
We'll start today by finishing the testimony of David Addington–Mr. Unitary Executive. While we're waiting, let me explain what Fitzgerald seems to be doing right now with Addington. He has used Addington to submit all of the subpoenas to and document submissions from OVP for the first six months of the investigation. He's not doing this to prove that some documents weren't turned over. I'm fairly certain this relates to one of the challenges to the case Libby's team has posed. Libby's team argues that the early investigation related exclusively to the leak to Robert Novak. If they can prove that, they will then argue that lies about Cooper and Judy are not material lies–that is, not important enough to merit a false statements conviction. But Fitzgerald is using Cheney's own lawyer to prove that–no, OVP was well aware of the fact that the investigation related to any leaks relating to the Wilsons.
Just some reminders–I'm not a court reporter, I'm a dirty hippy blogger. So don't quote me as if I'm writing a transcript. Don't kill the servers by refreshing every 30 seconds (I'll post time stamps so you know when you SHOULD update). And buy my book.
Huh. Someone has put a battery and dime onto the overhead. It's down now.
Fitz is back in his light suit–it looks kind of seersucker-y.
Addington is up (I expect about an hour of Addington before we get to Judy–she'll come on just in time for the West Coast). Addington's got a maroon tie on. I've decided that he has the look and mannerisms of a Physics or CompSci professor. Every time Fitz asked him questions he'd just go on and on unprompted. There was none of the hostility I might have expected. Just sitting there calmly on the stand. Though he's on his second pour of water already, just waiting for the judge and jury.
Jury coming in.
Fitz: When we broke, published one exhibit, I'd like to publish one additional exhibit. Can you tell the jury what that is?
A: Subpoena from this court dated 1/22/2004, return date 2/6/2004.
Fitz: Attachment A describes all documents relating to discussion of the following (Addington to read).
A: 1) Wilson or his wife, 2) Valerie Plame Wilson or Plame, 3) stuff related to Wilson's trip including long list of reporters. [reading list of names into the record--it's the long list of journalists listed in subpoenas at the beginning of the investigation (including Jeff Gannon, which elicited some laughs here)
Fitz: Coversation about paperwork related to CIA employee spouse trip. Did you ever have a later occasion to discuss this.
A: Yes, right before investigation started.
Fitz: Describe what you recall.
A Larger office in OEOB, I knew it would have to do with the case. I reminded them that I was employee for the govt, our conversation wouldn't be privileged. He said, I just want to tell you I didn't do it.
F: What else was said?
A: He asked me how you would know if you met someone from CIA if they were undercover. I responded when I worked out there, you'd ask if someone if they were undercover. He asked if they introduced themselves how you'd know. I told him you wouldn't know unless you asked or saw a piece of paper that said it was classified. I volunteered to him I could get him a copy of IIPA that makes it a crime to reveal identity of covert agent. I took it to his office and gave it to him.
F Any further conversation with him about that?
A No.
F; Nothing further.
9:40
Wells: Libby told you I did not do it.
A Yes, but I came to him
Wells; you told Libby that anything he said to you would not be privileged.
A Not privileged in context of criminal investigation. (He keeps repeating this, of course not wanting to suggest there is ever any other limit on privilege)
W: He asked how you'd know if someone worked undercover.
A I don't know if he knew where in CIA I worked.
W You did not find anything unsual about that question
Objection sustained.
W with respect to document production, you were personally responsible for it. You personally reviewed and stamped each
A Yes, with some exception of documents I did not see that were marked privileged. I did not see the contents of those documents.
W You reviewed all of Mr. Libby's documents.
A All the ones I produced to the govt.
W Today you're chief of staff. You were promoted to that position. You reviewed Ms. Heiden's documents, and Vp's docs? You also attended witness interviews.
A Mayfield, McGrath, Ms Heiden.
W Based on your review of the docs you had knowledge of the case that was independent of what you knew personally
A I also saw the docs produced to the govt.
W You knew fairly early on that you were likely to be a witness in the case.
A I knew that when govt interviewed VP, they indicated they didn't want me to come, only his private attorney. Sometime in 2004.
W One of Libby's docs referrred specifically to you. You were a passenger on trip to Norfolk, AF2,
A I'm not sure that's the exact date.
W You were interviewed by the FBI, you appeared before the GJ wrt your personal knowledge. At the time you appeared in GJ, you had already reviewed hundreds pages of docs. You had also attended some witness interviews. WRT the docs that Mr Libby produced to you in response to subpoena. Is it correct that he produced hundreds and hundreds of pages of notes.
A Don't know the count. Total production so far was 12040 pages, a lot of that was Scooter's notes.
W His handwriting is difficult to read. You spent a lot of time reviewing Libby's notes.
A I wouldn't say I was able to understand all of it.
W Want to show you one of the notes and that you reviewed before your own GJ testimony.
Offering document and transliteration.
9:49
Handwritten note by Libby.
W You personally reviewed that doct, then you stamped it, then you turned it over to govt. The way you received the doc, you advised Mr Libby that there was a request for docs and he gave you that doc in response to request for docs.
A The same way the other employees would have done. He produced it or had his staff produce it but it came to me.
