got traction.
and bush I, let’s not forget his self-defensive pardoningn of weinberger et al., leaving prosecutor walsh sputtering impotently.
this ought to be a meme that at least gets out among the democratic base. republicans = authoritarians.
I was flabbergasted to hear that Swingin’ Dick had the raisins to go to Japan and assure them that Americans were still big supporters of this ‘war’.
What a lying sack of shit.
lhp,
if you are still here –
I made 2 of my customers (1 Pros., 1 Def.) spew their ice tea on weds. -
imagine asking your hippie waiter her impression of closing arguments – and she sallies forth on failed Gray Mail attempts and the Scottish Defense
after patting themselves dry, they asked me to extend their hardiest commendations to my ‘tutor’
now waving to Armani Boy and UT LAW – told ya this place was the shit ! -
Scarecrow @ 48
yes please! would love to see an lhp post on this subject.
Great post once again, Scarecrow. I agree with you completely; I’m sure we all do.
“imagine asking your hippie waiter her impression of closing arguments – and she sallies forth on failed Gray Mail attempts and the Scottish Defense…”
Give up the waitress work and get into law-school, girl, you are underemployed!
Cheney an honorable man? He’s a Republican. To them, it’s plunder before honor.
lhp — still reading that same thread to which I linked.
Note Stephen Parrish’s comment, offering 18 USC 793 and 18 USC 798
Commenter apodaca also offered some choice tidbits.
Morning all. This ought to go without saying, but I am going to say it anyway: no threats of violence, no discussions of hangings or other violents acts, no comments relating to anything you might like to see or do or what-have-you to Dick Cheney or any other member of the Administration. Period. You can discuss ideas, concepts, politics, and whatever else is pissing you off — but no threats. There is this little group that I like to call the Secret Service, and they tend to frown on that sort of thing — and I would prefer that we don’t have to deal with them on a daily basis. Plus, frankly, it’s just bad form. If you have questions about this, please feel free to e-mail me at ReddHedd AT firedoglake DOT com. But as I have made this clear numerous times in the past, you can expect that I will be enforcing a no tolerance policy on this sort of thing — consider yourselves forewarned. Thanks.
lhp — yes, my first reaction to the Libby GJ testimony that “I heard it from the NBC grapevine” was, “Why is he telling Fitz that he and Cheney discussed a cover story?”
I suppose Libby thought that Cheney would also be testifying, and that Cheney would confirm this conversation, and that would be enough. But it’s very curious. And then to come back later, and tell Cheney, “uh, boss, I made a mistake; you told me.” I don’t think Cheney’s reaction was just a nod of the head!
Where is Alexander Butterfield?
lhp — grabbed my copy of Hubris, to find that there is only one indexed entry to NIE, pg. 70.
Covers Condi Rice and whether she actually read the NIE or not. She’d been asked in July 2003 in regards to the uranium story, but reporters never followed up to insist on an answer.
It’s a month later before she says she’s read it. Bet you dollars to donuts Condi knew the NIE wasn’t declassified as of July 2003 and therefore avoided responding altogether.
The manner in which this is covered in Hubris, folks alleging Condi hasn’t read the NIE and it makes her look bad, suggests to me that they tried to use her as a cut-out and she knew it and side-stepped it.
cbl @ 27 re Chee-knee’s statements on Iran procuring uranium from Tanzania:
Don’t recall where I saw it in hectic yesterday’s readings, but some say that Iran has its own supply of uranium and has no need of importing it from Tanzania or anywhere.
Just another in the pattern of lies-by-Chee-knee? I report, you decide.
lhp–
I’m so glad you are preparing a post on the issue of declassification. No matter what verdict is returned, this is one of the big bombshells to come out ot the trial.
But here’s a point that goes beyond the fact of even whether or not the NIE was actually properly declassified according to (questionable) executive authority and established procedures:
Even IF the NIE was declassified using the proper procedures, such classification or declassification (the statute makes it clear that there is no distinction in how those two are to be treated) is illegal. (I believe it is the National Securities Act of 1947 that lays out the language) if it is used for political purposes. It specifically prohibits classification (and thus declassification) to avoid “embarrasment.” I promise to find the exact language when I get a few minutes. The Act is here:
http://www.intelligence.gov/0-natsecact_1947.shtml
I had it in an earlier commentary, but I can’t find the damn thing right at the moment. anyway, a very important point deserving of Congressional investigation. As I read it, anything classified must be “marked” for classification or declassification, so there must be a “marked” copy of the NIE somewhere.
Stay on this!
Did you watch Ghosts of Abu Ghraib last night? There was a surprisingly casual mention in there that truly shocked me (and I thought I was numb to Abu Ghraib).
There was a women and children’s wing right by the “hard area” where the torture went on. They said that they’d detain a man’s wife and/or kids in order to make him turn himself in. Isn’t that kidnapping? Isn’t that was the other side does? There was a nine year old kid in Abu Ghraib. NINE YEARS OLD.
Let me add my friendly and thankful greetings to you, Addie Loggins. Your pride in your DoJ colleague Patrick Fitzgerald marks you as one of the Good People.
Scarecrow, thanx for yet another post with a notably high pith/byte ratio. You mention what an honorable man would do, after begging forgiveness: resign. This is certainly true.
But in Shooter’s case, I would hope for a forced and highly ignominious resignation. Even when it comes wreathed in the soft camouflage of “health reasons” — as it will in the coming weeks — we will know precisely why he is going, and we will drink deep of the cup of satisfaction. Here’s to your long, healthy and disgraced retirement, Mr. Vise pReznit.
Just a comment on cbl’s last post, I wonder how many new, young and old potential lawyers and legal experts will develop from what you folks at Firedog Lake have done here?
If just ONE cbl gets a fire in her heart for justice, and goes on to become a lawyer or even a legal aide, or a public servant in the legal field, Firedog Lake has accomplished a wonderful thing.
My eldest son is a lawyer, and his teenage experience watching them mercilessly and for purely political reasons, skewer Clinton during the impeachment debacle, helped inspire that hunger for a hand in promoting real justice.
So along with your great reporting and your earnest truth-search, you folks are also an inspiration for many future legal eagles, whose goal is not self benefit, but the public good.
You folks are helping create a future class of honest, public-minded lawyers. And I hope the civics teachers across the land have logged on for their students, and followed your work, too.
They are currently insisting on court proceedings here to address the laws Canadian soldiers may have participated in breaking by handing captured insurgents over to the US for torture and indefinite incarceration.
Military advisers and others involved are insisting that Canadian troops no longer hand over detainees or that if they must, that new guidelines for their care and eventual release be put in place and followed.
It’s a little late for a conscience but Harper’s power is waning fast, so there is some hope.
He’s so desperately trying to force Parliament to reinstate our version of the patriot act and he’s got no 9-11 to beat people over the head with he’s actually trying to use the Lockerbie tragedy as his terrorism example. He actually accused a sitting member of Parliament of terrorist connections because he won’t allow himself or his family to be questioned about Lockerbie. He was six when it happened.
Anyone who doesn’t see shrub’s arm up Harper’s ass is kidding themselves.
Heck, FDL makes me want to be a lawyer, and I don’t even have a college degree!
looseheadprop @ 36
The people who actually had a legitiamte reason to know about such declassififcation, say like the Secretaries of State and Defense, the CIA Director, the NAtional Security Advisor–They are not told. Even though they are actively requesting declassification of this very document.
If the ONLY contemporaneous corroboration for the insta declassification is this coversation, I would be very curious to know how firm the proof of the DATE of that conversation actually is, rather than just accepting that those things actually happened as they are saying.
i hope fitz asked bush about the insta-declasification (of the nie, plame, and brewster jennings) when “Bush spent more than an hour answering questions from special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald“
OT – sort of – since it’s about Lieberman who (in my mind, at least) melds into Cheney. But Howie has a great post up about the Dem’s move in the Senate to revoke war authorization and the speculation that this may be the final nail in the Lieberman coffin. According to Howie, even former supporters are eager for him to jump to the Republican side. I guess even Landreau is tired of his WATB whining.
The graphic is to die for…
http://downwithtyranny.blogspot.com/
Cheney now says Iran seeking uranium from Tanzania? I can’t believe we are having this absolute repeat of the propaganda used for going to with Iraq. How stupid do they think we are!?! More importantly, how stupid is Cheney?
I took “Anatomy of Deceit” with me to a meeting the other night where I sat next to a lawyer. (Lots of waiting at the meeting.) Later he said it looked like some interesting reading. . .I said “FDL,” he was familiar.
Prairie Sunshine, you are after my heart as the Queen of punctuation/apostrophes.
Prairie Sunshine,
yes, we all agreed that Iran has plenty of it’s own uranium -
it was the idea that someone would even attempt this exact same murderous gambit again that sent me ranting
I still want everyone of the unnamed sources, anonymous intel officials, etc. to come out yesterday
wha ? the Beast must have a Drums of War Generator® bookmarked ?
