
Originally, I told Christy this post was going to be about post trial motions, and I'm gonna cover some of those as well. However, of the last couple days I have noticed a tension building with respect to two different concepts and I think they deserve some discussion because I don’t want folks to get confused. That includes our good friends in the MSM who have taken to checking in here to check out their own take on the story. So, I want to take a moment to compare and contrast two, sort of, related concepts jury nullification and Judgment Notwithstanding Verdict (a/k/a Judgment NOV—it’s the Latin babay!)
Jury Nullification
Is when the jury when presented with facts that full support every element of the crime charged and fully believing all of the evidence presented by the Prosecution and fully believing that the quality and quantum of evidence submitted by the Prosecution is sufficient to convict on the crimes charged, nonetheless vote to acquit. WHHAATTT??? You say? Acquit! How could they acquit?
It’s like this pups: Sometimes the jury just doesn’t like the charges. It happens all the time in drunk driving cases where no one was injured and no property was destroyed and the driver was on the way home from a wedding or other celebratory occasion. Jurors all either have been there or have a loved one who has and think, it’s just because it was this driver’s bad luck to be pulled over. Even more so, if the guy was charged after he safely navigated home to his own driveway. It’s the no harm no foul jury nullification and, pups, it happens.
Or there is “the prosecutor is a tight assed prick with political ambitions and we just hate him type of jury nullification”, the defense tried that in both the Leona Helmsley and Martha Stewart cases, though without any noticeable success.
There are a couple other versions that I haven’t the space to go into, but the one that has been in play in this case is the “I can’t believe you are calling that a crime” version. I’ll give you an example from another case. In US v. Capasso former Miss America Bess Myerson was accused of giving a job to the bi-polar, otherwise unemployable daughter of the judge in her married lover’s divorce case as bribe to get the judge, who up until then had ruled in favor of Capasso’s wife in several key motions, to reverse course and rule in favor of Andy Cappasso despite the merits favoring the wife.
The government put on multiple layers of testimony proving every element of the crime charged, yet in a decision that stunned everyone in the courtroom that night, the jury unanimously acquitted. Press interviews with the jury members thereafter revealed that many of the jurors felt that trading favors for jobs happens all the time and refused to believe, despite explicated and repeated jury instructions that this should be a crime. In short, the jury confused their role and decided to substitute their judgment of what crimes should be on the books for Congress’s role in deciding what constitutes a crime. It didn’t hurt that the jury forewoman later revealed that she had gotten her government job from a “favor”, or that many jurors in a version of the “we don’t like the prosecutor” form of Jury Nullification did not approve of the Prosecution’s use of the testimony of the daughter in a prosecution of her mother, the judge accused of accepting a bribe in the form of the job for the daughter.
Team Libby has been pounding the “this should not be a crime” theme since day one. We have heard the “no charge on the underlying crime” mantra ever since the indictment press conference. Victoria Toensing and the Wall Street Journal have made a cottage industry out of this canard. Byron York’s latest piece for the Washington Post continues it up to the present time.
Judgment Notwithstanding Verdict
Judgment NOV may be new to all of you. You don’t hear about it in episodes of “Law & Order” and I can’t recall a “Perry Mason” episode ever mentioning it. The theory of Judgment NOV is related to a concept called a “Directed Verdict”. In this motion, the Defense asks the Judge to direct the jury as a matter of law that the evidence submitted by the Prosecution does not make out every element of the crime charged and that they MUST as a matter of law acquit the defendant. At the conclusion of the Summations, expect the defense to make this motion as a matter of form.
If the jury convicts, expect the Defense to make a motion for Judgment of acquittal Notwithstanding Verdict of conviction (a/k/a Judgment N.O.V.). The theory of a Judgment NOV can be the same as that for a directed verdict and/or it can be that the jury did not apply the facts in the manner which the judge instructed them to or that the jury did not apply the law in the manner the judge instructed them to.
This is why there was so much wrangling at the end of last week over the jury instructions and the verdict questionnaire. Not all cases use a verdict questionnaire. Some cases just have a straight up or down vote. In some cases a questionnaire is used so that the court and lawyers will know how the jury did their reasoning.
In this case, there is particular significance because the judge has ruled that one of the allegations in one of the obstruction counts was not proved up with sufficient specificity. Now don’t worry and don’t buy the spin that Babs Comstock is trying to make of this. The count in question had three lies alleged, any single one of which was sufficient standing alone to permit conviction on that count. So, even with the one allegation stricken as to that count, there are still two left; either of which is sufficient by itself.
Remember the total piece of genius misdirection Johnny Cochrane got away with during the Summation at the OJ Simpson trial? Remember “if the glove don’t fit you must acquit”? Horsefeathers! There was plenty of evidence in that case even if the gloves had never existed. Because Judge Ito completely lost control of his own courtroom and just caved and caved every time Cochrane started talking fast, Cochrane more than earned his fee by being able to make that totally unfounded argument.
Why do I bring this up? Because, there was a huge amount of wrangling at the end of the week both about how the jury questionnaire will handle this point and about the jury instructions. Look for the defense to be trying to fashion an instruction to the jury that says “just because the July 12th Judy Miller conversation is not sufficiently proved up, you shouldn’t consider it for count X” coupled with a possible Defense Summation that tried to confuse the jury into believing that if one Judy conversation is out that there is no way they can convict (don’t forget Ted Wells’ strange statement in his Opening that the only way the jury could convict would be if they violate their oath as jurors—I still cannot believe the judge did not ding him for that), to lead to a defense contention that some answer on the jury questionnaire somehow means that they considered verboten evidence or did not follow the judge’s instructions on the law.
I believe, though I have no actual information not in the public domain, that some of THE MOST IMPORTANT legal battles since the greymail/CIPA wars are going on over this holiday weekend. So, while you are off skiing, or going to those President’s Day sales at the mall, spare a moment for the out-manned, overworked, surely physically exhausted men and women of Team Fitz. I think they are sprinting to the finish while we are sleeping in or enjoying our Sunday Morning cuppa. So, here’s a shout out and good wishes to from the hometowners back in NY to Pat and all of Team Fitz.
Ooops. Almost forgot. Some other post trial motions you may want to watch for:
If Libby is convicted the Defense will almost certainly move to have Libby’s bail continued pending the appeal. If that motion is denied, they will then move to allow Libby to “surrender” on a date a couple/few weeks in the future so that he will have time to get his finances, etc organized. Libby has not proven a flight risk, so it is likely one or the other of these motions would be granted.
If the judge does not indicate that the gag order is lifted, one side or the other will probably make a motion to allow them to speak to the press. Cause you gotta know, either way, somebody’s gonna want to speak to the press.
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Marcy! Esten! Jane! Christy! Pach! Swopa! LHP! Jeralyn!
Nil.
I just gotta fitz!
looseheadprop — typo alert: “That includes are good friends . . ” you probably meant “our” good friends . . .
The “political prosecution” nullification defense worked for Susan McDonald, I think. She wrote about it in her book.
Whoot! Well explicated LHP. Thanks
Never believed that particular claim about the poor, poor gov’t attorneys. Sorry.
lhp, you have a way of translating legalese into regular chat that makes so much sense to this non-lawyer type.
thank you for your well written explanations.
EPU’d, but relevant:
*xyz @ 141
[Mod Note; Please do not “Quote this Comment” again.]
If Libby is convicted the Defense will almost certainly move to have Libby’s bail continued pending the appeal. If that motion is denied, they will then move to allow Libby to “surrender” on a date a couple/few weeks in the future so that he will have time to get his finances, etc organized. Libby has not proven a flight risk, so it is likely one or the other of these motions would be granted.
dammit…I want Libby to do a meet and greet in Leavenworth the night he’s convicted! An indigent criminal would not get this kind of consideration, I bet….