W You were requesting docs to give to govt.
A It's possible I received copy first,
W Date 6/12/03 with mark over 12. The doct you got shows the phrase CP/His wife works inthat div'n. Then it says telephone, VP re uranium in Iraq, Kristof NYT article. Took place at our behest--functional office, CP/--his wife works in that division. Did you come to understand that that exhibit showed that Libby had been told by VP that Mrs. Wilson worked in CP section of CIA.
A I didn't draw the conclusion from this document. I didn't do analysis. It says VP told him this, I didn't get this from this document either.
W It says telephone/VP.
A If I could see the original. I have no paper copy, xerox. I can't testify as to symbol before the dash means. I am familiar with the Y-looking letter I figured that that was his symbol for VP.
W You do see the CP/-his wife works at that dvision. Based on having worked at CIA.
A Based on working at CIA, I had no idea. CP often refers to Colin Powell. It strikes met that that might be counter-proliferation.
W You took this document to the government.
A Yes, in normal course of investigation.
W You know that Libby advised govt that VP had told him.
Objection sustained (hearsay).
W Want to show another document.
9:57
New document. Chickenscratch!!
W You testified yesterday a meeting with Mr. Libby in Libby's anteroom.
A Yes, he has a little office there.
W Is it your office today.
A Yessir.
W How long meeting was. Approximately 2 minutes
A Very short meeting.
W You discussed two subjects
A We discussed paperwork at CIA and President authority to declassify.
W WRT to authority to declassify. If POTUS could declassify document on his own w/o going through the normal declassification process.
A I'm not sure he worded it like that. Part of that was me pointing out in EO, BC the authority is the Constitutional Autority of President, he could exercise that on his own. He simply asked COULD the president do it, the answer was yes.
W Any document or portion of a document. [Note Wells introduced the issue of documents, I think Addington originally referred to this discussion as relating to declassifying "something."]
A I said it could be anything, portion or the whole document.
W President could declassify document and distribute it to a small group of people, correct?
Objection, sidebar.
10:01
WRT some questions below. First, Wells is introducing the Cheney telling Libby note to prove that Libby wasn't hiding the news that Cheney told him–this goes to the issue of obstruction (That is, he's showing the Libby didn't hide this conversation, he willingly gave up that document).
And WRT any possible meeting at CIA. I don't know that that refers to a Plame at CIA meeting. I think it might go to the issue of whether, others (such as Harlow) who met her at CIA would have necessarily known she was covert.
Short Recess. I'll start a new thread. Figure at least 10-15 minutes. Jeralyn thinks Walton had to go do some research.
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Fitz!
Go FDL! (And they better get to Judy in Disguise today cuz I can’t fake another day’s worth of injury to stay home.)
If the Fitz don’t glove, you must convict.
Thanks, Marcy and all the FDL team, for your ground-breaking work. I posted last night that Editor & Publisher recognized your important work in a paragraph.
Heheh, a Gannon mention… So he was subpoenaed to testify in front of the GJ?
Given the traffic here during the Libby trial, a few reminders to the regulars and words of welcome to newcomers might be in order. FDL’s comments are moderated, mostly to eliminate the mass spam that flies around the Internet. All comments run first through an automated spam filter, and if caught, are then checked by human moderators, because in addition to spam, the filters also catch regular comments from time to time.
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That’s also how Marcy makes her updates on the action in the courthouse. It keeps all the courtroom action in one place. (If she did it in the comments, her jewels would be scattered among our great questions and snark.) But have mercy on the servers, and don’t keep pounding away at them by reloading the page every 30 seconds to find The Latest New Thing. If she can wait 15 minutes to update, you can wait 15 minutes to reload.
Welcome to the ‘Lake! The water’s warm, so jump right in.
Yes, exactly. And the kind of professor with a command of many details whose lectures are so boring they make you contemplate ritual suicide. Lord, but that man drones on. I almost think he’s filibustering Fitz and trying to come across to the jury and the media as Mr. Responsible, not Mr. Imperial President.
The Aspens are turning.
Fitz!
Emptywheel!
Holy crap. Is that the stake through Scooter’s defense that I think it is?
NO SHIT!!
HeeHee indeed, a mention of “Jeff Gannon.” Those titters in the stands need to be kindled into righteous wrath!
The rest of this is EPU’d from the prev thread:
====================================
Richmond@16: “… people who claim to be journalists who are clearly not (Gannon/Guckert, Malkin etc.). …”
Malkin is sui generis (: or maybe I should have said sooo-eeee!! :) and I’m not discussing her in this post.
This is OT here, but I’ve been feeling it strongly over the past months: Why Oh WHY is no one in either the press or the blogosphere following up on Gannon/Guckert? And the hundreds of times he visited the White House, and the many tens of FEWER times he was seen in the Press Room? And what exactly he was doing there on the difference of those visits? (I don’t recall the #s) Huh? Is it a totally radioactive subject? Hmm?
