
[Please keep the comments section on topic with discussion of today's featured book. Any off-topic discussions should be taken to the prior thread. Please be polite to our guest -- and please join me in welcoming Elizabeth de la Vega. -- CHS]
For our readers who have been following the Traitorgate investigation, a discussion of the machinations of the Bush Administration and all of its neocon allies often comes with few surprises. But even for me, having followed the day to day details of this investigation for so long a time, the sheer scope of the long term, well-planned, malicious mendacity detailed by Elizabeth de la Vega in U.S. v. Bush is shocking.
Betsy begins her book with three goals in mind: (1) To ask whether the President and his team defrauded the country; (2) To examine the facts in a courtroom context, based on facts to be considered outside the usual political spin; and (3) To show just exactly how well-considered and far-reaching in scope and personnel this was within the Bush Administration, to ask the questions that need asking with regard to achieving some measure of accountability. To do this, she uses the vehicle of a presentation of evidence to a grand jury through witness testimony and citations to evidentiary materials — government documents, public statements, and other publicly available materials.
And the information provided, when it is compiled all in one place and detailed in page after page after page, by a prosecutor with twenty years of experience in laying out a case in a detailed and logical fashion for a jury? Well, it's very effective. And chilling.
As Betsy explains in her introduction, the cost of such fraud is substantial — in lives, in national reputation, in loss of trust and integrity — and that there ought to be a steep price paid by persons who would attempt to perpetrate such a fraud on the American public.
Thus far, however, in the case of the vastly broader and more devastating Iraq war fraud orchestrated by the CEO of the United States and his management team, the system has failed. And we are all victims of this fraud. George W. Bush exploited the vulnerability of an entire populace reeling from the September 11, 2001, attacks to manipulate them into supporting a war based on false pretenses. If the cost of the President's fraud is astronomical — $340 billion in direct war costs alone as of August 2006 — the human cost is incalculable, and far more profound…
…I'm calling on Democrats and Republicans to do the right thing. And I'm calling on everyone else to do whatever you can to convince Congress to do the right thing. I am not talking about bringing people to justice in the vengeful sense that President Bush employs. I am talking about effecting justice. I am talking, finally, about holding our highest government officials accountable for a complex and calculated program of false pretense, misleading statements and material omissions — a criminal betrayal of trust that is strikingly similar to, yet far worse than, the fraud committed by Enron's top officials.
On of the most compelling segments of U.S. v. Bush is the compilation of research that Betsy has done on the membership of the White House Iraq Group (more commonly known as the WHIG), and its integral role in "selling" the Iraq invasion to the American public like a new and improved jar of peanut butter for the supermarket shelves. Except, in this particular case, what was sold was a war based on lies and hollow promises, and without any real plan beyond invasion, and the cost of such a sales job in lives and limbs and minds and hearts has been devastating.
For those who are not familiar with the WHIG, it's members included: Karen Hughes and Karl Rove, who were it's co-chairs; Andrew Card, Mary Matalin, James R. Wilkinson (a GOP political operative and Bush election advisor), Nicholas Calio (the Bush Congressional liaison), Condoleeze Rice, Stephen Hadley, and Scooter Libby. It was formed in July of 2002, and met weekly in the White House Situation Room, convening to plan a strategy for he sale of the Administration's Iraq war plans to the American public.
On pages 184-186 of U.S. v. Bush, there is a discussion of an Elizabeth Bumiller article that sticks in my mind still today from that summer of 2002:
A. Yes. The article also says that the President, Hughes, Card and Rove had begun planning the strategy in July, and "a centerpiece" of it was to use Bush's upcoming speech commemorating the 9/11 attacks to "help Americans toward support of action against Iraq, which could come early next year."
Q. In other words, they intended to tie the marketing of the war against Iraq to 9/11, even though they knew the two were unconnected?
A. Yes.
Q. What else does the article reveal about the defendants' intent?
A. It says, "the White House wants a resolution approving the use of force in Iraq to be approved in the next four to five weeks." So despite Bush's earlier promise of "open dialogue," his aides were admitting that they had already decided what they wanted to do about Iraq — and when they wanted to do it.
It was also clear that Bush and his advisors intended to do whatever they had to do to ram their plan through. The article notes that congressional leaders were skeptical about whether Iraq posed an "imminent threat," but White House officials told the Times they would reveal "higher levels of intelligence" to make their case and, according to an unnamed official, "In the end it will be difficult for someone to vote against it." In other words, the Bush-Cheney administration's deliberate strategy was not just to persuade Congress directly, but to pressure Congress by manipulating the opinions of their constituents.
In U.S. v, Bush, Betsy lays out the entire malignant production, bit by bit, including such interesting pieces of information as the usefulness of knowing the White House website calendar's euphimisms (Did you know that "Welcome" was a stand-in for publicly funded campaign stop that we can fob off as a public appearance?), along with the false premises that members of the WHIG and their principles were vouching on the airwaves and in print, despite knowing that the factual basis for such claims was far from solid and, in some cases, altogether false and misleading to the public:
– The alleged connection between Saddam Hussein and the attacks of September 11, 2001;
— The alleged connection between Iraq and al Qaeda;
— The alleged connection between Saddam Hussein and any terrorists whose primary animus was directed toward the United States;
— Saddam Hussein's alleged intent to attack the United States in any way;
— Saddam Hussein's possessionof nuclear weapons and the status of any alleged ongoing nuclear weapons programs;
— The lack of any reasonable basis for asserting with any certainty that Saddam Hussein was actively manufacturing chemical and biological weapons; and
— The alleged urgency of any threat posed to the United States by Sadam Hussein.
All of which, as detailed in U.S. v. Bush, was false and was known to be false, and yet was used for a con job on the American public nonetheless.
This entire sorry spectacle, from the ramping up to the mess in Iraq by the WHIG public relations machinations, through to the failure to plan for the occupation of Iraq — the looting of public buildings on forward to the still-as-yet-barely-functioning power grid in Baghdad, from the Traitorgate investigation borne out of payback for criticizing the lack of integrity of the Vice President through to the more recent revelations of even more information on the Doug Feith-led Intel Chop Shop at the Pentagon. It is all in U.S. v. Bush, in a very readable — very infuriatingly readable — format.
The question is, once one has all of this information at hand — the PNAC involvement, the WHIG con job, the hands on participation of the President and Vice President, the use of war for political purposes — what exactly does one do with this? Perhaps we should all start by reading the draft indictment that is so conveniently provided in U.S. v. Bush. And then take a moment to contemplate the true meaning of the words in the Declaration of Independence:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
We hold these truths to be self-evident: a President who does not uphold his oath of office, and who fails to respect and follow the rule of law, is no President — he is a tyrant and an attempted King. And it is well past time for accountability to be demanded for these wrongs to the Constitution and to the laws of this great land.
