[After enjoying his comments for the last few years on FDL and at Next Hurrah, we are thrilled to welcome Jeff to the front page of FDL. Welcome, Jeff! And a huge note of thanks for this brilliant, satirical artwork above to The Candorville Courier. Made me laugh out loud this morning. -- CHS]
I am very pleased to have the chance to guest post here in the midst of the very best Plame bloggers. I may have higher regard for the Washington press corps than a lot of people who post here, but there can be no question that the liveblogging that the incomparable Marcy Wheeler and Swopa, bloggers with a fuller, closer understanding of the case than any reporter could possibly have, have been doing is itself an event, as Rick Perlstein recently pointed out.
I have always been interested in the CIA leak case less because of who would end up being charged with crimes than what it would enable us to learn about the response of the Bush administration to the searing controversy over the prewar intel in summer 2003 and, beyond that, about how the administration mounted its public justification for war in the first place back in late 2002-early 2003. This matters for at least two reasons: because factual truth is both a powerful tool in politics, and one that is easily crushed and therefore that requires vigorous defense; and because it may help us to stop future disasters of the kind that the Bush administration’s conduct of the Iraq war has been.
It’s clear that Libby’s trial will not give us a complete picture of what happened; but it is certainly adding considerably to our knowledge. It is fun to watch numerous rightwing talking points both about Patrick Fitzgerald’s investigation and about the dispute over prewar intel in July 2003 crumble as evidence in the case becomes public. My favorite amusing just-disclosed evidence is an internal email from the Office of the Vice President from September 2003, just as the investigation was being announced and initiated, that gives the lie to one of the rightwing’s talking points in defense of the administration and of Karl Rove in particular: that they were not really leaking – that Rove did not really leak to both Bob Novak and Matt Cooper – because the reporters called them, not the other way around. Here is Libby’s aide Jennifer Mayfield emailing Cheney press aide Cathie Martin about some things Libby wanted to make sure Martin saw (from ABC’s The Note):
And we really don’t like to fight with Bob Novak – besides being a fellow journalist and Terps fan, he is our hero.
But we don’t understand why
1. Bob thinks it matters that he was told the name of Wilson’s wife in a conversation he initiated, as he claimed yesterday. It is a classic political hit strategy, Bob, to take the call from the reporter, and work the negative information into the call.
This is, of course, just what Rove did with both Novak and Cooper. And it is what Libby did with Matt Cooper, after strategizing with Vice President Cheney. Never mind that the more significant leak from Libby to Judith Miller on July 8 took place at a meeting arranged by Libby himself, at the behest of Cheney and, to some extent, of President Bush himself.
There are also more significant disclosures from the evidence, and they amply illustrate that OVP was incapable of refraining from mixing much falsehood and twisted information with the elements of truth that bolstered its case in summer 2003. To take but one example, they repeated, as a chief talking point, a falsehood that Wilson reported that an Iraqi delegation had traveled all the way to Niger in 1999 just to discuss expanding commercial relations – clearly code, Libby was still arguing before the grand jury, for purchasing uranium. They sought to show, of course, that Wilson’s own report supported the administration’s case, and that therefore Wilson was a snake, as Mary Matalin put it with so much class.
In fact, however, there is no such assertion in the trip report from Wilson’s mission, as one can see from the copies of it, replete with vigorous underlining by Libby, entered into evidence at the trial. Instead, there was a much more casual meeting on the sidelines of an Organization of African States meeting in the middle of 1999 – a meeting where, once again, there was not one word spoken about uranium. That’s not much in the way of vigorous pursuit – which is why, furthermore, Wilson’s information was not in fact included as evidence for the October 2002 NIE’s claim about Iraq’s pursuit of uranium abroad, contra another suggestion Libby repeatedly sought to make. This is ground that eRiposte has been tilling to great effect for a while. What is new is to see just how central it was to OVP’s pushback against Wilson.
Perhaps most depressingly, this talking point continued to live on, to the point that it was repeated in the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence’s report on prewar intelligence, including by none other than one of the CIA debriefers who produced the report based on Wilson’s trip which made no such assertion, as well as by CIA and DIA analysts! (It’s on p. 46 of the report.)
The failures of the SSCI point to the need to revisit its treatment of the prewar intelligence. But the points I made in opening – about vigorously insisting on factual truth in politics on past events and present ones – are also nicely illustrated by two important developments today.
The first is the release of another report on the prewar twisting of intelligence, this one the Defense Department’s Inspector General’s report on the Office of Special Plans, which was located in Doug Feith’s Policy shop in the Pentagon. All signs point to a vigorous effort by Feith and his allies to whitewash the illicit intelligence activities of the OSP. We can’t let that happen.
The second is the step taken by Secretary of Defense Robert Gates today to further assert the administration’s case for the nefarious role of Iran in Iraq. The public case-making has been delayed several times, and we have yet to see the evidence. When we do, we must pay careful attention both to its quality and to the way it is being used, and ask questions such as why the evidence gathered in the arrest of several Iranians in a December raid of Abdul Aziz al-Hakim’s compound in Baghdad, initially declared a smoking gun, appears to have been pulled back altogether. And we must ask whether the Bush administration’s outlook on Iran-in-Iraq was changed by the retreat from that evidence; if not, it means the intelligence, even the true intelligence, is being fixed around the policy once again. And if we are not vigorous about this, we are sure to end up in yet another disaster of the Bush administration’s making.
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Good morning.
Thanks for the welcome, and all the help and patience, Christy and Mr. Mod!
Jeff — You are most welcome. :)
Welcome, Jeff.
Now I’ll go read your post.
The Mayfield-to-Martin email — can you link to the whole thing? What’s the date on it?
Second, I still don’t understand about all the evidence that was stipulated into the record at the end of yesterday — does that mean that they found the annotated Cheney op-ed in a safe? (Wouldn’t that sorta kinda be obstruction?)
Christy said she’d try to run it down yesterday (a 402, I think?) but is there any more news on this?
Have to pass on an email I received from a friend in Austin. During Molly Ivin’s memorial service there were 200 women outside beating pots and pans! You’ll remember she called for that, amongst many other possibilites for shaking up the country, in her last column.
Jeff in the house!
I am such a fan!
I love love love the exchanges you and Mrcy have at TNH
Glad to see you swimming in the lake
Do we as commenters receive a little ‘merit badge’ or somethin’ for refraining to add OT comments or refreshing every few moments during this historic unveiling of the most corrupt adminstration in the history of this country, or what?
Damn good post Jeff.
Very interesting read. It seems you have done a lot of homework!~.
One small typo towards the end .
I think should be, IF not.
mk @
5
Nope. It doesn’t matter where he kept it, as long as he turned it over when it was requested. Keeping op-ed articles in a safe is creepy and weird, but it’s not illegal.
mk @ 5
The Mayfield-to-Martin email is part of GX2A, the exhibits that accompanied the second part of Libby’s grand jury testimony. The email is toward the very end of the multi-part exhibit; it’s Grand Jury Exhibit 71, Bates Number 3754.
As for the stipulated evidence, as far as I know we still don’t know exactly what item it is that Swopa referred to as 402 – the government released an exhibit numbered 403 yesterday, which was Libby’s underlined copy of the Wilson op-ed, but no 402. My sense, following emptywheel, is that the point of the stuff about the safe was just to verify the document or something like that; no intimations of funny business.
I see that the “Scooter may not call Veep” talking point is finally making it into the MSM. Duh. The last thing Scooter needs right now is the phrase “shot in the face” being tossed around his trial.
looseheadprop @ 7
Back atcha.
There is a big theme going around that Russert cared more about protecting his sources than informing the public – and yes this is true. Happily, FDL and other recognized this and it is getting into national media outlets.
But FDL and others need to go beyond this and point out that Russert and others in the elite Washington media protected only REPUBLICAN sources. For the Clintons, they are only too happy to repeat any foolish nonsense cooked up by obviously partisan hitmen.
It lets Russert off the hook too easily to pretend anything else. In fact, I think the reason that Miller, Russert and others didn’t report on this signals that they knew Libby was treading on really thin ice.
If it had been a Democrat that leaked this, Russert would have been all over it.
Sorry, I didn’t think Molly was ever OT.
gates has the nerve to say this;
“At the same time, however, he said he was somewhat surprised that recent raids by coalition and Iraqi forces in Iraq swept up some Iranians.
“
hey mister gates, here’s a news flash for you;
if we attack Iran there will be MORE Iranians involved with Iraqi insurgents
tough to figure that one out?
moron
looseheadprop @
7
Seconded.
Frank at 10 — I e-mailed a couple of courthouse sources. Gov’t exhibit #402 was not entered into evidence yesterday. I’m working up a list of what has been, and will have more on that when I can get it completed.
christy, I tried emailing to your posted address and it didn’t go through
Gang — we’re not liveblogging today, so the bandwidth issues aren’t as crucial as when we are. As always, on topic comments are much appreciated, but, frankly, I’ve never found Molly Ivins to be off topic either. :)
perris at 19 — That’s odd. Did you spell it as ReddHedd AT firedoglake DOT com. (With the all caps as the symbols they ought to be?) A lot of times it doesn’t go through because people misspell ReddHedd.
Let me add my welcome to some of the others. I usually follow your comments on EW’s posts at thenexthurrah. It is great to see the wider exposure they will get. Thanks once again from Greece to all those associated with the site here.
Christy Hardin Smith @
21
I used the @ and a .
I’ll try again right now, let me know if you get anything
It’s important to push on how flimsy their Iran intelligence is (just like with Iraq), but it’s also important to push back on the idea that if Iran is supplying arms to anyone in Iraq, the only solution is to declare war on Iran.
Even if everything they’re saying is true (fat chance!), it still doesn’t make it in our national interest to start a war. That is the other thing that needs to be demanded at every turn, so that we’re not just fighting this on their turf — “How would this war serve our national interests?”
