
The other night TRex paid me a very nice compliment and I'd like to return the favor by pointing out that this very funny, but important, post of his should be read by one and all. The DC punditocrisy has not just been craven and opportunistic, although they have been that. And they haven't just been servants of power, although they have been that too. Apparently, they have actually been frozen for the last two decades and the blogosphere has caused them to melt. Via TRex, here's Joe Klein:
As a newcomer to this blogging business, I've been interested in the Edwards dust-up. As readers know, I've been critical of the tone of the left-wing blogosphere in the past. But I think that Yglesias raises an important point here and anyone reading the comments section of any Swampland post knows that troglyditic right-wing cavedwellers fester there, in a vomitously vile manner, too. And I'd add this: Radio. I was driving into Springfield, Ill last night for the Obama festivities and caught the ever-vile Sean Hannity "interviewing" the even-more-vile Dick Morris about Hillary. Just disgraceful…and they were mild compared to the crap I've heard from Rush and others over the years.
It's obvious that the current level of vitriol on the left is a reaction to nearly twenty years of sewage emanating from Rush et al. …The intemperance on the left has three other sources (1) justifiable fury over the Bush adminstration (2) justifiable fury over the way the media treated Clinton and, to a certain extent, Bush and (3) ideologues of any sort tend to be obnoxious.
Now I recognize that Klein goes on to make a number of predictable lukewarm water points about playing nice-nice. But, nonetheless, this is a breakthrough. Indeed, it is a sign of an important sea change in the punditocrisy's worldview. For years they have been living in a Republican establishment bubble headed by society mavens pretending to be journalists — people like Cokie Roberts and David Broder. These are people who spent the decade of the 90's aiding and abetting a GOP character smear of epic proportions, either because they felt the need to pretend that they were living in Bedford Falls instead of the ruthless capitol of the most powerful nation on earth — or because they are foolish and shallow people who enjoyed the sophomoric tenor of the rightwing machine. Either way, they were (and are) a symptom of a very sick political culture.
For years the allegedly liberal pundits willfully ignored the horrific eliminationist rhetoric of the right and instead focused their attention on tabloid scandalmongering and outdated liberal stereotypes. They pretended that people like Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter were, at worst, rodeo clowns whose angry violent swill was some sort of a joke. They shrugged their shoulders when Coulter wrote a bestselling book called "Treason" that opened with this passage:
Liberals have a preternatural gift for striking a position on the side of treason. You could be talking about Scrabble and they would instantly leap to the anti-American position. Everyone says liberals love America, too. No they don't. Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence. The Left’s obsession with the crimes of the West and their Rousseauian respect for Third World savages all flow from this subversive goal. If anyone has the gaucherie to point out the left's nearly unblemished record of rooting against America, liberals turn around and scream "McCarthyism!"
They looked away when Rush Limbaugh, feted by both the president and the vice president and everyone in between as a highly valuable member of the Republican coalition said things like this:
I mean, if there is a party that's soulless, it's the Democratic Party. If there are people by definition who are soulless, it is liberals — by definition. You know, souls come from God. You know? No. No. You can't go there.
When Limbaugh made his famous inappropriate and bizarre sexual statements about Abu Ghraib, the flagship magazine of the American right came to his rescue with this essay by FDL fave Kate O'Beirne:
Rush's angry, frustrated critics discount how hard it is to make an outrageous charge against him stick. But, we listeners have spent years with him, we know him, and trust him. Rush is one of those rare acquaintances who can be defended against an assault challenging his character without ever knowing the "facts." We trust his good judgment, his unerring decency, and his fierce loyalty to the country he loves and to the courageous young Americans who defend her. For millions of us, David Brock is firing blanks against a bulletproof target.
The allegedly liberal press and the allegedly liberal pundits were silent. We could only assume they agreed. In fact, as time went on, they became angry with the newly minted liberal blogosphere because we were aghast, as we had been for years, that this was considered acceptable. From Limbaugh to the Gang of 500 to Drudge to Joe Klein to Richard Cohen, it seemed that everyone agreed that liberals and Democrats were fair game for the worst sort of fascistic language imaginable. Liberal bloggers who objected were served up as proof of the right wing's smears that the left was "unhinged."
As far back as 2000, Bob Somerby and the late Mediawhores Online pioneered this media critique, which was admittedly often harder on the so-called liberals than on the others. It had to be — these people were allegedly speaking for us and they would go on television and parrot rightwing cant at every turn. They railed about the "angry left" and they cried to their friends in the rightwing media when we insulted them. We wrote and wrote and wrote about it, documenting the atrocities and making the case.
But nothing changed until these liberal pundits and journalists started blogging.
This piece by Rick Perlstein spells out what happened to Klein's colleague Jay Carney when he thoughtlessly repeated rightwing spin disguised as history on the TIME blog:
Chalk up 7:22 a.m. EST on Tuesday, January 23, 2007, as the moment a milestone was passed. On Time's new blog, Swampland, D.C. Bureau Chief Jay Carney posted a pre-assessment of the State of the Union address comparing President Bush's political position to Bill Clinton's in January of 1995. Like Bush, "President Clinton was in free fall. … His approval ratings were mired in the 30's, and seemed unlikely to rise." Moments later, a writer identifying himself as "TomT" pointed out an error in Carney's "nut graf" that would have earned a failing grade for a first-year journalism major: "Clinton's approval rating in January [of 1995] was 47 percent. It was not mired in the 30s." At 9:12, the blogger Atrios, also known as Duncan Black, alerted his readers to the gaffe, and they descended on the Time blog like locusts–and, to mix the Biblical metaphor, served Jay Carney's head up on a charger. [...]At which Carney snapped back so churlishly ("the left is as full of unthinking Ditto-heads as Limbaugh-land") that, for a moment, it was hard even to remember–why was it, again, that we were supposed to defer to the authority of newsweeklies (and the mainstream press) in the first place? Carney was rude and wrong. The barbaric yawpers of the netroots were rude and right.
