
How do you know those polls showing an ever-increasing majority of the American public wants U.S. troops out of Iraq aren't a mirage? Mike Glover of the Associated Press reported from Iowa this afternoon:
Hillary Rodham Clinton said Sunday that President Bush has made a mess of Iraq and it is his responsibility to "extricate" the United States from the situation before he leaves office.
. . . "This was his decision to go to war with an ill-conceived plan and an incompetently executed strategy," the Democratic senator from New York said her in initial presidential campaign swing through Iowa.
"We expect him to extricate our country from this before he leaves office" in January 2009, the former first lady said.
. . . "I am going to level with you, the president has said this is going to be left to his successor," Clinton said. "I think it is the height of irresponsibility and I really resent it."
Meanwhile, Hope Yen of the AP told us earlier today:
The Senate Foreign Relations Committee chairman on Sunday dismissed criticism a resolution opposing a troop buildup in Iraq would embolden the enemy and estimated perhaps only 20 senators believe President Bush "is headed in the right direction."
"It's not the American people or the U.S. Congress who are emboldening the enemy," said Sen. Joe Biden, D-Del., and White House hopeful in 2008. "It's the failed policy of this president — going to war without a strategy, going to war prematurely."
Hmmm… anybody hear an echo in here? What's encouraging, though, isn't just that Clinton and Biden can read the polls, it's that they're using the right kind of language to reframe the debate, just as Sen. Jim Webb did in his response to the State of the Union address on Tuesday.
When I wrote a month ago on this subject, I said:
Dubya isn't insane (at least not entirely) — he (or Cheney or Rove, or whoever) is making a calculated gamble that the long-term benefit of sticking with the "resolve" narrative will overcome the short-term unpopularity of escalating the war… and that whatever fuss they might raise, Democrats won't be able to make them pay a permanent price for it.
. . . The way to change things, as I've written incessantly here, is to upend the tough-versus-weak GOP frame in favor of reality/results versus fantasy and false promises. . . . Dubya's stance is not really resolve but the weakness of someone too insecure and afraid to admit a mistake.
In the post just below, Jane worried about today's anti-war protests, saying that "with a war opposed now by some 75% of the country, I'm not sure having it promoted as a 'fringe left' cause was the absolute best plan." Whatever your feelings about Hillary and Joementum Jr., their comments today are a good starting point for an antidote. Without a Wurlitzer of our own, Democratic politicians need to create their own echo chamber, seizing the language of responsibility, strength, and being on the side of the American people while identifying Bush/Cheney and their policies — quite correctly — with weakness and defeat.
The more they do that, the more they will change the political calculus, making Dubya seem smaller and more paralyzed the longer he resists the new course set by the Democrats in Congress. Which will either force him to give in or make it politically easier for the Dems to take the car keys away.
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If an FDL post goes up at an unusual time, does anyone hear it “Fitz”?
JANE!
SWOPA!!
DELBERT!
SWOPA, JANE, CHRISTY!
Now we’re talking!
Terribly unfair of Bush to suggest he’d leave his mess for presidential hopefuls to clean up.
Exposition Blvd!
That’s where it is.
Swopa, This is the BIG issue of the day. Does Bush escalate or can the presure of fom the Seante, House and popular opinion get him to re-think his up-the-ante strategy. We must keep this issue #1.
presque vu @ 6
I believe that’s what Bush refers to as a long term business plan.
Hillary and Biden. I will remain calm.
ED BEGLEY JR! Ooops, wrong window, uh hi firepups!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 10
It was a bit intentionally provocative of me to put big pictures of them at the top of the post, I admit.
I’m in. What are we talking about?
Balrog @ 13
Swopa’s trying to make folks puke all over the comments thread with life size busts of Biden and Shrillary.
I would have to ask Clinton: Senator, why EXACTLY do want to be prez? And don’t aggravate with the usual Hillary-speak. And why for the last six years have you been enabling the “vast right-wing conspiracy”?
Way to go Swopa!
When we re-elect President Al Gore I am confident he’ll be happy to figure out how Senators Biden and Clinton can best serve his administration.
Re-Elect Al Gore for President 2008
Accept No Substitutes!
Fer cryin out loud, didn’t Biden get busted for plagiarizing his speeches in his previous run for POTUS? Did he think that would go away? Man, if we dont get a good candidate to run next year I’m gonna be mad. Feingold’s out, I got no one.
I watched a cool movie last night. Friend of mine scored me an Oscar preview copy of Pan’s Labyrinth.
Scary movie; definitely not for kids or squeamish adults. But very well made an powerful stuff.
I believe Pan the Faun is a relative of Balrog from the looks of him.
I’ll give it Four Orcs (out of five).
Biden says credit card corporations are people too. Hillary says watch me bite the head off this snake.
Swopa @ 12
Borderline devious.
Fini FiniTOOBZ! @ 14
Swopa? Is this true?
Aak, it is!
Better than Cheney and Goofus, anyway.
I think the time has come to take the car keys away. Really… what more does team W have to do to make it obvious that they have lost control.