Ahh, finally — the chance to pick apart a post by Jeff, the way he usually does mine!!
Oh, but wait… this is a really, really good post. Crap! There’s nothing to pick apart, dammit. Life is so unfair. :-(
Awesome find on that Mayfield email. I’ll have to start poring though the exhibits to see what other nuggets there are.
And I’m glad people are hunting for exhibit 402. That was why I boldfaced that info in the live-blogging.
The most important effort to peel back what happened in the lead up to Iraq and keep the same thing from happening with Iran is to remove Dick Cheney from office as quickly as possible. He deserves impeachment (since I doubt he’ll ever resign) for the good of our country. Cheney has set a tone where towing his GOP line is more important than an objective view of our national interest (i.e. the Gregg amendment and debate votes in the Senate).
Please, let’s begin a serious effort to remove Cheney from office immediately.
Swopa @ 25
LOL!
I already picked the only nit.
John Casper @
17
Thirded!
ESaund @ 14
I know this is going to get me in trouble here, but I’m going to dissent from this a little bit. Russert is not particularly to my taste, but you can frequently learn a lot from his show that you otherwise wouldn’t be able to. Also, I don’t think he’s particularly partisan, and certainly no partisan hack. I do think there are ways that Democrats and Republicans get different treatment among the elite DC media, though that may be changing a little. But I wouldn’t go this far.
For my part, I think it’s worthwhile distinguishing the criticism of Russert from the attack mounted by the defense, which in effect ends up attacking the First Amendment. I’ve got no problem with what Russert did in the investigation, including fighting the subpoena in defense of a wider principle even after he’d talked, to some unknown extent though not very much, it seems, to the FBI.
Here’s CNN helping the Bush Administration make the case for a move against Iran:
While most of us were on our best behavior during this week’s live blog, the collective pent up energy seems to have manifested itself this morning.
Short-ish comments, with a link to more detail, are a wise use of bandwidth and much appreciated by your ever-helpful moderators.
Thanks.
Redshift @ 24
I pretty much agree with this, and tried to at least gesture at the point at the end of my post. Though I’m not sure I’d want to endorse the national interest as the only possible justification for a war, it it certainly an important one. And the point is that even if, as one has to presume, Iran is doing various nefarious activities in Iraq, that doesn’t answer the separate question of what to do about it.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 21
CHS — one reading of your #21 might be that the R and H in your name are significant. You prolly were referring just to the AT and the DOT. To disambiguate if needed — In my experience, CaPITalizATion makes no difference in email addresses. I.e., MOONbat@FooBAR.coM will go to the same emailbox as moonbat@FooBAR.COm , assuming that moonbat can get email there. However, email with the addy moonbatt@foobar.com will bounce if there’s no emailbox for moonbatt at foobar.com . There’s some more geekiness in there but let’s take that as readd. :)
——
And of course, welcome, Fred! I look fwd to reading more of you here.
My apologies for this being
totally OT, but I got a real kick out of Doonsbury today.
He gets it.
http://www.uclick.com/client/wpc/db/
welcome, Jeff
“Please, let’s begin a serious effort to remove Cheney from office immediately”
Double-Dog Ditto on that one. What’s it take to get that ball rolling, can Conyers re-direct the Bushy impeachment movement long enough to take out the real puppeteer, and THEN lets remove the puppet, which will be pretty limp without old Deadeye’s hand buried up it’s hole.
A Cheney impeachment would end this Chinese water torture, bring Rove, Feith, Matalin, et al under the microscope, and would provide the wounded MSM a wonderful venue to exact revenge for their embarrassment.
…speaking of water torture, hasn’t the administration approved waterboarding to be used for extracting information from unwilling witnesses?
Might we apply it to our own courtroom questioning?
Or is that only in Iraq or Egypt or Italy??
Just a thought… I mean, as long as its considered legal, a few minutes underwater on the board might loosen-up some neo-tongues.
Just kidding… sorta.
A minor detail from the last thread but still on topic here. Reports of Iranian serial numbers on some weapons and munitions found in Iraq mean almost nothing.
The missiles that are being used to shoot down American helicopters probably originated in some country like Romania. They could be carrying Romanian serial numbers. This does not mean that Romania is trying to shoot down American helicopters.
This is one of the reasons that the military has been more hesitant to draw a direct link to the Iranians, when and if some Iranian weapons show up here and there in Iraq.
When you think of how awash Iraq was after the Second Gulf War in weapons and munitions and how unsecured these all were by us, it really strains the imagination to think the Iranians would send or feel the need to send more of these into Iraq. It would be like shipping coal to Newcastle, or to update the allusion, snow to Oswego, New York.
Christy,
Reading through your “Guess It All Depends On What The Meaning Of “Illegal” Is…” essay from this morning, I caught the term “Intel Chop Shop’ you used to describe the Office of Special Plans. Perfect!
Maybe retired USAF LTC Karen Kwiatkowski should be thanked for bringing the chop shop out from under its rock back in 2003.
That’s all good, but personally I found most of those tidbits rather mundane. I was more interested in the report the Administration received four days before the SOTU, essentially recapitulating and expanding on the NIE. Specifically:
Reports indicate Iraq also has sought uranium ore from Somalia and possibly the Democratic Republic of the Congo.
Kinda blows the “debunked” theory, eh? I was also interested to note the tasker with the “question” Cheney asked was dated Feb 13, 2002 . . . the day after Plame recommended Wilson for the Iraq trip. Which appears to’ve sunk the “behesting” bit as well.
Jeff,
Congratulations on the post.
Not sure if this was already answered, but what was the deal with the 402 document that appeared in a safe that only two people had the combination to?
Swopa @ 25
Note that the post is updated to clarify one thing I left unclear – the Mayfield email was showing Martin things, including the bit I quoted, from The Note.
As for 402, was the business about the safe just a question about custody of the doc and verifying it?
With the press obsessing over Anna Nicole and the diapered astronut, it is frightening to consider what foul smelling news this maladministration might push out into Friday’s gloaming.
Oops, forgot the *g*, keep on keepin’ on! Politics TV wrapups at the end of the day are so excellent.
S.O.S. in MA @ 33
Correct. Capitalization makes no difference in an email address. FYI, capitalization also makes no differenced in an url for anything in the domain name portion of the URL.
Case DOES matter for anything RIGHT of the first ‘/’
In the butchered URL below:
http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/vigorous-pur
Case doesn’t matter in http://wWw.FireDogLake.COm
If you typed in the url and put /Vigorous-pur/ you aint gonna get what you want.
“I was an Internet junky back when it was all lower case.” – Me, ca. 1994
An impeachment of Cheney is the best way to keep the momentum from the Libby trial going.
Step 1 – It’s a great topic for Meet The Press on Sunday don’t you think? Anybody know Tim Russert? (Come on, the whole Kevin Bacon Six Degress thing…)
Step 2 – Which members of the GOP are best to get the ball rolling? How ’bout that guy he shot in the face?
Balrog @ 41
Never mind. Jeez, getting old is difficult sometimes…
The Bush family autocracy must be brought to an end. It would be just like this spoiled brat of a prez to attack Iran and leave it to the Dems to figure a way out of the mess. This family’s dirty little tentacles run deep. I want my party, the Democrats to tie Bush in knots with investigation, after investigation and inquiry after inquiry.
Gates describes Iraq evidence against Iran
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17064803/
Police: U.S. airstrike kills eight Kurdish troops
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17045824/
Jeff @ 42
The language of the stipulated testimony was very noncommittal (presumably because it was negotiated with the defense).
The facts were that the safe is where they found it, on the date described, and that the secretary who was testifying said she didn’t remember putting it there.
That could imply obstruction if there was an earlier search where it didn’t turn up, and especially if Mayfield (who was supposed to be the only other person with the combination) said she didn’t recall putting it there, either.
Has anyone else noticed something different about the comments and the posts today?
It seems to me that, as of today, we have passed some sort of a milepost, and now we are reaching or have reached a critical mass of information regarding all the lies that brought us into war.
The information about the propaganda techniques and lies that brought our country into Iraq is pouring out faster and faster, and the dots are being connected via past and current reporting, live congressional investigations and ongoing courtroom processes.
A sense of momentum is developing and a comprehensive three-dimensional picture of the Bush administration’s actions in 2002/2003 is taking shape.
We may now be at or past the point in time where the administration has any real power to prevent the whole story from eventually getting to the public.
For some reason, watching the comments and posts here as they build upon one another brick by brick, I think this may have been the day where that point was reached.
Mr. President, we must not allow an intel chop-shop gap!
Could probably use some troll clean up with Cecil Turner back at #39.
Yellowcake btw is a concentrate of the uranium ore and is not pure. It rather goes to the faked nature of the documents. Cheney had questions about Niger from the previous year so the story that Plame approved the trip before Cheney’s question is just bull. I wish Marcy were here. She could and has given the specific dates for all this before, when this question has been raised by visiting wingnuts.
Cecil Turner @ 39
Kinda blows the “debunked” theory, eh? I was also interested to note the tasker with the “question” Cheney asked was dated Feb 13, 2002 . . . the day after Plame recommended Wilson for the Iraq trip. Which appears to’ve sunk the “behesting” bit as well.
Didn’t the Niger-yellow cake business originate from Segreto, the Italian Secret Service, the “foreign government service” above? This has widely been debunked as a fraud.
From Segreto to British Intelligence to US Intelligence.
ya christy, Christy Hardin Smith @ 21
ya, my mail was returned again, it seems your server isn’t allowing mail from my server which is “sprintpcs.com”
I tried a differant mail address, hopefully that one will go through
Nothing less than political annhilation of the Bush family is acceptable. Otherwise this monster will rise again and try its best to swallow us.