Once, lo-these-many-years-ago, I saw the appeal briefs for DEC v Data General. The original verdict was NOV by the judge, after the jury had found for them (and that after the judge had done everything possible to get a jury that knew zero about computers; I heard one prospective juror was excused because a daughter had taken a keypunch class). It happens, just not often. (Oh yes: DEC won on appeal. ISTR it went all the way up.)
Today in a 2-1 decision by the US Court of Appeals for the District of Coulmbia affirmed the Congress’s right in the Military Commissions Act to deny federal courts habeas corpus review of detainees held at Guantanamo Bay.
The 3 judge panel was comprised of the following:
Raymond Randolph, Bush I appointee, wrote the opinion in this case.
David Sentelle, Reagan appointee, voted to overturn the convictions of Oliver North and John Poindexter. One of the judges responsible for appointing Kenneth Starr to investigate President Bill Clinton. Voted with Randolph in this opinion.
Judith Rogers, Clinton appointee, dissented.
As Judge Randolph framed the issues of the case:
I believe all 3 judges agreed that the MCA applied to the detainees’ habeas petitions and that it was Congress’s intent to deny all such petitions.
With regard to the second point, Randolph argues in the majority opinion that these were aliens detained outside the United States, with no real connection to it or its courts. They therefore never had a habeas right because they were never under an American court’s jurisdiction.
In her dissent, Rogers cited the Supreme Court decision in Rasul:
So the detainees did at some point have a habeas right recognized by the Supreme Court. In such a case, the only way that Congress can suspend habeas is in accordance with Article I, 9, cl.2 of the Constitution which states “The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.”
This is a limitation on the powers of the Congress which were clearly superseded in the MCA. In the absence of a rebellion or invasion, the Congress can not arbitrarily suspend habeas.
The effect of such a move, Rogers captures in the following: (Alexander Hamilton in the Federalist Papers citing William Blackstone)
THE FEDERALIST NO. 84, at 468 (E.H. Scott ed. 1898) (quoting WILLIAM BLACKSTONE, 1 COMMENTARIES *131-32);
In other words, this is the kind of issue for which our forefathers fought a revolution and thought it was worth fighting for, that a government must be answerable for its actions and that those actions are challengeable.
As I see it, Randolph is making the case that detainees never had a habeas right. This would be a defensible legal (if not ultimately Constitutional) position if both the Congress and the Supreme Court had held to it consistently. But they haven’t. The Supreme Court in Rasul acknowledged that habeas existed in such cases, as did the Congress in the Detainee Treatment Act (while trying to place limitations upon it. Habeas is not a sometime thing. Once admitted it can not be finessed or glossed over. As soon as it is accepted however grudgingly, it can not be suspended except under the conditions of rebellion or invasion specified in the Constitution. Randolph’s opinion is specious because it chooses to ignore the judicial and legislative histories of the current habeas controversy, our common law heritage, and the Constitution itself. That’s a lot to overlook even for an appellate judge, except of course one who believes in arbitrary government.
http://pacer.cadc.uscourts.gov.....-5062b.pdf
While I don’t disagree that it happens, do you really think that the jury could come to that conclusion based on the facts of this trial?
If so, I will be sorely disappointed in this jury, and that would be puttin it mildly.
LA Times had an excellent story about it almost a year ago, IIRC. Unfortunately, it’s behind their firewall now. It’s not so much the salaries, although they are not great, it’s about the resources to take depositions and retain expert testimony, all the things the government needs to win a case against deep pocketed defendants. Add this to the revelations about the DOJ firing of six USA’s, it certainly brings back memories of Grover Norquist’s: “we want to shrink government down so we can drown it in a bathtub.”
spare a moment for the outmanned, overworked, surely physically exhausted men and women of Team Fitz.
We’ve worn out the knees of our pants praying for them.
Jane, Marcy, Christy, Pach, Jeralyn & Co.,
Thanks so much for all your hard work during this trial. It was great being able to follow along in real time, especially today, when I had my heart in my throat! I just sent you another PayPal contribution — money well very well-spent, IMO. Everyone who has benefitted from these live blogs and post-hearing analyses should contribute what they can, even if the amount is small. This has been a real public service.
Speaking of Republican felons not in prison yet, an admittedly large universe, why hasn’t Bob Ney reported to the slammer yet? It’s been weeks since his sentencing. Maybe he’s dealing Rove under the bus, from the Iran thing or something? In which case he may need the witness protection program.
-
I just finished reading Marcy’s live blogging of the Fabulous Fitzgerald and I swear if he walked in this moment, I would stand up and salute, cheer, cry, swoon and generally make a fool of myself. Such a pure and persistent pursuit of the truth is such an amazing thing to “see/hear”.
Thank you Mr. Patrick Fitgerald, I am in awe.
Thanks also to Marcy, Jane, Christy, Pach, Trex, Jeralyn, looseheadprop etc. etc. and to all of the incredibly intelligent (and snarky) bloggers. Right now, I am proud to be an American—which is something I haven’t said or felt these past five years—because I know I share a country with the likes Fitgerald, his crew and all the firedogs. Thank you Mr. Fitzgerald and the community of firedoglake for your service to our country.
(And yes, I just thanked firedoglake with a paypal payment of $50.07, even though I have no idea what the $.07 is for)
I do not like jury null. It goes against the grain of my sensibilities.
what lamujersalvaje said.
Shit, was I supposed to put an .07 on the end?
The $.07 to specifically designate that donation to cover costs of Plame House and trial coverage for the Great Pups
terre #13, don’t get your hopes up too high, darlin’. We’ve all had way too many disappointments to be complacent.
On the other hand, if the jury does acquit, well, all I can say is New Zealand is looking better and better…especially after Bush gives the okey-dokey and the bombs start flying over Tehran.
A cloud over Vice president Cheney……..
A sentence I will treasure forever.
I bet Shooters butt cheeks clenched when he saw that put out for the world to see.
Shout out to all the federal government employees on FDL today - from DOJ (of course), NASA, NIH, Air Force, EPA, DOE, Nat’l Cancer Institute, United Nations (ok, not technically government).
itwasntme @ 21
S’ok, put mine in the male strippers and dog treats fund!
itwasntme @ 21
Aw darn, I didn’t know that. Well FDL, out of all the money you’ve received, $40 of it should have really been $40.14. Next time.
In short, the jury confused their role and decided to substitute their judgment of what crimes should be on the books for Congress’s role in deciding what constitutes a crime.
Without the possibility of jury nullification, why bother having juries?
Jury nullification is neither good nor bad. It is a lawful power of the Jury, it’s kind of dumb to whine about it.
I tend to find that the only people to whine about it are lawyers that would benefit by taking the power from the jury. It’s basically just a hidden power grab.
I consider trial by jury as the only anchor yet imagined by man by which a government can be held to the principles of its constitution.
—Thomas Jefferson, 1789 letter to Thomas Paine
Historical examples include American revolutionaries who refused to convict under English law, juries who refuse to convict due to perceived injustice of a law in general, the perceived injustice of the way the law is applied in particular cases, and cases where the juries have refused to convict due to their own prejudices such as the race of one of the parties in the case.
(And yes, I just thanked firedoglake with a paypal payment of $50.07, even though I have no idea what the $.07 is for)
it makes sure that your contribution is used to support the liveblogging effort (hopefully, enough money has now been raised to provide Marcy with long-term medical coverage for treatment of carpal-tunnel)!
From the Chicago Trib politics blog, partial transcript of the media grilling Tony Snow about the conditions at Walter Reed:
http://newsblogs.chicagotribun.....grill.html
Wiki goodness:
Nullification in the United States
John Peter Zenger, a printer in the English colony of New York, was tried for seditious libel in 1734 for publishing a newspaper critical of the governor. The jury acquitted Zenger despite the judge’s instructions; this is perhaps the most famous early instance of jury nullification in the colonies that became the United States.
