All last week we watched the House debate and pass, and then the Senate vote not to debate, a non-binding resolution that simply said (1) Congress supports the troops but (2) Congress does not support the President's troop escalation plans. In the meantime, the escalation is happening, regardless of the voting. By the end of the week, the carnage in Iraq had resumed after a brief two-day lull in which only scores were killed, instead of the usual hundreds, and a dejected Harry Reid was telling CNN's Wolf Blitzer that the Iraq war was "the worst foreign policy mistake in the history of this country."
Democrats have struggled with how best to respond to the principal argument of the resolution's opponents, that the resolution and threatening to withhold funding for additional troops would embolden the enemy and undermine the troops by not sending the reinforcements they need, and thus undercut the prospects for victory in Iraq. But of course, the issue has never been about whether we should provide whatever our troops need; Democrats have supported that principle from the beginning, demanding better armor, more training, workable equipment and acceptable rotations — all of which Jack Murtha's next proposed resolution would demand; they've also called for a more supportive political and economic strategy, and accountability for contractors; they argued that we needed more troops in the early stages, over Rumsfeld's objections. The Democrats have nothing to apologize for on this issue.
Rather, the issue has always been whether the troops have been ordered on a mission the American people can and should support. We need a debate about whether they should be there, and if so, why and what for, and whether that mission is achievable. That, I believe, is the point of Senator Biden's suggested approach in reexamining the war's authorization. All the talk about "supporting the troops" is a rhetorical and often demogogic distraction from that central question. If we can't define a mission that is both worthwhile and achievable, then it is not clear how "victory" is achieveable or even whether it should be attempted.
An important but probably little noticed article in Sunday's New York Times, "Iran's Chance: US Troubles In Iraq Create Opening for Regional Shift" addresses this core issue. The article provides an analysis of the huge degree of Iranian influence in Iraq that our invasion and overthrow of Saddam Hussein's regime facilitated. The Bush Administration achieved this result simply by allowing the large Shiite majority, many of whom feel a sectarian kinship to Iran's predominantly Shiite population and are sympathetic to the fundamentalist regime in Iran, to replace Saddam's minority Sunni/Baathist regime that was both secular and openly hostile to Iran. Of course, that result was both predictable and predicted by some, none of whom get invited to be Sunday's talking heads, but the media never fully spread these views to the American poeple.
The article points out what is obvious to those in the Middle East but often ignored in the US-centric debates about our policies there:
CAIRO, Feb. 17 — In recent weeks, President Bush and American military officials have increasingly accused Iran of meddling in Iraq’s affairs. But from Iran’s perspective, given its longstanding interests in Iraq, it is the United States that is meddling in its backyard, analysts inside and outside of Iran say.
The article reminds us that the Iraq government's foundation is fundamentally pro-Iranian: the Dawa Party of Prime Minister al-Maliki and the major Shiite group SCIRI are closely allied to Iran, and many of SCIRI's militia have been trained by the Iranians. Numerous Shiite leaders in the current government lived in exile in Iran for years to escape Saddam's regime. The US nemesis, Moktada al-Sadr, supported by the large Mahdi Army, is also at least friendly towards Iran and has traveled often to Iran, though he is arguably more Iraq nationalist in his views.
The article cites extensive historic, cultural and religious links between the two countries; thousands of Iranians annually trek to Shiite holy sites in Iraq. And there are emerging economic ties that Iran is building in Shiite areas and intends to exploit. And why wouldn't they?
Those links to Iran’s religious and revolutionary identity, combined with the presence of American troops in Iraq and thousands of NATO forces in Afghanistan, are more than enough justification for Iran to try to counter American influence next door, political analysts in the region said.
“It is not logical to have an American presence in Iraq, and Iran sitting passively, waiting for the formation of an anti-Iranian Iraqi government,” Mr. Atrissi said. “From the Iranian perspective, Iran is a country defending its national security.”