I see this morning that the article is from August and we were all probably so focused on the upcoming election it failed to register
dab_from_CT @ 69
Well we got sick of Joe’s whining during the campaign season. I can’t imagine having to work with the guy.
Alicia @ 67
Go for it…it’s never too late.
A PBS program I commented about a couple days back re the Marines cited their starting a program of study of combat behavior, etc. in ‘99. One guy’s comment was that he took the most pride in teaching the character building segment: ethos. Right vs. wrong.
Isn’t Pace a Marine?
Honor. History. True warriors.
Bush/Chee-knee crowd? None of the above.
Kristof NYT
‘ The basic question for Cheney is whether he directed an effort from the White House to tar the reputations of Joe and Valerie Wilson, blame the C.I.A. for misleading him and leak to favored reporters the fact that Valerie worked for the C.I.A. in the W.M.D. area. It sure appears he did all of these. In addition, since Libby and Cheney shared a limousine to work every day, did they ever discuss the statements that Libby was making to the grand jury that are the subject of the alleged perjury?
If so, did Cheney encourage him to make those statements? One of the blogs that has covered the Libby trial most closely, Fire Dog Lake, has come up with a detailed timeline raising questions about Cheney. I’ve already written that if Cheney won’t address these questions, he should resign. “
…………………
[questions for Dumbya]
“
We just don’t know the answers to these questions, and there’s not much point speculating. But when serious questions are raised about the integrity of the White House, the President and Vice President owe us answers. “
JEP @ 65
Check me out on this, other firepups, but I was appalled to hear that in recent years (prolly since the Reagan era) the teaching of Civics has virtually disappeared from our public schools, to be replaced by “teaching to the test” rote learning.
My old High School Civics teacher was kind enough to attend my Mom’s funeral a couple years back. This fellow had been a dynamic inspiration and of course I thanked him for that — but I also told him I’d rather he hadn’t further honed and informed my patriotic idealism, because had he not, I wouldn’t be in such anguish to see what had become of my country. We commisserated. That was an extra sadness, but a true one. :(
I hope anyone who has access to the House Intel Committee will forward this post. The People want to know.
mui @ 70
Arrogant. Delusional. Cynical. Stupid?
****
dab, that graphic needed a major spew warning!
When people ask me if I’m a lawyer, I ask them not to call me names.
:-}
Any guess who this senior official is? If so, kudos.
lhp — emptywheel on the NIE’s declassification, from 12-FEB-06 in FDL comments.
There’s more in the same thread on the topic. Still looking for more of Mary’s comments.
For others wishing to revisit the NIE, see Jane’s post from April 2006, “Cheney ordered Libby to leak classified information.”
“Anyone who doesn’t see shrub’s arm up Harper’s ass is kidding themselves.”
Another sockpuppet, no doubt? But I would guess it’s Cheney’s third hand you see buried up there, if this trial proves anything, it proves the shrub has always been a little shrub and the VP really holds the keys to power.
I’m starting to get this Hindu mental image of an eight-armed Cheney-demon, with sock-puppets on every hand, including everyone but….
Funny, I couldn’t think of anyone who fit the end of that sentence. Powell, maybe? But no doubt it was Cheney who gave him that little vial of white powder. And while Condi may be playing coy, her sockpuppet it glued to one of Cheney’s many hands.
Any good Hindu artists out there want to make a colorful drawing of that 8-armed Cheney demon? You know, like the ones with Siva, Kali, Krisna and the elephant, what’s his name, Ganesh?
And when you do the Bush sockpuppet, try not to make his face look too much like Hanuman, lets not show that holy monkey any disrespect.
Why wouldn’t Keith Olbermann appear on MSNBC with Michael Savage?
Let Keith explain:
“But I couldn’t appear with him because he’s an insane fascist.”
So succint, so true.
Thanks for having some integrity Keith.
-GSD
dab_from_CT @ 69
http://downwithtyranny.blogspot.com/
ROTFLOL!
He’s already got the beginnings of a uniform — make him an Astronaut and ship him into space!
He’s so holy, let ‘im sing “Nearer My God To Thee!!”
Yeah, thass the ticket!!! :)
A surprisingly even handed profile of Fitz at the WaPo, foreshadowing the coming swiftboating if a guilty verdict is reached.
The reporter even followed a quote trashing Fitz by ex-senator Fred Thomson with his affiliation as a member of the team raising cash for Libbey, rather than as someone with no axe to grind.
This just in:
“The Libby jury has asked for Cheney’s neck size”
[CHS says: Love you. Please see here. And then tell me that you were saying this because Libby wants to outfit Dick with some new Brooks Brothers shirts or something equally innocuous, because I know you weren’t just implying something that could in any way be misconstrued.]
Is that a patriotic pig tatoo on Joe’s arm?
Hilarious, now we have the Pork Party (hey, don’t they all belong to that one?!?)
dab_from_CT @ 69
Glad you picked up on the graphic that Adam did. It is based on Lieberman’s real life fetish, the one they’ve managed to keep under wraps for all these years but that is not a big secret in DC circles. When Gore picked him to be his running mate, the biggest fear at the DNC is that this would come out.
Pachacutec @ 80
This reaction is curable. Sounds like a psychological problem. We should talk, Pach.
JEP — Cheney’s more like a hydra. Kali is the many-armed goddess, but of goodness, the destroyer of negativity. Would be unseemly to liken her to Cheney.
But a hydra works.
Terry in Maryland @
63
We had 12 to 14 year olds in Guantanimo if I recall correctly.
Yep, children. Yep, kidnapping. Rape, check. Murder, check.
-GSD
By the way, Limbaugh is now on the war with Iran AND Syria bandwagon. He says if the US goes “heavy metal” that the nation will be cheering and the Democrats won’t know what to do.
The hour glass is almost empty, kids.
Will,
I’m sorry I missed that Kristof piece which included commendations for FDL – linky or date please ? thx
mui,
with all due respect – absof’inglutely not ! we have spent the last 3 years listening to one after another of these folks come out to tell us what they knew in 02 – and with 3100 dead, 30,000 wounded, and the all but immeasurable toll on the Iraqi people – there is zero excuse for these folks to hide behind the “unnamed sources” wall
that article is filled with attributions to “former” officials, no excuses for any of them not coming out
Rayne @
57
Rayne -
If you haven’t already done so, please check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage_Act
Wikipedia excerpt:
Link to United States v. Morison: http://www.mtsu.edu/~lburriss/morison.html
Really, folks, if you missed dab’s post at 69, look again, this is REALLY funny, I hhope punaise will offer some related insight sometime along the way.
ANd why is this baby smiling? Is it just gas, in the form of a muchroom cloud?
http://downwithtyranny.blogspot.com/
mui @ 81
I’m thinking Ambassador Wilson might have a couple of ideas . . . and Joe, if you’re here and you know, please pass along our thanks to someone trying to smack down vice presidential paranoia!
EPU’d (with a couple edits) from a few daze back:
My earlier response:
Yabbut yabbut, FDL just sits there until you explicitly think to Refresh; that’s the only way you’ll know about the verdict from here.
What I do is leave the FDL “gabbly” window
open with its sounds turned ON. (Of course, I also leave my speakers ON loud!
So, when verdict stuff begins to happen, and in the hopes that “the usual gang” gathers over in GabblyVille, :) my computer will begin to beep at me. So I won’t miss out — because Gabbly is “push-based” rather than “pull-based” like the web is.
Remember, because Gabbly runs on a completely other server somewhere on the ‘net, using it takes some of the heavy load off the FDL servers!
Hint: Use two windows. Put the above URL in one, and this one in the other. Position the windows where you can see both the chat about FDL and the real FDL. Refresh only the REAL FDL window.
Go jury, give us back the truth! All hail Fitz and the entire (((FDL Crew))), additional best loyal healthy vibes to dear admired ((((Jane)))) — and Godspeed to us all.
I saw the title and thot, well, that’s going to be a short post.
JEP — good gravy, I was closer than I thought. Didn’t realize that HYDRA was an organization from Marvel comics. Note the definition:
Yeesh. That’s Cheney Co.
Dick Cheney must resign!! There is no place for him in any civil and rational discussion of the problems facing the world, domestically or internationally. I strongly urge Sens. John Warner and Jim Webb of Virginia, along with all other members of either party who value honesty, decency, and the institutions of our democracy to demand of Pres. Bush that he ask for the resignation of the Vice President.
There is only one path to peace.
The path is peace.
jim
S.O.S. in MA @ 76
Check me out on this, other firepups, but I was appalled to hear that in recent years (prolly since the Reagan era) the teaching of Civics has virtually disappeared from our public schools, to be replaced by “teaching to the test” rote learning.