Impeachment is a POLITICAL solution. Yes, there needs to be an underlying high crime or misdemeaner, but the burden of proof is nowhere near that of a criminal court. Our founding fathers gave us this “escape valve” for exactly the situation we are now in — with a dry drunk at the wheel.
newspaperbrat @ 17
I like what he has to say but I still and will always have reservations about Al Gore because of Tipper Gore’s involvement in the PMRC in the 80s. That shit was a defining moment in my young life – I will never forget her influence on then-Sen. Gore and his BFF Joe Liarman.
My contempt for Joe Lieberman and John McCain knows no bounds.
I am not sure if it was because they heard the people, or if it is because they heard other Dems who were ahead of THEM in the polls who have come out against the war.
Sadly, I just don’t trust either one of them to do much more than lip synch on this.
On Friday, Hoyer did his little dance on Iraq. Like everybody, he said tinpot was incompetent, etc. but blamed the ‘international community’ for not supporting the US going into Iraq ( I guess forcing the nitwit to go it alone) and saying it was now their responsibility to get us out. Every single rep who voted for this guy needs to be outed and made to pay.
I don’t know why it took so long for me to come up with it, but my new descriptor for Bush is ‘pathetic’ – not that it helps me sleep any better.
It sure is nice to see Jane’s by-line back on these pages!
my mantra – must convince russ feingold to run for the WH – must convince russ feingold to run for the WH….. just saying
Richmond @ 24
There have got to be more substantial issues that these two could work on together. Are people still permitted to burn Old Glory?
Balrog @
18
Saw it last night with my step-daughter…excellent film
juslin @ 27
Maaaaaaan I’d love it! Not this time though, not this time…[sigh]
It is usually the people who lead and the politicos who follow and wallow.
john in california @ 25
Don’t know what’s worse Hoyer as leader, or Lieberman as senator, or Tim Johnson’s illness…
john in california @ 25
Steny Stenographer Hoyer – the Hoyer Lift. He does the heavy lifting so you don’t have to. He got tons of votes from our democratic representatives. The ones who didn’t vote for him would make a shorter list.
AZ Matt @ 31
unfortunately, this time the one political asshat of the century is leading us all straight into hell
I’ve been thinking a good logo/button for anyone up against Clinton in the primaries would be a simple triangle with the red ‘Ghostbusters’ slash across it. I suppose only us political junkies would understand, but it would probably spark a number of conversations.
You’re right that this is a hopeful sign, Swopa. I just hope that change can happen quickly enough to make a difference. We’ll see. Meanwhile, putting the onus where it belongs, on the Bush Administration for getting us into the conflict in the first place and then screwing it up, is the first step.
No “do overs” Senator? Can’t argue with that. How about calling for a pullout from Iraq? Right now you’re letting a Republican Senator (Hagel) beat the crap out of you on Iraq. And you’re telling us to vote for you because you will provide strong leadership. Well Hillary, I could be rude, but I won’t be. For now.
Fini FiniTOOBZ! @ 23
I’m not exactly clear what you are accusing Tipper Gore of doing in the 1980s – unless you are referring to her distain for violent music lyrics. Maybe you could help me out here.
America, welcome to our left wing cause. Hope you stay a long time.
And anyone else noticed the amazing amount of war coverage—covering the bad shit—on TeeVee and print media over the last week or two? The wind has changed when the media is willing to produce reports that focus on the scary, the negative, and the terrible. This was true during Vietnam: it was the shift in media coverage that changed the opinion of mass-market America.
OKK- I said this before, but you may have missed it. You’ve come a long way, babe. (recalling your earlier questions as to why not support Clinton). Sorry if I am misremembering, but yes or no, I agree.
Balrog @ 18
This was a tough one to watch. The violence in it is very intense and personal. You can easily put yourself in the shoes of a little girl who wants to live in a fantasy world when that kind of thing was going on around her.
Yes, it’s definitely not for young children, and I think older children should be accompanied by an adult.
Don’t mean to snark, but (well just to raise an issue). We have Hilly advertising on the site now (upper right). I know we need the money here, but I hope we won’t see “support hilly” drives for this reason. The Repugs and the DCCC have tried to buy off media in the past. THere is bound to be a new media drive too.
And on another note. I was just over at Drudge (nothing much except Reid on land it seems) but I did notice that his ads seem to be way down (or is this my imagination?).
. . . “I am going to level with you, the president has said this is going to be left to his successor,” Clinton said. “I think it is the height of irresponsibility and I really resent it.”
She thinks he should clean up the House before she moves back in. And she doesn’t mind the war, just that he’s not winning it. She probably complains about the way Bill takes out the trash, too.
HotFlash @ 44
Ouch!!
Richmond @ 43
Taylor Marsh has been doing a series of articles about Sen. Clinton and blog ads. I think she sees the issue far differently than you do:
http://www.taylormarsh.com/arc…..p?id=25082
Disclaimer: I don’t support myself or my blog through ads, and I don’t have anything to do with any other blogs besides being a reader or commenter.
Does Congress’ support for the troops in the field necessarily mean continuing to pay for the mercs and contractors?
Maybe we can help the Iraqis with that standing up thing by letting them pay for Blackwater.