The obvious take away from this article is that almost everything the Bush invasion and occupation have done has allowed Iran and the Iraqi government to move closer. The Bush policy is to build an Iraqi regime to counter Iranian influence and be more sympathetic to whatever the Administration sees as US interests. But this notion seems hopelessly delusional.
If the Administration's objectives relating to Iran are unrealistic, what of its hopes for achieving stability and democracy in Iraq? And won't sending more US troops to Baghdad help achieve these goals? Here again we see the same delusional theme emphasized in last week's Washington Post Op-ed, "Victory is Not an Option," by William Odom. Odom is a retired general and former head of Army Intelligence and Director of the National Security Agency under Ronald Reagan. He discusses four main reasons why the Bush/Cheney/neocon definition of, and hope for "victory" are delusional:
Too many lawmakers have fallen for the myths that are invoked to try to sell the president's new war aims. Let us consider the most pernicious of them.
1) We must continue the war to prevent the terrible aftermath that will occur if our forces are withdrawn soon. Reflect on the double-think of this formulation. We are now fighting to prevent what our invasion made inevitable! Undoubtedly we will leave a mess — the mess we created, which has become worse each year we have remained. Lawmakers gravely proclaim their opposition to the war, but in the next breath express fear that quitting it will leave a blood bath, a civil war, a terrorist haven, a "failed state," or some other horror. But this "aftermath" is already upon us; a prolonged U.S. occupation cannot prevent what already exists.
2) We must continue the war to prevent Iran's influence from growing in Iraq. This is another absurd notion. One of the president's initial war aims, the creation of a democracy in Iraq, ensured increased Iranian influence, both in Iraq and the region. Electoral democracy, predictably, would put Shiite groups in power — groups supported by Iran since Saddam Hussein repressed them in 1991. Why are so many members of Congress swallowing the claim that prolonging the war is now supposed to prevent precisely what starting the war inexorably and predictably caused? Fear that Congress will confront this contradiction helps explain the administration and neocon drumbeat we now hear for expanding the war to Iran.
Here we see shades of the Nixon-Kissinger strategy in Vietnam: widen the war into Cambodia and Laos. Only this time, the adverse consequences would be far greater. Iran's ability to hurt U.S. forces in Iraq are not trivial. And the anti-American backlash in the region would be larger, and have more lasting consequences.
3) We must prevent the emergence of a new haven for al-Qaeda in Iraq. But it was the U.S. invasion that opened Iraq's doors to al-Qaeda. The longer U.S. forces have remained there, the stronger al-Qaeda has become. Yet its strength within the Kurdish and Shiite areas is trivial. After a U.S. withdrawal, it will probably play a continuing role in helping the Sunni groups against the Shiites and the Kurds. Whether such foreign elements could remain or thrive in Iraq after the resolution of civil war is open to question. Meanwhile, continuing the war will not push al-Qaeda outside Iraq. On the contrary, the American presence is the glue that holds al-Qaeda there now.
4) We must continue to fight in order to "support the troops." This argument effectively paralyzes almost all members of Congress. Lawmakers proclaim in grave tones a litany of problems in Iraq sufficient to justify a rapid pullout. Then they reject that logical conclusion, insisting we cannot do so because we must support the troops. Has anybody asked the troops?
[snip]
But the strangest aspect of this rationale for continuing the war is the implication that the troops are somehow responsible for deciding to continue the president's course. That political and moral responsibility belongs to the president, not the troops. Did not President Harry S. Truman make it clear that "the buck stops" in the Oval Office? If the president keeps dodging it, where does it stop? With Congress?
So why are the Democrats having a tough time explaining this? A Glenn Greenwald post Sunday suggests that they need to learn how to talk about the issue and not cede ground to the neocon nonsense. Glenn covers an interview/exchange General Odom had with Hugh Hewitt, in which Odom bats away every neocon confusion Hewitt can throw at him. Read Glenn's post to see how it's done.
