
Former prosecutor Victoria Toensing has an op-ed in the Washington Post today (debunked nicely by Larry Johnson)outlining her case for Scooter Libby's acquittal. In two words: jury nullification.
(Thanks, Victoria, for attempting to personally smear the prosecutor on the eve of closing arguments. I bet if a true criminal defense lawyer wrote an article like that you'd accuse him or her of trying to influence the jury pool.)
Toensing is playing to the court of public opinion here, not the court of law. By setting forth her grounds for indicting others in the case, she's advocating exactly what Patrick Fitzgerald has said he's on guard against: the defense playing the jury nullification card, arguing that it's not fair Libby was charged while others weren't.
I don't think Team Libby is going to make that argument, at least not directly. They know Patrick Fitzgerald would repeatedly interrupt Wells' closing to object and there's few things worse than losing your rhythm and the jury's undivided attention in closing because of objections from the other side.
I suspect Wells will argue reasonable doubt. He will tell the jury there is a reasonable doubt that Russert, Cooper, Miller, et. al. are accurate in their recall of conversations while Libby is not. He will tell them that even if they believe the Government witnesses are accurate, they must have a reasonable doubt that Libby intentionally lied or tried to mislead the grand jury, as opposed to being mistaken. All Wells needs for a not guilty verdict is for the jury to weigh the evidence and conclude one of these eight scenarios apply:
- Based upon the evidence presented, we the Jury find that the defendant is absolutely 100% innocent
- Based upon the evidence presented, we the Jury, cannot be absolutely sure that the defendant is innocent.
- Based upon the evidence presented, we the Jury are confident that the defendant is innocent
- Based upon the evidence presented, we the Jury believe that the defendant is probably innocent.
- Based upon the evidence presented, we the Jury are not really sure one way or the other if the defendant is guilty or innocent
- Based upon the evidence presented, we the Jury believe it is more likely that not that the defendant is guilty.
- Based upon the evidence presented, we the Jury believe that the defendant is probably guilty.
- We the Jury believe that the defendant is guilty but the evidence falls a little short and we cannot find that the defendant is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
Wells will go through each of the Government witnesses and show where and how their memories likely were inaccurate,inconsistent or not credible. For example, Ari Fleischer denied he was a source for Walter Pincus while Pincus testified Ari was one of his sources. Wells will not argue Ari Fleischer should have been charged with perjury. He will argue that both Fleischer and Pincus can't be correct and that if Fleischer's memory failed him on the Pincus conversation, maybe it also failed him on his conversation with Libby — the one in which Libby told him about Joseph Wilson's wife working at the CIA and having a role in sending him to Niger and that it was "hush, hush" and "on the q.t."
While Libby isn't charged with lying about his conversation with Fleischer, it's another example of how faulty everyone's memory is in this case.
With Matthew Cooper, Wells will argue that Cooper misconstrued his sloppily typed notes, which read:
"had somethine and abou the Wilson thing and not sure if it's ever."
Wells will ask the jury, given the examples they saw of Cooper typing the letter "r" for "n" in other notes, and using the word "and" as a pause between sentences, how can they be certain Cooper's note wasn't a reflection of Libby saying:
"heard something about the Wilson thing and not sure if it's even true"?
Cooper says his recollection now is that Libby said "Yeah I've heard that, too or words to that effect." But it's not in his notes. Which is more trustworthy, Wells will ask the jury, what he wrote then or what he remembers now, or neither, since his notes are fairly undecipherable? How can the jury conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that Cooper's current memory is correct while Libby's memory as contained in his grand jury testimony is wrong?
Wells will tell the jury to use its common sense, particularly when it comes to memory. They will be instructed that a reasonable doubt is one that is based on reason and common sense. The jury is allowed to take its common sense, gathered from their lifetimes of experience, into the jury room.
He will ask them to remember times they have been certain they said "x" when it later turned out they said "y." Were they lying? Or simply mistaken? How can they not have a doubt that Libby too, was mistaken rather than lying?
I am not arguing here for Libby's acquittal. I'm not predicting an acquittal. (Personally, I think Wells has a Russert problem, and unless he argues that Libby mixed him up with another reporter, perhaps Novak, whom he spoke with on the 9th, just a day or two earlier than Russert, I’m not sure how he gets around it.) I'm merely pointing out what I think Wells' best arguments are and that he isn't going to go for a jury nullification argument, no matter how much Toensing wishes he would.
In fact, I can't think of a worse argument to make to the jury.
[Jeralyn Merritt blogs at TalkLeft: The Politics of Crime]
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Fitz!
FITZ!
I was just headed to Talkleft to get your perspective. Thanks for the post.
Jury nullification? That’s another word for a group of people ignoring the facts and giving us injustice. Nullification is one of the few things which make me want to think about getting upset.
Jeralyn! Great to meet you this week.
It bears repeating and update: WaPo comments on toensing’s OpEd are up to 39 nearly unanimously scathing pages of STFU. Mine:
Are there famous nullification cases other than the Simpson verdict?
Jeralyn, what happens to Fitz’s investigation after the Libby jury’s decision – whether he’s guilty or not guilty?
If Libby is NOT guilty, is Fitz done? Does he close up shop and turn off the lights?
If Libby is GUILTY, what, if anything, might Fitz do next?
AND BIG QUESTION: If Libby is guilty, how does that impact his future involvement in Fitz’s investigation? i.e., if Libby is guilty, is he compelled to cooperate with Fitz? What are Libby’s obligations to the Gov if he is found guilty? How does Libby’s conviction clear up the logjam that Fitz encountered?