OT, but Kirk has a long and interesting comment below thread on his experience with agents provacateur.
newspaperbrat @ 38
From Wikipedia
To call it simply disdain for violent music lyrics is a massive understatement. She and the PMRC were seeking the active violation of the First Amendment to outright censor artistic expression. As a young musician at the time, I remember the fear and loathing that swept through the musician community.
This was nothing less than a direct assault on the First Amendment, and Al Gore led the hearings in which Frank Zappa, Dee Snyder, and John Freaking Denver of all people heroically defended the rights of musicians to express themselves without having to report to a state censorship bureau like Soviet musicians had to at the time. I was glued to CSPAN the summer they held those hearings and was riveted by John Denver’s impassioned plea to leave musicians to do their work unimpeded.
Richmond @ 43
Around here, the ads are the ads, the content is the content. Free speech and all that. You are free to click on the ad (I think there are a few cents per click-through). From Hill’s purse to Jane’s. If Jane or Howie or anyone here aske you for one cent from Hill, I will eat my hat and post the video on YouTube. I will then find a new blog to hang out at.
Richmond @ 43
Our fearless Ladies of the lake made it abundantly clear when Hill’s ad first appeared that it did not signal implied support. I rather hope she takes out bigger ads – hear she has a whole lot of money in her campaign account.
The comment I made on the last thread on air americas call-in report got me to looking for other evidence that bush IS acually going to hit Iran.Found a bunch.The most telling is the question put by a navy guy to his freind”why put a swabbie in charge of 2 grunt wars?”"Because the most savage reaction of Iran will be to the oil platforms,Infrastructure,Straits of Hormuz ect.the main load will be carried by the navy…way it is working out we will have 4 flattops off the Iranian coast mid-feb
I do not want that woman in the peoples house.All she is ,is repug lite.The thought of her in charge when we are trying to put ourselfs right after bush starts ww3 and we are all getting to see what the inside of a [greater] depression looks like dont give me the warm fuzzys
thanks VG -
my FBI file has the story, why shouldn’t the Lake?
Hillary’s team knows how to frame. As Rayne pointed out in the post below, “We should be kicking more serious ass and taking names, doing a better job at promoting our issue than any corporation does its product.”
Hillary’s been careful to mention supporting the troops before most Iraq utterances. Her team is trying to frame the debate just as they did successfully for Bill.
Yes, Swopa, it’s good that someone knows how to beat the Corpo-ratwingers at their messaging. But we already have experienced the seismic shift offerred by moving from GOP to GOP-Lite. It registers 1.0 on the seismometer, which makes a mockery of all the lives sacrificed while Bush cleared brush and The DLC Duo were busy getting their hair polyurethaned.
I need a motivation to march, to fight, to vote in November 2008. Biden & Clinton & even Webb don’t provide that.
I hope the Netroots can mount a better frame that captures the minds & hearts of middle America, offline and on.
kirk murphy @ 53
I think its safe to say anyone with any connection here has an FBI file by now with the NSA shit thats been going on.
So, Hillary’s point is that even though she voted to give Bush the discretion and authority to start this war, she resents the fact that he choses to leave resolution of the war to the next President, who just might be . . .
That’s the most irresponsible thing she could possibly say, except for the time she said “aye.”
Move over Oklahoma kiddo.
What I love about this place is that they let us say pretty much anything we like. And, we try real hard not to hurt one another (most of the time). I didn’t mean to be mean in that snark. But Hilly has huge dough (from corps, countries, and countless others) and part of her agenda is to spread herself all over. I know we are an honest lot here. Yet I also know how nefarious money can be. When the drug companies do innocuous things like buy meals for interns, over time.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t take Hilly’s money. But I think she played a key role in Lieberlier’s election. And, notice who don’tfeel they need to advertise here (Clark, Edwards, Obama, Gore etc.).
Frankly I heard her speech on C-Span from the disgusting beginning of her event with the star spangled banner (fake patriotism) to her god awful ideas about parents (not schools) being responsible for education and people needing to take responsibility for their health. Ya, OK, but there is alot out there in terms of environment, lousy drug pushing (all that estrogen to keep wrinkles away – remember – alas, huge uptick in breast cancer). So Hilly doesn’t cut it with me. Period.
Fini — you know, back in the day I wasn’t too keen on Tipper’s work for PMRC, either.
But now I have a nine-year-old and a 13-year-old; damn if that doesn’t change your mind.
I think as a parent this household is an autocracy; I have a right to know what comes into my house meets my ethical standard, and if it doesn’t, I have a right to know that I need to be prepared to discuss it with my kids. Violence, for example — the level of violence in entertainment has become exponentially gratuitous since the late ’80’s. Sexuality has become disposable (good God, Paris Hilton’s and Britney Spear’s cootchie all over the place, couldn’t even imagine such bizarre overexposure twenty years ago). I didn’t used to think that we should draw a line, but the standard of the overall community was much different and my perspective as a then-non-parent was different.
It’s a different day, I guess. I have to use a different standard. In the scope of things to be outraged about, Tipper’s past track record isn’t worth my hassle compared to the government spying on my electronic communications, monitoring my location, building and deploying concentration camps on our nation’s soil, occupying a sovereign nation in a civil war with no end in sight…
Tipper’s a piece of cake.
Has anyone heard any rumblings about centrist Repubs interested in jumping the aisle?