My old High School Civics teacher was kind enough to attend my Mom’s funeral a couple years back. This fellow had been a dynamic inspiration and of course I thanked him for that — but I also told him I’d rather he hadn’t further honed and informed my patriotic idealism, because had he not, I wouldn’t be in such anguish to see what had become of my country. We commisserated. That was an extra sadness, but a true one. :(
I had that impression, too. Your comment reminded me of my high school civics teacher, a graduate of Reed College, who got us in the 1950s to read the New York Times, explained the different forms of logical and illogical argument used in political discourse, and generally urged us to think.
Unfortunately, the following year he was fired, when the class after mine used their right to speak to send a telegram to President Eisenhower urging him to apologize to Khruschev for the U-2 incident. The students had organized themselves after class and voted on it. No matter. The school board was forced to let him go (to its credit, the Board defended him).
He ended his life as a janitor at the University of Washington.
scarecrow,
I don’t know that the Military Commissions Act has any diluted language regarding torture.
McCain’s original anti-torture bill required that interrogation of Guantanamo detainees follow the guidelines of Army Field Manual. It was attached as an amendment, I believe, to the 2006 Military Appropriations Bill and became known as the Detainee Treatment Act. It was essentially vitiated by a Presidential signing statement.
Re the Military Commissions Act, Senators Warner, Graham, and McCain negotiated a “compromise” with, I believe, Cheney and/or his minions which effectively gave the White House everything it wanted.
egregious @ 97
I don’t do short posts. Takes a lot more work, as Mark Twain once noted.
Rayne, thanks for the Mary/apodaca/SPCPA links, have been wanting to re visit them : )
hydra is especiallly apt for those familiar with how Heracles finally dispatched the Beast – with it’s own venom, apparently it’s been a while since Mr. Wells read his Bulfinchs
Prairie Sunshine @
30
Prairie, honestly I wouldn’t understand how you have the guts to listen to that crap if I didn’t know that sometimes out of boredom and a lack of an AAR station here in Atlanta I find myself listening to Neal Boortz!
Gag me INDEED!
70 American soldiers have been killed in Iraq this month.
Do we know who there mothers are? Do we know where they will be buried? Do we know who will have custody of their children?
What is important? Who decides these things?
I wonder if there is any study that correlates the shrinking voter percentage with the loss of civics as a course of study?
I am with the rest of you. I believe the whole loss of “civic capacity” is directly related to the lack of mandatory education in high school or below, on the importance of the citizenry and how to participate in democracy. Not to mention the importance of that participation.
Is anybody at the courthouse from FDL? Do we have people on call?
Hugh @ 101
I thought that the MCA had a provision giving the President some discretion in defining what measures would or would not be acceptable. Is that not true?
Scarecrow,
A great post, very nicely laid out.
looseheadprop,
I’ve only very haphazardly skimmed some comments here, but I gather you’re interested in the wholel insta-declassification question, as was I, very intensely, for the couple of weeks after the revelation about the NIE (if indeed it was the NIE — cf. emptwheel) having allegedly been declassified prior to its public release on July 18, 2003.
From the very beginning I was interested in precisely this question of whether the NIE ever in fact was declassified (if so, what portions?) prior to 18 July 2003. Here’s one of my first comments on the subject :
Later on it became clear to me that EO 13292 did in fact provide the President with this kind of declassification authority (though no matter what David Addington may claim, the VP’s declassification authority is still mighty unclear, as Steven Aftergood notes). But the main point about whether in fact this declassification in fact ever took place still stands, and like you, I’m extremely reluctant to rely on the say-so of Libby, Addington, Cheney et al.
Prairie, honestly I wouldn’t understand how you have the guts to listen to that crap if I didn’t know that sometimes out of boredom and a lack of an AAR station here in Atlanta I find myself listening to Neal Boortz!
Gag me INDEED!
yea but we get Clark Howard right before that swine Hannity! Check 680 the Fan at 2pm, KO is on with Dan Patrick.
jim preston @ 99
I imagine Darth is banking on his 18%. It’s a little less than the 30% who “approved” of Clinton’s impeachment, but you know how persistant these right-wingers are.
Howie Klein @ 88
LOL – I’m sending the link to my CT comrades in arms. I’m sure it will get wide distribution and give everyone a good chuckle heading into the weekend.
Thanks Howie.
Bwahahah dab, that was a funny graphic.
Quick lesson on permanent links for anyone who wants to know how, I’ll use that example.
On that post look for the timestamp next to the author’s name (if it isn’t clearly labeled as ‘link’ or ‘permanent link’, etc.) –
posted by DownWithTyranny @ 9:01 PM
Copy the URL from the timestamp to post here and we’ll always be able to find it once it scrolls off the main page.
I’m still laughing so hard I could hardly type this out. Morning All! Too bad I missed the Late Nite, good times remembering the old redstate racists & Co nights shreiking at us for exposing them.
looseheadprop @ 10
When we took the kids on a car trip, the answer to Are We There Yet was always, “20 more minutes.”
lhp you still in DC?
egregious at 108 — Yes. Do you possibly think that we would all have worked our butts off for all these months just to ignore the verdict? *g* Jane is in DC, I’m on e-mail notification stand-by with the courthouse as well.
Good Morning, Firepups,
Once again, because it can’t be said often enough, thanks to everyone here–our lovely proprietresses, the front page posters, and the wonderful community of commenters–for all the work and thinkin’ and linkin’ during the trial. You have been fabulous.
My hopes (my predictions):
Scooter guilty on all counts (Scooter guilty on the perjury counts)
Murtha’s supplemental bill passes with overwhelming support (the troops are out of Iraq in 2008)
Darth Cheney and the Deciderer found guilty of war crimes in the Hague
Work for peace, every day.
Prairie Sunshine @ 25
Well, if nobody’s pointed it out yet (I haven’t finished reading all the comments), recklessless should read recklessly.
old gold @ 105
We do know for certain that not one of them was from the Bush family. It is probably safe to assume that not one of them knew anyone related to the Bush family. We also know that while the British Royal family serves in the British military, not one member of the Royal Bush family serves our nation in any way. They only take.
Thanks for the post, Scarecrow– you have really laid out a great case. Bush is
complicit.responsible, too.wrt to Hugh’s point @ 100– Rory Kennedy who made the Ghosts of Abu Ghraib had a Wapo chat yesterday and this is what she had to say about this:
and
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..tml?sub=AR
SPCPA (94) — Been through that Wikipedia entry a few times this year. Hope lhp took note of the “evil purpose” modifier.
But I just noted for the first time at that entry there is a reference to 18 USC 1030, Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, and 18 USC 2701, Stored Communications Act.
Remember Emptywheel’s recent post commenting on Fitz’ outlining the scope of his investigation as he began inquiry with Libby in front of GJ? EW pointed out that Fitz referred to theft of government property — and EW took it as validation of the possible theft of a hard drive by someone who might claim they weren’t too big on email.
Why would Fitz go with theft of government property instead of 18 USC 1030 and/or 18 USC 2701?
Is Fitz trying to sidle up to the disclosed NIE as theft in order to avoid greymail? Or is the missing property the note about which EW posted yesterday at TNH?
Dick Cheney truly frightens me. He is what makes movies and television shows with secret agencies taking over the world believable.
I think the basic problem is that it is very difficult to communicate to large numbers of people precisely why his way of thinking and operating is so dangerous to our society as a whole. It is obvious he and his gang are up to extremely evil stuff (and truly, his outing of Valerie Plame is probably small potatoes compared to the other stuff we fear–this is NOT to downplay the import of what he did to Plame and the obstruction of the investigation, rather to underscore the depth of his tentacles in the depravity).
The issue is how, in a country where the MSM is either impotent or complacent, to connect the necessity to rise up against the Neocon hegemony in a meaningful way to the general population.
I’ve just depressed myself so thoroughly that I think I better get ready to get up the preschooler and go talk about the Odyssey and Stagecoach…
froggermarch,
Above you say the following:
I’m curious about your parenthetical statement: did you mean that there’s no distinction between the procedural requirements and grounds for classifying vs. declassifying, or did you mean that there’s no distinction between classification vs. declassification authority?
Rayne @ 90
Ahh, Rayne, you give hydra a bad name
I get off work at 2:00 today. At that time I will leave work, stop to pick up a few groceries, go home and calmly have a nervous breakdown.
Christy Hardin Smith @
58
How about discussions of capital punishment (which I oppose) and why specific Vice Presidents may be”eligible”?
knut wicksell @ 100
What an American Tragedy that was, knut wicksell. It must have deeply scarred (and scared) everyone in his classes. That teacher’s story should be dramatized and shown on every theatre stage in the USA. Stories like his are, unfortunately, legion. Where O where are Arthur Miller (“Death of a Salesman”), Harper Lee (“To Kill a Mockingbird”) or Jerome Lawrence and Robert Edwin Lee (“Inherit the Wind”) when we need them?
Citizen Jane -
I’m not too embarassed to admit they’ve turned me in to a ‘fundie’ in that I now believe in teh Anti-Christ – as a collective body and not the single being they’ve been warning us about X~(
Rayne @ 6:57 am -
Was the NIE stored on a computer and/or disseminated electronically? If not, 18 USC 1030 and/or 18 USC 2701 might not apply. I haven’t looked at 18 USC 2701, but will do so as soon as time permits. I want to look at 18 USC 793(d) again.