And with that, I open the discussion, and welcome Elizabeth de la Vega to Firedoglake. Welcome, Betsy!




197 Comments





Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Welcome to FDL! I saw you on CSpan last night, Elizabeth, you were great.
Hello Christy and Firedoglakers,
Thanks so much for this opportunity to talk about U.S. v Bush with all of you. Christy has done a fantastic job of introducing the book, so let’s go!
Elizabeth,
Welcome and thanks for stopping by. I thoroughly enjoyed your book and got one for my brother for Christmas too.
My question is this: Why do you think Pelosi said that impeachment is off the table?
Fitz, FDL, Marcy, Elizabeth de la Vega, my heros
Ms. de la Vega, an honor to have you here at FDL. If you find it of interest, I am very interested in any reflections you have about the Bush Administration’s slashing of resources that US Attorneys need to function.
Elizabeth
On Book TV yesterday, you said that you were glad that you hadn’t been arrested. Have you been threatened or intimidated in any way?
Terry Olson @ 2
That is an outstanding question. I have a lot of respect for Nancy Pelosi. She was certainly not in a position –especially given that if Bush and Cheney were ever actually removed from office she would be the President– to spearhead the effort, but I think her word choice was unfortunate. More important, as Molly Ivins says “we are the deciders” and people should continue to speak out for what they believe is right. It appears that we have to lead Congress these days.
Gordon @ 5
Oh, I was only kidding, but thanks for asking.
Saw you on Cspan, watching you now, again on Cspan thank you for all your hard work.
Thanks for appearing and for your book. I’ve written to my two California senators urging impeachment of Bush, Cheney, and the rest of their criminal gang. I was disappointed with Feinstein’s lame reply. Any suggestions on how we might get Congress’ attention sufficient for them to take seriously the growing sentiment in the U.S. for impeachment? It may be our last chance to save our republic, as well as begin to restore our international credibility.
John Casper @ 4
If Waxman does the job I think he will, can impeachment not be the only logical result of his investigations? Will the investigations take too long?
Betsy — It’s so great to have you here to discuss the book. Thanks so much for joining us today.
Elizabeth de la Vega @ 10
What’s of most concern to me about the US Attorneys’ offices is that since the beginning of the Bush administration, the control of the offices has become increasingly centralized in Washington. It appears that budgets for all of the government offices except those relating to the military have been cut drastically. It’s part of the Grover Norquist plan to shrink the federal government.
Just wanted to say Hi, Elizabeth, will rejoin you all here later, but I’m watching a replay of you on Book TV on C-Span 2 right now. Hmmm…watch you on TV or interact on the internet, but without video. It’s a hard decision. But you’re speaking so well and I’m learning so much. On the other hand, I do want you to know what a fan I am of yours. As you told Helen Thomas, I’d like to give you a hug.
What’s your reaction to the dismissal of 7 US Attorneys recently, and the change slipped into the Patriot Act that allows the adminstration to fill those positions with anyone they choose, indefinately? No senate approval necessary.
Ann in AZ @ 14
John at 5 — Funny how so many of those resources have been slashed in areas where a Republican member of Congress or substantial fundraiser happened to be under investigation, isn’t it? (And I specifically refer folks to Jerry Lewis’ district in CA as one very good example of that.)
The late Molly Ivins, probably throwing thunderbolts at the politicians in the afterlife, and having fun doing it.
I have not had the chance to read your book, but have read “The People’s History of the United States” by Howard Zinn, which at least implies that the government has never acted in the interests of the people, but secretly acted on their own interests, while the media mostly watched. What differences, if any, do you see between how the current Bush government has acted and how other U.S. administrations have acted in the past?
You’ve got Mary Matalin mentioned twice, and have left out Michael Gerson as members of WHIG.
You make a compelling argument in the case of fraud. It would have been helpful to show the money trail which seems to be enormous and complicated but perhaps it would strengthen the argument.
But now I need to ask why not expand this to a case of crimes against humanity and war crimes?
Christy at 17,
Lam in San Diego, too-of Cunningham distinction. What’s this I hear about Darrell Issa liking this canning?
Elizabeth de la Vega @ 16
Thanks Ann and to all of you who are so welcoming to me. In answer to the questions about what we can do, I don’t have a magic answer, but I think it is important to keep up the pressure on Congress in every way possible. I also believe that the evidence of the Bush administration’s actions does lead inevitably to the conclusion that impeachment is warranted, but the most important consideration to me is that we get the truth out and not preordain the outcome of any hearings.
Fools on the HIll @ 20
One of the biggest problems I had in writing this book was how to limit it to a manageable size and scope. Just as I would have in any criminal case, I wanted to show the criminal intent as powerfully as possible for this one crime and it makes the cases for the others easier to prove. The Bush Administration has committed many crimes, including those you’ve mentioned.
Somethings at 20 — Ooops — clearly I have Mary Matalin on the brain today. (And how unpleasant is that?!?) Appreciate the heads up that I had her in there twice.
podcat @ 18
Elizabeth de la Vega @ 25
First, I apologize for hitting the submit button prematurely a second ago.
But, the biggest difference I see is that previous administrations at least appeared to accept the rule of law and had the “grace” to violate the law secretly. This admin. is simply blatantly in violation of the law and seems to be saying “so what”?
I hope everyone here is aware that
Artillery launched into Pakistan at the Taliban
[Mod Note; this is a timely and important link, but please remember to keep comments in the Book Salon thread to the subject of the book. Thanks.]
Welcome Elizabeth, thanks for your work.
Do you have any sense that the drive for impeachment is growing across the country? There is a lot going on in that arena, at least on the net and in political organizations, but the politicians–whether local or national–seem to lack the will/courage.
Ms de la Vega,
I’m going to try to be efficient by asking two questions here:
1.) Given the, um, tepid response from federal congresscritters of every stripe, do you think that we should be focusing on getting up state and local initiatives/resolutions for impeachment?
2.) Any idea why Rep Conyers has backed off? There was supposed to be a book, some people paid $ for it and I think that has been quietly shelved (if anyone has knowledge of that pls advise, I googled but came up dry). I hope the Dems are just keeping their powder dry or some such metaphor, but … I worry that we got a bait-and-switch in Nov.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 24
Christy, thanks for the welcome– and Mary Matalin is such a big force in this group, she probably deserves to be in there twice!
I should clarify my remark to say that the media is shown to be actively supporting government, as in the case for the Iraq war, as well as ignoring what would go against government interest.
Mary Matalin is a snake.
Elizabeth? Do you predict more indictments related to the Plame case after the conclusion of the Libby trial?