What about legality of assigning Lie-ing-fuck’s committees to anyone who does?
Look, we just went through the K Street nightmare; there must be someone willing to cross over for NBA Finals tickets, or Hawaii golf passes.
Olympia Snowe (great name)? Collins? Hagel? Bueller?
In Sunday’s New York Times, Joe Trippi had this to say, “The Internet can spontaneously combust a dark-horse candidacy that can take everyone out,” said Joe Trippi, who managed Mr. Dean’s campaign. “Everybody is sure it’s going to be Hillary, Edwards or Obama, but my guess is that someone no one is talking about right now is going to give these three the scare of their life.”
Oh, please, please let Joe be right!
susan (60) – from your lips to the ears of the cosmos.
I hope that dark horse is listening.
Scarecrow @ 56
Plus, according to Hillary, it may or may not have been a good idea to topple evil dictator Saddam Hussein who may or may not have had anything to do with 911 depending on whether or not you are a Faux Newz afficionado or not.
hackworth @ 62
Yup to both of ya’s
JOHN IN CA… Wow I missed that outburst from AIPAC Hoyer (noting well, this was while Pelosi was out touring the ME). Do you have link please? Thx.
Oh yeah — progressives just think about that 2009 date~! Combine that with Hillary (and possibly/highly likely the rest of the DLC) not wanting a to stop a surge so allowing the building of those permanent bases, and secondly not wanting to vote for stopping (even strongly advocating for the OVERSIGHT) of funds to finance those permanent bases.!!!!
Think people — lots and lots of DINO (possibly paid) crap is going to swimming around the netroots during the next few months.
susan @ 60
On Trippi. What brought Dean down was Kerry (according to rumors) and MSM. They are the one’s who created & pushed the “scream.”
I’m starting to think that busting people for their original vote on the war may have run its course.
I’m guessing that a show of hands here at the lake would reveal several of us with double standards, as we were presented with the same BS intelligence as the politicians.
Difference being, it is much harder for a Pol to admit mistake/flip-flop than it is for me. Or you.
Going forward I intend to look not for past voting records, nor for proper Mea Culpa, but for plans to rectify normal human mistakes. Some of our heroes have done so in a humble manner; all of them should. We really do need to be looking forward to solve this mess.
Balrog @ 59
Oh.God.Please
Rayne @ 58
See I have no problem back then or now with your position. In fact, it is the position I hold myself to be honest with you. Let me explain this a little better.
Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES is it EVER ok to advocate and lobby for STATE SANCTIONED CENSORSHIP. The compromise that was struck between the labels and the PMRC that defused the situation after those hearings was the creation and adoption by the industry of the Parental Advisory label which is used to this day. This is reasonable and responsible for the labels to do this and I have no problem with it.
I believe parents should do their job better, and having a Parental Advisory label to help them, having the V Chip in TVs and satellite receivers, having a ratings system for video games, these are all reasonable, voluntary solutions that parents can rely on to defend their values theyve instilled in the kids. I just dont want a government bureaucrat deciding what artists and their business partners can release. That is a free market issue, if the people want it they should have access to it, but only if they are old enough to decide for themselves without parental advice.
Just because I’m up late, I’ll stick this in here. I’ll re-post when I wake up for the people who sometimes look for the NYT stuff in the morning, but Bob Herbert brought me along on the DC march…
http://mgpaquin.blogspot.com/
Sleep well, pups.
Zappa in that music-ratings fight can be found on YouTube.
I think Tipper, along with most of the public, no longer sweats the language because what was once coarse has become commonplace. Only f*** derivatives and racial insults draw much fire.
I disliked Tipper then, but she presumably has grown wiser as have most, except the bigots and sociopaths (the GOP).
snuffy @ 67
Seriously anything that would rid us of this boil on the butt of the country.
The political dialogue changed quite rapidly and now the laggards are trying to play catch-up. I welcome them all, democrat or republican. Pile on. With enough rhetoric the Congress might be emboldened enought to impeach Bush.
Fini FiniTOOBZ! @ 67
Funny (true story) of why I am against censorship and kids (outside of parents). I took my then 3 -4 year old to see Babe (the pig movie). She freaked out when the cat (I think) said that the pig would be turned into bacon. She just started screaming and I had to take her out of the theatre. Since the rest of the family was in watching Water World (the Kevin Costner bad movie) I took her in there where we proceeded to see 1000s of people dieing as ships went down in this blow up film (R rated). She loved it (nothing close up). As we left, one of the ushers saw me bringing her out and yelled at me for taking an underage to that kind of movie, and said she was going to report me to the manager. – My kid is probably pretty typical (she still refuses to watch babe – and to eat pork, beef and lamb).
So, what happens if the D nominee is Hillary, with her complex, carefully parsed war answer, and the R nominee is Hagel, with a simple, consistent anti-war answer?
Hillary’s careful if-then statements are going to look pretty crappy in a Presidential debate against Hagel.
marksb @
40
but …. they’re doing this very cautiously. they’re reluctantly being forced to do this and will switch back in an eyeblink given the opportunity to do so.
