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	<title>Comments on: Libby Trial:  Jury Nullification, JNOV And Other Motions</title>
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		<title>By: redhooker</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/02/20/libby-trial-jury-nullification-jnov-and-other-motions/#comment-514484</link>
		<dc:creator>redhooker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:23:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-513602&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;looseheadprop @ 174 &lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-513436&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;queeniesdaughter @ 54 &lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;But if I understand correctly jury nullification occurs when the jury applies “in the real world that’s how it happens” logic over “The law specifically states”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;in that case, this might be the “sacrificial lamb skirmish” and the feast will be the VP.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Fitz gave an opening in his close.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The vice emperor isn’t naked … he’s covered in blood.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;That’s very insightful. May I borrow that?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I would be honored!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-513602"><em>looseheadprop @ 174 </em></a></p>
<blockquote><p><a href="#comment-513436"><em>queeniesdaughter @ 54 </em></a></p>
<blockquote><p>But if I understand correctly jury nullification occurs when the jury applies “in the real world that’s how it happens” logic over “The law specifically states”</p>
<p>in that case, this might be the “sacrificial lamb skirmish” and the feast will be the VP.</p>
<p>Fitz gave an opening in his close.</p>
<p>The vice emperor isn’t naked … he’s covered in blood.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>That’s very insightful. May I borrow that?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I would be honored!</p>
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		<title>By: Watson</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/02/20/libby-trial-jury-nullification-jnov-and-other-motions/#comment-514041</link>
		<dc:creator>Watson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 05:01:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/02/20/libby-trial-jury-nullification-jnov-and-other-motions/#comment-514041</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;There WAS plenty of evidence to convict OJ Simpson, even if the gloves had never existed. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;But in defense of Ito, Cochrane, and the jury, the gloves were in fact put into evidence, by the prosecution, under the theory that they were the murderer’s gloves. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;When the gloves appeared not to fit Simpson, it was perfectly appropriate to argue that the jury should acquit him. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And the prosecution had a second problem with the gloves. Office Fuhrman said that he found one of them in Simpson’s yard. The jury had reason to believe that Fuhrman was a liar and a racist whose racism gave him a motive to frame Simpson.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There WAS plenty of evidence to convict OJ Simpson, even if the gloves had never existed. </p>
<p>But in defense of Ito, Cochrane, and the jury, the gloves were in fact put into evidence, by the prosecution, under the theory that they were the murderer’s gloves. </p>
<p>When the gloves appeared not to fit Simpson, it was perfectly appropriate to argue that the jury should acquit him. </p>
<p>And the prosecution had a second problem with the gloves. Office Fuhrman said that he found one of them in Simpson’s yard. The jury had reason to believe that Fuhrman was a liar and a racist whose racism gave him a motive to frame Simpson.</p>
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		<title>By: lotuseater</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/02/20/libby-trial-jury-nullification-jnov-and-other-motions/#comment-513966</link>
		<dc:creator>lotuseater</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 04:27:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/02/20/libby-trial-jury-nullification-jnov-and-other-motions/#comment-513966</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;We have to make a pardon politically unacceptable.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;b&gt;FDL&lt;/b&gt; and other sites should be positioning for this campaign–otherwise all is for naught–including but not limited to the Rule of Law.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The mere thought of of King Bush waving his wand makes me want to wretch.  Any we are not even at the core of the rot yet.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Only emanations from a penumbra of a corpse.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The corpse is of course is this rotten war that we were baited into by this admistration.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Never mind the treasonous behavior of outing  Plame who risked her life for our country unlike the chickenhawk neo-cons/Aipac flunkies. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Ironically, she was in the counter-proliferation division.  Where is the outrage?–not at FOX or the MSM save Hardball.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The Washington Post/NYT/LATUSA TODAY might as well be Pravda and TASS.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I will donate for this noble cause–support our laws NO PARDON&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We have to make a pardon politically unacceptable.<br />