Shez @ 113
Thanks, Shez – I just figured it out.
up in Alaska, composing Rachel Corrie ;)
John at 126 — I am particularly tired and achy this morning, and catching up from travel. And our moderators have been working their collective butts off behind the scenes for weeks to keep the blog humming along with a minimum of furor coming out of the comments. I am certain that was meant as a joke — and a nudge at my plea for civility about a Vice President who has certainly more than earned his share of disgust and ire with his conduct in office — but I am asking everyone to please think before they hit send.
Because I’m trying to write my first article of the day, which takes time and mental energy, neither of which I have have in abundance at the moment. And the same can be said for our moderators. And each and every time I have to take a peek at something questionable, and they have to pull it back…well, that takes up time that ought to have been spent elsewhere. Just please, everyone, think before you hit submit. That is all that I am asking.
Howie Klein @
88
Oh good lord…what are you waiting for, Joe? Go, go, go over to the side where you can be among your own kind.
We’ll manage without you somehow.
Citizen Jane @ 104
You’ve already got the computer. Hopefully you’ve got a fast ‘NetConnection and enuf disposable simoleons to feed your need for progressive talk.
We just recently lost our AAR affiliate in Boston, but it makes no diff to my audio lifestyle. Why? Four more words that work for me:
AAR
Premium
iPod
Podcast
:)
cbl (128) — oh, I don’t know…I tend to think “they” are more like the demon depicted in Fallen, except “they” are simultaneously occupied.
Ugh. Perhaps more like the Borg.
SOS in MA “Check me out on this, other firepups, but I was appalled to hear that in recent years (prolly since the Reagan era) the teaching of Civics has virtually disappeared from our public school”
Wasn’t it Reagan who wanted to eliminate the Department of Education altogether?
After all the upcoming, inevitable impeachment smoke has cleared, and we are, as a nation, stepping out of the Bush-era cloud, I believe organizations like FDL, MoveOn, DFA, and so many others should consider channeling their influence and money into civics education for YOUNG PEOPLE!
Bill Cosby (fat albert) and Ahnold (kindergarten cop) both realized their images depended on making new, young fans.
So why not re-consider the term “firepup” not as a newbie to the blog, but as a young person who has learned more about our government from this site?
Just food for thought, if our public schools are muscled out of the civics education business, then lets find a way to fill the void, if we (the blogs, FDL and MoveOn in particular) can force the truth from this gang of liars, we could surely come up with some entertaining and educational civics games for the 5-10 year olds to play on their Macs and PC’s.
I wonder just how much that late-20th-Century abdication of civics education in the classroom has affected the public’s ability to make the right decision when they vote?
Between prop 13 and the conservative agenda, we have created a nation of stupified zombies, all primed and prepped for Faux News “programming.”
Christy Hardin Smith @ 132
You’re asking the richest community of “Thinkers” I’ve ever seen.
John Forde (126) — keep in mind that the mods are probably swatting away like crazy at the horde of gnats that arrived last night and are likely to linger for a while. Too much red meat, no sense tossing them more.
Although I certainly appreciate your line of inquiry…
cbl @
52
ROFL! You go!!!
Scarecrow your post is an outstanding piece of work. It lucidly summarizes so much of the harm that Cheney has done, and it is beautifully articulated. Because your post is so good, I am reluctant to find fault with a piece of it. However, I can’t help myself. The paragraph – “Dick Cheney is the guy who then conspired with and directed Libby to discredit Joe Wilson, including a scheme to recklessly and deliberately leak a CIA agent’s employment and position to the media, without considering her classified status or the potential harm and risks this disclosure might have for Valerie Wilson, her CIA unit, their operations, her cover or the safety and lives of those she worked with in the intelligence community.” is speculative! It may have been reckless. OTOH given that Cheney is: intelligent; a micromanager; and experienced in handling classified info, it is also quite possible that he did know precisly not only that Valerie Plame was a covert agent but also that she was working on looking for details about any WMD in Iraq and also in Iran. Thus, the “shooter” may well have thought that he had a two for one shot that would preclude anyone finding fault with the myth that Iran has, or will soon have, nuclear weapons. Cheny is evil and the long range plan is Iraq is just step one to be followed by Iran, etc. I apologize for finding fault with your excellent post, but I think we should keep in mind just how sinister his overall long range is and the devasting harm it may cause.
I am personally against the death penalty in ALL cases. Actually, I am of the opinion that death is the easy way out for truly heinous criminals, since they are at that moment put out of their misery–a form of euthanasia, if you will.
I would much rather see Cheney join the Blind Sheik at the Supermax where he is never allowed to lay eyes on another human being, other than his jailers.
Cheney is honorable in the Shakespearean sense:
“For Brutus is an honorable man, So are they all, all honorable men.”
Shakespeare: champion of snark.
I was just musing about all the things Fitz could go after Cheney for. Conspiracy, cover up, violation of the IIPA, leaking classified documents, even leaking “declassified” documents to protect his reputation, perjury, lying to the FBI, war profiteering, conspiracy to forge documents leading to war – the list goes on and on.
Truly amazing.
Rory Kennedy really looks like Bobby Kennedy. Ghosts of Abu Ghraib.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 131
Preview is my friend.
(That’s got to be the greatest technical addition to a blog in forever. My thanks to the techies, either here at FDL or at WordPress, for making it possible.)
SPCPA (129) –
18 USC 1030 – Fraud and related activity in connection with computers
18 USC 2710 – Unlawful access to stored communications
Ugh, I don’t know, either is rather iffy, could see where under either statute Libby’s defense would argue Libby had authority to nick his hard drive — although it would certainly look strange that a guy who’s no geek would do so.
I guess after mulling this over I don’t buy the theory that a hard drive was nicked. I think the reference to theft applies to another item. Maybe a disposable cell phone…
Just gotta say, msnbc and the rest of the MSM driven to tabloid trash sewage. Shame on you.
Where is the reporting on things like Rory Kennedy’s incredible Ghosts of Abu Ghraib?
Where is the reporting on the philosophical linkages between refusal to oversee/hold hearings on Katrina, treatment of war veterans.
Where is the reporting on war profiteers [oh, I forgot, that’s your corporate daddies.]
No, instead, we get pimping the sad, sad stories of mentally ill women: astronaut, Anna Nicole, Britney, among ‘em.
And the difference between cable “newsiness” and Ted Bundy is?????????????????
In case you hadn’t seen it, US News and World Report has a poll going on who is the worst president of US:
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/n…..m#content4
through sheer intuition, have correctly surmised one major facet of the trial story so far, but am suddenly way too superstitious to discuss prior to the verdict -
that said, the gut is saying 1:18
Citizen Jane @ 121
Mulder was right all along.
scarecrow,
I would have to go back to the original language of the bill. The MCA absolves from responsibility for war crimes (torture) any government employee and makes that retroactive to 1997 and I believe gives Bush the power to decide what a war crime was or more specifically whether a breach of the Geneva Conventions was a minor breach (which I believe would not be pursuable under the law) or major (which would be). So Bush can just say that torture is not torture and that this non-torture torture consitutes a minor breach only.
Either way, this is not weak or diluted language since it actually strengthens Bush’s power to sanction coercive interrogation techniques which are for most of the world recognized as torture. The weak language if there was any came from the likes of McCain who lamely suggested IIRC that this would not include waterboarding, a technique that Cheney and Bush have both refused to rule out.
Last year I got a subscription to Harper’s because I love their articles. Well. ever since, my mailbox is stacked with junk mail. The reason I know Harper’s sold my info is because I purposely spelled my first name wrong just to see what would happen. It is the first & last time that I open up my privacy to Harper’s.
Scarecrow @
22
Shortly after that happened, Bush admitted that it he selectively declassified that information.
rocket scientist — read my words again. They do not assume that Cheney/Libby knew and deliberately leaked Plame’s classified covert status. What Libby leaked, apparently at Cheney’s direction, was Plame’s “employment and position.” Whether or not they knew her classified status, I then suggest that leaking what they did, without considering her possible status and the risks to classified information, was reckless.
Christy, my thoughts and energy are with you and the entire FDL crew. It’s Friday and I think we’re all exhausted and hoping against hope for some justice in this sad world of ours. You’re all the best.
Resuming my lurk/peanut gallery status…
BTW, you go LHP. Unravel that thread.
Darth Cheney deserves to be in the dock at the War Crimes Tribunal at the Hague. And after that, a special place in the lower rings of Hades.
dab_from_CT @ 142
Fitz may be constrained by the terms of his appointment in the scope of his further investigations. Which may be why his close so forcefully empowers the Congress. To hold hearings? To consider impeachment? To direct Fitz to dig deeper? And to write a report.
So much to litigate, so little time!