Finally, Firedoglake's Siun recommended an excellent British television documentary on how reporting of the war inevitably avoids showing its horrible realities, and thus contributes to the support for war. C&L has now posted a link and you can watch it there. Caution: It runs about 48 minutes and is sometimes strong stuff, so make sure you've got plenty of time to see it through. I may have more on this later in the week.
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F I T Z !!!
S C A R E C R O W !!!
. . .serving up hardy breakfast fare – beautifully constructed post there. Didn’t know about the Odom – Hewitt smackdown, I’m off for seconds
Fitz! and top of the morning to you, firepups :)
Good Morning, all!
Is there coffee?
Good morning from Boston/Cambridge, where we’re finally breaking our cars loose from the icy grip of the last few days. Whatever happened to just plain snow? You know, the pretty soft stuff?
Off to get some hot chocolate and the NYT.
Good Morning Scarecrow and all…
There was a segment on 60 minutes last night about Kurdistan. It showed how safe and prosperous it has grown. The Kurds say that the US has liberated them. Stark contrast.
They are building Malls, Universities and apartments. No bombings, people can safely go to market and conduct their daily activities without fear. No shortages of power, water or safety. They have a totally Kurd security/military force which is just under 200K.
Awesome post. Bush is hiding behind our troops and he forgets he is the commander-in-chief. Best part is:
We must continue to fight in order to “support the troops.” This argument effectively paralyzes almost all members of Congress. Lawmakers proclaim in grave tones a litany of problems in Iraq sufficient to justify a rapid pullout. Then they reject that logical conclusion, insisting we cannot do so because we must support the troops. Has anybody asked the troops?
here’s a big steamin’ full bodied cup OC, everyone must be busy provisioning popcorn -
have been working too much and am way behind w/ everything but FDL – so I didn’t see this until late last night -
Had Enough . . . . of Cro Magnon Goode and Remember The Alamo Issa ? ? ?
six minutes of plain speaking from Cong. Ryan (D – Ohio) worth sitting through just for the last two minutes
how it’s done
Excellent post, Scarecrow! Will send the link around.
Nan
katymine @ 6
Yes, I saw that segment; startling contrast between Kurdistan and the rest of Iraq. Why?
cbl @
2
Seconded.
Well, here’s some cheery news: Al-Qaeda Chiefs Seen to Regain Power — lead article in today’s NYT.
Time to trot it out: Had enough?
The Sunday neocon talking points were all about “commander in chief” and “micromanaging” the war, and that Murtha has no right to put conditions on the funding. What power do they have over him? It seems that only Obey has any power here.
Kurdistan is comprised of 95% Kurds with a single version of their religion. They are a single tribe from a single history.
When the Oil bigwigs drew the map of the middle east decades ago, they only cared who got what oil field and did not care a flying fig about the indigenous people, after all, they were just brown people.
Just think of our bloody past with Native Americans and the early settlers. Instead of bows and arrows and long guns they have bombs and the modern warfare equipment. I thought America is the biggest arms dealer in the world. Didn’t American companies sell arms to both Iraq and Iran during their war?
There is one topic I keep bringing up, the militarization of our society and how to fight it. It started around Vietnam and has grown increasingly. It starts with toys (GI Joe) and games, evolved into TeeVee shows. Movies that make it Ok to torture and rip body parts off just to save the day. With the current crop of video games and kids seeing murder on TeeVee everyday. Is it a wonder we are where we are?
Ok…. enough of a rant this Monday morning… better get to work…
OT: Mardi Gras parades abound today & tomorrow. C&L has link to article reminding us all of Big K damage to property & spirit still choking southern Louisiana & Gulf Coast:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/…..-for-whom/
Got many friends in the area, so can’t resist also linking to photos of how Baton Rouge parade krewes have kept on keepin’ on since 2005:
http://www.baton-rouge.com/MardiGras/
Marie Roget – thanks for C&L link and the Mardi Gras pics.