<b>FDL</b> and other sites should be positioning for this campaign–otherwise all is for naught–including but not limited to the Rule of Law.</p>
<p>The mere thought of of King Bush waving his wand makes me want to wretch.  Any we are not even at the core of the rot yet.  </p>
<p>Only emanations from a penumbra of a corpse.</p>
<p>The corpse is of course is this rotten war that we were baited into by this admistration.  </p>
<p>Never mind the treasonous behavior of outing  Plame who risked her life for our country unlike the chickenhawk neo-cons/Aipac flunkies. </p>
<p>Ironically, she was in the counter-proliferation division.  Where is the outrage?–not at FOX or the MSM save Hardball.  </p>
<p>The Washington Post/NYT/LATUSA TODAY might as well be Pravda and TASS.</p>
<p>I will donate for this noble cause–support our laws NO PARDON</p>
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		<title>By: HotFlash</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/02/20/libby-trial-jury-nullification-jnov-and-other-motions/#comment-513846</link>
		<dc:creator>HotFlash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 03:44:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/02/20/libby-trial-jury-nullification-jnov-and-other-motions/#comment-513846</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-513488&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;ReneND @&lt;br /&gt;
                95              &lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-513480&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;perris @ 87&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;does anyone know how the concervative blogs have looked at the closing statements?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;are they as excited about well’s team as we are fitz’s team?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Quick look at freerepublic shows nothing. They are however talking about how upset we are with Lieberman.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Oh, then perhaps I shuld mention my contempt for Lieberman, which has no bounds (punaise doesn’t seem to be here, somebody has to do it).&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-513488"><em>ReneND @<br />
                95              </em></a></p>
<blockquote><p><a href="#comment-513480"><em>perris @ 87</em></a></p>
<blockquote><p>does anyone know how the concervative blogs have looked at the closing statements?</p>
<p>are they as excited about well’s team as we are fitz’s team?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Quick look at freerepublic shows nothing. They are however talking about how upset we are with Lieberman.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Oh, then perhaps I shuld mention my contempt for Lieberman, which has no bounds (punaise doesn’t seem to be here, somebody has to do it).</p>
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		<title>By: HotFlash</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/02/20/libby-trial-jury-nullification-jnov-and-other-motions/#comment-513838</link>
		<dc:creator>HotFlash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 03:40:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/02/20/libby-trial-jury-nullification-jnov-and-other-motions/#comment-513838</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-513472&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;Thosemenscareme @&lt;br /&gt;
                79              &lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Knowing how Cheney reacts to threaths, knowing that rove stops at nothing to win…&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Isn’t it possible that these criminals will find a juror, and get exactly what they want???&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I would be heartbroken, but not surprised.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-513472"><em>Thosemenscareme @<br />
                79              </em></a></p>
<blockquote><p>Knowing how Cheney reacts to threaths, knowing that rove stops at nothing to win…</p>
<p>Isn’t it possible that these criminals will find a juror, and get exactly what they want???</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I would be heartbroken, but not surprised.</p>
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		<title>By: Valley Girl</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/02/20/libby-trial-jury-nullification-jnov-and-other-motions/#comment-513806</link>
		<dc:creator>Valley Girl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 03:26:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/02/20/libby-trial-jury-nullification-jnov-and-other-motions/#comment-513806</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Scotian-  hope you will continue to delurk at FDL.  It’s really important that FDL doesn’t become too ingrown, with the same people talking to the same people (not that I think that’s necessarily a serious concern).  Also, my sense is that many of us here are energy-drained/ in adrenaline overload from the events of the Libby trial.  Not to mention the continuing Bushco. atrocities.  So, I say, go for it.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scotian-  hope you will continue to delurk at FDL.  It’s really important that FDL doesn’t become too ingrown, with the same people talking to the same people (not that I think that’s necessarily a serious concern).  Also, my sense is that many of us here are energy-drained/ in adrenaline overload from the events of the Libby trial.  Not to mention the continuing Bushco. atrocities.  So, I say, go for it.</p>
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		<title>By: looseheadprop</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/02/20/libby-trial-jury-nullification-jnov-and-other-motions/#comment-513798</link>