I am convinced that the tendrils of the Hydra reach deep into the current AIPAC case and the Sibel Edmonds information as well. The outing of Plame was really a three-fer or a four-fer, as it effectively demolished the BJ investigation into the AQ Khan network and prevented them from exposing the Admin plan to plant WMDs in Iraq.
I keep quoting that Lily Tomlin line “I’m trying to be cynical, but I just can’t keep up.”
ccmask @ 151
It’s hopeless, they’re all doing it. I been a Harper’s reader for decades, love it. These subscription operations are all outsourced, BTW. Ya got unseen 3rd parties trafficking in your data all the time. Sux.
_
Rocket scientist @ 139,
I too have always had a problem with the use of the term “reckless” in this regard. It gives the Administration the benefit of the doubt where IMO the evidence simply doesn’t warrant it. The Admin’s treatment of classified information in the Plame/Wilson case may at best have been unbelievably reckless, but it is infinitely more likely that there wasn’t the slightest thing “reckless” about it.
“Just please, everyone, think before you hit submit. That is all that I am asking.”
I’ve spent a lot of blog time trashing Annie (get your gun) Coulter for her deadly suggestions, so I agree with Christy here, one redhead to another, keep the hard-core hate to yourselves, it is an easy line to draw between unveiled threats and frivolous jousting.
chady @ 124
The typical day here.
KM @ 122
‘Scuse me for being a buttinsky here but imho (and IANAL) all this discussion of “insta-declassification” is beside the major point. Even granting the diaphanous assumption that POTUS or VPOTUS can insta-declassify the NIE so they can leak it to anyone they want whenever they want, because (paraphrasing TrickyDick the First) “when the Executive Branch does it, that means it is not illegal” — said power certainly would NOT include the FELONIOUS TREASONOUS outing of a CIA NOC agent (who had for years served her country bravely and without hope of ever being rescued should she fall into enemy hands!) as a purely political revenge attack.
Nor would such a mythical “insta-declassification right” include the ability to commit the wilful and even yet more FELONIOUS and TREASONOUS destruction of a laboriously constructed brass plate organization whose primary purpose was understanding WMD proliferation in the middle east.
I’ve long agreed with the position taken by Randi Rhodes of AAR: that the outing of Plame and Brewster Jennings was a death threat against the intelligence community, and part of a “threefer” hatched in Cheney’s evil brain, to wit:
1. Leak Ms. Plame Wilson (blowing her cover and destroying her further usefulness as a NOC for our country) and the notion that “she nepotistically sent Joe on a junket, as a boondoggle” in an attempt to discredit him;
2. Issue a thinly-veiled death threat against the intel community: “We Will Kill You If You Try To Stop This War!” and finally
3. Destroy Brewster Jennings (and cause many deaths amongst its staff and contacts), which was the CIA’s anti-WMD eyes and ears in the middle east — so that his own twisted intel could be used to sandbag a credulous pReznit and American People into going to war.
Fortunately, the CIA filed suit, Joe Wilson pushed back, and the melting process got underway. Pay attention to the mobsters behind the curtain, America.
Am I wrong on this, FellowFirePups?
I havent had time to read the whole thread but what has happened to The Wilsons private case against Cheney and the gang?
I sometimes wonder what a Bush Presidency would have been without Dick Cheney. I think that even with 911 it might have gone down as a one term mediocrity. It is a testament to Dick Cheney that he was able to transform something that was destined to be non-descript into a complete and thorough going disaster of monumental proportions.
S.O.S. in MA @ 161
Trying to find “reasonable doubt” to those assertions. Hmmmm…difficult.
_
egregious @161- Maybe a GUILTY verdict will come in before 2:00 & allow me to keep what little sanity I have left.
Hugh @ 151
I think we agree. Note that I did not use the terms “weak or diluted language.” I referred to “watered down restriction of torture” which seems to apply to the examples you cite. I meant “restrictions on the ability to use torture.” Am I missing your point?
Prairie Sunshine @ 149
If only there were a basement office . . .
1,436 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Scarecrow and the Firepup Patriots:
“He would first humbly apologize to the nation and beg for forgiveness.
And then he would resign.”
No dear friend, first he would resign, then he would be tried for war crimes at the Hague and then he would be rendered to the Syrians…
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THESE BASTARDS STILL HOLD POWER!!
I know that we will probably never have Cheney be sworn in to answer questions about his role after 9ll, but I can’t get the image of him out of my mind ordering NORAD to stand down. It’s stronger in my mind than Bush numbly and impotently sitting in a classroom before flying off to personal safety.
He’s a treasonous criminal.
Please jury give us the truth back.
KM @ 159
I see I probably misread rocket’s meaning? I haven’t claimed “deliberate” because it’s not clear that was proved at trial (and there was no effort to prove a crime that was not charged). We can speculate about this, but I can’t prove it.
Hugh @ 163
Recall the GW was appointed to office simply to provide Clinton scandal relief eye candy cover for the looting of the federal till by cronies. Then 9/11 made him self-appointed Savior of Mankind. Absent 9/11 they might not have lasted beyond one term, given Bush’s demonstrated disinterest in the boring shit of actually governing. Enron et al were gonna happen anyway, which would have pushed the Gooper bidness lackey taint to the fore rather than having to vy with “The Terrists ‘R Comin’, Folks!!!” ad nauseum.
_
LaFourmiRouge @ 157
I heard an anoouncement this morning, but only a WSJ link, that Ahmed Chalabi will heading much of the security decisions in the current/coming ‘crackdown’…now, there’s a name that appears in many investigations.
Vilsack’s out.
Now back to more Anna Nicole newsiness….
snowbird42 @ 163
IANAL but I’m not anal…
Seems to me the civil casejust got some great evidence that can not be kept out of the civil courtroom. Once it’s on the books it’s “fair game,” to quote our favorite Turd.
(I’m sick of that sweet-flower qualifier, so henceforth, I’m dropping the “blossom” part, I imagine everyone will know who I’m talking about.)
cbl @ 27
Morning, all.
Tying together the many cases of abuse, torture, extraordinary rendition, treatment of “enemy combatants”, to the reports about how our own soldiers are treated is shocking – but it does indicate a very clear pattern with this admin (which I think is led in spirit by Cheney. They will use, abuse, and treat people in the most inhumane, undemocratic, unjust ways in order to get whatever they want. To them, people are expendible. They endorse torture (but pretend they don’t, until they get caught), they endorse kidnappings and “disappearing” of people around the world (but pretend they don’t, until they get caught). They will expose a covert CIA agent and put the agent and her team, and all of their contacts in danger for political gain (but pretend they didn’t, until they get caught).
Meanwhile, they ignore the needs of the troops – sending men and women without proper equipment or training for the dangerous duties they’ve been sent into. Sending them back without adequate time between missions. Re-classifying injuries and deaths to cook the numbers (by insisting that soldiers whose trucks were blown up by an IED while they were delivering supplies are not “combat-related” injuries, but instead “regular duties”, therefore keeping them off the official dead & wounded rolls). Refusing to allow their caskets to be shown. Ignoring the families of the war dead who aren’t willing to praise the President. Telling soldiers who are injured that they are disinvited to a Presidential speech if they don’t disguise the fact that they are amputees. Sending the permanently injured, like PTSD victims, back into battle.
And then, there is the care of our injured war men & women in bases around the world, and here in the US. Don’t forget that behind every person directly involved in this war, there is a family behind – people that often are struggling with physical and mental issues as a result of this war. Suicides and violence of soldiers returning from Iraq and Afghanistan are at a high rate, as medical care for them and their families is inadequate.
It makes me sick to see how careless Cheney and his minions are about the well-being of the people they use.
Dick Cheney is not a good man. He is someone who fully endorses the “use them to get what you want” mentality. He is a war profiteer and a power hungry man. He will never apologize for what he has done, and he will never resign. He will be in office until January 2009. Our best hope is that he is politically shackled by investigations, and he can’t continue to cause more harm to our nation and the people for the next 23 months.
Per CNN –
Gates up “shortly” (whatever that means) in presser WRT the situation at Walter Reed.
Update – “Live, in moments.”
chady @ 166
For newcomers to this thread: my #96 might help you not miss it … :)
Vilsack to withdraw today from Dem. Presidential race according to MSNBC
The Angry Black Bitch is ready for the Jury Verdict:
Not a bad strategy!
Where’s the Vilsack link?
Last night I saw Cheney on TV say that nuclear weapons against Iran are not off the table.
Gates speaking live now regarding conditions at Walter Reed.
JEP @ 181
AP: Ex-Iowa Gov. Vilsack ending ‘08 bid
@cbl Re: Kristof
it’s today Friday feb 23
NYT, you know since NYT has that select subscription you have to go to technorati or blogspot and do a search and find an intrepid soul that has posted it. I”d post the whole thing here but it would be a copyright violation.