… Or is there some recent-ish investigative reporting that I just haven’t seen? If so, link please. (I realize that the WH recently “classified” the Secret Service WH visit logs, presumably to shield against this and the Abramoff sort of inquiry. Funny how the neocons made great use of those same logs in the Clinton years…)
Now back to the “Judy, Judy, Judy” F. Miller show. “If you will.”
As we were.
(((ALL of FDL – you honor the Toobz)))
((((Jane))))
/a grateful Pup
O.K, I just got in and maybe I am a little slow this morning. Who is Addington saying he is “talking to” in this testimony? Like in “What else was said?” What conversation is this, with who? (I imagine it’s in yesterday’s thread, but I am too lazy to go look for it right now.)
beth meacham @ 10
Who is the “he” Addington was talking to? Was it Libby?
For those who want to click on some MSM reports of yesterday’s testimony (and one other report), here are some links:
LA Times: Fleischer then and now: There’s a telling difference
AP: Russert: Not Source of CIA Officer Leak
NYT: Ex-Bush Aide, in Testimony, Disputes Libby
WaPo’s Dana Milbank: Fleischer Handles Questioning in the Usual Fashion
Been up for hours reading yesterday’s testimony.
Amazing work going on here.
Re Addington, is it beginning to smell like it is Cheney, not Rove, who is throwing Libby under the bus?
I mean, wtf? Obviously Addington is enough of a lawyer in this respect to know how to cover his own *ss, but he is (unlike Fleisher) still employed….
Addington is really hung up on the SIZE of the offices he has and visits… Pach, what does that mean?
Dirty hippy? I dunno. From every recent appearance, Politics TV and C SPAN, there’s not a smidgen of evidence to support either claim. In fact, you look a little too respectable and way too attractive to merit either description.
Answering my own question (comment #14) — Addington WAS talking about conversation with Libby!
Wow. Addington actually volunteered this! I agree with other comment that Cheney must be throwing Libby under the bus!
Addington is the True Believer in this bunch ! Perle, Wolfowitz, Abrams, dilettantes all compared to this enabler. Cheney may be driving the bus over the cliff, but Addington is the ignition
okay, I’m done, sorry.
let’s see what Team Irving has in store for him
Rich @ 19
It sure seems that way to this spectator.
zeppo @ 13
Libby in particular with regards to the questions, but it looks like he may be speaking with both Libby and Cheney.
To wit:
This is History unfolding. Thanks EW, Pach, Christy, Jane, Jeralyn…and all the pups all in a row. Now I’ll disappear again and listen to the experts.
beth meacham @ 10
I’d say so…. it sounds to me Fitz is telegraphing the fact that on one of his visits to the CIA to pressure the analysts to come up with Iraq intelligence, Valerie PLAME introduced herself to Scooter Libby…
Well, we all know Cheney’s heart (weak and pitiful as it was) was replaced by a mechanical pump many years ago.
Obviously Libby was assigned a task, and obviously Libby f*cked up (following Cheney’s orders too much to the letter perhaps? Sort of like the mess in Iraq?) and so Libby must be punished, or rather hung out to dry…as an example. In other words, do what you have to do to get the job done, but just don’t get caught, which is just what Libby did, what with all his cutsey “hush, hush and on the qt” etc.
A more evil thought is that Cheney hid from Libby the truth as to Plame’s classification, (did Cheney originate the meme that she was just a paper pusher and her classification was at that point some sort of a formality?)
I know this is wildly speculative, but I gotta say that from my perspective, this testimony from Addington is weirder than Fleishers.
njr @ 17
sexual insecurity, plus self-grandeur ;-
I have finally learned the name of Fleischer’s attorney from Williams & Connolly, Bob Barnett. He is one of the biggest deal lawyers in DC–no wonder Ari got such a good immunity deal.
Adding to Peterr’s rules o’the road, remember, feeding the kitty is easy and fun to do…
top right o’the page.
Keep citizen journalism and democracy alive and kickin’ a–.
We’re still in sidebar. Apparently it’s Cheney’s b-day today, he’s turning 66.
Wells pushing on the declassification issue. Isn’t that irrelevant to the charges, ie looking more at IIPA or SF 312?
Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. A lawyer producing documents reviews ALL the documents that are relevant, including the privileged ones. The responsive but privileged documents are segregated and not produced — usually, a log of the privileged documents is prepared, listing the pertinent facts (to, from, subject, date, brief description of subject) necessary to establish that the document is privileged. This enables the subpoena-ing party to challenge the privilege designation (if, for example, the document was cc’d to someone outside the lawyer/client relationship). You don’t just accept the employee’s assertion that “you don’t need to look at these, they’re privileged.”
Of course, I suppose that the documents Addington didn’t bother to review might not have been attorney-client privileged. Perhaps they were subject to the “damaging” privilege.
emptywheel @ 29
Do you think they invited Scoots to the party?
Prairie Sunshine @ 28
…and if you’re not in a position to contribute financially, click on the advertising links — that helps ‘em too. :)
Looking forward to Judy Miller. I wonder if details will slip out about her alleged torrid affair with Scooter.
Seems like Addington says he gave Libby the info on classification and now he “washes his hands.”
.
and all along I thought it was 666
litigatormom @ 31
Wells says he worked out some kind of arrangement with the documents. Not sure whether Govt got the documents, though.