Thanks to all for continuing excellent discussions of all things Fitz!
Jeralyn Rocks! Thank you so much.
Word Press screwed up:
I find jury nullification an extremely interesting thing. Has there been any research on what causes this?
clueless @ 8
If Scooter walks, I would expect Torture Boy to have Fitz removed, to shut any residual/ongoing things down.
_
Jeralyn, if you have time or the interest, I’m interested if you think there is even a chance that Judge Walton will want to discuss this with Victoria.
Also FWIW, the WaPo has featured some neocon pieces lately, Fred Hiatt, Byron York…, and they just get hammered in the comments section that the WaPo now provides. Victoria’s TRIAL IN ERROR appears to have been leaked to a lot of wingnuts, because they jumped into the Comments section early to praise her article. I think we’re catching up now wrt the number of comments against her article, but that wasn’t the case in the first ten pages or so of comments.
BobbyG, I’m up to page 13 on the WP comments and they seem to be about 3 to 1 in favor of her editorial. If I keep reading, will I reach the more reasonable posts?
John Casper @ 12
Obviously we need a truth squad to monitor such wingnuttry and react to it quickly. Squash the Swifties like the bugs they are.
I suspect Wells will argue reasonable doubt. He will tell the jury there is a reasonable doubt that Russert, Cooper, Miller, et. al. are accurate in their recall of conversations while Libby is not.
The beginning of a great explanation of what Wells has to do. Nice, Jeralyn. Is Christy going to present Fitz’s probable tack next?
Teresa @ 13
Someone pointed out that the winguts are there early, but the comments go WAY anti the further you read.
_
Isn’t it time to inform WaPravda advertisers that we cannot patronize establishments that associate with attacks on federal prosecutors who have managed successful cases against terrorists?
John Casper @12: Drudge Report…that’s how lots of wingnuts caught her oped.
All that matters here is that Libby failed to take the stand. It’s a bigger factor to a jury than anything else on the table.
The only nullification will be to Libby’s ego.
EPU’d from 2 threads ago, but tis on topic and I believe it is important:
Hope ya’ll can send Vicki some FDL
peacepiece of mind!Ta to Beresford for the heads-up!
Slothrop @ 19
Will Fitz be permitted to bring up all of the bogus grand defense opening promises? (recognizing that he can’t cast direct aspersions regarding Scooter’s silence)
Celtic Music at 6:38 pm, you may well be right.
My guess is that Hiatt’s and York’s recent WaPo pieces were linked by Drudge as well. Neither of those, however, had a shred of support from the wing nuts. They got steamrolled by the middle and the left. It might have been a sucker play from Barbara Comstock. Let Hiatt and York get slaughtered, but for this article, timed for the weekend before jury deliberations begin, she unloosed the hounds from neocon hell to support TRIAL IN ERROR. JMO.
Jeralyn,
thank you for all your work in the FDL coverage – with your welcomed (and delicious) perspective, the readers here have enjoyed truly unprecedented reporting
Jeralyn, it’s been remarkable — and sobering — to have your perspective as a criminal defense attorney here at FDL for the duration. Thank you very much for giving us your view of the trial.
Do you think that Judge Walton will bring Lady Victoria into court, based upon her personal attacks today on the prosecutor and the process? Isn’t there still a grand jury engaged — and can’t she be held responsible for this blatant attempt at influencing the petit jury as well?
Anyway, thanks for this sobering review of the possibilities this week — it’s not encouraging to realize there are EIGHT opportunities to acquit, and only really ONE to convict. But it’s good to have my expectations managed, even so.
BobbyG – thanks, I’ll keep reading. The posters so far don’t sound intelligent enough to read the Washington Post (sorry to be mean).
Here is an interesting dkos diary by Carolyn Kay of MakeThemAccountable.com on the matter of the Post’s call for jury nullification: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/2/18/183442/042
If Libby did skate, do we think there’d be an uproar?
Mad Dogs at 6:40 pm
You da man!
Great catch.
Nice thing about the WaPo is, we don’t have to wait. We can start submitting questions and comments right now, at least that has always been their policy in the past.
Bad news is that Victoria can pick only the questions to answer that she wants.
Usual caveats, WaPo won’t allow obscenities and oaths, unless they are directed against the left or Democrats.
BobbyG @ 6
What a great comment BobbyG! I’ll head over there to see what other folks have written.
Similar to other commenters’ experiences – I was in college during the Watergate hearings and I held the Washington Post, under the able leadership of Katherine Graham and Ben Bradley, in the highest esteem. It saddens me no end to see the direction Graham’s son has taken the Post and I think Katherine would be appalled.
wigwam @ 26
This conclusion of the letter referenced there is totally kick-ass:
BobbyG @
6
Oh my, my, my what a fine way you have with words – especially appreciate “abetted by the Washington Post”…. kudos kiddo!
OT, Celtic Music, I left something for you on the prior thread.
The dynamics of nullification is what I am interested in.
Victoria Toensing chatz at WaPo 1pm eastern on Tuesday.
Questions may be submitted at any time.
Jeralyn, Scooter would have picked you to defend himself, except for the fact, IMHO, he went to trial to help DeadEye figure out what cards Fitz is holding.