Joe Klein has suffered many such incidents since he started blogging, as have other journalists who entered the fray and subjected themselves to the wild and wooly world of the blog comment section. And he didn't like it one bit. But as other journalists who are entering the online writing world are finding, the feedback from readers is a bracing splash of reality that makes them take a new look at the world they've been writing about for decades. Joe Klein is seeing the current state of politics through new eyes. And for the first time he's understanding that we are angry for a reason.
I don't expect him to give up his vaunted "centrism" which is his very special view of himself as being above it all. But if blogging means they can see even a tiny little speck of light about the right's decades long jihad against their fellow Americans, then I say let them all blog. (Hell, make them all blog.)
I think I speak for all of us out there who've been mixing it up with readers and trolls and critics for years, that while it may be somewhat harsh and disconcerting at first, it keeps you honest. And that is something the political punditocrisy has needed for a very long time.
Welcome to the blogosphere, Joe.
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DIGBY!
Where does Hillary stand today, “exactly”, on Iran?
Happy Single Awareness Day!!
DIGBY!
cathy @ 3
You got that right! I’m working late to celebrate my singleness. My little one is with dad, so I get to work later.
Hope Joe Klein isn’t just buying some karma to expend it a year later by agreeing with Republicans that America is still not ready for a democratic president.
I’m sorry, that is pretty cynical thing – Joe Klein is read by many people, and this message is an important one to be amplified: People can criticize the ’shrills of the blogosphere’ but they should not fail to recognize that there are those on the right who are much louder and hateful. Those who say the left should be more respectful and not constantly be on the offensive seem to be ignoring the knife-sharpening from those on the right that grows louder every day.
Senator Clinton has been asked several times in the last two days if she was prepared to say her vote in favor of attacking Iraq was a mistake, and the Senator has equivocted each time. Usually blaming Bush. Geesh.
I also saw Joe on Matthews’ show, I think it was, and he was positively left wing talking about the war and what the WH should have been doing in Iraq to prevent civil war instead of worrying about Joe Wilson.
I take idiot pundits sudddenly veering left with a grain of salt. Maybe this guy is just willing to say anything to get an audience–I can never forgive him for writing that anonymous book. It vindicated the right wing clinton sex wackoos.
I have noticed that no one I ever talk to in real life is very excited about Hilary Clinton. The only advantage I see of her in the white house, is that we’ll also get Bill Clinton back there, too.
Oklahoma kiddo @
2
Ask AIPAC.
Great post, Digby (and great post last night, too).
I find it amusing that many of the established NY and DC journalists in the 40-65 year old bracket are so snobby about bloggers. They call themselves the credentialed, seasoned and trained journalists, and bloggers are simply partisan whiners with an axe to grind. Funny, from here, it seems like their definition of bloggers can be applied to a lot of “professional journalists”.
I also find it amusing because most journalists above age 40 don’t have “journalism degrees”. Many of the people in their 50s, 60s and up got degrees in other areas and ended up writing & reporting. So, they may have a similar background to bloggers.
The thing that they see separates them from us is that they have research teams and editorial boards that should lend to less bias and more accuracy in reporting. However, we have certainly seen from the Bush years and this trial in particular that the major news organizations are not as unbiased nor as fair in their reporting as many would be led to believe.
I did a little bit of journalism in my past, and I had a mentor from the WSJ who really pushed me to pursue it as a career. My problem was that I was drawn to political reporting, and I was very concerned that I’d have a hard time truly being fair and unbiased. I worried that it would be difficult to separate my point of view from the reporting (and that I’d perhaps over-compensate for my political leanings). This is one strong reason I decided not to go that route. Who knew that having a political bias doesn’t mean a damn thing for professional journalists – in fact, it can come in handy to get leaks and preferential treatment!
Sigh.
It’s true that a lot of bloggers do not have a boss harping over their shoulder with other points of view and facts. However, we have commenters, we have plenty of critics, and we also have plenty of blogger colleagues who help us hone our reporting and can be critical to our opinions stated. That means the best bloggers are often like newspaper columnists or news commentators, and we keep getting better.
We are evolving quickly, and they have to struggle to play catch-up. They realize that their reporting will be more analyzed, criticized, and discussed. I don’t envy the spotlight they must fear is shining brightly in their eyes, but perhaps they will also become better for it.
A few days ago Klein included this doozie in one of his blog posts:
“McCain has been entirely consistent about the Iraq War.”
Stuff like that makes me wonder if MSM pundits like Klein are indeed capable of “getting it.” An internet novice who has access to nothing more sophisticated than Google could refute Klein’s assertion in 2 minutes flat.
How does one rise to a prominent and well-paid position in journalism while being incapable of getting the most basic facts straight?
Oy.
‘Oh! we’re sittin’ on a barrel of money
We both think raggeds are funny
and we’ll string folks along
Singing a song
Side by side‘
What a pair of Liberal zanies they make.
;>)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 2
Someone from the peace and justice coalition asked her about that in New Hampshire, and her answer mirrored that of the Israeli government’s–that Iran represented an “existential threat” to the security of the US.
Which, of course, is not true–unless we were to provoke them in some way.
Sounds as if Hillary wants to be tough, in ways acceptable to the right wing….
I think Klein’s column isn’t so much a watershed moment as it is him realizing which way the political winds are blowing, and how if Bush and the repubs keep on as they have been even these past few weeks they’re going to become even more ostracized, and he’s just positioning himself for the future Democratic majorities in government.
nothing brave or earthshattering about it, just a craven move by an opportunist looking to keep himself in his position.
HOORAY FOR DIGBY!!
Aw. You like me! You really like me!