The use of the jury to act as a protection of last resort was espoused by many influential people surrounding the framing of the U.S. Constitution. For example, John Adams said of jurors: “It is not only his right but also his duty… to find the verdict according to his own best understanding, judgment, and conscience, though in direct opposition to the direction of the court.”
First Chief Justice of the US John Jay wrote: “It is presumed, that juries are the best judges of facts; it is, on the other hand, presumed that courts are the best judges of law. But still both objects are within your power of decision… you [juries] have a right to take it upon yourselves to judge of both, and to determine the law as well as the fact in controversy”.
It was over time that judicial and legal opinion slowly changed to consider jury nullification only a power and not a right of juries, as courts wanted stricter enforcement of laws that juries nullified.
[edit] Nullification in practice
Nullification has a mixed history in the United States. Jury nullification appeared in the pre-Civil War era when juries occasionally refused to convict for violations of the Fugitive Slave Act. However, during the Civil Rights era, all-white juries were known to refuse to convict white defendants for the murder of African-Americans.[6] During Prohibition, juries often nullified alcohol control laws,[7] possibly as often as 60% of the time.[8]
In the 21st century, many discussions of jury nullification center around drug laws that some consider unjust either in principle or because they are seen to discriminate against African-Americans. A jury nullification advocacy group estimates that 3–4% of all jury trials involve nullification,[8] and a recent rise in hung juries (from an average of 5% to nearly 20% in recent years) is considered additional evidence that juries have begun to consider the validity or fairness of the laws themselves.[9]
[edit] Court rulings
In recent years, courts seem to like jury nullification less and less. While unable to take away the power of nullification, they have done much to prevent its use.
The 1895 decision in Sparf v. U.S. held that a trial judge has no responsibility to inform the jury of the right to nullify laws. This decision, often cited, has led to a common practice in United States courtrooms in which juries are instructed to find guilt or innocence according to the letter of the law. Jurors are likely to be struck from the panel during voir dire if they reveal awareness of the concept of jury nullification.[citation needed]
A 1969 Fourth Circuit decision, U.S. v. Moylan, affirmed the right of jury nullification, but also upheld the power of the court to refuse to permit an instruction to the jury to this effect.
On the other hand, if the jury does acquit, well, all I can say is New Zealand is looking better and better…especially after Bush gives the okey-dokey and the bombs start flying over Tehran.
unless you are rich, forget NZ…. you have to have large amounts of cash to emigrate there.
(anyone know of a low-cost of living english speaking nation that old gay men can emigrate to?….just asking :) )
itwasntme @ 21
…didn’t realize that, but I trust the Great Pups will use the $ as they see best. Hats off to you all and all the great blogging pups. G’night from the old continent.
What has happened since Nixon & Watergate?
Mainly that the MSM have become, in the aggregate (beyond their commercial infotainment focus), Pravda.
Without the work of the likes of the FDL team, emptywheel, Murray Waas et al, the MSM would have been successful in helping sweep this odious dogpile of treasonous criminality under the rug.
Your importance to the fight to preserve the true American ideal simply cannot be overstated.
Don’t let the Suits and their pol lackeys eliminate ‘net neutrality, or Pravda Today will be all we have left.
_
The “political prosecution” nullification defense worked for Susan McDonald [sic, McDougal] I think. She wrote about it in her book.
Mrs. Mehta was such a horrible witness that the prosecution just unraveled (i.e., even if McDougal seemed kind of guilty, the evidence did not support it beyond a reasonable doubt). There was no need for nullification.
_____________
No chance for nullification in this trial — if they think Scooter did it, they will have zero sympathy for him.
QuentinCompson @ # 17. Isn’t Mr. ney in alcohol rehab somewhere?
Also interesting how Ney (a Farsi speaker - news to me) was a go-between in getting the Irani diplomatic cooperation offer in 2003 (that Condi “forgot” she saw) to Rove’s desk back then.
I agree with Suzanne — I am far from a lawyer and understand everything. (I think) LOL
Thanks to LHP and all!
p.lukasiak @ 31
India
merciless - I stopped getting my hopes up after the “no-Rove-indictment” (yet) news. Even so, it’s still hard not to go there.
Bustednuckles @ 24
Cheney as Joe Btfsplk. I like it.
Professor Prop ,
if you were not able to see it in real time today, look through the Wells Summation 2 thread -
you will see a whole herd of non lawyers jumping up and down, pointing at screen, boisterously pointing out -
OMFG ! It’s lhp’s Scottish Defense !!!, It’s lhp’s Scottish defense !!!
and Prof Prop Was Her Name-O !!!
BobbyG @ 34
Beautifully stated - good on you BobbyG!
Thanks for the great info.
Irving’s not a flight risk? Me, I have to wonder if he gleaned some useful intel while representing billionaire ex-fugitive from Justice, Mark Rich. I’m only suggesting Irving has the means and support network to go on the lam. Of course, with his poor memory, he may forget which alias he’s using while running…
I would have a hard time believing that a DC jury would have a lot of sympathy for an elite government official like Libby. Having lived there for 2 years in the Reagan 80s, it is a town which does not particularly identify with the high-rolling gov officials who dominate the landscape in certain neighborhoods.
If the jury believes Libby is guilty, they will convict. The defenses attempt at jury nullification is a huge long-shot and indicative a a) how frightened and desperate they are and b) how totally out of touch they are with the hoi poloi.
The cloud of darkness follows Dick Cheney like the cloud of dirt followed Pigpen.
Cheney has a new name, Darth Syphillis.
-GSD
$.07 and the donation goes to defray plamehouse expenses.
Also, I wonder if the newly reported UK troop withdrawl is Tony Blair’s tell that an Iranian attack is nigh and he’s looking to get out of quicksand central.
-GSD
No chance for nullification in this trial — if they think Scooter did it, they will have zero sympathy for him.
I think its going to come down to the judges instructions in this case….the WhiteHats and TeamLibby provided two different views of how the evidence should be interpreted within the law itself — the judge will tell them which interpretation is correct.
(i.e. TeamLibby argued that because the indictment/charges were based on statements made to Cooper and Russert, that if there is a reasonable doubt regarding their credibility, an acquittal is required. I think the judge will explain that the Fitz version of the law is correct—its not whether Cooper and Russert are absolutely credible, its whether the statements made by Libby vis a vis Cooper and Russert were credible…)
Carol Leonnig’s summary of closing arguments for the PBS News Hour was weak. From her demeanor, you would think she were covering a Food Channel episode. It is hard to get a sense of the strengths and weaknesses of each side, or the stakes in play should there be a conviction, from her presentation. Perhaps she’s too used to working to midnight deadlines in print to deliver her story on live television by six pm.
India
you mean I’d have to give up Big Macs? ;)
Sparkles the Iguana @ 38
I have an “old gay” friend who has been happily retired in China on a modest Social Security income. At the time he became an ex-pate the only second language he had was a self-admitted inadequate tourist Spanish.
GSD @ 47
I think it is serious arm-twisting on the part of a really pissed off labour party. If he doesn’t start getting out now, they will take him out and replace him. What with all the other behind the scenes scandals (Peergate etc), he is pretty weak, and he is much like Bush in that he really thinks that he will be vindicated by history. He is determined to hold on to his position as PM until he leaves when he said he would leave.
Excellent point.
FWIW, all US supplies come through Basra on their way north and it’s our escape route.
But if I understand correctly jury nullification occurs when the jury applies “in the real world that’s how it happens” logic over “The law specifically states”
in that case, this might be the “sacrificial lamb skirmish” and the feast will be the VP.
Fitz gave an opening in his close.
The vice emperor isn’t naked … he’s covered in blood.
Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall.
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
All the king’s horses and all the king’s men
Couldn’t put Humpty together again.
Deadeye can’t seem to get this rhyme out of his mind.
Lindy @ 46
Great, then buy a round of drinks on me! ;) You all certainly deserve them!