Terry McAullife was on the NPR show On Point on Fri, talking up Hillary and trashing John Kerry. Among the many amazing things he said was ….I really wish politicians would stop listening to advisors and focus groups. And that’s what I am telling Hillary to do. Go out there and say what you feel. Have fun with it.
I called in and got on the air. Told him that I was a life-long Dem…well at least since the age of 16 when I stuffed envelopes for Gene McCarthy. I further stated that I was deeply distressed by the Clinton’s continued drift to the Right, and further, that I was very upset she had not taken a principled stand on Iraq. I referred to all the other Senators who renounced their votes. And then I added this zinger ” I have voted for a Republican only once in my life ..Bill Weld.., but I really like what I am hearing our of Chuck Hagel.” Terry had no response.
The call before me and all but one call after mine served to let air out of McAullife’s balloon. (One union guy from RI stated he voted for Bill twice, but found himself deeply offended by his behavior in the Lewinsky affair. He just could not deal with the Clinton’s private business becoming the nation’s business once again. He concluded by saying the Clintons have had their time and now it’s time to move on. McAullife’s response sounded like he had the wind knocked out of him.
Balrog @ 65
“To err is human. . .” But to take forever to acknowledge it is something else; it’s either bad judgment or she’s being disingenuous. Then to argue that someone else has the responsibity for fixing something for which she still shares responsibility is something else again.
If we say, “we don’t care what people said before, or how many times they were wrong before, from this moment on, we’re all even and only the future matters, then we should listen to the neocons again. It means that William Kristol starts with the same credibility as Howard Dean.
cleter @
74
Sorry, but I will have to hold my nose and vote Dem. {Making the sign of the Cross and praying this doesn’t happen.} I think Hagel is doing great stuff by standing up on Iraq, but I don’t trust him beyond that.
Balrog @ 65
Well, yeah, I see your point. Except that the vote wasn’t unanimous. There are some people who had the judgement, at the time, to make the right decision. Shouldn’t they get some credit for having good judgement at a crucial time, over people who voted for the easy political choice? Do we want a leader with some convictions, or not?
I wonder about the value of us ripping each of our least favorite Dem candidates. Each and all are certainly deserving of ripping, but to what end?
I had a friend from Japan who was touring the US on his own. My brother found him in Salt Lake City, and brought him in his ‘76 VW Bus to the Dead shows at Red Rocks in ‘82.
One of the things he said that i will never forget is that Americans say ‘NO!’… Japanese say ‘Yes, But…’
I think a show of unity on all Dem candidates, regardless if our views differ slightly, will make for a stronger set of candidates in ‘08.
Why should we be disqualifying our own people 2 years before the election? Let’s disqualify their people first, then vote for the ones we like.
The rethugs must love our lambasting of the candidates they most fear. It needs to stop, lest we provide comfort to the enemy.
How much of Bush’s “surge” is really a cover for major partners pulling out their troops [Australia? Great Britain?]– has anybody checked lately who’s still left of the “coalition of the willing”?
Joe Biden better get off his ass and convene the Foreign Relations
Committee ASAP into hearing on Iran. Events are moving fast toward
a military confrontation. Just imagine this administration using an
Iran confrontation to ramp up the fear and implement the
Patriot Act full bore. It is of utmost importance to reframe this
entire “war on terror.” There must be a saner approach to this
issue of Islamic terror than the one Bush/Cheney is pursuing.
Democratic-Progressive platforms on these issues need to develop
alternatives and present them as a smarter, saner, safer and will
not threaten the Constitution and our civil liberties. The Patriot
Act needs to be taken apart first in Congressional hearings.
If Bush and Cheney continue to set the agenda in the War on
Terror all we are left doing is protesting without firing shots
across the bow of this regime. The threat of Impeachment must
put fear into both “Bush and Cheney. Pelosi was wrong in taking it
immediately off the table. A wiser course would be to say we are always open to the voice of the American people as we are The House of Representatives–let them arise and speak to us on these issues.
Once again Bush and Cheney don’t give a damn about what we
the people think. What will stop them?
Good to see the muscular pushback. Now if my own
WeathervaneSenator Obama was echoing them we’d now the hurricane had already blown through.I’m with whoever says the candidate probably hasn’t appeared yet. Almost anyone would be better than Clinton or Obama.
Balrog @ 80
Hear, hear!!! The last fracking thing that we need to do is form another circular firing squad. We all call BS on the Publicans when they stay “on message” to the detriment of the country. Don’t let’s us start doing that…
dannyM @
22
Nixon faced an ultimate conviction by the Senate following a certain impeachment by the House for the crime of “suspected conspiracy” to aid and abet people in his administration who attempted to be accessories after the fact to an unauthorized condominium entry. Nixon was pretty far removed from the action, but a crook nonetheless.
Still, Nixon absolutely deserved to be impeached & convicted.
Clinton was impeached because the Republicans thought they might get away with it, not because he did anything that even came into the ballpark of what might be an impeachable offense. In a civil society, what Clinton did should not even have made the newspaper.
Bush, however, has proudly admitted to committing multiple felonies and continues to brag about his felonious violation of the FISA laws, for instance. I could go on all night about the number of crimes (kidnapping/FISA/torture etc.) about which he freely admits; no matter how he characterizes his behavoir, it’s objectively criminal.