*weeps copiously*
Its only February 14th and I think I may have read one of the Koufaxian posts of the year. Digby rules. That. Is. All.
Blogging and citizen journalism in all forms, be it podcasting, photo blogging, video blogging or whatever comes next is merely open source reporting like the so-called professionals do. We have research staffs right here in the comments section. We have editors there too. Blogging is just a more efficient method of journalism. I’m glad Joke Line has figured this out finally.
“Centrism, moderation, balance”. These are code words. And I know precisely what these words mean in the political context.
Do you suppose Joe read some of the stuff that was dumped on Pandagon and Shakespeare’s Sister? Now if he’ll just keep it up, he’ll realize that that kind of horrific and threatening vitriol is more typical than not for the right.
I have just recently started to understand that the left/right paradigm is false.
montag @ 14
I cannot disagree with what you’re telling us.
cathy @ 3
LOL – I’m glad there’s a catchy name for it. Does Hallmark have SAD cards I can send to my other single friends?
You miss the point. They (Klein or any of them) don’t care if they “get it.” You (and many others) think the MSM plays by some ponytopian rules of journalism that may have (and should still) exist.
They, and their employers, are out to provide “entertainment” and make money (in its most base form it just matters that they occupy airtime or page space – and they therefor play by very different, non-ponytopian – rules that have nothing to with journalism, as it may once have been (or you think it should be) practiced. Expecting “journalism” out of the MSM is no different than expecting “reality” out of Reality TV – your only going to be disappointed.
(Sure, there are exceptions, but if you ask me, they prove the rule. And, even then, you have to ask yourself why Olbermann, for example, is forced (assuming he is) to put on celebrity “news”).
My understanding is that progressives, center to left types, left wingers and perhaps radicals will have much power in the primaries. Not so much in the ‘general’.
1,436 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
oklahoma kiddo,mattes and the Firepup Patriots:
oklahoma kiddo: “Where does Hillary stand ‘exactly’ on Iran?”
Mattes: “Ask AIPAC”
This is a great exchange guys…indeed, Mrs. Clinton gave a speech today warning the White House that they could take no action against Iran for ANYthing without consent of Congress. I believe that this expresses the great fear of a majority of Israelis including Likudniks right now about a widening of the war in Iraq given the asskickin’ Israel got in Lebanon last fall. The first BIG loser in a regional war will be Israel, forcing them to use nukes if threatened by Syria/Iran…as a matter of fact, I am certain that the Israeli government has said as much to the Der Feurerchimp. (Remember the religious wingnut idea of the end of Israel and “the rapture”.)
God help me, but I think an attack of ANY kind on Iran will force immediate impeachment…”bring it on” George??!!
KEEP THE FAITH BUT PASS THE AMMUNITION WE GOT TO GET RID OF THESE NAZIS!!!
Reading Digby may very well be better than chocolate.
Hey another Republican with Republican values.
Ex-Republican Rep. charged with flashing.
maybe he can drive the Scalia daughter to her hearing on DWI.
-GSD
Excellent post. I agree we should celebrate each moment of light breaking through.
And for the first time he’s understanding that we are angry for a reason.
I hope so. But finally realizing that the rightwing behaves badly and gets away with it is not enough. Let him show that he understands how much damage they have done to the country, then focus and use that anger on them to get our country back — and if he wants to define that as the true “centrist” position, that’s fine — because it is. He still has a tough journey ahead, and we should encourage him.
yeah, but the point is that people like yourself who are honest to begin with didn’t need a couple of decades to figure out what was going on….
I mean, how long did it take you to develop “troll-dar”…. the ability to discriminate between a troll (or a moron who was simply spewing trollish idiocy without any actual clue) and a critic with a reasonable/rational point?
Unless and until jokeline entitles his next book “Confessions of a Brain Dead American”, I really can’t take the guy seriously….
thanks for the opportunity to blogwhore yet a second time on the coattails of the same post, digby (did it when trex first mentioned this subject).
skippy’s own pudentilla dissected joke line last sunday, wherein she decided that bloggers’ anger was a good thing, and was the only rational response to the shutting down of national discourse during the last 8 years.
also, we got to do a pretty neat photoshop w/her post.
.
.
Right on, Digby. I feel proud of myself and fortunate to have posted a comment, and thus haven, taken part in slamming the Carney post you mentioned. I feel ever so relieved and pleased to be able to read and to take part in blogs such as yours and FDL.
montag @ 14
OK, you see, this bit about Hillary fits right into the topic of these “so-called liberal” journalists. In this way:
I am sick to death of trying to figure out if Hillary or Joke Line are “merely” trying to appease the right wing, or if they themselves are, in their heart of hearts, right-wingers.
Does it matter?
As long as the country is lurching rightward, into the serious territory of fascism, with major encroachments on our democratic principles, and trashing the Constitution and the bill of rights in favor of eternal war for the benefit of the corporate elite, then anyone who isn’t THROWING THEMSELVES onto the spokes of the machine to reverse this course IS THE PROBLEM.
hi everyone —
I just want to make something clear. I have no illusions that the pundits, or the media generally, are going to become progressive activists any time soon. They are establishment players, and they will always identify with their tribe. And nobody in the blogpshere has been harder on Klein than I have for the last four years.
But I do think it’s important to recognize, and reward, those who are making progress and Klein (of all people) is making progress. I think it’s blogging that’s done it, but maybe it’s just that the wind is blowing in a new direction and he’s floating with it. It’s impossible to know.
But it’s good that he acknowledged that the left’s critique is valid and that it is a legitimate reaction to 20 years of rightwing hatemongering. I honestly haven’t heard even one other establishment pundit ever say that.
Klein is rolling around in the blogosphere and he’s getting the hell kicked out of him daily from all sides. But he seems to be learning someting from it and I’ve of a mind to be generous and extend the hand of friendship.