I don’t think that Russia, China, Pakistan, India and perhaps others will sit still for an attack by Bush on Iran. And I don’t blame them.
p.lukasiak @
50
Holy cow! (g)
I hear that Belize is very nice, and English is the primary language there.
JNOV: judgment non obstante veredicto. That is, of course, a non-Classical ablative absolute construction using the present participle. By medieval times, it was fairly common.
How about GWBush’s future Presidential Library become our
first Federal Presidential Prison for all convicted felons and those impeached of this current and future administrations? Put it
down there near Waco-Crawford. Bush and Cheney can have
day passes to visit their archives while the Pubic can have access
to the Library as a memorial to a Criminal Presidential Administration
Oft and so boring: danGerstein is on Tucker bloviating re: mccain
GW Bush Memorial Library
“Lest they forget”
mbbsdphil @ 49
She has been on the NewsHour a couple of times already and shown only a general and not very insightful or informed view of the trial.
LHP - FWIW, JNOV was part of a Law & Order episode involving some sort of sex crime, where the judge didn’t believe it was a sex crime (he was a sexist judge), and granted a JNOV after the jury found the defendant guilty.
This from the AP:
“If convicted, Libby faces up to 30 years in prison and $1.25 million in fines. Under federal sentencing guidelines, however, he’d likely get a far lighter sentence.” After all it’s not like he selling crack cocaine or something!
legaleze @ 66
Also, it is worth mentioning that he can try to mitigate his sentence by agreeing to fully cooperate with Fitz. I don’t have a hard time believing that Fitz would be very happy to negotiate this point!
And where are the leders of my party, the Democrats, on stopping an Iran attack?
Terre @ 39
I hear you. My little bit of hope feels like too much, but I can’t help myself.
I’m also disappointed to find out that New Zealand is out of my price range. India, huh? Mmmmm…I’ll have to think on it.
[Jeffress leaning against witness stand.] Wells is kind, he says something about Perry Mason moment, it doesn’t take a Perry Mason moment. We looked at all kinds of notes we found he typed Rs instead of Ns, I guessit’s particularly hard when you’re sprawled out on the bed. What that sentence may well have said, if he recorded it accurately is this.
[Jeffress types up the Libby line., then highlights it in the Libby testimony]
[Lots of “ooohhhs” in the media room]
==========================================
could someone explain what the “ooooohs” were about?????????
will check back in later……….
In some jurisdictions, I believe that you cannot file a motion for Judgment Notwithstanding the Verdict unless you first file a motion for a Directed Verdict at the close of the prosecution’s case. I’m not sure if that applies in Federal criminal prosecutions, but if so, it would then not be possible for the Libby team to file a JNOV.
Oft and so boring: danGerstein is on Tucker bloviating re: mccain
you mean MSNBC didn’t pre-empt Tucker for an Anna Nicole Smith special?
dmbeaster @ 160
As I recall there are now only four charges. One of the charges was dropped. But each charge contains several elements (”lies” that Fitz says Libby told to the FBI and GJ on different dates). Some of the counts have three lies, others have only one. I think one had four. Any single lie, if viewed by the unanimous jury as valid, is enough to convict on that count.
I’m sure the jury will look at the issues fairly fully. I don’t know if they will, however go through each of the distinctive “lies” and discuss them fully if a single lie receives a 12-0 vote for a charge. Maybe they’ll simply discuss that one fully, see if anyone disagrees and then ignore the other two or three additional lies (or take a straw vote on those). And move onto the next charge.
If they do it this way, it could be a pretty quick proceeding. If they opt to debate all the different lies…then it could take awhile. But the foreperson may say it’s unnecessary…once they find Libby guilty on one lie for that count.
p.lukasiak @ 72
No no. That is going on at FOX! Breaking news of the day: Anna Nicole’s Body is deteriorating fast! (true! I saw it-the story, not the body)
Edit: are you sitting down? Shuster is doing a Libby trial update! (oh, I spoke too soon - Tucker is whining about Plame not being covert, so why a trial?)
p.lukasiak @ 29
Not to mention several sessions with a good massage therapist!
What ever happens we can all rest assured that the efforts of FDL have proven invaluable in changing the way we can seek truth and keep citizens informed. I hope all of you that have been living at Plame House are comfortable this evening as we await what surely will be an explosive verdict.
I am pretty certain jefferson believed in jury nullification as one of their responsibilites
The whole thing may very well become moot. Pardon. Libby knows where the skeletons are. Call it blackmail perhaps. I believe the Republicans are still playing my party like a cheap two dollar banjo.
Knowing how Cheney reacts to threaths, knowing that rove stops at nothing to win…
Isn’t it possible that these criminals will find a juror, and get exactly what they want???
OT but for some ghoulishness, perhaps some may find this worthwhile @ 8pm tonight on cspan1. ;)
http://inside.c-spanarchives.o.....hedule.csp
legaleze @ 66
wow
that the ap can actually believe selling crack is more harmfull and more depraved then what libby did
bizarre
Maybe it has to be discussed, but jury nullification really isn’t particularly common.
oh and forgot:
this person is a canadian, live-blogging from the media room..they posted their site this morning in the comments section of thread….i followed both today……was helpful.
http://politblogo.typepad.com
cinnamonape @ 73
No, if I understand correctly, there are still five charges. One of the elements of one of the charges was dropped. There are two remaining elements of that charge, and the jury need only find that he is guilty of one of those elements to find him guilty of the charge.
Did Fitzgeral make a mistake in not charging anyone with leaking?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 78
I would still love to see Waxman take this window of opportunity to call Libby to the hill to talk about Feith’s activities re intelligence. Let him plead the 5th and see how that plays out…
does anyone know how the concervative blogs have looked at the closing statements?
are they as excited about well’s team as we are fitz’s team?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 85
of a trial was lost due to gray mail defense it would affect this trial
I believe the strategy is get this one in the bank in order to get the others on the books
legaleze @
66
Treason. Not as bad as selling crack.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 85
He could not charge anyone with leaking, because Libby “threw sand in his eyes”. Libby is central, and his untruthful testimony makes it impossible to prove all the elements of an IIPA case.
All the other leaks here have been covered by Junior’s retroactive declassifications.
Evil Parallel Universe @ 82
I don’t think it plays a part here, but I maintain I believe it’s a jury’s obligation to judge law as well as the person charged
Oklahoma kiddo @ 68
From today’s WH press briefing
It is so mean of the press corps to actually ask Snow to provide facts to justify his blather.
Thosemenscareme @
79
You bet your sweet ass it is.
No, if I understand correctly, there are still five charges. One of the elements of one of the charges was dropped. There are two remaining elements of that charge, and the jury need only find that he is guilty of one of those elements to find him guilty of the charge
Beth is correct. Fitz decided to use the July 12 Judy Miller conversation as part of his obstruction charge, and there was insufficient evidence that Libby’s statements to Judy at that time constituted obstruction… but the other two elements of the obstruction charge (statements vis a vis Russert and Cooper) remain.
(Why Fitz used the Miller/Libby July 12 conversation, rather than the July 8 conversation, is a mystery to me….)
perris @ 87
Quick look at freerepublic shows nothing. They are however talking about how upset we are with Lieberman.
By the way, Wells didn’t actually say “democrat party” did he? Isn’t that Bush’s sophomoric phrase for the Democratic Party?
“There’s no great mystery about the motives behind this deliberate misnaming. “Democrat Party” is a slur, or intended to be—a handy way to express contempt.” Hendrik Hertzberg, New Yorker, Talk of the Town. August 7, 2006.
If you wish to review the charges against Libby, they can be found here:
On page 11 of the following pdf:
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/.....102005.pdf
I would bet that the conservative blogs are anxiously awaiting their tidbits from Jonah, Tom and Victoria…
blergh.