I seem to recall many weapons being used to kill in Iraq are those for which there was no U.S. plan to secure after the invasion.
Hugh @ 52:
Oh oh. So I fed a troll? How naive of me. Apologies.
EPU’d:
“The report says Feith did nothing illegal..”
Pentagon prss release: We have investigated ourselves for the 14th time and, for the 14th time, found we have done nothing wrong.
I can’t help wondering if this off-the-record gem came from Scooter:
Read the tasker. Reference the chapter2-b.htm”>SSCI report on the date of Val’s recommendation. Decide for yourself.
The dispute is whether it was debunked by Wilson (and reported to the Administration, and hence evidence they were lying when President Bush referred to African uranium in the SOTU). Obviously if it was reported as fact by the CIA four days before the SOTU, that can’t be true.
JERUSALEM – Israeli police stormed the grounds of Islam’s third-holiest shrine Friday, firing stun grenades and tear gas to disperse thousands of Muslim worshippers who hurled stones, bottles and trash in an eruption of outrage over Israeli renovation work nearby.
I am at once disgusted.
*xyz @ 50:
EPU’d:
From Christy’s thread “The Trouble with Mary” yesterday.
_____
18 Biodun says:
February 8th, 2007 at 9:36 am
Christy:
Thanks for the post. Fantastic piece, and right on the money. The tandem Bush Administration-DC press corps specifically, and extending to US MSM in general: This tandem is now self-destructing.
After this trial, and especially after the way FDL has covered it, and also in light of FDL Team’s research into all the facts before the trial, US MSM will never be the same again. How people get their news in this country has–and will–change forever.
This is a truly historic revolutionary moment. The paradigm has shifted. To borrow a phrase from academia: The politics of the US media signifier has been transformed forever.
______
FWIW, Russert was on Imus this morning and said
Comstock’s Cheney’sScooter’s team was going to call Jill Abramson, Andrea Mitchell, and Bob Woodward among others next week.Hi Jeff,
I’ve been a longtime fan of yours. Good to see you posting now.
Something has always bothered me, and the defense focus on NBC especially Andrea Mitchell only makes me wonder more. Why was there no attention paid to Novak’s statement: “They came to me and they gave me the name”. In case of Armitage he certainly did not go to Novak, nor did he give him the name. And Novak’s article said that Wilson never worked for the CIA – something which I suspect (though do not know for sure) Armitage may not have known.
emptywheel has followed the Novak-Libby angle, but I wish we knew more.
It is interesting that the letter you quote also mentions Novak being told the name. What is the date of this letter (is there a link, I could not find it on ABC “The Note”)?
Biodun @ 57
I think it was the made up intelligence based on more made up intelligence accepted as fact that gave it away. But emptywheel did have a really nice response I read a day or two ago addressing precisely the Cheney-Plame question. It’s lost I’m afraid among hundreds and hundreds of comments.
John Casper @ 63, it is certainly getting better and better. Praise be to Ambassador Wilson for getting this ball rolling.
Can someone, anyone, convince me that the leading candidate for the Democratic nomination for president from my party, Senator Clinton, would work tirelessly, if elected, to achieve peace in the Middle East?
John Casper @ 63
Again, anyone have anything on the judge’s reported problem with the defense calling “defense” witnesses for the sole purposes of impeaching them?
Cecil, where are the 500 tons of yellow cake now?
91351 @ 46
I think that when Scooter is found guilty, there will be enormous pressure to expand the TreasonGate criminal investigation.
I think Fitz has already laid out the evidence that will lead to Shooter’s indictment — evidence that incriminates the entire Bush Administration.
-ck- @ 70
Will Abu Gonzales remove Fitz, like he’s doing with other federal prosecutors deficient in lackey DNA?
_
John Casper @ 69
HERE.
LMAO.
lhp had a great comment earlier today that Abu came within a fraction of removing Fitz back in 2005.
I have to say, I hate myself at the moment. I purchased Valentine’s cards for the kids at The Peanut’s preschool. But I failed to notice that they are “assembly required” cards as I was rushing through the store last week and picked up the boxes. And now, I am sitting here folding and assembling tiny little child-sized candy-filled envelopes, because that is what mommies do. Aiiyeeee! (Sorry Jeff, totally off topic, but I needed to vent in the worst way.)
Can anyone explain how we get beyond the ’super majority’ thing? I’m all ears.
John Casper @ 63
I can’t wait to read the live-blog of Andrea Mitchell’s testimony and cross. Here’s a woman trained in deception. In her book last year she conveniently elided the fact that her first husband was an African-American. She didn’t even mention that she was married before she married Mr. Greenspan.
OT–My apologies.
Re: Anna Nicole and astronaut in diapers: I love that yesterday MSNBC pulled Rita Cosby out of deep freeze to cover the Breaking News Anna Nicole tabloid story. That “life-size blown-up doll” (as an FDLer described her months ago) hadn’t been on air for so long that I thought Dan Abrams had canned her.
John at 73 — LHP is correct. It was the weekend that Gonzales went out to have lunch with Mayor Daly, back in the days when the WH was standing up for him and against the potential Fitz investigation onslaught into bribery for the Daly machine. And then, the verdict on the Gov. Ryan case came in and…Gonzales slinked out of town.
> Could probably use some troll clean
> up with Cecil Turner back at #39.
It is interesting to me that on a dozen or so pivotal liberal blogs these types of comments are now appearing. This is the pattern that occurred during August-November 2004 and (somewhat less so) 2006. The troll posts are well-written and at least moderately subtle. They appear almost simultaneously on at least a dozen blogs under different nyms. And they often follow a consistent three-section format:
[1] Empty praise for some mechanical aspect of the original post
[2] Fairly well-written troll meat with misleading and/or misdirecting conclusion. Sometimes includes links to similar misleading “reference”
[3] Some form of “nice try though” or “too bad – it was a good theory”.
This has to be a deliberate effort.
Cranky
The largest conspiracy in the world can be brought to its knees by the largest supercomputer ever conceived, powered by unending, relentless human determination to get to the truth.
That supercomputer is called the Internet, POWERED BY PATRIOTS, and the thousands of dots that make up the BIG LIE are all being connected.
The truth WILL PREVAIL.
What part will you play?
Don’t be caught criticizing the cybersluths when the crime is solved.
Pick a dot, and connect it to another. Then pick another, and connect it to the first two.
And so on, and so on, and so on.
The power is in your hands.
Sorry if already posted:
Cheney’s Secrecy Fight Reaches a Key Point” An important legal ruling is pending over Vice President Cheney’s refusal to disclose statistics on document classification and declassification activity. The Information Security Oversight Office, which is responsible for the policy and oversight of the government’s security classification system, has asked Attorney General Alberto Gonzales to direct Cheney’s office to disclose these statistics.” (U.S. News & World Report)
Christy Hardin Smith @ 74
You will enjoy the smiles that they will bring!
Cecil B. Deluded
This week’s US decision to create a new Pentagon command covering Africa, known as Africom, has a certain unlovely military logic. Like Roman emperors of old, Washington’s Caesars arbitrarily divide much of the world into Middle Eastern, European and Pacific domains. Now it is Africa’s turn.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl…..97,00.html
OT – did anyone else get this email from Joe and Valerie? They need money, the defendents are stonewalling, etc.:
“…In the civil suit, the defendants are stonewalling with motions to dismiss the case and are hiding behind claims of immunity. Our attorneys have prepared a vigorous response and we are hopeful the court will see beyond their obvious strategy.
Your moral and financial support are critical to the suit’s survival, especially considering the almost limitless resources of the vice president and his fellow conspirators. We hope that you can help us to amplify the message sent by the American people on November 7th by continuing to make contributions to the Joseph and Valerie Wilson Legal Support Trust. This struggle will be long and arduous, but we remain heartened by your belief that what we’re doing is just.
We will continue to update you on our progress. Please sign up for our email alerts and visit our updated website http://www.WilsonSupport.org http://www.wilsonsupport.org/‘ for new information on this crucial fight.
Joe and Valerie Wilson”
Let’s send them some love $$$
Cranky Observer @ 78
good observation, and to add something NOT seen, as Jane mentioned, never a link to substance
ESaund @
14
Have to agree. The big question is why? why? why? The loudest voices wail liberal media bias is destroying this country. My head wants to explode.
Cecil needs to get emptywheel’s book with its handy timeline.
I ordered a second copy (for friends) yesterday (clicked through the ad top left) and it’s ’shipped’ today, per Amazon. Also go Elizabeth de la Vega’s book with it.
xyz at 50
“It seems to me that, as of today, we have passed some sort of a milepost, and now we are reaching or have reached a critical mass of information regarding all the lies that brought us into war.”
You are quite observant, the precipitate of truth is forming in the chemical mixture of the courtroom, and it looks like something many of us have known all along.
The treasonous scenario most of us suspected (and we could only suspect, unless we were actually in the limo that morning with Deadeye and Scoot) has been proven, by this testimony, regardless of the outcome of this trial.
There’s nothing more like toothpaste coming out of a tube than court testimony, especially when the bloggers we all love and respect are right there, to report about the glob as it leaves the tube.
XYZ, What you describe is Truth itself, like an Easter chick, breaking its way through a neocon shell of lies and deceptions.
So many of us have been calling this for a long, long time.
I still have an editorial I wrote in California in 1999, suggesting that, if another Bush ever won the R’s nomination AND the actual election, we would be thrust into war-for-profit somewhere in the world. No hint yet of Halliburton, but the Carlisle Group is mentioned in that editorial (land mines sold to SKorea).
And what we all feared would happen DID happen, but back then we were all considered and accused of being pinko traitor peace-nik hippy ragheadlovers, just to name a few of the names we were called during those pre-war peace marches.