(If he keeps this up, he’s going to need it. The right will eviscerate him for such heresy.)
Very on topic
Rush, Newspeak and Fascism: An exegesis
By Dave Niewert of Orcinus
RE Olbermann, even Murrow had to do celebrity bullshit interviews in order to keep “See It Now” on the air.
These “journalists” are scared shitless because they are being made redundant by this new open source journalism. Think about it-why should we pay Pumpkinhead 5 million bucks when Marcy Wheeler, Swopa and Jane deliver better analysis for FREE?
What Joe Klein seems to miss is that blogs, particularly ones like FDL, have hundreds, perhaps thousands, of fact checkers who will leap at any factual error and be sure the record is corrected.
While it is true that most of the facts to be checked can done in milliseconds on Google, the readership of FDL has genuine experts in a wide variety of areas (for example you could easily start a large multi-national law firm or staff a major hospital with just the regular posters.)
The common thread of the posters and lurkers is an intolerance for BS, spin and the out right lies of the ReThugs and their MSM enablers. If Joe can’t deal with that he is in the wrong biz.
1,436 DAYZAND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Mrs. K8:
Happy Valentine’s Day you wonderful lady…consider this a virtual expression of Valentine love to one of the many FDL women that are models for my two collegiate daughters and my three granddaughters. (Yes, little Freya is gettin’ a dose of Emily Dickinson every night from her English teacher dad.)
KEEP THE FAITH AND DON’T LET ANY OF ‘EM INTO YER YARD!!!
Mrs. K8 @ 33
I like this. ;0)
fucking liberals!
((((digby)))))))
Thanks, Digby, for the story about Joe Klein. It may simply be that he’s put a wet finger in the air to determine which way the wind is blowing. Or, more hopefully, he’s beginning to realize that the country is in serious trouble, and honest debate might help get us out of it.
And thanks for your wonderful blog Hullabaloo, without which I would have amassed large therapist bills and even larger liquor store bills. Hullabaloo, Firedoglake, the late lamented Billmon, and Eschaton continue to confirm for me the essential decency of my fellow Americans. (There are others out there; but these are the ones I read most often.)
Digby-
I just added an image to the top of your post. I hope you don’t mind.
Once again I’m blown away by your writing.
And on the 8th day g-d gave us Digby!
I trust your jugement, Digby, and I suppose I’ll try to do as you advise regarding Klein. The guy hasn’t convinced me though that he is sincere. I suspect he might just be playing the same game he has played for several years now. He is going to have to work a lot harder to earn even a little bit of respect from me. He has earned our contempt. He owes us a lot of mea culpas.
Cokie Roberts and David Broder? Now I am thinking about becoming agitated.
someday they will present “the Digby”, the award for excellence in blog writing.
Digby @ 34- I think we’re in too deep to hope Joe Klein comes around.
punaise @ 46
That’s a great idea.
TRex @
42
TRex, you are so fucking funny!
I feel so alone and SDS’ish.
1,436 dayz and the killin’ goez on and on and..
urban pirate and the Firepup Patriots:
“And on the 8th day g-d gave us Digby.”
Yes indeed!! Digby is a God given right of the blogosphere!
KEEP THE FAITH AND DON’T LET ‘EM UP!!
NorskeFlamethrower @ 38
Norske, love!
I’m so proud to call you one of my FDL Valentines, you crusty ol’ noble warrior, you!
Mr. K8 was standing over my shoulder, reading, a moment ago (he just got home from work via the chiropractor, poor dear, his muscles are tied up in knots) — he pointed at your post and said, “See? This is just one example why I’m so glad that you are my one-and-only forever Valentine.”
Norske, you’ve just warmed my heart more than you can know. I’m humbled. Thank you.
Now I think I have to go see my Valentine husband. Maybe I can help continue the chiropractor’s efforts to relax all that work-related tension.
TRex @
42
Cool. The ‘King’. Perfect.
I talked to Elvis last night at the local 7-Eleven. Only thing is, and this worries me, we don’t have a 7-Eleven in my little town.
punaise @
46
Yup. Also, “the Billmon”. Sorry if I made anybody weep.
Oklahoma kiddo @
50
While I wasn’t in SDS (for complicated and nuanced philosophical reasons I have long since forgotten) I was shoulder to shoulder with them in the anti-war protests at Berkeley in late 60’s. Shorter version – you are not alone.
Digby – I’ll preface this by saying that I don’t intend the following comment or question to be snarky. But who do you think that the Kleins of the world (which is basically the whole CM) influence? If the CM is still so “powerful” in affecting public attitudes/opinions, and we (writ large) are right about the CM simply being a mouthpiece/apologist for Chimpco, then how to explain the ‘06 election results? Wasn’t the CM still putting out the same BS as when they weren’t being “responsible journalists” in the run up to war?
I’m not in anyway implying that what you and other bloggers do isn’t important, or that you and other bloggers should stop doing it. But they are valid questions. Perhaps you credit the left blogosphere? I might credit new “news” sources such as the Internet in general – I get most of my “news” from my Yahoo home page (which would be AP and Reuters with the occassional AFP).
Shorter me: If Joe Klein (or Timmeh or any pundit or Bob Woodward or any CM reporter) falls in DC, does anyone outside the Beltway hear it?
seriously…..
IMHO, insight/wisdom/knowledge of politics etc is nearly irrelevant to a successful blog… its all about the writing. And its Digby’s prose stylings that make her such an essential read..
Looking at the Bush clip on Olbermann re: Iran. The prez is off his rocker.
petedownunder @ 37
FDL is Truth Porn!
petedownunder @ 56
;0)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 59
By this time, anything he says is just more corroborating evidence of that longstanding assessment. :)
On KO: Bush got all pissy, and then turned into Beavis when asked about firing or pardoning WH staff in the Plame case.
lmao! Oliver North calls Lieberman and McCain liars on KO.