Betsy at 27 — I think that is one of the things that most appalls me about this entire mess: the brazen in-your-face conduct and the fact that the members of Congress have failed to stand up and act in the way the Constitution mandates that they ought to act. The fact that Bruce Fein gets this, that Bob Barr gets this — and perhaps it is their past work for the DoJ that colors their vision on this — but truly, this has been such a monumental shift in perspective from protecting the long-term rule of law and the solidity of the American foundations of government to the short-term grab at power and to hell with any consequences.
That it is not recognized for the brazen selfish behavior that it is…well, it’s just beyond me. Bt if it is recognized as such, and memebrs of Congress fail to act on that repeatedly, then shame on them. And shame on any of us who tolerate it.
Elizabeth -
I would appreciate your thoughts about this excerpt from something David Kurtz wrote on Josh Marshall’s Talking Points Memo about a week ago:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c…..012263.php
HotFlash @ 29
This is an answer to BG and Hotflash. If you want to get involved inb impeachment work, go to http://www.afterdowningst.org and you can find out everything you need to know. My thinking on impeachment has evolved substantially over the past six months and particularly over the past month. Just as a good attorney doesn’t let the opposition define the case, I don’t think the public should let any political party define the agenda. The state and local impeachment resolutions are beginning to get attention and can provide Congress with both the momentum and cover it needs to be agressive.
what are the chances that the House will take up the evidence we are hearing in the Libby trial?
We also saw your BookTV talk yesterday and thought it was very effective, with great detail such as your dog’s interest in those White House press releases. You were very convincing and I wonder is there a way to get copies of that presentation for wider distribution? Particularly your example of the aluminum tubes issue as a proof of fraud.
Great work, Elizabeth! Thank you.
Q: Do you think Libby’s being convicted will make it easier to get impeachment investigations underway?
Any comments, Betsy, on Gerald Ortiz y Pino’s impeachment resolution now in the New Mexico legislature?
Welcome Elizabeth, Your book just got put on my wishlist (b-day next week).
I always keep on wondering … what if…
Like what if the next President and Congress recognises the Permanent Court of International Justice (PCIJ) in den Hague? Could Bush and his cronies be subject to future prosecution for crimes against humanity?
montag @ 41
Montag, the latest is that the Republicans are vowing to boycott the hearings, which means the committee will have no quorum. We are trying to keep the heat on.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 35
This is wild. It would actually be quite funny that it’s impossible to find out who works in the VP’s office if it weren’t so nightmarish. I can’t even respond to this theory because it is alien to anything I’ve ever heard, but one thing we have all learned by now is that no idea of centralized all-powerful government is too radical for Dick Cheney.
Ms de la Vega:
Thank you so much for your book (and the work that went into it–nice digging).
On a bit of a side issue: How do you think the Libby capper will play out?
bg @ 43
Well, I was asking for opinions of the resolution itself, rather than the progress of it. But, on what you mention, that has the distinct odor of Rod Adair to it, no question.
Yes, Repugs are organized to boycott. I’m sure they will continue in lockstep. The impeachment hearing scheduled for Friday was postponed to next Friday. There are vigils scheduled all week in Santa Fe.
Elizabeth, why do you think our Democratic Senators seem so reluctant to follow the lead of Feingold, both when he suggested censure (which it seemed to me to be the least they could do)and now when he’s advocating using the power of the purse (as opposed to meaningless and teethless gestures)?
It’s more than a little ditressing that we have violated yet another nation’s sovereignty today, by attacking the Taliban in the Waziristan area of Pakistan.
And we have the Mega-Unitary status of the VP now to contend with.
What’s happening in Vt? and how does a resolution from a state trigger a response in the House ?
Christine Harrington @ 37
I think that the evidence that has come out about the Office of the VP and the tidbits that show the President’s knowledge of the overall effort to discredit Wilson by, among other things, selectively leaking misleading information from the NIE should reinforce Levin’s and Conyers’ and others desire to investigate the Iraq invasion fraud.
One of the most frustrating things about this whole situation, and the reason I wrote the book, is that we already know, as Christy suggested as well, far more than we need to know to take action against this administration.
Christine at 38 — I hope neither side of Congress touches anything with the Libby trial until we hear from Fitzgerald himself that the investigation has concoluded. It was Congressional meddling and immunity deals in exchange for public show hearings that sunk the prosecutions for Iran Contra. Whatever may or may not follow from the Libby prosecution, I’d like it to first come out of the courts in order for justice to be served.
Elizabeth de la Vega @ 23
do you think a “truth and reconciliation” process would be helpful here in the usa, as it has been elsewhere?
SteveW @ 33
That is a stumper. I think the undisputed evidence that is already out there makes a darned good case for a conspiracy to cover-up the leak involving at least Cheney and Armitage, as well as Libby, of course, but I can’t predict what will happen on this one.
Ms. de la Vega,
it’s not hard to see that the Administration came up with a composite, scattershot and poorly coherent, set of motives to wage the war. I’m curious, not having seen your book, whether you think there was ever a true bottom line rationale.
At present I’m inclined to think that the driving force was not objective at all, whatever the marketing. It seems almost too easy to encapsulate all of the psychological forces in the one word ‘vanity’, but I’m not coming up with much else.
Answer to Selise #51- I think a truth and reconciliation process would be great, The concern would be finding people who could conduct it a non-partisan way.
Elizabeth, I loved your comment on timelines (from the cspan appearance) and how important it is to lay out what was happening publicly with what was happening behind the scenes at the same time.
We’re seeing that play out now in the Libby trial, and it was used brilliantly in the documentary “The Smartest Guys in the Room” about the Enron debacle.
Your book is next on my reading list!
Christy Hardin Smith @ 51
It would be the end of ironic if Congress, which has done nothing useful so far, managed to screw up the only effective action we’ve seen since the Supreme Court made this whole mess possible.
I cannot wait to buy your book. I think the issues raised here are at the crux of a lot of problems faced by temporary American culture:– the process of selling has become more important than the substance of what is being sold, whether that is a war, a new car or a new brand of perfume. And, in the Bush administration, you have a gang of spindoctors who respect ONLY that process, or rather the tired bread and circus routine that passes for “selling”, laws, morality, truth and substance be darned. It’s kind of like the opposite of McLuhan’s “the medium is the message.” In this case, the message is everything. Everything else is disloyalty.
In their headlines for February 2, 2007, Democracy Now! reported that:
“…Democratic House Judiciary Committee chair John Conyers has announced plans to investigate President Bush’s use of signing statements — through which he claims a right to ignore or not enforce sections of bills that he signs into law. Conyers says the investigation will focus on around 150 of the signing statements Bush has signed into law. Since taking office the president has issued over 800 signing statements – more than all other presidents combined.”
Obviously this is one of the unusual aspects of the current Bush presidency. What is your interpretation of the claim that the president has the power to sign certain laws, but can also ignore or not enforce them?