Uh oh. Touching on the company’s conspiracy.
emptywheel @ 29
er, uh, happy b-day(?) to the Deputy Leader?
Richmond @ 26
It’s not the SIZE of the office, it’s the motion.
Still in sidebar.
Likely EPU’ed on last thread, conversation between Imus and Barnicle this morning on MSNBC. Imus irate that neither Bush nor the “war criminal Chee-knee” were at the dedication of the Intrepid rehab center in SA.
Barnicle’s repy: they’re both too embarrassed to show their faces.
No scheiss. How ’bout humiliated? Overcome with regret and sorrow? Any emotion at all that might demonstrate these narcissistic arrogant thugs have human hearts at all?
Jane S,
thanks for the 411 re: Fleischer lawyers – was asking yesterday – now for the Google ;)
Something really weird is going on here. From what I’d read, my original impression was that that Cheney wore a bracelet saying “What would Addington do.” ;-) Of all people, I would have expected him to obfuscate and bob and weave. But this guy is just calmly burying Libby, and creating a LOT of curiosity about the VP. What the heck? Did he find Jesus?
Also, a LOT of this testimoney is coming dangerously close to the leak itself, not just the perjury. Is this intentional?
emptywheel @ 29
I think you mean 666.
p.lukasiak @ 24
agreed… it’s just not all that big an organization, and how many trips did Cheney and Libby make over there, and how hard were they pressing to get the intel reformed to their liking…
paths had to have crossed… I think.
Geez Louise! This looks like damning evidence. Why did Wells bring this up? Libby knew she worked in Counter Proliferation all the way back in June?!?!
I’m slightly off topic. I am worried that Dickerson’s piece is going to screw Fitz up. He says Ari’s account is wrong. It doesn’t really matter if Ari told them about Plame’s wife but Dickerson’s piece impeaches Ari’s ability to remember correctly what happened.
http://www.slate.com/id/2158157/entry/2158492/
Libby looked really drawn, tired, bags under his eyes first thing Monday morning. I’m not there today, but I’m guessing he didn’t sleep any better last night, either.
If Cheney is throwing Libby under the Fitz bus, No need to worry about him. They will appeal any conviction until the final days of our emperor and then he will get his pardon. Bush does not care if America jeers as a result.
oxide,
from all anecdotal observations, limited articles, there is every reason to believe this creature believes to it’s souless core that it is the smartest in the room and can out-fox Fitz -
Pachacutec — two things for you today, if possible:
1) Is it at all possible that Addington is a high-functioning Asperger’s? I have a theory here, bear with me for what looks like an insensitive question.
2) If you have the time to find and read Judy Miller’s “apologetics” post from Oct. 2005 explaining her Grand Jury testimony, could you give an opinion about what you see today in light of her explainer? I know you’re going to be swamped, but I value your opinion and her explanation brought on what I can only describe as cognitive dissonance. Ugh. [See “My Four Hours Testifying in the Federal Grand Jury Room”. The New York Times, October 16, 2005 - subscription required, may need an assist with this.]
Still still in sidebar.
Jane S. @ 47
I saw that. It’s possible that Ari said it and Dickerson, in his disinterest, only got the first part. For example,
ARI:”Psst, you should check out who sent Wilson on his trip.”
DICKERSON: (thinking “what a twit”)
“Yawn.”
ARI: “It was his wife!”
DICKERSON: (tuning out) “Whatever.”
emptywheel @ 52
Still munching popcorn here.
Still drinking half-caf/half-decaf espresso that I managed to burn here.
Peterr @ 54
litigatormom @ 53
I completely agree since we know how stupid all these media people are but can the Defense use this, or could it only be used on appeal? Or will they opt not to use it b/c they like Ari’s version better since it has him telling David Gregory which could mean Gregory told Russert and therefore makes Libby’s version more credible.
GrandmaJ @ 49
I am not so sure about that anymore. With one of the plays in the playbook looking like Libby is trying to put the blame on Rove, I was thinking that the pardon option is off the table.
I am thinking that NONE of these players are going to be speaking much to each other after this is all done.
You know, it might help some marriages if there were sidebars at needed moments.
Rayne @ 51
1. I suppose it’s possible, though I don’t have enough data or experience to render an opinion.
2. I won’t have time for that. Sorry. Trying to catch up with bidness today, and this week. I don’t expect to be in court again this week.
Jane S @ 47:
Read last thread re: Dickerson and his pieces.
Seersucker in January?? Tell us he’s not wearing white shoes too.
Jane S. from the previous post:
FDL and the plameologists have been all over this for sometime. I’m positive Fitz has been too. Dickerson has been writing about this for a while, so I know it didn’t catch Fitz by surprise. Per tyrgyth prior post, David Gregory is the tie breaker. Maybe Fitz has an affadavit from Gregory that supports Ari’s version.
Dickerson has his reaction to Ari’s testimony at
http://www.slate.com/id/2158157/entry/2158492/
The whole “if I heard about the wife, I would have taken the story for myself instead of giving it to Cooper who had heard about Plame from Rove” is definitely interesting and makes a whole lot of sense. I’m still unsure what to make of it all.