GSD @
28
…in a police escort with *flashing* red lights.
Eureka Springs, AR @ 64
Not near a teevee. Why is Oliver North on KO, and why does he of all people think Liebertoad and Crooked Talk are liars?
darkblack @
13
I love it!
The segment is comming up soon. All I can say is, birds of a feather…maybe we should change that to snakes of a belly.
If Libby has such an awful memory, then why was he employed in the WH. Jeebus.
You have to understand, even though people like us have been reading blogs for years, Joe Klein and his cohorts have ignored, belittled, railed against and held their breath before deigning to actually READ them for once until recently. They don’t understand what all the buzz is about and now they want in on it.
This is also an issue in the wider society we live in. Most of my family members are over 40. I am the baby of the family at 35 and am the only one reading blogs out of 5 children. My nieces and nephews on the other hand are avid blog readers who get really excited at family gatherings when they find out I read the same blogs they do.
It’s a generational gap thing for some people, not very well evidenced around FDL by the way. I think the median age of an FDL reader probably skews higher than other blogs from the anecdotal evidence I’ve observed. I do think it plays a minor role in Joke Line’s and his generation of pundits’ reticence towards thuh blawgz.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 69
You’re kidding right? A man with no moral compass, fat stacked rolodex of journalists and a bad memory with a penchant for absolute secrecy? That’s the profile of an ideal WH aide for this crew.
57, me.
Fini:
“It’s a generational gap thing for some people, not very well evidenced around FDL by the way.”
‘Fraid you’re right. I work with a number of 20-somethings, who often seem surprised when they ask what I’m looking at online, and I tell them I’m reading blogs. I’m 57, btw.
But then, I’ve always wanted to KNOW everything…the minute we got internet service in mid-90’s I was on it day and night…finding others interested in the obscure things that I was made me a confirmed addict.(these days more politics, less literature)
jeffreyw @ 72
By the way, please do not consider my remark a criticism, I think it means we have a more sophisticated readership than Atrios’ or MyDD or other places.
FiniFiniTOOBZ! @ 70
My octagenarian father reads FDL and other progressive blogs. Hi Dad!
Just dropping in to thank Digby for a wonderful post. Not only should “pundits” be forced to blog, they should be forced to have un-moderated comments, and then be forced to READ those comments. When that happens maybe they’ll begin to understand where the real, honest-to-God craziness is. It ain’t with us dirty, stinky, messy and frustrated hippies. /rant.
FiniFiniTOOBZ! @ 74
Not at all, sir. I’ve earned every year of it.
“By the way, please do not consider my remark a criticism, I think it means we have a more sophisticated readership than Atrios’ or MyDD or other places. “
Why, thank you!
Someone has respect for his elders!
; )
tejanarusa @ 78
My parents raised me right – I have to shake my head at the antics of some of my so called peers. And I often find myself sounding like a curmudgeon even though I have not attained the required age of 40 or older to qualify as an official curmudgeon. Mom always said I have an old soul.
OT? Have you seen this Reuters story quoting Flynt Leverett saying that Succubusoleeza lied to Congress last week when she said she did not see a report about Iranian overtures when she headed NSA.
Will Congress demand an explanation from Rice? When will people stop pussy-footing around and call a lie a lie?
jeffreyw @ 77
Risking a zig. I agree (at 58). On a thread a while back there seemed to be quite a heard of us who were active in the 60’s. On the other hand the 65 million year old therapod is under 40 in human years, and Jane, Christy, EW and Swopa look way younger than us fossils.
We perhaps need to remember, as I believe Digby has pointed out more than once, that not just the Joe Kleins and Rush Limbaughs, but virtually ALL the American press has stood by the meme that Jimmy Carter has “stepped over the line” by accusing the Israeli government (and by implication the Israeli people) of apertheid. Even NPR has subjected the greatest living American President to disdainful treatment in radio interviews, and Carter hasn’t yet been featured on PBS TV re his book. Here are just two reminders from today’s Ha’aretz:
An Israeli Arab couple petitioned the High Court of Justice this week, asking it to issue a temporary injunction that would allow them to live in the predominately Jewish town of Rakefet.
The couple, residents of Sakhnin, said they were denied residency in the town because they are Arab, but say that local authorities in Rakefet and officials at the Israel Lands Authority found an alternative way to keep them from moving into the town- by stating that according to a “suitability test,” the couple are “not fit to live in the town.”
The couple is being represented by Adalah, a non-profit organization which fights discrimination against Israeli Arabs. According to the organization, the couple was refused permission to settle in the town because they are Arab.
and this:
Security forces destroyed seven illegally constructed Palestinian houses and 13 other structures Wednesday on the southern slope of Mount Hebron in the West Bank.
The demolitions took place in the villages of Manzal, Umm al-Khir and Gawawis.
Abdullah Harizat, a resident of Manzal, said that police forces, Border Police and Israel Defense Forces troops arrived in the village Wednesday morning, accompanied by the Engineering Corps.
Harizat said the forces demolished a house belonging to a family with eight children. “During the demolition, the wall of a house of another family was also destroyed,” he said.
The area is located in Area C, subject to Civil Administration control.
Harizat said the structures were built illegally because the residents of the village are not allowed to receive construction permits. “We ask, but they never give them to us. They say, ‘this is state land.’”
Harizat said the forces that destroyed the houses did not attend to the needs of residents left without a roof during the night. Relatives brought the family a tent in which to sleep, he said.
One woman was admitted for medical treatment after losing consciousness during the demolitions.
Israeli leftist activists also arrived at the scene, one of whom was detained.
The Committee Against House Demolitions said a petition filed by a residents of one of the villages was rejected.
These demolitions are part of a plan to evict about 40,000 Bedouins, Israeli citizens, from their homes and to forcibly move them to segregated communities with no jobs, schools, banks, buses or other services.