There is no dearth of “high crimes and misdemeanors” to hang around Bush’s neck. The House and Senate can prove his guilt by merely reading Bush’s own admissions into the record. “Nothing” is stopping Congress from processing him (and Bad Dick) for their crimes both efficiently, honestly and faster than Congress passed its Terri Schiavo legislation. Nothing other than the same cowardice and hypocrisy that has brought us to this point, that is.
Sure it is a political solution. But only to the extent most politicians in Congress don’t have the political will to serve the Constitution.
slainte,
cl
Balrog @ 64
Perhaps, but I remember hearing on the news that Hans Blix was doing the inspections and was poised to do more inspections when Saddam had agreed to let the UN in to do more inspections. It was all drowned out by the drumbeat of war, ships moving into the gulf, cheerleaders everywhere – Dan Rather included.
If I was smart enough to gleen the truth from my limited perspective and limited knowledge, what was wrong with my democratic representatives?
They were afraid of appearing to be weak, soft on defense, soft on terra. Rove played them like a fiddle.
Let the republicans figure a way out of this mess that they created. There is no easy way. Every way will suck. The responsibility lies with Bush and the republicans. Its their baby. Make them own it.
Richmond @ 73
See this is kind of my point. Parents know what their children can or cannot handle better than a bureaucrat or any other adult for that matter. Your daughter is lucky to have you for a parent.
Marion in Savannah @ 84
Hear, hear!!! The last fracking thing that we need to do is form another circular firing squad. We all call BS on the Publicans when they stay “on message” to the detriment of the country. Don’t let’s us start doing that…
-
Thanks to you Marion.
Richmond @
45
however, there is a good meme here:
Barbara Bush, calling Barabara Bush! Please come to the white courtesy telephone.
Hello?
Babs, why didn’t you teach little fuckwad to clean up after himself?
Caoimhin Laochdha @ 85
I would suggest you replace the words “political will” with the word “balls.” Or, if you prefer, stones or cojones or nads or …. You get the idea…
Balrog @ 80
I assure you, the rethugs do not fear Hillary. My far-right associates ache in their loins for us to nominate Hillary. They long for her like a lost love.
I asked one of them who he was most afraid of, and he said “Feingold. He has integrity. He’s articulate. He scares me.” He was also worried about Clark.
Nobody here lambasts Clark of Feingold. It’s mostly Hillary.
Marion in Savannah @ 84
I couldn’t disagree more with this. I don’t care what the Republicans think about my views of Democratic candidates. And we should be silent about our concerns about Democratic candidates’ positions because we’re afraid of what the Republicans would say? I’m in the wrong place.
Marion in Savannah @ 78
Agreed. “Vote for Hagel, he’s against the war” amounts to single-issue voting, and that’s never a good way of thinking in my experience. Hagel is far too hard-right far too much–let’s not forget, just to throw out an example, that this past week he voted “aye” on a sneak-attack amendment that would have eliminated the federal minimum wage.
From now through the primaries it is time to identify the best possible candidate and give all possible support to that person–not to adopt a pessimistic, single-issue “lesser evil” stance.
fahrender @ 89
Do you really think she ever worried her beautiful mind about whether or not he would ever learn how to take care of his own sh*t?
I like Wes Clark, I’m beginning to warm up to the idea of supporting him. He has said and done some things the last couple of years to impress me. Plus, he “gets” the Netroots better than anyone out there.
Scarecrow @ 92
Your point is well taken. But does it take your eyes off of the prize?
EvilDrPuma @ 93
Oh, I agree. I wasn’t advocating Hagel. I’m just concerned that he would beat Hillary.
JOHN IN CA: Wow I missed friday’s AIPAC Hoyer outburst (guessing while Pelosi was away touring in the ME). HAVE YOU ANY LINKS – Thx…
Oh and progressives note well that 2009 date — gives plently of time for those permanent bases to be built, and oh wasn’t Ms Clinton not interested in stopping funds as well…?
Please progressive think this all through…
Just a thought here… It might be wise to consider the fact that although people like Feingold may be perfectly orthodox for us they have NO, NONE, NOT ANY name recognition in the country at large and, even worse, will be tarred with the “extreme librul” brush. Bear in mind I’m talking from a deeply red state…
Single issue candidacy will not rebuild this country. Hagel will
give us more Rethuggery for another 4 years-same with any
Rethug candidate. We have to demand of the canditates running
to speak their VISION OF AMERICA. We must be critical of
anybody running for President no matter what their party.
Start now to get the formats changed in the debates during the
primaries etc…….. get net-root participation in the questioning
of the candidates.
Scarecrow said:
I couldn’t disagree more with this. I don’t care what the Republicans think about my views of Democratic candidates. And we should be silent about our concerns about Democratic candidates’ positions because we’re afraid of what the Republicans would say? I’m in the wrong place.
FDL is a forum for open communication which is a liberal principle. There aren’t any secrets about Hillary, anyway. Not yet.
Scarecrow @ 92
I’m afraid I’m in scarecrow’s camp on this one. The best thing we can do for the Democratic candidate is by finding the best one available. We didn’t do that in 2000 or 2004, and look where it got us. Honest criticism should be encouraged, not poo-poohed as something that only gives comfort to the enemy.