Sparkles the Iguana @ 61
That would be very Chevy Chase in Vacation.
Thanks #60 & #62. I am not vouching for the truth of either Ari or Dickerson–I was more worried about it being a surprise for the prosecution but you and CHS are right, maybe he got corroboration of Ari’s version from the other reporters, which makes Dickerson’s account embarassing.
CP/–his wife works in that division
Anyone else snort coffee through nose on Addington’s testimony here:
A Based on working at CIA, I had no idea. CP often refers to Colin Powell. It strikes met that that might be counter-proliferation.
Edit: How does he expect anyone to really believe this?
emptywheel @ 36 said, in response to my comment about document production:
I’ve produced documents to the government in criminal investigations, and until recently, prosecutors actually tried to pressure corporate and individual subjects and targets to waive attorney-client privilege if they wanted to “cooperate” with the investigation (and thus get more lenient treatment in any settlement). This caused such a furor in the legal community that the DOJ recently pulled back on this position.
Anyway, my point is, I can well imagine that Fitz agreed not to make the White House produce privileged documents, but I can’t imagine that he agreed that the producing lawyers didn’t even have to look at them. That’s just sloppiness. Frankly, not only does the producing lawyer — not the witness or potential subject/target — have to make the ultimate call on privilege, but as a the lawyer defending the the case, I want to know ALL the facts, even if they are contained in documents that will never see the light of day.
As a defense attorney, there is no such think as knowing too much. You have to have complete command of all the relevant facts, not just the facts that help you, or the facts that the other side is going to learn in discovery.
Oh. Wait. I get it. Facts. Addington is a neo-con. Complete command of all the facts is not what he’s about….
OT–Feingold’s hearing is on–listen link at
http://www.capitolhearings.org/
10 a.m. Judiciary To hold hearings to examine exercising Congress’
constitutional power to end a war. SD-226
Hatch is speaking, just interrupted by someone shouting from
the gallery
So, the only way libby gets his pardon is if the pres, and v.p are left standing. I think it is quite possible that neither will be able to pardon by the end of this trial. The thing is that “perfect” cover-ups of guilty people are not the norm. More likely that this all is discombobulated because they are all pointing fingers and scared.
It’s like hot potatoe(like my republican spelling??), Libby’s got the potatoe and he’s trying desperately to hand it off, but no one will take it. Underneath it all, the truth still exists and that truth is that most likely this administration engaged in a conspiracy to out plame for her role in uncovering the Bush doctrine and in the cover-up. There will be no one to pardon…in the end. We are just going to have to ride the whole thing through…and I second the motion that we keep looking at Guckert/Gannon. I think that ties into the sex scandal. It’s an administration writhe with addictions.
Any bets on whether Judy wears a Gloria Swanson “ready for my closeup” turban and mink stole to the trial?
Rayne.
my initial response to your mention of Asperger’s was dismissal – but as I went through some of the DSM-IV, etc. there were one or two things that jumped out – might be something there – though his secretive-not-wanting-to-be-photographed shtick is way outside the usual grasp of these folks
believe regular ReneeinOhio would be a good starting point as she deals with it daily in a loved one
Jane S. @ 65
EPU’d from last thread:
Biodun @ 85
emptywheel @ 29
let him eat yellowcake…
#72. Thanks for this.
njr @ 45
So, what are you both saying? That Libby possibly knew that Valerie was CIA AND her status even BEFORE Martin told him & Cheney?
watertiger @ 70
Ooo! Ow! What an image! But oddly, very on target.
varney,
crikey ! Waxman on CSpan 1
Teddy on CSpan 2
Hagel on Cspan 3
and Judas Miller about to take the stand – my oh my firepups
Ed*ard Teller @ 73
I hope it’s a miserable f**kin’ experience.
watertiger @ 70
I’m betting she wears a tee-shirt that says “ASPEN.”
Must have been entirely too warm in the courthouse yesterday if Fitz’s breaking out the spring suits already. A guy’s guy, you know? The kind of guy who puts function before form.
Pachacutec — thanks much anyhow. Wondered if a high-functioning Aspie’s wouldn’t realize they were rambling, and might also not ken the social aspects of the decisions they make, looking only at results as facts rather than impacts on humans due to a disconnect in processing empathy.
Anybody else out there got a background in psychology or psychiatry? That Miller article continues to bug me nearly 18 months later; something in it just doesn’t make sense.
Walton is still in his office. So it’ll be several more minutes yet before we get going again here.
FTR
I don’t think Fitz’ suit IS seersucker. I think it looks like it on the closecircuit.
I seems to me the Libby defense is in what for Super Bowl Week might be called a “prevent” defense. they seem willing to give up the short passes (i.e. the prosecution points indicating falsehoods by Libby) to prevent a touchdown (i.e. rekindling an IIPA or conspiracy charge.)
That, imo, does not mean they concede the perjury or obstruction charges–they wouldn’t have gone to trial if that were the case–just they are relying on obfuscation and confusion on the part of at least one jury member and they sure as hell don’t want any further problems. We’ll know for sure if Libby doesn’t take the stand.