There is no appeal to nullification. How utterly frustrating. Nullification: the ultimate breakdown of the legal system.
posaune @ 17
Oh indeed it is, IMHO, definitely time to wail on not simply advertisers but WaPravda owners/managers as well. They are practically begging for cancellations of ad revenues and smackdown from readers.
I do not like the NY Times either.
John Casper @ 35
Didn’t find out much, did he?
Somehow, I don’t think my ‘So, how about that last-ditch punt at jury tampering over the holiday weekend?’ will make it past the screener.
WaPo: in the motherfucking establishment tank. Walter Pincus puts them to shame every time he walks into the office.
John Caspar: Thanks for the heads up on the earlier thread…and for your comments. I’ve seen some of those comments at Kos. Just that I’ve found precious little in terms of policy from the Dem candidates. As for your suggestion of sharing with Jane and Christy, thanks for the vote of confidence in this newbie and e-stranger. Might be a good start for some kind of FDL wiki-like-object, where others could search and augment or correct what I’ve found on candidates’ positions.
(For those who missed my epu’ed comment, I mentioned that I’ve been making a spreadsheet of where Dem presidential candidates stand–or sit–on some key issues, so my friends and I can do a better job of tire-kicking.)
Regarding your earlier Drudge comment: he may not have linked to York or Hiatt. I try to browse his site regularly to see what he’s pushing, but can’t always make myself.
newspaperbrat @ 31
Blush. Majorly. Thanks.
Here’s a good laugh at my “way with words” a few years back, fighting the TIA domestic spying thingy. (Yes, I actually sent it.)
Still following and fighting that battle.
_
No, from what I can glean from emptywheel, Fitz did a helluva job of crafting the indictment and navigating the pre-trial CIPA concerns. IANAL, so I have to take others word for it.
I think it is a scandal that judges and prosecutors hate the notion of our constitutional right to jury nullification and try to keep juries from learning about it (and prevent jurors that know about it from serving)
While I think Libby and Rove and Cheney should literally swing from the rafters, I would actually be happy to trade Libby for a highly publicized case of jury nullification
[Mod Note; We at Firedoglake would appreciate it if you did not reference violence or corporal punishment. Talking about violence and hanging in any way is just not something we encourage here. Period. -Thank you.]
With so much other stuff to focus on, I forgot there was a big Anglican pow wow going on this past week. A few thoughts about it here:
Table fellowship and Virginia ham
Joe Conason: The Future of Democracy and the Rule of Law in Danger
Q: If Scooter walks, does Fitz get the boot? (Recognizing, of course, that a not-guilty verdict will unleash an aggregate wingnut embolism of self-righteous indignation).
That’s my fear, that Torture Boy gives Fitzie the axe. Thoughts?
_
So Wells and Fitzgerald will both implore the jury to use their common sense in reaching a verdict. (Fitz already did in his opening statement.) It will come down to whose common sense is more commonsensical.
In other news, on Tweety’s show today Woodward opined that this whole trial was no big deal, but whatever decision the jury reaches, it will be the right one. Andrea Mitchell said she will not speak until the trial is over. Only then will she explain her drunkenness and enter Betty Ford. David Brooks thought the jury would be hung, although he didn’t say how well hung. Matthews thought the jury would convict on several but not all counts.
I have to wonder whether the majority of Americans care a twit about the Libby outcome. Are there any polls to suggest otherwise?
jerry @ 44
Jerry – could you or someone else please explain what ‘jury nullification’ means? I have no idea what it means, but I’m gathering that I’ll be pissed when I find out what it means. Thanks.
Jeralyn – thank you for rebuking Ms. Toensing. I respect your passionate defense of an accused individual’s right to a fair and effective defense – and have found your perspective on the Libby trial fascinating, even if I don’t always share your point of view. It will be interesting to see whether Wells takes the approach you have laid out for us, and how Fitz will counter with his closing statements.
I also wanted to recommend Larry Johnson’s response to Toensing hit piece at his No Quarter blog. Not surprisingly, as a former colleague of Valerie Plame, he is incensed by the irresponsibility of the WaPo and Toensing’s evil motives. Here’s an excerpt:
http://noquarter.typepad.com/m……html#more
jerry, on what possible grounds could Scooter have a shot at Jury nullification?
If the defense is going to be “I mixed him up with another reporter”, then the jury should have heard that from scoots.
Having his lawyer stand up and say “Maybe he mixed him up with another reporter”- with scoots SITTING right there- will be- well- strange.
I would be surprised if more than 25% of the public even knows this trial is going on.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 49
OK, I think most Americans probably do care that justice is served. Whether or not they know the details of this particular case, they do care.
Once again our job is highlighted for us. Illuminate!
clueless @ 50
Where a jury decides that “justice” is 180 degrees out of phase with the law and decides in contravention of any rational assessment of the law and the evidence. O.J. Simpson verdict is typically seen as emblematic here.
Or, say, hypothetically, some kid is up for life without parole on some relatively minor drug beef, and the jury acquits even though the evidence is beyond a reasonable doubt that he’s guilty. That kind of thing.
Goes the other way too. See John Grishham’s depressing “The Innocent Man: Murder and Injustice in a Small Town.”
i.e., railroading.
_
I’m not saying that I think that OJ was at choir practice that night, but I think it was not preposterous for the jury to conclude that his guilt was not proved beyond a reasonable doubt, and unfair to accuse them of nullification.
- the glove didn’t fit.
- Detective Van Atter drove around for several days with a vial of OJ’s blood in his car.
- Police Technician Dennis Fung’s testimony about apparently lax handling of the physical evidence was disastrous for the prosecution.