” Nicholas D. Kristof: Bush and Cheney Owe an Explanation
One way or another, the Scooter Libby trial will soon be over. Whatever the verdict, President Bush and Vice President Cheney owe the American people a candid explanation of what went on in that period in the White House.” “
Kristof is being disingenousness and ignoring their right not to incriminate themselves. Back in old England, things were easier, the King did no wrong.
the most ridiculous thing to be uttered by someone in the Bush administration:
“With responsibility comes accountability” – Robert Gates, just now.
I guess he didn’t get the memo. Bush admin doesn’t do accountability.
(Summary of his speech: he has a nice bi-partisan sounding commission that will review what’s going on. I wonder if their recommendations will be applied just like those of the 9/11 Commission and the Baker/Hamilton Iraq Study Group.)
OT–
What’s with tears in courtrooms this week? First, Ted Wells in DC. Then Judge Larry Seidlin at the ghoulish Anna Nicole Smith saga in Florida.
too late moron, there is no “mission”, you’ve destabalied planet earth, our armed forces completed their mission years ago
as far as “doing it right”, you’re assinine decisions makes it impossible to “do it right”, it’s YOU that did it wrong, you’re depraved “strategy” as destroyed our honor and made it impossible to “return with honor”, you’ver brought dishonor to our armed forces
Biodun @ 187
I think the judge in Florida realized it was his last moment in front of the cameras, so he wanted to make it dramatic. Maybe it wasn’t contrived, but who knows.
Wells – I guess it’s his standard mode of operation. Like Olbermann said, “you don’t cry at a perjury trial!”
Will @ 185
“Boooshyyy — you got some ’splainin’ to dooo…” :)
lhp:
I ran this search through Google and got lots of hits from April last year:
site:www.firedoglake.com mary declassification
Mostly from the 7th through the 20th, but there’s stuff after. Big day seems to be April 13th.
http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/04/13…..-analysis/
http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/04/13/winds-of-destiny/
http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/04/13…..ew-filing/
http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/04/09…..gton-post/
http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/04/11/here-we-go-again/
http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/04/07/wheres-the-stamp/
http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/04/06/out-of-control/
http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/04/06…..-question/
Hi S.O.S. (@ 162),
Don’t get me wrong, I of course think that whether or not Cheney did in fact have the authority to declassify classified information that had been originally classified by another originating agency, his actions were unquestionably reprehensible and quite possibly illegal to boot, on so many levels. Whether it was the NIE whose leak he “authorised” (as Libby et al. claim) or whether in fact it was Plame’s CIA identity that was in fact the real subject of the Addington, Cheney, Bush, etc. meetings (as EW has in-not-so-many-words suggested).
But it is still worth asking the questions about Cheney’s authority to declassify information he hadn’t originally classified. Because that is still extremely contestable, and I don’t want to concede that to him if in fact he doesn’t have it. Why should we grant that one to the bad guys, as many seem to have done? Are we worried that if in fact it can be shown that Cheney does in fact have the authority, that will somehow weaken our case, somehow make what he did any less evil? Nonsense!
Furthermore, there are many other questions that arise from this issue, questions that I think people for the most part haven’t been asking. I mentioned one in my #109 above — did Cheney ever in fact actually declassify (portions of) the NIE before Libby disseminated it to Judy Miller, or did he just tell (”authorise”) Libby to go ahead and leak that still-classified information? (For there are certainly signs of a pattern with this Admin of the latter — e.g. the aluminum tubes leaks to Judy Miller in Sept/02.) There are other questions as well, and many of them don’t even occur to one until one starts to explore the very murky national-security and constitutional question of Cheney’s self-proclaimed declassification authority. So I do think this is something very much worth pursuing, something which, far from detracting from, actually complements and strengthens and our emphasis on the various other ways in which the cabal’s actions were outrageous, immoral, and very possibly illegal.
scarecrow #166,
It is perhaps that I don’t see any restriction on torture in the MCA rather the reverse. But overall we do agree.
Here by the way is some of the language of the bill. I didn’t find the 9 year amnesty which I saw in an article on this but that might be a reference outside the bill text.
And
Darth Cheney on Pelosi’s patriotism and aiding and abetting the enemy:
If the federal courts allowed cameras in just for closing arguments, this case would get twice the coverage of the MSM.
Just a general question:
Are there subjects which are frowned upon by the moderators here? Of course, death threats or wishes are rightly censored with a heavy hand, but my question is much more broad.
Say, for instance, I mention Sibel Edmonds, A.Q. Khan, or the case brought against Larry Franklin for giving classified info to AIPAC. Are these things judged not germaine to the general discussion of Cheney’s machinations?
Just wondering – I want to be able to contribute something to the discussion without “coloring outside the lines”.
[Mod Note; none of those subjects are out of line for a general discussion topic or if germaine to the front page post. Some terms may be trapped by the moderations filters and require the moderators to manually release them. During any live blogging, we ask that comments stay specifically on the topic. Moderators have specific instructions to moderate any comments that refer to violence,or threats thereof, against any person. Hope that helps.]
Biodun @ 194
The fun part?
*Facepalm*
The man is a menace to rational discourse everywhere.
Anyone know where Mary has been
I have missed her comments
cbl @
148
1:18 – which time zone? When will the jury break for lunch?
More from Darth:
here’s something to give us all a little bit of optimizm;
the jury is looking to establish a timeline and graphs
as far as I can see that means they have discarded the memory defense
Listen to Cheney:
“That’s their fundamental underlying strategy, that if they can kill enough Americans or cause enough havoc, create enough chaos in Iraq, then we’ll quit and go home.”
Voila. He’s wiped himself clean.
KM @ 192
… But it is still worth asking the questions about Cheney’s authority to declassify information he hadn’t originally classified. Because that is still extremely contestable, and I don’t want to concede that to him if in fact he doesn’t have it. Why should we grant that one to the bad guys, as many seem to have done? …
Excellent points all, and a good example of the general acuity of insight that keeps me a regular reader hereabouts. I’m in your debt, KM. Tnx.
Great post, scarecrow-thanks.
Although I can barely contain my outrage at what Cheney (and Bush) have done to our country, I am somewhat chastened by the fact that, we, the American people, allowed them to assume power. Blame fraud, blame SCOTUS, blame the Republicans…it is OUR country, and we bear the responsibility for our leaders’ actions.
However, there is hope. On our side we have the FDL community, and thousands (millions!?) of like-minded people who continue working for political change in our nation. We have Fitz, who I know is not “ours” but who, nonetheless, is seeking the truth regardless of the political consequences. And we have the absolute moral certainty that what Cheney and Bush represent is an abomination to human decency.
Biodun @ 187
Tears R Us
FORT CAMPBELL, Ky. — A U.S. soldier broke down in tears in court as he described his role in the gang rape and slaying of a 14-year-old Iraqi girl and the killing of her family last year.
http://www.chron.com/disp/stor…..72928.html
-
Per Gates -
Supposedly this report “to be completed w/in 45 days & made available to Congress and the public.”
“There have been some people most directly involved who have been relieved.”
Naturally, CNN shows maybe two questions from reporters and cuts to something *more important.” grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
MSNBC = all Anna, all the time.
Hugh — It’s possible we’re missing each other’s meanings. In my post, I meant to say that (1) even McCain, who supposedly wanted to restrict the use of torture (2) had to negotiate with Cheney to preserve the restrictions McCain wanted, but (3) Cheney ulimately beat McCain so that (4) the MCA does not restrict torture in the way McCain and other torture oponents wanted.
I wasn’t claiming that the MCA imposed a “restriction on torture.” If anything, it lessed the previous restrictions — hence my use of the terms “watered down.” do we agree?
i think the friday thinking about the jury is correct; that they will finish today. I think they will reach a verdict (PLEASE, times infinity, PLEASE, guilty) and that they’ll have their lunch and them come in.!!!!
I like this vigorous summary of the Libby case from the wires:
Biodun @
200
That’s our Dick. Lookin’ to get into fisticuffs with a San Francisco grandmother.
In the matter of declassification, originating authority, supervisory authority and/or those officially designated to execute assigned performances…(13292)… in matters of national security, defense, public interest, emergency…
I’d say the dynamic duo has it covered with GWB as ‘ultimate supervisory authority’ and Deadeye as his dysfunctional delegated authority.
Well, I am now pretty discouraged, after my last two posts have never made it onto the page. Perhaps I have been (mistakenly) judged to be a troll.
I post all over the net with the same handle – anyone who has read my meager offerings really has no basis to conclude that I am any sort of subversive – just a simple guy who would like to be, in some small way, a contributing member of the community.
But it is your right to delete my posts, of course, for any reason or none at all, so I will refrain from adding my 2 cents and go back to lurking. It’s what I do best. ‘bye.
I think that it is interesting that the jury has not made any requests for testimony to be read back to them. To me that says that a good portion of the panel has a good recall (or notes) of the main points of the testimony….
In other words, while they can’t possibly remember who said what, when word for word, they do have the capacity to hone in on the salient points.
Just my hopeful musings!