This court case is the first OFFICIAL justification for our fears, which is why it seems so meaningful after the years of frustration because we couldn’t convince our fellow Americans that it was happening.
But now that we are justified, it is a hollow victory.
Between then and now, the human toll in lives and suffering has reached a level that even some of the most loyal conservatives no longer support or even respect their once-perfect urban-coywboy president.
So it gives us little solace to say “we told you so.” All the gloating in the world won’t bring back those dead men, women and children, soldiers and civilians alike, who were plucked from life or maimed and tortured, because of a series of lies that our fellow Americans, especially our lawmakers, should have been wise and powerful enough to discern and defy.
Cecil Turner @ 39
Kinda blows the “debunked” theory, eh? I was also interested to note the tasker with the “question” Cheney asked was dated Feb 13, 2002 . . . the day after Plame recommended Wilson for the Iraq trip. Which appears to’ve sunk the “behesting” bit as well.
Hey Cecil (who, by the way, is no troll – he is one of the few Plame people on the right who really knows his facts about the case)
The mundanity of the amusing tidbit matches the mundanity of the conservative talking point it rebuts. But the thing about Wilson’s trip supporting the administration position – including the false notion that Wilson reported on a trip to Niger by Iraqis dedicated to “expanding commercial relations” – is not mundane, it was a central talking point in July 2003, and it is based on several falsehoods nested inside each other. It was also a bit of nasty business, as it was designed to show that Wilson was a liar and a hypocrite.
As for the January 24, 2003 document, I included that on my side in the longer version of this post. The key point is that that was more kitchen-sink repetition of the kitchen-sink inclusion of the uranium story in the NIE in a document responsive to a request for new information. If you ask for new information, and what you get back is just cut and pasted from an old document – and no progress has been made whatsoever in determining if there is anything to those reports – it’s a pretty reasonable inference not only that there is nothing new, but that it’s really bad info.
Furthermore, and this is perhaps the central point, neither the NIE nor the rote repetition of it four days before the SOTU give any basis for the inclusion of it in the SOTU. The uranium story formed no part of the basis of the key judgment that Iraq was reconstituting its nuclear weapons program, and so therefore should never have been cited by Bush as evidence for the nuclear threat from Iraq. They were just reaching for whatever they could.
That the uranium story was no part of the basis of the key judgments in the text reflects the fact that, as Robb-Silberman made clear, none of the intelligence agencies apart from DoE – which was grasping at straws to support the obviously requisite conclusion, since it didn’t buy the central and supposedly most compelling evidence supporting the conclusion about nuclear reconstitution (the aluminum tubes) – used the uranium stuff as any part of their judgment about nuclear reconstitution.
It just should never have been in the SOTU, period.
What’s more, Wilson’s reporting wasn’t even part of the basis for the “vigorous pursuit” stuff in the body of the text.
As for the other thing, you look to be on stronger ground, and in an even longer version of this post, I was explicit about the bit about February 12-13 being an element of Cheney’s case bolstered by recently released documents, an element of truth amidst the falsehood. And kudos to you on that one, for real – though I will hold out hope that 1)either the SSCi got the date of Plame’s memo wrong by one day, in which case the issue is reopened; or 2)the tasking memo on Feb 13 is just a documentary memorialization of a request Cheney had made the day before and that had been passed along already to CPD. I will keep hope alive. But until then, kudos to you on that one.
By the way, though, York’s article on the issue sort of ruins itself because its other supposed revelation is a flop. He couldn’t resist taking a crack at Wilson, and York kind of screwed it up.
Wow. Nice theory. (And thanks for the “well-written” bit . . . I do appreciate it.) Actually, Jeff and I had a long discussion about this a while back, and I just wanted him to know I still cared. (Okay, and a bit of I-told-you-so. But if Jeff weren’t such a worthy opponent . . . )
And seriously, Jeff, congrats on the front billing. Cheers.
Christy Hardin Smith @
74
Daddys too, Redd. Plus my wife was a grade school teacher for 30 years, and I’ve put together more assembly-required V-tines than I can remember.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 67
Honestly, yes, I think she would. She has Bill’s record and contacts to build on (heck, she could send him as a special envoy), it would be a tremendous achievment, and I think she understands that it’s strongly in America’s interest (and frankly, in Israel’s, even if it’s not in the interests of the Israeli right wing.)
I think that quite a bit of her hawkishness stems from the belief that (a la Thatcher) a woman has to prove that she’s not “soft” to be elected the first female president. If she’s elected, the necessity of behaving hawkishly is much diminished.
Furthermore, any Democrat who’s elected is going to want to repair our image around the world, and will actually listen to other world leaders, not just make demands. They’re going to be saying with near-unanimity that Middle East peace is at the top of the list.
She’s not my first choice on many other grounds, but on this one, I think she’d do just fine.
Donita’s upstairs.
Redshift @ 92
You think she’ll work for a fair settlement to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?
(Taking a break from the world’s most complicated children’s Valentine assembly line…)
Jeff’s right, gang — Cecil has been commenting over at TNH for a while, and follows this case very closely, from what I’ve seen. I don’t get time to comment at TNH as much as I used to — especially not with the ongoing trial coverage to manage — but that doesn’t mean I’m not reading comments. *g* And Cecil pops up quite frequently there. Just because someone disagrees with your opinion, it does NOT make them a troll. Let’s all try to keep that in mind. (And now, back to tab A in slot B and….)
re: Cecil Turner
(waving) Hi Mary!
Notta Flatlander @ 45
“I was an Internet junky back when it was all lower case.” – Me, ca. 1994
Some deeper-level-geeking if I might… Imho, Notta Flatlander is almost right when saying that everything to the RIGHT of the first single-slash in the URL is case-sensitive. I’m adding the “almost” because in my experience, the latter parts of URLs are not ALWAYS case-sensitive. (NB — we’re not discussing the stuff between the :// and the first single / . Notta and I are in agreement, the stuff between :// and first single / is always case-INsensitive.) Case CAN make a diff after that first single-slash, when a webserver goes looking for specific files.
If the server’s running under an OS where foo.htm can be a totally DIFFERENT file than Foo.html, or where the directory /bar can be different than /Bar, then your url must use the capitals if you want to see /Bar/Foo.html . There are some filesystems that are and some that aren’t case-sensitive, so it’s always safest to just stick with the capitalization as given. Hey, why tempt fate? :)
Now it’s been a few years since I’ve hacked html and servers, so things may have changed. But that’s how it was back when dinosaurs roamed the web…
— —
“I was an Internet junky back in ‘70 when we called it the ARPAnet, and a Web junky back in early ‘93 when it hit the shores of the USA” – Me, t’day :)
… and now back to the purfoot of redreff…
Oops, I stand corrected. *g*
Ah, I hate it when you get all gracious. I suspect most of what you see in the SSCI 1999 visit issue is sloppiness by folks who were trying to make the legitimate point that Wilson’s report wasn’t definitive. But I’ll accept it should’ve been corrected, and won’t nitpick the rest.
Again, congrats.
On October 15, 2001, the Italian intelligence agency SISMI gave a report to the CIA indicating that Iraq had been interested in buying yellowcake from Niger back in 1999. The response of American intelligence agencies varied from possible to dubious.
Late in October 2001, Cheney is briefed. He is dissatisfied with the skepticism and asks the CIA to look further.
January 2002 the CIA holds a meeting. Unsure where else to go with this and still doubtful.
February 5 SISMI releases a second report to the CIA.
February 12 Valerie Plame brings up Joe Wilson’s name and his contacts in Niger
February 14 Cheney receives the second report
February 19 Wilson meets with CIA officials. The following day he is asked and accepts to go to Niger.
From the Plame timeline at dailykos:
http://www.dkosopedia.com/wiki…..October_15
What this shows is that in response to the release of a report by the Italian intelligence agency (based on forgeries), Cheney asked his question in October. When SISMI released its second report in February, the CIA et al which had had no good way to address Cheney’s question was provided with just such a way by Valerie Plame.
And this avenue was in fact pursued. So yes, Plame and the CIA were trying to answer Cheney’s question, the one he asked in October of the previous year. What can not be stressed strongly enough is that Wilson went and correctly concluded that the Iraq-Niger-yellowcake story was bunk.
On March 8 Cheney received a report based on Wilson’s trip but not naming him to the effect that Niger denied that Iraq had sought uranium from Niger or that Niger had tried to provide it with any in the time frame of the alleged 1999 meeting.
Despite this on March 24, Cheney goes on 3 talk shows and accuses Iraq of seeking nuclear weapons. From there things lurched on until the 16 words in the SOTU on January 28, 2003.
The rest as they say is history, and court cases.
Only slightly off topic:
Fitz has become a hero at FDL, and with good reason. So now let’s look at this scenario. In the runup to the 2008 elections, the Republicans realize that none of their usual suspects can win the presidency. They need to clean up their image, so they go to Fitzgerald, who was originally appointed in Illinois by a Republican senator. He might agree that he could run as a Republican.
So here’s the question. Could you support him? How would he do against Edwards? Clinton? Obama?
Oklahoma kiddo, I think Bob Somerby has some relevant ideas on your topic.
Does Gates know that if they did a sweep in this country, they’d also get Iranians, Iraqis, etc. etc. etc.
perris @ 54
If the bounce message mentions “SPF” anywhere in there, either consult an email guru at your ISP or some other ISP and make them fix their SPF entries (whatever they are; I didn’t bother), or do like I did: Get a freebie email acct on gmail or yahoo or hotmail and send from there. SPF is a broken spam-avoidance system, as I hear it from geekier heads than mine. HTH.
S.O.S. in MA @ 98
Unix/Linux is case sensitive. Windows isn’t (or not usually). How you can tell: Windows only uses three letter extensions like .htm, where Unix/Linux can use four, that is, .html.
—
I was at a bring-your-own-computer party in 1979, with a flight simulator running on one of them. How much farther back do you want to go?