In fact, this outcome was predicted by the CIA and the State Department in late 1990 and early 1991 during the buildup to Desert Storm, which is the reason why George H.W. Bush didn’t topple Saddam at that time.
wigwam –
In fact, this outcome was predicted by the CIA and the State Department in late 1990 and early 1991 during the buildup to Desert Storm, which is the reason why George H.W. Bush didn’t topple Saddam at that time.
Yep, and there were many others like Dean and Feingold who raised important concerns that turned out to be prescient.
Heart warming news when Americans are asked they deliver.
http://1480kphx.com/index.php?…..amp;id=103
Since you have been exposed to the little Phoenix Air America station with Christy’s interviews, they have been doing a donation drive for residents of Jackson County Miss. Well Phoenix responded and so did businesses.
Union Pacific railroad has donated rail cars to transport goods to the area.
Last week a caravan of 4 U-Haul trucks drove from PHX to Miss with donations. Delivered on Valentines day.
And thanks to you, Scarecrow, for including the Odom op-ed in your post. Had read it @ the time, but you reminded me to send it to all in my address book this a.m…
thanks scarecrow and suin for the video link. at your suggestion, i just watched it – it does bring home the wasteful horror of this war. so very, very sad.
odom and hewitt audio is available here. somehow, for me, much more of the frustration (odom’s) and idiocy (hewitt’s) comes through in the audio than in the transcript.
Hi, Selise – thanks much for the Odom/Hewitt audio link.
Hayes Press Secretary Tony Snow, June, 1876
Helen, you had a question.
Yes, thank you. What went wrong at Little Big Horn?
I’m not sure anything went wrong.
Excuse me?
Look, Helen. Let me tell you something about war. It’s not pretty and no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy. No one could have forseen that a large group of Sioux would surround our troops and slaughter the very troops trying to secure their land for the United States.
But no one survived.
Look. I’m not going to get into a back-and-forth about who shot John, here. The fact is that we have a plan for the Western territories and we feel we will be greeted as liberators.
So we should view this as a victory?
Yes. And what I mean by that is that sure, would we love to win every battle? Of course. Do we wish things had gone better? Of course we do. But I think President Hayes’ commitment to keeping the buffalo fields out of the hands of the Indians came through loud and clear.
Next question.
frogmarcher you’re a snarker after my own heart.
“The Delusion of Victory” is right. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the ideological matrix that traps us centers on the delusion that we are a “Good People” with our hearts in the right place at all times, and that we are invincible in battle.
Neither notion is true.
The militarization of society bothers me too. It is pervasive on so many levels — I’m not optimist about it getting better. I’ve been wrong before and I hope I am about this. When the “Vietnam Syndrome” became a phrase in common usage that was a sign to me that we were headed for some backlash. It has been said that Grenada and Panama invasions served to test the public’s sentiment for supporting military action. There was probably a big national sense of relief in Gulf War I that people could feel happy about war again. I mean I think people were generally happy playing “Tie a Yellow RIbbon ‘Round the Old Oak Tree” putting up yellow ribbons and putting care packages together.
One of the big reasons I think that Bush won re-election is that war and aggression are sexier than diplomacy. In our entertainment culture phrases like “a diplomatic solution” put people to sleep while “We’re at war” gets their attention. It takes some misery and personal loss for “a diplomatic solution” to start to sound good.
I think most of the gun rights debate is entwined with similar sentiment. The idea of gun control is definitely out of favor or at best ignored nowadays.
katymine @
14
Paul Krugman has an interesting op-ed today about politicians’ unwillingness to admit they made a mistake. He’s dealing with Hillary who won’t and Edwards who did and McCain who can’t and then he gets to Giuliani:
froggermarch — great snark takeoff from the earlier presser. I’m still stunned about Tony Snow lecturing anyone about the realities of war.
Scarecrow @
10
They had a ten year head start?