- Officer Fuhrman did not credibly explain his decision to enter OJ’s property without a warrant.
- some of Fuhrman’s racist baggage got into evidence.
I just can’t see Libby not being convicted of something.
“Jury Nullification” is when a jury says:
“Yeah the guy’s guilty- but this thing shouldn’t even BE a crime- and besides we LIKE the guy- so we’ll forget about the law and let him go.”
Oklahoma kiddo @ 58
Heh. That’s what my Mom use to say about me…
I started off the blogging day dismissing concerns about possible jury tampering , thinking it was just one more monkey flinging waste – but as the day progressed and I read more, this may in fact be what Comstock is up to -
As noted above, jury nullification has been used in the past to acquit those harboring slaves, fighting sodomy laws, protesting 3 strikes clauses, etc.
Jury Nullification appears t/b a recently added arrow in the wingnut quiver – hell, Jeralyn commented on a case in October 03 where some winger Govt. Official was handing out pamphlets advocating the practice to potential jurors
no really, here’s the link
it really could be a dogwhistle to some juror with fundie sensibilities -
and it’s not like it would be the first time these people subverted something good and decent to their own facist ends -
Toensing forgot to indict Judge Walton for patiently hearing the case and making rulings. JUDGE WALTON……GUILTY!!!!! Do not pass go. Go directly to jail!
Victoria Townsing reminds me of one of my grad school professors- who said about the dept. head’s wife:
“Something about her makes you want to fart in her presence.”
I like to think that the uproar here and elsewhere about Vickie The Toe’s efforts WILL make a difference.
Someone somewhere will alert Walton to this. Would he have known already? Maybe. Will he hear about it now? Oh yeah.
Has it occurred to anyone that tomorrow is President’s Day?
How will you be honoring your Commander In Chief?
I plan to honor the pres first thing in the morning- while sitting.
Balrog @ 64
And I wonder what Fitz thinks? I was hopping mad when I saw the Outlook section in the Post today, and the “mug shot” pictures accompanying that piece.
cbl @ 61
Someday, a fundie wingnut is going to realize that two can play that game…
Balrog @ 65
Same way I always do. I’ll be taking a dump first thing in the morning.
Puma- I’m sure that two HAVE played that game.
Sparkles the Iguana @ 62
Y’know, all of these assholes are so tiresome in their willful ignorance, intellectual laziness, and ideological submissiveness.
EVERYONE is wrong but them. The entire DOJ, the grand jury, the courts. Several years of investigation — all over NOTHING! Y’see, there was “no underlying crime here.” POTUS and VPOTUS possess unlimited ad hoc insta-declassification authority, which they exercised at the outset.
Never mind that it BEGS THE FUCKING QUESTION AT 140 dB — “why didn’t y’all just go comprehensively public ’setting the record straight’ on Day One? You had the ‘facts’ that comprised a vital national interest. Get them out, in the open. Why the need for all the evasions, stonewalling, and lying leading to perjury?”
We know why.
_
Jury nullification is very rare – really, it is. And the idea that jury nullification might be in play in this trial (whether or not his attorneys bring it up even cryptically) b/c either Toensing wrote an OP ED, or b/c some great social equity is at stake is pretty close to ridiculous (other than in the quantum sense of anything can happen).
And they won’t bring it up for the simple fact that they know the effect would be to end ANY chance that they have at acquital or a hung jury – seriously – no attorney in this case is going to argue “Sure, he did it, but there were others and their not here, so you shouldn’t convict.”
Now, what juries might do (and Tweety is on to something per the comment above) is say OK, the guy is charged with say 6 separate offenses, and will only convict on 4 or 5, even if that results in what are known as inconsistent verdicts. That isn’t jury nullification, but that does often happen. It is also possible that the jury really might not believe the gov’t proved all of the elements of each offense, but see the “inconsistent” verdict thing.
Of course, anything is possible, he could be acquited of all charges, there could be a hung jury, they could argue “nullification.” But none of those are the way to bet.
rwcole @ 70
I guess that cheap shot was just too easy for just one of this braintrust to come up with it.
Apologies for the length, I pasted in the last full page of comments at TRIAL IN ERROR, so people could get a feel for the commenters. Percentage of comments against TRIAL IN ERROR has improved dramatically from earlier in the day.
TeddySanFran @ 34
Thanks for the linky – here is my question to Ms. Toensing:
I would like to know what law school you went to and where you are currently licensed to practice law? Your advocacy on behalf of VP Cheney’s former Chief of Staff, Scooter Libby, in the Washington Post newspaper reveals invincible ignorance and/or deliberate malfeasance as an officer of the court and member of the Bar, at worst. In any event you owe an apology to WP readers, your friend the criminal defendant Scooter Libby, his defense team, U.S. Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald and the U.S. District Court Judge Walton.
Balrog @ 65
By asking everyone to pay this forward. Each one reach two (minimally).
_
I know it’s Prez Day tomorrow, ’cause there’s no school and I have the day off.
Vicky could care less WHERE Scoots spends the next twenty years- but every outrageous statement she makes rings the cash register for Vickie and her disgusting spouse- as wingnuts with legal problems all across american jot down her number.
newspaperbrat @ 73
It looks like you neglected to phrase that in the form of a question. How about, “Vickie, do you ever look at yourself in the mirror in the morning and think, ‘Sweet Zombie Jesus, I really am a media bimbo?’
Great job newspaperbrat.