That ‘toon is just priceless.
elef @ 101
Ha! Let me be the first to assure you that this is a dilemma that you will never have to face.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 94
Yes, I do. One of the facts that gets bandied about in articles by and about Middle East foreign service experts is that everyone knows pretty much what the final settlement has to look like, and it’s really a matter of getting hardliners to accept that they’re not going to “win.” And unlike the anti-intellectual Bush regime, the Clintons value expertise, so they’ll hear these points, rather than treating them as “just another opinion.”
(And arguably, their political skills may make them better able to weather the crap A*PAC is likely to throw out. I give Hillary and most other candidates some slack on their dealings with A*PAC — there’s no point in fighting them on the campaign trail, but I don’t believe they’re in their pocket, like Lieberman. But that’s a matter of judgment, and I certainly understand those who are not inclined to trust them that far.)
Geez, I’m gonna have to start taking campaign jobs; I can even argue for a candidate I don’t want to win! *g*
Distilled, the question is: does or will Hillary Clinton support a Palestinian homeland?
Cecil Turner @ 99
And let me express my appreciation for your graciousness as well. You’ll have to forgive us regulars for presuming you were a troll; we had quite an infestation during liveblogging of ones who would drop in, spout some thoroughly discredited talking point that wasn’t even on topic, so we’re on a bit of a hair-trigger.
Did I hear someone say “Commodore 64?”
What’s this , an “Old geek”athon?
Some of us geeks go back a ways, its true, but surely there’s no glory in it.
All my self-appointed computer expertise becomes obsolete about once a week.
Cecil Turner @ 39
Kinda blows the “debunked” theory, eh? I was also interested to note the tasker with the “question” Cheney asked was dated Feb 13, 2002 . . . the day after Plame recommended Wilson for the Iraq trip. Which appears to’ve sunk the “behesting” bit as well.
Most of the report you quote has been blacked out. The “foreign government source” is the Italy->Britain recycled bogus Niger claims. Since the report is blacked out it is not apparent in what context these two bullet points are mentioned. They could be mentioned as views which are not credible or possibly dissenting views.
Furthermore it has been reported that the NIO reported to the Bush administration in Jan 2003: The council’s reply, drafted in a January 2003 memo by the national intelligence officer for Africa, was unequivocal: The Niger story was baseless and should be laid to rest. Four U.S. officials with firsthand knowledge said in interviews that the memo, which has not been reported before, arrived at the White House as Bush and his highest-ranking advisers made the uranium story a centerpiece of their case for the rapidly approaching war against Iraq. Link
The Cheney request timeline is the latest attempt to somehow claim that Wilson “lied”. All it proves is that is that there was an existing turf war between DIA and CIA, and while they were duking it out, Cheney’s request came to CIA. While CIA may already have been attempting to send someone to Niger, Cheney’s request clearly came before the meeting where the principals discussed the Niger meeting. Wilson was correct to say that the VP had questions and that the CIA sent him to answer the questions.
Jeff @ 107
Is that because you think he’s uninterested in politics and could not be persuaded that the best way to clean up government would be by running? Or do you think that the Repubs would be scared shitless to have him run?
Jeff @ 107:
Wanna elaborate?
Just to add my 2 cents worth on Russert, his pandering treatment of Cheney when he appears on his ‘favorite’ show has proved his partisianship — in my mind at least.
P J Evans @ 105
Well, Windows has been able to use arbitrary-length extensions for quite a few years now. It’s true that it’s still fairly common to see .htm, but .html isn’t definitive the other way.
I’m not going to get involved in the geek-off, though. :-)
Pete @ 111 – Cheney’s request clearly came before the meeting where the principals discussed the Niger meeting.
Should be Niger trip.
*xyz at 50.
WORD. I totally concur
Good to see you posting, Jeff.
JEP @ 110
Teh Kaypro was more bettuh!
JEP @ 110 – ROTFL, point taken. Back to the purfoot of redreff. I really like the notion that we are reaching “critical mass of truth.” The ball is rolling, and such things accelerate.
There are very few things I give candidates slack on. If a candidate thinks it was right to afford Israel a homeland in 1948, but does not accord the same grant to dignity for the Palestinians, then I give no quarter. Or slack.
S.O.S. in MA @ 96
Mea Culpa.
You are absolutely right – I should have said MAY BE instead of DOES. And yes, it’s server dependent. I stand corrected.
Gadzooks! You win. I didn’t get into it until VM/CMS came along. Didn’t seem to make much sense for MVS… ;-) EDITED cause I can’t type anymore}
We now return you to our regular programming…
I love geek-talk, even if I don’t consider myself a geek. My computer experience goes back to 1978, with the Wang. But my Internet only back to 1994, with Mosaic.
Looks very much like treason to me.
Enjoy.
elef @ 113
He’s not a politician and he’s not a Republican. Why would he run for them? Why would they ask?
NYSun (which is rightist) says Scooter defense to call Jill Abramson, Andrea Mitchell, and Bob Woodward.
The geek-off continues even though I’ve already ceded the game….
TECO anyone?
Biodun: I wrote a plotter driver for a Wang with a whopping 4K of core!
As to the #402 exhibit. Dropped in at the last moment as it was, it was one of those bugs in my brain last night, and needed to look at it again.
What I got was it was a copy of Joe Wilson’s op/ed that Libby had “printed out.” Something about this construction says it was not a zerox style “copy” but instead something produced by going into the NYTimes, and making a text copy. It apparently had Libby’s markings on it. Then it was in a locked safe, and apparently not in a file of working papers.
So, could this be a little Perry Mason style skullduggery — a way of letting Libby and his defense team know that should he testify, this thing will be used in Cross Examination? Maybe Libby wrote something on the print-out that references Valerie and the leak-smear campaign. There is really no need for a further exhibit of Joe Wilson’s writings — that is already in. So there is something about this that is different.
Anyhow, If I were the Prosecution I would want to see Wells have a very narrow, short & thin defense case, and get it over with. Have Wells left hopeful he has one member of the Jury who will hang deliberations. Fitzgerald did something like this in one of his al-Qaeda cases back in the 90’s — can’t remember which one, but it was recovered files on a computer that were very incriminating.
I used to get paid to write programs (pricing futures and options) on an Apple IIplus…
Hugh: You might add to the otherwise excellent Niger history the fact that the forgeries were incredibly (uncredibly?) crude. It took IAEA all of 30 seconds to decide they were, indeed, forgeries.
OK Kiddo : Who, besides the MSM, has decided that Hillary is the front runner?
Note plural: “Mid East Leaders” The only other country mentioned in support is, naturally, Israel. The spot tries to make it sound like we’ve got a new “coalition” forming but doesn’t back it up with any thing
What does CNN have at stake to promote this obfuscation?
HJ Res. 14 specically requires congressional authority before action against Iran. Please support it.
Biodun @
30
elef @ 113
I don’t think Fitzgerald would be interested; and Republicans hate him way too much.
The joys of being a middle-aged geek.
The first computer I got my hands on was a 360/20 (1970). But in hs I knew people who’d gotten to play with them in 1964/65. (They had a different math teacher.) ISTR they were doing it via teletype. The local Major Employer had much fancier machines (and still does: they’re at the Really Big Supercomputer level now), not that we’d have had access to anything inside that fence. (If Scooter had been an employee there, he’d still be bouncing down the road after leaking like that. Just to make this not completely OT.)
Byron York is saying on NPR’s To The Point that Novak and Woodward will testify will testify for defense. And that “Woodward may testify that he told Libby.” Doesn’t know about Libby and/or Cheney.
York also points to Grenier’s memory failure (came back a year later after his memory had grown), John Dickerson can refute Ari’s memory, and Judy Miller never mentioned June 23rd mtg until after spending time in jail.
And calls the case “cooky” of course.
Notta Flatlander @ 131
Hillary.
48 Oklahoma kiddo says:
February 9th, 2007 at 10:28 am
If W does attack Iran and leave it to the Dems to figure a way out, the Dems will deserve it. They are now in the majority, and therefore, in a position to do something about it before Bush has the chance to fulfill his wildest dream of attacking Iran and starting what will become World War III. If they insist on taking all their tools off the table (power of the purse and impeachment,) while still allowing the Administration to keep all theirs, because, we all know that no President should take any tools off the table, including the threat of nuclear war, what does that say about them? How do you spell w-e-a-k-n-e-s-s?
OT–but couldn’t resist. Apologies.
John Dickerson really doesn’t like bloggers. Here he’s weighed in on Edwards blogger controversy. He even implicitly goes after Jane again. He just can’t let go.
Notta Flatlander @ 128
J$HT$4C$0TT$EX$$
You rang?
I thought from two days without much of it, we were not supposed to promote candidates here…
But I’ve only been here since the trial started, so I am a pup of a pup.
Also, Christy, I’m emailing you a list of terminology and abbreviations commonly used here, instead of posting them, to get a definition.
I’m embarrassed I don’t know what “EPU’d” means, and a few other unfamiliar shorties. You might want to, just for fun, offer your bloggers an opportunity to build a little “Firedog Dictionary” so those of us coming aboard might not seem so pre-pupescent.
One thing I have noticed, as something of a journeyman blogger (meaning I “inhabit” one or two blogs for a while, then move on to the next, most informative place, and there’s no place more informative on the blogs right now than FDL) is the unique vernacular each blog develops as its readers and posters and hosts play their word games; a cute twisting of definition, a meaningful marriage of words with more than one meaning, and delightfully puerile puns with multiple entendres, all seem to find unique homes on this blog.
Bunch of smart folks here.
But as for arguing about candidates, I just spent a few hard months poking fun at Chris Cillizza on the WaPo “The Fix” blog, and that (political candidates) was just about the only subject anyone ever talked about.