At any rate, a even Miami Dolphins fans like Libby and Ari can tell you, prevent defenses are notorious for backfiring.
Okay, Walton back. Just a few minutes now.
Marcy (82) — interesting, says the CCTV resolution is pretty grainy. Is it affecting perception of facial expressions on folks at a distance from the camera?
Christy,
Your essay this morning “The Public’s Dilemma” – YES! I re-read “Why This Matters” Sunday. You’ve done such laudable and important work here.
watertiger @ 70
Actually I can totally see Judy in a turban. A kaffiyeh, even. Maybe paired with a Diane von Furstenburg wrap dress.
Just as long as she’s not carrying a little dog in a tote.
froggermarch- so good to see you on these threads again – firedogs coming home to roost!
Rayne @ 80
I believe kirk murphy is a psychiatrist, if he’s around.
Rayne, I can’t get to the article…What is it that strikes you??
she named the dog Pinch*g*
emptywheel @ 29
I know what I want for my birthday!! .. a dick in a box. But not just any dick and not just any box. I want the read deal in the witness box at Prettyman Courthouse. Sounds kinky doesn’t it? Well I’m not going there. This is about truth, justice and the American way.
Per Libby’s note to Ari Mouthpiece…
Libby’s a Yankee fan too?
Scooter is part of the evil empire? Maybe he played shortshop with the real Scooter
Jack
Ed*ard at 86 — Aw, thanks. Really appreciate it. :)
EW – is Nina Totenberg there? Lack of any reporting from her this morning on NPR.
oxide @ 43
Or, have the VP and his buddies conspired to pin as much as possible of this on Scooter, and he’ll take the fall (and very possibly get a pardon later)?
The only problem with the scenario I’ve presented is that too much juicy and incriminating information is coming out of this trial so far. Perhaps they knew they couldn’t keep a lid on all of it. But still, Cheney, Rove and pals cannot be happy about the testimony so far. A lot of light has been shed so far on what they were doing, and you must wonder what additional charges may be filed as a result of info learned in testimony.
Oh, and to Dick Cheney: I hope a lot of your colleagues tell you to “Go F**k Yourself” for your birthday.
EW: from yesterday, was Libby’s dolphin letter to Fleischer admitted as an exhibit? I didn’t see anythink similar on Fitz’s document dump site…
Bay State Librul @ 92
Yeah I was in the courtroom, and I was like, “Pft! Figures. Fucking Yankee fans. Figures.”
cbl @ 88
Thanks cbl! I was lurking over the holidays, but haven’t checked in for awhile until the trial. But you can’t have a frogmarch without me, and I feel one coming on!
Marcy- Got your book yesterday & very happy!
Christy Hardin Smith @ 95
ReddHedd for U.S. House in 2008! Hypnotise her into it, Howie.
Ed*ard Teller @ 95
Au contraire, I heard an imho good piece from her about 8:20AM EST today.
Nina Totenberg had a very good report on the Vermont NPR this morning. Very detailed and accurate, so far as I could tell.
gawd- I almost don’t care about the outcome of the trial. After seven years of watching these hubritic thugs lie, dissemble, smear, slime, etc…my schadenfreudic index is off the charts watching these guys be subjected to Fitz is almost more than I can bear. I hope this goes on for months…notwithstanding the superhuman efforts and deprivations of the bloggers from these hallowed halls of firedoglake.
Again, thanks so much!
Cog. dissonance can work. The classic study on it was basically if you paid people well to do a task, they will tell you the tasked sucked while if you didn’t reward people, they would make up all these reasons why the task was worthwile. Thus, the researches postulated that people are compelled to rationalize dissonant cognitions, and don’t even realize they are doing it.
As for Asperger’s, that’s tricky. Even high fuctioning individuals have serious social delays, which makes it possible for them to become the occasional university professor but politics would be out of the norm, shall we say.
new thread.
emptywheel @ 82
That’s good. Seersucker is a lightweight Memorial Day to Labor Day style suit. I can’t imagine Atticus Finch being out of step with with any minor detail, including the appropriate sartorial selection.
Also in regard to aspergers. It would seem to me highly unlikely that someone with aspergers would make it into a political or legal forum because of the need for social skills.
I have worked with several clients with the disorder and have a nephew with it. They can be highly intelligent and often very narrowly focused. However most of the time they lack the social skills to be promoted up the ladder. That said, he could have something like Obessessive compulsive disorder which can be devastating but can come in milder forms and can be medicated successfully in some so that, their indiosyncracies are less obvious.
I have never worked with someone with Aspergers where you could not tell there was something “very odd”. I am not saying it’s not possible but it strikes me as unlikely.
neil @ 18
As “tens of thousands” of middle americans marched by the “2 dozen pro-war protesters” on Saturday, one very pouchy man who had a gas mask on held a sign that said “go home you dirty hippies”. It was quite funny since 50% of the crowd was over 40 and relatively well dressed middle class americans marching (juat as it was before the invasion. This sterotype just will not work any longer. I thought the guy in the mask looked like Karl Rove,
Thanks for describing Fitz’s suit and Addingtons tie. I get so tired of Matthews and other talking heads making comments about Hillary and Pelosi’s clothing, without mentioning the men expressing themselves through their choice in ties and suits
.