Well hairboy York’s column today, written before summations, seems to be preparing the faithful for conviction on some counts.
http://article.nationalreview......NkMTJiMDU=
Money quote:
“In the end, it seems hard to believe that Libby will be acquitted on all counts. The jury is, after all, a District of Columbia jury, and it stretches the imagination to believe they would unanimously exonerate Dick Cheney’s chief of staff.”
perris @ 87
I think they’re all crying and saying, Give him back!
can you say dogwhistle ?, I knew ya could
montag @
40
But Joe Btfsplk was a somewhat innocent victim, wasn’t he? I mean, he never did anything in the comic strip to earn his private misfortune, did he? Which contrasts quite a lot with tricky Dicky.
Bob in HI
I think Blonde Byron meant to say:
perris @ 81
Sorry the crack about the crack was mine, not the AP’s. The lighter sentence remark was what implied to me anyway that it wasn’t as though Libby did anything so bad that he should deserve to spend any length of time in jail. I will edit to make that clear.
The greatest impediments in the U.S. to peace in the world? Bush, Blair, Rice, Cheney and Lieberman. I won’t mention certain other Repubs and Democrats who voted to give Bush a ‘blank check’.
“So, here’s a shout out and good wishes to from the hometowners back in NY to Pat and all of Team Fitz.”
Doublepup ditto from a newbie.
Don’t hear much rah-rah on the right right now, they are conspicuously sedate.
Thank you all for all your hard work. I’m sending in some $plus .07 soon as the paymaster graces me with my due.
Best quote of the day “There’s a cloud over Vice president Cheney . . .”
The Ivory tower is about to fall. I know it’s too soon, but I’m doing the Snoopy dance.
It’s too bad that Libby didn’t use the Jeff Gannon option.
The gay male defense.
-GSD
I want everyone held accountable, regardless of party, for over three-thousand American soldiers dead in Iraq.
Oh that coordinated attack on the US/Iraqi outpost injured 27, not 17 troops.
Seems the military always errs on the side of diminishing the facts.
-GSD
. . .and oh, btw, Byron -
this jury is in fact an anomaly wrt to juries in the District - you should have been paying attention with your access and not ogling, fantasizing the rather large, butch baliffs, or was it all the ladies shoes you couldn’t keep your eyes off ?!?!? wanker !
I like Dana Priest!
beth meacham @ 84
Thanks, I think you are right, after reading the above again.
Do you know whether the Jury Instructions include a document that asks the jury to specify how the jury held on each element of a count…or does it merely ask the jury whether they found Libby guilt on that count?
Is the Jury Form public?
Sam @ 61
Hey, wait! I already reserved a couple of rooms in the Hague at the World Court.
We gotta coordinate…….
perris @ 81
perris—-
I think this is legaleze’s comment.
Note that the quotation marks close before the sarcasm.
Tony Blair. Brit. PM is just another unsavory war criminal. Come to think about it; is there any kind of war criminal other than ‘unsavory’?
Thosemenscareme @ 79
Beware the cornered beast..
Jury tampering may be the most benign of their machiavelian machinations.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 85
No. Because he can do that later. There is still a Grand Jury seated that can make such charges.
He could try Libby on them if there is evidence that Libby leaked Classified Information.
Perhaps he’s holding on those charges in order to obtain a verdict in this case…in order to use them as leverage to get Libby to testify truthfully.
cbl @
111
Not that there’s anything WRONG with ogling large, butch baliffs or ladies’ shoes… However, I agree that Byron is a rather large, non-butch DORK.
perris @ 87
Well I can see them highlighting in CAPITAL LETTERS the Prosecution saying “There Was No WH Conspiracy” (ignoring the following “there was no NBC Conspiracy” which puts it into context).
cinnamonape @ 118
One of the earlier posts suggested that he may not need Libby to flip. He just needs to expose him as a liar and a perjurer before he moves on to Cheney.
So it was an emotional summation and Wells cried?
Wells fake cried.
Isicoff was stunned when Fitz talked about the “cloud” over the VP!
Bob Schacht @ 102
I am simply thinking of Cheney as the world’s greatest jinx, bringing trouble with him wherever he goes. A cloud is a cloud is a cloud…. :)
Jizzicoff on Tweety . . .
“enormous expenditure”
The defense didn’t call any witnesses from the WH. Does this indicate a confidence in a forthcoming presidential pardon?
cbl @ 126
“proportionality”
I have to marvel at how much money Wells will get out of all this.
jaqrat (119) — sweetie, I take issue with that, there most certainly is a problem with ogling large, butch bailiffs or ladies’ shoes…when you’re supposed to acting like a journalist and concentrating on the subject at hand.
Down time, not reporting? Go ahead, ogle away.
I guess we now know why Hair Boy needs notes to talk on the subject of the Plame investigation. Probably doesn’t need notes on bailiffs or women’s shoes.
Yes!
I am obsessed with this new analysis.
This analysis really may solve the riddle of how Fitzgerald can advance his case against Cheney by using a perjury and obstruction conviction of Libby, but without relying on Libby’s cooperation with the investigation.
Once Libby is a convicted perjuror (knock on wood), Cheney can’t rely on Libby to support his story in court. Libby’s value as a witness is obliterated forever.
Fitzgerald might be using the Libby trial solely as a means to knock out Libby’s credibility for future legal action against Cheney. Getting Libby’s cooperation would just be icing on the cake.
This Libby thing is looking dismal. The deck was stacked from the beginning (pardon).
cbl @ 101
And I think that the “Yorkie” (arf-arf) should realize that all of Fitz’s prosecutions in the near future of the Administration will be before Washington, D.C. juries.
Maybe if the Republicans had treated the citizens of Washington DC with a bit more respect (and economic fairness) they would be treated in kind. But as has been pointed out, the jury was well vetted by the Defense, and was hardly a MINORITY LADEN panel…which is what I think York was implying. In fact, it mainly consisted of civil servants, some of whom would not at all be viewed as politically liberal.
I guess that York wanted a jury selected from the Sophomore Class of Oral Roberts University!
P.S. Wouldn’t an “impeachment” be by a “Washington, D.C.” jury?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 127
I’m wondering what the strategy is here;
if the vice president simply refused to testify, that would have brought the subpeona to the supreme court
before the supreme court even ruled, the pardon would have come “in the interest of national security”
then it wouldn’t matter which way the court ruled as far as cheney, they could get traction from any ruling
these aree surely pedestrian intelects who’ve written their script
Oklahoma kiddo @ 132
Remember, accepting a pardon is an admission of guilt. This dude isn’t going to do any real hard time anyway, you can take that to the bank!
raven @ 128
Who could have foreseen that closing statements referring to Dick Cheney could come in the form of a mushroom cloud over his head?
It has been observed that Nov. 7th was the end of nothing but only the beginning of the real battle. The Adminstration is counting on the rolling crisis to keep this trailing prosecution at bay. Of couse we don’t know, as has been observed, what Fitzgerald has in the bag with respect to the testimony of Armitage, Rove and Hadley. But he certainly has cleared alot of ground in terms of a potential gray mail defense in future prosecutions.
Of course the future battles are not unforeseen. Remember there was a resolution for war with Iraq and the last two Supreme Court appointments have a decided acknowledgment of a kind of jurisprudence recognizing the unitary executive. The PNAC has anticipated legal challenges to their revolution. It is the same kind of thinking we have seen in this trial where the pretext of inevitable leaks and media privilege, coupled with what was thought to be a compliant Department of Justice was used as a justification to move ahead as politically expedient and legally sufficient.
The forces pushing for the right of the executive and its global corporate surrogates to operate outside the jurisdiction of the United States was affirmed today in the DC Circuit’s denial of the writ of habeus corpus to Guantanamo detainees. Agressive militay action is being pursued against Muqtada al-Sadr and on the Afghani-Pakistani border. The loss of Cheney in the end would only be collateral to this surge.