Its nice to read about some other issues, but as an Edwards supporter, I might chime in now and them with down-to-earth, street-level logical reasoning, just to counter the brazen blatant political hackery, if it rears its ugly head.
As for trolls, you folks have that well under control, and it makes your blogging all the better for it.
Blog censorship, performed by a thoughtful administrator, can be a good thing, especially if you want to keep the “subterfugers” from messing up your very intelligent and fruitful discussions.
The Perlstein article cited by Jeff is great — it captures the revolution of FDL’s coverage of the Libby trial perfectly.
What is most interesting part of the article to me though, was the last segment (as I am already completely in awe of Marcy, Swopa, Pach, Jeralyn, Christy, Jane, and the rest of the FDL crew) — the strong case he makes for pseudonymity. Marcy Wheeler (nee’ emptywheel) made a similar statement in favor of pseudonymity yesterday in response to the MBA’s attempt to “include her”, but I didn’t get it.
I’ve always used my real name here and other places, in the belief that pseudonymity was for sissies — people who were afraid that their words would come back to bite them. But these articles make the point that psuedonymity requires ones ideas to be stronger and better. If all you have is your words, and no credential to back you up, then your words have to carry all the water themselves.
Imagine, say, George Will writing an article psedonymously. Would anybody read it? Would anybody care? I would hope not — he just doesn’t write all that well and hasn’t had a new idea in decades. But, he is able to backstop his articles with the name that has been vetted by the powers that be (that is, editors of Newsweek, say.)
Anyway, it was an interesting article. Thanks for the link “Jeff”, or whatever your real name is :)
Ann in AZ @ 137
Very good.
*xyz @
50
I was thinking just that, and agree.
amazona @ 6
My eyes welled up with tears when I read this. I just said to my Mom today that I called my Senators (Warner and Webb) to urge action against the escalation. Ranted at the person at Warner’s office for obvious reasons but I said to my Mom–I’m banging in pots and pans!
JEP @ 138:
Urban Dictionary is a good source for the terms used at FDL. You’ll find EPU’d there, which actually originated from a regular FDL commenter.
Ann in AZ @ 136
Amen! My only cause for even slight optimism is that *some* Dems in power seem to be keen on representing the American people, and as for the rest, well, I think they maybe can be influenced, unlike BushCo. I am liking what the Code Pink ladies are doing with their Occupation Project. Marching in DC, ho hum, they are immune to that. But a bunch of irate constituents sitting in their reps local offices — now *that’s* something that should get the reps’ attention. It’s a lot faster and cheaper than trekking to DC, should work on all sorts — Federal, state, local, R’s or Dems. Something for the local media to report, too.
Hmmm. Lots of wild speculation out there today. Random thoughts:
1. Libby CAN’T testify. Fitz has his e-mails, for one thing. Remember his opening argument? He mentioned a key Libby e-mail that we haven’t seen yet. Libby is going to look worse, not better, if he takes the stand.
2. I don’t see how Bob Novak can be called to the stand. Libby’s GJ testimony is that he didn’t talk to him until after his column was published. The only way Libby can conceivably get Novak on the stand is by somehow linking Novak to Tim Russert (i.e. he has to get Novak to say he told someone who then told Tim Russert about Plame).
3. The same sort of problem applies to Bob Woodward. Unless Woodward can somehow be linked to Russert, his testimony isn’t relevant to the charges.
4. Andrea Mitchell should, in my opinion, be forced to testify. There’s enough there to justify a subpoena. She’s a co-worker to Russert, and she said, on tape, that everyone knew that Plame worked at the CIA. Yes, she has since retracted that statement, and yes, her lawyers say she’ll continue to deny it, but I agree with Wells that he should have to opportunity to question her under oath.
5. There is just no way that Cheney will take the stand. Shooting an old man in the face is a credibility issue, and he can’t afford to answer questions under oath about it.
WooHoo! I just caught CHS on the podcast of AAR’s Sam Seder Show. Dynamite job Christy! Can’t wait to hear your next guest shot!
I’d like to hear the Shooter be questioned about that entire incident, under oath. A person can dream, Frank!
Thanks, biodun, I just added it to my shortcuts. Nice opening page, I must say…
JEP
Being for any candidate here is fine but expect all candidates to have both supporters and detractors.
EPU is Evil Parallel universe, a commenter who used to post comments right at the moment a new thread began and so his often excellent ideas were left stranded and relatively unread.
I stick by my characterization of Cecil Turner as a troll. His position was a retread that has been advanced and answered before, but even if true, it misses the central point that Wilson got it right and, as we have seen with the al Qaeda-Saddam connection, Cheney got it wrong and persisted in his wrongness to the great detriment of the country.
Also Thad Beier, I like pseudonyms. For me, they say don’t look at me, look at my ideas. If George Will or David Broder had to use pseudonyms their ideas would sink without trace because they just are not very good ideas.
I’m sure someone will have already explained ‘EPU’ by the time I get this up.
In addition to JEP’s suggestion which, as a relative newbie here myself seems a most excellent one, I have another. Looking ahead to next round of liveblogging, a “Libby trial FAQ” might keep the questions down. Thus,
Q #1: Is Fitz! done when this trial is over?
A: Possibly. The most likely outcomes, according to the commets, are: …
Q #2: Why does the judge keep saying Plame’s status as covert isn’t at issue? Isn’t this trial about exposing a CIA agent?
A: While the leak may be the starting point, Libby is charged with…. See also Q#1.
Q #3: Why is the defense talking about….
If I had the time (and easier access to your archives), I’d write a Perl script to try and pick out the most common questions, the ones that keep getting asked and getting multiple answers. But I don’t.
OT–but practical. Huff Post is looking to hire.:
I confess, I had a Commodore PET, with 8K of RAM. (More than you’ll ever need!)
Hugh @ 148
Exactly!
I sometimes wonder if Scooter is negotiating for a pardon. He probably expected one by now- and it ain’t a comin. Why? Cause the White House doesn’t expect to take a big hit on the trial- so it’s to Scooter’s advantage to threaten to conduct his defense in a way that maximizes the embarassment potential- by for example making Cheney testify.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 74
The things we do because we love our children…. I definitely remember this kind of frustration.
But I would give nearly anything to be assembling little valentines today with my angel girls, who live and work thousands of miles away.
Excuse me Redshift, but why the asterisk between the A and the P?
Redshift @ 108
… the crap A*PAC is likely to throw out.
On puh-swade-oh-nims
Thinking on it a bit more Hugh, you’re right but..
WRT Will, Broder and ilk, it’s just as you say. Their ideas (on those occasions when they actually present one) stink.
What do you think about the issue with regard to the pseudonymous counterparts of Malkin, Coulter and ilk. I mean, there is no “there” there. It’s not about ideas at all. They don’t really write about ideas, it’s all intended to provoke an emotional repsonse among those susceptible to such provocations.
Frank Probst @ 143
No, it’s not, but would this keep Wells from trying to introduce it anyway? His strategy so far seems to be to introduce as much irrelevant material as possible. Still I would like to hear Fitzgerald question Woodward’s credibility with regards to why he came forward when he did and I wouldn’t mind seeing Fitzgerald ask a few questions about the episode where Woodward said he had an assessment (by definition classified) in his pocket saying that the outing of Plame had resulted in no damage to intelligence operations (even though this outing destroyed the cover Brewster-Jennings, as well as the cover of all those associated with it, placed at risk the contacts they had developed through it, and last but best Woodward didn’t have this assessment because it had never been made and didn’t exist). But that Woodward is a self-serving, lying weasel who made his reputation since Watergate on his contacts and stenography is, I agree, irrelevant. A pity.
for egregious – isn’t this similar to what you do in Russia?:
Notta Flatlander @ 128
I wrote a computer program in 1968 in PL/1 and got the answer back the very next day.
JEP @ 139
Hi JEP, have been watching you comment through the Libby trial. Everybody’s been pretty restrained for the sake of the servers, so our manners haven’t been as courtly as usual, but I do want to say welcome. Glad to read your thoughtful and intelligent comments and much enjoyed your The Yellow Skies of Texas parody.
OMG! Promoting candidates is what we do! About the only time our Ladies of the Lake get cranky is if people get gratuitously mean (Christy) or too prissy (Jane). For just a taste of FDL candidate promoting, check out the Blue America threads here. Rayne has an FDL lexicon in her Libby Liveblogged Primer at her blog. And since she allows comments, you can ask if there’s one you don’t see, or add defs as you learn them.
Mostly we just explain stuff sempai style. We’re not very organized — we’re progressives ; )
Re trolls, Jane and Christy have chosen the highly labor-intensive no-subscription, no-registration, no-delay comments. As you can imagine, that is a *huge* task for the FDL Lurking Mods — and it’s not just trolls, they keep out spam and sharks and other, um, fecal matter deposited in our lovely Lake. Thank you, Ladies! Yay, Mods!
And they don’t ask for money nearly often enough, which is why everybody else keeps making the “toe-tap tax’ noises.
Speaking of which, do you think we have enough material for an FDL music page, what with your stuff and Subway’s great Condomaniac? FiniFiniToobz, what do you think? I’ve been inspired by the Helsinki Complaints Choir!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 136
From the Rove playbook: say it is so, say it loudly, repetitively, with confidence – and so it becomes.
sweetgumroot @ 157
To foil searches and stuff, as, from the NS*. You will also see asterisks used as in Ed*ard Teller’s and *ilson’s handles, (=’no W), also words like bl*ckj*ck and Ins*rance, which trigger the spam filters and put comments into moderation.