TheOtherWA at 56 — That’s a great prosecutorial technique that she uses to great advantage in US v. Bush. You will definitely enjoy the read.
jillian @ 53
Jillian, I think that it’s impossible to ascribe one overall motive to each of the players, but what I lay out in the book is kind of a perfect storm of motives that include, on the part of many in the administration, the Project for New American Century principles of global dominance and entitlement to oil in the middle east –things they never really admit, of course– as well as a desire on the part of Bush to be commander-in-chief, a desire to beef up Republicans’ chances in the election, a desire to show people in the Middle East that “we” are tough guys and possibly, Bush’s desire to get revenge for Saddam Hussein’s alleged attack on his father.
Question for Anyone: Why did Libby lie?
TheOtherWA @ 56
Do you have a timeline can share?
Elizabeth de la Vega @ 53
RawStory is saying that the NYT is saying that Cheney will make an appearance, possibly Monday. I don’t know what to make of this.
Blub @ 57
You’re right- and the problem is, as Christy mentioned, we seem to have come to accept it. People find it hard to believe that it is actually illegal for executive branch officials to lie to the public and Congress to get congress to take action. In fact, we have higher standards and expectations for weight loss product advertising!
Part of the perfect storm for Bushco vis a vis Iraq was the side benefit of the outsourcing of the army to contractors and the money dumping into private coffers that went with it.
I really have no doubt that the money used to buy missiles (whatever) to attack the US forces has come from our pockets. That would be a great investigation.
podcat @ 58
I’d love to hear what Christy says on this, but I believe that the signing statements have little, if any, legal effect. What’s most important about them is what they show about Bush’s mindset– he actually wants people to know that he has no regard whatsoever for the law.
SteveW @ 34
My question is similar. It would seem to me that in his investigation, Fitz must have seen a lot of the same stuff you talk about. I’ve read or heard somewhere that several former US Attorneys said that if it were they, based on the evidence we already know about, they would have charged conspiracy, and named Cheney at least an unindicted co-conspirator. What are your thoughts on this?
Terry @62, no I don’t. I’ve just been following the witnesses testimony and then compared it to Libby’s GJ testimony. IMO, Libby’s so busted it’s not even funny. (Yes, we still have to hear the defense side, he’s innocent until proven guilty.) It just looks bad for Libby at this point.
Elizabeth, I’m looking forward to your book. Do you discuss the current US doctrine of unilateral preemptive war and what we can do about it?
I insist on challenging politicians who say “all options are on the table,” but we need to do more than that. Thanks very much.
I agree with your pt of view on the signing statements– this would be a distraction at this time from the BIG show— impeachable offenses.
Elizabeth de la Vega @ 68
Terry Olson @ 62
Oh my goodness-The timelines are really, really long. As I’ve been explaining to people at various book talks, they basically took over my house and there were a few parts that the dog ate! I hope you like the book…
Betsy at 67 — I agree. I think they have no lega effect, but they do say an awful lot about what Bush and Cheney are thinking in terms of their own “unilateral executive” mindset. And about the disrespct that they have for the Legislative and Judiciary branches of government. I keep waiting for someone with standing to challenge one of these multiple signing statements, but thus far have not heard of any solid case being brought. Has anyone else?
Christy, what is your sense of where Fitzgerald is going with the conspirary charge (against Buck et al)?
HotFlash @ 58
As has been noted above, the NY Times will have a story that Cheney will tesitfy at the Libbey trial. What are the questions you would ask him?
Elizabeth, thanks for writing a great book
Have you talked to John Dean about impeachment
efforts… It seems to me that we need to move fast because Iran is just around the corner…
The dots HAVE been connected of fraud,
lying, and inteliigence gerrymandering… (all
high crimes! How high?)
My line of questioning would stay away from his theory of presidental powers and focus on info concerning what happened, when and where.
jeffreyw @ 76
Christine at 74 — I agree with Betsy that there certainly could be a strong circumstantial case made for a conspiracy between a number of the players in this trial, just based solely on testimony and notes and other evidence we’ve heard in the Libby trial alone. And that is only a small fraction of the information that Fitzgerald and his investigative FBI team and lawyers have gone over with the grand jury. I cannot get out of my mind the fact that they were seen going back to the grand jury early in the term with briefcases of information — and I would LOVE to know what was involved in that and why. But there is a reason tha such proceedings are secret, and thus I’m just waiting to see if and when there is any public statement from Fitzgerald or any member of his team on where things go — or do not go — from here.
Dean at #69–There is mention of it in the book. As you obviously agree, I think the doctrine of preemptive war is a clear violation of international law, not to mention that it has never been the policy of this country.
Elizabeth
I just wanted to say it was incredible to hear you in person at the Impeachment Forum at the California State Democratic Convention last year; it was a very valuable resource for those of us sitting in the audience.
My first question that I have I guess is that in reference to Nancy Pelosi “taking impeachment off the table” is how can she be so presumptuous to say this?
OK, probably a loaded question but …. really as Speaker of the House – a constitutional officer (the facilitator of the membership) I don’t think it’s up to her to be the Decider (TM) – it’s for the members themselves as representatives of The People (the Deciders (TM)) in their district to Decide whether or not to impeach.
When they were debating what shape the government would take, they didn’t want an all powerful executive nor an all powerful legislative branch but a tripartite government with the legislative as first among equals answerable to the people (the real Deciders (TM)) as John Locke proposed in his second treatise of government.
Sorry, I’m a constitution geek, but this really turns me off to the Speaker because her role is the same as John Roberts said in his confirmation – just calling balls and strikes.
p.s. there’s audio of the Impeachment Forum here
It doesn’t really get down to business until part 4 and 5, then it gets really good.
Nice to know that the signing statements have no effect.
Does Speedy Gonzales know that?
David at 81 — If he does, I wouldn’t bet on him saying so publicly any time soon.
Oh, I see,the timeline you used for the book. My puppy would never do a thing like that. She’d pee on it!
Hello all,
I loved the US vs. Bush. It really made the case against the administration. It is hard not to support the impeachment of both the pres. and vp after reading. congratulations. Joe
Elizabeth – Have you had any opportunity to discuss your book with any of your former AUSA colleagues or FBI types or the like? I know any current folks wouldn’t really be able to comment in any substantive way, but I’d be interested to know if any retired folks have talked to you about it? Law enforcement types of al stripes tend to take a dim view of fraud on any scale, at least around here, and I’m wondering if it is the same where you are.
Unfortunately Republicans find it easy, Mr. Wilson.