Balrog @
65
Getting a blow job.
BobbyG @ 75
Ack! Teletubbies attack The Bulge!
Fucking Acid flashbacks…
Wow- from TPM
Republican donor, no less
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/0…..8520.shtml
Bullseye, thanks.
Balrog @ 79
I love the dude in the back giving him a left-handed salute, LOL!
_
diGenova & Toensing, LLP
diGenova & Toensing is accomplished at lawyering
at the intersection of law, politics, and the media.
diGenova & Toensing is a Washington, DC law firm with a national and international practice helping clients resolve legal, governmental, and legislative issues. The Firm handles civil and criminal cases and represents both corporations and individuals at the investigative, grand jury, trial, and appellate stages. It also has extensive experience representing clients before Congress, the Departments of Justice, State, and Treasury as well as other government agencies.
Joseph E. diGenova, founding partner, is a former U.S. Attorney for the District of Columbia, former Chief Counsel and Staff Director of the U.S. Senate Rules Committee, former Independent Counsel, and former Special Counsel to the U.S. House of Representatives.
Victoria Toensing, founding partner, is a former Deputy Assistant Attorney General in the Criminal Division of the U.S. Justice Department, former Chief Counsel of the U.S. Senate Intelligence Committee, and former Special Counsel to the U.S. House of Representatives. Toensing is an internationally known expert on white-collar crime, terrorism, national security, and intelligence matters.
Brady Toensing, partner, is a former Special and Legislative Assistant to Senator Warren B. Rudman.
rwcole @ 54
What matters is the effect on the Beltway journalists, pundits, and Executive Branch.
This at bottom a case about the engrained Cold War corruption of secrecy under the claim of “national security” in the Executive Branch and the media collusion in it.
As today’s Washington Post reflects, the political and media establishment in Washington feel it more desirable to carry on the corruption and reap its fruits than reform.
What is Fitzgeralds billing rate to the American taxpayer? There lies the answer. It hyas nothing whatsoever to do with justice. Its about billable hours. Hes amassing a fortune at our expense, for nothing!
LOL!! Good one.
newspaperbrat @ 73
Mine…
Is Robert Novak looking over your shoulder as you write or just sitting beside you laughing an evil laugh with a bloody mary in hand? Perhaps you all will save the laughs while on your next hiatus in DE. Say hi to Babs Comstock and please tell us how much she paid you for Sundays piece.
rwcole @ 66
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
EvilDrPuma @ 78
Bwahahahahahaha! You should pose that question!
Perhaps you did not notice I began with the question of where she went to law school & where she is licensed to practice.
OT
Jane, if you’re here, I bought Natural Born Killers today.
Um, is it good?
Am I going to hurl chunks?
Can my 6 and 4 year old kids watch it with me?
If I don’t hear from you in 10 minutes or so I’m going to let them.
Thanks, Balrog
Balrog, I am not a parent, but NBK is not a kids’ movie….
I expect Libby to be found guilty- to appeal- to screw around with the appeal for two years- and then get a parnter from the President as he boards that helicopter for his last flight to Crawford.
“Take the last train ta Crawford- I’ll meetcha at the station….”
What is she talking about here?? Fitz said about 118 times at the presser that he was not going to “go outside the four corners of the indictment.”
TeddySanFran @ 92
Too late. I will not risk the Dad Sucks chant.
;)
Thanks TSF.
Based on the NYT’s article, Jane has either started or is looking forward to starting chemo.
Sparkles the Iguana @ 94
I believe he said ‘The Four Corners of the Round Table’.
DiGenova and Toensing are also married to each other, fwiw. Keeping it all in the family.
Balrog @ 92
Only if they’re 6 and 4 in dog years.
Balrog, are you kidding? Don’t let the kids watch it! Honest, it’s an adult film
Well, you caught me with that one. (Panic Parent)
itwasntme @ 101
He’s definitely joking. No sane father would expose his children to Woody Harrelson.
Balrog, I believe there is a rating system created so that each parent doesn’t have to ask a person involved in the film if the film is suitable for children.
Victoria would let children watch it.
Sounds like the kids will be sleeping in the parents bed tonight.
Eureka Springs, AR @ 87
LOL! Double-dog-dare you to cut & paste & send this right off via Teddy’s link at #34.
rwcole @
94
This is why we should all be writing Walton and ask that Libby be immediately remanded into custody. Three reasons:
1. The strength of the case convicting Libby.
2. The very low probability of successful appeal.
3. The importance of applying pressure to the continued investigation.
I expect the jury to return a ‘guilty’ verdict by Thursday.
I’d like to see Libby go to jail THIS THURSDAY.
Hey, maybe Toensing is the Victoria in Judy’s notes. Maybe Toensing is one of the leakers. INDICT YOURSELF, Victoria.
Don’t forget to chime in on TSF’s post at Give ‘Em Hell Harry…
Sparkles the Iguana @ 94
She is misrepresenting what Fitz said. Fitz said Libby was the “first known official”. Big difference. Based on available information, it was a true statement at the time. You can’t blame someone for not knowing what people are witholding or lying about and his choice of words accounted for that.
newspaperbrat – I did! That is what I sent…)
OT: Next up in our “Ministry of the Office of the Department of Redundancy Bureau” segment: John McCain panders to the extreme right wing.
Still, I think he could have stuffed a couple more prepared fundie talking points into that. Maybe six out of ten?
/
Suzanne @
104
Sorry folks, I thought the Snark would be obvious.
