In general, why should HRC point at herself and say SHE f*cked up, when it was Bush who lied. Whay should ANY of the candidates say, “Aw, shucks, Folks! I screwed up by believing that the information the President had was better than I had, so I gave him the benefit of the doubt.”

When you’ve been victimized by the patriotic BS extortion that was going then – as the whole country was – why should you say, “I am sorry I was a victim”?

NO.

The issue is Bush and the lies, not who was victimized by those lies.

Leaders take responsibility. If she wants to say she’s a victim, she should go on Oprah and write a personal memior, and stop pretending to be a leader.

kennethp @ 98

The question is not what she knows now, but what she could have known then. If she read the classified NIE before the vote, she would have known then what she knows now.

Haven’t you been paying attention? BushCo wasn’t letting anyone – even ergular Armed Services Committee members – IN on the NIE. Hillary couldn’t have seen it if she subpoenaed it.

(Hell, they only got the damned AUMF bill the day before they were to vote on it. Don’t you all remember that? How the ehll were they supposed to know what the hell they were voting on? The Dems didn’t have the ability to postpone the vote, if you recall. It wasn’t like now. They were powerless to move ANYthing in Congress, what with the enabling GOP chairmen stonewalling and obstructing the Congress and delaying till the elephants came home.)

The only people who they were informing were the Comittee chairman abd the top Dem, and they made THEM swear not to talk about it. The regular committee members never got to see it and were stonewalled about every aspect of it – and almost everything else.

When you’ve been victimized by the patriotic BS extortion that was going then – as the whole country was – why should you say, “I am sorry I was a victim”?

NO.

The issue is Bush and the lies, not who was victimized by those lies.

The Clinton Party just about destroyed the Democratic Party throughout the country. States like ND only now are starting to rebuild on encouraging gains in ‘06. The infrastructure was obliterated to serve the Clinton Party. Enough.

Woah! The Democratic Party was doing the “let’s focus on just the races we think we can win” thing LONG before Bill Clinton came along. He was only in the WH 2 years when that strategy fell through the floor in ‘94. Just because he was in the WH when it happened, don’t blame him. He was in Arkansas 95% of the time that was developing, having no influence at all upon DC politics. Dont’ go blaming him for what the DLC was doing for decades, letting the Party rot except in their strongholds. THAT was why the GOP was able to get traction in ‘94. Clinton didn’t do anything to change direction, but neither did any of his predecessors.

Why are you heaping all that on his shoulders? Got a rash against Hillary, do we?

Bill was the most effective President we’ve had in my lifetime. I was never a fan of his, nor an enemy. Later I saw how much he did to balance the damned budget, military and non-military, and after the 12 years of Reagan-Bush spending sprees, that was maybe the biggest Presidential accomplishment in the 20th century. Even during Lewinsky-gate and the impeachment, his popularity was sky high.

His coattail is still strong 8 years later. ANY Dem in ‘08 will kick the GOP’s ass, but which candidate will govern best? There will be 8 years of doofus-f*ck-brain sheit to undo, and just any old Dem won’t do: THIS one will have to FIX the government. That will take some huge nads, and Hillary has ones as big as any.

Would I vote for her? Yep. Obama? Yep. Edwards? You bet. But which one will have the steel ones to get the job done?

kennyp asks: This wasn’t clear enough?

Anyone dumb enough to trust Bush to begin with should be running for a Darwin Award, not the presidency.

All snark aside, let’s grant that she was as aware as the 22 other Dem Senators who voted against the war authorization that the evidence didn’t add up. But instead made a calculated political move with an eye to her 2008 run for the presidency, though one that has turned out to be wrong.

What that tells me is that she recognizes that the Big Boys will never support anyone for President who doesn’t reserve the unconstitutional power of the President to take the country to war protect their investments in a pinch, without the bother of a Congressional debate and approval. Her husband would have taught her that. Even Kerry argued for that power when running in ‘04.

This also explains why she won’t admit her vote was a mistake, since it would undermine that position.

Restoring the constitutional power of Congress to declare war is becoming something of a sine qua non for me in supporting a presidential candidate.

This wasn’t clear enough?

CLINTON: Well, I have said, and I will repeat it, that, knowing what I know now, I would never have voted for it. [audience applause] But I also—and, I mean, obviously you have to weigh everything as you make your decision. I have taken responsibility for my vote. The mistakes were made by this president, who misled this country and this Congress into a war that should not have been waged.

The question is not what she knows now, but what she could have known then. If she read the classified NIE before the vote, she would have known then what she knows now. She needs to be explain her lack of due diligence on such an important vote.

TILTON (2/10/07): I want to know if right here, right now, once and for all, without nuance, you can say that that war authorization vote was a mistake…The reason I ask personally is because I, and I think a lot of other Democratic primary voters, until we hear you say that, we’re not going to hear all these other great things you’re saying.

CLINTON: Well, I have said, and I will repeat it, that, knowing what I know now, I would never have voted for it. [audience applause] But I also—and, I mean, obviously you have to weigh everything as you make your decision. I have taken responsibility for my vote. The mistakes were made by this president, who misled this country and this Congress into a war that should not have been waged.

What she is saying is correct, IMHO. Obama has plenty of non-progressive ghosts in his closet, too. It works to the wingers advantage when dumb dems use the rightwing abuse tactics on eachother.

Far more serious is her neo-con saber rattling with Iran. She’s as bad as Lie-berman. HRC was asked if she thought it would be fair to subject Iranian women and children to nuclear warfare and she replied that all options must be kept on the table. Contrast that!

kennyp

This country is gasping for some bold, honest leadership and Clinton is just more of the same old crap.

A grand opportunity awaits us in 2008 and if we get more of this god damned inside-the-beltway myopic leadership…. sigh

Dru — that article from Common Dreams you cited is from February 2003.

It’s damned hard to pick the one and only quote he gave from that article and pin him down on it. You’ll also note that the author also said, “There are indications, however, that Dean’s position on Israel and Palestine is not firm.” IN 2003.

Isn’t it at all possible that AIPAC helped tank Dean because his position was fluid?

Yes it is possible. Just pointing out that he has expressed support for that org. which shall land me in moderation. And I’m aware of the date; that is when he was campaigning :)