		<dc:creator>looseheadprop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 03:14:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/02/20/libby-trial-jury-nullification-jnov-and-other-motions/#comment-513798</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-513702&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;TiredFed @ 188&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;lhp, are you a college bball fan? Duke perhaps? or just of Dickie V?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Not a BBall fan at all. Used to go many days per week in HS and College (have a thing for tall and handsome) Burnt out on it now&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-513702"><em>TiredFed @ 188</em></a></p>
<blockquote><p>lhp, are you a college bball fan? Duke perhaps? or just of Dickie V?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Not a BBall fan at all. Used to go many days per week in HS and College (have a thing for tall and handsome) Burnt out on it now</p>
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		<title>By: Scotian</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/02/20/libby-trial-jury-nullification-jnov-and-other-motions/#comment-513795</link>
		<dc:creator>Scotian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 03:12:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/02/20/libby-trial-jury-nullification-jnov-and-other-motions/#comment-513795</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Valley Girl:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I get your meaning all right, it is why they are so slavishly willing to harness our foreign policy to yours, it is the only way to satisfy that craving they share with the movement conservatives within the GOP.  Thanks for your kind words regarding Saundrie, especially regarding my summation of the 2006 midterms (it seems a lot of Americans that read that thought I captured it well, especially for a non American).  Indeed, I worry so much about the commonalities between our CPC and the GOP/movement conservatives that I focus my time almost exclusively on trying to expose them as best I can as you likely noticed.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;LaFourmiRouge:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;High compliment given the quality of the posts that make the front page at this blog, high compliment indeed, I thank you for it.  All I was doing though was simply describing how I felt and why, something I’m sure many others have done at least as well here over the years.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Valley Girl:</p>
<p>I get your meaning all right, it is why they are so slavishly willing to harness our foreign policy to yours, it is the only way to satisfy that craving they share with the movement conservatives within the GOP.  Thanks for your kind words regarding Saundrie, especially regarding my summation of the 2006 midterms (it seems a lot of Americans that read that thought I captured it well, especially for a non American).  Indeed, I worry so much about the commonalities between our CPC and the GOP/movement conservatives that I focus my time almost exclusively on trying to expose them as best I can as you likely noticed.  </p>
<p>LaFourmiRouge:</p>
<p>High compliment given the quality of the posts that make the front page at this blog, high compliment indeed, I thank you for it.  All I was doing though was simply describing how I felt and why, something I’m sure many others have done at least as well here over the years.</p>
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		<title>By: looseheadprop</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/02/20/libby-trial-jury-nullification-jnov-and-other-motions/#comment-513793</link>
		<dc:creator>looseheadprop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 03:12:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/02/20/libby-trial-jury-nullification-jnov-and-other-motions/#comment-513793</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-513660&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;Phoenix Woman @ 185&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-513370&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;Evil Parallel Universe @ 7 &lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;i&gt;So, while you are off skiing, or going to those President’s Day sales at the mall, spare a moment for the &lt;b&gt;outmanned&lt;/b&gt;, overworked, surely physically exhausted men and women of Team Fitz.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Never believed that particular claim about the poor, poor gov’t attorneys. Sorry.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In this case, he’s right.  Fitz has spent less than $3 million on &lt;em&gt;the entire investigation&lt;/em&gt;, while Libby has at least $5 million in his defense fund alone — and can easily get any of a thousand archconservative sugar daddies to throw a million or two his way.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Uh! Guys.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Fitz spent considerably less that 1 million&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-513660"><em>Phoenix Woman @ 185</em></a></p>
<blockquote><p><a href="#comment-513370"><em>Evil Parallel Universe @ 7 </em></a></p>
<blockquote><p><i>So, while you are off skiing, or going to those President’s Day sales at the mall, spare a moment for the <b>outmanned</b>, overworked, surely physically exhausted men and women of Team Fitz.</i></p>
<p>Never believed that particular claim about the poor, poor gov’t attorneys. Sorry.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>In this case, he’s right.  Fitz has spent less than $3 million on <em>the entire investigation</em>, while Libby has at least $5 million in his defense fund alone — and can easily get any of a thousand archconservative sugar daddies to throw a million or two his way.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Uh! Guys.</p>
<p>Fitz spent considerably less that 1 million</p>