I’ve finally hit the wall and have to head off to bed. (The alarm clock will howl at me in less than 6 hours…) Sleep well and comforted and warm, pups. I’ll be up early with coffee and tea for anyone who’s up…
But does it take your eyes off of the prize?
It would take a while to describe the “prize” but I assume the question refers to a President with progressive values, a strong respect for the rule of law, a commitment to peaceful resolution of international disputes, a belief in equal justice for all, a respect for the horrors or war, a willingness to use the powers of government to help resolve societal problems and so on. If I believe any Democratic party candidate does not share those core beliefs, then I want to speak out against their candidacy and promote other candidates who share it. Lamont over Lieberman.
Marion in Savannah @ 103
G’nite Marion. Sleep tight.
Marion in Savannah @ 99
That brush will be applied to any candidate, and quite a few will believe it no matter what. It would be applied to Hillary Clinton or Bill Richardson, even though it wouldn’t really fit either one. I think whoever the candidate is, the Democrats are just going to have to figure out how to get around the broadcast news, because it’s not going to work in their favor.
Marion in Savannah @ 99
In 1975, Jimmy Carter had NO name recognition at all. He wasn’t even included in some of the preliminary polls.
And I think the “extreme librul” brush has lost some of it’s sting.
hackworth @ 101
If history is any guide, secrets will be crafted in due time.
Marion in Savannah @ 94
that’s what i’m saying, marion, she never bothered. it would have never occured to her.
How could we have missed the late night thread?
. . . “I am going to level with you, the president has said this is going to be left to his successor,” Clinton said. “I think it is the height of irresponsibility and I really resent it.”
Sounds like somebody already knows the outcome of ‘08.
Scarecrow @
104
A worthy goal. Is it achievable in 08? Hopefully.
If not, what would be the next best result? Continued majorities in both parties, IMO.
So maybe what I mean to say is ‘Keep your eyes on any prize attainable!’
cleter @ 79
I prefer conviction and brains.
And many of the votes “for” the authorization for the use of force were votes by scared Democrats who knew better but chose expedient “safety” over conviction.
Regardless of whether we stop “busting” people who showed unbelievably horrible judgment when their time came to make a money shot, we need to start being honest about the quality of pre-war intelligence. It’s time to frame the issue honestly and accurately. The entire bullshit about “we relied on poor intelligence” is not and never has been true.
The fact is we had perfectly accurate intelligence — and many people here looked over it because NONE of it was classified. There was overwhelming data: human, factual, historical etc. not to mention photos with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one . . . that unequivocally showed that Iraq was no threat to the U.S. Conversely, there was no credible intelligence anywhere that suggested Iraq, was a threat to the U.S. Seriously, you did not need to work at the CIA to know this stuff. Anyone who took the time to review any of the operative/material information easily available to us and readily available to members of congress, knew Iraq was never a threat to the U.S.
Yes there was cooked analysis of the intelligence to justify the war, but there was no “failure of intelligence.” There was a deliberate publishing of false analysis of intelligence, that’s all. A few people lying about the facts available to anyone who cared to look.
With no intelligence suggesting that Iraq was a threat, Bush changed the question to whether Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. Again, so what? Many more dangerous and capable countries (most without oil) have better armies, better weapons of mass destruction, and far more WMDs than Iraq was alleged to have. Those other countries (Pakistan, Korea, unsecured nuclear material in Russia for that matter, Iran to name just a few) were not — and some are still not admitted to be — “threats” to the U.S.
The entire “bad intelligence” argument is a continuing fraud and a cop-out by people who don’t want to accept responsibility for their votes. I will listen to “I f’cked up and used poor judgment and I’ve learned from my mistake because. . . ” relative to a pro-war vote. I will NEVER accept “I relied on bad intelligence.” The former argument is just not true.
cl
Marion in Savannah @ 90
Pick your idiom. Couldn’t agree more.
cl
cleter @ 97
i don’t know much about hagel but he could be the one republicans will rally around. and he could be formidable. he knows how to talk and he has an aura of seriousness. almost anybody who’s not an idiot or batshite crazy will look good after fuckwad and cheney. i don’t like hagel’s politics other than his criticisms of fuckwad’s iraq “plan”. republican voters will.
balrog, i’m afraid it will not be possible for progressive democrats to support hillary. with her baggage and tone deafness she can lose the election but not win it. the democrats can well lose in ‘08 if they are not careful. we’re going to have to do some serious candidate and platform building to win the big one
I hardly think the GOP will be scouring liberal blogs for new ammo to hit Hillary with. They own the ammo depot.
I’m with Hackworth, et al. We should put prime focus on derailing McCain because of simple electoral math. Giuliani can’t even guarantee carrying his home state.
But we do need to address those, like Hillary, still waffling on the war. Moreover, her botch of healthcare when polls back then said 65% supported it. It’s not a single issue that causes my opposition, just the two most important issues (to me) in the past decade.
I’ve handicapped political races a long time. I’m certain when the primaries come, she’ll be one of the two strongest contenders.
And there’s only one way she can win the primaries: keeping the liberal wing split between two or more more progressive contenders.
cleter @ 107
don’t know about current “extreme librul” negatives now but i think the Carter phenomena scenarios are a thing of the past. this is now. it ain’t 1975 and never will be again.
off to work now. burnin’ daylight …..