Christine Harrington @ 76
I have to say that I will be absolutely AMAZED if the defense calls Cheney. Even his direct testimony would have the effect of emphasizing the definitely sneaky, if not criminal,actions of the OVP in going after Wilson and in dealing with prewar intelligence in general, which does not help the defense at all. On cross, Fitzgerald can go over all of these points again and make it crystal clear– as if it’s not already– that Cheney and Libby were obsessed with going after Wilson. Not to mention that Cheney would be in the position of committing perjury or taking the fifth and he is one of the most disliked persons in the country. It would certainly be interesting to have him up there, tho.
Amb. Wilson at 84 — Good to see you. Please give my best wishes to your lovely spouse. :)
Welcome Ambassador. You are living in interesting times.
Thanks Betsy, this is a point that is made too little. By blithely talking about “regime change” and “preemptive war,” the Bush Administration drives regimes around the world, especially Iran, to invest heavily in WMD, as a poison pill to a possible invasion and regime change.
Recently NPR reported that unnamed government officials claimed they had evidence Iran was helping Iraq. Do you believe that, given the situation in Iraq, and the resistance to the US forces there, it will be more difficult for the government to make a case for military action against Iran?
Oh how I would love to see Fitz question Cheney!
Elizabeth thanks for the book. Who would you go for first, Bush or Cheney?
The signing statements haven’t been tested in any court yet. My assumption is that they wouldn’t stand up. It’s fine to add comments, concerns and explanations about the law, previous preidents have done that. It’s something else entirely to claim the law won’t be enforced if the president doesn’t feel like it.
Elizabeth at 87 — I’ll be absolutely amazed if Cheney’s lawyers allow the defense to put him in that position. Although it would be quite something to see, wouldn’t it?
Helloooo Mr. Wilson
Christy Hardin Smith @ 84
Christy, that’s a great question. I have received overwhelming support about this fraud analysis from current and retired people in law enforcement, many of whom I have never met. I think you would agree that people who have tried to do the right thing as prosecutors and in law enforcement over the years are particularly incensed when people in positions of power abuse that power.
Joe Wilson @ 83
Thanks Joe! I hope you and your family are doing well.
What a pleasure to read this discussion … and thank you Elizabeth for your important book!
On CNN just now, they called Cheney “the puppetmaster” behind Libby … astonishing to hear that said there.
I wouldn’t be able to do this, but wouldn’t it be beneficial to make sure that at least Conyers and Waxman have copies of this book?
I have been following your writings since you first appeared in TomDispatch, Elizabeth. I so appreciate what you’ve done here. Thank you!
Jay @ 90
I think the case against one makes the case against the other, so I think both should be pursued simultaneously.
Dear Ms. de la Vega,
Thank you for your excellent work all around. I have been very troubled by this Administration’s misuse and abuse of the power to classify and/or declassify information. Of course this is inextricably related to the administration’s maniacal secrecy, but the office of the president does possess certain legitimate powers to control secrets. My question is, do you believe we have learned of misuses and abuses of those powers for which there are no criminal statutes, because the misconduct is so blatant or novel? For example, do the president’s powers legally allow him to expose Valerie Plame’s identity (leaving aside the political ramifications for the moment)? What about select de-classification of intelligence to portray a distorted picture to support war in Iraq?
What about blatantly excessive classification of documents, or denying information to the Congress on the grounds that representatives may lack the requisite security clearances or are otherwise “legally” prohibited from getting the information? It seems to me like these areas are a void for which we have no criminal statutes and for which the only possible remedy would by the constitutional impeachment procedure. Any thoughts?
Elizabeth de la Vega @ 100
Wow, that will be the mother of all constitutional crises.. Would Pelosi be the acting President??
podcat @ 89
I, like so many others, am extremely worried about Iran. Before I wrote the book I had no idea just how far the administration had gone towards invading Iraq before they even announced they were having an “open dialogue” about it and the same thing is happening here. One thing that many people don’t know is that Cheney’s aide on the Middle East is David Wurmser, a man who has been advocating invasion of Iraq, Iran, Syria and Libya for over 10 years.
Hi Elizabeth! I was wondering what you think about the Memory Defense?
Elizabeth or Chisty,
I have followed this Wilson business pretty closely, but one thing has escaped me. How did Bush/Cheney use Joe’s report to help their case for war?
And hello, Ambassador Wilson!
Jay at 102 — No, President Bush would be the President unless and until the impeachment was finalized. Just as President Clinton remained President through the proceedings that were instituted against him while he was in office.
What are the real chances of impeachment of Cheney? Would any repubs go along?
Elizabeth de la Vega @ 100
Interesting. I wonder if one or t’other would resign and a new veep be appointed. Hmm, needs Congressional approval, unless the Patriot Act has another surprise in it. So, President Nancy?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 106
My bag, of course, but it would be very interesting…Air Force One all gassed up and ready to go to Paraquay…
On BookTV with CSPAN I found your review of the timeline outstanding and to have it in Garrison Keellers bookstore with him standing next to you certainly lended a bit of the wise old bird to the moment.
I see over at Raw Story they’re breaking the news that Cheney WILL testify at Scooter’s trial per a story to run in Monday’s NYT by Scott Shane & Jim Rutenberg.
Despite Cheney’s weakened position I do not envy the jury’s position of having to make judgments on the credibility of the man holding the Office of the VP of the US – a daunting task. With an eye on impeachment, do you see the Decider’s Decider more likely to provide ammo for Impeachment than to cleanse Scooter?
Jay @ 109
And silly me, I’m assuming the impeachment would be successful.
ccmask @ 102
I think that, when you get right down to it, Libby’s main problem in the whole case is that his story — that he learned something from the VP, then forgot it and learned it as if it were entirely new–is inherently incredible. Jurors have a lot of common sense and that story defies common sense.
PR at 107 — The answer to that question truly lies in an examination of what happened with Nixon and why. Public opinion must grow sufficiently strong that members of Congress cannot ignore it — or to a point that they know to ignore it could mean something catastrophic to their own political careers. THAT is the point where you see action onsomething of this magnitude with the current crop of elected officials. Whether this or any other meaningful oversight or accountability goes forward is up to all of us. Every single one of us — making a statement that we expect accountability. And we expect it now.
I fear that the Bush Administration may be just trying to “run the clock out”…and if they take this out into the 2008 election cycle it may simply be that people will say “What the hell! Why bother!”
But I think that it’s critical that Impeachment Proceedings begin and continue EVEN if the term of the President and VP appears to be imminently ending.
For one thing Impeachment of Bush would be an important blemish…warning future Executives that such acts have consequences.
Bush would be one of three Presidents impeached.
In addition, Congress can actually chose to try and convict after the President leaves office, removing his “emoulements” of office (retirement, Secret Service protection, office space, franking power, public funds for staff, etc.).
These may appear to be minor for someone who is likely to be well-provided by his corporate sponsors over the rest of his life…but politically its important for the US to demonstrate that we ARE a land of laws!