That we are testing the limits of the Constitution is self-evident, especially in the face of an excutive with an unclear sense of limit. Interestingly, Pres. Bush does have criinal representation in the context of Fitzgerald’s investigation and I remember hints of a visit by Fitzgerald to the offices of this counsel at or near the time Libby was indicted.
The key to bringing some humility to the Executive is now clearly identified as resting in the Senate especially in light of last weeks Iraq votes. And though I do not view Fitzgerald as being politically motivated I do beleive he has now made a very strong case for continued scrutiny of the highest levels of the Executive. At this point it really is a matter of honor and whether the system of check and balances spelled out in the Constitution have any relevance to checking the establishment of an off-shore government. And Bush made clear last week that is about money. He might as well say the war is about tobacco, alcohol, oil and slavery. Perhaps there is a place for a Whig government under out Constitution but such should be examined in the light of the possibility of tyrannical royalist pretenses.
raven @ 135
not so
a pardon is intact whether or not you accept it
*xyz — makes perfect sense, doesn’t it? Fitz impeaches Libby by way of successful prosecution for lying?
Excellent. And then he does a number on Libby like they are doing with Abramoff, sticks him in a small office every day with the threat of locking him up as soon as he stops cooperating. Bet that’s what they will be negotiating this weekend if the jury comes back rapidly.
Tonster @ 99
gosh, anyone else think York once again demostrates what a racist scumbag he is with this statement?
This prosecutor and the way he has tenaciously stuck to working this investigation to get it even to this point is one of the only things that gives me hope that my American cousins are not truly beyond the point of no return from the authoritarian makeover movement conservativism has been enacting for the past quarter century, especially in the last decade. This is a very important case that strikes at the heart of the perversion that is the Bush/Cheney Presidency, and the outcome of this trial may well reverberate in ways many of us have been hoping/dreaming of for years now in the destruction of the real axis of evil in the world, Bush-Cheney.
The rebuttal by Fitzgerald was devastating IMHO, simply devastating and was a true joy to read even in this form, I suspect the transcripts will be even more powerful given this man’s demonstrated abilities.
I am also grateful to this blog and the community at it for several years worth of exceptionally powerful and well researched writings on this case and other significant issues. I am one that generally lurks here as I rarely feel I have much to contribute that is not already being done by others (not something I find just anywhere I might add, one of the reasons this blog is one of the ones I most respect overall) and I am not so in love with my own voice that I need to speak for the sake of speaking.
The way this blog has handled the Libby case and the Plame treachery overall is one of the best arguments for the importance and relevance of blogs in today’s media environment. Sure, you can get really trashy and factually deficient blogs, but that is equally true in other media forms from my observations, it is what the good ones do that tells whether it performs a useful function overall and not the worst examples. This blog is IMHO definitely one of the best examples of why blogs are relevant and should be taken seriously. Thank you all yet again for your hard work, especially in defending those that cannot come out to defend themselves, those within the covert community, for they were the ones most damaged and betrayed by this atrocity by their own government, yet even now their ability to be heard and to impact this issue is minimal by the very nature of their work. You have given voice to the (publicly) voiceless on something that really matters, and I salute that most of all. Nuclear proliferation endangers all of us in the world, and the damage done in the prevention of that with this outing was a crime against all of us, not just Americans IMHO.
perris @ 138
Hmm, I din no dat!
A pardon is the forgiveness of a crime and the penalty associated with it. It is granted by a sovereign power, such as a monarch or chief of state or a competent church authority. Clemency is an associated term, meaning the lessening of the penalty of the crime without forgiving the crime itself. The act of clemency is a reprieve. Today, pardons and reprieves are granted in many countries when individuals have demonstrated that they have fulfilled their debt to society, or are otherwise deserving (in the opinion of the pardoning official) of a pardon or reprieve. Pardons are sometimes offered to persons who, it is claimed, have been wrongfully convicted. However, accepting such a pardon implicitly constitutes an admission of guilt, so in some cases the offer is refused.
Frank Probst @ 121
Sounds like your a dreamer…Take off your tin-foil hat and get a brain. The only way they could get a guilty verdict is with a O.J. jury..
[Mod Note; let’s be very careful about how we refer to our fellow commenters, please.]
Perhaps the irony is that the VP may be weaker now, which by inference, leaves Rove stronger.
zig patrol, lurking
perris (138), raven (135), OK (132) — boy, I sure wish we could get John Dean back in here at FDL to talk about presidential pardons, don’t you?
My understanding is that in order to accept the pardon, one must admit guilt, and that once pardoned, a party can no longer plead the Fifth on anything that has been pardoned. It may not be in the EO’s or OVP’s best interest if Libby is pardoned; it would be very bad if there was a veto-proof Dem majority in Congress, and worse with a Dem president if Libby was pardoned, since the investigations may continue into the next term because of the long term damage created by the underlying root cause of many governmental problems.
J. Thomason @ 137
sorry to cut your post so short, I just want to get this part in before I digest the rest of it;
the PNAC are morons, their “anticipation” means nothing, they are a bunch of base individuals with no intellectual acuity
all of their predictions were wrong, all of their preparation failed, resulting in the greatest loss of political power for their base in history
morons
Scotian- what a great statement of admiration for Team FDL. So true. Their energy and dedication is quite remarkable.
in this case it would be a tireless patriot facing undue hardships at the hand of an overzealous Prosecutor. . .accepts the gesture to spare his family the pain of separation©
©Barbara Comstock, LLC
Libby could always scoot to Paraguay…
Congrats FDL on 28,000,000 site visits!
Looks like we got 21,000 the hour of Fitzgerald’s closing. I think that’s a record.
——–Geeks R Us [inclu Fitzpatrick apparently]
Rayne @ 139
Just to be clear, under this theory, Libby doesn’t even have to cooperate for this trial to have been a success. All he has to do is be convicted of perjury and lose all value as a witness for Cheney.
But I do like the idea of Libby as the new Abramoff.
cbl @ 149
My one regret is that Fitz’s closing argument was not recorded. It seems to be one of the great legal summations in American jurisprudence, and to not have a sound/visual record of his cadence, his movements, the way he used visual exhibits (I actually got a little lost there) to punctuate his logical arguments, and his body language when he made his ETHICAL arguments for conviction…is a real loss to American students of history.
Scotian — thank you for delurking, greatly appreciate your feedback.
looseheadprop — where are my manners? excellent job here with the explainer. I’ve learned as much from you and Christy in the last several weeks as I did in two semesters of law. ;-)
cbl @
126
Unlike the investigation into the blow job.
Indicting Dick is upstairs.
Perris:
All am saying is the the PNAC had thought through the parameters of a push for a corporate globalist surge in the context of military effort, legal argument and political method. I am not saying that it should not go unchallenged. I think the fact the we are where we are speaks to some of their successes.
But I should pipe down. I think there are some problems with my talking about tyrannical royalist pretenses as well. What we are seeing really is a kind bureaucratic authortarianism with the typical political pretenses of the great man. What I am really suggesting is that if human rights are going to move to the poltical fore in the face of this push based on the reality of what the PNAC has accomplished, as dreadful and craven as it is, there is much much more to be done.
Since I am posintg again it should be “criminal” not “criinal”.
raven @ 93
It’s been brought up before, if eleven feel very strongly, they might compromise with the holdout of a not-guilty on one charge, to get four guilty verdicts. If eleven people think he’s guilty on all five and one thinks he’s innocent on all five, it’s about the holdout.
Rayne @ 146
Yes. Good idea!
Scotian—
But WE like your voice and hope you will chime in more often.
p.lukasiak @ 139
Yeah…that’s why I included that part.
And I really meant to contrast human rights to the notion of economic liberty which I beleive is the historical antecedent with which the I beleive the PNAC wishes to be identified.
There is another 19th antecedent that I think Bush strongly identifies with and that is the conquest of the American West. Once again I am not attempting to justify.
Now you’re talking perris - scumbag morons!