Kurdistan has been pretty well seperate and independent since GWI, haven’t they? I though it was part of the continual bombing (protection) through the 90s of the north and south.
I was reading about Victoria T, at No Quarter and this occurred to me :
You know, a few weeks back I book marked this page :
http://www.scooterlibby.com/
And Victoria, and that husband of hers were listed as being on the Advisory Committee. Now, they’re not there …. But her article is linked.
i was so frustrated last week, listening to our representatives during the iraq “debate”. they confuse the iraq war with terrorism, then they misunderstand why we are at risk from terrorist attacks.
as atrios keeps saying, we are governed by morons.
this link is a year and a half old… but it somehow it hasn’t sunk in yet. i keep wishing that robert pape’s book was more widely read. i don’t agree with his politics, but he has assembled the only (to my knowledge) empirical study of suicide terrorism and those that participate in it. the results are surprising – and quite different than what one would think after listening to our representatives.
1. suicide terrorism isn’t about islam. (see the tamil tigers)
2. it is a campaign to convince a democracy to remove combat troops from an occupied land.
3. it is correlated with a religious DIFFERENCE between the occupied and the occupiers.
i worry that the more our representatives focus on islam (and therefor on perceived religious differences) the more they help confirm the rational that is used to recruit people to use suicide terrorism to attack us.
here’s a more recent paper by pape…. and here’s good seminar/discussion from september, “The War on Terrorism Five Years after 9/11“
COLORADO BOB @ 29
I just now read Toensing’s op-ed. What a crock of crap! Mostly a rehash of long-discredited RNC talking points from http://www.gop.com/News/Read.aspx?ID=5630
I’m appalled that WaPo prints such nonsense.
why do they continue to call this war in iraq mistake its not a mistake is
a child spillin there milk at dinner
fallin for hot chick 22 in a chat room when ur really fallin for fat bald guy with hairy ass
payin way to much for ue auto insurence
those r mistakes
goin into iraq waz a ‘cold and caculated decision from day one that is not a mistake
I don’t know why the Dems don’t throw the “emboldening” arguement right back at the Repubs. The current stragegy has resulted in over 3,000 US dead. The insurgents want to kill more. What could be more emboldening to them than blindly following the same policy?
Good stuff Scarecrow, which I would like to add to a bit.
Here is a fact:
If the Iraq invasion and occupation had gone as well as the Bush administration would like use to believe that the Afghanistan invasion went (circa 2002), we almost certainly would have already invaded Iran. Through this prism, the fact that the administration is utterly unprepared for Iranian influence in Iraq makes considerably more sense.
Additionally, does anyone consider it plausible that Iran would sit idly by while an imperial power with a stated objective of regime change in their country establishes huge military bases in a neighboring country? Puh-leeze!
peace,
jim
COLORADO BOB @ 29
Thanks for the link, Bob.
Looking over the members of the Advisory Committee, I thought it hilarious that they list Jeanne Kirpatrick (1934-2006). They claim to be taking advice from a dead person.
And I mean a real dead person, not just the ones like Ms. Vicki who only come out at night.
Occupation is the issue.
Great post Scarecrow, great snark froggermarch ;( and thank you selise @ 30– important stuff.
Get these folks home now and let us endeavor to be honest and just brokers for real peace and end our imperial ways. We are such a young and seriously misguided nation.
I remain ashamed for all they do in my name.
I apologize if this has been linked to previously:
http://www.counterpunch.org/feingold02172007.htm
Bill Odom got it right when he said that “Victory is not an option (in Iraq).” Until Jan 20, U.S. helicopters were getting shot down at the rate of about one every four weeks. Since then the rate has increased to two per week.
Also, per an Alexander Cockburn op-ed in yesterday’s LA Times, the opposition has learned how to manufacture,
for $20 apiece, five-pound EFP devices that can punch through three inches of armor and destroy whatever is behind it. These are more dangerous than a 200-pound IED, and have a range of several tens of yards.