Bush would be the first President actually CONVICTED! THAT would give a formidable signal to future officials that messing with the Constitution has serious historical consequences.
Don’t let the “run out the clock argument” prevail!
Audrey @ 99
This is a really good one
Thanks CHS. Ms.De Le Vega have read and enjoyed your writing at tomdispatch. thank you
Christy Hardin Smith @ 111
I completely agree!!!
Elizabeth, is there a possibility that a state can get the impeachment ball rolling?
Thanks so much for being here today, Elizabeth. The book is an amazing achievement and we really appreciate you stopping by to discuss it.
Elizabeth—it’s great to have you here today. I look forward to seeing you in Seattle on the 21st.
Is there a more detailed list of your upcoming appearances than the one at Seven Stories?
Ambassador Wilson, always a great honor to have you on an FDL thread.
Exactly, John in Sacramento. That’s where I first learned of the book. His newsletter is also where I first learned of FDL. Quite a while ago. :)
greetings…let’s just call this a “gut” check…when I saw the Towers fall, I had the same sick feeling in my gut back on 11-22-63.
This is a nightmare scenario that is coming to a climax. So sad…
Jane,
Thank YOU and Christy for inviting me and for providing this amazing public forum. It’s a lot of fun to participate, although it’s not easy keeping up with the pace!
cinnamonape at 114 — I do think that you get hints of that “running out the clock” strategy each and every time President Bush makes one of those “another Administration” comments about things being done in Iraq. He’s clearly trying to bide his time and not have to make any real decisions about his abysmal failures while he’s still in the White House. Just like every other mess the man has ever made, he’s going to leave it for someone else to have to clean it up for him.
BobbyFrisby @ 123
This time we don’t stop until we get real answers.
Ambassador Wilson, I hope that there will be justice in the case involving Libbey, although I also hope that more of the people responsible are indicted
While watching you on BookTV today, I was struck by your description of the reasons you took up this consuming project, not to mention the time, effort, and expertise it required.
Seems to me you personify the “Citizen Journalism” that is perhaps America’s best hope of learning the truth and restoring the primacy of our Constitution.
Thank you.
RBG at 118- I’m looking forward to seeing you in Seattle as well. I will have to get the Seven Stories website updated. They are a small press, so we have to rely a lot on grassroots marketing.
Elizabeth de la Vega @ 124
Not to worry! You are keeping up in an amazing fashion. You must be an extremely fast typist and reader- and quick on the uptake.
Valley Girl @ 128
Do you get restroom breaks here?
Darn! I just finished watching Elizabeth on CSPAN and she was great as usual!
The book is fascinating and I’ve already sent copies to my elected officials, I suggest others do the same, esp. those in the red states :)
For anyone who missed today’s online book salon, if you are in the San Jose area, Elizabeth will be presenting her book at a (free!) wine/cheese/ book salon at my restaurant in Willow Glen, next Sunday Feb 18th at 2:00. Please stop in for a glass of wine, some cheese and a fun afternoon with Elizabeth. Hope to finally meet some of you in person :)
Vin Santo, 1346 Lincoln Avenue, San Jose
susan
Betsy at 132 — You take whatever break you need — the guest gets to take her time. ;-)
I am very proud to talk to you, Ambassador Wilson. You have stood up, when so many others have quaked, and sold their souls…Don’t let them get away with this, because it will lead to so much more revelation on how truly dark these people are.
Thank you for writing this book. I watched you on Cspan; you are a charming and effective speaker. I hope your book tour brings you coast to coast!
Joe Wilson
Have a lawsuit against the VP?
Thanks. Good luck-
Valetta at 130- Yes, Susan has been kind enough to host this afternoon at her restaurant and I would love to meet any of you there.
Thanks Susan!
Christy Hardin Smith @ 125
I don’t think he’s really worried about what happens in 2008. Even if ‘our’ team wins in 2008, a lot of ‘our’ team seems to get the ball in ‘their’ goal most of the time. I expect business as usual when he is gone unless we are really adamant *and* we sharpen our tools, eg, free internet and honestly-counted votes. No politician has to fear us ordinary folks if (when) those are gone.
valletta at 133 — Darn! Wish I were in the San Jose area — that sounds lovely.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 114
That’s where this book is a great service. We had to get the public past the idea that impeachment is unthinkable and educate people about the fact that it is a constitutional right, even a “duty.” Simply saying the “I” word helped. Now with the book it is fleshed out in expert fashion so we non-lawyers can arm ourselves for the fight.
Just pass Condi a note… (referring to that infamous photo…)
Mommy! Are we there yet? (Pit stop time…)
Furthermore WRT our subjugation as co-opted concubines of conservatism…
DickBru continues to thumb his nose. He doesn’t need clothes. He just wants to screw us and our fang-free institutions of insouciant oversight.
Oh, GFY..
Playin’ chicken with America, eh?
GabrielOak @ 102
Perception without reasoned response is unthinkable. Impeachment is warranted and essential if we want to continue under the rule of law vs. the rule of kings, imho.
Jay @ 119
Section 603 of Thomas Jefferson’s Manual for rules of Impeachment Proceedings
Christy Hardin Smith @ 123
I agree that is what the president is trying to do, which is why “time is of the essence” as they say in contracts law. I also wanted to offer a thought to all of you which is that I’ve noticed in my short book tour thus far that there are many people who are hungry to talk about and take action regarding this administration who are not frequent internet users.
Anybody have any ideas as to how to reach out to them?
Elizabeth de la Vega @ 130
No one will ever know. :~)
I just put this book into my shopping cart at Amazon and I can’t wait to read it. I happened to check the top review. Somebody should knock it down a few pegs. It says:
..it is convincing in precisely the way hearing one side of a legal argument always is – which is to say, it’s persuasive until one considers the other side. In this case, a consideration of the other side reveals just how incredibly weak the case for impeachment is, and how deluded the wishful-thinkers like this author are.
Elizabeth de la Vega @ 144
Takes $$$, but full page ads in well circulated newspapers. I’ll chip in!
Elizabeth de la Vega @ 101
We could do that and call it “regime change”!
Elizabeth at 145 — I was thinking through civic groups and such, but which ones and how to best do that? No idea.
Ms de la Vega:
Thanks for your exceptional efforts, both in your op-eds and in your book, for shedding a powerful light on the fraudulent and illegal activities that have characterized this Administration, particularly the Iraq disaster.
We should by all means keep the pressure on our representatives in Congress to hold this Administration to account. Equally, however, I would ask that we have some empathy for the position in which our representatives find themselves. The mainstream media, to an outrageous extent, still find the points of view expressed here “extreme”. That more ink and airspace were devoted to Nancy Pelosi’s military transport than to the criminal trial of the former Chief of Staff to the Vice President is stunning. Worse, the MSM is already busy regurgitating administration “talking points” on Iran despite their self-evidently suspect nature (e.g., we’ve been largely fighting Sunni insurgents in Iraq, highly unlikely to have been supplied by Iran).