At the anti-war/pro-peace march on Saturday around
katie Jensen @ 108
Larry Summers at Harvard supposedly had/has it, and he has held administrative positions which are political in some sense, and also, involving economics.
emptywheel @ 29
Happy Birthday, Dick.
So, what are you both saying? That Libby possibly knew that Valerie was CIA AND her status even BEFORE Martin told him & Cheney?
Marcy disagrees….. but I think that Scooter met valerie PLAME at the CIA, but didn’t make the connection to Joe Wilson until much later — like June 12, the day that Cheney told Libby that Valerie was CPD (and the day after Cathie Martin told him that Wilson’s wife worked at the CIA)
Is it me, or is Addington volunteering a lot of stuff that makes Libby look really bad?
The part about the hand gestures didn’t need to be said–he could have just “forgotten” that.
The whole conversation about the IIPA should have been forgotten. “He asked me about something. I remember I brought him something about it. I don’t remember the specifics of the conversation.”
Terry Olson @ 111
One of my favorite signs at the march said “send Bush hunting with Cheney”
Can hardly wait for “I was —-ing right” JM
Rayne @ 51
Re your first question: what would change if one knew for certain that Addington does “have” Asperger’s?
(Newbie)
I haven’t noticed any mention of this – remember when Cheney went on the teevee to “apologize” for shooting his buddy? The real purpose of that interview was to make the statment that the VP can declassify info. IMHO, that was a set-up for this defense. Yes, Scooter leaked, but the VP had already de-classified! Didn’t even have to be the President! Didn’t even have to do any paperwork!
Marcy,
It was great meeting you at the Hawk and Dove on Saturday night. I am really enjoying your book!!
My wife didn’t fall for the comment you wrote in the front cover. HAHA
Keep up the great work!
Greg
Richmond @
110
My son has it, and adults find him to be wonderfully intelligent and engaging, and are often surprised to hear he has social challenges, but he seems “quirky” when with his elementary school peers. He does have a difficulty seeing things from other people’s perspective, unless it is spelled out quite clearly to him.
Pachacutec @ 11
Game, set, match…
And from the mouth of Scooter’s replacement
Rayne, my first thought when I read about Addington was Asperger’s as well. I’m not a psychologist but have had a lot of experience with people with the disorder and, perhaps because of my lack of expertise, am obviously not shy about diagnosing from a distance. I also had the strong feeling about Alito when he was being confirmed.
katie jensen, kristinejoy — thanks for the feedback. If I can dig up a copy of Miller’s article, I may ask for help if you don’t mind. Appreciate the assist.
SaltinWound — so I wasn’t the only one? the personality that Marcy described through her live blogging sounded like a couple of people I know who are in the technical field that are geniuses at what they do, but have limitations when it comes to understanding personal matters. Empathy is a challenge for them, everything is argued from a perspective of utility, economy, effectiveness.
djinn — would change nothing to know this in the course of this trial but in subsequent trials. Would be valuable to know going forward if Addington remains in his current role for the next two years. Think of it this way: to convey information to differently abled people, we have to provide information in a manner that is accessible. For someone blind, it’s in Braille or audible; for someone deaf, it’s written or visual. For someone who cannot “see” social context, we must present context they can “see”. Look at how Addington is literally dumping information, holding nothing back; do you think that this is the normal response of most partisan members of this administration, of the folks who are Bush’s and Cheney’s closest enablers? I don’t think so; I think there would be more hedging or qualified testimony, more like that Martin gave. Is this because Addington doesn’t “see” the social context? And is this useful in future investigations?
CIA and FBI do psychographic profiles for a reason; I’m merely encouraging our own profile while we have the opportunity.
Richmond (110) — makes sense now, the problems he had with women and technology. He looked only at the data about women and not at the social issues behind those numbers. Damn if that doesn’t encapsulate the problem.
Rich (119) — thanks for sharing that; in some ways, high functioning Aspergerger’s can be a lot like ADD/ADHD, in my experience with a both my child and my stepchild with these challenges. Difficult to get through some times although for slightly different reasons. With ADD/ADHD, it’s getting them to calm their circuits long enough to absorb, or present it in a manner they can take up quickly, along with consistent reinforcement.
There is a form of ADHD/ADD called the Overfocused Child that is similar in appearance to a high functioning Asperger’s without the more autistic symptomology.
Maybe the VP means he wanted to call Valeri Plame re uranium
emptywheel @ 29
Which is proof positive that only the good die young.
kristinejoy (124) — wow, that might be exactly what my stepson has had; I can remember him having a single-minded focus on certain things to the point of exasperation, which didn’t jibe with his otherwise ADD-like inability concentrate for long on other things. Lot of difficulty with switching gears, too, needed consistency. ??
Come to think of it, describes my son, too, although a milder case, might be due to environmental factors.