Is North having an epiphany? This is approaching bizarre.
on the t-shirt thing – look, this is bad for the prosecution. Remember:
1. Prosecutor cannot appeal; only defense can.
2. One juror is already on the outs with the jury – and verdict must be unanimous.
I would expect that J. Walton and Fitz are taking this very seriously; i cannot over-emphasize that this kind of thing simply DOES NOT HAPPEN. EVER.
At this point, you would have to ask judge to voir dire jurors, in camera, separately; you would have to ask whose idea was it; who paid for shirts; what was discussed; and then you would have to move on to find out if they have been discussing evidence among themselves. That is the real issue; the shirts are a signal.
Fitz knows he gets one shot; defense gets the appeal. Right now, i would expect in camera review, and possibly motion for mistrial.
Irving’s defense = erectile dysfunction
No Dick? what a freaking letdown.
Hey, Scooter Libby defense fund, I want my $0.01 back! And no, you may not use it for an appeal.
Wankers.
Ed*ard Teller @ 82
This is outrageous!
Granting the Palestinians a home land is the moral thing to do.
Ed*ard Teller- Carter was used as an example by the Zionist controlled to media to intimidate others.
melandell @ 84
I don’t do criminal law, but have tried a lot of jury trials. I would not get too excited by this. On several occasions some or all of the jurors have done something special, for example santa hats on the last session before a week break for Xmas in a 3 month trial. My experience is that it means nothing, and that any attempt to read too much into jury actions or questions is pure reading tea leaves and about as significant.
If, after the trial, there appears to have been misconduct that’s another matter, but it’s really quite rare (most often a juror doing independent research). I’d like to hear from the criminal bar on this. BTW in civil cases in CA we need 3/4 (usually 9 of 12) for a verdict so one holdout can’t control the outcome, thus criminal may well be different. disclaimer
Twisted Martini @
36
Which is why I’m a soft touch when they say they need cash. I sat down last night and made my “subscription list”, if you will. I don’t have a lot to work with, but it has become a quarterly budgeted expense. Access to informed commentary and discussion and truth is essential to us as a nation.
melandell @ 84
Just wondering – are you a lawyer? I’m not, but what you have written is my gut reaction. There is so much at stake here and WTF were the jurors thinking? And I agree, there just might be hard feelings between all the jurors who thought this was an appropriate thing to do, and the one juror who did not.
It is quite possible the lone non-t-shirt wearer felt uncomfortable sending a message of unity on such a trivial level during such an important trial. Ditto the feeling this may signify nothing, from a multi time ex jury member.
No end of day wrap up? I’m become addicted to the nightly video clip from our intrepid FDL team
HI! – to punaise’s father.
Ed*ard Teller @ 5:38/#82 has some valuable things to say. Just in case it had missed notice in the MSM the “Jewish Taliban” is alive and well in Israel:
http://www.npr.org/templates/s…..Id=7361060
I heard this story on NPR at work and I almost fell off my chair. Well, we’ve got our religious nuts, and they have theirs. But ours don’t control public transit…
I’d have preferred no sign of anything “odd” from the jury. The best spin I saw – in a brief scan of the comments in the red T-shirt thread – was that this could be seen as a sign of jury bonding. That doesn’t account for the hold-out, however. I guess I’m in the Nervous Nelly camp on this one.
I noticed Shuster used a modified GSD comment in his analysis of the trial.
He said “look at all the banks my client didn’t rob”, I said “look at all the boys Jeff Dahmer didn’t eat.”
-GSD
FiniFiniTOOBZ! @ 74
Is there a blog that seriously attempts to score other blogs’ IQs? Thinking about FFToobz’z comment got me to LOL a bit, but I’m not big on the IQ thing. A lot of high IQers also have high DQs.
Ed*ard Teller @ 93
funny thing is, I don’t know if he comments here, and if so, what his screen name is.
Marion in Savannah,
I heard that report too. She says she doesn’t want to be the Rosa Parks of Jerusalem, but she sounded to me like somebody I WOULD NOT want to piss off.
Ed*ard Teller @ 100
Well, like it or not, I think Jerusalem has their very own Rosa Parks. Good on her, and God speed to her!
Yes, i’m a trial lawyer; yes, this is reading tea leaves (and #89 – criminal verdict must be unanimous); But, the real issue here is what is J. Walton/Fitz going to do. The defense can simply do nothing, get affidavits later (if they lose) and use as grounds for appeal and re-trial. Prosecution doesnt have that option.
Besides, i have never heard of it – not this, not santa hats, and certainly not in a high stakes, high publicity trial like this one.
I just think that the Prosecutor and Judge are duty bound to do some kind of inquiry.
anyway, my 2cents from the peanut gallery.
Money trumps peace.
-G.W. Monkey Nuts
Papa Pun in the lake?
-GSD
re-posting Christy’s take:
Christy Hardin Smith @
17
Hasn’t Flynt Leverett done a guest post here?
GSD @ 102
Mayornaise or how do you say punsenior in French?
Ed*ard Teller @ 98
My statement there was merely layman’s terms observation based on the behavior and “tone” set in the comments sections of other blogs. The comments here are usually more thoughtful whether they are a serious point or a humorous witticism.
I think this can be attributed to the more mature audience that gathers here and is purely anecdotal. I wouldn’t care for anyone to actually attempt to measure a comment section IQ. My favorite snark blog Sadly, No would look really stupid if there was such a thing.
punaise – I am in the nervous nelly camp as well and I might have to blame this on
Bill ClintonGrisham. CHS and newspaperbrat did ease my nerves a bit.Eureka Springs, AR @ 108
thanks – I’ll go back to check those comments.