With these formidable disinformation weapons arrayed against them, it is very difficult for the Democrats to shift public opinion sufficiently to make impeachment a viable political option. We should all be clear that the objective is the removal of Cheney and Bush from office — that requires 67 votes in the Senate. At the moment, the Democrats have possibly two Republican votes, and of course do not have Lieberman’s. So there’s still a steep hill to climb here, and casting aspersions on the courage of our representatives tends to reinforce the familiar right-wing meme about “cowardly”, “soft” Democrats.
So Congressional hearings that bring wider public recognition of the fraud and illegality (that most folks here are already familiar with) are still essential to lay a foundation for public opinion. Impeachment is never “off the table” if the case has been made for it — thanks to the efforts of Ms de la Vega and many of the contributors here (the FDLers, EW, etc) the word is getting out, but we still have much hard work ahead.
What about prosecution after they leave office?
Ann in AZ at 149 — Mwahahaha. Snarky.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 153
Snarky? I call it genius!
This is only tangential to the discussion, but the WaPo introduces another entirely credulous article on Iranian arms killing US troops, this time from more anonymous sources within the Green Zone, without mentioning what the British have had to say about the subject, or the more skeptical LA Times article last week, nor does it distinguish between the acts of arms smugglers and official state arms supply….
It’s happening again.
“I agree that is what the president is trying to do, which is why “time is of the essence” as they say in contracts law. I also wanted to offer a thought to all of you which is that I’ve noticed in my short book tour thus far that there are many people who are hungry to talk about and take action regarding this administration who are not frequent internet users.
Anybody have any ideas as to how to reach out to them?”
This is one of the most creative crowds I’ve ever seen. Good question.
A bit of guerrilla marketing: Print out some of the excerpts and leave them in strange places..like busstops, Doctor’s offices, in the bottom of the shopping cart. :)
Ok. How about someone writing a review and submitting it to local newspapers? Many of the smaller publications are hungry for well-written pieces. Just a thought. Many more little things can be done to get the word out, I’m sure.
just finished watching you on cspan – it was great – i thought it was interesting that your biggest problem in writing the book was that you had too much evidence – any plans for a follow-up book?
As things now stand- impeachment is about as likely as GWB winning the Nobel prize for literature.
Does he deserve to be impeached? Hell yes- but the votes aren’t there- and won’t be there unless things change dramatically in a very short period of time. It would take a monumental revelation- beyond anything we currently know about to turn the impeachment issue around..
Christy Hardin Smith @
95
Christy and Elizabeth – here is a link I found by way of Raw Story to the full text (in the International Herald Tribune) of the story about Dick Cheney’s possible appearance as a defense witness: http://www.iht.com/articles/20…..cheney.php
Betsy — Thank you so much for coming to discuss your book with everyone today. This has been such a great discussion!
Folks, I am going to have to sign off here, but I will check back later and try to respond to questions that have not been answered. The only thing better than chatting online with a group of smart, funny and well-informed people such as yourselves would be chatting in person. I hope you will check the schedule at Seven stories and stop by to see me if I’m in your area.
Best regards,
Elizabeth a/k/a Betsy de la Vega
Stephen at 158 — Thanks so much for the link. Will take a peek.
Thank you.
Does Jane think she could really remain seated if she were face to face with Cheney in the courtroom? :)
Elizabeth de la Vega @ 143
You on TV. I saw you at a friend’s place, one of her housemates was watching you, no idea what show. You looked so calm and sensible and it was like, “Of *course* it’s possible to impeach the Pres!” It just seemed so non-crazy and inevitable when you answered all the questions so matter of factly.
Your books, obviously, and the book-signings and stuff. But that’s probably not going to get tons of new people. But if people who read your book then have, for instance, an impeachment party? a meet-up or lunch or get-together, to talk about the idea and get involved in their own time, place and way.
Marches and demonstrations, not so much, they are time-consuming, expensive and easily ignored nowadays. But I am liking the idea of camping out at elected reps district offices.
Work at lower levels. I have always believed that if you want something done, go to the secretary, not the boss, and so to a small business rather than a big outfit. So meeting with, talking to, etc. Congresscritter’s staffers directly would probably get more action than writing to the Congresscritter him/herself. I mean, they ignore *tons*of mail. Also, going to local and state govts, they may be more responsive to local outrage and less in the pocket of K Street and BigBiz. Or at least in different pockets.
PR @ 152
I too have a moment which sticks in my mind. I think it goes to intent. It is from a news comference in Crawford about 3 weeks before 911. Bush was asked under what circumstances he would dip into the SS trust fund. He said in the event of a recession or War. The way he said war was almost as if he was planning one.
I have questioned his use of the term War and would have used national crisis or emergency myself. Beside knowing where my retirement has gone, I think it is a Freudian slip which butresses the case that they planned this all along.
I can dig out the link on the WH website if you wish. It was around August 24, 2001
Elizabeth – I guess I’m an alarmist but I just don’t see Bush and Cheney leaving office – period. Too many crimes, too many secrets, too much that will be exposed/destroyed with a democratic administration – especially if a democratic Congress goes with it. And they’ve worked too long and too diligently to get their operatives into every single nook and cranny there is.
Do you think it’s possible they could do something drastic – like a terror attack in order to impose martial law? Or do you see them stealing the election to make sure a republican is in the White House to protect them and continue their reign of terror?
How much of a danger do you think Bush/Cheney see in a democratic being elected President in 2008?
Last question, promise! This is from section 603 of T Jefferson’s Impeachment manual that you cited above. Am I reading this right? Does this mean it takes only ONE member of the House to ’set an impeachment in motion’?
Thank you for this, you have made us a nice impeachment kit, it it up to us to mix it up.
Jay @ 164
Christy Hardin Smith @ 150
Get them on the internet and away from the MSM. Via FDL! (The Modern Pamphleteers.)
Says G.O.:
HotFlash @ 167
OMG, I didn’t read all the way down. It says ‘or a grand jury.’ Be still, my beating heart!
Thanks, FDL and Ms. de la Vega for this excellent and timely forum. USvBush et al. will be at the top of my never-clearing reading list.
Regarding the central premise that the Bush Administration brought a fraudulent case before the American people to secure authorization for its war in Iraq: could that history, even without court of law, be used by Congress to require that the so-called evidence against Iran that is currently being bandied about be brought before it to substantiate the claim, which I think the Adnimistration is trying to set up, that action against Iran is justified to protect the U.S. troops in Iraq? Could Congress do that by legislation?