Evil Parallel Universe @ 7
EPU my brother!!!
LAst night I puzzled over who EPU sr. Might be (Christy got in late and never got a chance to forward the email from you). However, I rushed up and said “Is EPU (insert correct name of your dad)’s Kid?” And she ssaid yes!
I am so happy. Your father is the heart and soul of the federal defender unit and I canot say enough nice things about him. I am such a fan of his.
I have just been tickled all day about this!
David Scherrey @ 143
Yeah, just like the “leak” wasn’t going to get the CIA to file a request for an investigation;
and just like that request was going to be buried by Ashcroft who’d block the DOJ;
and how the FBI investigation would find that there was no one in the WH that leaked anything at all;
and that the President didn’t order anyone to go after Wilson (oops insta-declassification of selected sections of the NIE);
and just like how the Courts could never, ever compel the media to reveal their sources; and like how the Grand Jury would run out of time;
and how Fitz would never indict anyone, much less Scooter;
and how it would be proved that Plame was just a secretary…or was that an analyst…in a non-classified position (still waiting for the “non-classified” statement from the CIA on that Mme Toenseig-heil)
and how indictments on Wilson and his wife were coming out because she “outed herself” (wait, I thought she WASN’T COVERT!)
or how the Libby-Team would put witnesses on the stand to swear that Wilson had already outed Plame (I guess they were afraid to say that SWORN before a jury…especially in front of a Proisecutor who nails PERJURERS!)
or how Plame had been already outed back in the early ’90’s by Aldrich Ames…even though he was saved from Death Row by telling the FBI the names of every agent he exposed…and Plame continued in her overseas covert position until at least 1998 (and perhaps beyond).
Yes Maam! I will restrain myself from referring to anyone as an ignorant wingbat Troll!
p.lukasiak @ 10
No matter what, he ain’t going to Levenworth. More likeley Camp Fed at Allenwood, PA ot Darien ,Conn
LHP- are you staying here, or going to the next thread? I am looking forward to your take on today’s events.
John Casper @
159
oh, you are probably marching through the comments in an orderly fashion!
looseheadprop @ 167
Where are those other leakers of National Security information… Aldrich Ames and Jonathan Pollard doing time?
From Scotian at 4:30:
As to the first para, the hair on my spine and arms rose as I read Marcy’s transcription of Mr. Fitzgerald’s final summation. I can’t even imagine experiencing it in person. Possible fatal arrhythmia there!
I, too, lurk regularly, but am either far behind in EPU land, or can find nothing to contribute that hasn’t already been well said. I treasure this community for its intelligence, passion, and human decency.
I’ve kicked in a few bucks twice (forgot about the .07 both times I think), but will do so again. An automatic quarterly subscription is in order.
Marcy? I mean this in its pristine sense: Awesome performance.
cbl @ 41
I saw it in real time. And I gotta thank Mr. Wells for makin’ my day.
BTW Ted Wells turned in the performance of a lifetime today. No shit. He did a really great job, at least during his first segament. The last segnment was kinda odds and ends
queeniesdaughter @ 54
That’s very insightful. May I borrow that?
cinnamonape @ 73
There are still 5 Counts. Some counts had 3 allegations each of which could sustain a verdict of guilty all on its own. Now in some counts that has been reduced to 2 allegations. There is still a belt and suspenders for each count
Hugh @ 12 - I started to do a reply, then realized it was becoming impossibly long. Let’s hope for the best.
Mary!
So glad you’re here.
cinnamonape @ 154
It was amazing. You are so right, no written word could convey how much damn FUN it was!
Valley Girl @ 168
Actually, I’m gonna get something to eat and then join you all on the next thread in about an hour
Hugh @ 92
Snowjob forGOT the names of the politicians he was referring to over the weekend. He is a very very busy man who is involved in very very important matters.
Woodhall Hollow @ 44
I lived in the DC area from 1980 to 2000. The place changed considerably in those years and even more since. The DC metropolitan area is no longer primarily populated by people devoted to public service. It’s full of the “Washington elite”, lobbyists and other high rollers living in huge estates in Potomac, MD and other upscale communities.
Hi egregious - I’m about to take off and do horse stuff, but it was a fun read. lhp makes the crossed t’s interesting to read about.
Valley Girl:
One of the things that I found most lost for many involved in this issue was that the covert community had a major Major MAJOR sin committed against them by their own leaders, and for no better reason than apparently political damage control. Yet those most sinned against were the ones most unable to neither tell their story nor explain to others just how truly horrific this matter was while the defenders of those that sinned against the covert community were free to say whatever they wanted to defend this atrocity.
Back when this first happened I was a relative newcomer to Political Animal at The Washington Monthly. I freaked when I first read Novak’s column. You see one of the members of my family worked at literally the highest levels of the intelligence community in my country from the mid 30s to late 60s, and thanks to that relative I was raised with a strong interest and appreciation for intelligence work and related issues. So I well appreciated off the top what outing any NOC meant in terms of that NOC, anyone they ever interacted with (especially in foreign lands with foreigners since their own governments would automatically have to view those contacts with suspicion with variable consequences depending on the nation involved) and then when the follow-up outing of Brewster Jennings the recognition of the damage that did in terms of betraying not just all the agents and their networks but also methods in how the CIA sets up NOC business covers I was simply aghast.
This is a community that has been neglected by many in this issue because of the political ramifications, yet in the end it is this community that is most deserving of having justice done in this case and in the prosecution of the actual outing itself (which I think is not settled yet and the results of this trial could kick back into high gear). It has been FDL more than any other blog IMHO that has worked to help bring that justice to this community by preventing the total media snow job from going unrebutted and by providing a trustworthy place for all the latest updates in the investigation to GJ to this trial. This blog has done outstanding work in debunking the various GOP defenses of this atrocity, and by doing so has made it far harder for the MSM and GOP to dismiss this as no big deal (not that those forces haven’t been doing everything they can to do so anyway) so as to make any pardoning that much more politically risky.
It is though the giving voice to the voiceless in the covert world that I am most impressed by this blog. It is by the way it has been shown just how damaging everything involved with this leak was by the various FDLers, both frontpagers and commentators, that at least those covert agents reading/lurking here know that their sacrifices for their work is not unappreciated by those they truly work for, the American people. Given the massive shockwaves this outing had to have caused within that community and the mostly successful manner in which the GOP and MSM had played this off as no big deal I have to believe that the importance of this place in showing that real Americans/people do seriously care about this and are doing their best to make sure this treachery is not buried is no small amount.
I could have thanked FDL for all of its many other valuable aspects of this, but I thought it was important to remind people that there was one community which most needed that voice and this blog has done more than any save Fitzgerald and his team to provide. That is why I saluted this aspect above all the other many noble/worthy aspects/accomplishments of FDL.
egregious:
You may come to regret saying that…:)
Rayne @ 130
Rayne, love-bug, I wasn’t clear enough. I agree no ogling on WORK TIME, but I didn’t want to offend all the large, butch baliff/ladies’ shoes oglers out there who are not on the public’s time. Sorry if I was unclear. And thanks for calling me sweetie! Hope you enjoyed love-bug.
Evil Parallel Universe @ 7
In this case, he’s right. Fitz has spent less than $3 million on the entire investigation, while Libby has at least $5 million in his defense fund alone — and can easily get any of a thousand archconservative sugar daddies to throw a million or two his way.