Jane, wherever you are, I hope that you still want the snark as you proceed. You have my full support.
o/t kinda -
reading the Larry Johnson piece (thanks dab in ct), I need to backtrack and ask about something I’m sure we’ve been over in the past -
why did Shooter ask CIA ? he didn’t trust them period, they had zero credibility with him, why didn’t he send one of his OVP, DIA, OSP, DOD, DOS minions ? considering the beast has spent his entire career in DC setting up and running his own parallel ops, why did he task them with something so important to him at the time, something that could help him get his Iraq on ?
sorry Firedogs, just one of those moments where all the facts, details, exhibits, chronologies swirling in the brain have caused a brownout *g*
rwcole @ 92
I loved everything you said except for the last part. Silly me – keep hoping Scooter’s gonna fold & make a deal with Fitz.
She is misrepresenting what Fitz said. Fitz said Libby was the “first known official”. Big difference. Based on available information, it was a true statement at the time. You can’t blame someone for not knowing what people are witholding or lying about and his choice of words accounted for that.
Good point, I remember that now.
EvilDrPuma @
103
Woody is why I have resisted for 20 years. Good call Dr.
clueless @ 87
Yeah, he’s the turd that won’t flush.
_
Balrog – How was the hi def version of the last waltz? Much better or about the same?
Shit, with Toensing indicting Fitz and Broder establishing that Bush has regained his footing, this is a very bad week indeed.
everyone’s favorite dino boy upstairs
Contemplative TRex upstairs.
Eureka Springs, AR @ 121
The Last Waltz is so wonderful, I figure I’ll keep on buying the latest and greatest version.
I can see the coke residue in Neil Young’s nose better than ever before, if that helps…
So… any speculation on how much Toensing got paid by the Libby Defense foundation for her hit piece in WaPo?
Does anyone know if there’s some way to find out?
Eureka Springs, AR @ 107
Gave Harry some impolite hell epu’d downstairs…would try to link it but am still practicing those skills ya’all kindly shared. :)
JGabriel @ 124
All I could imagine would be a subpoena of her bank records or an unlikely leak inside LDF. sigh.
Victoria is just trying for a mistrial.
Balrog @ 96
Balrog – I’m a parent and I can say, unequivocally, that NBK is NOT appropriate for small children. Yikes.
Evil Parallel Universe @ 72
Hi Folks– this writer is correct. In fact, juries in federal cases are routinely instructed that they are only there to decide the guilt or non-guilt of the defendant on the charges in the indictment. They are specifically instructed that they may NOT consider whether other people should have been charged. In other words, any implications by the defense that the jury should acquit Libby because other people should have been charged will be soundly rebuked. Victoria Toensig knows this but her conduct throughout this entire investigation and case has been despicable.
newspaperbrat: “All I could imagine would be a subpoena of her [Toensing’s] bank records or an unlikely leak inside LDF [Libby Defense Fund].”
Damn. I was hoping LDF would have to itemize and make public its expenses, or something like that.
I mean, given the wingnut welfare system, I’m almost positive that Toensing would have been paid for something like this. It really does reek of a paid job.
Hi Folks. For what it’s worth, I thought you might be interested to know that juries in federal criminal cases are routinely instructed that their job is to decide only the guilt or non-guilt of the defendant on the charges in the indictment. They are specifically told that they may NOT base their verdict on a consideration of whether other people should also have been charged. In other words, if the defense were to make the argument that Victoria Toensig made in the Washington Post, the defense attorneys would likely be rebuked by the court and Fitzgerald would be able to emphasize that instruction and the impropriety of the argument in his rebuttal argument. Toensig knows the argument is improper, but her conduct throughout this investigation has been despicable. Her argument will have no effect on the case; it is, rather, a preemptive strike designed to minimize the effect of a guilty verdict– a sign of desperation on the part of the Libby Defense Trust, I believe.
Hi Elizabeth — do you think this was an attempt to reach that one juror who might be tempted, on a long holiday weekend, to read the Washington Post? As such, do you see Judge Walton taking (out of jury earshot) action? Do you see him asking the jury if they read any papers this weekend? This seems so over-the-top.
cbl @
115
You know, reading over today’s posts this evening I found myself revisiting the same question when someone pointed out Jos. Wilson’s documented reluctance to revisit a task that he knew had been undertaken by the current ambassador to Niger. Tentatively, I think it was another manifestation of the bullying and importuning that we know Cheney and his office to have subjected the intel community to on Iraq questions.
By the time of Wilson’s dispatch, there had been perhaps three requests already through State to the embassy in Niger. Amb. Kirkpatrick had handled one or two herself, and had finally consulted with the EUCOMM head Gen. Fulford on the second—or third. So between the lines, doesn’t it seem possible that she was getting a bit tired of having the same thing show back up on her desk, where she knew she would have only the same answer to give, owing, you know, to a preference for sticking to verifiable evidence and such? I think Cheney was bugging State, and the ambassador through State, and EUCOMM, and eventually CIA, in an attempt to bludgeon someone into validating what the Shop they were running had already cooked up.
The ultimate motive I suppose was to force complicity to be shared as a way of trying to protect both the backchannel operation, whose legitimacy he had to know might be challenged, and the phony casus belli against Iraq. This kind of protection through complicity seems to have been part of, for instance, what kept Congress quiet and eager to overlook the obvious in the matter of the Iran-Contra scandal.