Reading eReposte’s excellent article reminded me of the relationship between Cheney and the New York Times regarding WMD. As you remember, Cheney defended the WMD charge by quoting an article published in the Times even though he knew the article was based on questionable intel that his administration leaked. Here’s a timeline:
April 10, 2001: A report containing research provided by a CIA analyst known only as Joe reaches top Bush administration officials. It claims that aluminum tubes being sought by Iraq are meant for uranium centrifuges.
September 7, 2002: Judith Miler of The New York Times reports Bush administration officials said “In the last 14 months, Iraq has sought to buy thousands of specially designed aluminum tubes, which American officials believe were intended as components of centrifuges to enrich uranium.”[4] In fact, many government officials had concluded the tubes were unsuitable for uranium refinement.
September 7-8, 2002: President Bush and nearly all his top advisers blanketed the airways, talking about the dangers posed by Iraq.[5]
On NBC’s “Meet the Press,” Vice President Richard Cheney cited the New York Times article, and accused Saddam of moving aggressively to develop nuclear weapons over the past fourteen months to add to his stockpile of chemical and biological arms.
The tubes were key, and what was so important too was the timing. Vice President Cheney having The New York Times in front of him, saying: “If you don’t believe what I say, refer to The New York Times today.”
Dunno if I’m too late to this party for htis to matter but…
I have a mild form of Asperger’s – I’m pretty functional and managed to rise to a prominent position in marketing (NB: 1. I’m an engineer/computer scientist by training 2. It was highly technical b2b marketing). But in social situations I have to constantly monitor myself; it aint easy and I occasionally make people cry. Hey, I don’t intend to, it just seems to happen.
Addington aint in politics, he’s behind it, around it, under it. People like us (if indeed A. is similarly “afflicted”) can do very very well when we’re only dealing with a few individuals an especially when those few individuals share similar obsessions.
In short, I have no reason to believe A.’s imputed diagnosis would be a barrier to his positions and roles in the neo-con PU that is the GOP.
susan (108) — yeah, Miller was a cut-out.
And running in tandem with the faction inside the CIA cooking the books on intel, there’s the universal fascists stealing letterhead, forging the Niger docs, and weaving them in and out of the conventional wisdom being developed that also gathers the aluminum tube CW.
Notta Flatlander — thanks very much for sharing your experience and observation. I’ve worked in technology for years now, have observed a number of folks elevated to upper management in technical industries because of their technical gifts and in spite of Asperger-like symptoms; the best of them were able to mediate their symptoms while encouraging their subordinates’ technical excellence. I know upper echelons are attainable, but generally not in the public eye.
p.lukasiak @
24
My take on this is that Fitz is pointing out that Libby was already evaluating a possible defense option regarding his leaking of Plame’s identity. Rather than asserting that he obtained Plame’s identity FROM a reporter (i.e. that he didn’t KNOW she was a CIA employee until then) he was looking into ways of protecting himself by saying that the fact of her “covert nature” was either absent in documents or by someone who asked her and then passed that information on to him (i.e. she outed herself). This might be the “cocktail party circuit” Defense (or everyone knew) Defense that he was exploring.
But that assumes that he DID know Plame worked at the CIA from other than Tim Russert, and that he simply wasn’t confused on this score. He couldn’t be! Unless he is exploring the protecting TIMMEE from Prosecution ;-) and that Timmee told him that Plame told him (Russert) that she worked for the CIA! That explanation for Libby’s questions is so bizarre that no juror would ever believe it.
C’mon! Tim Russert told Libby that Natalie Plame herself told him that she worked for the CIA! ROTFL!!!
emptywheel @
29
He’s reached retirement age…expect an announcement!
cbl @
35
I wonder if he’s blowing out the candles…with his shotgun!
SharonW @
46
“TOOK PLACE AT OUR BEHEST!”
I wonder what the mysterious statement “Functional Office – CP – His wife works in that Divsion means”??? What’s a “functional office”??
Terre @
75
Very obviously so from Libby’s own note dated JUNE 12th. They both knew not only that she was CIA, but that she worked in the CPD (and that doesn’t mean “Colin Powell’s Den”) AND they also knew Wilson’s name before it was ever presented in the media ~ even though his name had been deleted from the CIA reports.
Martin’s telling Libby and the VP that she was a CIA agent was no big deal to them…they both already knew. She wasn’t THEIR ORIGINAL SOURCE. But Fitz presented her simply to show that Libby knew, again and again and again, that “Wilson’s wife” worked at the CIA. He’s using each instance as a nail to seal the coffin. And making the case that dealing with the Wilson imbroglio WAS a very important part of Libby’s activities during that time period…ranking even above the meeting with Tome Cruise!
dab from CT @
120
Wells: “You are now Mr. Cheney’s Chief of Staff…Mr. Libby’s former job…is that not true?” A: “Yes”
Wells: “And Mr. Libby was likely indicted partially as a result of your testimony, is that not true?” A: “I don’t know?”
Wells: “Mr. Libby lost his job, the one you are now in, because he was indicted…True?” A: “Yes”
Wells: “And your office now is bigger than your Office that you had as the Vice President’s Counsel?” A; “Yes, it is!”