Scotian- thanks for your added personal perspective. I don’t know if you regularly read the Book Salon threads on Sunday? I’ve been reading them for quite some time, and Joe Wilson has quite regularly dropped by to comment. He treats us like “regular folks”, and when he has the time, addresses questions in detail. And, I assume that he “lurks” at FDL as time permits. I’m sure your perspective would resonate with him.
egregious @ 177
Seriously EPU’d but I’d like to second Egy’s delight. Very happy to see you, you’ve been missed.
lhp, are you a college bball fan? Duke perhaps? or just of Dickie V?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 132
Sorry ok by I really don’t know what you’re talking about
Valley Girl:
A few of the book salons, although I must confess those have not been my main focus here, especially in the past year, but that is because the forces of darkness managed to come to power in my home and that required mainly focusing on local issues almost exclusively. Indeed, the Plame outing is the single largest non-local story I have been following because of how important I consider it to be. As to Ambassador Wilson’s habit of dropping by, I was aware of it and read some of it contemporaneously and you are likely right, he and I would share some perspectives on this matter.
For me, what caused me to go off right from the outset was not a sense of political outrage but of a betrayal far deeper and more fundamental than that. I understood what being covert truly meant for those that choose that life, and that it is for us all that they make these sacrifices and deserve our protection while they are doing their jobs. What was done here was as I have been calling it an atrocity and a betrayal the likes of which I literally have never seen before in this area. I can think of no other national western government that outed one of its most sensitive assets in a critical current file like nuclear proliferation in the age of stateless terrorism for simple political damage control over any issue. This was something that was so intense in me that my own family initially thought I was making bigger deal of this than it merited (once Fitzgerald’s investigation got started though in 2004 that changed quite a bit) because of how clearly angered and upset I was by this.
This for me was never about politics and political revenge, this was about something far more basic and something Ambassador Wilson knows from living it directly. This is about exposing such a venial Administration that it would destroy the most priceless of American intelligence assets in a critical field all to do message/media damage control. A government that can do that is capable of any treachery against its people and structure and needs putting down as soon as possible, after exposing them for what they are first of course. I cannot begin to tell you just how much this still enrages me despite the years since, nor how important I feel it is for this atrocity to be exposed as much as possible to the wider American public because they need to know exactly how much they have been betrayed by these traitors to the basic beliefs in individual freedoms that runs throughout western societies and especially America, the home of the Bill of Rights and that which it enshrines to the individual in this regard.
Well, I am starting to ramble a bit, but you can expect I will be more comfortable commenting from time to time, I am already well aware of the various major commentators here as well as the front pagers, as I said I have lurked here for years including the comments sections.
dab from CT @ 189
If a pardon is granted even Fitzgerald recognizes all this Libby business is irrelevant. Like playing against a stack deck. You cannot win. As in trying to beat the odds at the slots. The odds are heavily favored by the ‘house’ to win. The White House that is. The pardon is the ace up the sleeve. Has been from the start.
While we’d never know if an acquittal was the result of nullification, there is no way in hell that the judge will grant a Motion for JNOV in a criminal case. If the evidence was such that “no reasonable juror could convict,” Walton would dismiss the count and not even let it go to the jury. In civil cases, judges are more likely to let the jury “get it right,” and if it doesn’t, then grant the JNOV, as in the case of appellate reversal, the verdict simply gets reinstated, as opposed to having to run an entirely new trial. But in criminal cases, judges are much more hesitant to let a jury have a run at a legally deficient case, given the stakes.
Scotian- no, not rambling- putting very eloquently what so many of us agree with.
Valley Girl:
If you say so, I tend to think of myself as more long winded than elequent yet you are not the first to describe my ramblings as such. Thank you for the kind words.
Scotian- you are most welcome! You are in the fine tradition of some notable commenters here. (I won’t name names.) Longish comments, but/and always plenty of substance.
Scotian - post 190 deserves its own thread. This is what it’s all about. Even children can understand the concept of a person taking enormous risks out of a sense of patriotic duty. And then to be betrayed - what a crushing blow to us all.
Ah, hell… what you said, man.
Hey Scotian- I finally checked out your blog- a little of it anyway. Great take on the 2006 elections. Also, your comments about some Canadian pols put them in the same light as Bushco. (Just not as “worldly powerful”, if you get my meaning.)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 191
A pardon may be an ace up the sleeve…but you have to be certain that the other aces aren’t already dealt to make it fly.
Bush is in a bit of a jam with the pardon. If he does that he will clearly indicate that he might have been involved. After all Bush has been very stingy with pardons, and offers them only when individuals have already served their sentences or are almost completed with them.
Pardoning Libby would look quite odd…especially after all his statements about “punishing leakers”.
It would look self-serving and could be a charge in an impeachment trial if it turned out to be related to “obstruction of justice”.
Bush would essentially be playing “chicken” with Congress. If he did this I could almost gaurantee that “impeachment” would suddenly be “on the table”. And it is the House that ssues the Articles of Impeachment…the indictments against the President (or VP)…which are passed by a simple majority.
Bush cannot pardon people for civil suits…these would still go on. As would any other prosecution and indictments.
And if Fitz felt that he was being blocked he could do what is allowed under his terms of appointment…he could issue a report and submit it to Congress. That report could contain the transcripts of his interviews with Bush and Cheney and how their statements were contradicted by the evidence, and statements of others.
Wouldn’t that be JUICY!
So an “ace up the sleeve” can only work if the other players don’t hold that card…or if the rest of the hand benefits from the “ace”. But sometimes the other players hold better hands despite the ace.
Phoenix Woman @ 185
Uh! Guys.
Fitz spent considerably less that 1 million
Valley Girl:
I get your meaning all right, it is why they are so slavishly willing to harness our foreign policy to yours, it is the only way to satisfy that craving they share with the movement conservatives within the GOP. Thanks for your kind words regarding Saundrie, especially regarding my summation of the 2006 midterms (it seems a lot of Americans that read that thought I captured it well, especially for a non American). Indeed, I worry so much about the commonalities between our CPC and the GOP/movement conservatives that I focus my time almost exclusively on trying to expose them as best I can as you likely noticed.
LaFourmiRouge:
High compliment given the quality of the posts that make the front page at this blog, high compliment indeed, I thank you for it. All I was doing though was simply describing how I felt and why, something I’m sure many others have done at least as well here over the years.
TiredFed @ 188
Not a BBall fan at all. Used to go many days per week in HS and College (have a thing for tall and handsome) Burnt out on it now
Scotian- hope you will continue to delurk at FDL. It’s really important that FDL doesn’t become too ingrown, with the same people talking to the same people (not that I think that’s necessarily a serious concern). Also, my sense is that many of us here are energy-drained/ in adrenaline overload from the events of the Libby trial. Not to mention the continuing Bushco. atrocities. So, I say, go for it.
Thosemenscareme @
79
I would be heartbroken, but not surprised.
ReneND @
95
Oh, then perhaps I shuld mention my contempt for Lieberman, which has no bounds (punaise doesn’t seem to be here, somebody has to do it).
We have to make a pardon politically unacceptable.
FDL and other sites should be positioning for this campaign–otherwise all is for naught–including but not limited to the Rule of Law.
The mere thought of of King Bush waving his wand makes me want to wretch. Any we are not even at the core of the rot yet.
Only emanations from a penumbra of a corpse.
The corpse is of course is this rotten war that we were baited into by this admistration.
Never mind the treasonous behavior of outing Plame who risked her life for our country unlike the chickenhawk neo-cons/Aipac flunkies.
Ironically, she was in the counter-proliferation division. Where is the outrage?–not at FOX or the MSM save Hardball.
The Washington Post/NYT/LATUSA TODAY might as well be Pravda and TASS.
I will donate for this noble cause–support our laws NO PARDON
There WAS plenty of evidence to convict OJ Simpson, even if the gloves had never existed.
But in defense of Ito, Cochrane, and the jury, the gloves were in fact put into evidence, by the prosecution, under the theory that they were the murderer’s gloves.
When the gloves appeared not to fit Simpson, it was perfectly appropriate to argue that the jury should acquit him.
And the prosecution had a second problem with the gloves. Office Fuhrman said that he found one of them in Simpson’s yard. The jury had reason to believe that Fuhrman was a liar and a racist whose racism gave him a motive to frame Simpson.
looseheadprop @ 174
I would be honored!