I’m asking because I read John Dean’s account of the Senate Judiciary hearing last week. There, a panel of legal experts basically said that a major action in Iran would require a new AUMF; but several also said that they thought, I guess you could say, that if Iran extended the theater first, that Bush could respond to that extension without a new AUMF. So the new tactic seems to be to make it seem as if …
elizabeth – thanks for the book
watch this impeachment vid
elizabeth – thanks for the book
watch this impeachment vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr8k8WHTzN0
everhopeful @ 165
This worries me a lot too. To all appearances, they have already stolen two elections–whether or not they actually had anything to do with 9/11. Staging a terror attach to declare martial law does not seem beyond the realm of possibility.
I worry about the Bush regime never leaving office too. Remember Paul Bremer’s title while he was running the CPA? He was called the Viceroy.
Or the viceroy of Iraq. The problem is, we don’t have a soverign. The question is, do Bush and Cheney know that?
Ok. HotFlash, now you’ve done it.
“OMG, I didn’t read all the way down. It says ‘or a grand jury.’ Be still, my beating heart!”
I already have so many fantasies about where the Fitz investigation might lead…all the “wouldn’t it be wonderful if…s” they are starting to pile up! ;)
Glad you mentioned it, though.
Read the article referenced above re Cheney testifying, nothing new. Just litany of downside vs upside.
Good article, though.
BTW, If any Californians have any question whether they can do something about this?
The answer is YES. You can do something
Contact your Assembly Person and have them support Assemblyman Paul Koretz’s joint resolution AJR 39 that calls for the impeachment of pResident Bush and Vice pResident Cheney
After you call, email or send a letter, sign this petition
Christy has a new thread upstairs- good books
Ms. de la Vega,
Thanks so much for your much needed work!
These comments from the FDL folks and you have been fascinating.
I was struck by this statement from you:
You’re right- and the problem is, as Christy mentioned, we seem to have come to accept it. People find it hard to believe that it is actually illegal for executive branch officials to lie to the public and Congress to get congress to take action. In fact, we have higher standards and expectations for weight loss product advertising!
What are the laws that make lieing illegal beyond perjury, which I assumed had only to
do with a trial setting. Is that illegality criminal or civil? Who would have standing to take legal action against such lieing? Are there standards of magnitude that trigger particiular prosecutorial actions? And at what level of the courts would legal action be taken. I had presumed federal, but I was struck by the headline of last night’s article: “Mr. Fitzgerald, do you have jurisdiction in state courts(?)” ( I actually did not read the article article, but assumed that he didn’t. Could the city/state level actions to move to impeachment be sufficient to trigger/demand congressional action?
The thing that kept striking me over the week of Libby testimony was the humonguous financial and personal costs that have been incurred because of the lies; and therefore all the more essential to proceed with impeachment and beyond that to criminal prosecution for the lies resulting in THEFT and MURDER of the treasury and lives.
Lord knows I know nothing about the law, but these are curiousities that come to mind.
Blessings and thanks to you, Ms. de la Vega, Christy and all the FDL leader/writers and the broader community.
new thread http://www.firedoglake.com/200…../#comments
Meanwhile on the Saudi side of the border….Saudi Minister says they will support Sunni militias
Saudis Providing Money for Insurgent Weapons
Better start working on the sequel.
The same people who lied us into war against Iraq are filling the media with their propaganda against Iran.
Can they be stopped?
egregious @ 183
How fast can we impeach? I think we’d better hustle our bustles on this.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 35
What if they and their families were threatened, as with anthrax 6 years ago? What if they were threatened with the loss of the primary city in their district? We are dealing with criminals who have real wmd.
TheOtherWA @
177
You’re right TOW, except about the sovereigns, because we do have sovereigns, only they aren’t who/m Bush and Cheney think they are.
They are us
Thanks for this great thread. I happened to catch Ms de la Vega yesterday. Actually, I cleaned house by CSPAN-2 yeasterday afternoon.
As a former federal prosecutor, would your standard for bringing a conspiracy charge against, oh let’s say a sitting VP, have to be higher? If so how high? In other words, is there such a thing as “going to far?”
That is why Fitzgerald’s state months ago about CONSPIRACY are so critical. Nixon was busted– as in the mass public saw what had gone done– and so to may this regime.
DeanOR @ 142
LJ @ 191
Hence the catchy nom de plume.
Thanks, Betsy! Your book is incredibly well written and Christy’s description that it was infuriatingly readable is right on. I think we Americans have been so inured to lying and secrecy by our government officials that we’ve basically lost the hope that we will ever bring these monsters to justice. Your book brings us hope that it will be possible to make them pay for their crimes.
I’m so glad you are getting more TV time too because that is where the broad American public gets their news.
Oklahoma is one of maybe two states that has its own impeachment mechanism via grand jury. per state law. Jerry Pippin who has a radio show has been circulating a petition since last year to convene a grand jury for that purpose. It doesn’t have enough signatories as yet. http://www.petitiononline.com/…..ition.html
Christy Hardin Smith @ 150
I know that broadband has opened my eyes and I tell everyone to get it…. high speed internet should be free, like tv “used” to be…. to facilitate citizens’ brainstorming of our democracy. Like tonight!
Thank you Ms. de la Vega for being here and most importantly for the hard work and sacrifice you made to generate this important resource.
I hate to be cold water here, but I don’t think it is so much the Administration trying to run down the clock; that’s to a certain extent both obvious and expected. The real issue is the Congress running the time out. Ach, I wish it weren’t so, but our trusty congresscritters who we put in to stop these people don’t want to spend their “political capital” on this. Dems probably hope to do more effective pushback on the policies if they set accountability aside.
It really is up to us. We understand the damage to our national honor, reputation, law and posterity that flows forward from this Presidency into the future as a result of a passive acceptance of its criminal behavior. Our understanding became our motivational force; it can with others too – if we rub their noses in it, pronto!
“Please be polite…” Gee Christy, is it usual for FDL commenters to be rude to undeserving contributors? Feel like mom is watching me. Kinda weird feeling for 51, if you know what I mean.
Let’s just say farang is positive that Cheney is the Maestro of 9/11/01. The one that turned PNAC wet dreams of Iraq/Middle East invasion/domination into Israel’s orgasm.
And that I wish fervently for the day when Cheney is asked, under oath, WTF he meant when “the young officer” came and went numerous times into the war room of the White House Bunker, and told Cheney the “plane is 40 miles out”, “the plane is 20 miles out”, “the plane is 10 miles out, do the orders still stand?”, and the War Criminal and Traitor replied: “Did you hear orders to the contrary?” THAT my friends, is on video. Norman Mineta gave the testimony, then was forced to resign by the White House.
WTF does THAT MEAN?????? LET THE PLANE HIT????
What else could it mean?