I know there is a lot of sentiment around here against hillary. But I would like to speak up for her.
The other day in Iowa, hillary said that if someone hits her…she is going to deck them. Of course the msm immediately crowned her the bitch of all times.
But I would like to point out that her statement is EXACTLY what we’ve all been calling for from the Dems for the last 6 years. “Hit ‘em back hard” we say. And Joe Biden or someone else introduces a resolution expressing disappointment in the repubs’ actions. And we Dems out here in the blogosphere go frickin nuts because we want someone to smack the repubs right back. But nobody does it. And we fume.
But Hillary comes right out and says what we’ve all been saying for years: If they hit us, we deck them”. We should all stand up and cheer her for smacking them back in the face — just like we’ve been demanding.
And to top it off — I reckon we would all pretty much agree that Hillary is a fucking %$#& (hereinafter referred to as a “cat”, since the other word is so highly offensive). But isn’t that exactly WHAT we want to fight back the repubs starting in 2008 – a real fucking CAT?????
She could have Obama as her running mate – wouldn’t that be a hell of a ticket – first woman AND first black? And Obama could get a shitload of experience as VP for 4-8 years, ensuring his Presidency at some future time. Let Obama do all the coaltion-building with moderate repubs, etc. Let Hillary destroy the neocon movement once and for all.
Just because the Dems win the WH, and just because the Dems control the Congress, doesn’t mean that the neocon movement is going to just dry up and blow away. They will go underground and regroup and come back again some day. Unless they are destroyed now. For the good of the country. And I believe that Hillary is just the “CAT” to get that job done.
Wes could be SecDef, Edwards anywhere he want in the Cabinet, Dodd SecState, Spitzer as Atty Genl, Fitz continues as Special Counsel for coordinating all high level political investigations – Plame, Abramhoff, Mitchell, Delay, etc. Oh, and Bill Clinton as Special At Large Envoy to the President for International Affairs. He’s the guy who cleans up the shit on the international stage.
And bring some moderate repubs into the cabinet also. Make it a real coalition government – of moderates and progressives.
Hillary – kicking ass and taking names.
Thoughts or reactions???
[Mod Note; some words are better left untyped, OK?]
clueless @ 118
I dont think shecat would have the same taste in progressives as you…she helped gurnyjoe in the crunch
Fini Fini #49
Thank you for clarifying and if I had been your age at that time I too would have been outraged. As it happens I was a young mother of two girls and a little boy at that time whose daddy had mercifully survived Viet Nam. I’m just sayin’ if he could understand and forgive Jane Fonda I would hope your generation could move on and understand and forgive a young mother named Tipper. Peace & Love.
COMMENT #4 — HEY, HEADS UP, GUITAR PLAYING BASTARD. HOW’D YOU KNOW I AM ALL OF WHAT YOU CHOOSE TO PUT ON YOUR BANNER? LOL / I BE OFF HERE IN FORT WORTHLESS TEXAS, RETIRED FROM TRUCK DRIVING ETC. I STARTED READING POLITICAL BLOGS AND THIS ONE HAS THE PANCAKES, SOME SYRUP, AND THE COFFEE ON ALL THE TIME. THE REPUBLICANS ARE RUNNING ON RECAPPED TIRES AND I KEEP HOPING FOR THE BLOWOUTS. FOR SURE THE DEMS HAVE NOT CHANGED OIL LIKE I THOUGHT ID SEE. YET. MAYBE THEY CAN OVER INFLATE THE TIRES? YA THINK? –
Clueless,
Rather than destroy the neocons,I think her mere presence in the White House will embolden them even more. They joined forces against Bill. He was their target and their hatred for him helped them to further mobilize. If Hillary wins, I am afraid this polarization will solidify and kill us.
I guess I am hoping against hope that Gore will step in. Does anyone have any thoughts on how likely that scenario might be.
I am having fantasies about him announcing his intention to run when he picks up his Academy Award.
kindly refrain from sullying fdl by posting photographs the neocon thug, mrs. clinton.
I heard Richard Clark say that
“Bush lacks the balls to end the Iraq occupation.”
That is really good framing.
Count me as someone who would never vote for Hillary. She sold out to the Neocons three years ago…who is to say she would not do so again when they demand military action against Iran. She’s owned by the campaign contributors.
Late to the party, but I wouldn’t vote for Hillary either. That’s what write-ins are for. I can’t abide the thought of 4/8 more years of Clintons. I think their advisors (McAuliffe, etc.) had the time of their professional lives during Bill’s presidency, and naturally they want to reinstitute the monarchy. (The Clinton Group, the Carlyle Group, etc…)
The fact that HRC and Obama wouldn’t even acknowledge each other while 3 feet apart at the SOTU tells us everything. She’s out for the kill. The ‘conversation’ she’s starting would be riveting if she just told the truth about this, instead of giving us the Potemkin Campaign. If Mr. Rogers were still alive, she’d invite him in for a chat…As you can tell, I’ve had it with the manipulative nonsense. I still remember Hillary trying to wear a headband in 92′, and talking about baking cookies.