Notta Flatlander @ 155
They are already doing this. If they want to vent, let them. It’s ugly and worthy of ridicule, but as long as it doesn’t cross the line into hate speech and incitement to violence, it’s their right. When it does veer into hate speech, it should be pursued. Ann Coulter, in particular, is someone who advocates regularly violence against anyone who doesn’t agree with her decidedly warped view of the universe. That isn’t protected speech and I would dearly love to see someone sue her for it. IANAL but the question seems to be one of standing and so far no one, say a Supreme Court judge whose death she advocated, has done so.
egregious @ 161
Can’t even make the cut for the PrehistoricGeek competition, but I’ve been hunting down Complaints Choirs, and egregious, have you seen the St Petersburg one?
sweetgumroot @ 164
man, that is such a good line, did you come up with this?
because it suits the neo con tactic to a tee
Egregious,Completely OT but I was thinking of you this morning on the way to work. First time this year without having to have headlights on going or coming. YAY! the days are getting longer.
I did some wicked stuff with Super Spyrograph back inthe late 60s.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 55
#55
Am I hoping for too much or has the mere mention of the Bush name now become political poison?
Once Dubya’s presiduncy is over, nobody named Bush will ever hold elected office again. More and more, people recoil when they hear that name. They will associate the name with the Iraq quagmire and the lies that got us there.
_____
Mr. Rove, what I want for your son is simply standard inmate visitor hours.
_
OT–
Joe Klein also weighs in on the looming Lieberman-Democratic party divorce:
BobbyG @ 170
707
Right on! That was perfect.
I’ll still take Gore.
BobbyG @ 171
I want mr rove’s son serving in our great armed services…in Iraq…on the front line
uhyup
> I wrote a computer program in 1968
> in PL/1 and got the answer back the
> very next day.
Clearly you failed to make friends with and/or bribe the night shift operator!
Cranky
duplicate
[Mod Note; our apologies egregious. We follow directions very well, if sometimes too hastily]
OT–
How about this one that Tony Blair might be hunting for a NYC coop pretty soon:
I want Hillary’s daughter serving on the front line.
punaise @ 167
As wicked as this from TBogg?
Thanks, Mods, for putting up with these OTs on Friday afternoon(s) at FDL (after Donita’s upstairs).
Only the ‘little people’ pick tomatoes.
Oklahoma kiddo @
180
As a fobbit serving next to the Bush twins.
Bustednuckles @ 174
excellent, BobbyG
OT–
And how about Noron’s predictions about frontrunners:
Biodun @ 173
Joe Klein is predicting now the threat we were discussing here before the November elections. A lot of Establishment Democrats supported a guy they knew to be a backstabber. It shouldn’t be a surprise to them or anyone if and when Lieberman turns on them. That said, the calculation that has to be going through Joe’s pointy little head is whether 2 years as a turncoat in a Republican majority is worth 4 years after the ‘08 elections as an out of power pariah.
If he does switch, there are going to be a lot of Democrats: Big Dawg, Joe Biden, Barbara Boxer, Joe Schumer who are going to have to answer some serious questions about their role in creating this situation.
BobbyG @ 184
Along with Lieberman’s son.
Is the output of a shredder which is shredding classified documents more classified documents?
HotFlash—
That complaints choir was hilarious. Thank you. The lyrics were right on target.
presque vu @ 188
The answer to that is classified.
OT–
How would you like to go on this weekend date:
egregious @ 178
No problem.
I’m 0 for 2 on that :)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 136
From the Rove playbook: say it is so, say it loudly, repetitively, with confidence – and so it becomes.Frank Probst @ 147
Is your point #5 just for entertainment purposes, or would that really be brought-up with any bearing on the trial?
Kids in my family (and there are several) serve in the military. Some are on their second or even third tour to Iraq. I am outraged that almost none of the politicians who supported the initial attack on Iraq and do not call for a pull out have no family members serving in Iraq.
Hugh @ 187
Yep. But that would certainly provoke a crisis within the Democratic Party at a time when a unified force would be crucial in 2008, and the two years leading up to it.
As I said in an earlier thread: Lieberman could do some serious damage in the next two years.
In the best of all possible worlds, he should have been booted out last year in the first place. FDL certainly did all it could to achieve that. Big pity it didn’t happen. But this is all yesterday’s news.
Onward.
OT–
Also this from Radar on Obama’s chances of being elected:
President George W. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney are unwittingly playing Dr. Jack Kevorkian in helping the state of Israel commit suicide. For this is the inevitable consequence of the planned air and missile attack on Iran. The pockmarked, littered landscape in Iraq, Lebanon and Afghanistan and the endless applicant queues at al-Qaeda and other terrorist recruiting stations testify eloquently to the unintended consequences of myopic policymakers in Washington and Tel Aviv.
http://www.tompaine.com/articl…..el_die.php
Not OT–
On media pundits who were wrong on the war striking it rich:
Avenging_Angel @ 170
It’d be nice to think so, but the thing about the Undead is that they just won’t die. You can’t forget about them, you have to keep a watch on their graves. I mean, Newt is back!
I blame the heavy hitters in the Demo party for the Lieberman disaster. If they had done what was necessary, Lamont would have been the new Senator from CT. I’m angry.
HotFlash @ 165
Thanks. I’d previously picked-up on the issue of spam filters and mods.
Re: the other issue, still hard to accept I may live in a s*rveil*nce s*a*e. !@#$%&!
I’m in EPU land. Outta here. Have a great (and Greta) weekend!
Lieberman switch?
alba at DKos says don’t worry about it.
stingray @
135
I heard the same program, and I had the impression that marcy has had a good impact on him, as compared to Victoria Toesing (however its spelled), York sounded like the voice of reason.
Anyway, I did not hear York say that Woodward would testify that he *had* told LIbby about Plame, rather that he would say that could not rule out the *possibility* that he might’ve. In other words, more foggy reporter memories…
Speaking of To the Point, I was furious. In addition to Vicky–who was spewing rightwing lawyerly talking points in a fashion which would’ve made Matalin envious (such as it is a *fact* that Valerie Plame was not covert), there was a DC defense attny (who has won two cases with Wells) and a former DOJ prosecutor who was representing some unamed White House employee. Before that was Isikoff.
In view of the Bush Administration lies used to drag us into the Iraq attack, why would anybody accept the word of Robert ‘Iran-Contra’ Gates on anything?
MUNICH, Germany – Serial numbers and other markings on bombs suggest that Iranians are linked to deadly explosives used by Iraqi militants, Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Friday in some of the administration’s first public assertions on evidence the military has collected.
By LOLITA C. BALDOR, Associated Press Writer
2 minutes ago
punaise @ 170
I can do it without the wheel.
Ed*ard Teller @ 38
I was wondering if her name was going to pop up again. I must admit I only recently learned of her and her writings, but have reservations. How is she seen by the reality based community – credible?
Cecil Turner @
60
The dispute is whether it was debunked by Wilson (and reported to the Administration, and hence evidence they were lying when President Bush referred to African uranium in the SOTU). Obviously if it was reported as fact by the CIA four days before the SOTU, that can’t be true.
You’re probably gone, Cecil, but I have two questions.
First, if the trip was not done at Cheney’s request, then why did Cheney tell Libby that in the same conversation that he told Libby Plame worked in CPD? And if it was not done at Cheney’s request, then why wouldn’t CIA even make the minimal case Cheney wanted–to say State and Defense were interested as well? And why did Cheney stop making that request between June and July?
And if the 1/24 document (sent at the same time as the other NIO document saying the Niger claim was a bunch of hooey) is so great, then why didn’t CIA include it in Tenet’s statement, after Cheney and Libby asked for it to be included? And why are you investing so much in what Walpole said if he also said that the British claims were not credible?
perris @ 168
Thanks for the compliment. Thought everyone saw it that way. The Hillary application is new.
Avenging_Angel @ 171
You are definitely hoping for too much. We need to be documenting every single thing those twins and their cousins do from her on out.
Christy at 77- Just to correct the spelling of Mayor Daley’s last name. We give him credit for much greening of the city. BTW. :)
amazona @ 6
My story is the inverse of amazona’s. I was sitting in Hobby Airport last Friday afternoon, waiting for my connection to Austin. Standing nearby, a man and a woman, both well-dressed, 60ish and obviously business colleagues were having a conversation. I wasn’t trying to listen in at first, but the mention of Molly Ivins’ name caught my attention. Turning an ear to them, I heard them agreeing with each other that Molly’s writing was “mean” and “mean-spirited.”
I looked right at them and said “F@cking republicans talking about somebody else being mean. That sure takes the cake.”
For years, I’ve kept quiet while wingnuts pronounced their delusions as if they were settled fact. No more.
Re: Any Iranian equipment and citizens found in Iraq, has anybody run a statistical comparison with same found bearing the stamp of other nations, e.g, the amount of equipment of Iranian origin compared to Saudi origin? US origin?
So where does the Crime in Italy (Niger Documents) fall into the Pentagons IG’s investigation?
Iaea’s El Baradei, Weapons inspectors Scott Ritter and Dr. David kay, Col. Sam Gardiner, Flynt Leverett have all said there is no “hard evidence” to back up any of the claims being repeated about Iran’s ‘alleged’ nuclear weapons program. Go check out the congressional briefing that Congressman Kucinich put together with these folks on a panel discussing Iran. (at C-span)
Biodun @ 192
Telling that our MSM would spend an hour on the death of Nicole and have never spent any where near an hour on hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqi’s or the Iraqi children that died during the sanctions.
great to see you posting Jeff – hope this becomes a regular thing
EW, Cecil and I seem to be on the same page.
And I guess I’m one of those drive-by trolls who posted over the last few days. Sorry, as I said yesterday. I haven’t kept up with the Libby stuff for a while and ended up at FDL because of the great trial coverage. That is sincere.
As I read the comments, it didn’t take long to realize you all have a totally different perspective about the Admin’s motivations, so I posted my thoughts and was directed to eRiposte’s research.