Bush needs a scapegoat and another hobby horse to ride.
angie, thanks for the Feingold quote; I couldn’t get the link to work.
Selise @ 29 -
it really is a small company town, innit ?
liar, liar, ferragamos on fire !
Try this link Scarecrow! Sorry.
http://www.informationclearing…..e17113.htm
There is one central truth (well, three related ones, I suppose you could say) that isn’t being admitted by anyone to the right of David Broder:
Bush doesn’t intend to win this war.
Bush doesn’t know *how* to win this war.
Bush just wants to run out the clock on this war.
That’s why he said we’d be in Iraq as long as he’s president. He’s not even holding out the *possibility* that we could win and go home earlier than 2009. Normally, don’t presidents offer the prospect of *WINNING* the wars they’re running?
folks, looseheadprop has another excellent legal explanation coming up in a few minutes — this one on closing arguments.
To get you in the right frame of mind, here’s a NYT story on the stakes in the Libby trial. The Defendant isn’t the only player with a personal stake in the Libby verdict.
cbl @ 38
yep. and this will amuse you… i recently found that pape seminar/discussion (i’d listened to a couple of others, but this is an especially good one) when i went looking for more Flynt Leverett info after reading the article you linked to.
p.s. steve clemens is all over the rove / leverett story.
howdy angie! waving…
We love our troops to death.
I can’t help it.
Every time I see one of those bumper stickers now that say We love our troops, the above phrase comes to mind.
I can’t believe that people still believe this administration. And fall for the Republican crap that I do not support the troops because I want to bring them home now, not surge them into oblivian.
Our soldiers do not have the proper equiptment and are battle weary.
My son’s friend was over the other day. He’s being sent back for a second time to Iraq. But that’s misleading because his first tour was extended by 6-8 months so he’s will be serving about 21/2 tours. He twitches alot and can’t look you in the face when he talks to you. I asked him about the Iraq people. He wants to kill them all. We are sending a soldier to a country who wants to kill all the people. But we are suppose to be sending the soldiers to Iraq to establish a Democracy.
Is this how we are now defining a democracy?
I want our troops home because the President of the United States lied to us about the need to go to war, has put these soldiers in danger because they did not have the proper equipment because of the rushed war and because ALL the information from the PEOPLE THAT UNDERSTAND what is going on in IRAQ say they this is a FAILURE and is doing more harm then good.
God help our country if this insanity does not stop.
thanks selise – I just got back from Clemons place and saw the story -
this and the Dusty Foggo indictment were gargantuan holes in the media blatherings last week – I know we should all be used to it by now but all that talk of
Republican Guards and WMDQuds and ‘tailfins’ ^%$!%#!and who knew Ney spoke Farsi ?!?!
New thread upstairs Looseheadprop on the Libby defense summation.
Morning all!
Wow. Steak for breakfast. Thanks Scarecrow! Fits my mood to a tee. I shall backtrack and enjoy the read.
Even before arriving at the Lake this a.m., I woke up so angry, I sent off a blistering upside-the-head style screed to Ohio’s “senator” voinovich.
‘fraid I don’t expect him to change his stripes. He’s always been a wimpy, go-along-to-get-along brand of politician. Pretends the nice-guy. His voting record and actions, such as they are, speak otherwise.
Hopefully someone’s scouting around for a nice red-blooded Democrat to knock mr. v. off the podium next election.
These bozos are just blindly handing off our democracy and thanking the crooks who’re only too happy to take over!
!ENOUGH!
Happy Presidents’ Day! Bah! Humbug!
WAAAAAAAAAH! I want a REAL president!
AND a REAL CONGRESS!
Oh heck.
Wouldn’t hurt to have a proper judicial branch in the bargain…. *sigh*
OfT, as has already been mentioned, tomorrow, Victoria Toensig will “chat” with WaPo readers about her spectacular exercise in jury tampering and self-serving dissimulation. Who feeds Victoria the questions that we have sentin for the online chat? Who at the WaPo warranties that she responds in a proportionally accurate way to the readers who send in questions/comments?