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		<title>By: cinnamonape</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/02/20/libby-trial-jury-nullification-jnov-and-other-motions/#comment-513787</link>
		<dc:creator>cinnamonape</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 03:07:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/02/20/libby-trial-jury-nullification-jnov-and-other-motions/#comment-513787</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-513728&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;Oklahoma kiddo @ 191 &lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-513712&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;dab from CT @ 189 &lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-513533&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;Oklahoma kiddo @ 132 &lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;This Libby thing is looking dismal. The deck was stacked from the beginning (pardon).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Sorry ok by I really don’t know what you’re talking about&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If a pardon is granted even Fitzgerald recognizes all this Libby business is irrelevant. Like playing against a stack deck. You cannot win. As in trying to beat the odds at the slots. The odds are heavily favored by the ‘house’ to win. The White House that is. The pardon is the ace up the sleeve. Has been from the start.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;A pardon may be an ace up the sleeve…but you have to be certain that the other aces aren’t already dealt to make it fly.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Bush is in a bit of a jam with the pardon. If he does that he will clearly indicate that he might have been involved. After all Bush has been very stingy with pardons, and offers them only when individuals have already served their sentences or are almost completed with them.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Pardoning Libby would look quite odd…especially after all his statements about “punishing leakers”.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It would look self-serving and could be a charge in an impeachment trial if it turned out to be related to “obstruction of justice”.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Bush would essentially be playing “chicken” with Congress. If he did this I could almost gaurantee that “impeachment” would suddenly be “on the table”. And it is the House that ssues the Articles of Impeachment…the indictments against the President (or VP)…which are passed by a simple majority.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Bush cannot pardon people for civil suits…these would still go on. As would any other prosecution and indictments.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And if Fitz felt that he was being blocked he could do what is allowed under his terms of appointment…he could issue a report and submit it to Congress. That report could contain the transcripts of his interviews with Bush and Cheney and how their statements were contradicted by the evidence, and statements of others.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Wouldn’t that be JUICY!&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;So an “ace up the sleeve” can only work if the other players don’t hold that card…or if the rest of the hand benefits from the “ace”. But sometimes the other players hold better hands despite the ace.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-513728"><em>Oklahoma kiddo @ 191 </em></a></p>
<blockquote><p><a href="#comment-513712"><em>dab from CT @ 189 </em></a></p>
<blockquote><p><a href="#comment-513533"><em>Oklahoma kiddo @ 132 </em></a></p>
<blockquote><p>This Libby thing is looking dismal. The deck was stacked from the beginning (pardon).</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Sorry ok by I really don’t know what you’re talking about</p>
</blockquote>
<p>If a pardon is granted even Fitzgerald recognizes all this Libby business is irrelevant. Like playing against a stack deck. You cannot win. As in trying to beat the odds at the slots. The odds are heavily favored by the ‘house’ to win. The White House that is. The pardon is the ace up the sleeve. Has been from the start.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>A pardon may be an ace up the sleeve…but you have to be certain that the other aces aren’t already dealt to make it fly.</p>
<p>Bush is in a bit of a jam with the pardon. If he does that he will clearly indicate that he might have been involved. After all Bush has been very stingy with pardons, and offers them only when individuals have already served their sentences or are almost completed with them.</p>
<p>Pardoning Libby would look quite odd…especially after all his statements about “punishing leakers”.</p>
<p>It would look self-serving and could be a charge in an impeachment trial if it turned out to be related to “obstruction of justice”.</p>
<p>Bush would essentially be playing “chicken” with Congress. If he did this I could almost gaurantee that “impeachment” would suddenly be “on the table”. And it is the House that ssues the Articles of Impeachment…the indictments against the President (or VP)…which are passed by a simple majority.</p>
<p>Bush cannot pardon people for civil suits…these would still go on. As would any other prosecution and indictments.</p>
<p>And if Fitz felt that he was being blocked he could do what is allowed under his terms of appointment…he could issue a report and submit it to Congress. That report could contain the transcripts of his interviews with Bush and Cheney and how their statements were contradicted by the evidence, and statements of others.</p>
<p>Wouldn’t that be JUICY!</p>
<p>So an “ace up the sleeve” can only work if the other players don’t hold that card…or if the rest of the hand benefits from the “ace”. But sometimes the other players hold better hands despite the ace.</p>
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