More importantly though, recall that even as early as September and October of 2002, unnamed intelligence analysts were being reported, for instance by Dana Priest (WaPo) and Strobel, Landay, and Walcott (McClatchy, then Knight-Ridder) as resisting the strong conclusions against Iraq that the White House was propogating, and also as complaining about pressure from the Pentagon, as was said then. (Links are around, but I’m referring for some of this to a book, Warrior-King by John C. Bonifaz, pp. 16–17.) I think the battering was meant to bring these analysts and agencies in line if possible. Remember, these are people in the Administration who think “shock and awe” causes other people to crumble.
Why would Cheney care if anyone fell in line? Well they might have though it would be in some ways it would be easier, I guess. If dissenters squawked they could be fired ad hoc, but in the meanwhile, there would still be the option of threats and perhaps a very rare carrot, knowing this crowd, to keep them in line. And as long as they had somewhere seemed to come to something like the same conclusion as the OSP chopshop, the notion of that thing as simply a policy-evaluation office could be maintained. So they thought, I suppose. (whew! maybe I could have said that more simply …)
[oops, wrong thread]
TeddySanFran @ 133
No, I don’t think that Judge Walton will take action vis a vis Toensig, but he might make inquiry of the jury as to whether they read anything about the case over the weekend. It is over-the-top, but the intended audience is not the jury. The intended audience is the public; Libby’s allies are trying to make the public think the case is unimportant and that Libby has been treated unfairly.
Like TeddySF, I’m wondering if, say, copies of the WaPo mysteriously ended up on a dozen people’s doorsteps (or hotel breakfast trays, if they’re sequestered). I wouldn’t put it past ratfuckers to do a bit of last-minute ratfucking.
TeddySanFran @
24
Actually there are far more opportunities to convict. There remain four counts of perjury and obstruction…with one count dropped.
And within each of those counts there are several lies…any one of which would be enough to support conviction. In the jury instructions the Defense argued, and Fitz supported, the position that the jurors must be unanimous on any ONE of the lies to support conviction on the count. Libby’s team were worried that the original juror instruction might have allowed 3 jurors who thought Libby told one lie, while 4 thought he lied on another and 5 on a third and that they might construe this was enough for conviction.
Just to illustrate just how fair Fitz is (and utterly contrary to Toensings and the wingbat right’s characterization of him) Fitz agreed that there must be unanimity on a specific element within the charge.
BobbyG @
47
I don’t think that he can get the boot….he was given plenary powers to complete his investigation and prosecute anyone involved in the original leak of classified information, efforts to obstruct his investigation, or any related crimes discovered in the course of his investigation.
Plenary powers means that Fitz, as long as he isn’t convicted of a crime related to misuse of authority (which would be an irony given what he has already discovered) can’t be touched. The GAO has even said that he can operate with an independent budget.
So neither Gonzalez nor Bush can cut off his purse.
Bush would have to directly fire him…and that would trigger a Constitutional crisis. Imagine that the guy who refused to fire a half dozen leakers in his administration and still hasn’t cut off the Security Clearances of most of those who passed information to those not “need-to-know”…firing the very individual who attempted to punish someone who was involved in the leak.
BTW Why isn’t Princess Vicky howling about Bush not firing Rove if she is so upset at Fitz’s not prosecuting other leakers? Why isn’t she calling for the resignations of those that knew about the leaks and didn’t tell him…so he could punish. Wasn’t that what Bush said he would do?
But instead he was getting the NIE declassified so it could be “leaked”
and not attributed to his role in “going after” Wilson.
It gets interesting indeed if Libby is convicted. ‘Dumbya’ is not going to pardon him. That’s not the Bush Crime Fambly way. They throw you under the bus.
After all this case has nothing to do with him will be the Preznint’s approach. ‘Justice has been done now let’s move along will be the sweet, sweet chorus sung by Malkin’s Monkeys. Look, Look over there Iran gots the bomb!’
I doubt the public will buy any of that. The thinking public that is.
Libby will be pressured financially and through his family to stay quiet. If he does…game over. Until the private suit reaches the courts…heh…heh…heh…dat’s gonna be big muthafukin’ fun. Ol’ Russert will have another day in court and I don’t think the Wilson’s lawyer will be as polite as Fitz.
If The Scooter turns on the Shooter…well, that could be some big fun indeed.
Ah…interesting times indeed.
It ain’t over ’til it’s over.
And it ain’t over yet.
John Casper @
52
I always thought that “jury nullification” occurred when a jury found the underlying law itself nonsensical, out-of-date, or corrupt.
Seems to me that the jury would be saying that lying to the FBI and Grand Jury’s is acceptable if the “act against the law” in this cas if they use nullification.
That’s different from saying that the evidence shows that there’s doubt about Libby’s actual lies, or his intentionality. Those would be reasonable grounds for an acquittal.
But they can’t use Toensing’s logic simply because it’s irrelevant whether Plame’s job at the CIA was covert (as long as it was classified)…and they don’t know if there will be future prosecutions once this trial is over BASED upon this trial. Someone must be first before the court, and if it was Rove, Armitage or Cheney she’d be likely screaming “why not Libby?” in her op-ed.
BobbyG @
56
“Railroading” would be making an innocent person take responsibility for the criminal acts of another…kind of what Libby tried to do with Russert!
rwcole @
59
So perjury and obstruction of justice (lying to Grand Juries) shouldn’t be crimes?