If there was a way we could get Froomkin involved, it might really help?
I’m going to write ombudsman@washpost.com, but I’m afraid this still goes to Debbie Howell. Anyone with a better handle on the details, I’d appreciate any info that will insure a less unfair chat tomorrow.
How about responding by saying:
Your “argument” is completely discredited; we’ve been there for YEARS with NO SIGN of victory…in fact things are getting worse. YOU need to explain why we should continue the carnage and send more of our sons and daughters to their deaths.
Telling the truth is a good strategy.
Thanks for the heads up, JC. And thanks for jumpng into the fray in the WaPo comments following Ms. Vicki’s noxious fuming. I noticed you were holding down the fort quite well!
using bushleaguelogic, we probably ought to attack ourownselves, for all the weapons our country has sold into the area over the last umpteen years…
IMPEACH. NOW.
What Publicus said.
How fucking hard is it for Democrats to realize that there’s always some reporter or columnist who’ll print what you say if you *talk* about the *need* to *TALK* about being stronger, but who won’t give you the fucking time of day if you are actually *saying* – or better yet, *doing* – or best yet, *BOTH* – what needs to be said and done.
Sheesh, it’d be enough to quote the Post’s own fucking reporting (well, I mean the recent stuff about Walter Reed, rather than the usual fiction from “senior administration officials who speak on the condition of anonymity”) back at their writers and say, “Republicans don’t support the troops. Republicans don’t want to win the war. Republicans want to get more Americans killed for nothing. Any discussion – any *WORDS* beyond those – are superfluous and designed to confuse people from what is really happening – which Republicans are very, very good at.”
froggermarch @
23
Nice snark, and i hope you get your handle’s wish. Meanwhile, the parable continues when one considers the insane hubris on the part of Yellowhair, which caused it all to go wrong. Not that i’m undermining my own troops, mind you.
wigwam @ 17
And it’s this very point that the Dems in Congress and on all the talking head shows should repeat again and again…this is the worst foreign policy disaster in American history and it was totally predictable. In fact, so predictable that President George H. Bush did not invade Iraq and depose Hussein during the first Gulf War.
Not only is it true – but it will drive Bush & Cheney nuts. Bush’s daddy was right and Bush/Cheney are dead wrong.
We need to get our troops out of Iraq and move them into Afghanistan so they can crush a resurgent Taliban (really that’s the perfect exit strategy, isn’t it?)
I agree — that has been the most effective rhetorical approach. Since the war mongers lie — 90% of the time you can take their own words and use them against them–reversing the take home point and not be wrong.
FeralLiberal @
33
forgive the paraphrase:
“how can you ask someone to be the last man to die for a soundbite?”
The Democrats have taken a tip from the Christian right wing — “Love the sinner, hate the sin” and transformed it to “Love the troops, hate the strategy.” It is total BS.
Brownie, simple arsed minds can’t separate the two.
Right-wingers will never accept iraq as ‘the worst foreign policy mistake in the history of this country’. They’re still fighting vietnam.
Redstate: Angry white men still furious about Vietnam
In the endless parade of five minute speeches that served as audio wallpaper in my life late last week, I found my ears perked up when I heard the words “acceptable outcome”.
We are going to be in &/or near Iraq for several decades now as a stabilizing force, forever the dutch boy holding back the regional sectarian conflagration.
Starting this war under known false pretenses with established prior intent is a high crime. If we love our country and wish to pass the republic onto our children, we owe it to posterity to work for the impeachment, removal and incarceration of those who perpetrated this fraud and carnage upon our citizenry and middle east.
We resume our fight with those who wish us harm, but now that our fearless leader and W too have no credibility left, doing battle in Pakistan without toppling that regime may be impossible.
God Rot Dick Cheney.
Satan raught Dick Cheney.