Eureka Springs, AR @ 109
ESAR, please quit watching Law & Order and its derivative shows during the Libby trial. It will make things easier on you ;)
on the jurors t-shirt thingy.
i don’t want to trivialize the issue on this but i think this is really overrated.
the jurors have been told to avoid the media and any form of dialogue regarding this trial, right? as far as i’ve been able to tell from the limited amount of live blogging i’ve read,only one juror has been excused. doesn’t mean they’re forming groups and planning immunity.
i think these people are well intentioned folks who had no idea how immense this trial was until they were “drafted” and this was their way of saying “hi mom”
if one person dissents and refuses to wear the shirt i say good on ya.
red t-shirts with hearts on them??
would you wear one?????
moi @ 111
stay tuned for “Survivor: Prettyman”
Fini – Haven’t watched l&o in nearly ten years. Perhaps I need a valentine to remind me just how infectious a giddy love can make one act (but eleven out of twelve jurors?). Nah, the t-shirts were just an awful idea. Since I am over forty, according to you I qualify as an official curmudgeon so, ymmv…)
FiniFiniTOOBZ! @ 70
Get offa my lawn, whippersnapper
;>)
FiniFiniTOOBZ! @ 68
Right on. I was skeptical of blogs as news sources just a few years ago. I was convinced by the media that they were partisan hackery, a bunch of 15-20 year olds just making crap up for attention. I was very surprised to find that while there is a lot of junk out there, we are blessed with many accurate, fact-filled, well articulated and brilliantly written blogs like like FDL, Hullabaloo, Think Progress, and Daily Kos (the four I visit every day).
I imagine that the people who are full-time journalists may actually be slower to get on board with what us tech-savvy political nerds in our 30s-70s know – blogs like this are vital to information sharing, growing a deeper knowledge of the issues, considering other points of view, and honing our discussion and writing skills.
I see the “professional journalists” phases of understanding and accepting blogs as this:
First, they ignore them, thinking it’s just a fad.
Second, they acknowledge them, but believe they are significantly biased and inaccurate.
Third, they trivialize their importance on the news business.
Fourth, they realize the impact of good blogs on their business – both from the financial side (competition for subscribers/listeners) and from the fact-check side. They realize that good blogs will scrutinize the accuracy of their own work, and may even be perceived as competition in landing accurate stories and/or providing insightful commentary on issues.
Finally, they choose either to join in (and get a little burned in the process, but become better journalists as a result), OR they go back to the first step and bury their heads in the sand.
David Derbes @
41
It’s wonderful seeing the incomparable Digby here at Firedog Lake. Dare I dream that one day Billmon might resurface, and maybe even here?
When is NPR going to jetison Kooky Roberts. That woman makes my skin crawl. I don’t think I’ve heard more than two or three passably intelligent commentaries from her over the last twenty years.
punaise @ 75
I’ve got my dad reading now, he was interested in the Plame trial. I’m ummmmm….. forty upp(ity)erish.
FiniFiniTOOBZ! @ 77
My parents raised me right – I have to shake my head at the antics of some of my so called peers. And I often find myself sounding like a curmudgeon even though I have not attained the required age of 40 or older to qualify as an official curmudgeon. Mom always said I have an old soul.
Uhhh… thanks from those of us who just turned “official curmudgeon”. ;)
By the way, get off my lawn!
Eureka Springs, AR @ 114
I’m having a senior moment here, but I remember once being corrected by an elder that the term curmudgeon is specifically male and there is a corresponding term that is the feminine usage. Either way, you and I can toast to Single Awareness Day together! Slainte!
He’s just shifting gears so that he can continue to get free shrimp cocktail and Tatingers at the Chevy Chase Club when the sea changes.
darkblack @ 115
Allright! Allright! I’ll just run over to ESAR’s lawn and drink this champagn with her. Hmph!
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 118
having struggled with the fact that “mid-forties” will soon only apply in the most generous reading, I salute your new term.
Slightly off topic, but did anyone else read the comments to Doug “the stupidest f*cking man on the planet” Feith’s piece in today’s WaPo? I only went three pages deep, but it was three pages of blistering and mostly articulate & well-written scorn, derision and contempt. I think I was over there around 5pm east coast time and there were something like 24 pages of comments. Yow. Digby, as usual, sees the big picture. The more the “traditional media” makes the transition to the web, and it’s a tranistion they’re being forced to make – and frequently not on their own terms – the more they’re subjected to the direct/instant democracy/fact-checking/feedback we bring. Seems to me that the government has been largely insulated from these forces to date. But as we see with the Feith piece today, when government players turn to the media in order to defend themselves, increasingly they have to play by the rules set down by the left blogs. In the same way, TV (Tim Russert anyone?) was something of a safe haven for politicians and media figures, but YouTube and Crooks & Liars and the rest are blowing big holes in that wall too. Overall, the playing field is still not level, but we’re getting there.
FiniFiniTOOBZ! @ 121
The bard said it best, it would be “shrew”
JohnSwifty got it, thanks for the reminder. But that term shrew has such negativeness attached to it where curmudgeonly is almost a cute term. We could always reclaim it.
FiniFiniTOOBZ! @ 123
In my day we didn’t sup champ-pag-nee with the ‘gals’ until we were married, proper like…All six of us.
And we LIKED it!
;>)
FiniFiniTOOBZ! @ 125
grouch potato?
FiniFiniTOOBZ! @
70
Demographics of Democratic Blog Activists
Average age: 46.4
Average Ed.:
Post-Graduate Degree: 41.1%
College Graduate: 38.5%
Some College: 17.63%
High Scholl or less: 2.83%
Average income: $80.2K
Pew Research Study of Dean Activists
FiniFiniTOOBZ! @ 126
Elizabeth Taylor was cute once, National Velvet, I believe. Oh, and Ivanhoe!
I’ll be forty two, tomorrow, on the ides and I’d prefer to spend it eating psilocybin and watching Bogart movies, but I imagine I’ll do some work, alas.