Elizabeth de la Vega @
132
Given that Toensigheil is advocating that the jurors undertake acts that she KNOWS are outside those of professional ethics is there any chance that she could be stripped of her license to practice law!
Elizabeth de la Vega @ 136
I’m wondering if this was actually an effort to precipitate a mistrial? If more than one or two jurors saw the piece, or even the outrageous illustration, then it could trigger a mistrial.
Didn’t Walton slap down Joe and Valerie’s lawyer for making ONE COMMENT about this case on TV? Isn’t Victoria also an officer of the court? I can’t imagine Walton’s going to be amused by this.
Ah, yes. Here’s Walton’s comment against Wilson’s lawyer:
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/ms….._Order.pdf
Fred Thompson’s also made a similar attempt at jury tampering this week — he tried the old “let’s pretend that Scooter’s on trial for leaking, not perjury” stunt.
You should get hold of John Dean. He’s had Thompson’s number from way back, and has a lot to say about Thompson’s integrity — or complete lack thereof.
JGabriel @
131
Given that Toensig is an “interesed party” and, in fact, involved in fdunding Libby’s defense her actions may constitute an egregious act of contempt of court.
Clearly the judge will have to act to assess if any jurors were tainted by her act, And he may declare her in Contempt if he finds that her act threatens the fairness of the trial.
He could fine her, send her to jail, or recommend that she be stripped of her license to parctice.
Toensig is not just an “average citizen” when she, a practicing member of the District of Colombia Bar, and a member of the Libby Team…acts in such an unethical manner. The only thing like it was the manner in which Gotti’s lawyers attempted to influence the jury pool, and even THAT had far lower likelihood to work.
Gangster tactics!
BobbyG @
71
Vickie T and her ilk are not so much “willfully ignorant and intellectually lazy” as they are simply determined to do anything to hold onto what they believe is their entitlement. they are ruthless liars that never give in.
that is their code: never give in. there is no morality with these people. theirs is pure, ruthless greed. we should not offer them the excuse of being even willfully ignorant. they know perfectly well the ramifications of what they are saying. it is deliberate and calculated to the last letter.
I think there is a lot at stake here in terms of this conviction. It could really bring down the whole house of cards, from Cheney down. If Libby gets off, they will try to say it was all a witch hunt and they are victims. The MSM has a lot at stake, too. The trial has been low key up to this point, but if Libby is convicted, the cat is out of the bag.
BobbyG @
42
Awesome. You are a true patriot. I can just picture you in an American-flag Patriot Suit.
Can someone tell me where the Libby trial is ? What building? Any clues as to getting into thrial on Tuesday? How early should I get there?
I think Jury Nullification is our “right” and it’s one that Judges and Prosecutors hate when Juries know about it or use it. I don’t know how Defense Attorneys feel about it. They probably don’t like the railroading aspect but they may like the way it allows the jury to toss out crap laws and crap prosecutions.
I am not saying it is always a good thing since as Grisham and others point out, it can be used as the final step to legally lynch someone.
I am not saying that Libby is innocent in any way, or in any way eligible for jury nullification. Just the opposite in fact.
I am only saying I wish every American knew about jury nullification and I would be willing to trade someone that should swing for their crimes if the positive benefit was to teach America about this.
(CHS notes: Look, I get that jury nullification is something you support. I also get that you are using the lynching as a rhetorical device to raise people’s eyebrows and bring attention to your comment, and bring the point home about what you are saying. But, honestly, talking about violence and hanging in any way is just not something we encourage here. Period. But because you are newer to the blog, I wanted to be sure you understood that we are very careful with comments that have anything whatsoever to do with violence, even in a rhetorical sense, because we’d rather debate the ideas than the way people may choose to express them with violent language. If you have questions about this, feel free to e-mail me at the contact information above. We have this same requirement for all of our comments, and I didn’t want to let this one pass without you knowing that you need to be more careful in your choice of emphasizing words. Thanks. And now back to my coffee…)
Morning Christy.
Here’s two questions I bet Vicky won’t answer in her on line chat:
1. Have you or your husband contributed to the Scooter Libby Legal Defense Fund
2. Did you discuss your OPED in advance with any member of Libby’s legal team…or send them a copy in advance of publication?
Can only wonder if Mr. Woodward was involved with VT’s saga.
Balrog @ 114
BALROG – I figured you were being either incredibly snarky or incredibly stupid. I figured it was most likely the former!
Muzzy @
110
This one bothers me a bit. Wasn’t Armitage’s role known by the DoJ investigators before Fitz even got the case?
rwcole @ 66
I’ll hand you a bit of paper… here, how about a clump of WaPo…
rwcole @
66
If I’m understanderating correctly, you will also be manufacturing a small scale replica of the Boy who would be King, that may or may not float!
Hush, hush and on the q.t… Life imitates art:
from http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/on-the-qt.html :
“In the 1997 film L.A. Confidential (screenplay Brian Helgeland, based on a novel by James Ellroy), Sid Hudgens (played by Danny DeVito) signs off his newspaper columns with “off the record, on the QT and very hush-hush.”. This was taken up as the film’s tagline in advertising posters.”
chaboard @ 159
Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe Fitz knew from the beginning that Armitage had been one of two sources for Novak’s July 2003 column that outed Plame, but he didn’t know until Bob Woodward came forward in November 2005 that Armitage had also told Woodward Mrs. Wilson’s identity. Thus what Fitz thought at the time (October 2005) was that Libby had been the first official to tell someone in June 2003 that Wilson’s wife worked at the CIA.