Anyway, I wanted to get some input so posted this yesterday:
“Some folks here pointed me to eRiposte’s exhaustive investigative work, and I read some of it last evening. I’m way behind in knowing the details, so it’s all too convoluted for me to follow. But it did remind me of Wilson’s claim in his book that Baghdad Bob was the Iraqi who met with the Nigerian minister in 1999. The minister supposedly told Wilson this after the Iraq invasion when he saw Bob on TV.
I had also read about another Iraqi who actually did visit Niger in 1999. He was, at that time, Ambassador to the Vatican but was previously “… the Iraqi representative to the International Atomic Energy Agency—Iraq’s senior public envoy for nuclear matters.”
Quote is from Christopher Hitchens’ article last April in Slate. I’d really like to hear thoughts on Hitchens’ theories. One is that the forgeries were a red herring thrown in to cover a real attempted deal. If it’s been discussed before, please direct me. Thanks”
According to Hitchens, there were two Iraqi contacts with Niger in 1999, and the Duelfer Report talked about a Niger visit to Iraq in 2001. Does anyone know more about this or have a comment on Hitchens’ article?
Please be kind. I’m not part of any right-wing cabal – I’m an old lady who can’t type. By the time I gathered my thoughts and typed this up, the thread seems to be dying. Thanks.
Cecil Turner @
39
Kinda blows the “debunked” theory, eh?
The fact that an old CIA report (not a new one) based on information that had been already considered unsupported and unverified by the intelligence community shows the desperation of those in the WH to support the SOTU.
NO AGENCY considered the “contract” reported by this foreign source to be valid at the date of the SOTU. All had rejected the information within as being unreliable. That’s why the WH rapidly fell back on the “vigorously seeking” talking point…because they had long before known that the SOTU wording could NOT be based upon these documents.
Regarding the assertion of Iraq seeking Uranium ore from Somalia…from what mines? Somalia has no yellowcake Uranium. And the DRC mine had been flooded for decades. This was established as being an unsubstantiated rumor. The intelligence report of Iraq “seeking” yellowcake from Somalia was actually based upon the discovery of a shipping invoice for a “500 ton” shipment of unknown material to an unknown destination. Because the quantity “matched” the amount cited in the Niger-Iraq reports this was considered important (even if the “contracts” suggested that the shipment would be in two “tranches”, not one). But after the the US Embassy in Niger, Gen. Carlton Fulford, the INR, and Wilson’s mission…the idea of any actual deal occurring was rapidly dropped. So none of the above cited African “sources” were considered viable. And they weren’t at the time of the SOTU. That’s all right there in the SSIC Report, as filled with critical redactions as it is!
Except that this ignores the fact that the CIA wrote a SECOND report based on that foreign intelligence source on February 5th, 2002. Oddly, the SSIC report appears to REDACT who the report was DISTRIBUTED TO! But from subsequent discussion we do see that the State Department INR (which heavily criticized it), and the Pentagon’s DIA got copies. The DIA used the CIA report to write their own report that was sent to the Vice President.
So, if the Office of the Vice President was given the Second Report or given a summary of its contents by any source (Tenet, the Pentagon, State Department, WINPAC reps) they may have verbally expressed interest before February 12th to the CIA.The wheels may have been set in motion before the VP receiving the DIA report.
In fact, that seems quite likely, since Craig Schmall briefed Cheney in the early morning of Feb 12th. And it’s doubtful that a document from the DIA would have passed from the WH Situation Room through to Cheney before that briefing. That means that his request that the briefer intitate a further investigation on a report was based upon the earlier CIA report. I suspect that Cheney wanted Schmall to find out what the CIA was doing about his earlier query.
The DO may have also received inquiries from State and the Pentagon…but it seems that both of the latter were using their own resources (see below). Wilson’s briefing definitely came AFTER Cheney’s inquiries, and may have been the principle reason that Wilson was sent rather than simply going with the State Department’s negative assessments from the US Embassy in Niger. That may have been noted at the briefing. Certainly Wilson wasn’t sent at the behest of INR, and other analysts were dismissive that his mission would be reliable…could statements by former officials who might be currying favor with the US be trusted to not exagerate?
Cheney’s then CIA briefer, Schmall, states “Cheney read the 12 June Pinkus (sic) article, which claimed the Ambassador’s trip was done at the request of the Vice-President. Cheney did not recall this at all. He couldn’t recall if he requested a memo on this issue. Research reveals that Cheney did ask and received a memo in early 2002…I sent to Scooter Libby’s then Chief of Staff, Eric Edelman…an early 2002 and an early 2003 memo on the Iraq/Niger/Uranium issue done for CHENEY and Rumsfeld, RESPECTIVELY.” [DX421 “CIA internal memo Re. FBI Session on Leak Probe”]
And guess what that report from the CIA that Schmall refers to was entitled? DX439 8 March 2002 “Nigerien Denial of Uranium Yellowcake Sales Claims to Rogue States”
http://wid.ap.org/documents/li…../DX439.pdf
So it seems that the OVP did receive Wilson’s report….just as the VP requested!
That Cheney already knew this is suggested by Libby’s notes of that June 12th , 2003 phone conversation with Cheney…in which Cheney tells Libby
“.) Took place at our behest-functional office-CP/his wife works in that div’n. Debriefing took place here & was meeting in region. OVP and Defense and State – expressed strong interest in issue
This is followed by a series of talking points that deny the above
1) didn’t know about mission 2) didn’t get report back, 3) didn’t have any indication of forgery- was from IAEA
http://wid.ap.org/documents/li…../GX104.pdf
So, it seems that Cheney DID request that the CIA look into the Iran-Niger reports, and did request and receive a memo back. That was Joe Wilson’s report.The question of the Genesis of the mission is still unclear, but it certainly could have been the result of a verbal request by the VP before Feb 12th, and because the SSIC didn’t interview the DO or others that may have been directly involved in the trip, and may not have obtained all the relevant records, the SSIC may not be complete on this issue. But it’s clear that Plame would not have had the authority to clear her husband for this mission…that was done by her superiors, and Cheney’s request gave them an important reason for doing so.
I’d love to see the wingbat THEORY of how the CIA coerced Cheney to make his requests to fall into the hands of the devious Plame-Wilson conspiratorial trap! A trap that only was sprung when Bush was deceived to use the “16 words” in the SOTU and THEN invaded Iraq. And the Plame network really set up the passing and delayed IAEA exposure of the Italian forgeries just right!
cinnamonape #219 says,
Do you have any thoughts on Christopher Hitchens’ contention that there were two Iraqi contacts with Niger in 1999, and the Duelfer Report that talked about a Niger visit to Iraq in 2001?
See my # 218. Thanks.
Hugh @
151
And then there’s my reason for using a pseudonym. I feel free to post (and possibly say something stupid) and learn something new.
ctm @ 218
Well I think you aren’t simply an old lady who can’t type
because the above suggests that you seriously process the right-wingnut material and are intent on passing it on.
Where’s the source for the claim that Zahawie was Iraq’s representative to the IAEA? It’s not in that Hitchin’s article!
And if the forgeries were a cover up of an authentic transaction…why would they use al Zawahie’s name on them? Wouldn’t that draw attention TO HIM? And Zawahie’s trip was quite OPEN, it was reported in the media…which is where the Brits got hold of it.
And remember that the CIA, DIA, INR, French Intelligence, and MI6 were all looking into any and all evidence of a Niger-Iraq transaction and except for “forgery” and “son of forgery” passed for financial gain…found nada.
Hitchen’s theory sounds very much like the extremist conspiracy theorists that assert that the reptilian aliens that are in control of the government create some easily debunked UFO sightings simply to throw off really finding them out! It sounds as if Hitchens has finally drifted over into madness as a result of his shilling for a war that has gone desperately, horribly wrong on every major point that he tried to justify it!
Hitchens needs to simplify…why would Iraq NEED to get yellowcake this way (the already had some 400 tons in IAEA canisters in Baghdad)…and why take the risk of getting caught long before you had even developed the capacity to process such material.
Wingbats!
So…the question I have is “When did Judy Miller know and what did she know about Valerie Wilson…it seems like someone writing a Bio-Warfare book would need the cooperation of the Weapons Proliferation crowd and the CIA…I guess the Bush/Cheyney Cabal would try to discover the identity of an “unnamed former Ambassador” who is mentioned in Kristoff’s column…now who oh who did the Crime Family “know” at the Times? Could that person have casually mentioned that Wilson’s wife worked under NOC at Langley…Of course, the Timeser would need to have “security clearance” no, wait this would imply that “they” would be interested in a “work-up” on the critic…I GUESS NOT!
cinnamonape #223
Thanks, Some points to research.
I doubt Hitchens would falsely claim that Zahawie had been Iraq’s representative to the IAEA – it must be checkable.
ctm @ 218
Hi ctm,
While I’m not the master of all Libby details that EW, Swopa, Jane, Christy, etc. are, I did want to let you know that your post was read, and that you bring up an interesting question.
I take you at your word that you are not a troll, and I hope that you yourself do not believe it.
Sometimes folks can be “overly reflexive” in their responses, and without giving much thought, unfairly label a different point of view as the words of a troll.
Having seen your comments here over the past few days, I’ve noted some of those “must be a troll” responses.
Given your comments here in this thread, I feel ashamed for our lack of civility toward you and even more ashamed not saying so earlier.
If you should perhaps read this (it is indeed rather late in this thread), please re-visit your questions again in one of the new threads.
Hopefully we haven’t chased you away with our bad manners.
Just got my Anatomy of Deceit and am two chapters in… woot! woot!
Great to see you contributing here.
Cecil said “I doubt Hitchens would falsely claim that Zahawie had been Iraq’s representative to the IAEA – it must be checkable.”
Was Hitchens sober at the time? It’s like saying “Rush Limbaugh said it on the air, how can it be false.”