They call me Mr. Eureka, among so many other things…) But either way I will gladly toast those who are with good friends or lovers on this fine night.
cheers
Pinson? Do you have a Feith link?
I have done a lot of criminal trial work and, from my experience, have never seen anything like this and it would freak me out. After getting over the initial freak out, however, I would probably moderate somewhat toward Christy’s view. If the juror is an alternate, its not an issue; if she is a member of the prospective panel, however, I would probably ask Walton to initiate a subtle inquiry to see what the general parameters of the situation is. If there was anything substantive going on, I would ask that she be replaced. If the court were to agree to replace her, I think the caselaw would support the judge’s discretion to do so. There are cases in which alternates have been substituted for outlier obstreperous jurors even after deliberations have begun, but I don’t know if that was in a federal jurisdiction or not.
punaise @ 128
potato au grating?
I always hated those t-shirts with teddy bears on them that the the blood bank would give you for donating blood, and I wouldn’t wear a shirt with a heart on it either.
She’s an art curator, no? This sounds more like a fashion statement than anything else to me.
FiniFiniTOOBZ! @ 119
Hmmm… per thesuarus.reference.com, curmudgeon means “whiner”. Doesn’t seem to indicate if it’s just a male term.
http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/curmudgeon
However, if we go with something like “cranky”, we get terms like “crotchety” and “crabby” and others. I could see a man being called “crotchety” and I could definitely be described as “crabby” or “irascible”. Maybe even “saturnine” – that has a nice feminine ring to it, and most people probably have no clue what it means.
http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/crabby
john in sacramento @ 130
Errrm, those should be median ages, income, and education
Oh …. and new thread
montag @ 132
golden: I guess you gnome ore than me
FiniFiniTOOBZ! @ 121
Yes, I think only menfolk can be curmudgeons. Which frustrates me, because I’d love to be one. However, as a woman I’m proud to call myself, at my advanced (!) age of 61, a crone. Not quite the same feel, but the same action in the world…
johnSwifty @ 128
Happy birthday!
johnSwifty @ 130
Happy birthday! You know they say 40 is the new 30 and 50 is the new 40. 65 however, is still just 65. Wonder how that worked out? Anyway, enjoy your birthday, may the gods smile upon your anniversary of your birth with no morons, zero wingnut exposure and a mixed up kid in the kitchen at the restaurant of your birthday dinner granting your psilocybin wish by accident.
Interesting article, Digby. You certainly speak for many of us who have been reading and commenting at these sites. Heck, you must have been reading my mind:
http://cujo359.blogspot.com/20…..-here.html
Executive summary: I’ve come to the conclusion that bipartisanship is highly overrated. But there’s a cool graphic.
Anyway, when Joe Klein starts empathizing with us I start to wonder what titanic forces have been at work behind the scenes, but it’s refreshing.
punaise @ 129
YES!!! Fabulous! I’m tempted to change my moniker… Grouch potato. It’s perfect…
LandOfTheFree @ 140
Thank you, one and all. Breakfast at Tiffany’s is on right now; it is some consolation.
Marion in Savannah @ 141
it’s all yours!
john swifty:
my birthday is tomorrow, too!!!!
48
happy birthday…..
was just catching up on comments from today…..am finally done, nite all.
and i found the t-shirt thing disturbing on many levels…..i would address it and hope the court does…… out of place, out of time….it’s not a frat party….it’s a trial for a frat party…..and what went on and when during the frat party…..
dmac @ 146
That’s true on so many levels.
UPDATE: Happy birthday to you and John Swifty.
eureka @132
here’s the link for wapo column
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01092.html
Marion in Savannah @ 139
My opinion is that you are mistaken about women not being curmudgeons. I already knew in grade school the definition of the word “curmudgeon” — not only did I love the SOUND of the word (it sounds simultaneously crunchy and mushy, doesn’t it? crusty exterior with a mushy center?), I identified with it immediately.
My mom always said I was BORN a curmudgeon. Not only did I wake up in the morning cranky, I woke up from my afternoon nap cranky — cranky at the whole world. [Late night was a different story — I’ve been a “night person” since I was born, too.]
Oh, and HAPPY WONDERFUL BIRTHDAY to our FirePups, John Swifty and dmac!
Have a great day! Valentines followed by birthday cards…how cool is that?
Mrs. K8 @
150
Thanks Mrs. K8, it means more coming from a curmudgeon. Happy b-day dmac, many returns!
Back after awhile away – just skimmed the first few pages of comments on Feith’s piece – not one single comment supporting him…page after page calling him a liar, etc.
And as someone commented, nearly all clear, well-composed, and while passionate, not over the top.
(Or at least not over the top to me; but then I read blogs regularly).
Good stuff.
As always, that’s a very satisfying post, Digby, especially after reading Glenn Greenwald’s post about Frank Gaffney this morning; however well-written, that sort of outrageous crap can only further irritate and discourage a person. The continual spewing of outlandish lies and hate from adults in positions of authority and responsibility has given me shell-shock.
tejanarusa @ 152
Feith lied, people died, was one of the first comments and one of the best.
My own comment was more along the lines of this guy’s:
Hey, Feith, you lying piece of scum, I hope to see you dangling from a rope. Soon!
By aa_desmedt | Feb 14, 2007 10:53:29 PM | Request Removal
I’m tired of making nice to war criminals!
I just have this feeling that maybe we are finally truly entering the post-Reagan era, when any sort of right wing horseshit that is smothered in faux righteousness is in fact seen by the majority of US voters for what it is, i.e., horseshit. I’ve got my fingers crossed.
p.lukasiak @
58
Nah, it’s the wisdom.
Nice work. Keep up the good fight.
Are comments moderated on this site?
I left a comment here last night, now it’s gone.
Anybody aware of a policy?