The irony is that Cheney/Bush’s actions have played precicesly into al Quaeda’s stated goals, weakening secular governments in the Gulf aned providing an unifying energy to the aQ cause.
Stratfor [admittedly out of context]:
“The United States’ military response to the 9/11 attacks was the reaction al Qaeda wanted and expected. The statements of al Qaeda leaders have made it clear that the jihadists’ goal was to make sure these became protracted, painful and costly wars.
“
Fresh thread, up and running for everyone.
uptown @ 206
I’m thinking they go into next week.
_
Hi Scarecrow (@ 171),
First off, congrats again on a great and quite comprehensive post.
But you did specifically say “deliberate”, in fact in direct conjunction with the word “reckless”:
Now strictly speaking those two words aren’t necessarily in contradiction with one another, but I do think that depending on what is meant by “deliberately”, there is a pretty powerful tension between them.
Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s generally a good idea to be cautious about one’s claims, and you’re right that legally speaking the deliberate nature of the outing hasn’t been demonstrated (or even claimed, as of yet). But IMO we need neither wait on Fitzgerald to pursue the investigation further nor worry about standards of legal demonstration. We can certainly make causal and other judgements of the sort that historians will soon be making and debating, and I think there can be no doubt that the most plausible inference, given the currently available evidence, is that there was a conscious and deliberate conspiracy to out Valerie Plame.
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 31
I would like to see this question posed to every presidential canidate: “In view of all that has happened in the past six years, have you seen any evidence of war crimes committed by present or previous officials of the Bush administration”? This question should be followed by a request for a simple “yes” or “no” answer.
RBG Note; Please see the mod note at this comment above.
LaFourmiRouge @ 212
Ummm, they seem to be there now, at 157 and 196.
QuentinCompson @ 205
He’ll be eligible for parole in 10 years? This is our standard of accountability in the miltary that Gates claimed?
Christy has a NEW THREAD
Whether Libby is acquitted or convicted, at least one lesson came out of the trial. AP’s Matt Apuzzo on how the Libby trial revealed flaws in note-taking in general:
Or rather Christy does. The other guy just lurks.
mack @ 198
No, she comments occasionally. I saw a comment from her within the last week. FDLers were worried about how her horses would survive the latest cold-snap. She had some typically witty Mary comeback
that loses a lot in my translationabout being the frequent target of equine disdain.Big hat tip to PJ Evans for the link to Mary on declassification.
Scarecrow @ 221
hiccup
Thankyou Scarecrow.
A wonderful post.
An honorable person would…
Cheney has proved over & over how dispiccable, how totally dishonorable he is.
I’m sounding like a broken record these days.
No matter.
!IMPEACH!
If Bush had any sense of decency at all, he would force Cheney’s resignation. This horrible man has been a blight on our nation and the world.
LaFourmiRouge — No one is deleting your posts. Our traffic is vast at the moment and sometimes longish posts or posts with lots of links, etc., get trapped in the spam filters and it takes a bit for us to go in and manually free them one by one. Why is it that everyone always jumps on the “stop censoring me” bandwagon instead of understanding that we have VOLUNTEER moderators who are working their asses off — and that I was writing an article which took a little time and couldn’t give them an additional hand?
Jeebus, I know everyone is a little nervous waiting for the jury to come back, but everything is not some monumental conspiracy. Sometimes, it’s a tech issue and we haven’t gotten to it yet because we are exhausted and working our collective asses off. And a little patience from everyone on that would be very much appreciated indeed.
(And, for the record, I just checked the above thread and your comments are there.)
rumi @ 211:
You’re right that if Cheney wanted to declassify the NIE over Tenet’s head, there would have been more than one way for him to go about it. But the same question I asked earlier (did he in fact declassify the NIE, irrespective of his authority to do so?) applies equally to any of those other methods. Did Bush in fact actually, formally delegate his declassification authority in that specific case to Cheney? Just because he could have didn’t mean it happened, and there are so many other cases with this Admin where classified info was simply leaked — not declassified — that it makes a lot of sense to be sceptical.
scarecrow,
Great post as usual. I could see the steam rising from your head as you wrote it.
Scarecrow @
22
you asked about his quote. It is from MTP Sept. 10 2006
LaFourmiRouge @ 212
Some posts get caught in the automatic moderation filters, which are used to sort out electronic spam. If you used words like “vi*gra” or “insu*ance”, that’s likely what happened. Wait a bit, and the moderators will free them up.
Also, sometimes the toobz get stuck and the occasional comment disappears for no particular reason. Given that Christy was just loading the new thread, it’s possible that’s what happens.
FDL doesn’t moderate out comments which take issue with the poster or other comments, so hang in there. (Comments that advocate violence, or are filled with personal ad hominem attacks, on the other hand, will be deleted. See Christy’s comment above @ 58.)
Don’t let the glitches get you down!
Oh Christy!
You are so good to us.
Sometimes you must feel as if you’re expected to have 3 brains and 16 hands.
{{{{{HUGS}}}}}
chs @ 227 right on!
sometimes a banana is just a ???
it’s not good to pout in public.
KM @ 228
No, I think the selective declassification of portions of that NIE were done by Bush and verified through the testimony of Addington and others, right? The dissemination may have been delegated but that particular authorization was testified as being authorized by Bush.
new thread
LaFourmiRouge @ 212
You got a tip ‘o the hat in the new thread.
Scarecrow.
tiny typo?
2nd line of 2nd paragraph under pic of caged prisoners..
“then” should be “them” ?
Further language from Military Appropriations Bills for 2006
H.R.2863 SEC. 1004. [same language as SEC. 1404. of HR 1815]
Might as well write this here, no need for it to get EPU’d. LaFourmiRouge, I met you first over in the GabblyChat and you are a Fine Person. I too noticed that after posting something, it doesn’t automagically appear right then; but a ^R after a bit shows it to be in place. Tnx mods, I can’t imagine the bots that are attacking this place. Keep on truckin.
Now onto the new thread… Go Jury!! I too am starting to like the “one last free lunch” theory :)
Adie @ 237
Thanks. I’ll fix.
scarecrow #206
Yes, we agree.
Prairie Sunshine @
30
While I love Keith Olbermann, I am revoted by the parade of incompetents (Wolff, Fineman, Alter) he has on his show for “comments.” [As an aside, he does have some “good guys” like Larry Johnson, but they’re not as “regular” as the Drivel Patrol.]
Does NBC force him to give airtime to these toads?
rumi @ 234,
Sorry, should have been more specific. We know that select portions of the NIE were ultimately declassified — after all, they were released to the public on July 18. The question is, were portions of the NIE formally declassified (and if so, were they the same portions that were later released to the public) prior to July 8 (when Libby passed them along to Judy Miller)?
Anyone else have to refresh more than once if you move to another web page, then come back to FDL? I’ll read one of my posts, go looking for another link or reference elswewhere, come back via my “back” arrow and it shows a much earlier, short list of postings…
Every time you move away from the comments column and go back to it, it might be good to refreshi it, I’m on IE now, but Firefox works OK, too. Wish I still had my mac, can’t say if Safari does the same thing…
P J Evans @
191
Nice work, P.J.!! Hadn’t finished all those yet, you beat me to them!! And now back to reading…
If he were in Canada, only 10% of what he has accomplished would bring the House of Commons to a standstill until he resigned as a sitting member.
rumi @ 241,
Am aware of that document. Note the use of the weasel word “authorised” (what does this mean?). Note also that the inference that the President saying “do what you need to do” in order to pass along sections of the NIE not to the general public, but to select reporters in secret (and under false attribution as a “former Hill staffer”) is actually legally tantamount to formal declassification is Addington’s alone, and his legal opinions are hardly uncontroversial.
In reverse chronological order:
My wish for our Vice President: “I hope Cheney gets the fair trial he is entitled to [and has done his best to deprive many others of] and that, if he is convicted, he is punished to the full extent of the law.”
The assertions in post #161 are consistent with my own understanding of what has happened, and why.
As for how Cheney could dare to use the word “honor”, the sense in which he understands it is no doubt different from mine, and probably yours. Back in the previous century, when I was a grad student at a large university in the Northeastern US, a friend from the psychology department told me this story about an incident that had exacerbated pre-existing ideological frictions there. A behaviorist and a psychoanalyst had met in the hallway, and the behaviorist said, “Good morning.” The psychoanalyst replied, “I wonder what you mean by that.” In the aftermath of the infighting this triggered, the chair of the department was replaced. Believe it or don’t.
JEP @ 245
Happens to me sometimes, on both Mac w/Firefox and pc.
KM – @ 243 – I don’t remember the exact dates without looking it up but it was prior to the meeting with Miller, and appeared to be the intention of timing the lunch with a disclosure. The opinion of Addington was a result of Libby doubting the integrity of the decisions, or trust in the EO13292 to hold up. He appeared to be not sold on the idea that this was legal.
I don’t think the spirit of the EO is genuine but so far, no credible challenge to it has been seen. The DOJ has leaned toward protecting Cheney’s privacy as in their protection of his visitor logs.
rumi (241), KM (248) –
In regard to this bit,
The defendant has been charged with perjury and false statements. During the course of the trial, Addington clearly indicated to him there were limitations on disclosure of certain classified information.
What’s the chances that the defendant lied about Addington’s opinion?
The other dog not barking in this bit is that Libby consulted Addington as an expert on national security law. Ever read Scooter’s resume? Scooter had absolutely no need to consult Addington — unless ADD was a useful tool.
Rayne @ 251
I think the logical explanation is that the crucial information was compartmentalized and also released (in leaks) the same way, with the intention that the media people would assemble the pieces to disclose the connections of Valerie, Wilson, “the wife”, Plame or Flame,… and not to ‘deliberately or intentionally disclose the identity of a covert agent, – in an attempt to circumvent and avoid the law.
Rayne 2 246
Read them? That’s for this weekend, when I have real time. Gotta run the search again, because there’s lots of pages of results. I just cherry-picked the first couple of pages there.
I as a black/Native American am sick of Dick Cheney. He is definitely right about China especially when it comes to Taiwan, but what irks me the most is his dumbass stubborness on Iraq. Cheney is full of bullshit that if Iraq fails, the WHOLE world would be unstable. That’s bullshit, there is no way failure to “referee a civil war” in Iraq, would end civilization. I hate Dick Cheney and I really wish he would just shut the fuck up sometimes. Maybe he should be more worried about his lesbian daughter instead of politics. However he is definitely right about China, but he’s the wrong man to talk about China when he’s full of bullshit himself. I’d be more happy to hear another person talk about China’s military threat than Dick Cheney. Especially since both Dick Cheney and Bush have turned their backs on Taiwan’s democracy while “preaching democracy in Iraq” and it’s not working. Taiwan is already a democracy. America has its priorities in the wrong place at the wrong time. Instead of being in Iraq, we should’ve been in Afghanistan and more focused on China and N. Korea’s military buildup plus doing more to support Taiwan’s democracy and other human rights issues in the world including China’s support of the Sudan regime. Now we’re going to pay for this shit in the long-run thanks to Dick Cheney’s false hopes on Iraq. The next American president will have to deal with Bush/Cheney’s mess in Iraq and bullshit diplomacy. Thanks a lot Dick!!!
He would first humbly apologize to the nation and beg for forgiveness.
And then he would resign.
He needs to be arrested by the Capitol Police and held for investigation of treason.
Whenever I hear someone (like Cheney) speak of honor, I am reminded of Ralph Waldo Emerson’s
take:
“But what struck me was the absurdity that Dick Cheney, the man who’s words and actions have brought more dishonor on the United States than almost anyone in our lifetimes, would presume to lecture us on the concept of honor. “
The same absurdity comes when Bush talks of Freedom. This is a man who will never be able to walk down the streets of his own beloved america without protection ever again. Can’t take a drive along the coast with the top down, wife under his arm. Can’t stop for a bag of chips. Nothing. He is a total prisoner. Bush can not remotely understand what freedom means to the rest of us. It is like a drowning person having the responsibilty of instructing the swim team.
Scarecrow!
“I’m on my way I’m making it, BIG TIME [LINK]”
Here is a question I want every candidate for President for the next 20 years to be asked :
Do you support war crimes trials, either in this country or in the Hague, for those who start wars of aggression ?
At one time I thought that Cheney probably wouldn’t last long enough to face justice on this world, but now I have more hope.
Why the Cheney campaign against Washington’s bureaucrats? Simply doing their jobs puts them at odds with his version of the world, his assertion of unconstitutional authority, and his ability to bend government departments, their decisions and their dollars spent toward his personal political interests.
Doing their jobs creates a fulcrum that an opposition Congress could use to oppose him.
Most of all, doing their jobs threatens the ability of lobbyists and their corporate clients, eg, Exxon Mobil on global warming, to control public perceptions and government action on important issues. That starts with having the facts to expose the unprecdented role of those lobbyists and their “think” tanks, such as AEI.
Good blogging provides a way around Mr. Cheney’s efforts. Blogging is an effective catalyst; it can start or speed action. But it can only work with the building blocks already there. That’s you.
I strongly echo your comment about Cheney’s intentional decimation of our working bureaucracy. Forget the jokes, the resentment of bureaucrats who supposedly have little to do, but who have the most prized benefits most of us no longer have: a good pension and healthcare benefits.
Most of them work hard and well, which is why Dick Cheney has worked tirelessly to punish and demoralize them, to make them powerless, and most of all, to make them leave government service.
Remember Andrew Card’s lunchtime speech a few years ago to hundreds of the best and brightest DC interns. A man who had spent his entire career working his way to the top levels of government – or government influence (eg, General Motor’s top lobbyist). Mr. Card “departed from his prepared speech” and told those would be public servants to go home. Public service was a contradiction in terms. Go to the Private Sector Young Man (and Woman), decreed our modern Horatio Alger. Only there will you find fulfillment and reward. Working for government will get you nowhere. This from a government employee, the President’s Chief of Staff, and one of the most powerful men in Washington.
On the darker side of this effort, good employees have been shorn of their union protections, security clearances, and job responsibilities. Many have been side-stepped in the reporting and policy process – which itself has been corrupted and squeezed into the OVP’s shop. Many have been given nothing to do for months, or demoted or put under the command of inexperienced ideologues. All in the hope that they would give up and leave, and allow their posts to remain vacant, their leadership untapped, and their mentoring of junior public servants undone. Their places taken by the faithful.
Why this effort, which started in January 2001? Because many of the government’s professional employees do a good job. Many know more about their one thing than anybody in the private sector or state government. Most of all, professional, well-placed bureaucrats know each other, know their facts, and know how policy is meant to be vetted – seared and roasted from many sides in private so that what makes it into adopted policy has a decent chance of being factual, logical and workable.
As such, they are the quintessential roadblocks to the creation of Dick Cheney’s fantasyworld and the implementation of his dogmatic agenda, which is why Mr. Cheney has put them on his personal endangered species list.
Seymour Hersh said more than a year ago that children were raped either by CACI with US soldiers letting them do it and the mothers begging their male relatives to come and kill them because of the horror.
Hersh said that those who had seen the videos of the horrible screams of the children being raped by the US contractor were unforgettable.
Bush was ordered more than a year ago by a judge to release the tapes which according to Biden and Rumsfeld showed torture, rapes and murders beyond anything that has been written about or seen in photographs or videos.
Bush continues to defy the court in refusing to release the videos of American soldiers watching CACI contractors raping very young boys.
Thanks, Scarecrow for making such a strong case for action by many and for evoking the response of those who are empowered to action, crying out for more action. Powerful summary, powerful vision, powerful certainty of the urgent need for action.
Thanks. Christy for reminding us about the rules of the site. The rage many of us feel needs to be kept calm and clean to protect the righteous mission of FDL as you so rightly reminded us.
As I read the diversity of opinions allowed to be printed here, I sometimes wonder how best to walk the tight rope balancing the need for rational, effective credibility and the temptation for impotent flailing about. I marvel at the preponderance of reasonable critiques. I marvel at the moderators’ capacity for choosing this and rejecting that. Sometimes it seems we’re allowed a great deal of flailing, but balanced by great control.
On balance, I respect much of what I find here, biting my own tongue at times, lest I express my volcanic rage and disgust in hurtful ways. At other times I am praying for protection before the vulnerability I see.
I’m grateful that there are great writers and analysts; grateful that there are leaders whose vision both nurtures and restrains us. I’m in awe of those whose vocations and avocations insist upon a high level of integrity for public service and civil discourse within a broad range of expressions and sentiments of unbearable frustration and daring hope.
So, my own integrity leaves me sighing in gratitude, thanks be to God for the gift of FDL. Long may its prophetic mission flourish!
mui @
80
artisanal? Like some sort of boutique radioactive mining operation? Like people learning how to be a blacksmith or make woad?
Then there was the very honorable “Go fu** yourself” to Senator Leahy.
KM @ 122
Major actions like this are not done in some little snit. They are planned in advance to scratch several itches at the same time. There are probably a couple of other itches that we don’t know about. For example, establishing a precedent for the immaculate declassification (i loves me that so much) process.
lisongare @
14
He was absolutely right. Why should terrorists waste their time and energy attacking the Bush and Dick show? When someone is doing your job for you already, you have nothing left to do but watch and pop popcorn. I wonder if bin Ladin likes popcorn? Even if he did, he’s probably frigging sick of it by now. Overdose, you know.
I was taking a break from our American concerns this evening by reading Colette Harris’s book about gender relations in Tajikistan, when I came upon a definition of “honor” that fits better with what Cheney probably has in mind:
Also this evening, I watched Gwen Ifill’s PBS show Washington Week, and Pierre Thomas expressed the sentiment that Fitz’s reputation will be severely damaged if Libby is acquitted. It seemed to me that this was what he and perhaps others on the panel were hoping for.